Author Topic: Dishwashers?  (Read 5778 times)

AlanStache

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Dishwashers?
« on: July 27, 2014, 12:38:29 PM »
Does anyone have any numbers on new vs ~8-10 year old low end dishwashers?  Current one works fine but am curious on the potential energy savings of a newer one.  Current one was bought by the builder so I am sure it was the cheapest they could find.  We run it full 2-3 times per week. 

Have looked around online and not found many good numbers on what mine might cost to run.  I have electric hot water and power costs 0.118$/kwh.  I dont have a good number for the cost of my water, thinking it runs 20-30$/month.  If someone has any idea what the ROI might be or the pay back period I would be very interested to know.

Should I run the current one into the ground or keep an eye out on CL?  How do I know one off CL would work - would I have to hang out at the sellers place while it ran a cycle?

The builder was such a cheap bastard he used ridged pvc to connect the dishwasher to the water supply rather than the flexible hoses.  So when I pulled it out a few years ago the pvc broke and water went everywhere because there also was not a shut off valve. 

Scandium

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Re: Dishwashers?
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2014, 08:39:07 AM »
Interested in this as well. We have an old POS dishwasher, that don't clean all that well. But as long as it still works I'm in no hurry to replace. If i could save water and electricity, and get cleaner dishes, maybe I'd consider it.

horsepoor

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Re: Dishwashers?
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2014, 09:24:20 AM »
Anecdotal, but we put the most inexpensive Energy Star dishwasher from Home Depot in our old house when we moved out (took our fancy one with us to our new place) and it broke irreparably literally 1 month after the warranty expired.  Meanwhile, our $700 Maytag is going strong at about 8 years old, so I've concluded that it's false economy to buy the cheap dishwashers, or to replace a functioning ~8 year old DW that has proven reliable. 

As far as energy consumption, I doubt there have been many recent improvements that would manifest if you're already running on an efficient cycle without heated drying.

surfhb

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Re: Dishwashers?
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2014, 10:32:24 AM »
Excuse me for asking but I would figure that electric dishwashers would be on the top of the list of anti-mustasching appliances ? 

I haven't used one in probably 20 years

okashira

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Re: Dishwashers?
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2014, 10:48:34 AM »
Excuse me for asking but I would figure that electric dishwashers would be on the top of the list of anti-mustasching appliances ? 

I haven't used one in probably 20 years

Heck no. They use less water, less energy and take less time then handwashing unless you are a handwashing super - organized and have a perfect system.

surfhb

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Re: Dishwashers?
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2014, 10:58:07 AM »
Excuse me for asking but I would figure that electric dishwashers would be on the top of the list of anti-mustasching appliances ? 

I haven't used one in probably 20 years

Heck no. They use less water, less energy and take less time then handwashing unless you are a handwashing super - organized and have a perfect system.

Hmmm.  I find that difficult to believe but OK :).    It takes me 5 mins to wash dishes and pans after a meal.   Why would it take more energy and water if one were to simply turn and faucet on for 30 secs total for a quick rinse?
« Last Edit: July 28, 2014, 11:03:09 AM by surfhb »

Chranstronaut

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Re: Dishwashers?
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2014, 11:03:22 AM »
Excuse me for asking but I would figure that electric dishwashers would be on the top of the list of anti-mustasching appliances ? 

I haven't used one in probably 20 years

Heck no. They use less water, less energy and take less time then handwashing unless you are a handwashing super - organized and have a perfect system.

My perfect system in 10 easy steps:

1) Don't be afraid to touch dirty dishes with your bare hands.
2) Scrape as much food off dishes and briefly rinse sticky liquids off plates --rub with your fingers to help remove it quickly rather than blasting it with water pressure.  Turn off water between dishes -- this is not hard.
3) Put newly scraped dishes into one half of kitchen sink.  Don't fill it with water yet, but plug the sink with a stopper.
4) Starting with the least "gross" dishes, use a small amount of soap on your scrub brush and wash the dish OVER the other dishes.  Turn off water between dishes.
5) Allow soapy water to build up around other dishes and fill half of sink.
6) Once soapy water starts to fill sink, let dishes that need soaking do their thing.
7) Use soapy water already in sink to wash the second half of dishes.  Rinse with small amount of clean water from faucet.
8) Dry clean dishes.
9-10) Do whatever you want, you smart dish washing Mustachian, you.  Maybe water your plants with your grey water or use your clean dishes to cook a homemade meal.

Dezrah

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Re: Dishwashers?
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2014, 11:28:38 AM »
More anecdotal discussions:

I complained to my mom recently about our cheap dishwasher in our apartment and she shed some insight since she only recently went through a very thorough research period.  Apparently there has been quite a bit of government legislation over the past few years mandating the energy and water usage of dishwashers in a cycle.  There has been similar legislation limiting the allowable ingredients in dishwasher detergent.  The net result is the latest machines are probably slightly less amazing than their predecessors just a few years ago.  This is is not to rail against government or environmental regulation, just pointing out that there is more to the story than your machine is cheap.

AlanStache

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Re: Dishwashers?
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2014, 11:31:58 AM »
Excuse me for asking but I would figure that electric dishwashers would be on the top of the list of anti-mustasching appliances ? 

I haven't used one in probably 20 years

Heck no. They use less water, less energy and take less time then handwashing unless you are a handwashing super - organized and have a perfect system.

Reading around the web there seems to be a good bit of 'yes or no-depends'.  Seems there is the potential for less cost with proper hand washing technique but as applied by most people the machines are better.  Also I read that even with good procedure the delta is relatively small, new dishwashers can use 5-6 gallons per load.

All this MMM stuff is on a continuum and not binary.  Some make choices where others dont.

Not sure about the heated dry, I think I have it but not sure I have the option to not use it.  That could be the bulk of the energy savings.  Will have to check it tonight.

I do think twice about replacing something that is working fine and taking a chance even on a new unit vs one from CL.  Maybe keep it till it needs any work I cant do then ditch it.

AlanStache

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Re: Dishwashers?
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2014, 11:36:13 AM »
More anecdotal discussions:

I complained to my mom recently about our cheap dishwasher in our apartment and she shed some insight since she only recently went through a very thorough research period.  Apparently there has been quite a bit of government legislation over the past few years mandating the energy and water usage of dishwashers in a cycle.  There has been similar legislation limiting the allowable ingredients in dishwasher detergent.  The net result is the latest machines are probably slightly less amazing than their predecessors just a few years ago.  This is is not to rail against government or environmental regulation, just pointing out that there is more to the story than your machine is cheap.

Did not see anything along those lines, but did not get into the hard core dishwasher forums :-)

You are saying that new machines were changed to use new soaps and end up using more energy?  Might buy that if the new soaps were less harsh requiring longer wash times...

Dezrah

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Re: Dishwashers?
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2014, 12:09:50 PM »
More anecdotal discussions:

I complained to my mom recently about our cheap dishwasher in our apartment and she shed some insight since she only recently went through a very thorough research period.  Apparently there has been quite a bit of government legislation over the past few years mandating the energy and water usage of dishwashers in a cycle.  There has been similar legislation limiting the allowable ingredients in dishwasher detergent.  The net result is the latest machines are probably slightly less amazing than their predecessors just a few years ago.  This is is not to rail against government or environmental regulation, just pointing out that there is more to the story than your machine is cheap.

Did not see anything along those lines, but did not get into the hard core dishwasher forums :-)

You are saying that new machines were changed to use new soaps and end up using more energy?  Might buy that if the new soaps were less harsh requiring longer wash times...

I admit I don't know all the specifics.  However, I think the formulas for soaps and requirements for machines are separate actions.

Machines: Limit on water use and energy use (not strictly about efficiency).  There was a point in time when "cheap" or even expensive dishwashers could get the job done by just using more water or running for longer.  Mandates on per use meant that cheaper dishwashers are no longer viable.  New "cheap" machines probably have a long way to go in engineering development before they are able to achieve previous levels of performance. 

Think of it as similar to the "toilet flush" mandate.  There was a time when toilets did their thing by just using a lot of water.  Low flush mandates meant that all of a sudden toilets had to go through a crisis period of re-engineering to achieve the same levels of performance for heavy loads.  I've heard to this day there is still a black market for high flush toilets in the US.

Soap: Here's a link about why dishwater soaps are less good than before:  http://www.geappliances.com/appliances/dishwashers/why-is-there-white-film-on-glassware-dishes-dishwasher-interior.htm

RetiredAt63

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Re: Dishwashers?
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2014, 02:22:07 PM »
Re film and phosphates, phosphate is the usual limiting nutrient in aquatic systems.  Add extra and the algae thrive.  For some reason people don't like green lakes.  Or the dead fish once most of the oxygen is used up by bacteria breaking down the extra algae as they die.

Interesting take on Canada's phosphates:http://www.davidsuzuki.org/blogs/queen-of-green/2011/01/phosphates-in-laundry-detergents-during/

Back to the regularly schedule programming . . .

Silverwood

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Re: Dishwashers?
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2014, 02:52:50 PM »
Off topic but the reason I considered getting rid of mine was space. I have only one wall for the kitchen. If I took out the dishwasher I would have another space for drawers/storage.