Author Topic: dog ownership  (Read 6704 times)

DeltaBond

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dog ownership
« on: August 04, 2015, 07:54:39 AM »
So after all the talk on the recent thread about someone's son being bit by a neighbor's dog... here is my recent experience.  I have 4 dogs, all under 6 months old, different litters.  I have a 5 ft chain link fence, and a fence inside the fence for the driveway area... or to move the dogs if guests want to sit on the patio, etc.

Neighbor's tiny son was talking to my child through the fence.  Neighbor came out and said he will give his son permission to come inside our fence and play with all of our dogs.  Um, no.  I declined, because as young and excitable as the dogs are, the big one is already 60 lbs, they would at the very least knock the tiny boy down.  We were polite about it, but we told them, "Maybe later on."  We also have never met this particular neighbor before.

My husband at first didn't really see a problem, but I shared with him the recent conversation on here, and he was quickly on board.  All I can do is let someone know not to come in the fence, and do my part in training my dogs.  They are extremely friendly, but they are dogs, and dogs are not always predictable.  People are all happy at the thought of their child playing around dogs until their tiny child gets injured with a happy dog's teeth bumping him, or a dog confused of why someone is coming into the fence gets defensive.  Ugh... either way, turned them away from coming in.

Reasonable,  unreasonable??

« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 08:02:03 AM by DeltaBond »
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bobechs

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Re: dog ownership
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2015, 08:04:17 AM »
Remember the prime directive of the most vocal component of the forum community: the dog comes first.

Not my view, but I'm in a distinct minority on these things.

marcela

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Re: dog ownership
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2015, 08:15:38 AM »
My husband and I get super upset when we're at the dog park and someone from the neighboring playground lets their kid come inside. Our dog does not do well with kids and having an unaccompanied child entire an area where lots of dogs over varying temperament are playing/running around just sounds like a recipe for disaster. I hate that our culture has made it so people think a dog is automatically "friendly" and that I'm being silly if I don't want them approaching and petting my dog. 

sheepstache

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Re: dog ownership
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2015, 08:20:32 AM »
Completely reasonable.

eta: I'm not certain what the post was asking was un/reasonable. I'm saying I think your take on the situation was reasonable.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 08:22:13 AM by sheepstache »

GuitarStv

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Re: dog ownership
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2015, 08:20:42 AM »
Sounds like a good call.

I think that it's reasonable for a well trained dog (with no history of aggression) to meet a younger child for supervised petting.  I wouldn't allow aggressive play of any kind though (throwing/retrieving a ball sure, no to wrestling), and younger dogs don't always know how to behave properly.  Young kids should never be left alone with dogs . . . they occasionally do stupid things that can cause a dog to react unpredictably.

ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

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Re: dog ownership
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2015, 08:42:28 AM »
Yep, you made the right call, for you, your dogs, and the kids.

The_path_less_taken

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Re: dog ownership
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2015, 09:39:57 AM »
I think I would probably have done the same thing.

Or, told the neighbor that because the dog are puppies and not trained, and "accidents happen" with that much activity with young kids and young animals, you are not willing to risk it.

Until you said you'd never met that neighbor before I would have said "but maybe our son could play with yours in your yard" but not knowing them...I would never let the kid go over there until I did and even then...probably not unsupervised until I know they're not running an international child porn empire...

Yeah, what are the odds. But I'm overprotective of young kids.

And dogs.

iamlittlehedgehog

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Re: dog ownership
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2015, 09:56:00 AM »
I'm a rabid dog lover (yes, one of those annoying dog-comes-first people) and you made the right call for everyone involved. You still have puppies and although they may mean well they can get rowdy and someone can get hurt. Or the child may accidentally tug on an ear or try to hug one of the dogs (most dogs don't see this as a sign of affection - at least from a stranger).
In short - good choice and stand by it.

Cromacster

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Re: dog ownership
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2015, 10:03:19 AM »
You made the right call.  Young dogs should not be off-leash around kids, especially if they are not your kids.

Or, told the neighbor that because the dog are puppies and not trained, and "accidents happen" with that much activity with young kids and young animals, you are not willing to risk it.

Gotta be careful with what you say.  Similar to "beware of dog" signage.  By saying accidents happen, or having a beware of dog sign you are essentially admitting that you were aware that your dog could potentially bite someone.  Asinine I know, because all dogs could bite someone, assuming they have teeth.  This varies state to state depending on local laws. 

General advice is to not have beware of dogs signs and don't warn others that your dog may bite them.  Just keep your dog under your control and keep kids under close watch.
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AZDude

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Re: dog ownership
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2015, 10:47:44 AM »
Irresponsible parents for wanting their small child to go play with four large puppies. I never let my child anywhere near a dog unless I know the dog and the owner well. If its a random dog at the park, we look but dont touch. Most of my relatives think I'm crazy overprotective, but I grew up in a house where we practically collected stray dogs. I have been around them, even been bitten once. Most dogs are fine, if you know how to read their body language and remember they are dogs. Kids, especially small kids, cannot pick up on the subtle ways dogs communicate. They just run over and start poking and grabbing.

Given that most dog owners are horribly irresponsible(like most parents... *sigh*), and they do not train their dogs properly, I view any random dog the same way I look at a wild animal.


DeltaBond

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Re: dog ownership
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2015, 10:50:23 AM »
You made the right call.  Young dogs should not be off-leash around kids, especially if they are not your kids.

Or, told the neighbor that because the dog are puppies and not trained, and "accidents happen" with that much activity with young kids and young animals, you are not willing to risk it.

Gotta be careful with what you say.  Similar to "beware of dog" signage.  By saying accidents happen, or having a beware of dog sign you are essentially admitting that you were aware that your dog could potentially bite someone.  Asinine I know, because all dogs could bite someone, assuming they have teeth.  This varies state to state depending on local laws. 

General advice is to not have beware of dogs signs and don't warn others that your dog may bite them.  Just keep your dog under your control and keep kids under close watch.

Ah, this was my next question, do those signs pose any problem.  The meter reader guy came into the fence to read the meter with no problems, my MIL came in and didn't pay the dogs any attention, didn't close the gate OR back door, and they didn't do anything other than try to lick her... but they DO go bananas over children.  I'm glad I haven't put up a sign.  We have that pseudo-quarantine fence area where we can let one dog there with a leash, but hopefully the neighbors won't come back again about it.  I hate it for that little boy, since our dogs just play all day long, entertaining everyone.  It looks like you should be able to just walk in there and join the fun.  sigh
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Cassie

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Re: dog ownership
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2015, 12:36:36 PM »
YOu made the right call.

woodnut

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Re: dog ownership
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2015, 12:48:53 PM »
So after all the talk on the recent thread about someone's son being bit by a neighbor's dog... here is my recent experience.  I have 4 dogs, all under 6 months old, different litters.  I have a 5 ft chain link fence, and a fence inside the fence for the driveway area... or to move the dogs if guests want to sit on the patio, etc.

Neighbor's tiny son was talking to my child through the fence.  Neighbor came out and said he will give his son permission to come inside our fence and play with all of our dogs.  Um, no.  I declined, because as young and excitable as the dogs are, the big one is already 60 lbs, they would at the very least knock the tiny boy down.  We were polite about it, but we told them, "Maybe later on."  We also have never met this particular neighbor before.

My husband at first didn't really see a problem, but I shared with him the recent conversation on here, and he was quickly on board.  All I can do is let someone know not to come in the fence, and do my part in training my dogs.  They are extremely friendly, but they are dogs, and dogs are not always predictable.  People are all happy at the thought of their child playing around dogs until their tiny child gets injured with a happy dog's teeth bumping him, or a dog confused of why someone is coming into the fence gets defensive.  Ugh... either way, turned them away from coming in.

Reasonable,  unreasonable??

I'll give you the perspective of someone who apparently wears milk bone underwear (neighbor's dog bit me just last week and a couple of other unprovoked random dog bites in my past).  You sound like you are a thoughtful reasonable dog owner and would have no problems having you as a dog owning neighbor.  I think you made a prudent decision, polite but on the side of caution. 

Want to buy my neighbor's place?

DeltaBond

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Re: dog ownership
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2015, 05:06:32 AM »
Woodnut, Colorado might be a nice place to live :)

I kinda just want a sign that says "leave my dogs alone".
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Potterquilter

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Re: dog ownership
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2015, 06:28:25 AM »
You by far did the right thing. What is wrong with people.

little_brown_dog

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Re: dog ownership
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2015, 06:40:10 AM »
Reasonable - my dogs are frightened of children (feral rescues, never grew up around kids, get nervous and try to run away when children approach them). they are good dogs and really great with people they know, but if they don't know you they are afraid. if you corner them or force them to meet someone they are obviously afraid of, they will bark and growl.

we always keep our dogs in our fenced yard (supervised) or on leashes whenever we go outside the fenced area (even just taking them to the car). we have had children and parents repeatedly ask to come up and see the dogs, but we always nicely decline and tell them that they are afraid of new people so it is best to just wave and say hi from a distance. every single parent we know has been extremely appreciative of the fact that we are open about our dogs' limitations. knowing their limits allows everyone to live safely together.

our fence has a beware of dog sign because we believe it is important to notify people that there are large canines on our premises who may be defensive if someone enters without permission (especially since our yard is large and people may not be able to actually see the dogs until they are inside).  in our state, our dog laws allow dogs to bite defensively (protection of self, owners, property) so i'm not worried about the liability of having the sign. the person would have to walk up through our property and open our back gate or break into our house to come into contact with the dogs (there is 0 reason for any maintenance crew, post man, or neighbor to do this without us knowing). if you are in our yard or house and we don't know about it, you are obviously not supposed to be there.

captainawesome

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Re: dog ownership
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2015, 10:33:47 AM »
You made the right call. Hopefully the neighbor explained well enough to the child the reasons why it isn't a good idea to just jump in with the dogs, and reduce the curiousity factor.  We have two dogs, and I'm always glad when people ask to pet the dogs, especially those with small children.  We have poodle mixes, and we can't go anywhere without someone stopping to ask about them or try to pet them, so I have become fairly well aware of how they will act, tell tale signs they are uncomfortable etc.  But I wouldn't just leave them unsupervised with the dogs in the backyard. As was stated previously, dogs have minds of their own, and even playful bites and roughouse between dogs are not received the same when interacting with unfamiliar humans. 

DeltaBond

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Re: dog ownership
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2015, 11:37:26 AM »
You by far did the right thing. What is wrong with people.

After seeing the other thread about someone trying to find a way to handle a dog bite situation, and seeing a LOT of ridiculous responses on the thread, I don't know what's wrong with people... really don't know.

I see more untrained dogs than trained dogs, and I see more untrained kids than trained kids, lol
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AerynLee

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Re: dog ownership
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2015, 11:53:23 AM »
You by far did the right thing. What is wrong with people.

After seeing the other thread about someone trying to find a way to handle a dog bite situation, and seeing a LOT of ridiculous responses on the thread, I don't know what's wrong with people... really don't know.

I see more untrained dogs than trained dogs, and I see more untrained kids than trained kids, lol
I have the overly happy, smiling dog you see to the left which is a blessing and a major PITA. You would not believe how often random kids have pulled his ears, hair, and tail, ran up and give him a hug, and in one case reach around his stomach and try to pick him up. That kind of stupidity rarely happened with my Dane (though one time I had both dogs out by myself and a group of preteen girls ran at me squeeling in excitement). Luckily for these kids he's very well behaved and the worst he's done is snap at a kid that pulled his tail hair (as a "knock it off" warning, not even trying to make contact), but I just wonder how often stupid kids do that stuff to a dog that isn't so gentle.

My nephew at around age 7 was bit in the face by a dog and needed stitches....I wasn't there but judging by my nephew's personality and the breed of the dog (pit bull) I'm going to guess it was a combination of badly behaved kid and a shitty dog owner

I agree with everyone else, you did the right thing with your neighbor. Good for the kid and good for your dogs

sheepstache

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Re: dog ownership
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2015, 11:59:24 AM »
Actually I guess my mom is one of those dogs-come-first people as she's devoted her retirement to working for a rescue organization, but her views still align with yours. Dogs-as-pets only works because of the rules of domestication which say that humans are more important than dogs; but dogs-come-first in the sense that dog training is actually about training the owner.

She actually re-taught her dogs their commands in a foreign language because she says when she takes them out for walks now people are more hesitant to let their kids run up to the dogs if they think she's a crazy foreigner.

sunday

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Re: dog ownership
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2015, 12:02:40 PM »
I think you did the right thing. I do not let kids touch my dog unless I know beyond certainty the kid knows how to act around dogs. My dog loves all people, but it's still a dog and you don't know what will happen if it is hurt by a kid who doesn't know how to be nice to animals. I firmly tell unknown kids who run up to my dog "NO, stay away please" because it seems some parents don't teach their kids that you don't run up to strange animals you do not know.

RobinAZ

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Re: dog ownership
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2015, 10:34:21 PM »
My very sweet, loves everyone, basset hound just bit me the other night. He was asleep in bed, having a dream I guess, I woke him by moving my legs and he was startled and bit me. He is 70lbs and it is a huge bruise.  He was hysterical afterwards-- tail under, shaking like a leak, wet himself... I wasn't even mad at him but I certainly yelled in pain loud enough to wake the rest of the neighborhood. 

People LOVE to touch him.  Kids try to pull on his ears.  He is like a magnet for stupid and he takes it all in stride but even the "sweetest" dog can get scared, and esp. of children who are very young and/or don't have parents who have trained them to stand back-ask permission-wait- approach as directed. 

As a dog owner, mother AND lawyer-- good call.

vagon

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Re: dog ownership
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2015, 11:35:19 PM »
I would just be careful insulating your dogs from kids. Its very important that they socialise with kids and are trained in there presence.
If you dont socialise them around kids that are "outside the pack" you wont ever know how they may react when they are older.

Alchemilla

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Re: dog ownership
« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2015, 03:16:46 AM »
Completely reasonable.

Daft parents next door, they were just thinking of what their child wanted.
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DeltaBond

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Re: dog ownership
« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2015, 05:46:07 AM »
RobinAZ... your Basset Hound is 70 POUNDS!?  Ya know, I saw what I thought was a mutant basset hound in Home Depot a few weeks ago, I had no idea they got that big.  The only ones I've seen were barely bigger than a cat.

Vagon... I'm not going to start testing my dogs with random kids whom I don't know.  They've been super friendly with everyone when we've taken them to trails and parks, though.  I was more afraid of the accidental happy toothy puppy party they like to thrust on people.

Alchemilla... I've always wondered, what exactly does "daft" mean?  Ignorant and harmless?
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Cromacster

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Re: dog ownership
« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2015, 06:40:51 AM »
I would just be careful insulating your dogs from kids. Its very important that they socialise with kids and are trained in there presence.
If you dont socialise them around kids that are "outside the pack" you wont ever know how they may react when they are older.

I agree this is very important when raising and training a dog.  But it's different than letting a kid run around in your yard with 5 loose dogs.
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sunday

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Re: dog ownership
« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2015, 09:36:29 AM »
Personally, I insulate all dogs under my control from anyone who may scream wildly next to them, hit them, pull their tails, poke their eyes, or do anything that may incite a retaliatory response. Of any age. But I don't have kids or have kids who come over to my house.

vagon

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Re: dog ownership
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2015, 06:32:22 PM »
Vagon... I'm not going to start testing my dogs with random kids whom I don't know.  They've been super friendly with everyone when we've taken them to trails and parks, though.  I was more afraid of the accidental happy toothy puppy party they like to thrust on people.

Cool sounds like they're well adjusted then!

My little pup (10mths) in is too exuberant with little kids (and prams!) so I completely sympathise with not wnated to have an incident

bsmith

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Re: dog ownership
« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2015, 06:59:43 PM »
Quote
Gotta be careful with what you say.  Similar to "beware of dog" signage.  By saying accidents happen, or having a beware of dog sign you are essentially admitting that you were aware that your dog could potentially bite someone.  Asinine I know, because all dogs could bite someone, assuming they have teeth.  This varies state to state depending on local laws.

General advice is to not have beware of dogs signs and don't warn others that your dog may bite them.  Just keep your dog under your control and keep kids under close watch.

I've got a sign that says "Be aware of the dog".

She's an 18 lb terrier that sounds six feet tall.

Monkey stache

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Re: dog ownership
« Reply #29 on: August 06, 2015, 07:31:18 PM »
Completely reasonable. Even when your dogs are full grown and trained, they could still bite when provoked. If you don't know the child then you don't know if that child knows how to properly handle dogs. Even the tamest dogs can bite or nip when provoked by mishandling. And this is coming from a crazy dog lover.

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Potterquilter

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Re: dog ownership
« Reply #30 on: August 07, 2015, 06:12:49 AM »
Read this article

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_States

Per the CDC there are almost five million reported dog bites a year in the U.S.  Last year there were 42 people killed.

http://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-statistics-fatalities-2014.php




Basenji

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Re: dog ownership
« Reply #31 on: August 07, 2015, 06:16:46 AM »
Personally, I insulate all dogs under my control from anyone who may scream wildly next to them, hit them, pull their tails, poke their eyes, or do anything that may incite a retaliatory response. Of any age. But I don't have kids or have kids who come over to my house.

I insulate myself from this as well.

Cromacster

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Re: dog ownership
« Reply #32 on: August 07, 2015, 07:32:45 AM »
Quote
Gotta be careful with what you say.  Similar to "beware of dog" signage.  By saying accidents happen, or having a beware of dog sign you are essentially admitting that you were aware that your dog could potentially bite someone.  Asinine I know, because all dogs could bite someone, assuming they have teeth.  This varies state to state depending on local laws.

General advice is to not have beware of dogs signs and don't warn others that your dog may bite them.  Just keep your dog under your control and keep kids under close watch.

I've got a sign that says "Be aware of the dog".

She's an 18 lb terrier that sounds six feet tall.

I'd still be wary of having a sign.  *Terriers are notorious for being nasty little bastards.  To an adult they may not pose much of a threat, but they can mess a child up bad.  If the unforatunate event where a child is bit by the dog that sign could be used against you.

*Of course not all terriers, but they were originally bred for mouse and rat control.  They have incredibly high prey drive.  The stereotypical small dog doesn't get the proper control and outlet for such a high prey drive.  This is why many terriers and other small dogs are little bastards.
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Potterquilter

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Re: dog ownership
« Reply #33 on: August 07, 2015, 12:28:35 PM »
From master hit the nail on the head. Breeds were bred for uses before modern people got their hands on them. We had a Chesapeake bay retriever. They were bred to retrieve game shot down over water and guard boats when the hunger went into town to sell the game. They can be very territorial. Many of the modern problem breeds were bred by idiots to fight to the death.

Since we have such a high percentage of bike riders here I am surprised we don't have more reports of dog problems. I have been chases several times. One day a mailman stopped to help me as I was fending off a dog with my bike.

I think most dogs were used and bred for years and years to protect, herd animals, catch rodents and so on. Lying around a house then being put on a six foot leash for a slow walk seems sad to me.

bsmith

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Re: dog ownership
« Reply #34 on: August 07, 2015, 02:03:20 PM »
Quote
I'd still be wary of having a sign.  *Terriers are notorious for being nasty little bastards.  To an adult they may not pose much of a threat, but they can mess a child up bad.  If the unforatunate event where a child is bit by the dog that sign could be used against you.

*Of course not all terriers, but they were originally bred for mouse and rat control.  They have incredibly high prey drive.  The stereotypical small dog doesn't get the proper control and outlet for such a high prey drive.  This is why many terriers and other small dogs are little bastards.

It's obviously a joke sign. It's not one of those red and black warning signs.

I don't have kids, and none come over, so I don't worry. The last time a kid was over was about four years ago when my niece came inside briefly. The dog ran up to say hi and lick her, and the kid kicked her. Kicked her! On purpose! Not out of fear, but because that's what her parents taught her to do to dogs, because another family member apparently had a bad mannered little dog. So they taught her to kick them. WTF. As if teaching a toddler to kick dogs can lead to anything good. She hasn't been back since, and never will be.

DeltaBond

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Re: dog ownership
« Reply #35 on: August 08, 2015, 05:24:42 AM »
Potterquilter - they make a product to keep strapped to your bike called "Halt", or something similar, its like mace for dogs.  Great for bike riding, I used to keep it on mine when I went mountain biking, due to the wild dogs in the area where I was biking. 

bsmith, I'm not one to worry about 'insulating' my dogs from anything, as someone mentioned on here.  I'm not raising them to be debutantes and pillars of society.  Kids are just as unpredictable, and parents teach kids odd things sometimes out of defense reasons, since kids are sometimes smaller than the dog.  I'd have given that child and their parent an ear full for kicking any one of my dogs.
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