The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: Kaplin261 on September 23, 2015, 10:20:55 AM
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My current grocery bill average for 2 adults and a toddler is $160 a week. It is a little high and we could probably do better, we both work full time and really enjoy good food. Currently we do not eat out, to us eating at a restaurant is a financial sin and the 22 month old who throws his food at other patrons when he gets bored insures we stick to our plan of not eating out.
My wife and I are planning to move to be closer to work. A lot of the homes in the area are dated and need kitchen remodels or expansions to meet our needs. I started adding up the costs of whats involved for a average kitchen, the sqft it consumes in the home, the cost to condition the space, the electricity it uses when being used. It turns out that cooking a meal at home is a lot more then just the cost of the groceries I'm buying each week.
$30k for a complete kitchen remodel plus the cost of 150 sqft dedicated for cooking
$250 a year in energy used by the appliances(doesn't include the cost for lighting and conditioning the air)
$500 a year in for building maintenance for that extra 150 sqft used(roof,siding,flooring,plumbing,electrical)
So if I'm ditching the kitchen might as well eliminate that dining room as well 150 sqft x $150=$22500
$52500x.07/52=$70 extra bucks added to the eating at home weekly bill plus an additional weekly cost of $13 for energy/maintenance for the kitchen
Bigger roof,bigger heating/cooling system,more painting,more flooring,more taxes,more insurance are all costs associated with having a kitchen and dining room.
I will probably never go this route, I love cooking at home but to say its cheaper then eating out at a restaurant is not exactly true.
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You missed the time, energy, and vehicle wear cost of going out to eat three times a day.
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And, the cost of tax and tips on food over time.
Or, home upgrades increasing the value of the house over time.
$250 for a few appliances and $500 in maintenance costs? Sounds like too much house, our yearly power usages adds up to $650 and maintaining the kitchen includes soap and water.
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You don't need a $30k kitchen remodel to cook.
That's like saying it's cheaper to take a taxi to work than buy a car, because a new Land Rover Range Rover is $199,495 and buying a new one every three years is expensive. :P
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Lol, that's all I could muster in response to the OP.
Sounds like a whole lot of justification and bias.
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Eeek...don't forget to build in all the costs of copays, medication, and buying-of new clothes associated with the wild weight-gain you'd certainly experience with frequent eating-out!
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What is so wrong with the kitchen that it needs $30k worth of remodeling? Are you ripping it to the studs to start over because it looks "dated"?
If there is a kitchen already there. And people have already been using it for years. It seems like it shouldn't require $30k to be updated to whatever standards you need to cook.
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You don't need a $30k kitchen remodel to cook.
That's like saying it's cheaper to take a taxi to work than buy a car, because a new Land Rover Range Rover is $199,495 and buying a new one every three years is expensive. :P
Sorry I didn't break it down, the $30k is for the sqft cost of the kitchen space 150x$150 per sqft plus the remodel cost. So its only $7,750 for the remodel and $23k is for the 150 sqft to house your kitchen.
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Unless I'm missing something, even those additional costs only bring the total up to $243 per week. With 21 meals a week for two people (I'm assuming the toddler will eat only from what you order), you are still eating at home for $5.79 per meal. There are certainly places you can buy a meal from for that much, but I doubt those places measure up to what you are cooking at home or are even attractive to someone who says they "really enjoy good food".
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Good luck selling a house without a kitchen. Might work in Manhattan, which is one of the few places in the world where it really does cost considerably more to cook at home than eat out (extremely high grocery cost and lots of low cost ethnic food options, most that deliver).
You could sell it to this guy!
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/08/op-ed-how-i-gave-up-alternating-current/
Kitchens are expensive and dirty. This home manufacturing center has been by far the most liberating to eliminate. They are the greediest consumers of power, water, and labor and produce the most noise and garbage of any room. Moreover, they can be made totally unnecessary with a few practical life hacks.
...
With no fridge, no dishes, no microwave, no oven, no range, no dishwasher, no utensils, no pests, no cleaning products nor dirty rags, my life is considerably simpler, lighter and cleaner than before. I think it was a bit presumptuous for the architect to assume I wanted a kitchen with my apartment and make me pay for it. My home is a place of peace. I don’t want to live with red-hot heating elements and razor-sharp knives. That sounds like a torture chamber. However, it’s not a total loss. I was able to use the cabinets to store part of my book collection.
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Unless I'm missing something, even those additional costs only bring the total up to $243 per week. With 21 meals a week for two people (I'm assuming the toddler will eat only from what you order), you are still eating at home for $5.79 per meal. There are certainly places you can buy a meal from for that much, but I doubt those places measure up to what you are cooking at home or are even attractive to someone who says they "really enjoy good food".
Monday-Friday $105
Breakfast is a granola bar,banana and another piece of fruit - $1 per person and 400 calories each
Lunch is a 1 pound of salad from the salad bar at $4.99 a pound. Lots of greens,nuts and dried fruit - $5 per person and 500 calories (lunch is provided at school for $3 for our son)
Dinner options: Subway foot long $6 per adult,taco Tuesday tacos $5 per adult (After tip and taxes),Thursday Cheese pizza with fresh basil $5 per adult,sushi Thursday $8 per adult,groupon/living social or restaurant coupon for Friday $12 per adult
Saturday-Sunday $115
Breakfast is a granola bar,banana and another piece of fruit - $1 per person and 400 calories each
Happy hour lunch specials at local diner $15 per adult
Grill out and have friends over or go over and visit friends $15 per adult
This is just a sample of what our options would be. We wouldn't always have to eat at the restaurant, pick your food up and go to the park.
We are moving closure to our jobs,so our home will cost more per sqft but will be closure to amenities like this that we can walk to or bike to. And a aquaponics system would probably be added to supplement our dietary needs and save money.
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Also this works great if you are buying a single family home that you are converting to a duplex that you are living on one side and renting the other side. No extra plumbing, don't have to worry about your electrical service not having enough amps to power a second kitchen and you don't have to sacrifice a valuable bedroom to build a kitchen. The upfront costs to convert a home into a duplex just went down significantly and your rental will go on the market faster.
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I think you missed it...
Good luck selling a house without a kitchen.
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You don't need a $30k kitchen remodel to cook.
That's like saying it's cheaper to take a taxi to work than buy a car, because a new Land Rover Range Rover is $199,495 and buying a new one every three years is expensive. :P
Sorry I didn't break it down, the $30k is for the sqft cost of the kitchen space 150x$150 per sqft plus the remodel cost. So its only $7,750 for the remodel and $23k is for the 150 sqft to house your kitchen.
I still don't understand this. Are you adding 150 sqft to the house that isn't already there? If the space is already allocated to be a kitchen, do you plan on removing the kitchen and putting something else there? I'm confused...
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You don't need a $30k kitchen remodel to cook.
That's like saying it's cheaper to take a taxi to work than buy a car, because a new Land Rover Range Rover is $199,495 and buying a new one every three years is expensive. :P
Sorry I didn't break it down, the $30k is for the sqft cost of the kitchen space 150x$150 per sqft plus the remodel cost. So its only $7,750 for the remodel and $23k is for the 150 sqft to house your kitchen.
I still don't understand this. Are you adding 150 sqft to the house that isn't already there? If the space is already allocated to be a kitchen, do you plan on removing the kitchen and putting something else there? I'm confused...
It sounds like a hypothetical calculation. I guess the house was $150 per square ft, and the kitchen that already exists is 150 sqft, so then the value of the kitchen that already exists when calculated as sqft of house is $22.5k. And they want to spend $7,750 updating the already existing kitchen so that brings it to $30k of money going to the expense of "owning a kitchen." So if you could buy the same exact house in the same location but without the kitchen somehow, it would somehow save you ~$23k. In reality it would probably drop the overall value of the house by much more than that since it would be one of the only houses around without a kitchen.
Since nearly all houses have kitchens, it is cheaper to eat at home since there is going to be a kitchen there. If you could somehow find a house without a kitchen, then you could argue that it might be cheaper to eat out than to build and maintain extra rooms for your kitchen and dining rooms. If you really don't want to pay for the privilege of kitchen ownership, the other option is to choose something cheaper than a traditional house.
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It's also cheaper to just live in a shed, use flashlights for lighting and the library for bathrooms. But I wouldn't want to lived that way for very long, and I wouldn't call it a house. Houses have kitchens.
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I literally don't understand this at all. So you are considering buying a place that needs a kitchen remodel and somehow just pretending the kitchen (and dining room) aren't there because you think it's less expensive to just eat out for every meal? What happens if after the first 23 consecutive days of eating a granola bar and piece of fruit for breakfast (sitting on your couch I assume since you don't have a dining room) you think "man I could go for an egg and a piece toast" but you don't have a fridge or a stove. Or you think "a beer would taste good right now" but you have no fridge. Or you don't feel like going out to eat? You mention having friends over to grill, however where are you keeping this food you are grilling? How will you wash the dishes after you grill? What happens if one of your sides needs to be cooked in an oven or on the stove? What happens if your family is sick for a week, just order Dominos? This doesn't even go into how unhealthy it would be to eat out so much and how boring it would be eating at inexpensive choices every meal. I love salad, but not every single day for lunch. Other quick lunch options are often very unhealthy. Plus, you are so limited with snack options for your family, your son in particular that I'd imagine it'd be easy to just grab some fries instead of just handing him some string cheese or a yogurt.
You didn't allocate any $ for your son to eat dinner on the week days or lunch/dinner on the weekends. Even without that though, I didn't understand your math. I show that using your example below you are actually spending $287/week, which is $1148/month, without your son for most meals.
I don't really know why I have spent so much time on this.
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It's an interesting thought experiment, and it's always worth it to examine assumptions, but I don't think the theory holds up under scrutiny.
A few counterpoints, beyond the whole "good luck selling without a kitchen"
1) Our eating area/nook/whatever gets used for a whole lot more than just meals
2) Ditto for the kitchen counter area
3) There's an assumption that you will never cook anything in your kitchen. Ever.
4) $500/year for maintenance just for the kitchen is ridiculous. In reality, it's *maybe* 1/5 of that. But it's a small amount compared to the $52,500
5) If you're gaining $70/week by eliminating the kitchen/dining area, that's $5/day/person in savings, assuming two people. For our family, there's no way we could go from home-cooked meals to restaurants 3x/day and only pay an extra $5 each.
6) Grilling out each weekend doesn't get you out of owning a kitchen. Gotta put that meat somewhere (fridge), gotta have dishes to serve on (sink & maybe dishwasher), or you pay for disposable plates/cups/etc. (you still need a place to put them), but you still have dishes (spatula at least) to wash.
7) others have said this, but health impacts shouldn't be ignored
Just for one datapoint, our family of 8(!) eats for about $230/week. That includes a hot breakfast every day except Saturday, when it's cereal. That means 7 days * 3 meals * 8 people = 168 meals, or an average of about $1.40/meal. That also includes household stuff--paper towels, dish soap, diapers & wipes, etc. If we eat out at McDonald's (the cheapest that comes to mind), it costs at a minimum $20, and we're not getting happy meals here--purely a la carte, and no drinks. That's $2.50/meal. And that's the best scenario in terms of promoting eating out.
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$30k for a complete kitchen remodel plus the cost of 150 sqft dedicated for cooking
Our rather awesome kitchen, which was a bare-studs tear-out, cost $4k in materials, including cabinets and materials. Took us two weeks but had we contracted out it will would have been under $10k. I'm also certain I won't do this any more frequently than once a decade - so... $400-$1000/year, or a cost of ~$33 per month maximum, or <$10/week.
Sure you *could* spend $30k on a remodel. I've read about people spending $100k on a remodel. I'm also certain you can get a fully functional kitchen for under $2k if you tried.
$250 a year in energy used by the appliances(doesn't include the cost for lighting and conditioning the air)
Ok sure... but don't you think you're going to want a fridge even if you don't want a stove? And in my house all my rooms are illuminated regardless of whether they are the kitchen. I'm just spendy like that.
$500 a year in for building maintenance for that extra 150 sqft used(roof,siding,flooring,plumbing,electrical)
I have no idea how I would even calculate this, so I'll just use your figure. Meh.
So if I'm ditching the kitchen might as well eliminate that dining room as well 150 sqft x $150=$22500
$52500x.07/52=$70 extra bucks added to the eating at home weekly bill plus an additional weekly cost of $13 for energy/maintenance for the kitchen
Wait, what? we're throwing out the dining room too? Guess we can't eat take-out (or eat in the kitchen we already threw out with the kitchen sink).
These figures seem so bogus I can only hope someone says "joke".
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1) Our eating area/nook/whatever gets used for a whole lot more than just meals
2) Ditto for the kitchen counter area
3) There's an assumption that you will never cook anything in your kitchen. Ever.
4) $500/year for maintenance just for the kitchen is ridiculous. In reality, it's *maybe* 1/5 of that. But it's a small amount compared to the $52,500
5) If you're gaining $70/week by eliminating the kitchen/dining area, that's $5/day/person in savings, assuming two people. For our family, there's no way we could go from home-cooked meals to restaurants 3x/day and only pay an extra $5 each.
6) Grilling out each weekend doesn't get you out of owning a kitchen. Gotta put that meat somewhere (fridge), gotta have dishes to serve on (sink & maybe dishwasher), or you pay for disposable plates/cups/etc. (you still need a place to put them), but you still have dishes (spatula at least) to wash.
7) others have said this, but health impacts shouldn't be ignored
Just for one datapoint, our family of 8(!) eats for about $230/week.
1,2,3) I completely agree, this the same at my own home. Where else could you do homework,science experiments and fix things?
4) I think you are only looking at the items in your kitchen. There are more costs associated with owning a kitchen then the appliances inside it. You have a roof. You have walls that have drywall,wood,insulation,siding,paint and windows. A floor that has vinyl,wood and insulation. You have plumbing lines, high amperage circuits and a ventilation system. You have a heating and cooling system that is bigger to account for that space. A kitchen is the most expensive and complex room in your home to build.
5) As someone who works full time, I don't sit down and have a full meal 3 times a day and if I didn't own a kitchen I probably would not expect to eat out 3 times a day. Fruits, nuts and granola bars are a healthy and cheaper alternative to fast food.
6) Grill out, Sous-vide,crock pot or just eat a raw meal. Why add that extra step of refrigeration when you could just buy the food when you need need it and then cook it.
7) Health impacts are a concern if your area has limited dining options like burger king, in my area there are plenty of places to eat at that have food that is healthy for you. This also gets you out of your house, walking or biking to get to the diner.
Owning a home that has a functional kitchen and then gutting it would be a waste. However if you are in the market for a duplex, you could pull something like this off. Eliminating a chore and freeing up time in your life by having someone else cook your meals and cleanup after you. While adding more money to your stash.
If I were going to build a home without a kitchen, I would design one that had a sheltered and screened in patio of about 400 sqft that could be later converted to a kitchen if I wanted to sell the home. 400 sqft of outdoor living space that has a dining and cooking area is about a 3rd of the cost of indoor living space, my taxes and insurance would also be cheaper.
CSA and aquaponics would compliment this lifestyle well.
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1) Our eating area/nook/whatever gets used for a whole lot more than just meals
2) Ditto for the kitchen counter area
3) There's an assumption that you will never cook anything in your kitchen. Ever.
4) $500/year for maintenance just for the kitchen is ridiculous. In reality, it's *maybe* 1/5 of that. But it's a small amount compared to the $52,500
5) If you're gaining $70/week by eliminating the kitchen/dining area, that's $5/day/person in savings, assuming two people. For our family, there's no way we could go from home-cooked meals to restaurants 3x/day and only pay an extra $5 each.
6) Grilling out each weekend doesn't get you out of owning a kitchen. Gotta put that meat somewhere (fridge), gotta have dishes to serve on (sink & maybe dishwasher), or you pay for disposable plates/cups/etc. (you still need a place to put them), but you still have dishes (spatula at least) to wash.
7) others have said this, but health impacts shouldn't be ignored
Just for one datapoint, our family of 8(!) eats for about $230/week.
1,2,3) I completely agree, this the same at my own home. Where else could you do homework,science experiments and fix things?
4) I think you are only looking at the items in your kitchen. There are more costs associated with owning a kitchen then the appliances inside it. You have a roof. You have walls that have drywall,wood,insulation,siding,paint and windows. A floor that has vinyl,wood and insulation. You have plumbing lines, high amperage circuits and a ventilation system. You have a heating and cooling system that is bigger to account for that space. A kitchen is the most expensive and complex room in your home to build.
5) As someone who works full time, I don't sit down and have a full meal 3 times a day and if I didn't own a kitchen I probably would not expect to eat out 3 times a day. Fruits, nuts and granola bars are a healthy and cheaper alternative to fast food.
6) Grill out, Sous-vide,crock pot or just eat a raw meal. Why add that extra step of refrigeration when you could just buy the food when you need need it and then cook it.
7) Health impacts are a concern if your area has limited dining options like burger king, in my area there are plenty of places to eat at that have food that is healthy for you. This also gets you out of your house, walking or biking to get to the diner.
4. Building materials don't just magically crumble out of thin air. And everything you mentioned is not expensive to replace. The fact is that the initial investment more than pays for itself over time when compared to eating out. No one is telling you that you need a certain size kitchen. All one really needs is a stove, fridge, and a sink.
5. Good luck with trying to survive on dry food. Not cheap, and not really fulfilling.
6. A grill is going to be as much or more to operate as a stove. Not really making any gains there. And the grill-able items you buy will generally be more expensive than things you can cook on a stovetop.
Eliminating a chore and freeing up time in your life by having someone else cook your meals and cleanup after you. While adding more money to your stash.
Except in reality you do none of those things because it still takes a measurable amount of time to go get the food unless you're within a mile of the place.
I would never justify my own eating out by calculating the total cost of owning/operating a kitchen, because I know the total amount is immaterial to the cost of eating out overall. We've had the same kitchen for about 35 years except a few appliance changes. I'm guessing the total operating cost per month over those 35 years to be less than $50 a month. Probably a lot less, I'm just being generous for the sake of the thread.
Another thing you're completely forgetting is the cost of the restaurant's kitchen is built into the cost of eating out, PLUS all the other overhead like huge dining areas, employees, commercial HVAC, etc. On top of that, they are making a profit. That's not counting the mileage used on your vehicle, time wasted, etc.
The $22k dining room figure is just nuts. Even if I were to build a 150sqft stand-alone building, I wouldn't come close to that figure. Obviously the cost of building will vary across the country. But unless you're in SF, I highly doubt the actual cost is >$10k. A kitchen may be the most complicated room of the house, but a dining room has to be the least. Unless you're building, you don't choose whether you get a kitchen or extra space for dining. It will 99% of the time come with the house, or at least the guts for.
Bottom line: eat out all you want, but don't bother trying to justify not owning or using a kitchen. As someone who eats out quite frequently, it's a service and experience that I value, so I pay for it. A lot of people on here don't and it's understandable as to why because it's much cheaper to prepare your own meals.
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Good luck selling a house without a kitchen. Might work in Manhattan, which is one of the few places in the world where it really does cost considerably more to cook at home than eat out (extremely high grocery cost and lots of low cost ethnic food options, most that deliver).
Agree about NYC being possibly cheaper to eat out in. Ethnic lunch specials for $4.99 were usually big enough for two meals for me, making them (with tip) 3 bucks each.
The only other eating out is cheaper isn't usually good for you food: it's the dollar menu at Wendy's or whatever. Still would probably come out ahead using the Costco pre-packaged spinach salads or whatever...because of no tipping.
Before I got the ducks/chickens it was pretty difficult for me to use everything fresh up in a timely manner....now if they get a little extra bok choy or lettuce it's no big deal.
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4. Building materials don't just magically crumble out of thin air. And everything you mentioned is not expensive to replace. The fact is that the initial investment more than pays for itself over time when compared to eating out. No one is telling you that you need a certain size kitchen. All one really needs is a stove, fridge, and a sink.
My post also mentioned that destroying a kitchen is not the ideal here. Buying a Single family home and converting it to a duplex or building your own home is about the only way that this theory makes this profitable. A dining room and kitchen cost is about $50k, that is on the low end. Again, I'm not talking about the money you spent to remodel a kitchen, there are other costs associated with building a kitchen.
5. Good luck with trying to survive on dry food. Not cheap, and not really fulfilling.
6. A grill is going to be as much or more to operate as a stove. Not really making any gains there. And the grill-able items you buy will generally be more expensive than things you can cook on a stovetop.
Surviving on dry foods is not the point, there are many of options that don't require cooking and are healthy. With the last meal of the day being the one that you splurge on. Again about the grill and stove comparison, I have $200 webber grill with about $100 in gravel under it for the base. My kitchen stove is $500 but the room around it costed $23k.
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The stove is more upfront because it's much more versatile, which is why more people own stoves than grills. There's no rule saying a stove has to be surrounded by $23k in building materials. You can keep your stove outside on the deck if you like. Seeing as how cooking with gas costs $1/hr, and cooking with a stove costs about ~$0.50/hr, you're much better off with the stove no matter how much you're trying to justify not owning traditional kitchen tools. The grill, so far, is your cheapest alternative to the other "solutions" you've thought up, and is still more expensive than owning a "kitchen". Again, can we separate sprawling cabinets, microwaves, and massive overpriced dining areas from our definition of "kitchen", because the majority doesn't own a fancy, elaborate kitchen. Let's leave it at "preparing one's own meals".
This is very much a kitchen:
(https://a1.muscache.com/im/pictures/40745304/5ffff39f_original.jpg?aki_policy=large)
It has a burner, toaster, fridge, sink. Basically everything you need.
As long as you plan on living long enough to recuperate the initial investments, which is very likely, it's always going to be cheaper to do it yourself (own a "kitchen"), so is this really about saving money or more about convenience and downsizing?
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$52500x.07/52=$70 extra bucks added to the eating at home weekly bill plus an additional weekly cost of $13 for energy/maintenance for the kitchen
I will probably never go this route, I love cooking at home but to say its cheaper then eating out at a restaurant is not exactly true.
I understand that this is just a thought exercise, and in that vein, I still think your numbers are so completely off that they cannot substantiate your claim that cooking at home is not cheaper than eating out at a restaurant. Either that or I am completely misunderstanding what you've done.
Looking at your numbers, the $52500 seems to be the cost of a new kitchen ($30,000) plus the cost you'd save per square foot by not having a dining room ($22500 - figuring 150sqft at $150 per square foot.)
You multipled that by 0.07 (why? what is that number? it's driving me crazy!) and divided by 52 (the number of weeks in a year) to arrive at your figure that a kitchen + dining room = $70 extra per week.
So let's start first with your numbers and then see where we end up.
#1) a kitchen renovation does not need to cost $30k. A quick 'googling' shows that the average kitchen renovation is $15k-20k, though it is certainly possible to do it for much, much less. Even with a general contractor doing the work, I'm going to put this at $10k.
#2) you don't have to buy a newly renovated kitchen every year. Kitchen remodels multiple decades, even if they start looking 'dated' after a while (which can be addressed largely by painting and swapping out cabinet faces every couple decades). I'm putting the kitchen renovation good for 20 years. This means the cost of our kitchen remodel costs $500/year or ~$9/week.
#3) the dining room. This one is a giant red herring. A "dinning room" is nothing more than a room in your house that you put a dining table, and few chairs and maybe a china hutch. Don't want a dinning room? Great! Swap the table for a desk and make it an office. Or put doors on and it becomes a bed-room. Or a game room. Sorry, you can't add this space to your total. Don't want the extra space at all? Buy a home with one fewer bedrooms and then convert the existing "dining room" into a bedroom.
So far... if we accept your annual maintenance costs of $500 (which I still believe is too high) and $250 for added electricity, we come out with this:
($10,000 kitchen) / (20 years * 52 weeks/year) = $9.62 per week. Add the above maintenance and electricity costs and we're sitting at $24.04 per week.
Unfortunately, this is where the thought-experiment really breaks down. Others have said "good luck selling a home without a kitchen" and similar statements. The core of those statements is that when you buy a house, even if you don't use a particular room or feature, it still holds value. Your kitchen upgrade of $10k - $30,000 can be recouped when you sell the home. People who care deeply about such things say you can recoup 70-80% of your costs on a kitchen remodel when you sell. Ignoring opportunity costs, that brings your kitchen renovation costs down to under $3/week.
Then there's the assumption that you must remodel the kitchens just to make them functional. Why can't you live with what's there? I've lived in some apartments with horribly dated and cheap kitchens, but they all allowed me to cook amazing food. A stove, a fridge and a sink is all you really need. Since kitchens in some form are included in almost every house I've ever seen for sale the cost is $0. Maybe $500 for appliances off craigslist which will last for years.
What about if you're building from scratch? You suggested you'd include a large 400 sqft outdoor living space and 'enclose it later' if you wanted to sell. When building from the ground up the cost to install a kitchen is far, far less than a remodel. Pipes and wires can be installed when it's done throughout the house - the extra "cost" of the kitchen is the materials, which you'd spend if/when you 'enclosed' your outdoor living space later. I will give you points for reducing your potential taxes with your strategy, but ultimately it will be more expensive to convert an outdoor living space into a kitchen after the fact. You'll need permits, inspections, walls that will need to be torn-down and insulation put up.
Also - while I love cooking 'al-fresco' (during out kitchen reno we cooked every meal on our grill) - I'm curious what you will do in the winter time. Cook outside but eat inside in your non-existent dining room? This might be ok for places like Florida or southern California, ubt it's not exactly warm outside in January in Richmond VA.
All of which brings us to the original question about whether it's cheaper to cook meals at home or eat out all of the time. The one thing we haven't considered is the cost for eating out vs cooking at home. To keep things simple, let's go with my higher estimate of $24/week for the cost of a kitchen (which includes a full kitchen renovation and your maintenance and electricty figures, but ignores any resale value), and consider a family of 4. The per-day cost of a kitchen would be jabout 86¢ per person per day.
We know there are literally hundreds of good meals that can feed a family of 4 for $10 or less (and under $1 for breakfast). Adding on our "kitchen cost" this puts each meal per person under $3.36. Even this is an over-estimation, since the per-day cost would be spread out over the day (e.g. over 3 meals, not just 1). So - can you eat out consistently for less than $3 per person per dinner? That seems impossible ot me - at least in the US.
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1,2,3) I completely agree, this the same at my own home. Where else could you do homework,science experiments and fix things?
4) I think you are only looking at the items in your kitchen. There are more costs associated with owning a kitchen then the appliances inside it. You have a roof. You have walls that have drywall,wood,insulation,siding,paint and windows. A floor that has vinyl,wood and insulation. You have plumbing lines, high amperage circuits and a ventilation system. You have a heating and cooling system that is bigger to account for that space. A kitchen is the most expensive and complex room in your home to build.
5) As someone who works full time, I don't sit down and have a full meal 3 times a day and if I didn't own a kitchen I probably would not expect to eat out 3 times a day. Fruits, nuts and granola bars are a healthy and cheaper alternative to fast food.
6) Grill out, Sous-vide,crock pot or just eat a raw meal. Why add that extra step of refrigeration when you could just buy the food when you need need it and then cook it.
7) Health impacts are a concern if your area has limited dining options like burger king, in my area there are plenty of places to eat at that have food that is healthy for you. This also gets you out of your house, walking or biking to get to the diner.
4) The $500 you mentioned in the first post was for maintenance/repair, but now you're talking about the structure (walls, plumbing, etc), which is included in the $150/sqft elsewhere. That sounds like double counting to me.
5) True, your eating habits are different from ours, and it sounds like not having a kitchen wouldn't affect your breakfast at least.
6) You still gotta wash that crock pot. And your other dishes.
7) True, but apples-to-apples, eating out is going to be less healthy than an equivalent meal you prepare at home, and healthier eating out will also tend to be more expensive as well.
And Ricky is right--grilling out isn't free. Propane costs money, and will be more expensive than cooking on a gas range indoors. So that's actually a step back in terms of financial gains.
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I understand that this is just a thought exercise, and in that vein, I still think your numbers are so completely off that they cannot substantiate your claim that cooking at home is not cheaper than eating out at a restaurant. Either that or I am completely misunderstanding what you've done.
Looking at your numbers, the $52500 seems to be the cost of a new kitchen ($30,000) plus the cost you'd save per square foot by not having a dining room ($22500 - figuring 150sqft at $150 per square foot.)
You multipled that by 0.07 (why? what is that number? it's driving me crazy!) and divided by 52 (the number of weeks in a year) to arrive at your figure that a kitchen + dining room = $70 extra per week.
I believe the thinking is this: Take the capital cost x 7% interest/lost returns, % by 52 to get a weekly carrying cost.
Which, in hindsight, isn't right, either. If you take average market returns of 7% and subtract the 3% interest you'd be paying, the opportunity cost is really only 4%, not 7%. If it's a renovation, the interest rate would likely be higher, which drives the opportunity cost even lower, if I'm understanding it right.
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IMO, some propositions are just absurd on their face that I'm not sure what the point is in engaging in concrete numbers.
I'm sure you know this, but you can cook in a crappy looking kitchen for decades and decades. As long as the stove, fridge and sink work, you're golden. My neighbors paid 60K for their house and have lived in it for 20 years. They've never redone the crappy looking kitchen and still cook in it. Enough said. Even if you factor in a place with a HCOL, the numbers will still work out, because food in restaurants will also cost more. Sure, if you want a super fancy kitchen, your argument might hold water, but otherwise, it's silly.
I would make the argument more based on time than on cost, especially if you're factoring in a single person. E.g. a single person who earns 300K and gets paid progressively more for working more, might be able to argue that it is better for him or her financially to eat all their meals out, since cooking and cleaning up take time. But even then, you can't work all the time, and eating in is most certainly better for your waistline.
But your argument about housing costs and remodeling costs is just strange. Maybe you would have done well to have lived in the 1950s. I know my father didn't cook at all in his 20s. He lived in boarding houses of sorts and went to cafeterias and automats for food. He was born in 1939.
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$52500x.07/52=$70 extra bucks added to the eating at home weekly bill plus an additional weekly cost of $13 for energy/maintenance for the kitchen
I will probably never go this route, I love cooking at home but to say its cheaper then eating out at a restaurant is not exactly true.
I understand that this is just a thought exercise, and in that vein, I still think your numbers are so completely off that they cannot substantiate your claim that cooking at home is not cheaper than eating out at a restaurant. Either that or I am completely misunderstanding what you've done.
Looking at your numbers, the $52500 seems to be the cost of a new kitchen ($30,000) plus the cost you'd save per square foot by not having a dining room ($22500 - figuring 150sqft at $150 per square foot.)
You multipled that by 0.07 (why? what is that number? it's driving me crazy!) and divided by 52 (the number of weeks in a year) to arrive at your figure that a kitchen + dining room = $70 extra per week.
So let's start first with your numbers and then see where we end up.
#1) a kitchen renovation does not need to cost $30k. A quick 'googling' shows that the average kitchen renovation is $15k-20k, though it is certainly possible to do it for much, much less. Even with a general contractor doing the work, I'm going to put this at $10k.
#2) you don't have to buy a newly renovated kitchen every year. Kitchen remodels multiple decades, even if they start looking 'dated' after a while (which can be addressed largely by painting and swapping out cabinet faces every couple decades). I'm putting the kitchen renovation good for 20 years. This means the cost of our kitchen remodel costs $500/year or ~$9/week.
#3) the dining room. This one is a giant red herring. A "dinning room" is nothing more than a room in your house that you put a dining table, and few chairs and maybe a china hutch. Don't want a dinning room? Great! Swap the table for a desk and make it an office. Or put doors on and it becomes a bed-room. Or a game room. Sorry, you can't add this space to your total. Don't want the extra space at all? Buy a home with one fewer bedrooms and then convert the existing "dining room" into a bedroom.
So far... if we accept your annual maintenance costs of $500 (which I still believe is too high) and $250 for added electricity, we come out with this:
($10,000 kitchen) / (20 years * 52 weeks/year) = $9.62 per week. Add the above maintenance and electricity costs and we're sitting at $24.04 per week.
Unfortunately, this is where the thought-experiment really breaks down. Others have said "good luck selling a home without a kitchen" and similar statements. The core of those statements is that when you buy a house, even if you don't use a particular room or feature, it still holds value. Your kitchen upgrade of $10k - $30,000 can be recouped when you sell the home. People who care deeply about such things say you can recoup 70-80% of your costs on a kitchen remodel when you sell. Ignoring opportunity costs, that brings your kitchen renovation costs down to under $3/week.
Then there's the assumption that you must remodel the kitchens just to make them functional. Why can't you live with what's there? I've lived in some apartments with horribly dated and cheap kitchens, but they all allowed me to cook amazing food. A stove, a fridge and a sink is all you really need. Since kitchens in some form are included in almost every house I've ever seen for sale the cost is $0. Maybe $500 for appliances off craigslist which will last for years.
What about if you're building from scratch? You suggested you'd include a large 400 sqft outdoor living space and 'enclose it later' if you wanted to sell. When building from the ground up the cost to install a kitchen is far, far less than a remodel. Pipes and wires can be installed when it's done throughout the house - the extra "cost" of the kitchen is the materials, which you'd spend if/when you 'enclosed' your outdoor living space later. I will give you points for reducing your potential taxes with your strategy, but ultimately it will be more expensive to convert an outdoor living space into a kitchen after the fact. You'll need permits, inspections, walls that will need to be torn-down and insulation put up.
Also - while I love cooking 'al-fresco' (during out kitchen reno we cooked every meal on our grill) - I'm curious what you will do in the winter time. Cook outside but eat inside in your non-existent dining room? This might be ok for places like Florida or southern California, ubt it's not exactly warm outside in January in Richmond VA.
All of which brings us to the original question about whether it's cheaper to cook meals at home or eat out all of the time. The one thing we haven't considered is the cost for eating out vs cooking at home. To keep things simple, let's go with my higher estimate of $24/week for the cost of a kitchen (which includes a full kitchen renovation and your maintenance and electricty figures, but ignores any resale value), and consider a family of 4. The per-day cost of a kitchen would be jabout 86¢ per person per day.
We know there are literally hundreds of good meals that can feed a family of 4 for $10 or less (and under $1 for breakfast). Adding on our "kitchen cost" this puts each meal per person under $3.36. Even this is an over-estimation, since the per-day cost would be spread out over the day (e.g. over 3 meals, not just 1). So - can you eat out consistently for less than $3 per person per dinner? That seems impossible ot me - at least in the US.
I will use a real world example to better explain
Kim and Michael buy a 2500 SQFT home, there county will allow them to convert the single family home into a multi family home. They take 1500 SQFT of the home 2 bedrooms,2 bathrooms,kitchen,living room and a dinging room and rent that part out. Now Kim and Michael have 1000 sqft, they need 2 bedrooms,living room and a bathroom. The 1000 sqft accommodates this perfectly, however lets say they want a Kitchen and somewhere indoors to to dedicate to eating those delicious home cooked meals there going to need a additional 300 sqft. 300 sqft could come from the rental side or you could build it.
If they build it will cost 300x$150 sqft=$45,000 and they need cabinets,appliances,plumbing,higher amperage electrical circuits totaling $7,500.
They remove $52,500 from there vanguard account that earns %7, this is where the weekly $70 comes into play.
Or they remove a bedroom and living space from the rental to accommodate there need for a kitchen and dining space, this would probably be a even bigger hit than $70 per week
This 300 sqft will need a new roof every 15 years,repairs,new paint,new siding every 20 years,new windows every 20 years,new appliances every 15 years, a larger heating/cooling system replaced every 15 years. This is where I came up with $500 a year in maintenance.
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I will use a real world example to better explain
Kim and Michael buy a 2500 SQFT home, there county will allow them to convert the single family home into a multi family home. They take 1500 SQFT of the home 2 bedrooms,2 bathrooms,kitchen,living room and a dinging room and rent that part out. Now Kim and Michael have 1000 sqft, they need 2 bedrooms,living room and a bathroom. The 1000 sqft accommodates this perfectly, however lets say they want a Kitchen and somewhere indoors to to dedicate to eating those delicious home cooked meals there going to need a additional 300 sqft. 300 sqft could come from the rental side or you could build it.
If they build it will cost 300x$150 sqft=$45,000 and they need cabinets,appliances,plumbing,higher amperage electrical circuits totaling $7,500.
They remove $52,500 from there vanguard account that earns %7, this is where the weekly $70 comes into play.
Or they remove a bedroom and living space from the rental to accommodate there need for a kitchen and dining space, this would probably be a even bigger hit than $70 per week
This 300 sqft will need a new roof every 15 years,repairs,new paint,new siding every 20 years,new windows every 20 years,new appliances every 15 years, a larger heating/cooling system replaced every 15 years. This is where I came up with $500 a year in maintenance.
That's a horrible example because 1,250 sq ft is easily enough room for 2br/2ba and a kitchen/etc. You're beginning to compare apples to oranges which deviates entirely from the title of the thread.
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This whole thread is mind numbingly painful to read =D
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I will use a real world example to better explain
Kim and Michael buy a 2500 SQFT home, there county will allow them to convert the single family home into a multi family home. They take 1500 SQFT of the home 2 bedrooms,2 bathrooms,kitchen,living room and a dinging room and rent that part out. Now Kim and Michael have 1000 sqft, they need 2 bedrooms,living room and a bathroom. The 1000 sqft accommodates this perfectly, however lets say they want a Kitchen and somewhere indoors to to dedicate to eating those delicious home cooked meals there going to need a additional 300 sqft. 300 sqft could come from the rental side or you could build it.
If they build it will cost 300x$150 sqft=$45,000 and they need cabinets,appliances,plumbing,higher amperage electrical circuits totaling $7,500.
They remove $52,500 from there vanguard account that earns %7, this is where the weekly $70 comes into play.
Or they remove a bedroom and living space from the rental to accommodate there need for a kitchen and dining space, this would probably be a even bigger hit than $70 per week
This 300 sqft will need a new roof every 15 years,repairs,new paint,new siding every 20 years,new windows every 20 years,new appliances every 15 years, a larger heating/cooling system replaced every 15 years. This is where I came up with $500 a year in maintenance.
That's a horrible example because 1,250 sq ft is easily enough room for 2br/2ba and a kitchen/etc. You're beginning to compare apples to oranges which deviates entirely from the title of the thread.
The point I was trying to make is that if there was a scenario where you did not have to pay for kitchen and SQFT required for one, the money saved more then makes up for the cost of eating at a restaurant. Same as buying a home with no yard, but walking across the street to the park.
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If one were to somehow acquire hypothetical kitchen-less housing, you could add a stove top oven, fridge, and microwave to already existing space for considerably less than $30k. You can take the living space of a hotel room and add a stove top oven, fridge, and microwave. You don't have to add on another room to the house to add kitchen capabilities to a small dwelling. Look at how much space the kitchen area takes up in a small horse trailer with living quarters. There are plenty of micro apartments will full kitchens. If there isn't enough space to add a small kitchen area to your apartment then it's because something else is claiming that space. Then the question would be more like, "What is the value of having a bookshelf and chair here instead of a small kitchen area?"
The dwelling would have to be very very small to actually force you to have to build on an extra room to get kitchen functionality.
Shove some kitchen appliances in a corner, add some plumbing and rewiring, and you're good to go.
http://st.hzcdn.com/fimgs/68e159820ffdf650_4147-w422-h639-b0-p0--traditional-kitchen.jpg
http://www.remodelista.com/files/fields/700_1small-kitchen-from-worksted-on-dwell-magazine_0.jpg
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You can do a kitchen for less than $5k. IKEA or ReStore for cabinets, ReStore, Craigslist or scratch and dent for appliances and backsplash, premade laminate countertops from big box stores, peel and stick vinyl tile floors. The amount of money people think they need to spend on kitchens is ridiculous.
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I will use a real world example to better explain
Kim and Michael buy a 2500 SQFT home, there county will allow them to convert the single family home into a multi family home.
I'm not aware of any jurisdiction that will issue a certificate of occupancy to a unit with no kitchen.
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I will use a real world example to better explain
Kim and Michael buy a 2500 SQFT home, there county will allow them to convert the single family home into a multi family home.
I'm not aware of any jurisdiction that will issue a certificate of occupancy to a unit with no kitchen.
Just did a search on certificate of occupancy in regards to a kitchen. Looks like at a minimum a sink would be required in the county where I reside.
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I will use a real world example to better explain
Kim and Michael buy a 2500 SQFT home, there county will allow them to convert the single family home into a multi family home. They take 1500 SQFT of the home 2 bedrooms,2 bathrooms,kitchen,living room and a dinging room and rent that part out. Now Kim and Michael have 1000 sqft, they need 2 bedrooms,living room and a bathroom. The 1000 sqft accommodates this perfectly, however lets say they want a Kitchen and somewhere indoors to to dedicate to eating those delicious home cooked meals there going to need a additional 300 sqft. 300 sqft could come from the rental side or you could build it.
If they build it will cost 300x$150 sqft=$45,000 and they need cabinets,appliances,plumbing,higher amperage electrical circuits totaling $7,500.
They remove $52,500 from there vanguard account that earns %7, this is where the weekly $70 comes into play.
Or they remove a bedroom and living space from the rental to accommodate there need for a kitchen and dining space, this would probably be a even bigger hit than $70 per week
This 300 sqft will need a new roof every 15 years,repairs,new paint,new siding every 20 years,new windows every 20 years,new appliances every 15 years, a larger heating/cooling system replaced every 15 years. This is where I came up with $500 a year in maintenance.
Reading this and going back re-reading the thread it seems that the numbers are getting even more absurd.
Let's take your 'real-world' example.
#1) in a 1,000 sqft duplex how would a 300sqft kitchen make any sense? I live in a 950 sqft house and our incredible kitchen is a touch under 100sqft, which includes a breakfast bar where we can consume all our meals.
#2) You could certainly spend $45,000 putting on an addition. Or you could be sensible and reconfigure the existing space. See Ricky's post for one solution.
#3) $7500 for appliances, some wiring and plumbing. Either you're choosing to go high-end, or you are getting ripped off. A nice 8' countertop with cabinets and a sink will set you back about $1500 at IKEA brand new. A stove and fridge are $1000 on CL. Even brand new you can get these for $1500. That leaves $4500 for someone to install a few outlets and (admittedly the expensive part) hookups for a sink.
#4) if you put in your addition, you've fundamentally increased the value of your home. If you're going to be fair you have to deduct this from the cost of 'having a kitchen'.
#5) regarding maintenance - sure there will be some, but your figures seem to be based on putting up an addition. If you don't build a new room most of the costs you listed (roof, windows, ventilation system, new siding) would need to be done anyway and can't be added to "putting in a kitchen".
I do not doubt that someone can make the cost of putting in a new kitchen far exceed the cost of meals for decades. But that doesn't mean that it must, or even that it should cost more. I believe most people would say it's absurd to take a 1000sqft duplex and add a 300sqft addition. It's also absurd to suggest that you need $30k-45k to put a new kitchen into an existing space, and then claim you need $7500 extra in materials.
It's akin to saying biking 5 miles to work everyday costs more than driving 5 miles, because you need a $5,500 carbon-fiber road bike, $500 for lights, tires and tubes every year, $200 for new biking outfits every season and $60 for bike-shop tuneups ever month. And oh yes, you need to dedicate a special part of your garage to storing and maintaining your bike, so that adds 100sqft x $150 = $15,000 to the price of bike commuting. Yes, you could absolutely spend more on biking than driving, but you could also do it like the vast majority of people and keep costs in line with your lifestyle.
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You don't need a $30k kitchen remodel to cook.
That's like saying it's cheaper to take a taxi to work than buy a car, because a new Land Rover Range Rover is $199,495 and buying a new one every three years is expensive. :P
This exactly. My very general observation (where n=my friends and acquaintances) has yielded Spork's Kitchen Anomaly, which states: The amount of money spent on a kitchen is inversely proportional to the amount of actual cooking that takes place there.
People I know with the biggest, nicest kitchens generally just eat out or warm up frozen food in the microwave. I am sure it tastes fabulous on their imported granite counters, though.
We lived 5 years in an actual shed (for the folks laughing about that in this thread). We had many a gourmet meal made in a "kitchen" (quotes required!) that was smaller than most closets. It's not really how I want to live for 40+ years. But it was an awesome time for the time we were there.
I'm not aware of any jurisdiction that will issue a certificate of occupancy to a unit with no kitchen.
I live in a nice 2400sqft home with no certificate of occupancy. It never bothered me. (But it does have a kitchen.) CoO's are really just for lenders (to make sure they're loaning money on a house that meets code) and for code authorities. I live in the country and paid cash and didn't require either of those.
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This exactly. My very general observation (where n=my friends and acquaintances) has yielded Spork's Kitchen Anomaly, which states: The amount of money spent on a kitchen is inversely proportional to the amount of actual cooking that takes place there.
People I know with the biggest, nicest kitchens generally just eat out or warm up frozen food in the microwave. I am sure it tastes fabulous on their imported granite counters, though.
That's funny - I see it more as a "bell-shaped curve". People who never cook either accept an incredibly crappy kitchen (dated galley kitchens with broken appliances) OR they have those magazine-ready kitchens with appliances that have cabinet fronts, "chilling drawers" and seem designed more to impress than be used (heaven forbid you splash 375º oil or get flour onto anything. Those that cook a lot go the more practical route: midrange appliances on hard-working surfaces with virtually every item being used weekly.
Meh - just my observation... I had thought of this before you came up with your "inverse-proportional rule." No idea who is right.
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This exactly. My very general observation (where n=my friends and acquaintances) has yielded Spork's Kitchen Anomaly, which states: The amount of money spent on a kitchen is inversely proportional to the amount of actual cooking that takes place there.
People I know with the biggest, nicest kitchens generally just eat out or warm up frozen food in the microwave. I am sure it tastes fabulous on their imported granite counters, though.
That's funny - I see it more as a "bell-shaped curve". People who never cook either accept an incredibly crappy kitchen (dated galley kitchens with broken appliances) OR they have those magazine-ready kitchens with appliances that have cabinet fronts, "chilling drawers" and seem designed more to impress than be used (heaven forbid you splash 375º oil or get flour onto anything. Those that cook a lot go the more practical route: midrange appliances on hard-working surfaces with virtually every item being used weekly.
Meh - just my observation... I had thought of this before you came up with your "inverse-proportional rule." No idea who is right.
But how in the world could I be wrong where n="people I know". I'm pretty sure that sample size makes me right. ;)
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But how in the world could I be wrong where n="people I know". I'm pretty sure that sample size makes me right. ;)
I tried to type "people i know" into systat for sample size but it gave me an error message.
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But how in the world could I be wrong where n="people I know". I'm pretty sure that sample size makes me right. ;)
I tried to type "people i know" into systat for sample size but it gave me an error message.
unpossible!
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My brother and his wife have been cooking in a crappy kitchen for a long time. My brother is 6'2", and his wife is 5'9", and the prior owners were under 5' tall. Craziness with the low counters.
Anyway...when we bought our house our kitchen had a single wall of cabinets with a sink, and that's it. No appliances. We already had a fridge. Here's a summary of our appliances, with today's costs:
Hotpoint gas oven: $360 (Home Depot)
Kenmore 20.5 cu foot fridge with freezer on top: $650 (Sears)
Kenmore built in dishwasher: $450 (Sears)
Range hood: $320
New cabinets (so we could install a dishwasher - the wall of cabinets was only 22" deep, and you need 24"): $500 (my husband made these from scratch, this included drawer slides, etc)
Cabinet fronts (ordered online to match what was already there): $500
Tile: $1000 (because we have good taste in tile I guess)
$3780.
Probably cheaper if you went with Ikea.
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You don't need a $30k kitchen remodel to cook.
That's like saying it's cheaper to take a taxi to work than buy a car, because a new Land Rover Range Rover is $199,495 and buying a new one every three years is expensive. :P
Sorry I didn't break it down, the $30k is for the sqft cost of the kitchen space 150x$150 per sqft plus the remodel cost. So its only $7,750 for the remodel and $23k is for the 150 sqft to house your kitchen.
Okay well if this is true, where did you get the $52,500 number? I'm pretty sure you got it by adding up $30k and the $150x150 number....
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My brother and his wife have been cooking in a crappy kitchen for a long time. My brother is 6'2", and his wife is 5'9", and the prior owners were under 5' tall. Craziness with the low counters.
birthday present idea (http://www.amazon.com/Cutting-Professional-Antibacterial-Butcher-Non-Slip/dp/B011EQF4ZY/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&qid=1443114590&sr=8-13&keywords=butcher+block) for your brother. I lived in a 120 year old house in Maine with countertops that were 27" and ceilings that sloped down to about 6'6 over the sink. I'm 6'5". The extra few inches made a huge difference for me when chopping/prepping on the low counter tops.
Also - wholeheartedly agree that you could build a completely functional kitchen for just a few thousand.
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You don't need a $30k kitchen remodel to cook.
That's like saying it's cheaper to take a taxi to work than buy a car, because a new Land Rover Range Rover is $199,495 and buying a new one every three years is expensive. :P
Sorry I didn't break it down, the $30k is for the sqft cost of the kitchen space 150x$150 per sqft plus the remodel cost. So its only $7,750 for the remodel and $23k is for the 150 sqft to house your kitchen.
Okay well if this is true, where did you get the $52,500 number? I'm pretty sure you got it by adding up $30k and the $150x150 number....
Dining Room+Kitchen=300 sqft
This is a average size dining room and kitchen.
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OP, here's what you need to do.
1. Go to the library.
2. Research what the upper class ate in 17th century England and France (probably other countries, but I'm more familiar with those).
3. Research what kitchens in the 17th century looked like.
4. Realize how incredibly lucky and spoiled we are with refrigeration and electric/gas stoves and ovens.
5. Facepunch yourself for your old, now completely discarded plan.
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You are correct about all the hidden costs of square footage etc... But still cheaper to eat at home. You could just go with the eat once per day and only eat raw uncooked foods idea.
I'm definitely not a foodie as you appear to be. For me eating = sustenance. I could live on canned food, vinegar covered meats and veggies. No refrigerator required. No cooking.
It sounds like you spend a massive amount of time preparing meals.
Go with once a day eating to help with this. Cook at least 3 meals worth each time and you will have cut your prep time by 70%.
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Dining Room+Kitchen=300 sqft
This is a average size dining room and kitchen.
Perhaps, but it isn't necessary, especially for the sub-divided 2 bedroom duplex you are talking about.
The estimates you are giving are way out of proportion. Awesome kitchens can be designed in under 100sqft with an eating space, which would fit better in a 2 bedroom duplex.
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You should probably live in one of these:
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You should probably live in one of these:
I was going to go with a "tiny house"...
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The other thing I don't understand is your basic unhappiness if you were to do this. You initial post stated that you really enjoy eating "good food". I do as well, which is why I struggle each month with my grocery budget. However sustaining myself and my family on Subway, granola bars and cheap sushi sounds like HELL. Subway is the opposite of "good food" and I feel that you are totally wrong in saying you will be able to find inexpensive, healthy options when your example was taco Tuesday and happy hour bar menus. 9 times out of 10, eating out is less healthy then making real food at home.
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This exactly. My very general observation (where n=my friends and acquaintances) has yielded Spork's Kitchen Anomaly, which states: The amount of money spent on a kitchen is inversely proportional to the amount of actual cooking that takes place there.
I read some where that the people who get the fancy kitchen remodels do so because they envision themselves cooking fancy meals in the fancy kitchen one day. "As soon as a get a fancy kitchen, I'll want to cook fancy meals" sort of thing.
I live in a nice 2400sqft home with no certificate of occupancy. It never bothered me. (But it does have a kitchen.) CoO's are really just for lenders (to make sure they're loaning money on a house that meets code) and for code authorities. I live in the country and paid cash and didn't require either of those.
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My house doesn't have one either. The city didn't issue them back when my house was built. The OP was saying the county might permit the conversion to a multi-family. Without a kitchen, it is unlikely they would issue such a permit.
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The other thing I don't understand is your basic unhappiness if you were to do this. You initial post stated that you really enjoy eating "good food". I do as well, which is why I struggle each month with my grocery budget. However sustaining myself and my family on Subway, granola bars and cheap sushi sounds like HELL. Subway is the opposite of "good food" and I feel that you are totally wrong in saying you will be able to find inexpensive, healthy options when your example was taco Tuesday and happy hour bar menus. 9 times out of 10, eating out is less healthy then making real food at home.
I agree with you, the choices I listed were quick ones that I could think of.
Perhaps, but it isn't necessary, especially for the sub-divided 2 bedroom duplex you are talking about.
The estimates you are giving are way out of proportion. Awesome kitchens can be designed in under 100sqft with an eating space, which would fit better in a 2 bedroom duplex.
I agree 300 SQFT for a kitchen + room for a small table and 4 chairs in a small duplex is over shooting. 150 SQFT is probably a more realistic number. 150 sqft that could be used on the rental side to make that 2br a 3br making the rent go up a additional $400
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OP - is this discussion purely academic or are you really and truly thinking of doing this?
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A lot of the homes in the area are dated and need kitchen remodels or expansions to meet our needs.
...$30k for a complete kitchen remodel plus the cost of 150 sqft dedicated for cooking
^^This is a modern delusion created by HGTV house porn. I grew up in a 70s kitchen. There's nothing wrong with them. And why is there always a rush to get a new house and then immediately smash a room to pieces?
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People at my work say that all the time. Then in the afternoon they are moaning in pain from diarrhea from the crap they ate for lunch. You're paying for it in one way or another.
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I think this should be in antimustachian wall of shame and comedy
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A lot of the homes in the area are dated and need kitchen remodels or expansions to meet our needs.
...$30k for a complete kitchen remodel plus the cost of 150 sqft dedicated for cooking
^^This is a modern delusion created by HGTV house porn. I grew up in a 70s kitchen. There's nothing wrong with them. And why is there always a rush to get a new house and then immediately smash a room to pieces?
+1!!!
Why does every kitchen now have to have granite countertops and stainless steel appliances? They are all carbon copies of each other and not very original.
I recently sold a house I had been living in for about 10 years. The kitchen was nice, I had replaced the appliances recently, but everything was white. It was clean and functional. My realtor said people looking at the house were complaining because they'd have to spend $100k to fix up the kitchen and bathrooms. I was like WTF!!! The kitchen and bathrooms were in excellent condition, but I guess they were "dated". The guy that ended up buying the place told me he really liked the kitchen...that he bought the house since everything was in great condition...so that made my realtor go quiet. She had wanted me to reduce the asking price due to the "dated" kitchen and bathrooms.
A friend was looking to buy a condo at a good price, but then complained that they would have to spend money to modernize the kitchen. I wondered if the kitchen was really non-operational or whether it was just "dated". Sad because they don't make a lot of money. I can find many other things to spend money on than updating to a granite countertop and stainless steel appliance kitchen that you find in every home now.
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I recently sold a house I had been living in for about 10 years. The kitchen was nice, I had replaced the appliances recently, but everything was white. It was clean and functional. My realtor said people looking at the house were complaining because they'd have to spend $100k to fix up the kitchen and bathrooms. I was like WTF!!! The kitchen and bathrooms were in excellent condition, but I guess they were "dated". The guy that ended up buying the place told me he really liked the kitchen...that he bought the house since everything was in great condition...so that made my realtor go quiet. She had wanted me to reduce the asking price due to the "dated" kitchen and bathrooms.
A friend was looking to buy a condo at a good price, but then complained that they would have to spend money to modernize the kitchen. I wondered if the kitchen was really non-operational or whether it was just "dated". Sad because they don't make a lot of money. I can find many other things to spend money on than updating to a granite countertop and stainless steel appliance kitchen that you find in every home now.
As a first time home buyer, I have to admit I fell prey to this mindset. The kitchen in the house we bought and still live in was "dated" in the sense that the cabinets are that cheap white MDF and the countertops are a black speckled laminate. I definitely marked it as a downside of the home and something I wanted to change. But the longer I've worked in the kitchen, I've thought - who cares? The MDF cabinets are easy to clean, as is the countertop, and if I redid the kitchen, I would likely go with the same white/black theme to match the style of the bungalow home. So why drop all that money on all that when the kitchen is actually perfectly functional and not even that aesthetically unpleasing?
I'm never cooking in there and think, "My food would taste oh-so-much-better and my experience cooking would be oh-so-much-happier if I had a newer kitchen." It just doesn't happen. I have the perfect kitchen work triangle. Really layout rather than aesthetics is what matters. If you have a kitchen that needs to be redesigned because the fridge is super far away or right next to the stove or something else annoying, then redo. But I've seen new kitchens with granite countertops that are a horrible design.
We are about to redo our dated bathroom not because the fixtures are that bad but rather because the original 1920s stack and plumbing are failing. Oh, and the floor slopes so much that the water doesn't drain and the toilet isn't level. These are reasons to redo a bathroom - not because the tile is coral, although in hindsight I do want to kick people who didn't choose neutral colors. But often people remodel to things that will look terrible in 10-20 years - vessel sinks, anyone?
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I firmly believe that stainless steel appliances are this decade's version of "harvest gold appliances" and pink or turquoise tile bathrooms. People will be pointing and giggling at them. And white appliances will still be okay.
And those out-of-style laminate counters are cheap... and last forever. I believe we did our entire kitchen and laundry room in "high end" laminate (I use that term loosely) for $300. My parents' 1964 house has the original laminates and ... they still look mighty good.
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I firmly believe that stainless steel appliances are this decade's version of "harvest gold appliances" and pink or turquoise tile bathrooms. People will be pointing and giggling at them. And white appliances will still be okay.
And those out-of-style laminate counters are cheap... and last forever. I believe we did our entire kitchen and laundry room in "high end" laminate (I use that term loosely) for $300. My parents' 1964 house has the original laminates and ... they still look mighty good.
Yup- pretty sure both SS appliances and granite countertops are already "out" for those who really want their kitchen to be in fashion.
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I firmly believe that stainless steel appliances are this decade's version of "harvest gold appliances" and pink or turquoise tile bathrooms. People will be pointing and giggling at them. And white appliances will still be okay.
And those out-of-style laminate counters are cheap... and last forever. I believe we did our entire kitchen and laundry room in "high end" laminate (I use that term loosely) for $300. My parents' 1964 house has the original laminates and ... they still look mighty good.
Yup- pretty sure both SS appliances and granite countertops are already "out" for those who really want their kitchen to be in fashion.
Are avocado-colored appliances the new trend?
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People still use dining rooms? A small table works fine for food and laptops and bills.
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I firmly believe that stainless steel appliances are this decade's version of "harvest gold appliances" and pink or turquoise tile bathrooms. People will be pointing and giggling at them. And white appliances will still be okay.
And those out-of-style laminate counters are cheap... and last forever. I believe we did our entire kitchen and laundry room in "high end" laminate (I use that term loosely) for $300. My parents' 1964 house has the original laminates and ... they still look mighty good.
Yup- pretty sure both SS appliances and granite countertops are already "out" for those who really want their kitchen to be in fashion.
Are avocado-colored appliances the new trend?
Please say yes! Anyone who knows?
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I firmly believe that stainless steel appliances are this decade's version of "harvest gold appliances" and pink or turquoise tile bathrooms. People will be pointing and giggling at them. And white appliances will still be okay.
And those out-of-style laminate counters are cheap... and last forever. I believe we did our entire kitchen and laundry room in "high end" laminate (I use that term loosely) for $300. My parents' 1964 house has the original laminates and ... they still look mighty good.
Yup- pretty sure both SS appliances and granite countertops are already "out" for those who really want their kitchen to be in fashion.
Are avocado-colored appliances the new trend?
Please say yes! Anyone who knows?
#4 of the 17 kitchen trends listed on HGTV (http://www.hgtv.com/design/rooms/kitchens/17-top-kitchen-design-trends-pictures)
(http://hgtvhome.sndimg.com/content/dam/images/hgtv/fullset/2013/4/26/0/CI-Kohler_Jonathan-Adler-apron-front-sink-tight.jpg.rend.hgtvcom.616.822.jpeg)
Like kitchen cabinets, sinks are trending away from basic white or stainless steel. This eye-catching green apron-front sink by Kohler was designed by tastemaker Jonathan Adler. A colorful sink is a great way to pop in a small amount of color in a neutral kitchen or make it more of a focal point by using the same hue in the backsplash.
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If they're trendy now, I'm excited that I'll get to rent a place with an avocado kitchen in ~20 years. I had a ridiculously pink bathroom a few years ago, but it's not the same. :)
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#4 of the 17 kitchen trends listed on HGTV (http://www.hgtv.com/design/rooms/kitchens/17-top-kitchen-design-trends-pictures)
...
Like kitchen cabinets, sinks are trending away from basic white or stainless steel. This eye-catching green apron-front sink by Kohler was designed by tastemaker Jonathan Adler. A colorful sink is a great way to pop in a small amount of color in a neutral kitchen or make it more of a focal point by using the same hue in the backsplash.
*barf*
Avocado? Are you kidding me? This is a joke, right? Please tell me this is a joke. Do the marketing guys at these companies seriously sit around a table and brainstorm ideas about "how can we get people to throw away their perfectly functional, visually appealing kitchen stuff and buy new stuff?
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Do the marketing guys at these companies seriously sit around a table and brainstorm ideas about "how can we get people to throw away their perfectly functional, visually appealing kitchen stuff and buy new stuff?
Um, yes? This is exactly what they do, in a literal sense. That's the whole point of marketing teams. In any industry.
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Do the marketing guys at these companies seriously sit around a table and brainstorm ideas about "how can we get people to throw away their perfectly functional, visually appealing kitchen stuff and buy new stuff?
Um, yes? This is exactly what they do, in a literal sense. That's the whole point of marketing teams. In any industry.
Yes, I was wondering why the question was so specific to kitchen stuff. Throwing out functional stuff is pretty much the point. Look at the whole fashion industry. While I still wear last year's bought-on-sale blue jeans... every one else's pants are no longer trendy (and "not functional").
And just like fashion, everything that goes out of fashion comes back. There seems to be a 50s flashback trend going on. Wifey has been into that era for pretty much as long as I have known her, making her suddenly (and momentarily) trendy.
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#4 of the 17 kitchen trends listed on HGTV (http://www.hgtv.com/design/rooms/kitchens/17-top-kitchen-design-trends-pictures)
...
Like kitchen cabinets, sinks are trending away from basic white or stainless steel. This eye-catching green apron-front sink by Kohler was designed by tastemaker Jonathan Adler. A colorful sink is a great way to pop in a small amount of color in a neutral kitchen or make it more of a focal point by using the same hue in the backsplash.
*barf*
Avocado? Are you kidding me? This is a joke, right? Please tell me this is a joke.
Hey man! It's rude to barf at others preferences, especially when that other is me.
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#4 of the 17 kitchen trends listed on HGTV (http://www.hgtv.com/design/rooms/kitchens/17-top-kitchen-design-trends-pictures)
...
Like kitchen cabinets, sinks are trending away from basic white or stainless steel. This eye-catching green apron-front sink by Kohler was designed by tastemaker Jonathan Adler. A colorful sink is a great way to pop in a small amount of color in a neutral kitchen or make it more of a focal point by using the same hue in the backsplash.
*barf*
Avocado? Are you kidding me? This is a joke, right? Please tell me this is a joke.
Hey man! It's rude to barf at others preferences, especially when that other is me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWoWHzq21tA
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#4 of the 17 kitchen trends listed on HGTV (http://www.hgtv.com/design/rooms/kitchens/17-top-kitchen-design-trends-pictures)
...
Like kitchen cabinets, sinks are trending away from basic white or stainless steel. This eye-catching green apron-front sink by Kohler was designed by tastemaker Jonathan Adler. A colorful sink is a great way to pop in a small amount of color in a neutral kitchen or make it more of a focal point by using the same hue in the backsplash.
*barf*
Avocado? Are you kidding me? This is a joke, right? Please tell me this is a joke.
Hey man! It's rude to barf at others preferences, especially when that other is me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWoWHzq21tA
Wow. Gold! I'm crying over here.
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I realise this is just a hypothetical situation (or so I wish), but if you're serious about this, my main concern is what you are teaching you child. Or actually that you are not teaching your child to cook or use appliances, instead that eating out is the norm. My two cents.
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I now have a strange urge to run out and:
1) Buy a big old truck; and
2) Fill it with as many avocado and harvest gold colored kitchen appliances and fixtures as I can locate in a 100 mile radius; and
3) Set up an Ebay store and watch the bucks roll in as all those people who ripped out their 1970s kitchens in the past two decades come crawling back to restore the glory of the disco era.
You could absolutely make money doing this (and other people do exactly this). "Retro-chic" and "restored" and all that.
If they're trendy now, I'm excited that I'll get to rent a place with an avocado kitchen in ~20 years. I had a ridiculously pink bathroom a few years ago, but it's not the same. :)
@ Eric - did it have the pepto-bismol pink toilet too? Because I think you and I may have had the exact same toilet. Or color. EVery single person who walked into my bathroom burst out laughing. The polite/shy ones waited until the door closed, but they still laughed.
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@ Eric - did it have the pepto-bismol pink toilet too? Because I think you and I may have had the exact same toilet. Or color. EVery single person who walked into my bathroom burst out laughing. The polite/shy ones waited until the door closed, but they still laughed.
Tub, toilet, countertop, sink, everything. Truly one of a kind. (or so I thought!)
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@ Eric - did it have the pepto-bismol pink toilet too? Because I think you and I may have had the exact same toilet. Or color. EVery single person who walked into my bathroom burst out laughing. The polite/shy ones waited until the door closed, but they still laughed.
Tub, toilet, countertop, sink, everything. Truly one of a kind. (or so I thought!)
http://savethepinkbathrooms.com/ (http://savethepinkbathrooms.com/)