Author Topic: Electric car if you move a lot?  (Read 1683 times)

Villanelle

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Electric car if you move a lot?
« on: November 24, 2020, 03:29:29 PM »
We will likely be moving soon.  Husband is military, so we tend to move a lot.  If the next location turns out to be what we hope, we will need a second car.  Living in a walkable area isn't an option unless he has a very long commute.

So, I'm starting to research cars (in part to assuage my anxiety while we wait for a final answer on where and when).  I really like the idea of an electric car as a second vehicle.  But my issue is this--at our current location, there would be no way to charge it.  We live in a townhouse, right on the sidewalk, with only on-street parking.  Our next possible location is the burbs, but after that, we have no way of knowing.  We tend to keep cars for 10+ years. 

Ideally, we aren't burb people.  We are townhouse-near-main-street, or maybe even high-rise-in-the-big-city people.  (Though I recognize with that latter that some options might have charging available.)  But we have very little choice in where we go, so some place essentially necessitate the burbs. 

So, what are mustachian thoughts on the matter?  Is it worth taking into account that we might live in a place where an EV doesn't really work well? 

Cranky

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Re: Electric car if you move a lot?
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2020, 03:45:32 PM »
Are there public charging stations available?

Where I live now, there are not. I’d need to install a charger.
Where we are moving, there are chargers at grocery stores and businesses.

Villanelle

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Re: Electric car if you move a lot?
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2020, 05:14:15 PM »
Are there public charging stations available?

Where I live now, there are not. I’d need to install a charger.
Where we are moving, there are chargers at grocery stores and businesses.

I don't know because I'm talking about a nebulous "could be anywhere" situation.  But I wouldn't want to have to drive to a grocery store once or twice a week to charge my car. 

bacchi

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Re: Electric car if you move a lot?
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2020, 05:22:57 PM »
Are you thinking a used Leaf for cheap? If the next move after this one doesn't work for an electric car, you could sell it and not take too big of a hit.

Maybe a plug-in hybrid is a better choice?

But I definitely wouldn't buy an expensive electric given the potential for selling it in a few years.

Villanelle

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Re: Electric car if you move a lot?
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2020, 05:30:16 PM »
Are you thinking a used Leaf for cheap? If the next move after this one doesn't work for an electric car, you could sell it and not take too big of a hit.

Maybe a plug-in hybrid is a better choice?

But I definitely wouldn't buy an expensive electric given the potential for selling it in a few years.

I'm not quite sure what I'm thinking.  Still very early stages.  But I'm not going to go out and buy a new Tesla, certainly!  I like small, cheap cars. 

Spiritwalker2222

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Re: Electric car if you move a lot?
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2020, 07:42:17 PM »
I would not buy an electric car if you move often. When you move to a new place you will probably not have a 220V hookup for the car. It's not worth it to get 220V installed every couple of years. And if you rent, well your out of luck.

Also, I would only get an electric car as the primary vehicle. If you don't use it much you are not saving enough in gas to offset the price increase and the impact on the environment due to the heavy metals.

Full disclosure, I have a Kia Niro PHEV.

Paper Chaser

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Re: Electric car if you move a lot?
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2020, 02:59:19 AM »
With so much uncertainty in your next few years, I'd think the flexibility of a PHEV would be a great fit. A PHEV will typically fully charge over night from a standard 110 outlet, could use faster public chargers whenever available, and obviously has the ICE if charging isn't available right then/there or you go on a longer trip.

You can find nice used PHEVs for pretty reasonable prices. A Chevy Volt, Ford CMAX Energi or Fusion Energi, etc are widely available for under $15k with low miles and any of them would be able to do the majority of most people's driving in full EV mode.

Villanelle

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Re: Electric car if you move a lot?
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2020, 10:08:31 AM »
I would not buy an electric car if you move often. When you move to a new place you will probably not have a 220V hookup for the car. It's not worth it to get 220V installed every couple of years. And if you rent, well your out of luck.

Also, I would only get an electric car as the primary vehicle. If you don't use it much you are not saving enough in gas to offset the price increase and the impact on the environment due to the heavy metals.

Full disclosure, I have a Kia Niro PHEV.

How does this work?  If I drive not a lot, for many years, isn't it about the same as driving a lot for a few years?  To put this in perspective, I sold my 2000 Toyota Echo in 2019.

Also, dumb question.  Like I said, I'm juuust starting to research this... You make it sound like one must have a 220v outlet to charge.  Is that the case? It was my understanding that one could use a standard 110 outlet; it just takes longer to charge.  A longer charging time seems like it would be fine.  Plug it in overnight. 

Spiritwalker2222

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Re: Electric car if you move a lot?
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2020, 10:33:32 AM »
I would not buy an electric car if you move often. When you move to a new place you will probably not have a 220V hookup for the car. It's not worth it to get 220V installed every couple of years. And if you rent, well your out of luck.

Also, I would only get an electric car as the primary vehicle. If you don't use it much you are not saving enough in gas to offset the price increase and the impact on the environment due to the heavy metals.

Full disclosure, I have a Kia Niro PHEV.

How does this work?  If I drive not a lot, for many years, isn't it about the same as driving a lot for a few years?  To put this in perspective, I sold my 2000 Toyota Echo in 2019.

Also, dumb question.  Like I said, I'm juuust starting to research this... You make it sound like one must have a 220v outlet to charge.  Is that the case? It was my understanding that one could use a standard 110 outlet; it just takes longer to charge.  A longer charging time seems like it would be fine.  Plug it in overnight.

habanero

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Re: Electric car if you move a lot?
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2020, 11:43:02 AM »
Also, dumb question.  Like I said, I'm juuust starting to research this... You make it sound like one must have a 220v outlet to charge.  Is that the case? It was my understanding that one could use a standard 110 outlet; it just takes longer to charge.  A longer charging time seems like it would be fine.  Plug it in overnight.

For a car used for short trips you don't need much in terms of charging power, you'd even be fine if longer trips are rare and you can plan in advance. As long as the car can charge on 110V you should be fine. I charge mine on 230V (standard here) but I only use 7A current, that's the equivalent of roughly 15 Amps at 110V. This has worked for me in almost 6 years and it's the family's only car - albeit with a large battery (Tesla).

I would claim that you (almost) definatly  need a reliable place to charge where the car spends most of its time parked, which usually means at home. Or at work if it's a commuter car. I would never own an EV without "my own" spot to charge.

nereo

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Re: Electric car if you move a lot?
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2020, 11:52:29 AM »
We've been in a similar situation as you - we keep moving and while we want to go full EV we worry we won't have reliable (home) charging in our next location.

Agree with Paper Chaser that a PEHV might be the best solution for you, but I'll add an additional reason why I like them:  Unlike full-on BEVs, they require only about 1/5th the battery capacity, which means 1/5th the heavy metals and rare-earth metals which are enviornmentally problematic.  BUT... with a PEHV (and a place to charge it) most people wind up in battery-only for ~80% of their driving needs. 

Put another way, you get an 80% reduction in gasoline consumption but with 1/5th the battery size of most BEVs.  To me that's the best compromise - particularly if you aren't relatively sure you will have charging in your next locale (if that happens your car will still function as a normal ICE - albeit with great fuel economy).  See Syonyk's incredibly detailed analysis of the Volt for more info.

Paper Chaser

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Re: Electric car if you move a lot?
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2020, 12:24:03 PM »
I would not buy an electric car if you move often. When you move to a new place you will probably not have a 220V hookup for the car. It's not worth it to get 220V installed every couple of years. And if you rent, well your out of luck.

Also, I would only get an electric car as the primary vehicle. If you don't use it much you are not saving enough in gas to offset the price increase and the impact on the environment due to the heavy metals.

Full disclosure, I have a Kia Niro PHEV.

How does this work?  If I drive not a lot, for many years, isn't it about the same as driving a lot for a few years?  To put this in perspective, I sold my 2000 Toyota Echo in 2019.

Also, dumb question.  Like I said, I'm juuust starting to research this... You make it sound like one must have a 220v outlet to charge.  Is that the case? It was my understanding that one could use a standard 110 outlet; it just takes longer to charge.  A longer charging time seems like it would be fine.  Plug it in overnight.

EVs often have higher purchase prices than comparable ICE vehicles. That difference can be offset eventually through lower cost per mile, but it takes miles driven to reach that break even point. The more you drive, the sooner you're beyond the break even point. This is less problematic on the used market or with PHEVs because the price difference is lower, but it still holds true to some extent.

As for charging, a Level 1 charger (120V outlet) works just fine, but it's slow. It probably adds a bit more than 1kwh of electricity (which often equates to 3-4 miles of driving range) per hour of charging time. That's fine for a PHEV that probably has under 50 miles of EV range, but it means that it would take like 2 full days to charge something like a Tesla with 75+ kwh battery from "empty" all the way to "full". If you drive long trips of 50+ miles pretty often, a Level 2 charger with 240v is almost a "must have". But if you drive under 50 miles per day, that's easy for most people to replenish overnight on a Level 1 charger whether you're charging a PHEV or a full BEV.

But if you drive less than 50 miles per day, do you really need a vehicle with hundreds of miles of EV range? Nereo makes a good point about unused battery capacity and the environmental viability of a PHEV in that regard. Just like the financial cost of EVs taking many miles to break even vs an ICE, the same is true for the environmental costs (including manufacturing). If we wanted to get the most environmental "bang for our buck" as a society from the raw materials available to us, putting out 4-6 PHEVs that use 100% of their 15kwh battery every day would have far better environmental impacts than putting those elements into a single big battery pack for a single EV that only uses 10% of that battery capacity every day. So getting a pure EV that mostly just sits unused or is only driven a couple thousand miles per year is going to take a very long time to see the environmental payoff and the financial payoff.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2020, 12:28:04 PM by Paper Chaser »

Malcat

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Re: Electric car if you move a lot?
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2020, 06:57:21 AM »
I think you've answered your own question.

It's really not practical, and some homes don't have the infrastructure to plug in your car overnight. My last five homes haven't.

Current home: indoor parking garage, there are some outlets, but that's a shared resource and can't be use extensively for one person's car. We actually have a car charging station in our visitors parking, but it's frequently in use, I would not be able to rely upon it being available when I need it.

Last condo: the complex had a parking lot. Each spot had an outlet but those outlets could only be used for block heaters, vacuums, etc. Not for car charging since again, that was a shared resource, each outlet wasn't tied to the electric bill for our individual units. They're working on a solution for this, but it wasn't resolved before I moved, and was the reason I didn't buy an electric car when I was living there.

Apartment before that: I lived on the 3rd floor of an old house. There were outlets outside, but they were connected to the account of the renters on the main floor.

Condo before that: another heated indoor parking garage.

Apartment before that: second floor of a house, same problem as the third floor unit previously.

Condo before that: another complex with a separate parking lot, no outlets at this one

In some regions, laws are coming down that are mandating accomodation for electric cars, but if you are moving jurisdictions, you can't count on this.

If you're not even driving much, I just don't see a significant benefit here.

Villanelle

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Re: Electric car if you move a lot?
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2020, 09:57:07 AM »
I think you've answered your own question.

It's really not practical, and some homes don't have the infrastructure to plug in your car overnight. My last five homes haven't.

Current home: indoor parking garage, there are some outlets, but that's a shared resource and can't be use extensively for one person's car. We actually have a car charging station in our visitors parking, but it's frequently in use, I would not be able to rely upon it being available when I need it.

Last condo: the complex had a parking lot. Each spot had an outlet but those outlets could only be used for block heaters, vacuums, etc. Not for car charging since again, that was a shared resource, each outlet wasn't tied to the electric bill for our individual units. They're working on a solution for this, but it wasn't resolved before I moved, and was the reason I didn't buy an electric car when I was living there.

Apartment before that: I lived on the 3rd floor of an old house. There were outlets outside, but they were connected to the account of the renters on the main floor.

Condo before that: another heated indoor parking garage.

Apartment before that: second floor of a house, same problem as the third floor unit previously.

Condo before that: another complex with a separate parking lot, no outlets at this one

In some regions, laws are coming down that are mandating accomodation for electric cars, but if you are moving jurisdictions, you can't count on this.

If you're not even driving much, I just don't see a significant benefit here.

I feel like I'm missing something, as this bolded sentiment has been posted several times, and I don't get it.

Does it matter if I drive the car 75,000 in three years or ten?  Isn't the savings essentially the same? I suppose theres a slight opportunity cost for the higher purchase price up front, but that's not a huge amount given that I'd by a used moderate EV.

 (I'm not being argumentative.  I'm truly not getting it and trying to see what I'm missing.)

habanero

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Re: Electric car if you move a lot?
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2020, 10:26:58 AM »

I feel like I'm missing something, as this bolded sentiment has been posted several times, and I don't get it.

Does it matter if I drive the car 75,000 in three years or ten?  Isn't the savings essentially the same? I suppose theres a slight opportunity cost for the higher purchase price up front, but that's not a huge amount given that I'd by a used moderate EV.

 (I'm not being argumentative.  I'm truly not getting it and trying to see what I'm missing.)

You could, per the underlying logic of this forum,for example argue that your increased up-front over 10 years could compound to an amount outweighing your per mile savings cost of the car with few miles driven annually. Also, a 10-15 year old electric car might be close to irrelevant and has no real secondary market value despite covering your personal transport needs and its usability will diminish with decreased battery capacity. We still have 1st gen electric cars running on our streets btw, hardly anyone will buy those, but they do move and transport their owners (Google buddy electric car to see what Im talking about).

Im all for electric cars and I drive one myself. Our incentives are so big it (almost) makes sense to buy a new Tesla as they are exempt from all of our generally pretty heavy car taxes and even the 25% VAT generally levied on everything. In the US the maths, given the relative cheapness of ICEs, look pretty different. We also have cheap electricity and very expensive gas btw.

And given the volatility of your housing situation you are also exposed to various infrastructure. Getting an outlet installed to charge your car in a garage complex might be expensive or even impossible. It's not like any outlet will do, charging an EV requires quite a lot of power and common parking grounds are generally only dimenstioned for low-power stuff like maybe having a pre-heater or whatever. Charging an EV is an entirely different business as it draws pretty much power for hours and hours.


Paper Chaser

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Re: Electric car if you move a lot?
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2020, 11:27:40 AM »


If you're not even driving much, I just don't see a significant benefit here.

I feel like I'm missing something, as this bolded sentiment has been posted several times, and I don't get it.

Does it matter if I drive the car 75,000 in three years or ten?  Isn't the savings essentially the same? I suppose theres a slight opportunity cost for the higher purchase price up front, but that's not a huge amount given that I'd by a used moderate EV.

 (I'm not being argumentative.  I'm truly not getting it and trying to see what I'm missing.)

I think the crux of the argument comes down to cost per mile. But that is incredibly location specific. Electrical rates and the price of fuel vary a ton depending on location. For example, my friends that live 4 houses away (maybe 150 yards) have a different electrical utility, and different rates than I do. Now expand that across the entire US.
If you were reliant on public charging, that can rival or even exceed the cost per mile of a reasonablly fuel efficient ICE. In other places with high fuel costs, that may not be true though. 87octane is $1.84/gallon near me at the moment. The only way an EV is cost competitive with that is if I charge at home andmy electrical rates are also low.

Without knowing typical fuel prices and very specific electrical rates, it's hard to do the math to see if an EV makes sense or not compared to an ICE. And since you don't know where you'll end up, and are likely to move from that location again in a few years, we can't say definitively if an EV makes more or less sense than a comparable ICE. That's why some of us suggested a PHEV. It gives you the flexibility to choose your fuel type when you have multiple options, and defaults to widely available gasoline propulsion if charging isn't an option, isn't financially viable, or is simply more convenient than charging.

The other big advantage of EVs over ICEs is reduced maintenance, but the less you drive, the less often maintenance would come up for either vehicle. Let's say you drive 7500 miles per year (based on your 75000 miles in 10 years example). If an ICE requires a $50 oil change every 5000 miles that means you'd pay $75/yr, or you'd be saving $75/yr with an EV. If you drive 75000 miles in 3 years, that would be 5 oil changes per year ($250), so the EV saves you a bunch more relative to the ICE.

Also, many states already charge more each year to register an EV or PHEV to make up for paying less in fuel taxes. That trend is only increasing to more and more states. In some cases it can be over $100 more per year to register an EV than an ICE which can really hurt the financial comparison for the EV. Particularly if you don't have large savings in maintenance or fuel/electrons consumed because you're not driving very many miles. For example, If you had to pay $100/yr more to register an EV vs an ICE that gets 40mpg and costs $2/gal, the extra registration fee alone would equal the cost of driving 2000 miles in the ICE.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2020, 11:29:43 AM by Paper Chaser »

Malcat

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Re: Electric car if you move a lot?
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2020, 11:26:07 AM »
I think you've answered your own question.

It's really not practical, and some homes don't have the infrastructure to plug in your car overnight. My last five homes haven't.

Current home: indoor parking garage, there are some outlets, but that's a shared resource and can't be use extensively for one person's car. We actually have a car charging station in our visitors parking, but it's frequently in use, I would not be able to rely upon it being available when I need it.

Last condo: the complex had a parking lot. Each spot had an outlet but those outlets could only be used for block heaters, vacuums, etc. Not for car charging since again, that was a shared resource, each outlet wasn't tied to the electric bill for our individual units. They're working on a solution for this, but it wasn't resolved before I moved, and was the reason I didn't buy an electric car when I was living there.

Apartment before that: I lived on the 3rd floor of an old house. There were outlets outside, but they were connected to the account of the renters on the main floor.

Condo before that: another heated indoor parking garage.

Apartment before that: second floor of a house, same problem as the third floor unit previously.

Condo before that: another complex with a separate parking lot, no outlets at this one

In some regions, laws are coming down that are mandating accomodation for electric cars, but if you are moving jurisdictions, you can't count on this.

If you're not even driving much, I just don't see a significant benefit here.

I feel like I'm missing something, as this bolded sentiment has been posted several times, and I don't get it.

Does it matter if I drive the car 75,000 in three years or ten?  Isn't the savings essentially the same? I suppose theres a slight opportunity cost for the higher purchase price up front, but that's not a huge amount given that I'd by a used moderate EV.

 (I'm not being argumentative.  I'm truly not getting it and trying to see what I'm missing.)

If you have an ICE vehicle and barely drive it, then the environmental and cost benefit are small. If someone is talking about commuting a few hours a day, then based on their values, they may be willing to only look at housing options that accommodate an electric car.

For me, I drive so little that I was okay buying a condo that currently can't support me owning an electric car. If I drove more, I would have had to weigh my options more.

My comment was more on how having an electric car may limit their housing options.

That's said, the magnitude of any benefit has to be weighed against the costs, whatever they be. In this case, if likely to live in any kind of apartment or condo complex, the risk of housing limitations has a large magnitude, so the magnitude of benefits needs to exceed that.

If it's a homeowner with easy access to power deciding between two cars and the only cost is a small financial difference up front, then sure, the volume of use doesn't have much impact, so the magnitude of benefit doesn't need to overcome much.

nereo

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Re: Electric car if you move a lot?
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2020, 11:44:23 AM »
Anecdote:  At my previous job (an environmentally-focused not-for-profit) there was a heated discussion between the facilities manager and a couple of the more die-hard environmental employees that drove BEVs.  Facilities guy drove a StupidTruck™ but lived nearby, in-town.  He drove about 4K miles a year in StupidTruck™.   Almost everyone else drove from nearby city which required a 20mile commute, resulting in ~20k miles per year in GreenCar™.

I begrudgingly had to accept his argument that his environmental and financial footprint of StupidTruck™ was less than those driving GreenCar™s everywhere.  He even had a point that “if I sold StupidTruck™, it would be to someone who would use it a hell of a lot more, and pollute more, and probably not take as good care of it, whereas I’ll probably have it until I retire [in a couple decades] or until I can’t find diesel to fill it with, whichever comes first”


Villanelle

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Re: Electric car if you move a lot?
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2020, 02:20:15 PM »
Anecdote:  At my previous job (an environmentally-focused not-for-profit) there was a heated discussion between the facilities manager and a couple of the more die-hard environmental employees that drove BEVs.  Facilities guy drove a StupidTruck™ but lived nearby, in-town.  He drove about 4K miles a year in StupidTruck™.   Almost everyone else drove from nearby city which required a 20mile commute, resulting in ~20k miles per year in GreenCar™.

I begrudgingly had to accept his argument that his environmental and financial footprint of StupidTruck™ was less than those driving GreenCar™s everywhere. He even had a point that “if I sold StupidTruck™, it would be to someone who would use it a hell of a lot more, and pollute more, and probably not take as good care of it, whereas I’ll probably have it until I retire [in a couple decades] or until I can’t find diesel to fill it with, whichever comes first”

True, but in my case it's not StupidTruck at 5k or GreenCar at 20k.  I wouldn't drive more or less based on the type of car.   (I'd also get get a StupidTruck, regardless.  If a get an ICE, it would likely be a Fit, or similar small car.  Maybe even a Yaris instead.)

I think this thread has talked me out of an EV, though I might still consider a PHEV. 

Now if the Navy would just tell me where we are going.  Because if it's Spain or Bahrain, I will need to be asking different vehicle questions!

freedomfightergal

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Re: Electric car if you move a lot?
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2020, 06:03:56 PM »
I really love my Chevy Volt & it may be perfect for your situation as it runs as EV or Gas.  It has a battery pack that will get you 60ish miles on pure EV and then another 360 miles on Gas.  It's an either or fuel source.  So I use the Electric system for all my day to day travel and use Gas when we go on long road trips.  I've also used public chargers which are free when it works out well - say stopping for lunch on a road trip.  I put in the special outlet (same as dryer) in garage and bought a fast charger from Amazon for about $120 and it charges within a few hours. 

I bought the car from a dealer as used for about $27k and it has saved me about $2.5k a year in Gas costs, zero maintenance so far, I'm very happy with it.

Sold as 53 mile electric - but if you drive using the Regen brake mostly I get 63 miles & total cruising range with Gas added on top is 420, but you can squeeze out more if you Regen & glide as it puts power back into the battery.

I've heard some people don't even plug their car in & just drive it as a gas car - it's very efficient gas wise too if you're stuck with that for a bit.  I find it comfortable, handles well & we've packed a lot of stuff into it when necessary.  The only neg would be if you're in a very snowy area or have a huge family.


Anyway good luck with your choice!

Ecky

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Re: Electric car if you move a lot?
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2020, 06:35:41 PM »
On paper, I feel a used Ioniq plug-in is arguably the best PHEV deal right now. 30 miles on electricity, 50-60mpg on gasoline (vs 40mpg in a Volt), 4 doors, a useful hatch, and they depreciate SHARPLY compared with Honda and Toyota's offerings, so you can get one a couple of years old and with low miles for around $10,000.

lutorm

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Re: Electric car if you move a lot?
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2020, 11:50:00 PM »
I've been super happy with out Pacifica PHEV minivan. But if we couldn't charge it at home (from our solar!) it would just be a slightly more efficient minivan. The battery range of just over 30 miles (nominal) is about perfect for our needs, we never use gas around town and we didn't pay for a bunch of battery capacity we only use when going out of town.

In my mind, a full-on BEV with hundreds of miles range only makes sense if you use that range basically daily. To have a Tesla to drive around town and only go on a couple long trips per year just means you paid for a huge battery capacity for nothing. If you calculate the cost per mile for that battery over the long trip miles, it must be enormous.  The cost differential between gas and electricity in the US isn't very favorable for EVs, so I'm betting it would be economically advantageous to use gas for those trips instead.

And to the extent that batteries are a finite resource at the moment, you're also hogging capacity that could have gone into making several hybrids instead.

I definitely think that BEVs are the future, but I don't think they make rational sense for everyone now, at least in the US. It's probably different in Europe where gas is much more expensive.


Villanelle

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Re: Electric car if you move a lot?
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2020, 02:53:31 PM »
On paper, I feel a used Ioniq plug-in is arguably the best PHEV deal right now. 30 miles on electricity, 50-60mpg on gasoline (vs 40mpg in a Volt), 4 doors, a useful hatch, and they depreciate SHARPLY compared with Honda and Toyota's offerings, so you can get one a couple of years old and with low miles for around $10,000.

I've done very little research since the original post, but what I have done has pointed me in this direction.  Still no decisions (and still no final word on our location), but this is on the short list.  I also need to do the math to make sure that the tax credit  doesn't offset the depreciation benefit of buying used.