The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: CmFtns on June 06, 2016, 11:25:34 AM
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So I find myself in FY16 review season and while I BSed by way through the review process I can't help but feel that none of it matters so long as I don't get bad enough scores to get fired. I've found myself not caring if I get promoted or get a raise because I've cut down expenses so low that FIRE is not a distant goal and the difference between a 2% and 5% raise is just not going to get me there substantially faster. I would rather keep as low of responsibility as possible, work the rest of my years without any added responsibility or upward movement and then quietly disappear from the workplace after 5 or so years. So honestly mr performance review... no my 5 year plan is not at this company.
Anyone else feel this way?
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I still like to maximize my income since if I can get more for the same work in hours why not? It would mean even if the difference isn't huge that FIRE would be closer or if you plan working until the same date you have more available in FIRE and thus a bigger safety net for whatever may happen.
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I've been in a similar position. I plan to leave my current company in about a year's time. There is one more bonus review in between then, but the toughest time to keep a straight face is when the boss asks for my 5 year career plan. Hmm, I mostly just skirt the question and talk more about what I'm planning to do over the next year, that seems to give him enough material to not think about it.
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I think if that works for you and your life goals thats perfectly fine. Heck some people are not interested in working hard for an education and are happy with a lower level of earning potential as a result.. Other wants PhD's and to be CEO's of megga corps.. Each to their own.
Mustachians come in a similar wide range of shapes, although the bias seems to be on the middle income upwards socio -economic spectrum.
Certainly in retirement with my hobby job I really don't care too much about the money.. ironically this usually means you get paid more because you can afford to walk away.
For me personally with a bunch of qualifications and thousands of hours spent pouring over the books.. Well dammit I want a decent starting salary commensurate with that work.. After 25 or so years of being an over-achiever I would not have been happy to be underpaid.
But thats just me. If you are happy to work till your early 60's and you live on a fraction of what you make, your right the difference between a 2% and a 5% raise is not all that significant.
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I still like to maximize my income since if I can get more for the same work in hours why not? It would mean even if the difference isn't huge that FIRE would be closer or if you plan working until the same date you have more available in FIRE and thus a bigger safety net for whatever may happen.
+1. Gets you to the goal line faster and everything else such as raises and bonuses are based off it. So the game is worth playing IMO.
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its not a big deal once you get about halfway in years to fire you really stop caring about extra income and just kinda dont care ... at least thats how i am. do i like more money yes does it expedite FIRE not really very much any more.
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While I don't need any more pay raises, I do expect them from my company. To me it isn't about making more (although I'm never going to say no to a pay increase) it is about being compensated and recognized for the great job I am doing within the company.
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its not a big deal once you get about halfway in years to fire you really stop caring about extra income and just kinda dont care ... at least thats how i am. do i like more money yes does it expedite FIRE not really very much any more.
me too.
there's definitely a point of diminishing returns.
more money just gets stashed away and it doesn't make me feel any happier to get a 5% raise.
there's a strategic element at megacorp.
maybe you work at a place that has 5% layoffs every year.
Then go ahead and tank away if you want that severance package.
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So I find myself in FY16 review season and while I BSed by way through the review process I can't help but feel that none of it matters so long as I don't get bad enough scores to get fired. I've found myself not caring if I get promoted or get a raise because I've cut down expenses so low that FIRE is not a distant goal and the difference between a 2% and 5% raise is just not going to get me there substantially faster. I would rather keep as low of responsibility as possible, work the rest of my years without any added responsibility or upward movement and then quietly disappear from the workplace after 5 or so years. So honestly mr performance review... no my 5 year plan is not at this company.
Anyone else feel this way?
I understand what you're saying but at the same time I think you're perpetuating the stereotype of your generation. I'm not too much older than you (32) but I've busted my butt to get to where I am. When I was 25 with no responsibilities outside of work I was working overtime (50-60 hours per week) plus studying for the CPA in my very little spare time. But more than money, I earned respect. People still refer to me as a very hard worker years later and I strongly believe that I wouldn't be where I am if my pretty cushy job had I not worked my butt off for the first 7 years of my career. Just my take.
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So I find myself in FY16 review season and while I BSed by way through the review process I can't help but feel that none of it matters so long as I don't get bad enough scores to get fired. I've found myself not caring if I get promoted or get a raise because I've cut down expenses so low that FIRE is not a distant goal and the difference between a 2% and 5% raise is just not going to get me there substantially faster. I would rather keep as low of responsibility as possible, work the rest of my years without any added responsibility or upward movement and then quietly disappear from the workplace after 5 or so years. So honestly mr performance review... no my 5 year plan is not at this company.
Anyone else feel this way?
What do you do for work??
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So I find myself in FY16 review season and while I BSed by way through the review process I can't help but feel that none of it matters so long as I don't get bad enough scores to get fired. I've found myself not caring if I get promoted or get a raise because I've cut down expenses so low that FIRE is not a distant goal and the difference between a 2% and 5% raise is just not going to get me there substantially faster. I would rather keep as low of responsibility as possible, work the rest of my years without any added responsibility or upward movement and then quietly disappear from the workplace after 5 or so years. So honestly mr performance review... no my 5 year plan is not at this company.
Anyone else feel this way?
I understand what you're saying but at the same time I think you're perpetuating the stereotype of your generation. I'm not too much older than you (32) but I've busted my butt to get to where I am. When I was 25 with no responsibilities outside of work I was working overtime (50-60 hours per week) plus studying for the CPA in my very little spare time. But more than money, I earned respect. People still refer to me as a very hard worker years later and I strongly believe that I wouldn't be where I am if my pretty cushy job had I not worked my butt off for the first 7 years of my career. Just my take.
if you're 32 you're in the OPs generation. i'm 29 these sterotypes of the younger generation being lazy have persisted throughout all generations coming up. everyone has different drive and ambition and not taking on additional responsiblity works for some. it doesnt work for me. but i dont really work all that hard and still am successful in my chosen career.
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So I find myself in FY16 review season and while I BSed by way through the review process I can't help but feel that none of it matters so long as I don't get bad enough scores to get fired. I've found myself not caring if I get promoted or get a raise because I've cut down expenses so low that FIRE is not a distant goal and the difference between a 2% and 5% raise is just not going to get me there substantially faster. I would rather keep as low of responsibility as possible, work the rest of my years without any added responsibility or upward movement and then quietly disappear from the workplace after 5 or so years. So honestly mr performance review... no my 5 year plan is not at this company.
Anyone else feel this way?
I understand what you're saying but at the same time I think you're perpetuating the stereotype of your generation. I'm not too much older than you (32) but I've busted my butt to get to where I am. When I was 25 with no responsibilities outside of work I was working overtime (50-60 hours per week) plus studying for the CPA in my very little spare time. But more than money, I earned respect. People still refer to me as a very hard worker years later and I strongly believe that I wouldn't be where I am if my pretty cushy job had I not worked my butt off for the first 7 years of my career. Just my take.
I'm a CPA as well but am in the same boat as the OP. I don't derive a lot of satisfaction from corporate employment (beyond the pay) and don't particularly care how well respected am. If I'm not being randomly assaulted by strangers in the hall, that is a sufficient level of popularity. I understand that many people derive different types of satisfaction from employment besides just money though. Takes all types to make the world go round! Except for people who talk in theatres or try to initiate conversation when you're wearing headphones on a plane. Fuck them
Sounds like you and I are in the same boat OP! When you get close enough to the end, scrambling for an extra 2% for another year or two really doesn't make a difference. These feelings of indifference get stronger the closer you get. On a more positive note, my blood pressure decreases daily.
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While I don't need any more pay raises, I do expect them from my company. To me it isn't about making more (although I'm never going to say no to a pay increase) it is about being compensated and recognized for the great job I am doing within the company.
This is basically my feeling. I expect to be compensated fairly for the work I do. At the same time, I'm quite happy with my current compensation and job responsibilities, so I'm not in any major rush to increase either of those things.
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So I find myself in FY16 review season and while I BSed by way through the review process I can't help but feel that none of it matters so long as I don't get bad enough scores to get fired. I've found myself not caring if I get promoted or get a raise because I've cut down expenses so low that FIRE is not a distant goal and the difference between a 2% and 5% raise is just not going to get me there substantially faster. I would rather keep as low of responsibility as possible, work the rest of my years without any added responsibility or upward movement and then quietly disappear from the workplace after 5 or so years. So honestly mr performance review... no my 5 year plan is not at this company.
Anyone else feel this way?
What do you do for work??
Software Engineer
I'm not lazy... it's just that I don't really care about whatever microscopic contribution i make to giant mega software project. I think this might stem from starting my job and at the same time discovering MMM... So I never got a chance to work without knowing that I wasn't going to have a 30 year career to work toward.
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I tripled my income in the last three years -- I absolutely care about raises, and will for the foreseeable future. The more I earn, the faster I will be free.
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I moderately care about the raise but not at all about the review. Unless you are not doing your job, or your boss is an asshat, you should get a decent review.
But who cares? Do you want a promotion? I don't unless it comes with a really big raise (like 20+%). Otherwise I just don't want the headaches. I'm way past caring. Let me alone so I can do my job, give me the same piddly raise you are giving everyone this year, and please don't even bother with the review circus.
Unfortunately good reviews don't always come with good raises, great work doesn't always lead to a great review, and the people who do the best job and might get the best reviews are not always the highest paid. Sad, but true.
Soon I will be in "I need to be paid more or I'm gone" mode. Ironically at that point I won't need the money at all, so it will be a bit of a game. It's a few years off, but something to look forward to.
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Speaking as an employer. Someone that doesn't care and can't be motivated by money likely won't be much of a contributor and I'd be looking to replace them or stick them in a corner somewhere that they couldn't hurt the bottom line or screw up a client relationship.
You should switch jobs to something you enjoy.
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Speaking as an employer. Someone that doesn't care and can't be motivated by money likely won't be much of a contributor and I'd be looking to replace them or stick them in a corner somewhere that they couldn't hurt the bottom line or screw up a client relationship.
You should switch jobs to something you enjoy.
not caring about a raise (which monetary raises are pretty worthless to me i want more time off <- this i would care about) and showing you dont care about the raise are 2 entirely different things.
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Hell yea, every extra dollar I earn means FI that much sooner :)
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Hell yea, every extra dollar I earn means FI that much sooner :)
how far along are you? when i add an extra 5-10k to my taxable account it cuts nothing off my FIRE date as far as the year is concerned. and i guess i may be in a unique situation that i have to quit on Jan 3. b/c of how my company ESOP/bonuses are managed, so cutting a week or a month off doesnt really work for me its a full year each time i decide to work past the 3rd in my mind. and my company ESOP is the main driving force behind FIRE, i dont understand why anyone works here past 20 years. and if you save anything on your own its easy to be done in 15 or less. also i'm pretty sure i'll be OMY'ing at that point anyways b/c the ESOP will be growing at over 200k annually in today dollars based on past performance
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I don't care so much about performance reviews or raises as much as I do about doing a good job. The company hired me to do a job, and they pay me to do so. I have a responsibility to do my best in serving my clients. If I were a client and if I were paying a buttload of money for services, I would hope that the person serving me was giving their best. So for me it's more of an issue of integrity (internal motivation) rather than external review or external financial reward. Obviously, if someone is willing to pay me to work according to my values and integrity, I wouldn't say no...
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Hell yea, every extra dollar I earn means FI that much sooner :)
how far along are you? when i add an extra 5-10k to my taxable account it cuts nothing off my FIRE date as far as the year is concerned. and i guess i may be in a unique situation that i have to quit on Jan 3. b/c of how my company ESOP/bonuses are managed, so cutting a week or a month off doesnt really work for me its a full year each time i decide to work past the 3rd in my mind. and my company ESOP is the main driving force behind FIRE, i dont understand why anyone works here past 20 years. and if you save anything on your own its easy to be done in 15 or less. also i'm pretty sure i'll be OMY'ing at that point anyways b/c the ESOP will be growing at over 200k annually in today dollars based on past performance
I'm only @ ~20% to my FI $ amount. Likely another 6 years before barebone FI and 8-9 till I can completely stop working.
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I care about them. If I'm going to work for someone, I'm going to do my best. If there's a legitimate complaint about your performance, it matters. If your boss is being a dick and you're working your best, then no, I wouldn't care. And I'd find a new job too.
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Hell yea, every extra dollar I earn means FI that much sooner :)
how far along are you? when i add an extra 5-10k to my taxable account it cuts nothing off my FIRE date as far as the year is concerned. and i guess i may be in a unique situation that i have to quit on Jan 3. b/c of how my company ESOP/bonuses are managed, so cutting a week or a month off doesnt really work for me its a full year each time i decide to work past the 3rd in my mind. and my company ESOP is the main driving force behind FIRE, i dont understand why anyone works here past 20 years. and if you save anything on your own its easy to be done in 15 or less. also i'm pretty sure i'll be OMY'ing at that point anyways b/c the ESOP will be growing at over 200k annually in today dollars based on past performance
For what it's worth, I'm sure most of us here don't have a $200k/year ESOP. A $5-10k/year income differential, especially repeated over a few years, makes a huge difference.
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Being good at what I do and being pleasant to be around are things that are important to me, whether or not I'm being paid for it. And as someone else mentioned, a raise means closer to FI, so naturally, I care :)
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Hell yea, every extra dollar I earn means FI that much sooner :)
how far along are you? when i add an extra 5-10k to my taxable account it cuts nothing off my FIRE date as far as the year is concerned. and i guess i may be in a unique situation that i have to quit on Jan 3. b/c of how my company ESOP/bonuses are managed, so cutting a week or a month off doesnt really work for me its a full year each time i decide to work past the 3rd in my mind. and my company ESOP is the main driving force behind FIRE, i dont understand why anyone works here past 20 years. and if you save anything on your own its easy to be done in 15 or less. also i'm pretty sure i'll be OMY'ing at that point anyways b/c the ESOP will be growing at over 200k annually in today dollars based on past performance
For what it's worth, I'm sure most of us here don't have a $200k/year ESOP. A $5-10k/year income differential, especially repeated over a few years, makes a huge difference.
that comment was directed at my coworkers and company not these forums. haha. i understand most people dont have that at their disposal. it doesnt grow at that rate til you've been at my company about 15 years or so... and by 30 you're likely pulling in over 1MM in gains. just by my projections it could all go enron but i doubt it.
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I think we are conflating the review process and work ethic. I don't think the OP is saying he/she doesn't want to do a good job.
At the last megacorp I worked at, the yearly review process was an art in itself. If you wanted to do well you had to spend a lot of time writing up your goals and making them challenging enough to seem significant but not so challenging that you failed to meet them. You learned the buzz words you needed to add into your write up. It was a huge pain, completed inside terrible software systems. Once I got on firm financial footing - with the help of this community - one of the luxuries I allowed myself was to not care about this process anymore. I just did the minimum and focused on my actual work, which I liked. It was glorious.
What I think the OP is implying is that they do not think this game is worth the extra 1% or so raise they may get by doing all that work. I felt the exact same way.
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I think we are conflating the review process and work ethic. I don't think the OP is saying he/she doesn't want to do a good job.
At the last megacorp I worked at, the yearly review process was an art in itself. If you wanted to do well you had to spend a lot of time writing up your goals and making them challenging enough to seem significant but not so challenging that you failed to meet them. You learned the buzz words you needed to add into your write up. It was a huge pain, completed inside terrible software systems. Once I got on firm financial footing - with the help of this community - one of the luxuries I allowed myself was to not care about this process anymore. I just did the minimum and focused on my actual work, which I liked. It was glorious.
What I think the OP is implying is that they do not think this game is worth the extra 1% or so raise they may get by doing all that work. I felt the exact same way.
as with compounding your investments compounding your salary is similar. caring and getting that extra 1-3% in years 1-5 is more valuable than getting it in years 5-10.
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MMM talks about not only lowering expenses, but also maximizing income. He does say lowering expenses is more effective, but both are very helpful to build your stache
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The more money I have invested, the less I care about getting a raise or promotion.
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I tripled my income in the last three years -- I absolutely care about raises, and will for the foreseeable future. The more I earn, the faster I will be free.
This is one way to look at it, but another way - the way I took personally - is to streamline my life so my expenses are low, save as much money as possible, and not stress about work, other than always trying to do my best within my life circumstances at the time.
I have tracked my salary and net worth growth from 2002 to 2015 - my salary growth averaged 3.97% per year, while my net worth has grown an average of 16.76% per year! This spreadsheet and graph has been completely eye-opening! It's so easy to see which is the tortoise and which is the hare.
Maybe you could cut some expenses and be free now?
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The more money I have invested, the less I care about getting a raise or promotion.
correct. i think this is really the point here. i think most of us care about our jobs to some extent and want to do well but just like "senioritis" from high school or college. it reaches a point of diminishing returns and you're really just waiting for the time to come /// all that compounding just takes time. once you have made it 50% in years not dollars til FIRE there isnt alot a few extra grand will do.
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I sure do care about the raises. I would only care about the review itself if my boss had anything negative to say. He doesn't (thus far), so I nod and smile and go back to my cube to dream of FIRE.
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I work for the Government and am unionized to boot, so my performance review is just a very long, very involved creative writing exercise (unless I'm up for promotion, in which case it might make me slightly more or less likely to get promoted.) My part in this is very small, and to be honest I've always wondered what would happen if I just... didn't. Like, didn't write bullet points or a narrative and deflected all attempts to discuss the issue.
I think I'll wait until a bit closer to FIRE to find out, though... :)
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The more money I have invested, the less I care about getting a raise or promotion.
correct. i think this is really the point here. i think most of us care about our jobs to some extent and want to do well but just like "senioritis" from high school or college. it reaches a point of diminishing returns and you're really just waiting for the time to come /// all that compounding just takes time. once you have made it 50% in years not dollars til FIRE there isnt alot a few extra grand will do.
A lot of the people here seem to be in positions where they can expect significant ROI on the extra effort they put into performance reviews. That is simply not the case at most Megacorps. I would have to expend significant time and effort to eke out an extra 3%. When you only have a couple years left the compounding effect of that effort is insignificant to time left to FIRE. The marginal benefit I would receive from expending that effort on pretty much anything else is much greater.
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The more money I have invested, the less I care about getting a raise or promotion.
correct. i think this is really the point here. i think most of us care about our jobs to some extent and want to do well but just like "senioritis" from high school or college. it reaches a point of diminishing returns and you're really just waiting for the time to come /// all that compounding just takes time. once you have made it 50% in years not dollars til FIRE there isnt alot a few extra grand will do.
A lot of the people here seem to be in positions where they can expect significant ROI on the extra effort they put into performance reviews. That is simply not the case at most Megacorps. I would have to expend significant time and effort to eke out an extra 3%. When you only have a couple years left the compounding effect of that effort is insignificant to time left to FIRE. The marginal benefit I would receive from expending that effort on pretty much anything else is much greater.
yea there is no way in hell I will get a significant raise no matter what I do... There are salary ranges for the job titles here and you can not possibly move above the top end of that range. You have to get promoted to move up into the next title's salary range but that is only 10-15% higher and comes with way more expectations.
So all you people talking about doubling or tripling income... yea it's impossible unless I go off and start my own company or more to a high cost of living area but then I'm not really doubling my income...
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I tripled my income in the last three years -- I absolutely care about raises, and will for the foreseeable future. The more I earn, the faster I will be free.
This is one way to look at it, but another way - the way I took personally - is to streamline my life so my expenses are low, save as much money as possible, and not stress about work, other than always trying to do my best within my life circumstances at the time.
I have tracked my salary and net worth growth from 2002 to 2015 - my salary growth averaged 3.97% per year, while my net worth has grown an average of 16.76% per year! This spreadsheet and graph has been completely eye-opening! It's so easy to see which is the tortoise and which is the hare.
Maybe you could cut some expenses and be free now?
Nope. I am very early in my accumulation phase - roughly $157k net worth, up from about $100k 9 months ago (and about $60k of that is equity in the house that I'm currently renting out). I would have a SWR of about $250/mo. If I had ~$600k, sure -- but I can't quite cut my expenses to $250/mo.
The more money I have invested, the less I care about getting a raise or promotion.
correct. i think this is really the point here. i think most of us care about our jobs to some extent and want to do well but just like "senioritis" from high school or college. it reaches a point of diminishing returns and you're really just waiting for the time to come /// all that compounding just takes time. once you have made it 50% in years not dollars til FIRE there isnt alot a few extra grand will do.
A lot of the people here seem to be in positions where they can expect significant ROI on the extra effort they put into performance reviews. That is simply not the case at most Megacorps. I would have to expend significant time and effort to eke out an extra 3%. When you only have a couple years left the compounding effect of that effort is insignificant to time left to FIRE. The marginal benefit I would receive from expending that effort on pretty much anything else is much greater.
yea there is no way in hell I will get a significant raise no matter what I do... There are salary ranges for the job titles here and you can not possibly move above the top end of that range. You have to get promoted to move up into the next title's salary range but that is only 10-15% higher and comes with way more expectations.
So all you people talking about doubling or tripling income... yea it's impossible unless I go off and start my own company or more to a high cost of living area but then I'm not really doubling my income...
A huge factor in how I was able to triple mine was the fact that I made very little to start out. : )
I also moved to a HCOL area for my current job - it would've been fairly close to breaking even if I wanted to have my own house, but since I'm willing to drive a cheap car and rent a bedroom, it was a cost-effective decision.
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So I find myself in FY16 review season and while I BSed by way through the review process I can't help but feel that none of it matters so long as I don't get bad enough scores to get fired. I've found myself not caring if I get promoted or get a raise because I've cut down expenses so low that FIRE is not a distant goal and the difference between a 2% and 5% raise is just not going to get me there substantially faster. I would rather keep as low of responsibility as possible, work the rest of my years without any added responsibility or upward movement and then quietly disappear from the workplace after 5 or so years. So honestly mr performance review... no my 5 year plan is not at this company.
Anyone else feel this way?
And with the sound of trumpets, clarity is achieved, and I suddenly understand the attitude and work ethic of the boomers in the office...
Kidding aside, yea, as I realized how close the end was I ceased to be disappointed if there were only COLA adjustments and no raises. It's just not that big of a deal and I truly doubt I have any control over it sans a willingness to find a new job. A new job might be on the horizon, but it won't be because of compensation. It will be a "fuck it I'm going to go scoop ice scream instead of fill out that timesheet again."
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This exactly. I'm in my early 40s and a 2-3% raise isn't that impactful when I already have 500k green soldiers working for me. I really don't care if I get a raise at this point. I spend a lot of time as it is managing my finances at work, since I have no direct reports and don't have to attend more than one meeting in a typical day.
A lot of the people here seem to be in positions where they can expect significant ROI on the extra effort they put into performance reviews. That is simply not the case at most Megacorps. I would have to expend significant time and effort to eke out an extra 3%. When you only have a couple years left the compounding effect of that effort is insignificant to time left to FIRE. The marginal benefit I would receive from expending that effort on pretty much anything else is much greater.
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It sounds like short sighted thinking even if you are only 5 years our from independence. A 2% yoy raise is a 10.5% raise after 5 years. A 5% yoy raise is a 28% raise after 5 years. The funny thing about growing up is your plans will change. You may find yourself working longer than you think due to children, medical emergencies, or you may decide you want to travel in your retirement and the 1k a month you are living off now won't hack it. If you are already working hard enough to deserve the 5% raise you may as well play the corporate game for the flexibility that extra 18% in pay may give you 5 years down the road. The return on investment of kissing up is like being paid for an extra 7 hours of work a week. Don't give that up because you don't like the game.
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I feel like many people read this and think "typical... lazy millennial" but this is just not the case... I'm a very logical person and here i'm thinking about the ratio: work+stress to Dollars.
If I am "meeting expectations" in my reviews then in the eyes of megaCorp I am getting fairly paid for the amount of work that they expected me to get done. I do not feel bad or feel like i'm ripping off megaCorp because I don't exceed their expectations. If I did put in the work to exceed expectations then I would maybe get 2% more on my yearly raise and maybe get promoted to the next ranks of software engineer a year or two earlier.
Now the people I see in these higher positions end up being experts on the different systems and are the people who are "on call" and the people dealing with critical time sensitive issues and staying late and working overtime and having to deal with crunch times during installs of releases. To me they do not get paid fairly for the stress they must endure in these higher ranks so why would I work my ass off to get myself in a position and deal with lots of stress to make 10-20% more on my salary when I plan to have a 5 year career... I live on less than 20% of my income right now so FI is happening very quickly.
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If someone asked me whether I'd like 7% returns on my investment or 10%, I would do everything in my power to get the 10%, and the same goes for my time that I invest working.
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If someone asked me whether I'd like 7% returns on my investment or 10%, I would do everything in my power to get the 10%, and the same goes for my time that I invest working.
I like your signature. My friend and I were recently discussing the economics of the Bluth banana stand and concluded that it would likely do very well, though that is largely due to the fact that bananas are cheaper than they should be.
I agree with Comfyfuton's point in that there is a cost besides just the time spent on the performance review. If you set ambitious goals and hype up your achievements, there is an increased likelihood of hassle, overtime, meetings etc. If you don't mind risking those to retire a few weeks earlier, that's just dandy.
At a Megacorps though, I have a hard time seeing how it would pay off. Based in what I have observed, my $/hour would likely decrease as high performers get a 3% higher raise but work more than 3% greater hours. I suppose the type that seeks out higher performance ratings may be inclined to work more hours regardless.
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I feel like many people read this and think "typical... lazy millennial" but this is just not the case... I'm a very logical person and here i'm thinking about the ratio: work+stress to Dollars.
If I am "meeting expectations" in my reviews then in the eyes of megaCorp I am getting fairly paid for the amount of work that they expected me to get done. I do not feel bad or feel like i'm ripping off megaCorp because I don't exceed their expectations. If I did put in the work to exceed expectations then I would maybe get 2% more on my yearly raise and maybe get promoted to the next ranks of software engineer a year or two earlier.
Now the people I see in these higher positions end up being experts on the different systems and are the people who are "on call" and the people dealing with critical time sensitive issues and staying late and working overtime and having to deal with crunch times during installs of releases. To me they do not get paid fairly for the stress they must endure in these higher ranks so why would I work my ass off to get myself in a position and deal with lots of stress to make 10-20% more on my salary when I plan to have a 5 year career... I live on less than 20% of my income right now so FI is happening very quickly.
I think there is a lot to the work vs. stress ratio. I would just urge you to try and maximize your income, growing your skill set, and saving at this point in your life without forgetting to have some fun and actually spend some money along the way.
This is a long game and 25 is honestly too early to quit while you are ahead. Modeling you are 5 years from RE when you have a net worth of 40k is impossible.
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This is a long game and 25 is honestly too early to quit while you are ahead. Modeling you are 5 years from RE when you have a net worth of 40k is impossible.
Oh I'm sorry I thought this was an early retirement forum where lots of people planned for extremely short working careers based on their income and spending and savings rate... how is this a long game? I can absolutely model that I am 5 years away from retirement... Are you kidding because reaching financial independence at around 30 or early 30s is what MMM did and tons of other people who fuel this RE movement.
I really don't understand how half the people on these forums don't seemingly even want to retire.
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The performance review matters a bit to me because I want to do a good job for my coworkers and clients.
At my company there really is very little difference in pay raises whether you are a high performer or slacker. Since I have no plans on leaving this company before I FIRE in a few years, I guess that means I don't care much about pay raises. If I thought I would be in the workforce another 10 years, I would care much more.
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This is a long game and 25 is honestly too early to quit while you are ahead. Modeling you are 5 years from RE when you have a net worth of 40k is impossible.
Oh I'm sorry I thought this was an early retirement forum where lots of people planned for extremely short working careers based on their income and spending and savings rate... how is this a long game? I can absolutely model that I am 5 years away from retirement... Are you kidding because reaching financial independence at around 30 or early 30s is what MMM did and tons of other people who fuel this RE movement.
I really don't understand how half the people on these forums don't seemingly even want to retire.
I'll be 33 when I'm done, inclusive of an initial pointless bachelor's degree. Without that, it would have been 30, similar to Comfyfuton's. An 80%+ savings rate certainly approximates a 5 year span. I am slightly ahead of schedule, despite early forays into the delusion that I was smarter than the market.
I find that the crowd at ERE is a little more receptive to extremely short careers. A lot of the people here don't believe in the 4% rule. That being said, there's still a lot of great input here.
No need to be defensive. You can pick and choose which advice to take.
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This is a long game and 25 is honestly too early to quit while you are ahead. Modeling you are 5 years from RE when you have a net worth of 40k is impossible.
Oh I'm sorry I thought this was an early retirement forum where lots of people planned for extremely short working careers based on their income and spending and savings rate... how is this a long game? I can absolutely model that I am 5 years away from retirement... Are you kidding because reaching financial independence at around 30 or early 30s is what MMM did and tons of other people who fuel this RE movement.
Sure... you can model whatever you want. Doesn't mean your model is going to be right. 5 years is such a short time frame that you can't even use a certain ROI number to even somewhat accurately guess what you might have in 5 years. If you do, you got fucking lucky as shit.
Now, if you're basing your model solely on your guaranteed income minus your expenses then you could be a little more accurate. But even then... anything could happen.
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This is a long game and 25 is honestly too early to quit while you are ahead. Modeling you are 5 years from RE when you have a net worth of 40k is impossible.
Oh I'm sorry I thought this was an early retirement forum where lots of people planned for extremely short working careers based on their income and spending and savings rate... how is this a long game? I can absolutely model that I am 5 years away from retirement... Are you kidding because reaching financial independence at around 30 or early 30s is what MMM did and tons of other people who fuel this RE movement.
Sure... you can model whatever you want. Doesn't mean your model is going to be right. 5 years is such a short time frame that you can't even use a certain ROI number to even somewhat accurately guess what you might have in 5 years. If you do, you got fucking lucky as shit.
Now, if you're basing your model solely on your guaranteed income minus your expenses then you could be a little more accurate. But even then... anything could happen.
when you're saving 80% of take home pay the market returns are a really small factor in a 5 year span to FIRE.
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This is a long game and 25 is honestly too early to quit while you are ahead. Modeling you are 5 years from RE when you have a net worth of 40k is impossible.
Oh I'm sorry I thought this was an early retirement forum where lots of people planned for extremely short working careers based on their income and spending and savings rate... how is this a long game? I can absolutely model that I am 5 years away from retirement... Are you kidding because reaching financial independence at around 30 or early 30s is what MMM did and tons of other people who fuel this RE movement.
I really don't understand how half the people on these forums don't seemingly even want to retire.
I'll be 33 when I'm done, inclusive of an initial pointless bachelor's degree. Without that, it would have been 30, similar to Comfyfuton's. An 80%+ savings rate certainly approximates a 5 year span. I am slightly ahead of schedule, despite early forays into the delusion that I was smarter than the market.
I find that the crowd at ERE is a little more receptive to extremely short careers. A lot of the people here don't believe in the 4% rule. That being said, there's still a lot of great input here.
No need to be defensive. You can pick and choose which advice to take.
yea... lots of great stuff here and it's why i spend a lot of time reading here but it really irritates me when people directly oppose my plans or ideas... especially when it's because of being lumped into a younger generation.
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This is a long game and 25 is honestly too early to quit while you are ahead. Modeling you are 5 years from RE when you have a net worth of 40k is impossible.
Oh I'm sorry I thought this was an early retirement forum where lots of people planned for extremely short working careers based on their income and spending and savings rate... how is this a long game? I can absolutely model that I am 5 years away from retirement... Are you kidding because reaching financial independence at around 30 or early 30s is what MMM did and tons of other people who fuel this RE movement.
I really don't understand how half the people on these forums don't seemingly even want to retire.
I'll be 33 when I'm done, inclusive of an initial pointless bachelor's degree. Without that, it would have been 30, similar to Comfyfuton's. An 80%+ savings rate certainly approximates a 5 year span. I am slightly ahead of schedule, despite early forays into the delusion that I was smarter than the market.
I find that the crowd at ERE is a little more receptive to extremely short careers. A lot of the people here don't believe in the 4% rule. That being said, there's still a lot of great input here.
No need to be defensive. You can pick and choose which advice to take.
yea... lots of great stuff here and it's why i spend a lot of time reading here but it really irritates me when people directly oppose my plans or ideas... especially when it's because of being lumped into a younger generation.
Don't let anyone discourage you from retiring early. Once you've got enough, pull the trigger. And once you're retired, you'll probably find something do to that can make some extra money too. The main thing I would think about is not being able to access retirement accounts until you're almost 60. You probably already thought about it, but just wanted to make sure.
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Sure... you can model whatever you want. Doesn't mean your model is going to be right. 5 years is such a short time frame that you can't even use a certain ROI number to even somewhat accurately guess what you might have in 5 years. If you do, you got fucking lucky as shit.
I have to second this.
I've found that very few people are static and that the only constant is change.
You may know some older friends and family whom you trust... solicit their advice!
Ask them how accurately they projected their life's path at age 25.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-CJLTnEEjUFY/TovlwPYvNVI/AAAAAAAAACU/53T4tCSaH9Q/s1600/Success.jpg)
You may find yourself working longer than you think due to children
This was true for me. Having children fundamentally shifted my values.
comfyfutons, do you plan to not have kids or does your FIRE amount already account for it?
There's a lot of subtle details, so you should build in a lot of margin for error!
If I did put in the work to exceed expectations then I would maybe get 2% more on my yearly raise and maybe get promoted to the next ranks of software engineer a year or two earlier.
Now the people I see in these higher positions end up being experts on the different systems and are the people who are "on call" and the people dealing with critical time sensitive issues and staying late and working overtime and having to deal with crunch times during installs of releases.
You're very lucky (and perhaps talented) to be in SW engineering because its in such high demand.
It's not ununusual for a badass SW engineer to double their salary in the first 5 years out of college... perhaps your megacorp sucks?
If you're in a HCOL city, then you should be able to job hop to accelerate the promotions and raises.
That would be the mustachian way to show Megacorp who's the boss.
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This is a long game and 25 is honestly too early to quit while you are ahead. Modeling you are 5 years from RE when you have a net worth of 40k is impossible.
Oh I'm sorry I thought this was an early retirement forum where lots of people planned for extremely short working careers based on their income and spending and savings rate... how is this a long game? I can absolutely model that I am 5 years away from retirement... Are you kidding because reaching financial independence at around 30 or early 30s is what MMM did and tons of other people who fuel this RE movement.
I really don't understand how half the people on these forums don't seemingly even want to retire.
I'll be 33 when I'm done, inclusive of an initial pointless bachelor's degree. Without that, it would have been 30, similar to Comfyfuton's. An 80%+ savings rate certainly approximates a 5 year span. I am slightly ahead of schedule, despite early forays into the delusion that I was smarter than the market.
I find that the crowd at ERE is a little more receptive to extremely short careers. A lot of the people here don't believe in the 4% rule. That being said, there's still a lot of great input here.
No need to be defensive. You can pick and choose which advice to take.
yea... lots of great stuff here and it's why i spend a lot of time reading here but it really irritates me when people directly oppose my plans or ideas... especially when it's because of being lumped into a younger generation.
Don't let anyone discourage you from retiring early. Once you've got enough, pull the trigger. And once you're retired, you'll probably find something do to that can make some extra money too. The main thing I would think about is not being able to access retirement accounts until you're almost 60. You probably already thought about it, but just wanted to make sure.
thanks
All planned out through mix of roth conversion ladder and after-tax accounts
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This is a long game and 25 is honestly too early to quit while you are ahead. Modeling you are 5 years from RE when you have a net worth of 40k is impossible.
Oh I'm sorry I thought this was an early retirement forum where lots of people planned for extremely short working careers based on their income and spending and savings rate... how is this a long game? I can absolutely model that I am 5 years away from retirement... Are you kidding because reaching financial independence at around 30 or early 30s is what MMM did and tons of other people who fuel this RE movement.
I really don't understand how half the people on these forums don't seemingly even want to retire.
I'll be 33 when I'm done, inclusive of an initial pointless bachelor's degree. Without that, it would have been 30, similar to Comfyfuton's. An 80%+ savings rate certainly approximates a 5 year span. I am slightly ahead of schedule, despite early forays into the delusion that I was smarter than the market.
I find that the crowd at ERE is a little more receptive to extremely short careers. A lot of the people here don't believe in the 4% rule. That being said, there's still a lot of great input here.
No need to be defensive. You can pick and choose which advice to take.
yea... lots of great stuff here and it's why i spend a lot of time reading here but it really irritates me when people directly oppose my plans or ideas... especially when it's because of being lumped into a younger generation.
Fair enough. I think an integral component to early early workforce departure is not giving a shit what others think though. That's the same reason i wear the same pants every day.
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This is a long game and 25 is honestly too early to quit while you are ahead. Modeling you are 5 years from RE when you have a net worth of 40k is impossible.
Oh I'm sorry I thought this was an early retirement forum where lots of people planned for extremely short working careers based on their income and spending and savings rate... how is this a long game? I can absolutely model that I am 5 years away from retirement... Are you kidding because reaching financial independence at around 30 or early 30s is what MMM did and tons of other people who fuel this RE movement.
I really don't understand how half the people on these forums don't seemingly even want to retire.
I'll be 33 when I'm done, inclusive of an initial pointless bachelor's degree. Without that, it would have been 30, similar to Comfyfuton's. An 80%+ savings rate certainly approximates a 5 year span. I am slightly ahead of schedule, despite early forays into the delusion that I was smarter than the market.
I find that the crowd at ERE is a little more receptive to extremely short careers. A lot of the people here don't believe in the 4% rule. That being said, there's still a lot of great input here.
No need to be defensive. You can pick and choose which advice to take.
Woah. pay attention to the first part please:
I think there is a lot to the work vs. stress ratio. I would just urge you to try and maximize your income, growing your skill set, and saving at this point in your life without forgetting to have some fun and actually spend some money along the way.
This is a long game and 25 is honestly too early to quit while you are ahead. Modeling you are 5 years from RE when you have a net worth of 40k is impossible.
I am pointing out that you are 25 and have a net worth of 40k, not that your plan is flawed or you won't achieve your goals. I am stating you are not in the position to say: "To hell with the corporate BS. I don't care about getting raises. I have it all figured out." If you were 29 with 450k in investments and living off the same 13k a year then I would agree a raise probably doesn't mean much to you and you shouldn't kill yourself trying. As it is, you are putting the cart before the horse.
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This is a long game and 25 is honestly too early to quit while you are ahead. Modeling you are 5 years from RE when you have a net worth of 40k is impossible.
Oh I'm sorry I thought this was an early retirement forum where lots of people planned for extremely short working careers based on their income and spending and savings rate... how is this a long game? I can absolutely model that I am 5 years away from retirement... Are you kidding because reaching financial independence at around 30 or early 30s is what MMM did and tons of other people who fuel this RE movement.
I really don't understand how half the people on these forums don't seemingly even want to retire.
I'll be 33 when I'm done, inclusive of an initial pointless bachelor's degree. Without that, it would have been 30, similar to Comfyfuton's. An 80%+ savings rate certainly approximates a 5 year span. I am slightly ahead of schedule, despite early forays into the delusion that I was smarter than the market.
I find that the crowd at ERE is a little more receptive to extremely short careers. A lot of the people here don't believe in the 4% rule. That being said, there's still a lot of great input here.
No need to be defensive. You can pick and choose which advice to take.
yea... lots of great stuff here and it's why i spend a lot of time reading here but it really irritates me when people directly oppose my plans or ideas... especially when it's because of being lumped into a younger generation.
you're good projecting out 5 years at an 80% savings rate is fine. worst case you work 7 more years b/c of a couple down markets and it adds 2 years. best case you beat it but at 80% savings the markets play almost no roll. and part of me wishes i'd found this site before i graduated college(would have been impossible since it didnt exist) but i'm going to work for 12-15 years b/c i'm not willing to cut some of my life luxuries i've acquired in the 3 years prior to MMM. we still do save 65% of our income but that extra 15% would be huge!
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I am pointing out that you are 25 and have a net worth of 40k, not that your plan is flawed or you won't achieve your goals. I am stating you are not in the position to say: "To hell with the corporate BS. I don't care about getting raises. I have it all figured out." If you were 29 with 450k in investments and living off the same 13k a year then I would agree a raise probably doesn't mean much to you and you shouldn't kill yourself trying. As it is, you are putting the cart before the horse.
You are literally saying "you are too young and naive to make plans... Your plan might work in theory but you'll probably fuck it up"
I'm sorry I'm too young to know it all please let us end this conversation since it's going nowhere. I'll report back when i'm 29 and I have it all figured out.
you're good projecting out 5 years at an 80% savings rate is fine. worst case you work 7 more years b/c of a couple down markets and it adds 2 years. best case you beat it but at 80% savings the markets play almost no roll.
These are exactly my thoughts on the range of outcomes.
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Getting back on topic, I do have a hard time caring. I'm not that close, but definitely within five years to FI, though I'll likely work longer by choice. Also, nothing I do, and no review I get, will give me any raise or even a cost-of-living increase. A promotion to another admin position would probably give me a raise, but for that, I'm not looking at an annual review; I'm looking at an application and interview process done by people other than the people who write my annual reviews. And I'm not sure there's any promotion available that I would accept at this point in my career, either. I can name several that I definitely would not accept, that's for sure.
I play the annual review game, and it is a very involved process that keeps me from doing my job for a couple of weeks, largely because it would cause my department and our chair unnecessary stress if I did not.
I do have one more step of promotion I can undertake in a few years, to full professor. Unless something radical happens to change my mind, I won't be jumping through the hoops for that one. It's a lot more work than the annual review, which I'd also have to do at the same time. My students would suffer tremendously that term.
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Sure... you can model whatever you want. Doesn't mean your model is going to be right. 5 years is such a short time frame that you can't even use a certain ROI number to even somewhat accurately guess what you might have in 5 years. If you do, you got fucking lucky as shit.
I have to second this.
I've found that very few people are static and that the only constant is change.
You may know some older friends and family whom you trust... solicit their advice!
Ask them how accurately they projected their life's path at age 25.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-CJLTnEEjUFY/TovlwPYvNVI/AAAAAAAAACU/53T4tCSaH9Q/s1600/Success.jpg)
You may find yourself working longer than you think due to children
This was true for me. Having children fundamentally shifted my values.
comfyfutons, do you plan to not have kids or does your FIRE amount already account for it?
There's a lot of subtle details, so you should build in a lot of margin for error!
If I did put in the work to exceed expectations then I would maybe get 2% more on my yearly raise and maybe get promoted to the next ranks of software engineer a year or two earlier.
Now the people I see in these higher positions end up being experts on the different systems and are the people who are "on call" and the people dealing with critical time sensitive issues and staying late and working overtime and having to deal with crunch times during installs of releases.
You're very lucky (and perhaps talented) to be in SW engineering because its in such high demand.
It's not ununusual for a badass SW engineer to double their salary in the first 5 years out of college... perhaps your megacorp sucks?
If you're in a HCOL city, then you should be able to job hop to accelerate the promotions and raises.
That would be the mustachian way to show Megacorp who's the boss.
I have talked to a few people and they all say the same thing about "life happens" eluding to the same thing your squiggly line cartoon points out. But it seems like every time I get down into the details of "okay so what went so awry in your life?" it always ends up like this... "Well my car broke down right after college and we got a new car so we had those payments and student loans took us 10 years and and we bought this expensive house and mortgage rates were 15% back then and oh yea kid 1 was a surprise and then kid 2 and 3 happened and we didn't have much to save as we would have liked"
It always comes down to kids and other decisions I am positive won't affect us. I've tried to learn about common hurdles in life and worked hard to put myself in a position where I can minimize the unexpected. My GF and I are in full agreement that we are not having kids anytime soon and taking all precautionary steps necessary... We also both have reliable paid off cars which I do most maintenance on no student loans and I bought a very affordable house which I also do all maintenance on that will take us through our plans...
We live in a low cost of living area that is a hub for government contractors who are basically all megacorps that have significant software engineering positions but they all operate pretty much the same way... no one is going to double my salary for job hopping, I don't want to have a long commute, and I have zero interest in moving far away from family/friends to a HCOL sillicon valley type of place
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I don't really. I mean, I definitely like the reminder that my employer thinks I add value to the company, and thinks I do a good job. But I have no desire to advance, take on additional responsibilities, or work any harder - I've settled in for a 7/8 year haul, and don't really have any interest in anything except doing a good job of my role until pulling the plug.
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But I have no desire to advance, take on additional responsibilities, or work any harder - I've settled in for a 7/8 year haul, and don't really have any interest in anything except doing a good job of my role until pulling the plug.
I couldn't have said it any better myself, although I'm settled in for a 20 year haul so I'll accumulate enough to put my 3 month old for college. I'm a Fed who hopes his agency has a significant voluntary separation incentive program in the future that I can take part in. If I can make it to 52, that would give me 25 years of service with a nice pension and healthcare.
I found that once my non-labor income rate (dividends) started growing at 6-10% annually and became a significant source of income, I stopped caring about performance reviews and raises.
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Performance reviews are important to me only in the sense that I want to be an asset to my organization and be recognized as a team player. Beyond that, I don't care.
I have 5.5 years until my minimum retirement age.
Where I work (federal government), I have effectively topped out in that any additional salary would require moving into management. God help me, no. Many extra hours and high stress. Always being on call. It's not worth it.
We get "bonuses" but they are tiny and it's not clear what you have to do to earn one.
Our salaries are in the hands of the President and Congress, neither of whom is a friend to federal workers. In estimating my income over the next six years, I assume three years of 1% raise and three with zero. I do get two in-grade boosts, which will help.
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I am pointing out that you are 25 and have a net worth of 40k, not that your plan is flawed or you won't achieve your goals. I am stating you are not in the position to say: "To hell with the corporate BS. I don't care about getting raises. I have it all figured out." If you were 29 with 450k in investments and living off the same 13k a year then I would agree a raise probably doesn't mean much to you and you shouldn't kill yourself trying. As it is, you are putting the cart before the horse.
You are literally saying "you are too young and naive to make plans... Your plan might work in theory but you'll probably fuck it up"
I'm sorry I'm too young to know it all please let us end this conversation since it's going nowhere. I'll report back when i'm 29 and I have it all figured out.
you're good projecting out 5 years at an 80% savings rate is fine. worst case you work 7 more years b/c of a couple down markets and it adds 2 years. best case you beat it but at 80% savings the markets play almost no roll.
These are exactly my thoughts on the range of outcomes.
Chill out dude. I was giving you the advice that you are 25 and saying you don't care about raises because you already have it all figured out is premature.
The difference between 25 and 35 is similar to the gap between a 25 and 15. Your life is going to change A LOT in the next 10 years. You have all your 25 year old priorities figured out, but priorities change. There are many people who said they were never having kids that have 3 now, said they found their life partner and are now divorced and gave half their savings to their ex, or are spending 10k more per year than they had thought they would. A lot of good things can happen too - you may be making double what you do now in 5 or 6 years, you could start a blog that brings in 400k per year, or your house could appreciate 3 fold.
Have a plan and try to stick to it, but invest in yourself constantly. You are naive. Admit that to yourself! Anyone can look back at themselves 10 or 15 years ago and say "I wish I had known!" The best you can do is to keep your options open and that means caring about your career, how ever short it ends up!
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I am pointing out that you are 25 and have a net worth of 40k, not that your plan is flawed or you won't achieve your goals. I am stating you are not in the position to say: "To hell with the corporate BS. I don't care about getting raises. I have it all figured out." If you were 29 with 450k in investments and living off the same 13k a year then I would agree a raise probably doesn't mean much to you and you shouldn't kill yourself trying. As it is, you are putting the cart before the horse.
You are literally saying "you are too young and naive to make plans... Your plan might work in theory but you'll probably fuck it up"
I'm sorry I'm too young to know it all please let us end this conversation since it's going nowhere. I'll report back when i'm 29 and I have it all figured out.
you're good projecting out 5 years at an 80% savings rate is fine. worst case you work 7 more years b/c of a couple down markets and it adds 2 years. best case you beat it but at 80% savings the markets play almost no roll.
These are exactly my thoughts on the range of outcomes.
Chill out dude. I was giving you the advice that you are 25 and saying you don't care about raises because you already have it all figured out is premature.
The difference between 25 and 35 is similar to the gap between a 25 and 15. Your life is going to change A LOT in the next 10 years. You have all your 25 year old priorities figured out, but priorities change. There are many people who said they were never having kids that have 3 now, said they found their life partner and are now divorced and gave half their savings to their ex, or are spending 10k more per year than they had thought they would. A lot of good things can happen too - you may be making double what you do now in 5 or 6 years, you could start a blog that brings in 400k per year, or your house could appreciate 3 fold.
Have a plan and try to stick to it, but invest in yourself constantly. You are naive. Admit that to yourself! Anyone can look back at themselves 10 or 15 years ago and say "I wish I had known!" The best you can do is to keep your options open and that means caring about your career, how ever short it ends up!
everything you just put in that anti comment about someone's plan is a life choice. we make these cognitively they dont really just happen. having a child is a cognitive decision you dont just wake up walk outside and there's a stork dropping off a baby. getting married and divorced are both coginitive. deciding to spend 10k per year more.. again cognitive. your dooming and glooming a younger guy b/c WHY exactly b/c you are gonna have to work til you're in your 50s or what? are you trying to feel better about yourself. i dont really see the point in trying to shoot hypothetical holes in someone else's FIRE plans.
he knows how much he makes now and doesnt want to inflate his lifestyle and doesnt need more money to do it. when you get to ~5 years or less away from FIRE you start to have feelings that they dont matter he hasnt once said he was going to actively do nothing just that he doesnt really care about the reviews or the raises. which is a perfectly acceptable feeling to have, as long as it doesnt show up in his work.
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Chill out dude. I was giving you the advice that you are 25 and saying you don't care about raises because you already have it all figured out is premature.
The difference between 25 and 35 is similar to the gap between a 25 and 15. Your life is going to change A LOT in the next 10 years. You have all your 25 year old priorities figured out, but priorities change. There are many people who said they were never having kids that have 3 now, said they found their life partner and are now divorced and gave half their savings to their ex, or are spending 10k more per year than they had thought they would. A lot of good things can happen too - you may be making double what you do now in 5 or 6 years, you could start a blog that brings in 400k per year, or your house could appreciate 3 fold.
Have a plan and try to stick to it, but invest in yourself constantly. You are naive. Admit that to yourself! Anyone can look back at themselves 10 or 15 years ago and say "I wish I had known!" The best you can do is to keep your options open and that means caring about your career, how ever short it ends up!
Kind of patronizing. There are people who know what they want in life from a very early age (myself included), and I would bet it's way more common among Mustachians than the general population because of our unnaturally good ability to think ahead by more than the next five minutes, and make rational decisions.
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everything you just put in that anti comment about someone's plan is a life choice. we make these cognitively they dont really just happen. having a child is a cognitive decision you dont just wake up walk outside and there's a stork dropping off a baby. getting married and divorced are both coginitive. deciding to spend 10k per year more.. again cognitive. your dooming and glooming a younger guy b/c WHY exactly b/c you are gonna have to work til you're in your 50s or what? are you trying to feel better about yourself. i dont really see the point in trying to shoot hypothetical holes in someone else's FIRE plans.
he knows how much he makes now and doesnt want to inflate his lifestyle and doesnt need more money to do it. when you get to ~5 years or less away from FIRE you start to have feelings that they dont matter he hasnt once said he was going to actively do nothing just that he doesnt really care about the reviews or the raises. which is a perfectly acceptable feeling to have, as long as it doesnt show up in his work.
This is not an anti-comment on someones life choice. I am just advising:
Have a plan and try to stick to it, but invest in yourself constantly. You are naive. Admit that to yourself! Anyone can look back at themselves 10 or 15 years ago and say "I wish I had known!" The best you can do is to keep your options open and that means caring about your career, how ever short it ends up!
He posted in - Ask a Mustachian
Do you need advice? Do you like helping others? Post your financial or life dilemma here and see if MMM or one of the other readers can help!
I took the time and looked at his journal. He is 25 and has now held his first job for 15 months and saved 40k. He is doing great! Is he 5 years from retiring? If he stays on the same path and continues spending 13k a year then absolutely. If my friend in the same situation had said to me:
So I find myself in FY16 review season and while I BSed by way through the review process I can't help but feel that none of it matters so long as I don't get bad enough scores to get fired.
I would say - you are going to be working at least the next 5 years regardless so you may as well be a bad ass to leave yourself some options. I.e. more money, possibility to work PT after 5 years, establish yourself as an expert so you can consult later, etc.
I don't think my posts have been doom and gloom or shooting down plans. The advice has been to keep your options open and care about your career.
If the post was just to brag then maybe it should be in - Share Your Badassity
Who has something dialed down? Describe a tip, trick or technique that you have discovered, and would like to share with your friends.
If the post was here I would have said - I can totally see how you feel that way. When I sign into mint I see my retirement accounts move more in a day than I make in a month; the income from work feels kind of secondary. I have had spending and saving dialed in for 10 years to feel like that.
I would have face punched myself 10 years ago if I had said: "I have a model, I've got it all figured out!"
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Index,
I felt that ask a mustacian was the appropriate section because I was asking a question to other mustacians... the question was: Do other people feel the same way I do?
I didn't ask for advice on if or why I should care but was just wondering how other people felt about the work and Corporate game playing required for incremental raises and promotions when you plan for a short career path.
I also said in my first post that I have played the game so far... so I am already taking your advice trying to leave my options open but that doesn't change the fact that I feel that it is worthless.
therefore why I took some of your comments in a bad way.
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with your wealth of advice Index i assume you must be FIREd already and did so around 30 to be such a wealth of information on the subject.
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with your wealth of advice Index i assume you must be FIREd already and did so around 30 to be such a wealth of information on the subject.
It's not rocket science to give a damn about their career when starting their accumulation phase.
The more money I have invested, the less I care about getting a raise or promotion.
correct. i think this is really the point here. i think most of us care about our jobs to some extent and want to do well but just like "senioritis" from high school or college. it reaches a point of diminishing returns and you're really just waiting for the time to come /// all that compounding just takes time. once you have made it 50% in years not dollars til FIRE there isnt alot a few extra grand will do.
You are making the same point I am. When you are 50% of the way there then you tend to care less. Well the OP posted in the advice section and wasn't 50% of the way there; he was just starting out.
Go troll somewhere else.
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I think the standard performance review system that most companies use is broken (bell curve, everyone gets a % raise system). If it's intended as a performance incentive, I agree 2-5% isn't enough incentive for me to work extra hours, take more responsibility, etc. In many cases, a newer person starting with a low salary eventually increases their skill level to a market rate far higher than when they started, and the company eventually loses people who they were underpaying. Conversely, there can be a lot of older workers who are overpaid just because they've stayed in one place for so long, and aren't necessarily contributing significantly more than their lower-paid coworkers. I think I'd rather my salary be tied to an index based on the job I'm performing, but even that's nebulous. Not saying I know of a better solution ;)
I value my work based on learning new skills (marketability), having a positive work-life balance, and contributing value to my projects. If I increase my marketability above the value the current company places on my head, I can ask for a bigger raise or leave for a job that pays me market rate.
I also know of workplaces where there have been zero raises in the past several years, but people still stick around because they are one of few employers who still offer a pension plan.
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I could have opined...
but I just received a 1.8% raise today so I'll share my reaction. I asked my supervisor:
"Did you do this?"
him: "Yeah.. it's piddly but all I was allowed to give"
"But it's X more than before!"
"And then there's taxes..."
"Even with X% state & federal, it's still $Y more! Thanks, I appreciate."
He and I must've had a different take on this. Sure it's a small number. I might not recognize its impact on my pay advices, but..when life gives you lemons be fucking grateful that you have a lemon!
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Getting back on topic, I do have a hard time caring. I'm not that close, but definitely within five years to FI, though I'll likely work longer by choice. Also, nothing I do, and no review I get, will give me any raise or even a cost-of-living increase.
Apparently, I should make blanket statements like the bolded one above more frequently. It seems the state legislature came off of an incredibly tiny amount of merit raise money at the last minute this year, and I just found out today that I'm getting a big chunk of what came to our college. Now, that doesn't mean that my pay increase will match inflation for the year, don't give me wrong, but still…
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Speaking as an employer. Someone that doesn't care and can't be motivated by money likely won't be much of a contributor and I'd be looking to replace them or stick them in a corner somewhere that they couldn't hurt the bottom line or screw up a client relationship.
You should switch jobs to something you enjoy.
http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_pink_on_motivation?language=en
My wife likes to spend money. My wife doesn't even know how much she makes. So I guess it can go both ways.
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It's a trivial amount of effort for the overall value it adds to me financially.
So yes, I do care.
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Absolutely. Why wouldn't someone trying to stash away huge sums of money care about raises? A couple percent extra salary bump is significant when you look at how it compound s if invested.
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Extra money is always good but at what cost. I think about my current employment and I am fairly happy in my position. I would not mind being in my boss's position but I would not want to be in my boss's boss position so I am willing to only go to a certain level before I know the work/life balance takes a significant hit and the extra money is not worth it.
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Absolutely. Why wouldn't someone trying to stash away huge sums of money care about raises? A couple percent extra salary bump is significant when you look at how it compound s if invested.
a couple percent salary bump doesnt keep up with inflation on avg. its beat it the last couple years but if you avg your annual raises and they arent around 3% for your career you havent even kept up with inflation. so yippy youre getting paid less compared to the value of a dollar??? so you're technically compounding negatively in respect to your value at work. i'd be looking for a new job at that point.
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I only care about performance reviews if I learn something useful from them. The best one I ever had was a brutal 360 where I was evaluated by bosses, peers and staff. Turned out my peers hated me. I completely changed the way I worked with them and ended up making some good friends. Their honest evaluations set me up for a lot of success later.
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Absolutely. Why wouldn't someone trying to stash away huge sums of money care about raises? A couple percent extra salary bump is significant when you look at how it compound s if invested.
a couple percent salary bump doesnt keep up with inflation on avg. its beat it the last couple years but if you avg your annual raises and they arent around 3% for your career you havent even kept up with inflation. so yippy youre getting paid less compared to the value of a dollar??? so you're technically compounding negatively in respect to your value at work. i'd be looking for a new job at that point.
This argument appears to assume that you can't get raises and also look for new opportunities. If you're arguing that a 2-3% raise is effectively worth less than nothing, what's so superior about no raise at all? You might as well go buy coffee every morning -- that costs even less than a 2% raise would get me after tax, so it doesn't matter right?
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We just had our annual reviews. Raises were underwhelming this year. A top performer gets 3.5%. A below average one, 0%.
Personally, I won't put in extra time for 3.5%. Hourly, that amounts to an extra 1.33 hrs per week based on 40. (Counting inflation probably +0 hrs)
So many salaried people chase 10's of extra hours a week and get rewarded with a measly x% raise netting them a significant hourly pay drop. You truly have to desperate for the extra money and really have nothing you'd rather do in your 'free' time. In the past I've seen many salaried Engineers net lower compensation than a Maintenance Tech paid hourly with the same amount of OT.
My #1 interest is work-life balance (skewing towards 100% life!). I suspect everyone on this forum shares the same.
Any kind of raise (vs none) reduces the time to FIRE, all else equal, but if additional time is required to get that raise, no thanks!
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We just had our annual reviews. Raises were underwhelming this year. A top performer gets 3.5%. A below average one, 0%.
Personally, I won't put in extra time for 3.5%. Hourly, that amounts to an extra 1.33 hrs per week based on 40. (Counting inflation probably +0 hrs)
So many salaried people chase 10's of extra hours a week and get rewarded with a measly x% raise netting them a significant hourly pay drop. You truly have to desperate for the extra money and really have nothing you'd rather do in your 'free' time. In the past I've seen many salaried Engineers net lower compensation than a Maintenance Tech paid hourly with the same amount of OT.
My #1 interest is work-life balance (skewing towards 100% life!). I suspect everyone on this forum shares the same.
Any kind of raise (vs none) reduces the time to FIRE, all else equal, but if additional time is required to get that raise, no thanks!
I started my IT career just under four years ago and was told by a friend/coworker that 50-60hr weeks are normal, expected, and to get used to it if you want to move up. While working for the same company (where he was always busting his ass working long hours), I made sure to track and take comp time if I worked over 40. We did have different job roles at the time (we both were promoted several times as well), but I maintained my ~40hr work week. I've since moved on to another company and have surpassed my friend's income substantially, while still doing the best I can to stick around 40. Sometimes there's no choice and I have to work more (though my boss is great about giving me time off to compensate), but I absolutely agree - I'm not going to chase raises by working absurd hours. It has not been necessary, in my experience. YMMV, of course! :)
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Yup, Biggest raises come by moving companies.
Sad but true!