Author Topic: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)  (Read 12165 times)

Jaguar Paw

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 147
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Texas!!
Ticket Scalping has such a negative connotation. Does anyone buy event tickets only for the purpose of selling them (legally) for a profit? When Adele tickets went on sale, I fired up the computer and bought two tickets in a city 1,500 miles away. I spent just under $300 for two lower level tickets and a month or so ago I sold them for just under $1,000 total. After stub hub took out a fee, I made just over $600 for buying 2 Adele tickets. I wish I bought more. I am contemplating doing some research and getting into this.

Anyone have any success?

Thanks!

justajane

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2147
  • Location: Midwest
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2016, 10:00:36 AM »
I'm sure people do it. As someone who just went to try to buy $40 tickets to a concert I wanted to attend in four months, only to find the lowest I could get was $80 from secondary vendors, I can't say I would do that to other people.

Jaguar Paw

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 147
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Texas!!
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2016, 10:06:00 AM »
I'm sure people do it. As someone who just went to try to buy $40 tickets to a concert I wanted to attend in four months, only to find the lowest I could get was $80 from secondary vendors, I can't say I would do that to other people.

To be fair... I listed my tickets at ten dollars lower than any other available listings. Though I was screwing people, I was screwing them less than everyone else.

Jaguar Paw

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 147
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Texas!!
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2016, 10:08:23 AM »
And is it really much different than buying a stock low and selling high? The person that buys Apple now is obviously getting the short end of the stick compared to an individual that bought 15 years ago. I just had the vision that investing in Adele was going to be worth more later..

GrOW

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 273
    • Gringing Out Wealth
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2016, 10:11:02 AM »
I think it's a fair option a few times a year. Making it a side job seems unlikely though.

A friend sells his SEC championship, football, tix most years for 4-6x face value. Seems to put in close to zero effort.

FIRE me

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1099
  • Location: Louisville, KY
  • So much technology, so little talent.
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2016, 10:42:50 AM »
And is it really much different than buying a stock low and selling high? The person that buys Apple now is obviously getting the short end of the stick compared to an individual that bought 15 years ago. I just had the vision that investing in Adele was going to be worth more later..

I think it's a nasty thing to do. There are only so many tickets and they are already overpriced. It is far different from stocks. Stocks are meant to be bought and sold. No entertainer that I know of goes on tour with the hope that the scalpers will make money.

justajane

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2147
  • Location: Midwest
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2016, 10:59:53 AM »
And is it really much different than buying a stock low and selling high? The person that buys Apple now is obviously getting the short end of the stick compared to an individual that bought 15 years ago. I just had the vision that investing in Adele was going to be worth more later..

I think it's a nasty thing to do. There are only so many tickets and they are already overpriced. It is far different from stocks. Stocks are meant to be bought and sold. No entertainer that I know of goes on tour with the hope that the scalpers will make money.

Not only that, but now I'm not going to the concert. $80 a ticket is just more than I'm willing to pay. I would have paid the $40 rate. I might try to show up that night or see if someone who intended to go to the concert but just couldn't will sell them to me for closer to the actual value of the concert. But otherwise? I'm not going.

So, in my opinion, scalpers suck. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you're shielded from other people thinking you suck for doing it. No argument/supposed corollary anyone makes is going to change my mind.

Jaguar Paw

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 147
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Texas!!
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2016, 01:41:14 PM »
"Ticket Reinvestment". Not scalping. Y'all must be thinking of something completely different.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 13627
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2016, 01:55:49 PM »
And is it really much different than buying a stock low and selling high? The person that buys Apple now is obviously getting the short end of the stick compared to an individual that bought 15 years ago. I just had the vision that investing in Adele was going to be worth more later..

I think it's a nasty thing to do. There are only so many tickets and they are already overpriced. It is far different from stocks. Stocks are meant to be bought and sold. No entertainer that I know of goes on tour with the hope that the scalpers will make money.

Not only that, but now I'm not going to the concert. $80 a ticket is just more than I'm willing to pay. I would have paid the $40 rate. I might try to show up that night or see if someone who intended to go to the concert but just couldn't will sell them to me for closer to the actual value of the concert. But otherwise? I'm not going.

So, in my opinion, scalpers suck. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you're shielded from other people thinking you suck for doing it. No argument/supposed corollary anyone makes is going to change my mind.

Yeah, totally different than stock investing.  When you invest in the market you're providing businesses with capital that they use to grow.

Ticket scalping either deprives someone who wants to see a show of the chance, or raises the cost of attending a show for zero benefit to the person going or the artist.  It's purely anti-social behavior.

retiringearly

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 341
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2016, 02:01:34 PM »
I have no issue with buying or selling scalped tickets.   It is a free market.

seattlecyclone

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4813
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2016, 02:08:55 PM »
And is it really much different than buying a stock low and selling high? The person that buys Apple now is obviously getting the short end of the stick compared to an individual that bought 15 years ago. I just had the vision that investing in Adele was going to be worth more later..

I think it's a nasty thing to do. There are only so many tickets and they are already overpriced. It is far different from stocks. Stocks are meant to be bought and sold. No entertainer that I know of goes on tour with the hope that the scalpers will make money.

This part is false. There's a difference between high priced and overpriced. If they were overpriced, they would not sell out five minutes after going on sale.

Dollar Slice

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4527
  • Age: 42
  • Location: New York City
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2016, 03:01:18 PM »
As an avid live music attendee, I think it is a really rotten thing to do, for reasons mentioned above. Rampant ticket scalping has made it difficult to see popular acts - both because the tickets get snapped up and sold out quickly and then immediately resold for much higher prices, and also because the anti-scalping and anti-bot measures taken by ticket sellers, venues, and artists make the everything more difficult for regular fans.

I recently ended up with an extra pair of tickets to a show that I wanted to sell at face value to another fan, but I can't because the anti-scalping barriers in place at the venue prevented me from getting transferable tickets (will call only, can only pick up day of the show). Stuck with $140 worth of tickets I can't use or sell because people like you had to try and game the system. Thanks so much.

Kaikou

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 503
  • Location: United States
  • Kermit is like a box of chocolates
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2016, 03:43:53 PM »
This has become a moral debate. But I don't see anything wrong with what you are doing. No one is forcing you to buy

geekette

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1841
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2016, 03:58:39 PM »
Scalpers are just one tiny step above those who price gouge after a hurricane. 

justajane

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2147
  • Location: Midwest
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2016, 05:23:07 PM »
This has become a moral debate. But I don't see anything wrong with what you are doing. No one is forcing you to buy

I don't think it's immoral. But I still think someone is a douche for doing it. You can dislike something someone does without thinking it's wrong, especially when their behavior has a direct effect on your ability to do something enjoyable for the price agreed upon between the artist and the venue.

seattlecyclone

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4813
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2016, 05:23:32 PM »
Yeah, I still don't see any problem with this, moral or otherwise. There are a limited number of tickets to any event. We have to use some mechanism to allocate these tickets. We use market pricing for pretty much every other good and service in our economy. Why should event tickets be any different?

The anti-reselling folks would say that the fairest method, instead of market pricing, is to give the tickets to whoever waits in line the longest or whoever is able to log into TicketMaster at the exact instant the tickets become available. However this is hardly a perfect system. I know I don't like to camp out in lines and I'm often unable to be online at certain times of the day. If I fall into that boat, why shouldn't I be able to pay a mutually agreeable price to someone who was able to jump through the hoops?

Of course my preference would be to see most of the money go to the people running the show rather than middlemen. I'd love to see TicketMaster (or whoever) implement an auction system so that there would be little to no profit margin to be made from reselling tickets. But if the organizers insist on setting fixed prices significantly below what the market will bear, I have no problem with someone taking a risk on what they see as an opportunity for arbitrage.

justajane

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2147
  • Location: Midwest
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2016, 05:30:23 PM »
The anti-reselling folks would say that the fairest method, instead of market pricing, is to give the tickets to whoever waits in line the longest or whoever is able to log into TicketMaster at the exact instant the tickets become available.

Um, I'm guessing that the tickets would still be available to the October concert I want to attend if the scalpers hadn't bought them all.

The reason fans have to log in to Ticketmaster "the exact instant the tickets become available" is precisely because of scalpers. In my case, if the band were popular enough to sell out just to fans the minute the tickets went on sale, then I'm guessing they still wouldn't be available for purchase on Stubhub. Those would be snapped up at a 100% markup.

seattlecyclone

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4813
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2016, 05:44:12 PM »
The anti-reselling folks would say that the fairest method, instead of market pricing, is to give the tickets to whoever waits in line the longest or whoever is able to log into TicketMaster at the exact instant the tickets become available.

Um, I'm guessing that the tickets would still be available to the October concert I want to attend if the scalpers hadn't bought them all.

The reason fans have to log in to Ticketmaster "the exact instant the tickets become available" is precisely because of scalpers. In my case, if the band were popular enough to sell out just to fans the minute the tickets went on sale, then I'm guessing they still wouldn't be available for purchase on Stubhub. Those would be snapped up at a 100% markup.

But why did the resellers buy the tickets in the first place? If the number of people who would be willing to see the show for face value is exactly the same as the capacity of the venue, there would be no profit to be made on reselling. Any markup on their part would mean they can't sell some of their tickets, and they would therefore lose money.

Dollar Slice

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4527
  • Age: 42
  • Location: New York City
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2016, 06:03:03 PM »
But why did the resellers buy the tickets in the first place? If the number of people who would be willing to see the show for face value is exactly the same as the capacity of the venue, there would be no profit to be made on reselling. Any markup on their part would mean they can't sell some of their tickets, and they would therefore lose money.

This makes no sense. This would only be true in a completely rational market (haha rational music fans!) and if the tickets were already priced exactly perfectly.

This is what actually happens:

10,000 tickets go on sale for Popular Band. Say exactly 10,000 fans want to go. Popular Band are cool people who try to keep their tickets affordable for, e.g., teenagers and college students who haven't got much money.
5,000 snapped up at face value by fans.
5,000 snapped up by scalpers.
5,000 fans are unable to get tickets at face value, and are forced to choose between staying home or paying higher prices from scalpers.
Scalpers sell 3,000 at a large price inflation, 1,000 at face or a slight loss, and lose money on the last 1,000 because 10% of fans refuse to pay their prices and stay home or buy last-minute cut-price tickets when the scalpers are desperate to offload them.
Fans who buy those scalped tickets get screwed twice because most of them are paying outrageous fees on Stubhub, eBay, etc. on top of the already jacked-up secondary market ticket prices.

Ticketmaster makes their money, the band makes their money, the scalpers make their money, Stubhub/eBay make their money, music fans lose.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 13627
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2016, 06:16:21 PM »
Scalpers are just one tiny step above those who price gouge after a hurricane.

Yes, this is an apt analogy.

Rosy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2035
  • Location: Florida
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2016, 06:19:39 PM »
@Dollar Slice - I don't quite understand why you couldn't sell your tickets? How would you even know if your ticket is resellable or not? If Jaguar Paw could buy them online and then resell, why couldn't you?


seattlecyclone

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4813
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2016, 06:27:39 PM »
But why did the resellers buy the tickets in the first place? If the number of people who would be willing to see the show for face value is exactly the same as the capacity of the venue, there would be no profit to be made on reselling. Any markup on their part would mean they can't sell some of their tickets, and they would therefore lose money.

This makes no sense. This would only be true in a completely rational market (haha rational music fans!) and if the tickets were already priced exactly perfectly.

Yes, this is exactly my point. If the tickets are priced perfectly, there's no way for a reseller to win. If the tickets are priced somewhere in the right ballpark of perfection, the reseller still can't win because StubHub fees would eat up all the profit. The only way for them to win is if the tickets are priced so far below perfectly that there's room for two middlemen (the reseller and StubHub) to earn a decent profit. It seems that this is the case for a significant fraction of events. Why?

In your example, why wouldn't the band price the best 3,000 seats a bit higher so that they get the money instead of the ticket reseller? Those fans were clearly willing to pay that much, so that should have been the price all along! I'll concede that perfect pricing is hard, but like I said above you don't need to price perfectly. As long as you get in the right ballpark, the reseller's risk of losing money is too great compared to the potential profit to be gained, so they'll go away.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 13627
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2016, 06:31:38 PM »
But why did the resellers buy the tickets in the first place? If the number of people who would be willing to see the show for face value is exactly the same as the capacity of the venue, there would be no profit to be made on reselling. Any markup on their part would mean they can't sell some of their tickets, and they would therefore lose money.

This makes no sense. This would only be true in a completely rational market (haha rational music fans!) and if the tickets were already priced exactly perfectly.

Yes, this is exactly my point. If the tickets are priced perfectly, there's no way for a reseller to win. If the tickets are priced somewhere in the right ballpark of perfection, the reseller still can't win because StubHub fees would eat up all the profit. The only way for them to win is if the tickets are priced so far below perfectly that there's room for two middlemen (the reseller and StubHub) to earn a decent profit. It seems that this is the case for a significant fraction of events. Why?

In your example, why wouldn't the band price the best 3,000 seats a bit higher so that they get the money instead of the ticket reseller? Those fans were clearly willing to pay that much, so that should have been the price all along! I'll concede that perfect pricing is hard, but like I said above you don't need to price perfectly. As long as you get in the right ballpark, the reseller's risk of losing money is too great compared to the potential profit to be gained, so they'll go away.

Some bands aren't trying to maximize profit, but want more people to be able to experience their music.

seattlecyclone

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4813
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2016, 06:38:05 PM »
But why did the resellers buy the tickets in the first place? If the number of people who would be willing to see the show for face value is exactly the same as the capacity of the venue, there would be no profit to be made on reselling. Any markup on their part would mean they can't sell some of their tickets, and they would therefore lose money.

This makes no sense. This would only be true in a completely rational market (haha rational music fans!) and if the tickets were already priced exactly perfectly.

Yes, this is exactly my point. If the tickets are priced perfectly, there's no way for a reseller to win. If the tickets are priced somewhere in the right ballpark of perfection, the reseller still can't win because StubHub fees would eat up all the profit. The only way for them to win is if the tickets are priced so far below perfectly that there's room for two middlemen (the reseller and StubHub) to earn a decent profit. It seems that this is the case for a significant fraction of events. Why?

In your example, why wouldn't the band price the best 3,000 seats a bit higher so that they get the money instead of the ticket reseller? Those fans were clearly willing to pay that much, so that should have been the price all along! I'll concede that perfect pricing is hard, but like I said above you don't need to price perfectly. As long as you get in the right ballpark, the reseller's risk of losing money is too great compared to the potential profit to be gained, so they'll go away.

Some bands aren't trying to maximize profit, but want more people to be able to experience their music.

Then they should schedule more shows. There are only so many seats in the venue. That's how many people will be able to experience their music, regardless of what the price is. If you want to set some seats aside for super fans who don't have much money, then set up a day-of-show line waiting system or something, but don't underprice the majority of your seats and act all indignant when people decide to establish a secondary market.

Dollar Slice

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4527
  • Age: 42
  • Location: New York City
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2016, 06:38:49 PM »
@Dollar Slice - I don't quite understand why you couldn't sell your tickets? How would you even know if your ticket is resellable or not? If Jaguar Paw could buy them online and then resell, why couldn't you?

Because different events are different. Adele apparently doesn't give a shit about scalpers fleecing her fans, but some do, and they put barriers in place to make it difficult or impossible to transfer tickets to a third party. (The purpose being to make it impossible to scalp tickets.) I can only get the tickets if I go in person to the concert and show my ID and the credit card I used to buy them. I can't get them in advance and I can't transfer them to another person unless I personally escort them to the show and pick up the tickets and hand them to them an hour in advance. This means I can't put them on eBay or Stubhub or any other ticket reselling sites.

It depresses me that people are arguing that bands should be forced to take more money from their fans or face the consequences. What kind of world do you people live in? :-/

seattlecyclone

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4813
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2016, 06:47:04 PM »
It depresses me that people are arguing that bands should be forced to take more money from their fans or face the consequences. What kind of world do you people live in? :-/

I live in a capitalist world. What kind do you live in?

Dollar Slice

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4527
  • Age: 42
  • Location: New York City
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #26 on: July 04, 2016, 06:49:21 PM »
It depresses me that people are arguing that bands should be forced to take more money from their fans or face the consequences. What kind of world do you people live in? :-/

I live in a capitalist world. What kind do you live in?

I live in a world where humanity, equality and fairness is more important than desperate, naked greed. I like mine better.

seattlecyclone

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4813
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #27 on: July 04, 2016, 06:54:01 PM »
It depresses me that people are arguing that bands should be forced to take more money from their fans or face the consequences. What kind of world do you people live in? :-/

I live in a capitalist world. What kind do you live in?

I live in a world where humanity, equality and fairness is more important than desperate, naked greed. I like mine better.

See, I just don't buy the fairness argument here. Suppose you have 10,000 tickets priced at $30, but 30,000 people would be willing to buy them at that price. Clearly 20,000 people will go without. How is this system fairer to these 20,000 people than a system where the 10,000 people who value the tickets the most get to have them?

Dollar Slice

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4527
  • Age: 42
  • Location: New York City
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #28 on: July 04, 2016, 07:02:49 PM »
See, I just don't buy the fairness argument here. Suppose you have 10,000 tickets priced at $30, but 30,000 people would be willing to buy them at that price. Clearly 20,000 people will go without. How is this system fairer to these 20,000 people than a system where the 10,000 people who value the tickets the most get to have them?

Money does not equal value. A lawyer raking in $250,000 a year will be willing and able to pay a lot more for a ticket than your average college student, even if the college student is the absolute biggest fan of the band in the entire world. I've been at many shows where this sort of thing happened and I ended up sitting with a bunch of overpaid assholes who thought this was "the place to be" this weekend because someone told them it sold out in five minutes, and they bought $1000 worth of tickets online, talked over the music and generally acted like shitheads the entire time, ruining the experience for both the fans and the band. But they had money and wanted to impress their dates with tickets to a sold-out show, so whatevs. CAPITALISM WINS AGAIN!

Ticket scalping is simply a way to make money off of making other people's lives worse. A sizable percentage of the population thinks it's wrong and immoral. In many places there are laws against it (or strongly regulating it). I obviously can't stop you, but it's pretty clearly a shitty thing to do.

retiringearly

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 341
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #29 on: July 04, 2016, 07:03:49 PM »
Scalpers are just one tiny step above those who price gouge after a hurricane.

Ummm, no.  Consumers after a hurricane NEED basic items to survive.  Concert goers do not NEED concert tickets.

FIRE me

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1099
  • Location: Louisville, KY
  • So much technology, so little talent.
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #30 on: July 04, 2016, 07:33:08 PM »
And is it really much different than buying a stock low and selling high? The person that buys Apple now is obviously getting the short end of the stick compared to an individual that bought 15 years ago. I just had the vision that investing in Adele was going to be worth more later..

I think it's a nasty thing to do. There are only so many tickets and they are already overpriced. It is far different from stocks. Stocks are meant to be bought and sold. No entertainer that I know of goes on tour with the hope that the scalpers will make money.

This part is false. There's a difference between high priced and overpriced. If they were overpriced, they would not sell out five minutes after going on sale.

A thing does not have to fail to sell to be overpriced.

Jaguar Paw

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 147
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Texas!!
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #31 on: July 04, 2016, 07:41:14 PM »
Goodness Gracious! So much excitement on Independence Day! With so many people to respond to, I can really only pick out two people to respond to.
First off: How is re selling tickets only one step above people hiking up prices after a hurricane? Selling the commodity of two Adele tickets to two people willing to pay an absurd price is a universe away from charging 8 bucks for a gallon of water because that individual needs it to survive.

Second: How is an individual selling tickets an increased amount making anyones life worse? Yes, because I bought two tickets, two people that could not be on ticketmaster at the exact time, with 4 different computers, did not get to go see the show. But, I also provided the opportunity for two people to see the wonderful voice that is Adele that couldn't be on the computer at the correct time. Those two people were just willing to pay a ridiculous price.

I understand people thinking that it may be slightly sketchy (immoral doesn't seem like the correct word), but I really don't see it that way. I think that people just get emotional about it because we can identify with having it suck to pay extra for tickets. But, that doesn't make it immoral. If someone buys a high demand/low supply product with the idea of making it a profit, does that make it automatically immoral? My stock market comparison may have been a bit off track but many things are bought with the intention of being sold at a profit. If I buy gold now with the plan of selling it at a profit in a year, have I defrauded the public of their ability to buy gold? Maybe that is still too off base? If a limited edition copy of a book comes out and I buy a copy of it to later sell at a profit, am I still immoral and one step above price gouging after a hurricane?

Also, JustaJane, you may want to contact the venue and Stubhub to see if you can sell your tickets. Frequently events will claim that you need to show id/original payment etc but from my one experience, they are bluffing. It is worth a shot to call Stubhub because they will not allow you to list tickets if that is the case. And they only take 10%

Jaguar Paw

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 147
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Texas!!
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #32 on: July 04, 2016, 07:46:03 PM »
Just thought of another example that is prominent on these threads: house flipping.

Because person A buys a house for 100K because they feel that they can later sell it for 250K to person B, does that make person A immoral? I am sure that the original builder didn't build the house with the plan of person A buying it and selling it for a profit to person B.

Everyone should know that I am taking no offense to any of this and like the good talk.

retiringearly

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 341
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #33 on: July 04, 2016, 07:55:48 PM »
And is it really much different than buying a stock low and selling high? The person that buys Apple now is obviously getting the short end of the stick compared to an individual that bought 15 years ago. I just had the vision that investing in Adele was going to be worth more later..

I think it's a nasty thing to do. There are only so many tickets and they are already overpriced. It is far different from stocks. Stocks are meant to be bought and sold. No entertainer that I know of goes on tour with the hope that the scalpers will make money.

This part is false. There's a difference between high priced and overpriced. If they were overpriced, they would not sell out five minutes after going on sale.

A thing does not have to fail to sell to be overpriced.

Actually, it does.

Dollar Slice

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4527
  • Age: 42
  • Location: New York City
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #34 on: July 04, 2016, 08:12:15 PM »
Jaguar Paw: What you're missing with your examples is that a concert is a unique, one-of-a-kind experience that will never happen again (at least not in the same way). If you miss it or are prevented from going by scalpers, you missed it forever. It's not fungible like gold or money or stock shares. House flipping seems unrelated - houses are virtually all priced at what the market will bear, and it's extremely uncommon for someone to buy a house and immediately resell it at a huge profit without doing work on it to make it more valuable.

Price gouging is on a spectrum. Gouging on things like water and gasoline are horrible. Food? Well, that's bad, but I mean, people don't NEED chocolate and frozen pizzas, so maybe gouging on THIS food isn't AS bad... (devil's advocate). Gouging on certain consumer goods like the year's hottest Christmas toys etc. is fairly shitty because you are basically fucking over kids from poorer families. Gouging on things like concert tickets and sporting events is shitty because you are preventing people from experiencing a one-of-a-kind event that they care about a lot. Gouging on luxury goods and collectibles is I think the least offensive - they're not unique, no one needs them, people will have the chance to get another one later when the hype dies down, etc.

I have a hard time believing that you really don't understand how ticket scalping makes people's lives worse. But sure. Let's go for it.

1. People who would otherwise get face value tickets had to either not go to the show, or spend more of their hard-earned money. Negative impact, either way.
2. Everyone has to deal with all kinds of anti-scalping measures when buying tickets and attending concerts, which is a hassle. In my personal experience, this has included: very long lines to get in (because everyone has to have ID checked), waiting in very long lines to buy tickets (because the artist/venue believed it was the only way to prevent scalping), having to make plans further in advance, having to do those stupid CAPTCHA things, being unable to sell some tickets when you can't make it to a show because of illness or emergency, having to be late for a show because you couldn't pass out tickets to friends ahead of time and one friend got stuck in traffic... that's just off the top of my head.
3. Buying from secondhand ticket sites or eBay hugely increases the odds of you getting scammed (this has happened to me)
4. Going to see a band you care about a lot, only to sit next to a bunch of noisy drunken assholes who didn't care about the music, but they have a buttload of money so they just bought whatever ticket was "hot" on Stubhub that weekend to impress their date. In the old days, the front rows were the biggest fans and it was really fun for the band and the fans. Now it is like half biggest fans and half richest assholes.

Jaguar Paw

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 147
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Texas!!
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #35 on: July 04, 2016, 08:29:27 PM »
Jaguar Paw: What you're missing with your examples is that a concert is a unique, one-of-a-kind experience that will never happen again (at least not in the same way). If you miss it or are prevented from going by scalpers, you missed it forever. It's not fungible like gold or money or stock shares. House flipping seems unrelated - houses are virtually all priced at what the market will bear, and it's extremely uncommon for someone to buy a house and immediately resell it at a huge profit without doing work on it to make it more valuable.

Price gouging is on a spectrum. Gouging on things like water and gasoline are horrible. Food? Well, that's bad, but I mean, people don't NEED chocolate and frozen pizzas, so maybe gouging on THIS food isn't AS bad... (devil's advocate). Gouging on certain consumer goods like the year's hottest Christmas toys etc. is fairly shitty because you are basically fucking over kids from poorer families. Gouging on things like concert tickets and sporting events is shitty because you are preventing people from experiencing a one-of-a-kind event that they care about a lot. Gouging on luxury goods and collectibles is I think the least offensive - they're not unique, no one needs them, people will have the chance to get another one later when the hype dies down, etc.

I have a hard time believing that you really don't understand how ticket scalping makes people's lives worse. But sure. Let's go for it.

1. People who would otherwise get face value tickets had to either not go to the show, or spend more of their hard-earned money. Negative impact, either way.
2. Everyone has to deal with all kinds of anti-scalping measures when buying tickets and attending concerts, which is a hassle. In my personal experience, this has included: very long lines to get in (because everyone has to have ID checked), waiting in very long lines to buy tickets (because the artist/venue believed it was the only way to prevent scalping), having to make plans further in advance, having to do those stupid CAPTCHA things, being unable to sell some tickets when you can't make it to a show because of illness or emergency, having to be late for a show because you couldn't pass out tickets to friends ahead of time and one friend got stuck in traffic... that's just off the top of my head.
3. Buying from secondhand ticket sites or eBay hugely increases the odds of you getting scammed (this has happened to me)
4. Going to see a band you care about a lot, only to sit next to a bunch of noisy drunken assholes who didn't care about the music, but they have a buttload of money so they just bought whatever ticket was "hot" on Stubhub that weekend to impress their date. In the old days, the front rows were the biggest fans and it was really fun for the band and the fans. Now it is like half biggest fans and half richest assholes.

I guess we just have a different understanding or perception of what making an individuals life worse really is. I understand what you're saying but i just can't identify it as "making someones life worse". My rebuttal on your points:

1. I wanted to go see a Lana Del Rey concert two summers ago but couldn't because everyone was selling tickets for an absurd price. I never identified my life as being worse because of this.
2. I agree with all of these things sucking. But, if everyone knows the lengthy security measures to get into a place, they should arrive early, right? I hate airport lines but know that i have to get there early because of all the security measures. I admit TSA is a stretch for a comparison to an Adele concert but both can be handled with good planning.
3. Getting scammed definitely sucks. People get scammed on Ebay buying vehicles too though, this doesn't mean that me selling my car the right way is making someones life worse because some other jerk is ripping someone else off on the interwebs.
4. Agreed. Drunken A-holes suck.

Again, I'm not trolling or trying to piss anyone off but am liking the conversation while my 80 pound dog jumps on my lap as people explode fireworks all around my neighborhood.

Dollar Slice

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4527
  • Age: 42
  • Location: New York City
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #36 on: July 04, 2016, 08:37:25 PM »
I guess we just have a different understanding or perception of what making an individuals life worse really is. I understand what you're saying but i just can't identify it as "making someones life worse".

So I'm telling you that my life has been made worse by items A B C and D and your response is "No, your life is not worse." Don't you think I would know? You really think you know my life better than I do? You've never even met me.

I have very extensive experiences with live music and concert ticket buying and reselling. Likely more experience than anyone you know. But you're dismissing my experiences because they don't jive with what you want the answer to be. Telling me that waiting in long lines isn't a problem because I can just arrive early is just ignoring the problem. The problem is that I've wasted hours and hours of my life in lines because of scalpers and anti-scalping measures. I only get one life. One short life! How much are those hours worth to me? What right do you have to say that wasting my time is not hurting me?

Jaguar Paw

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 147
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Texas!!
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #37 on: July 04, 2016, 09:22:52 PM »
I guess we just have a different understanding or perception of what making an individuals life worse really is. I understand what you're saying but i just can't identify it as "making someones life worse".

So I'm telling you that my life has been made worse by items A B C and D and your response is "No, your life is not worse." Don't you think I would know? You really think you know my life better than I do? You've never even met me.

I have very extensive experiences with live music and concert ticket buying and reselling. Likely more experience than anyone you know. But you're dismissing my experiences because they don't jive with what you want the answer to be. Telling me that waiting in long lines isn't a problem because I can just arrive early is just ignoring the problem. The problem is that I've wasted hours and hours of my life in lines because of scalpers and anti-scalping measures. I only get one life. One short life! How much are those hours worth to me? What right do you have to say that wasting my time is not hurting me?

Are you joking? Being overly dramatic? I'm not sure how to respond to this.

JLee

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5498
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #38 on: July 04, 2016, 10:13:03 PM »
Just thought of another example that is prominent on these threads: house flipping.

Because person A buys a house for 100K because they feel that they can later sell it for 250K to person B, does that make person A immoral? I am sure that the original builder didn't build the house with the plan of person A buying it and selling it for a profit to person B.

Everyone should know that I am taking no offense to any of this and like the good talk.

It makes it pretty shitty when you're trying to buy your first house and every reasonably priced house is on the market for a matter of days before a flipper buys it with cash, thereby beating out all offers from normal people who want a place to live.  I spent nearly 30% more than I initially wanted to on my house because everything in my desired price range was getting snapped up by flippers - so I bought an owner-occupied house that had been flipped several years ago so the easy money had been made already.

Scalpers are basically injecting themselves as an unnecessary middleman to make profit without providing any service.  I find that despicable.  If ticket scalping were to disappear off the face of the earth instantly, I doubt anyone (other than scalpers) would be upset.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2016, 10:16:30 PM by JLee »

Vanguards and Lentils

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 288
  • Age: 29
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #39 on: July 05, 2016, 03:06:48 AM »
@jlee It has already been mentioned that there IS a service being provided, which is that those with no time or ability to be first in line when the ticket booth opens, get a second chance by paying a "fee" to the scalper. Even though it might not feel like a service for most people, the fact that it is a service is proved by the fact that anyone at all is buying it.

MustachianAccountant

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 433
  • Age: 41
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #40 on: July 05, 2016, 03:49:46 AM »
@jlee It has already been mentioned that there IS a service being provided, which is that those with no time or ability to be first in line when the ticket booth opens, get a second chance by paying a "fee" to the scalper. Even though it might not feel like a service for most people, the fact that it is a service is proved by the fact that anyone at all is buying it.

But would anyone need to be "first in line when the ticket booth opens" if the scalpers weren't buying up all the tickets in the first place? Or have scalpers simply created the problem they purport to solve?
I agree that tickets are probably poorly priced if someone can "flip" tickets with such ease, but I also think it's admirable for a band to not price tickets "properly" so that those with less financial ability can still see the show. Unfortunately, scalpers have decided to capitalize on that goodwill.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 13627
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #41 on: July 05, 2016, 06:02:43 AM »
The last concert that I went to sold out in about ten minutes.  I was lucky to get a ticket for me and my wife.  When we went to the concert about one in ten seats were empty.  So not only do they make the tickets more expensive, they are able to also damage the concert experience.

That's the value added by scalpers.

boarder42

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7849
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #42 on: July 05, 2016, 06:14:28 AM »
I buy and resell tickets to make money i do Royals tickets primarily right now b/c they are so hot.  i need to get into the music scene so i know who's hot in the teeny bop world b/c those parents will buy anything for their daughters at any price it seems like.  i used to do beer festival tickets but there are so many festivals now its saturated the market and people wont pay very high prices when they know there is another one next week. 

its a super profitable business and i personally dont see any issue with it i know others do.  I like to sell locally thru CL and my work, i dont like stub hub the fees are insane.  20% of that sale price is what they scrape off each ticket.  you want to talk about artificially inflating ticket prices stubhub is right up there. i can list on CL for 10% lower than stub hub then its win win. 

also with the way MLB teams price tickets now i'm often buying in april as a speculative purchase for games in mid summer.  By the time the game gets there with "dynamic pricing" i'm selling better seats cheaper than the team is so how is that not value added. yes i'm making money but i'm also taking on risk

justajane

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2147
  • Location: Midwest
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #43 on: July 05, 2016, 06:18:02 AM »
It makes it pretty shitty when you're trying to buy your first house and every reasonably priced house is on the market for a matter of days before a flipper buys it with cash, thereby beating out all offers from normal people who want a place to live.  I spent nearly 30% more than I initially wanted to on my house because everything in my desired price range was getting snapped up by flippers - so I bought an owner-occupied house that had been flipped several years ago so the easy money had been made already.

Scalpers are basically injecting themselves as an unnecessary middleman to make profit without providing any service.  I find that despicable.  If ticket scalping were to disappear off the face of the earth instantly, I doubt anyone (other than scalpers) would be upset.

Yeah, how much nicer would it be if the actual future home owners would be able to capitalize on the equity boost when they improve their home instead of the flippers who, at least in my experience, tend to do the bare minimum to improve the property? The flippers of the foreclosure next to us painted the walls without cleaning them. Sure enough, they started peeling within months. So many issues with the flippers "fixes" showed up in the ensuing years.

But at least flippers do something and provide a service, albeit usually an inferior one. Despite the dubious arguments I've seen on here, scalpers just muck up the process and don't provide a service at all.

My sense is that those who do this likely have never been affected by scalpers personally or are pure mercenaries who likely don't have a passion for live music, or at least not one that overrides their desire for a quick buck. If they did, they would understand better why it is so irksome to those of us who do.

Jaguar Paw

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 147
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Texas!!
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #44 on: July 05, 2016, 06:26:41 AM »
It makes it pretty shitty when you're trying to buy your first house and every reasonably priced house is on the market for a matter of days before a flipper buys it with cash, thereby beating out all offers from normal people who want a place to live.  I spent nearly 30% more than I initially wanted to on my house because everything in my desired price range was getting snapped up by flippers - so I bought an owner-occupied house that had been flipped several years ago so the easy money had been made already.

Scalpers are basically injecting themselves as an unnecessary middleman to make profit without providing any service.  I find that despicable.  If ticket scalping were to disappear off the face of the earth instantly, I doubt anyone (other than scalpers) would be upset.

Yeah, how much nicer would it be if the actual future home owners would be able to capitalize on the equity boost when they improve their home instead of the flippers who, at least in my experience, tend to do the bare minimum to improve the property? The flippers of the foreclosure next to us painted the walls without cleaning them. Sure enough, they started peeling within months. So many issues with the flippers "fixes" showed up in the ensuing years.

But at least flippers do something and provide a service, albeit usually an inferior one. Despite the dubious arguments I've seen on here, scalpers just muck up the process and don't provide a service at all.

My sense is that those who do this likely have never been affected by scalpers personally or are pure mercenaries who likely don't have a passion for live music, or at least not one that overrides their desire for a quick buck. If they did, they would understand better why it is so irksome to those of us who do.

I have missed out on concerts because of scalpers. I do appreciate live music. I don't have a problem selling tickets for a profit. I just can't bring myself to think that it is as heinous as some make it out to be. It's cool though, everyone has their view

boarder42

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7849
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #45 on: July 05, 2016, 06:55:41 AM »
It makes it pretty shitty when you're trying to buy your first house and every reasonably priced house is on the market for a matter of days before a flipper buys it with cash, thereby beating out all offers from normal people who want a place to live.  I spent nearly 30% more than I initially wanted to on my house because everything in my desired price range was getting snapped up by flippers - so I bought an owner-occupied house that had been flipped several years ago so the easy money had been made already.

Scalpers are basically injecting themselves as an unnecessary middleman to make profit without providing any service.  I find that despicable.  If ticket scalping were to disappear off the face of the earth instantly, I doubt anyone (other than scalpers) would be upset.

Yeah, how much nicer would it be if the actual future home owners would be able to capitalize on the equity boost when they improve their home instead of the flippers who, at least in my experience, tend to do the bare minimum to improve the property? The flippers of the foreclosure next to us painted the walls without cleaning them. Sure enough, they started peeling within months. So many issues with the flippers "fixes" showed up in the ensuing years.

But at least flippers do something and provide a service, albeit usually an inferior one. Despite the dubious arguments I've seen on here, scalpers just muck up the process and don't provide a service at all.

My sense is that those who do this likely have never been affected by scalpers personally or are pure mercenaries who likely don't have a passion for live music, or at least not one that overrides their desire for a quick buck. If they did, they would understand better why it is so irksome to those of us who do.

I have missed out on concerts because of scalpers. I do appreciate live music. I don't have a problem selling tickets for a profit. I just can't bring myself to think that it is as heinous as some make it out to be. It's cool though, everyone has their view

i've gone down this rabbit hole here and with friends before.  and you know what even some of my friends who were adamantly against it, when presented the opportunity have scalped.  one friend was completely opposed to me buying lots of tickets and reselling then when they saw how much they could get for their opening day tickets they scalped them.  all the do gooders here when presented with an option to make easy money may not find it as easy to say no to as they think.  i buy and resell anything i'm confident i can make money on ... i typically do it to off set the costs of whatever hobby it happens to be --- ie i've been want to get a paddleboard i had a slickdeal alert for paddleboards.  found some clearanced for 150 i bought 9 of them ... reselling them for 3x what i paid.  and keeping 2 for myself i do the same with tickets for events i want to attend.  buy in bulk at a discount usually then resell for profit and to cover my cost of attending.

JLee

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5498
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #46 on: July 05, 2016, 07:11:49 AM »
@jlee It has already been mentioned that there IS a service being provided, which is that those with no time or ability to be first in line when the ticket booth opens, get a second chance by paying a "fee" to the scalper. Even though it might not feel like a service for most people, the fact that it is a service is proved by the fact that anyone at all is buying it.

But would anyone need to be "first in line when the ticket booth opens" if the scalpers weren't buying up all the tickets in the first place? Or have scalpers simply created the problem they purport to solve?
I agree that tickets are probably poorly priced if someone can "flip" tickets with such ease, but I also think it's admirable for a band to not price tickets "properly" so that those with less financial ability can still see the show. Unfortunately, scalpers have decided to capitalize on that goodwill.

Bingo.  They have inserted themselves as an unwanted and unnecessary middleman serving no useful purpose.

boarder42

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7849
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #47 on: July 05, 2016, 07:31:32 AM »
@jlee It has already been mentioned that there IS a service being provided, which is that those with no time or ability to be first in line when the ticket booth opens, get a second chance by paying a "fee" to the scalper. Even though it might not feel like a service for most people, the fact that it is a service is proved by the fact that anyone at all is buying it.

But would anyone need to be "first in line when the ticket booth opens" if the scalpers weren't buying up all the tickets in the first place? Or have scalpers simply created the problem they purport to solve?
I agree that tickets are probably poorly priced if someone can "flip" tickets with such ease, but I also think it's admirable for a band to not price tickets "properly" so that those with less financial ability can still see the show. Unfortunately, scalpers have decided to capitalize on that goodwill.

Bingo.  They have inserted themselves as an unwanted and unnecessary middleman serving no useful purpose.

its not unessesary for the person who wants to buy last minute tickets to a sold out show.

and in my case i'm actually providing a cheaper ticket to an event that isnt sold out in most instances.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 13627
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #48 on: July 05, 2016, 07:40:44 AM »
its not unessesary for the person who wants to buy last minute tickets to a sold out show.

Letting the rich skip the line to buy a ticket is an unnecessary service.

boarder42

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7849
Re: Does anyone use event tickets as investments? (Or a hobby?)
« Reply #49 on: July 05, 2016, 07:51:23 AM »
its not unessesary for the person who wants to buy last minute tickets to a sold out show.

Letting the rich skip the line to buy a ticket is an unnecessary service.

i think quite the opposite is true given the market for it - stub hub was purchased for 292MM in 2007 by ebay.  you can hate it all you want but there is a market for the service which would not equate to it being unnecessary.