Author Topic: Do I have F-you money?  (Read 7510 times)

june28

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Do I have F-you money?
« on: August 23, 2017, 11:44:00 AM »
Long time lurker, but I think this is my first post.

My DH and I are both 32 and we have a 7 and 2-year-old.

I hate my job. I haven't ever left a job without another one, but I'm considering that. I'm definitely more savings focused than my husband but he's reasonable (except when it comes to cars... he's completely unreasonable about cars). Our goal has always been when my husband is eligible for retirement at 40 we would move to an area we love (likely the southwest) and figure out what we want to do and hopefully make money. So I guess more FI and less RE. DH would be willing to budge on that goal if it meant I no longer had anxiety attacks on the reg before going to work. He likes me like that.

DH makes 86k and his pension will pay out half his salary and give us access to employer rate healthcare. He should be eligible to retire at 40 or 41 (it depends on how much sick time he accumulates, he has about 6 months now). He has no upward career trajectory. He's a police chief in a specialized field. Also, there is a lot of employment risk at the top of law enforcement organizations, so me having a decent job does provide us a significant safety net. He is considering law school (which his employer would pay for), which might help with the safety net we would be giving up.

I make 70k plus a 6k (ish) bonus each year. I have been looking for about 16 months, but given that I came to this job under false pretenses... I'm really skittish about getting into another bad situation. Given DH's job, I need some flexibility to be primary parent and I also am an introvert in a field full of extroverts... so that can pose some issues. I have been offered two jobs since I started looking, but nothing that I thought was actually a good fit.

We have 22k in cash and 259k invested for retirement (not including DH's contributions to his pension, those are at around 50k, but our hope here is that he retires from the state we are in and that value is meaningless). We put 20% down on our house when we moved last year, so we've got around 45k in equity. We also have about 10k in a 529 for the kids (contributions to this are counted in spending). There are also cars...

We spent 53k last year without childcare costs (which are 14k), reimbursed grad school tuition for me (this negated itself, so it didn't seem relevant) and the three months we paid double mortgages when there was a problem with the sale of our house (that was another 3k). We traveled a lot (that's not out of the ordinary) and purchased a new house last year so there were some big expenses with that (that is out of the ordinary). I also will not tell you how much of that is car insurance/maintenance/taxes/gas/car buying, because it's embarrassing. I have cut him as far back as he is willing to go in this area, and given that he is a far better man than I deserve... I deal.

If we ratchet back DH's 457 contributions (he's maxing out), we'll be able to make this work in perpetuity without dipping into savings. I do think having two parents with intense jobs makes us spend more than we would if I were at home. There is too much take out and not enough research into why we spend where we spend. If I could get that under control, we might be able to continue to make some retirement progress. Plus, I do work in a field where it should be possible to freelance. I haven't done this, but it's something I could explore to bridge the gap until I find more permanent work.

Can I quit for now? Do I need to get some more cash savings first? I have always been in the "if we really need it, we can get it from the roth" camp. Do I need to wait to get my bonus in February and keep applying in the meantime? That's an option, and my employer puts 3k in my HSA then too... so it could be more like a 10k windfall if I stay. Do I just need to take the next job I can get? It's likely that I'm being too picky. I haven't been willing to budge on flexibility and time off. Will I be able to get a comparable job without a job? I haven't done this. And it's an unknown that makes me nervous.

I'm having a difficult time with the idea of saving so much less. We haven't been making these incomes for all that long, so to essentially go back to where we were 5 years ago in terms of income is a tough pill to swallow. Plus, I have always worked. Until recently, I've always been the primary earner. And I suppose I can suck it up. I just have never been this miserable in my life. And I'm beginning to let myself consider the idea that maybe it's not worth it.

june28

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Re: Do I have F-you money?
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2017, 12:55:16 PM »
It doesn't inherently prohibit me from doing anything. I just effed up taking this job. I was hired to do one thing and now I am doing something very different on a very toxic team where I get virtually no respect. I am nervous about putting myself in the same situation because clearly I don't have good judgment when it comes to this.

That said, I have been applying as things come up. I just haven't been offered anything worth taking. One job I was offered did not let employees take sick time to care for kids and that's kind of a non-starter for me (I have kids, they get sick). The other didn't post a salary range and I assumed with the title of the job the salary would be near where I am. With that one, I wouldn't have been making enough to justify working at all.

JoseS

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Re: Do I have F-you money?
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2017, 01:44:26 PM »
You have a nice cash reserve but no F-you money. It you were to get laid off, you have enough cash until you find you next job; but don't quit until you find another job. Is always easier to find a job when you already have a job.

If seems that you have some expectations about your job that doesn't match what the reality is. Would looking at the situation with a different perspective help? Giving up on what things "should" be is sometimes the right thing to do. Find things to be grateful in your current situation rather than dwelling on what is wrong.

june28

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Re: Do I have F-you money?
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2017, 02:36:12 PM »
That's fair Jose. My ego is probably involved here and I hadn't really considered that too much. For the past six weeks, I have been stuffing paper into envelopes and putting labels on the envelopes and answering the phone. I had one project that was still mine that I was ramping up for that they decide to reallocate to someone else. My reviews are consistently awesome and I have gotten well above the company average raise since I have been here. Plus, there is a lot of job security (even though there shouldn't be since I literally do the job of a machine as of late). I live in a pretty LCOL area, so given that my salary is honestly good. I just am used to doing big things. Managing hard projects. Solving complex problems. There might be some level of "I deserve better" at play that I hadn't thought about. I'll noodle on that. I didn't even think I had an ego until I started here. I WAS WRONG.

Thanks Bender. I think you're right in that I should focus on me as much as possible. I have been working the changing my situation angle as much as I can, but it hasn't proven fruitful yet (except I may be getting more money to shut me up. Yay??). I used to be a ray of freaking sunshine before this place beat me down, so I know it's in there somewhere. And ultimately, I think it's time for me to mentally disengage somewhat from here, but that's sort of against my nature. I have never had a job that I thought about as just a paycheck, so maybe I will actually acquire a new skill here! It'll be a first!

june28

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Re: Do I have F-you money?
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2017, 02:42:18 PM »
So what if I got my cash savings to 50k, my expenses to match, my investments to 300k (no pension) and one steady freelance client? Would I be mustachian approved then? 

Number goals are my friends.

yourusernamehere

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Re: Do I have F-you money?
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2017, 04:35:04 PM »
The book "The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F%*^" really helped me deal with a tough work situation where I felt anxious, frustrated, and at the end of my rope by the end of each day. If you haven't read it yet, I definitely recommend it. Kudos on your immediate self-reflection after just a few comments here. That shows real strength of character, and I think you'll be just fine

june28

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Re: Do I have F-you money?
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2017, 09:17:42 AM »
Thanks for the book recommendation. It sounds like I am in a similar boat to where you were. I downloaded the audio version from the library and I shouldn't have a problem listening to it at work, so that's a positive too I guess.

tyd450

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Re: Do I have F-you money?
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2017, 09:22:40 AM »
Just because your current job stinks doesn't necessarily mean the next one will.  It definitely could, but you shouldn't assume that all jobs stink because you are currently in a bad situation.  You made a mistake this time, but that doesn't mean you will next time!

So the good thing is that you have realized that your job sucks.  And you are willing to quit it all together.  So you literally have nothing to lose.  Find a new job.  If that one stinks too then you can quit that one!

Playing with Fire UK

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Re: Do I have F-you money?
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2017, 09:55:22 AM »
Can you look again at the spending over the past year and have a real honest think about which costs would reduce if you weren't working? This might inform your decision.

I'm not trying to undermine your work issues: but if I could calm my desire for progression and ego, a job paying $70k in a LCOL area mindlessly stuffing envelopes while listening to podcasts sounds pretty sweet to me. Would reframing help, or are there other issues that are insurmountable?

Kapiira

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Re: Do I have F-you money?
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2017, 11:52:30 AM »
Is it possible to reduce your hours?  Spending 30 hours at a terrible job is easier than spending 40 hours at a terrible job.

ooeei

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Re: Do I have F-you money?
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2017, 12:24:39 PM »
So what if I got my cash savings to 50k, my expenses to match, my investments to 300k (no pension) and one steady freelance client? Would I be mustachian approved then? 

Number goals are my friends.

There's never gonna be a time before you're FI where people advise quitting before finding another job.  Really if you think about it, they're right.  If you still need money, why would you quit making money on purpose?  If you want a new job, you can find it while working. If you want to freelance, take a few clients on the side and work on them after work. If they go well, consider whether it's worth trying full time.

Would you survive if you quit without having something else lined up? Sure, but you're burning up your savings for no reason. You also risk getting to where your savings is running low before you find something new (16 months is what you've waited so far with no luck) and then being forced into something worse than your current position to make ends meet.

Additionally, how have you been looking for 16 months and only had 2 offers? That tells me you need to either work harder, lower your expectations, work on your interview skills, or broaden your search criteria. How many jobs have you applied to today? If the answer is less than 5, you need to be working harder. What about yesterday? Should be at least 5 again. How many people with the job you want who you have some sort of connection to have you reached out to? Just ask if you can chat for a bit and try and get their advice on what skills you should be working on and what you may need to talk up.

caracarn

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Re: Do I have F-you money?
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2017, 01:06:24 PM »
That's fair Jose. My ego is probably involved here and I hadn't really considered that too much. For the past six weeks, I have been stuffing paper into envelopes and putting labels on the envelopes and answering the phone. I had one project that was still mine that I was ramping up for that they decide to reallocate to someone else. My reviews are consistently awesome and I have gotten well above the company average raise since I have been here. Plus, there is a lot of job security (even though there shouldn't be since I literally do the job of a machine as of late). I live in a pretty LCOL area, so given that my salary is honestly good. I just am used to doing big things. Managing hard projects. Solving complex problems. There might be some level of "I deserve better" at play that I hadn't thought about. I'll noodle on that. I didn't even think I had an ego until I started here. I WAS WRONG.
My attitude with jobs has always been, "I can be the janitor, as long as they pay me", meaning I was less focused on the menial task at hand as any indicator of anything.  If they wanted to pay me $70K to stuff envelopes, as long as they paid be the $70K we agreed to, I'd stuff away.   There is danger in taking the attitude of "this is beneath me" which is really what most people say when they try to lipstick the pig with "I deserve better".  Certainly there is something to be said for enjoying what you do but every job has a lot of monotonous, mudane, boring as F work in it and getting comfortable with that is crucial to happiness. 

june28

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Re: Do I have F-you money?
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2017, 01:27:43 PM »
PlayingwithFire, that's got to be my next move. I want to look at actual transactions by month, so I am really certain about numbers in specific categories. There is really no reason why we shouldn't be able to live off of just DH's income and still save. People here do it all the time with much more working against them. We were saving pretty well 5 years ago when our combined income was about what just his is, our mortgage was more, and we had one kid in daycare. As our incomes went up and the second kid made everything WAY harder, we just let loose on the spending.

And as far as the work issues go - I get it. On paper, it doesn't really sound that bad to me either. And to be honest, for the first six months - I was pretty okay with it. I had just come out of a big job where a lot was expected of me and having the expectations be so small was refreshing. Then I got bored. I tried to placate myself by going to grad school and just figured I could stretch my brain after work. That actually worked for the most part until I finished in May. Things have just sort of fallen off a cliff since then.

That's a good thought Kapiira. This place is pretty inflexible, but they have shown interest in keeping me so there maybe a chance at that. Plus if I did 32 hours, I could keep my full-time benefits -- this place does have fantastic benefits. I am currently on our corporate succession plan (there is no VP of stuffing envelopes though, so I don't see how they think I will be qualified) and I would probably have to give that up. That's not a deal breaker, but it would definitely mean I'm putting myself on the "downshift or leave" track here permanently. And there is the risk that it will take me longer than I expect to find something else. I'll have to really consider this though. Thanks!

ooeei, I get what you're saying, but we wouldn't be burning through savings. We would be able to make it on DH's income without daycare costs.  We just wouldn't be saving much. And there is a difference to me, but maybe there shouldn't be until we are truly FIRE. I just feel like with the $259k in our stash... if that doubled in 11 years and DH retired simultaneously we have $518k and roughly a 52k pension (assuming no raises, which there will be COLA still). That gets us to 72k/year without saving anything else--which gets us over our current spend.

Now all the criticisms on my job search are one billion percent valid. You've probably gotten at the crux of the problem. I have sucked at this. I have applied for 8 jobs. Period. Maybe that's not even considered a job search. I have been very picky because of knowing I need some flexibility and not wanting to ultimately take a step back career-wise just because I screwed up this time. This is definitely a mistake. If I'm as miserable as I feel (which I am), why am I not doing everything in my power to get out of here no matter the situation? I don't know. I've got to think about that.

And to be honest, I just don't have a lot of self-esteem at the moment and I think I lack a confidence that I used to really show in interviews. I'm having trouble talking through my current position and what I contribute when asked in an interview. I do have a pretty okay network and I have reached out to people I trust. I got some feedback on my resume. The answer here is definitely a face punch. I just need to put on my big girl pants and figure out a way to be me again. I just feel so freakin beaten down and I'm sure it shows.

Dicey

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Re: Do I have F-you money?
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2017, 01:45:42 PM »
For the past six weeks, I have been stuffing paper into envelopes and putting labels on the envelopes and answering the phone... My reviews are consistently awesome and I have gotten well above the company average raise since I have been here. Plus, there is a lot of job security (even though there shouldn't be since I literally do the job of a machine as of late).   
Wait! You're getting paid well to do a completely easy-peasy job and it's stressing you out? WTH? You can't relax and roll with it until the next big thing comes your way?

I'm confused as hell. Maybe the real issue is that you're worried about what it means that you're not getting the plum (in your mind) assignments. Is there someone in management who is trying to marginalize you?

On another thread, they're complaining about the dearth of Facepunches. You're seriously close to one, IMO.

caracarn

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Re: Do I have F-you money?
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2017, 01:59:02 PM »
PlayingwithFire, that's got to be my next move. I want to look at actual transactions by month, so I am really certain about numbers in specific categories. There is really no reason why we shouldn't be able to live off of just DH's income and still save. People here do it all the time with much more working against them. We were saving pretty well 5 years ago when our combined income was about what just his is, our mortgage was more, and we had one kid in daycare. As our incomes went up and the second kid made everything WAY harder, we just let loose on the spending.

And as far as the work issues go - I get it. On paper, it doesn't really sound that bad to me either. And to be honest, for the first six months - I was pretty okay with it. I had just come out of a big job where a lot was expected of me and having the expectations be so small was refreshing. Then I got bored. I tried to placate myself by going to grad school and just figured I could stretch my brain after work. That actually worked for the most part until I finished in May. Things have just sort of fallen off a cliff since then.

That's a good thought Kapiira. This place is pretty inflexible, but they have shown interest in keeping me so there maybe a chance at that. Plus if I did 32 hours, I could keep my full-time benefits -- this place does have fantastic benefits. I am currently on our corporate succession plan (there is no VP of stuffing envelopes though, so I don't see how they think I will be qualified) and I would probably have to give that up. That's not a deal breaker, but it would definitely mean I'm putting myself on the "downshift or leave" track here permanently. And there is the risk that it will take me longer than I expect to find something else. I'll have to really consider this though. Thanks!

ooeei, I get what you're saying, but we wouldn't be burning through savings. We would be able to make it on DH's income without daycare costs.  We just wouldn't be saving much. And there is a difference to me, but maybe there shouldn't be until we are truly FIRE. I just feel like with the $259k in our stash... if that doubled in 11 years and DH retired simultaneously we have $518k and roughly a 52k pension (assuming no raises, which there will be COLA still). That gets us to 72k/year without saving anything else--which gets us over our current spend.

Now all the criticisms on my job search are one billion percent valid. You've probably gotten at the crux of the problem. I have sucked at this. I have applied for 8 jobs. Period. Maybe that's not even considered a job search. I have been very picky because of knowing I need some flexibility and not wanting to ultimately take a step back career-wise just because I screwed up this time. This is definitely a mistake. If I'm as miserable as I feel (which I am), why am I not doing everything in my power to get out of here no matter the situation? I don't know. I've got to think about that.

And to be honest, I just don't have a lot of self-esteem at the moment and I think I lack a confidence that I used to really show in interviews. I'm having trouble talking through my current position and what I contribute when asked in an interview. I do have a pretty okay network and I have reached out to people I trust. I got some feedback on my resume. The answer here is definitely a face punch. I just need to put on my big girl pants and figure out a way to be me again. I just feel so freakin beaten down and I'm sure it shows.
So these were the two most important things I saw in your replies.

We've got six kids.  There is no reason having more kids has to turn into a huge increase in spending.  You've identified it as an excuse.  Up thread though you also mentioned that your spouse has gone as far as he's willing to with the cutting back if I recall, so you are swimming upstream.  You've created a false need for you to work to make ends meet by upsizing your  expenses to the point that you cannot do without.  I'd attack this more than I'd attack the job.  The job is not your #1 problem in my view, this is.  The job is providing your family with extra money while you do something that you've said is super easy, secure and as noted has great benefits.  Grass is always greener syndrome has messed up more people than it helps.  Almost as bad as the consumer sucka lies out there in the world are the "just find a better job it's out there".  You are in a great space.  They love you, they want to keep you, they pay you well and they give you great benefits.  Yeah, sounds like a shitty place to be.  My advice is to not let that go at this time.  When you deal with the real problem (your families expanded spending and the stress that is placing you under) then reassess, but right now it seems you are being delusional.  People would kill to have the job situation I mentioned you have and you're just willing to toss it away.  Please think before you act.

Acastus

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Re: Do I have F-you money?
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2017, 02:21:08 PM »
Everyone says you are more attractive as a potential employee if you are currently employed. Someone hired you, so you must be worth employing. If you can do it all, you will be better off.

I have never succeeded in doing job search while working, though I did some interviewing early in my career. I could use advice on how to juggle all the work, life, and job hunting balls and keep them all in the air, too.

caracarn

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Re: Do I have F-you money?
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2017, 02:39:32 PM »
Everyone says you are more attractive as a potential employee if you are currently employed. Someone hired you, so you must be worth employing. If you can do it all, you will be better off.

I have never succeeded in doing job search while working, though I did some interviewing early in my career. I could use advice on how to juggle all the work, life, and job hunting balls and keep them all in the air, too.
The biggest challenge of job searching while working is getting time off to interview.  The difficulty is you do not get a lot of notice for interviews and a savvy manager/HR department takes notice pretty quickly with a lot of two day notice days or half days off.  Calling in sick only works once or twice, so then you are limiting yourselves to being picky about what interviews you take. 

As far as the rest of it, I have a spreadsheet that lists employer, what job is was, when I applied and then I keep actions in another column.  Did I contact them?  As I move through the cycle, when I had which interview with them, who I spoke with, interesting notes, things that might help.  It also helps when recruiters call to submit you to a job that you can quickly tell them if you already applied.  For this job, took a year of looking while I worked, applying to 15-20 jobs per week (I tried to do 3-4 per day).  I interviewed at perhaps 10 companies over that time and had offers from two at the end.  Without the spreadsheet it would have been a bear, and it also was helpful to look back when I was down (which happens a LOT in a job search) to actually see that good things did happen regualrly, I just needed to keep trying until I got the yes.

june28

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Re: Do I have F-you money?
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2017, 02:46:43 PM »
Okay, hold the phone everyone. This goes well beyond the fact that I am just stuffing envelopes (today I got moved up to labeling file folders, no more paper cuts thankyouverymuch). I do not want to get too far into specifics because some of it is sensitive and if I explained all that has happened in the last 12 months... I would be instantly identifiable to anyone who knew me.  This job SUCKS. I'm having health issues. My hair is falling out. I am having regular panic attacks. This isn't some bullshit "the fairy princess can't stuff envelopes" situation. Give me some credit here. I have been working for 20 years now and I have never quit a job without another one. I am miserable and I deserve to be less so. EVERYONE ON THE PLANET deserves to be less miserable. The company as a whole has turned over 28 percent in the last year (typically their turnover is around 6 percent). It's NOT just me. I truly am predisposed to contentment.

Thanks to everyone who gave me some strategies to think about that would make my job a little more manageable until I can move on. I will keep my ego in check (and consider its existence more often!) and try to look at this as just a job. And ask about fewer hours. Ultimately, I need to kick up my job search. That's clearly the answer and the missing link in this whole situation. And it's very clearly something I have control over and will change. And this is probably the general kick in the ass I needed to stop being so mopey about it.

I just thought that given our stash situation, I might have been able to buy some months home with my kids while I looked, given that DH's income would cover our expenses. My family would definitely benefit from a couple months (or longer) of me focusing on just them. That's clearly not recommended by the forum. And I appreciate the honesty. We'll keep chugging away on the FI dream.

I am going to look for a job HARD for the next six months,  cut expenses, save as much as I can and if things don't change, I am going to circle back on the idea of quitting. I have promised my family that if my health issues worsen, I'll quit regardless.

Thanks again everyone!

caracarn

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Re: Do I have F-you money?
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2017, 02:52:48 PM »
Okay, hold the phone everyone. This goes well beyond the fact that I am just stuffing envelopes (today I got moved up to labeling file folders, no more paper cuts thankyouverymuch). I do not want to get too far into specifics because some of it is sensitive and if I explained all that has happened in the last 12 months... I would be instantly identifiable to anyone who knew me.  This job SUCKS. I'm having health issues. My hair is falling out. I am having regular panic attacks. This isn't some bullshit "the fairy princess can't stuff envelopes" situation. Give me some credit here. I have been working for 20 years now and I have never quit a job without another one. I am miserable and I deserve to be less so. EVERYONE ON THE PLANET deserves to be less miserable. The company as a whole has turned over 28 percent in the last year (typically their turnover is around 6 percent). It's NOT just me. I truly am predisposed to contentment.

Thanks to everyone who gave me some strategies to think about that would make my job a little more manageable until I can move on. I will keep my ego in check (and consider its existence more often!) and try to look at this as just a job. And ask about fewer hours. Ultimately, I need to kick up my job search. That's clearly the answer and the missing link in this whole situation. And it's very clearly something I have control over and will change. And this is probably the general kick in the ass I needed to stop being so mopey about it.

I just thought that given our stash situation, I might have been able to buy some months home with my kids while I looked, given that DH's income would cover our expenses. My family would definitely benefit from a couple months (or longer) of me focusing on just them. That's clearly not recommended by the forum. And I appreciate the honesty. We'll keep chugging away on the FI dream.

I am going to look for a job HARD for the next six months,  cut expenses, save as much as I can and if things don't change, I am going to circle back on the idea of quitting. I have promised my family that if my health issues worsen, I'll quit regardless.

Thanks again everyone!
Certainly we're responding to what you shared.  This does sound worse (and you did mention a toxic environment but left it at that).  Without more details it does seem all the advice we can give is if it is that bad, get out, but if you can stick it out while you search.  It seems like you will be doing that.  Only comment on what you just posted is you are entering the time of year when it gets harder to find a job with the holidays coming up and a lot of companies waiting until next year to hire or until they have time to interview because people are not off for Thanksgiving or Christmas.  Keep that in mind so you do not get too down if the search takes longer. 

The_Pretender

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Re: Do I have F-you money?
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2017, 03:03:36 PM »
You mentioned anxiety and stress and things which tend to lead to mental health.  Have you taken the time to go to therapy?  sometimes going to talk therapy may help you out of a funk and give you some strength.  It may help you identify what took the wind out of your sails.  Check your employer benefits and see if they offer assistance in paying for the first few sessions of therapy.  I know this topic is tough in our society, but really it does help just to get an unbiased opinion or to have someone guide you with questions.  You seem to do a good job self reflecting, maybe this will also help you.

You seem like an individual who would do great in any job and a company is lucky to have you... unfortunately this company can not find anything for you to sink your teeth into.  Something in the past year or two seems to have beaten you down to the ground and is keeping you there.  Finding what is keeping you down will help...

I think, based on your comments/self reflection, you could develop personal goals to establish YTD spend in 17 and track the next 5 months.  You can analyze then your 2017 spend, get your Feb bonus and HSA deposit.  Then you could quit to spend time with your kids and managing your household.  Stream-lining expenses, caring for your kids, and exploring freelance opportunities.  But it would help to understand what makes you feel accomplished?  Joining groups to get out of the house to talk to adults, challenge your mind, etc...

june28

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Re: Do I have F-you money?
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2017, 03:07:11 PM »
You've created a false need for you to work to make ends meet by upsizing your  expenses to the point that you cannot do without.  I'd attack this more than I'd attack the job. 

Thanks caracarn. I really do need to consider this. We had a much simpler life at some point, but we had kids and started to climb work ladders and suddenly our life has spiraled out of control in a lot of ways. I also have let the kid expenses (in addition to daycare) get out of control. You're right. I have no excuse there. I'm going to take a hard look at the actual numbers and see where we are. My husband is really flexible in terms of cutting back, except with cars. But he did say last night that he would sell the expensive monstrosity if I could stay home more permanently. I'll have to figure out if he means it somehow. :)

june28

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Re: Do I have F-you money?
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2017, 03:14:16 PM »
The_Pretender, thanks for responding.

I was replying to someone earlier in the thread and typed "Maybe, I'm depressed? I don't know" but I deleted it before posting because it seemed dramatic and disingenuous. But really--maybe I am depressed. Being willing to talk to someone and finding the time to talk to someone seem to be different for me. I looked it up at one point and we have six visits per "incident," and I easily have a ton of those to bring up.

Thanks again for this, I will consider it seriously.

Playing with Fire UK

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Re: Do I have F-you money?
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2017, 01:41:19 AM »
PlayingwithFire, that's got to be my next move. I want to look at actual transactions by month, so I am really certain about numbers in specific categories. There is really no reason why we shouldn't be able to live off of just DH's income and still save. People here do it all the time with much more working against them. We were saving pretty well 5 years ago when our combined income was about what just his is, our mortgage was more, and we had one kid in daycare. As our incomes went up and the second kid made everything WAY harder, we just let loose on the spending.

Cool, do this. It sounds like there may well be some serious savings to be made. And let's be honest, it can be expensive to be miserable, the treats, the pick-me-ups, the I-don't-have-the-energy-after-my-shit-day decisions. This is a very real thing. Not only do you deserve to be not-miserable, your family will benefit from it more than the money.

I believe and support your evaluation of your workplace, you have more information than us and are the person best placed to make the assessment. Apologies if that didn't come through.

How secure is your partner's work? And how old are your children? Is it common to go freelance or take a career break in your industry?
 If the remaining income is stable, and taking time off wouldn't stop you going back later and you can make the money work I'd be leaning towards quitting sooner rather than later.

caracarn

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Re: Do I have F-you money?
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2017, 07:07:55 AM »
You've created a false need for you to work to make ends meet by upsizing your  expenses to the point that you cannot do without.  I'd attack this more than I'd attack the job. 

Thanks caracarn. I really do need to consider this. We had a much simpler life at some point, but we had kids and started to climb work ladders and suddenly our life has spiraled out of control in a lot of ways. I also have let the kid expenses (in addition to daycare) get out of control. You're right. I have no excuse there. I'm going to take a hard look at the actual numbers and see where we are. My husband is really flexible in terms of cutting back, except with cars. But he did say last night that he would sell the expensive monstrosity if I could stay home more permanently. I'll have to figure out if he means it somehow. :)
You've simply succumbed to the typical consumer mentality.  As incomes goes up so does our spending, because "hey, we deserve it".  MMM community pushes against that heavily and ask you to reframe the conversation to "do I need it." 

I'll share my stance and you can decide if you want to share with your husband.  I LOVE cars.  I'd be the first one to tell you that every once in a while I get hit by the "I make a really good salary, why does my car not reflect that" or "I'd love a fun, cool car".  However, the "need" of a car is transportation.  It's not flashiness, 0-60 time, towing capacity (unless that is utility I need for some other valid need, not want) or other marketing joys.  So I have always simply looked at the need of a car as getting me from point A to B and therefore I clearly get while I may want a sports car, luxury car with butler in the trunk or massive SUV/truck to own the road, that's not why I need a vehicle.  I need it to get to an from a job that supplies our funds to live and save.  If I spend too much on my car I impact both my ability to live and to save, and that makes me more sad than the fleeting excitement of the over the top car makes me happy.  I think if your husband is being honest with himself, the desire for cars is just a hugely expensive purchasing rat race like anything else where someone had to have the latest cell phone or the latest purse or the latest shoes, because the positive feelings from those things last only a very short time and we need that next fix to keep ourselves happy.  It's totally anti-MMM, and your husband might not be there, but hopeful that he may be open to understanding that the car is a means to and end and most importantly should be viewed as a tool, no more exciting to own than a hammer or a toilet seat.  Figure out it's purpose in your life and buy for that reason alone.

Mariposa

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Re: Do I have F-you money?
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2017, 07:40:31 AM »
I will be the dissenting voice here and say that if you're miserable at your current job and can comfortably live off your husband's salary by cutting back on 457 contributions, you should go ahead and quit. Yes, it may be more difficult for you to get another job in the future. Or not, depending on your field. Or you may decide to re-train and do something completely different.

Your children are 7 and 2: you will never get back this time with them. It's a choice similar to what those of us who are taking the glide path towards FI by gradually cutting back our hours are doing. That said, depending on what your kids are like, being a SAHM can also be very stressful. I personally would not enjoy providing full-time care for my 2-year-old. So I'm grateful for daycare and my part-time job.

ooeei

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Re: Do I have F-you money?
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2017, 07:51:34 AM »
For the past six weeks, I have been stuffing paper into envelopes and putting labels on the envelopes and answering the phone... My reviews are consistently awesome and I have gotten well above the company average raise since I have been here. Plus, there is a lot of job security (even though there shouldn't be since I literally do the job of a machine as of late).   
Wait! You're getting paid well to do a completely easy-peasy job and it's stressing you out? WTH? You can't relax and roll with it until the next big thing comes your way?

I'm confused as hell. Maybe the real issue is that you're worried about what it means that you're not getting the plum (in your mind) assignments. Is there someone in management who is trying to marginalize you?

On another thread, they're complaining about the dearth of Facepunches. You're seriously close to one, IMO.

I can vouch for an "easy peasy job" turning into torture after a few months. Sitting around doing nothing is great for a little while, but after 6 months to a year of it it's so boring you can't stand it. It's like watching TV all day every day. I like watching TV a few hours here and there, but if I had to do it 8 hours a day every day it would be torture, especially if it was the same shows over and over.

I recently left a super easy job for something more challenging, and would never go back. I remember the time when I decided I needed to leave was when I finished reading about an 8 page article on apples, because that's how far into the internet I was.


OP good luck with the job search. Set aside 1-2+ hours per day and completely dedicate it to the job search. You'll be surprised how quickly it goes when you actually focus on it. There's no reason you can't have 5-10 applications out with customized resumes every day, along with the occasional "informational interview" with someone in the industry whose advice you'd like to have. If you do 5 applications per day, after a month you've applied to 150 jobs. 10 applications and it's 300. Both are very doable.

june28

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Re: Do I have F-you money?
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2017, 11:46:06 AM »
Sorry if I was a little forceful on defending how much my job sucks. I didn't paint the full picture in the beginning. Plus, I get the idea that if I could just deal with this job for eight more years, we would essentially be golden. Dealing is the prudent solution, so I get why I would be encouraged to do that. I just don't have the mental wherewithal. Right now, I'm taking it paycheck by paycheck (being pretty numbers driven, that's the most effective way for me to think about it).

PlayingwithFire I went over things last night and I can see where we can cut pretty significantly.. now I just need to piece together a couple months where we actually make those cuts. I think that would give me peace of mind. Those are all good questions. My partner's work is really secure until it isn't. Being at the top of a policing organization leaves you vulnerable to taking the fall for a lot of other people's dumb decisions. The positive side is even if he were to lose his job, he knows enough people that somebody would hire him to do something to finish out his service years to draw his retirement. This has been something I've been struggling with though because I do provide a big safety net in that regard. The kids are 7 and 2 and they are well adjusted to our situation. I do think I do the best I can to be a good mom, but if I had more time I could certainly be there in a bigger way. I think it is pretty common to freelance in my field. I just haven't done much of it. I have helped friends that I used to work with as they have moved up in other organizations for money (which I guess is essentially freelancing in my own network)... but I have never sought out clients. Maybe I start with just bugging all of them. It sounds sort of idiotic that I haven't done that now that I type it out.

caracarn I mean the car thing is RIDICULOUS. Ten face punches level. The dude even has a take home police car, so we shouldn't have a problem being a one car family. We moved to live closer to work, but he insisted on this house because it has a garage car lift that was staying (granted it was a steal anyway, but that was for sure his favorite thing). I own an ELEVATOR for cars. It's just the biggest fights in my marriage have been about cars and I have sort of given up. I have been thinking about getting rid of my own car and telling him I need to borrow one of his until I can get a different one and just never get another one... and that's the best idea I have had to get rid of one. I drive a 2007 Ford Focus and driving one of his would stress me out. I need less stress, not more. He just has a very YOLO attitude about cars and travel. Just remind your spouse they are lucky that you have the strength of character to put your car wants behind your combined goals! What I wouldn't give to have a reasonable discussion with him about this!

dca Thanks for making me feel like I'm not unreasonable to think this might be possible. :) I need to read more about a glide path. Maybe that could be an option for me. I don't really want to downshift here, but downshifting in general might be an option I wasn't considering. I saw yesterday two part-time jobs that were in my field, but dismissed them. I think I'll put in an application and at least see if I get a call.

ooeei Thanks for the encouragement. I'm going to make some progress this weekend for sure. It's good to hear examples of people moving onto something more challenging and not regretting it. I'm ready!

bognish

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Re: Do I have F-you money?
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2017, 12:49:35 PM »
You look at your partners cars like a facepunch. He may look at your idea of quitting a job without a back up the same way. The cars might be the happy hobby that allows your partner to put up with a stressful job. Asking him to give up his pressure relief valve so you can quit your job without a backup might move the unhappiness from you to him and bring resentment into your relationship.

If my spouse asked me to give up a hobby so she could be healthy and happy I would. But if she did not put serious effort into balancing out the work load I could see myself getting bitter eventually.

If you are numbers/goals driven maybe come up with some that you can control and achieve to get a positive feedback loop going and remind you of the big picture instead of focusing on the negatives of the office: # home cooked meals, savings per month, something at the office. I don't like my job, my coworkers or my company, but it pays above market. I focus on what it allows me to do outside of work hours and remind myself that I don't need to get emotionally involved in work outcomes or drama. Its not ideal, but it allows me to get closer to FIRE.

life_travel

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Re: Do I have F-you money?
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2017, 05:21:23 PM »
So what if I got my cash savings to 50k, my expenses to match, my investments to 300k (no pension) and one steady freelance client? Would I be mustachian approved then? 

Number goals are my friends.
Hi June28
I'll voice a completely different opinion from a full time working mum that always worked and also did before and after school care :( I wish I spent more time with him.
Main question is what you are basically asking if you can be SAHM ? What does your husband thinks of that ?
If he is ok with that , can't you stay until February , collect your bonus , etc , that will bump your Efund to 30k plus .
Am I correct that his pension will be 43k indefinitely ? If you spent 50K last year ( not counting 3k that went towards double mortgage repayments ) without childcare , then all you need to do is to find some cuts to bring you to that figure , then have one freelance client for "extras" and you can be SAHM for 9 years . You can even still save! He can keep his car!
In 9 years your stache will almost double but it doesn't even matter as you can still live on his pension .
If he is good with this scenario, what  am I missing ? Apart from catastrophic situations .
Sorry I'm not familiar with pensions , etc as I'm not even eligible in any country , but what happens if you get divorced or your husband dies? Would you be still ok then ?
I suspect once you decompress and stay at home until youngest child goes to school , you'll find part time work then so it's not like you'll never earn a dollar :)

Dicey

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Re: Do I have F-you money?
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2017, 06:12:43 PM »
I just thought that given our stash situation, I might have been able to buy some months home with my kids while I looked, given that DH's income would cover our expenses. My family would definitely benefit from a couple months (or longer) of me focusing on just them. That's clearly not recommended by the forum. *
*Wait just a second here! Had you asked the question "Can I become a SAHP?", I'd have given you a totally different answer. I'd have posted the following link and encouraged you, just as I did in the last week or so for someone else on the forum. Get this book, asap. Parts of it are laughably outdated, but the general premise is solid.

https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Tightwad-Gazette-Promoting-Alternative/dp/0375752250

I think you can download a free pdf version, which isn't as good IMO, or your library might have it. Personally, I'd skim the .pdf version just long enough for my brand-new copy to arrive from Amazon. Totally worth the $20.00.

It will help you decide if you can swing it. For the record, I'm totally for it. Being there for your kids is more important than any damn job, unless you need to work to keep your family fed and a roof overhead. I'm not interested in discussing career vs. SAHP with anyone but june28, so please don't even start. Anyone is free to do whatever they think best for their situation. I'm addressing what seems to be her true question, based on her exact words. M'kay?

Another thought, now that you've posted more background. Your husband has a huge, stressful, dangerous job, yet you barely mention that aspect of his profession. Is fretting about the cars (eek!) replacing the source of your true worry, his job? Just wondering.

Suit

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Re: Do I have F-you money?
« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2017, 06:20:57 PM »
Have you spoken with your boss(es) about what you want from your job, whether you will be getting any other projects soon, and that you are unhappy with your current responsibilities?

Mariposa

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Re: Do I have F-you money?
« Reply #31 on: August 26, 2017, 09:40:23 AM »
dca Thanks for making me feel like I'm not unreasonable to think this might be possible. :) I need to read more about a glide path. Maybe that could be an option for me. I don't really want to downshift here, but downshifting in general might be an option I wasn't considering. I saw yesterday two part-time jobs that were in my field, but dismissed them. I think I'll put in an application and at least see if I get a call.

I'm currently scheduled to work 24h a week and have managed to limit the time I actually spend working to about ~26h. I'm lucky that in my particular job, there's a lot of flexibility in downshifting / upshifting. We're in a similar situation: ~300k invested, and we continue to be able to save. Starting in 2018, I'm thinking of going down to 16h (2 days) a week. I think it'd be a better balance for me and my family. But I also know I'm not suited to be a full-time, 7d a week SAHP. I took an extended (for the US) maternity leave of ~9mo, and I was very, very happy to go back to work. Maybe you should take a few days off and spend them with your kids to see how you would like the 100% SAHP role.

What we're doing does postpone any FIRE plans, but I would rather have the time now than in 10-15 years when our kid is older. My husband may want to work until full retirement age anyway; he isn't sure about RE.

If you're going to depend on your husband's salary 100%, I would make sure he has really, really good life and maybe disability insurance in place before you quit.

Playing with Fire UK

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Re: Do I have F-you money?
« Reply #32 on: August 26, 2017, 11:34:28 AM »
In addition to the family benefits of being a SAHP, and the benefits to the OP of not working, having a SAHP can save a lot of the costs that higher earners tend to incur (costs resulting in being short of time and energy).

It's not for me to say what is right for your family and career, but it sounds like there is scope to make the numbers work.

TaxChick

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Re: Do I have F-you money?
« Reply #33 on: August 26, 2017, 11:10:05 PM »
Have you had medical tests run to rule out issues such as thyroid that could be causing some of your anxiety issues? 

Dee18

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Re: Do I have F-you money?
« Reply #34 on: August 27, 2017, 06:12:56 AM »
One small thing to keep in mind is if you decide to go with a new job, try to negotiate a month or two between jobs.  I've done that twice and found it so relaxing to have that break but to not be worrying about finding a job.