Doctorates vs masters degrees

[Murse]

I previously made a post exploring the Nurse practitioner route vs management. I would now like to get opinions on nurse practitioners with doctorates vs master degrees.

 Doctorate programs tend to be 3 years instead of 2 years long. The reason I am tempted to consider this route is because it would be much easier for me to get it earlier in my life. What I mean by this is that if I ever wanted to get a doctorates in the future it would be easier before have a wife, kids, and other responsibilities.

Masters tend to be 2 year programs so they have 1 year less tuition, could practice full time a year earlier, there is not a difference in pay level (they both do the same things.)

Financially the masters wins hands down, but the doctorates would give the option of teaching (if I ever desired it,) tuition is always going up so I would pay more later (again the masters still wins,) I would still be done early in life (28-29,) and it is the terminal degree. Honestly, I have no desire to teach at this moment and I would like to be done with school sooner rather then later (again, could argue both ways.) It really comes down to me being worried that I would need or want my doctorates later in life and I would be in a worse off position to persue it. Currently the extra year of tuition runs around 30k.

[Gin1984]

Have you practiced as a nurse yet?

[Murse]

No, I am simply coming up with a plan/goals. I intend to work at least 2 years prior to applying to NP school.

[Gin1984]

No, I am simply coming up with a plan/goals. I intend to work at least 2 years prior to applying to NP school.

Ok, well to start you can teach with a Master's, in some states, at community college level.  Two, where the hell are you being charged $30,000/year for school?  My institution charges about $10K/year at that level.  Three, don't assume you will get in to both, you may need to be open to not being the one who chose.  Four, um a Doctorate of nursing is three year at best.  The average is closer to 5 years in most schools.  I think you need to get out in the workforce and get some experience before you start your plans.  I had a friend who wants to be a nurse anesthesiologist but can't get critical care experience and really the programs are not interested in admitting someone without it.

[lb]

I'm pretty sure you'll need a doctor of nursing practice (DNP) to be a nurse practitioner in the next few years. Some of the Masters prepared NPs may be grandfathered in but there's never a guarantee for that. The American Association of Colleges of Nursing issued a statement that recommends all NPs have a doctorate by 2015.

http://www.aacn.nche.edu/dnp/faqs

[Murse]

First off please don't take anything I say offensively. Are you a nurse? Do you have experience with nursing schools? I have actually done extensive research on crna's (nurse anesthetists,) I was interested in pursuing that path but now I have pretty much ruled it out. Crna education is an entirely different beast then NP education. Crna schools are actually required by there accrediting agency to have all students have at least a year of experience in critical care (Most schools require it to be in an adult icu, others will accept ER experience.) In fact, all crna schools are going to be mandatory doctorates by 2025 as entry to practice, which is not true of NP's. Back to NP schools, many don't require experience as an RN at all. In fact, to your point about school being at least five years for NP's there are programs which are accelerated 3 year programs for people with previous bachelor degrees in a separate field without any previous medical experience at all. You read that right, you can go from a bachelors in business to a fully licensed NP in 3 years.

 You are right you can teach associate degree nurses with a masters degree, but in order to teach people to be an NP, you must be an NP with a doctorates. Actually the only program in my state for the NP specialty I am interested in is 50kish for a masters, 80k for the doctorates. Now, I could do it cheaper if I was able to get instate tuition in another state, but that adds a whole other level of complexity to the conversation. I could also do online programs but again it adds complexity to the conversation, so I decided I would use one scenario to make the conversation as simple as possible. By being open to both are you implying I may be admitted to a doctoral program and not a masters? If that is the case we could explore that farther. What do you mean a doctorate of nursing is 3 years at best? Are you counting the bachelor/associate degree in that calculation or just the post Bachelors? When I wrote the op I was specifically talking post Bachelors. About the experience, like I said, I intend to work at least 2 years before applying and I am open to changing them if need be during that time.

[MichaelR]

I can't comment on the issues with nursing but I wouldn't suggest undertaking a doctorate unless it is your genuine passion. I feel they are becoming more about making money for the University and less about the student. The reward for effort ratio is low.

The idea that all nurse practitioners should have a doctorate is ridiculous. But these things are often driven by financial considerations and politics.

But yes if you want to do it then when you are younger and can devote the dedicated time is best.

[Murse]

In response to lb, that is simply a recommendation. As I said in my last post CRNA's will actually be required dnp by 2025 but they are the only advanced nursing specialty who currently have a set requirement. You also bring up another point which I chose to avoid again because of the complexity of the issue. The field of nursing is in a weird time right now where some are encouraging the entry to practice bar be risen. This has actually been going on for over 30 years between associate degree nurses and bachelor prepared nurses. Anyways, it is possible that if they do change the entry to practice for np's all bachelor/masters prepared nurses would have to go back to achieve it but not very likely. This is for 2 reasons, no ones really knows if it will ever truly become a requirement to enter practice, and because even if it did they would likely grandfather in everyone who is already licensed (which is actually what crna's are doing.)

[Gin1984]

First off please don't take anything I say offensively. Are you a nurse? Do you have experience with nursing schools? I have actually done extensive research on crna's (nurse anesthetists,) I was interested in pursuing that path but now I have pretty much ruled it out. Crna education is an entirely different beast then NP education. Crna schools are actually required by there accrediting agency to have all students have at least a year of experience in critical care (Most schools require it to be in an adult icu, others will accept ER experience.) In fact, all crna schools are going to be mandatory doctorates by 2025 as entry to practice, which is not true of NP's. Back to NP schools, many don't require experience as an RN at all. In fact, to your point about school being at least five years for NP's there are programs which are accelerated 3 year programs for people with previous bachelor degrees in a separate field without any previous medical experience at all. You read that right, you can go from a bachelors in business to a fully licensed NP in 3 years.

 You are right you can teach associate degree nurses with a masters degree, but in order to teach people to be an NP, you must be an NP with a doctorates. Actually the only program in my state for the NP specialty I am interested in is 50kish for a masters, 80k for the doctorates. Now, I could do it cheaper if I was able to get instate tuition in another state, but that adds a whole other level of complexity to the conversation. I could also do online programs but again it adds complexity to the conversation, so I decided I would use one scenario to make the conversation as simple as possible. By being open to both are you implying I may be admitted to a doctoral program and not a masters? If that is the case we could explore that farther. What do you mean a doctorate of nursing is 3 years at best? Are you counting the bachelor/associate degree in that calculation or just the post Bachelors? When I wrote the op I was specifically talking post Bachelors. About the experience, like I said, I intend to work at least 2 years before applying and I am open to changing them if need be during that time.

My mom represented nurses as a union rep as I grew up and has counseled many young adults on the laws regarding them in our state.  I am a PhD student and we have a PhD program at my university.  They don't on average finish any sooner than the rest of us, by a significant margin (according to our university who publish it every year).  Since I could not be sure this was just my university, I called up my mother and asked her and according to her the average time in closer to 5 years, though if you are perfect and lucky you MIGHT get out in 3.  She has had multiple experiences with nurses going back for their Master's/PhD and seemed like the person with the most knowledge.  Granted this is Ca and NY based, given that nurses are state licensed maybe your state is different. 
Often the school have minimum requirements listed but because of the amount of students applying, those who get in have a much higher level of requirements.  Personally, instead of going by the admissions criteria, I'd contact the department and ask about the average student who is admitted.  That will give you a better idea.

[Murse]

Do you mean 3-5 years experience prior to getting admitted? Or are you speaking of the program length?

[CarDude]

Do you mean 3-5 years experience prior to getting admitted? Or are you speaking of the program length?

I'm pretty sure Gin1984 means 3 to 5 years to complete the program.

[Murse]

All I can say to that is all of the programs I have looked at are 2 years for the masters or 3 years for the doctorates for full time coursework (not including the bachelors.) I could see the average being longer if someone had to retake a couple classes but my bet would be a lot of people go part time to be able to continue working full time. But you are right, the only way to know is to talk to the people who run the program. I hope to do job shadowing and more in depth research after getting my RN and while perusing my BSN. I don't think I will be taken seriously before then.

[phred]

Are you certain they don't mean 3 years for the PhD after you have a Master's?

[Murse]

I am not talking about a PhD, I'm am talking about a clinical doctorates, I'll link the school I am talking about.
http://www.ohsu.edu/xd/education/schools/school-of-nursing/programs/upload/PMHNP-MN-DNP-POS-2014-15-FINAL-2-2.pdf

And for tuition- http://www.ohsu.edu/xd/education/schools/school-of-nursing/admissions/tuition-fees/upload/tuition-sheet-2014-Final.pdf
I am looking at psychiatric mental health in state tuition MN vs DNP, not PhD. Maybe I was not clear enough in my original post.

[Gin1984]

I am not talking about a PhD, I'm am talking about a clinical doctorates, I'll link the school I am talking about.
http://www.ohsu.edu/xd/education/schools/school-of-nursing/programs/upload/PMHNP-MN-DNP-POS-2014-15-FINAL-2-2.pdf

And for tuition- http://www.ohsu.edu/xd/education/schools/school-of-nursing/admissions/tuition-fees/upload/tuition-sheet-2014-Final.pdf
I am looking at psychiatric mental health in state tuition MN vs DNP, not PhD. Maybe I was not clear enough in my original post.

The DNP says 117 units which would be 3.8 years at 15 units a semester and depending on the program you may not be able to take over a certain amount.  Also, keep in mind prereqs for the higher level courses may slow you down. 
Also you may want to figure out why the post-master's DNP is 46 units (plus a Master's) so 126 units and a DNP directly is 114.  That was something that jumped out at me.

[Murse]

Well nursing is kind of confusing lol. A Dnp can either be a advanced practice nurse (np, crna, Cnm) with a doctorates, or it can be a RN with a doctorates. It is a doctorates of nurse practice, but does not mean you are licensed as a np. Anyways, back to the original topic, I want to know what people think about a doctorates vs a masters degree, both are paid the same but the doctorates has the added benefit of marketability and of course more education.

[bogart]

All I can say to that is all of the programs I have looked at are 2 years for the masters or 3 years for the doctorates for full time coursework

I work at a university that also has a medical education side (distinct from the university; separate administrative systems).  I don't know how the nursing doctorates, which are on the "medical" side of the institution where I work, specifically the nursing school, compare to university-side doctorates, which are awarded through the university's academic departments.  Just to make it plain I don't really know what I'm talking about in general, much less vis-a-vis the specifics of the programs you're considering ;) .

But with that warning out of the way, sure, at least on the university side, a Master's degree typically involves 2 years of coursework and includes a thesis (in those 2 years), and then you're done.  The Ph.D.s typically involve 3 years of coursework (the first 2 of which knock out the Master's; I'm assuming someone coming in without one, which is typical) and then 2 or 3 years that are devoted to proposing, writing, and defending a dissertation.  Is there no research component to the doctorate you're looking at?  Or is it folded into those 3 years of coursework?  That's certainly not what I'm used to seeing, but your field may be different.

For reference, in the fields I'm in and surrounded by, under no circumstances would it be considered good advice to tell a student to pay tuition/fees to pursue a Ph.D.  If the department weren't willing to "waive" (cover) those, and provide a stipend in exchange for a TAship or RAship, that would be a blatantly obvious signal that they didn't think the student in question was a good candidate for the course of study.  Of course, again, your field may be different.

[Primm]

First off please don't take anything I say offensively. Are you a nurse? Do you have experience with nursing schools? I have actually done extensive research on crna's (nurse anesthetists,) I was interested in pursuing that path but now I have pretty much ruled it out. Crna education is an entirely different beast then NP education. Crna schools are actually required by there accrediting agency to have all students have at least a year of experience in critical care (Most schools require it to be in an adult icu, others will accept ER experience.) In fact, all crna schools are going to be mandatory doctorates by 2025 as entry to practice, which is not true of NP's. Back to NP schools, many don't require experience as an RN at all. In fact, to your point about school being at least five years for NP's there are programs which are accelerated 3 year programs for people with previous bachelor degrees in a separate field without any previous medical experience at all. You read that right, you can go from a bachelors in business to a fully licensed NP in 3 years.

 You are right you can teach associate degree nurses with a masters degree, but in order to teach people to be an NP, you must be an NP with a doctorates. Actually the only program in my state for the NP specialty I am interested in is 50kish for a masters, 80k for the doctorates. Now, I could do it cheaper if I was able to get instate tuition in another state, but that adds a whole other level of complexity to the conversation. I could also do online programs but again it adds complexity to the conversation, so I decided I would use one scenario to make the conversation as simple as possible. By being open to both are you implying I may be admitted to a doctoral program and not a masters? If that is the case we could explore that farther. What do you mean a doctorate of nursing is 3 years at best? Are you counting the bachelor/associate degree in that calculation or just the post Bachelors? When I wrote the op I was specifically talking post Bachelors. About the experience, like I said, I intend to work at least 2 years before applying and I am open to changing them if need be during that time.

Re: the highlighted point - are you serious? NP programs here require 3 years of experience in the specialty you are studying in before you are even eligible to be admitted to the NP program.

As an RN with eleventy million years of experience, all I can say is good luck getting any respect from the nurses you work with if you have no clinical experience in the field you are working in. If I've misunderstood I'm sorry, but this just sounds all kinds of wrong to me.

[phred]

But with that warning out of the way, sure, at least on the university side, a Master's degree typically involves 2 years of coursework and includes a thesis (in those 2 years), and then you're done.  The Ph.D.s typically involve 3 years of coursework (the first 2 of which knock out the Master's; I'm assuming someone coming in without one, which is typical) and then 2 or 3 years that are devoted to proposing, writing, and defending a dissertation. 

it's not a PhD program. it's more like a super master's degree.  Probably the coming thing, same as with pharmacy.

Six states (approx) won't allow you to use the "Doctor" while working as a DNP, another six you can use it, but to have to tell all your patients that you're not a real doctor.

Supposedly, time is given in the courses schedule that you are allowed (expected?) to work as a nurse while studying

[Murse]

First off please don't take anything I say offensively. Are you a nurse? Do you have experience with nursing schools? I have actually done extensive research on crna's (nurse anesthetists,) I was interested in pursuing that path but now I have pretty much ruled it out. Crna education is an entirely different beast then NP education. Crna schools are actually required by there accrediting agency to have all students have at least a year of experience in critical care (Most schools require it to be in an adult icu, others will accept ER experience.) In fact, all crna schools are going to be mandatory doctorates by 2025 as entry to practice, which is not true of NP's. Back to NP schools, many don't require experience as an RN at all. In fact, to your point about school being at least five years for NP's there are programs which are accelerated 3 year programs for people with previous bachelor degrees in a separate field without any previous medical experience at all. You read that right, you can go from a bachelors in business to a fully licensed NP in 3 years.

 You are right you can teach associate degree nurses with a masters degree, but in order to teach people to be an NP, you must be an NP with a doctorates. Actually the only program in my state for the NP specialty I am interested in is 50kish for a masters, 80k for the doctorates. Now, I could do it cheaper if I was able to get instate tuition in another state, but that adds a whole other level of complexity to the conversation. I could also do online programs but again it adds complexity to the conversation, so I decided I would use one scenario to make the conversation as simple as possible. By being open to both are you implying I may be admitted to a doctoral program and not a masters? If that is the case we could explore that farther. What do you mean a doctorate of nursing is 3 years at best? Are you counting the bachelor/associate degree in that calculation or just the post Bachelors? When I wrote the op I was specifically talking post Bachelors. About the experience, like I said, I intend to work at least 2 years before applying and I am open to changing them if need be during that time.

Re: the highlighted point - are you serious? NP programs here require 3 years of experience in the specialty you are studying in before you are even eligible to be admitted to the NP program.

As an RN with eleventy million years of experience, all I can say is good luck getting any respect from the nurses you work with if you have no clinical experience in the field you are working in. If I've misunderstood I'm sorry, but this just sounds all kinds of wrong to me.

I am very serious, ill link OHSU's here. http://www.ohsu.edu/xd/education/schools/school-of-nursing/admissions/accbacc_masters_prereqs.cfm

I don't know if you were directing your misbelief at me or at the programs, but I stated in my post I intend to get experience myself. There are many debates about this on other forums, NP's who went the accelerated route feel they are fine without it, and NP's who did it the traditional way say they can't imagine practicing safely without experience.

[LeighinCT]

My question would be what is your end-goal? What are you trying to accomplish? Greatest amount of pay potential? Ability to teach? Are you planning on working in a hospital setting or are you looking to hang out a shingle and start your own independent practice? Bed side nursing pays better then many teaching positions but the physical demands of in-patient work are obviously higher. I'd go for the less expensive route in the shorter time frame and go for the NP. FWIW I have a Bachelors' in Business and switched careers to nursing via an Accelerated 2nd Degree Program. If you elect to go the DNP route then I'd suggest working some before committing to a DNP program so that you have some experience to draw upon.

[Murse]

My question would be what is your end-goal? What are you trying to accomplish? Greatest amount of pay potential? Ability to teach? Are you planning on working in a hospital setting or are you looking to hang out a shingle and start your own independent practice? Bed side nursing pays better then many teaching positions but the physical demands of in-patient work are obviously higher. I'd go for the less expensive route in the shorter time frame and go for the NP. FWIW I have a Bachelors' in Business and switched careers to nursing via an Accelerated 2nd Degree Program. If you elect to go the DNP route then I'd suggest working some before committing to a DNP program so that you have some experience to draw upon.

I suppose I am looking for the greatest amount of pay potential. I have been thinking about it since I posted this morning and I think it is an ego thing. I think I just want the doctorates to have it, I am not currently interested in teaching but who knows. I want to make good money, and be done with school. I would just hate to go back at 35 with 2 kids for something I could of done at 27. I actually hope to practice a few years within an established practice to get experience but I hope to be able to start my own practice after a few years of experience.

[Primm]

First off please don't take anything I say offensively. Are you a nurse? Do you have experience with nursing schools? I have actually done extensive research on crna's (nurse anesthetists,) I was interested in pursuing that path but now I have pretty much ruled it out. Crna education is an entirely different beast then NP education. Crna schools are actually required by there accrediting agency to have all students have at least a year of experience in critical care (Most schools require it to be in an adult icu, others will accept ER experience.) In fact, all crna schools are going to be mandatory doctorates by 2025 as entry to practice, which is not true of NP's. Back to NP schools, many don't require experience as an RN at all. In fact, to your point about school being at least five years for NP's there are programs which are accelerated 3 year programs for people with previous bachelor degrees in a separate field without any previous medical experience at all. You read that right, you can go from a bachelors in business to a fully licensed NP in 3 years.

 You are right you can teach associate degree nurses with a masters degree, but in order to teach people to be an NP, you must be an NP with a doctorates. Actually the only program in my state for the NP specialty I am interested in is 50kish for a masters, 80k for the doctorates. Now, I could do it cheaper if I was able to get instate tuition in another state, but that adds a whole other level of complexity to the conversation. I could also do online programs but again it adds complexity to the conversation, so I decided I would use one scenario to make the conversation as simple as possible. By being open to both are you implying I may be admitted to a doctoral program and not a masters? If that is the case we could explore that farther. What do you mean a doctorate of nursing is 3 years at best? Are you counting the bachelor/associate degree in that calculation or just the post Bachelors? When I wrote the op I was specifically talking post Bachelors. About the experience, like I said, I intend to work at least 2 years before applying and I am open to changing them if need be during that time.

Re: the highlighted point - are you serious? NP programs here require 3 years of experience in the specialty you are studying in before you are even eligible to be admitted to the NP program.

As an RN with eleventy million years of experience, all I can say is good luck getting any respect from the nurses you work with if you have no clinical experience in the field you are working in. If I've misunderstood I'm sorry, but this just sounds all kinds of wrong to me.

I am very serious, ill link OHSU's here. http://www.ohsu.edu/xd/education/schools/school-of-nursing/admissions/accbacc_masters_prereqs.cfm

I don't know if you were directing your misbelief at me or at the programs, but I stated in my post I intend to get experience myself. There are many debates about this on other forums, NP's who went the accelerated route feel they are fine without it, and NP's who did it the traditional way say they can't imagine practicing safely without experience.

Not at you personally, more at the idea that a program is ok with allowing entry to nurses who are planning to practice at an advanced level before they have any experience.

I'm gobsmacked, that's all.

[phred]

I am not currently interested in teaching but who knows.

If I recall correctly what I surfed, to do teaching you need the PhD version and not the dnp version.

[phred]

at a medical college, I meant to say.  Don't know about community college

[midwifemustache]

Hi,

I am a nurse-midwife which is an advanced practice nurse (NP) that specializes in OB. I have a Master's degree. I never worked as a nurse. I had a bachelor's in another field and did a program that you did the RN portion and then the Master's degree. There are many programs in the US that do not require nursing experience. If fact most of the top schools do not (with the exception of CRNA and neonatal NP programs). It is not crucial to have a experience before practicing, but is helpful.

There is no financial benefit at this time in getting a doctorate. Generally speaking employers are not looking for Dnp prepared employees. They do not pay more for it either. If it ever becomes a requirement for ENTRY to practice that is what it would be ENTRY, not a requirement for already practicing NPs.

NPs typically make more per hour but are almost always salaried working much more than 40 hours a week. RNs are typically paid hourly. Many of the L&D nurses I work with end up making more than I do after picking up extra shifts with overtime hours. RNs usually have pretty sweet schedules working 3 12 hour shifts.   

[Murse]

Thanks for the response midwife, I have been thinking about this a lot the last few days. I decided I want to be an NP because of the physical labor aspect of the typical RN job (most of my experience is currently in med/surg, maybe other positions are not so labor intensive.) My understanding with pay is it is very regional and I happen to live in a state with independant practice. I realize there is no pay gap between Dnp and NP, I just feel that the Dnp would be best done at an earlier age. Perhaps when I get closer I will be a bit more burnt out of school but right now I have been justifying it in my head. In all reality it is only one more year for a doctorates, after spending 2 years for my adn, 1-2years for a bsn, 2 years for msn/np, I am justifying the idea of 1 more year for a Dnp. What I think I need to ask myself is which will I regret more after it is all said and done, getting it, or not getting it. I can see myself getting it and working with an Msn np, getting paid the same, and getting frustrated. After all with that extra year I would be losing out on full time employment in my new role. I could also see myself finishing my Msn and 5 years later wondering why I didn't just do the Dnp. What is 1 year in the grand scheme of things? But again I need to consider the opportunity cost of that 1 year.