Author Topic: Depressed, jobless & living with parents  (Read 18301 times)

Credaholic

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Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« on: August 17, 2014, 11:13:02 PM »
This question is only partly financial, but I've seen such great advice given on this forum whether it be regarding anxiety disorders or relationship problems, I think this is just a smart group who might have some insight and ideas.

My brother is 27, Ivy League educated, and worked in finance as an analyst. After a few years he had what appears to me to be a mental breakdown. He quit his job, moved back home, and has basically sat on the couch watching TV for almost 3 years now. He claims he's physically ill despite the fact that no doctor has ever been able to fond anything wrong, and he refuses therapy or psych medication. He's declared all doctors quacks, and has instead focused on a lot of holistic things - vitamins, magnesium sprays, sprinkling salt in his water, etc. His self diagnosis was/is adrenal fatigue. He claims he's incapable of working, that his brain just sort of turns off if he tries to do things like reading, and it seems his life plan is now to get onto disability. We've encouraged exercise, but he's basically sedintary and almost a hermit. He occasionally goes our for quiz night, which seems odd to me given his health complaints, but no one begrudges him this because we want him to get out there! It's scary and sad seeing him never leave the house. Anyway, I mention all of this because maybe somebody somewhere has encountered something like this and can offer some insight?? Depression is hard enough to deal with, but when someone refused to acknowledge the possibility of a mental issue and insists instead that it's physical, you're left floundering a bit on how to help.

The financial side is that he's blown through all of his savings except his 401K. I'm upset that my parents are supporting him now fully. He never paid rent, but he paid for car insurance, some food, etc. He now is fully supported by my parents, and my dad even paid off his car because he was worried late payments were ruining my brother's credit. I tried to tell him that ship had sailed, and that credit scores can improve over time, and that was the least of my brother's issues right now, but he just couldn't stand the thought of the car being repossessed when only a couple thousand was owed.

My question is, what should my parents do? Should they tell him to collapse the 401K, pay the penalties, and support himself as long as he's able? Should they make him move out and hit rock bottom? Should they continue their financial support? Should they try to help him get on disability? I'm not sure if he'd even be able to. He has been recently diagnosed with chronic fatigue - a meaningless diagnosis in my opinion given the parameters - but isn't doing any of the things the doc asked of him which included cognitive behavioral therapy, exercise, and getting out into the world on a daily basis. But disability is still his long term plan since he truly seems to believe he's sick and will never be well again. Nothing has come of it yet because my brother can't seem to take action - making a follow up doctor's appointment for instance takes him months to even pick up the phone.

His 401K could probably support him for another year without any help from my parents, finding a basement room to rent cheap, etc. Financially my parents are okay in a very non-mmm kind of way. They plan on retiring in 5 years, but could not afford to do so now and maintain their lifestyle. I think that they should sell their house and downsize with a smaller commute, but that's not currently possible with my brother living with them. They're very hesitant to make my brother collapse the 401K because they don't him to lose out on years of compounding returns for retirement. I get that, but in this situation I think worrying about the now is of greater importance. What should they do? What should he do? Does anyone have any idea how to break through to him, or what he's going through from his perspective?

Goldielocks

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2014, 12:14:50 AM »
Why are you upset that your parents are fully supporting him?

You need to figure out how to resolve that before you can help.   Maybe talk to your parents about your feelings once you have thought about it?  That helped me with my sibling jealousy.

I had someone similar.  The best thing you can do is remain a positive person in his life and invite him out often on short outings with you, to his stamina level, and have him mixing with society to spark his mind and interests.  After a bit the symptoms may lessen and he will find it so much easier to get back into life, even if he is no longer on the ivy league track.

former player

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2014, 01:59:28 AM »
Your brother was a high achiever who burnt out/had a breakdown.  He has a safe space to live in for as long as your parents are prepared to give it to him.   Two points that occur to me are -

1) Your brother is an adult, and nothing you have said suggests to me that he needs to be forced to have treatment for a mental illness, or that any doctor would force such treatment on him.

2) I'm not sure what the point would be in your brother moving out of his parent's house and paying rent.  His parents seem prepared to support him for the time being.  The alternative is him moving out, spending his retirement fund and probably not taking proper care either of himself or of his finances: I can't see that being an improvement on where he is now, either for him or the rest of his family.

I have a relative who has been in a similar position to your brother.  He is now in his 70s and since his twenties has never worked or moved out of the family home.   I suppose his life has been limited by modern standards, but by the standards of not that long ago, his life would not have been thought so unusual.  Sometimes we do the best we can, and have to change our ideas of what is good to fit changed circumstances.  PM me if you want to talk more about that.

sarah8001

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2014, 02:26:29 AM »
Just kind of out of the blue here, but is any of your family dog people? My sister had a similar episode (also diagnosed with chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia, the last resorts of many drs who don't know what else to do), and taking care of her dog helped keep her from giving up all together. He doesn't sound ready for the responsibility side of an animal, but animal therapy works. Maybe have someone with dogs visit him? Maybe if your parents are interested in getting a dog, but have been putting it off, now's a good time?

marty998

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2014, 04:12:56 AM »
When I was young I was lucky enough to visit a couple of third world countries. This showed me just how good we have it, and there but for the grace of God go I.

I've been there before. Depressed, lonely, jobless and living at home. But my experiences had taught me that I should swallow a bag of concrete, harden up and get on with life. It was the best piece of advice nobody gave me. Everyone kept saying "cheer up, it'll get better, things will turn around". All that is crap. It won't turn around unless you take your own initiative. He is lucky enough to be able to choose his own destiny. Most people around the world don't have a choice in where their next meal comes from, let alone a career/family/life in general.

After 3 years on his arse, your brother has redefined in his own mind what his physical and/or mental capabilities are. He no longer sees possibilities, hope, opportunities. If I were to stick my neck out and be harsh, I would say that he is not "stressed" enough into changing his situation.

He has no responsibilities, and he is accountable to no one. If he had a wife & kids, do you think the Mrs would tolerate him in this state? I doubt it.

I can shout my mouth off telling you what he needs to do, but it won't change a thing. I would suggest the frame in which he lives needs to be turned upside down - like parents saying we are going to sell the house, move and downsize and there won't be a bed for him in the new place.

It's too late for a smack across the face. But it's not too late to change his comfy reality.

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2014, 06:12:42 AM »
Marty998, if he has clinical depression, all of those thing would just make him spiral down harder. If he's a loafer, they might be helpful.

I had someone similar.  The best thing you can do is remain a positive person in his life and invite him out often on short outings with you, to his stamina level, and have him mixing with society to spark his mind and interests.  After a bit the symptoms may lessen and he will find it so much easier to get back into life, even if he is no longer on the ivy league track.

That is a great recommendation. Also, find some other people he can talk to who have been through or are going through what he is. It might help him feel understood. He's probably extremely self centred right now, so talking to others might bring him out of his own head a bit when he hears others are feeling very similar things. Can you go over there regularly to do an activity with him that he would eventually be able to do with a group?

It's sad he won't try CBT or any of the other recommendations from the doctor, but as an adult he can't be forced. Encourage your parents to help him get daily exercise and out into society every day. See if you can encourage him slowly that CBT might be worthwhile just for his own personal good, rather than as a means to get him back into the workforce and out of your parents care.

amha

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2014, 06:52:52 AM »
Marty998, if he has clinical depression, all of those thing would just make him spiral down harder. If he's a loafer, they might be helpful.

I had someone similar.  The best thing you can do is remain a positive person in his life and invite him out often on short outings with you, to his stamina level, and have him mixing with society to spark his mind and interests.  After a bit the symptoms may lessen and he will find it so much easier to get back into life, even if he is no longer on the ivy league track.

That is a great recommendation.

I second this (or third it, I guess). Your brother seems to have fairly serious depression, which is a disease that can be very hard to understand from the outside. Your parents are trying to help him. Maybe they are helping him (???); maybe what he actually needs is a "smack across the face," as a previous poster said. But who knows? That probably sounds a bit defeatist and pessimistic, but the trouble is that different people can need very different interventions.

Maybe if there's a fundamental thing your brother needs from you, it's love, hope, and optimism.

None of this is really a financial thing---you can be early-retired and still be clinically depressed.

Have you read Allie Brosh's comics about depression? http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2011/10/adventures-in-depression.html

and: http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2013/05/depression-part-two.html


SnpKraklePhyz

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2014, 07:27:11 AM »
I agree with the other posters that there is little if anything that you can do to "make" your brother do anything. There is a little more your parents can do but I don't know that it could cause the change you want to see.  I do want to add to the discussion that the actual medical community does not recognize "adrenal fatigue" as a real thing.  Here is a 2010 article at Science Based Medicine about adrenal fatigue. http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/fatigued-by-a-fake-disease/

It may help you or your parents.  I hope you and your parents can find an effective course of action.

bako_frugal

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2014, 09:44:21 AM »
I would disagree about pushing to have your brother use his 401k.  Whether it is physical or mental, your brother obviously is some sort of sick.  Let the 401k sit in the background there is no point in intentionally pushing the breaking point.  He will hit some sort of bottom anyways even if it is a glide, but if you push then it could play into a persecution complex.  It might be a scarier thought; but with high achieving people schizo-affective disorders should also be considered.  Your brother is also in the age range where they typically manifest.  A very small percentage do spontaneously improve, but anything in the schizo spectrum tends to be lifelong.  Disability might be the correct course of action.

If you are worried about your parents, then help them encourage your bother to get on disability and make sure that a portion goes to them for food / rent.

Credaholic

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2014, 09:47:30 AM »
There isn't any jealousy that my parents are supporting him now, I just think it's the wrong course of action. Maybe I'm wrong. But I don't see how anything that is happening right now is helping him, and I do think (hope?) that if he didn't have our parents things might not have progressed this far down. If he HAD to support himself maybe he would. Or maybe he'd be more proactive about getting on disability at the very least. I absolutely don't want him back on the Ivy/Wall Street track. I don't think it was the right direction for him in the first place. I think he could make a brilliant teacher/professor (he has a history degree) but even if he didn't find a new "career" and was working as a part time teller at a bank or something, I would be very happy. Sitting on the couch all day is dragging him further and further down, and I wish he was in the position where he was forced to do something, anything to try and snap him out of it.

I hear of people like him who live with their parents until their dying days, but the one difference is at least all of them have recognized depression, or anxiety, or even schizophrenia in one case and are seeking treatment. He refuses treatment, and I agree, isn't in a bad enough place where treatment could ever be forced. But this also makes me feel like he's well enough to turn off the Kardashians, shower, shave, put on some real clothes, and do something with his life. Ironically he's seen much of the world, but blames the vaccines he got before backpacking through India as a potential reason for his sickness. He believes he did heavy metal damage to himself. But I agree, and again, maybe I'm wrong, with the poster saying he needs to lose his cushy reality to redefine what he's mentally and physically capable of.

And what happens to people when their parents are gone? Ours are older. He won't be able to live there til he's 70. My mom could actually put up with that if it was necessary, but my dad can't mentally handle it. He's already cracking, their marriage is cracking, and he deals with depression issues of his own. Also, as I said, it's preventing them from making the changes they need to in their lives to be able to retire.

We aren't a dog family, but actually have very supportive family friends who have "hired" him to walk their dogs a few times a week. He sometimes does it for awhile. I'm honestly not sure how he does it, can't imagine him picking up poop or dealing with slobber. The mere mention of my toddler's bodily functions makes him visibly crawl out of his skin, and he left the room yesterday when I changed a slightly peed on diaper. I definitely think the dog walking is good for him. I also hope that seeing his nephew is good for him, although despite the fact that my son loves his uncle, my brother chooses to interact with him very little.

I've emailed him Allie Brosh's writing. Unfortunately, all mention of depression makes him explode. I've tried to come at it from the perspective of maybe you are physically ill, and because of everything that's done to your life you must now consequently be dealing with some depression, and doesn't it make sense to seek help for that? He didn't really argue with that logic (after I carefully rephrased over and over) but the half dozen times my parents have strong armed him into seeing a therapist have been incredibly pointless. He thinks they're all stupid, and if you're not willing to do the work, therapy can't do anything for you.

We're all painfully aware of everything behind the adrenal fatigue "disease". Again, a hot button issue with my brother because he's declared Western medicine quacks and is looking more into naturopathic medicine. However, even with this he self diagnoses and treats himself, rather than finding an ND that he does trust and working with them on a consistent basis. For all of his assertions that he was literally dying when he came home 3 years ago, and that he's debilitatingly sick, he has sought very little medical help. As soon as one doc runs blood work that comes back normal, he stops seeing them and maybe books in with a new doc for the same tests and results 6 months later. It's like he's paralyzed or doesn't actually want help.

To those who think he shouldn't get tough love and be forced back out into the world, should he qualify for disability? Is there any logical reason to save the 401k rather than using it to support his current needs? Why is it okay for someone to live of their parents until they're 70 with no diagnosis and no efforts at treatment?

Credaholic

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2014, 10:08:26 AM »
It might be a scarier thought; but with high achieving people schizo-affective disorders should also be considered.  Your brother is also in the age range where they typically manifest.  A very small percentage do spontaneously improve, but anything in the schizo spectrum tends to be lifelong.  Disability might be the correct course of action.

I've considered schizophrenia briefly just because of the time frame, but I don't believe he's hearing voices or anything like that - is there a greater range of schizophrenic disorders than that? I should also mention that we all think it's highly likely that he is somewhere on the autistic/Asperger's spectrum. Although high functioning and so never addressed as a child, he has never been quite normal.

unpolloloco

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2014, 10:21:34 AM »
To those who think he shouldn't get tough love and be forced back out into the world, should he qualify for disability? Is there any logical reason to save the 401k rather than using it to support his current needs? Why is it okay for someone to live of their parents until they're 70 with no diagnosis and no efforts at treatment?

He could qualify for disability with a depression diagnosis.  But he's unlikely to qualify if he won't talk to a doctor more than once.  One compelling reason to save the 401k would be for when your parents can't support him anymore - otherwise, he'd be on the streets at that point unless you support him.  What's "okay" is very subjective - and depends on way more factors than what are listed here.

The big issue I see here doesn't have anything to do with what's right or okay or best - it's that your parents are being severely affected.  Have a very frank discussion with them (and only them) about issues you're seeing with them as a result of your brother.  Don't pass judgement in this conversation.  Don't talk about "right." Talk in objective facts and talk about what they see as the plan moving forward.

frugaliknowit

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2014, 11:28:55 AM »
Your parents need to set a deadline for your brother to have some type of job (anything) and get out of the house.

Roots&Wings

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2014, 11:34:21 AM »
...Anyway, I mention all of this because maybe somebody somewhere has encountered something like this and can offer some insight?? Depression is hard enough to deal with, but when someone refused to acknowledge the possibility of a mental issue and insists instead that it's physical, you're left floundering a bit on how to help.

...He has been recently diagnosed with chronic fatigue - a meaningless diagnosis in my opinion given the parameters - but isn't doing any of the things the doc asked of him which included cognitive behavioral therapy, exercise, and getting out into the world on a daily basis.

Chronic fatigue syndrome is NOT the same as depression.  Have you read about it?  For example, CDC: http://www.cdc.gov/cfs/ 

Or for a personal account, Laura Hillenbrand (best-selling author): http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/04/an-author-escapes-from-chronic-fatigue-syndrome/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

I was in a similar boat in my late teens.  Came down with an unknown virus, developed extreme fatigue, was in bed most of the time, couldn't function normally.  You become extremely jaded with traditional medicine and people who think 'it's all in your head' when it's a very real physical issue. 

You can also become extremely socially isolated because you're unable to function like you used to, which is beyond frustrating.  Family support was essential for me.  Pushing someone in this situation to get out, go it alone, and fully support themselves could be a death sentence.

If your brother was diagnosed with CFS and is unable to work, he can apply for disability benefits (http://www.cdc.gov/cfs/news/features/disability.html), but would need to be working with a doctor. 

Have you asked him how you can help/support him?  Honestly, when I was really ill, there wasn't a whole lot except having a smiling supportive family around who realized I wasn't crazy, wanted the best for me, and helped me seek out treatment.  I wish your family the best.  If you'd like to message further privately, feel free.

totoro

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2014, 11:50:09 AM »
IMO the symptoms are consistent with serious mental and potentially physical illness.  CF is a real disease and he does have this diagnosis.  It is too bad that he is not following up on any of the treatment recommendations. 

I too would consider whether he also has a schizo-affective disorder.  Your description fits the symptoms: http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/schizoaffective-disorder/basics/symptoms/con-20029221

Getting him through to a diagnosis, if that is what it is or for whatever it is, and then an application for disability benefits would be a good move for everyone's peace of mind about the future.  It doesn't mean he has to give up on improvement, but it does mean that he would have a minimum amount if he does not improve along with access to subsidized care potentially (in Canada it does anyway). 

If I was in your shoes I would focus less on the financial support or kick in the pants aspects, and more on how your family is going to help him going forward when he will not or can not follow treatment recommendations. 

I'm not an expert on that but there are people who do help with this situation where I live.  Usually you start by going through your doctor for a referral.

I understand you are frustrated but choosing to believe you and your parents are "enabling" him by being there is probably not the right approach.  You would not take this approach if he had something obvious like cancer, yet it appears to me that there is a high likelihood that there is a significant mental illness here.

bacchi

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2014, 11:58:35 AM »
If your brother had debilitating cancer, would you be here wondering if your parents should continue paying for his essentials?

Depression is a disease. It's obvious from this thread that many still consider mental illness to be some kind of character flaw or a way to weasel out of working. Your brother is one of them.

http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyclopedia/content.aspx?ContentTypeID=1&ContentID=3047

[Totori beat me to it.]

mustachianism_is_aredpill

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2014, 01:24:54 PM »
Not much to add here, except I have a cousin in a similar state, in his 40s now. I doubt it's just a matter of him being lazy or unwilling to take responsibility for his life or whatever. There is a likelihood of other mental issues being present.

It is hard if he refuses treatment for his issues. If he's happy with his current life, I don't know if there's much you can do to convince him to do the therapy work.

rmendpara

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2014, 02:02:59 PM »
Tough love helps people who are lazy.

Tough love will hurt people who have psychological or other issues which need to be addressed. I'm no doctor or other medical professional, but this smells like depression full blown or some other anxiety symptoms?

shotgunwilly

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2014, 02:20:23 PM »
I don't mean this to offend anyone here, as I'm asking a serious question and not targeting anyone specifically, but...

How can you possibly know if it's just the person being an extremely lazy person (which in turn can cause depression) versus a "mental illness?" 

bako_frugal

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2014, 02:39:36 PM »
I don't mean this to offend anyone here, as I'm asking a serious question and not targeting anyone specifically, but...

How can you possibly know if it's just the person being an extremely lazy person (which in turn can cause depression) versus a "mental illness?"

A friend of mine dealt with a schizophrenic family member and I remember the progression which took about 3-4 years before he would admit that term.  The one thing that stands out to me is that the person with schizophrenia was convinced she was being made sick by the high voltage power lines near the house.  Not too much different from being convinced it was heavy metal poisoning.  Stopped working, stayed home, got more and more withdrawn.  The really weird behaviour was about 4 years after it all started.  Sadly the family just basically broke apart.

I don't think anyone can possibly know for sure.  That is sort of the scary things about delusions, to the person with them they are real.  Same with depression, that is what is real for the person. 

IMO a lazy person could probably be nudged back into taking care of themselves.  This doesn't sould like that type of case.


totoro

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2014, 02:44:14 PM »
You can't make an armchair diagnosis and be sure of anything.  All you can do is point out that the reported symptoms are congruent with mental illness. 

As an aside, what we do know for sure is that "laziness" is a by-product of many underlying mental health issues and forms of psychopathology such as depression, sleep disorders, and schizophrenia. 

Most people have some motivation to live independently and have social bonds outside of immediate family as adults.  When this is missing then, among those that I know, there is some underlying cause.

The point is not making a diagnosis here but looking at what the next reasonable steps might be given the impact the behaviours are having.   

Tai

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2014, 03:01:05 PM »
Laziness doesn't cause depression. Chronic illness can lead to depression though. Your brother needs to be assessed by a psychiatrist in order to get a diagnosis, that would help with a disability claim. Maybe that is the incentive that will get him to go. If he has physical symptoms those can be caused by depression, it's not just all in someone's head. Or physical symptoms could cause depression. It's a chicken and egg thing sometimes.

Maybe focusing more on how to move forward, how you and your parents can help him get treatment that he needs is the way to go. I understand your anger, I have an aunt that is a mentally ill parasite who always refused any assessment/treatment. And she has never gotten better. But as one of my friends pointed out, for my grandparents that was their daughter, how would you feel if it were your son who was ill like this?

Good luck, none of this is easy to cope with.

theonethatgotaway

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2014, 03:01:56 PM »
Your focus shouldn't be on 'who he should be' or 'what he should be doing'.

He needs support and since he doesn't have it from docs he needs you. Emotional support. Luckily financially your parents are able to help. Be grateful for that! They're doing the best they can and giving what they can. Don't judge him, don't tell him what's wrong with him, don't make him feel like less of a member of society (why won't you get a job?). Be there for him. You can't figure it out for him.

(My uncle packed up and went home, same story as yours, was later diagnosed schizophrenia,  my brother had a 3 year breakdown until they could accurate identify what he actually had, still lives with my parents and is financially supported- both of these people were genius level smart, had great jobs and prospects and were very social. Mental illness is not a simple thing and every case is different. What is common is this happening in the 20s)

Best of luck OP- seek out treatment for yourself regarding this- that's something you could do to help yourself cope and not worry too much.

source: been there.




Credaholic

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2014, 03:02:50 PM »

Chronic fatigue syndrome is NOT the same as depression.  Have you read about it?  For example, CDC: http://www.cdc.gov/cfs/ 

Or for a personal account, Laura Hillenbrand (best-selling author): http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/04/an-author-escapes-from-chronic-fatigue-syndrome/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

I was in a similar boat in my late teens.  Came down with an unknown virus, developed extreme fatigue, was in bed most of the time, couldn't function normally.  You become extremely jaded with traditional medicine and people who think 'it's all in your head' when it's a very real physical issue. 

You can also become extremely socially isolated because you're unable to function like you used to, which is beyond frustrating.  Family support was essential for me.  Pushing someone in this situation to get out, go it alone, and fully support themselves could be a death sentence.

If your brother was diagnosed with CFS and is unable to work, he can apply for disability benefits (http://www.cdc.gov/cfs/news/features/disability.html), but would need to be working with a doctor. 

Have you asked him how you can help/support him?  Honestly, when I was really ill, there wasn't a whole lot except having a smiling supportive family around who realized I wasn't crazy, wanted the best for me, and helped me seek out treatment.  I wish your family the best.  If you'd like to message further privately, feel free.

My hesitancy to say he's diagnosed with CFS is that the doc basically said yes, since you've been fatigued for a period of more than 3 months you'd qualify for this diagnosis. That sounds to me like something that could easily be caused by depression or any other number of issues, but then classified as CFS so I'm hesitant to say he's been properly diagnosed with CFS. I also just went through the diagnosing criteria on your link, and given the 4/8 symptoms listed here - http://www.cdc.gov/cfs/diagnosis/step-5.html -  I'm now doubtful that the doctor was officially diagnosing him as CFS anyway. He maybe has the first two symptoms. There doesn't appear to be anything wrong with his memory, no pain complaints, etc.

When the issue of disability was brought up at that appointment the doc said he didn't even want to go there, that prognosis for my brother was excellent, and he wanted to see what they could do with treatment (which included the CBT, seeing a nephrologist to rule out kidney problems (he had frequent UTIs as a kid), exercising daily, taking various vitamins, and getting back into the world to recondition his over-sensitivity to the stimulation of the outside world). It was also suggested that there were drugs he could go on, but this wasn't pushed because of my brother's steadfast refusal to take any medication. He hasn't completed any of these things except that he finally saw a nephrologist last week.

What treatment did you receive? I will definitely PM you, I appreciate you offering and have a lot of questions and really want to understand my brother's perspective of things.

I too would consider whether he also has a schizo-affective disorder.  Your description fits the symptoms: http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/schizoaffective-disorder/basics/symptoms/con-20029221

It's terrifying to even consider, but he fits almost all of these symptoms. I don't believe he's having any hallucinations, and I'm not sure that I would describe his moments of increased energy as manic, but the other 5 symptoms all fit him.

If your brother had debilitating cancer, would you be here wondering if your parents should continue paying for his essentials?

Depression is a disease. It's obvious from this thread that many still consider mental illness to be some kind of character flaw or a way to weasel out of working. Your brother is one of them.

http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyclopedia/content.aspx?ContentTypeID=1&ContentID=3047

[Totori beat me to it.]

I ABSOLUTELY believe that depression is a disease, and his family is more than willing to support him in it the same way we would if there was a physical illness. This has been expressed ad nauseum to him, and only angers him. The problem is that he needs more than love and financial support, his disease (if that's what he has) needs to be treated! I look at it like a drug addiction, that he's not going to admit to the problem and get help until he's at rock bottom.

And if he's right, that he's not depressed, then he does need to snap out of the mental idea that he's incapable of exerting himself at all. As long as we're not talking about the current state of his life, he is capable of having energetic, interesting, happy conversations. In fact I think he's become very bored and lonely in his life - when we do chat he perks up momentarily and is a completely different person. Then when I have to hang up the phone it's like he flatlines. Voice goes dead, etc.

Basically the options are 1) depression/anxiety/mental disorder of some kind; 2) physical illness; 3) lazy. The first two he needs to seek medical help for, the 3rd he needs a good kick in the ass. I do not think that it's option number 3, but if he won't properly seek medical help, does he need a good kick in the ass to get him to seek medical help? 

The point is not making a diagnosis here but looking at what the next reasonable steps might be given the impact the behaviours are having.   

Do you have any suggestions? This issue has been the central focus of the whole family for almost 3 years now. My mom is an MD (general practice) with plenty of experience in helping patients get the help they need, but is not having any success with my brother. He sort of hates her the most as a result of her efforts. There have been various (very soft) ultimatums given to try to coax him into getting help (which is why he's seen therapists half a dozen times) but none of these have been effective. He has also been given plenty of "hands off" periods to try to sort it out on his own, but nothing has come of this. What are we supposed to do, besides loving him (we all do), talking to him, etc.?

And thanks to everyone for all of your responses. Every time I go to respond, more are posted, and I appreciate how supportive everyone is.

marty998

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2014, 04:01:20 PM »
I ABSOLUTELY believe that depression is a disease, and his family is more than willing to support him in it the same way we would if there was a physical illness. This has been expressed ad nauseum to him, and only angers him. The problem is that he needs more than love and financial support, his disease (if that's what he has) needs to be treated! I look at it like a drug addiction, that he's not going to admit to the problem and get help until he's at rock bottom.

And if he's right, that he's not depressed, then he does need to snap out of the mental idea that he's incapable of exerting himself at all. As long as we're not talking about the current state of his life, he is capable of having energetic, interesting, happy conversations. In fact I think he's become very bored and lonely in his life - when we do chat he perks up momentarily and is a completely different person. Then when I have to hang up the phone it's like he flatlines. Voice goes dead, etc.

Perhaps I was a bit harsh in my initial response. I don't quite agree that depression is a disease, but certainly I agree that it is a recognisable mental illness.

There's a multitude of causes but I think it boils down to 2 main ones with 2 different solutions. If there was a tragic event in his life that has caused a profound sadness then he needs counselling, or a good friend to talk to, whether he likes it or not, and he will needs to see that life can be different. If the problem is a chemical imbalance in his brain, such as low dopamine, then between him and his doc they will need to find the right combination of meds.

bako_frugal

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2014, 04:28:06 PM »

Do you have any suggestions? This issue has been the central focus of the whole family for almost 3 years now. My mom is an MD (general practice) with plenty of experience in helping patients get the help they need, but is not having any success with my brother. He sort of hates her the most as a result of her efforts. There have been various (very soft) ultimatums given to try to coax him into getting help (which is why he's seen therapists half a dozen times) but none of these have been effective. He has also been given plenty of "hands off" periods to try to sort it out on his own, but nothing has come of this. What are we supposed to do, besides loving him (we all do), talking to him, etc.?



Has your mother said what she thinks the problem is?

BTW; it sounds like you are doing what you can.  Your brother is lucky to have the family that he does.

Cpa Cat

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2014, 04:53:13 PM »
I sympathize. My brother is bipolar. He's also lazy.

Having a real mental or physical illness does not exempt a person from also having character flaws.

There is plenty that my brother could do to help himself manage his illness. He is fairly functional while on medication - but if it goes beyond popping a pill, then he's not interested. Exercise? Pfft. Healthy diet? Pfft. Regular check ins with his psychiatrist? Pfft. Support groups to help him manage his illness? Pfft. Take the steps needed to get on and stay on disability? Pfft.

He has intentionally gone off his meds when parents/girlfriends have pushed him too hard to accomplish anything.

He frequently leeches off parents, grandparents and girlfriends (for as long as they're willing to put up with it).

My experience is that there is nothing you can do to stop your parents from enabling and there is nothing you can do to help him "see the light." You just can't do it from your position as a child and sibling. Your parents are grown ups and they have a different relationship with him than you do. Tell them your opinion if you want, but do it once and then leave it alone. It may serve to make you feel better about not being silent, but it is unlikely to serve any other purpose. My response to my mother whenever my brother comes up in conversation is, "Oh, he's living with you again and you just paid another $5,000 for his credit card? That's too bad. How's work?"

As for your brother - anything you suggest will be met with immediate defensiveness and be dismissed. This is the inevitable reaction to having a sibling criticize you about anything. You probably do more harm than good by giving him suggestions, because his knee-jerk reaction will be that you are wrong and therefore your suggestion is wrong. Maybe one day he'll hear it from someone else or will come up with it on his own, and then he can embrace it. Invite him out for dinner, invite him hiking, join him for trivia night. Avoid  getting involved in discussions about his illness (I'm sorry to hear that you're still having a hard time. I hope you'll be able to find the right treatment one day.")

Someone brought up cancer. If my bipolar brother had cancer and used it as an excuse to leech off my 65-year-old working mother, while being emotionally manipulative and refusing to take appropriate steps toward healthfulness - I would have a problem with that. And I would say nothing. Because no one is interested in my opinion about whether or not they should take care of my poor, sick brother.


myrax

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2014, 05:03:01 PM »
A few years ago I ended up in a similar state, with most of the symptoms of CFS, due to a reaction to metal. If he has a screw in a broken bone or a body piercing or a titanium dental implant, it might be the cause. Metal sensitivities can change over time, so his body piercing might have been okay once, and now it's not. You can get tested (the MELISA test) for sensitivities that might not show up on skin tests.

It's one of those things that is more commonly accepted in Europe, but still not accepted fully in the US, so he might be interested in it. Almost all of the mainstream press about the issue is on Dick Van Dyke's titanium sensitivity: http://www.newsmaxhealth.com/Headline/Dick-Van-Dyke-mystery-illness-dental-implants-titanium/2013/06/03/id/507736/

It's really unlikely that this is his problem, but ever since I lost months of my life to the problem, I always try to point out to people that metal sensitivities, while rare, can mimic CFS.

totoro

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #28 on: August 18, 2014, 05:08:30 PM »
My suggestion would be to contact mental health awareness groups for advice.  In Canada we have local health units that provide referrals and the Canadian Mental Health Association.  Do you have something like this where you are?

As you know, diagnosis requires specialist assessment.  His doctor's opinion that he has a bright outlook may or may not be accurate.  Given the passage of time in this state I would be way more proactive if he is not following medical advice.

mozar

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #29 on: August 18, 2014, 06:36:57 PM »
I think that you and your parents should go to Therapy/CBT seperately or together. This will help all of you cope and learn how to communicate with your sibling in a helpful way. It sounds to me like there are pre-existing mental issues exacerbated by enabling parents (brought on by guilt perhaps). I recently read an article in the NYTimes about a college student who had dropped out and was binge drinking while living at home. They tried alcoholics anonymous but found it too severe in that you are supposed to abstain forever, and you are powerless etc. The parents decided to do CBT and they started doing better, starting treating the son differently and in turn the son started doing better.

I recommend Co-Dependent No more and Feeling Good for you and your parents.

Letj

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2014, 07:25:06 PM »
Late teens and early 20s is often the typical age for mental breakdown.  Try your best to support him in whatever way you can and constantly invite to go out with you even though he refuses; don't give up on inviting him to go out with you.  Try not to include others when you both go out, at least initially so he doesn't feel overwhelmed and out of place. Right now he just needs love and understanding. It's very difficult to convince someone that's obviously suffering from a mental illness that they need help. Try talking to an expert on how to break through to him.

Letj

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2014, 07:29:37 PM »
Your brother was a high achiever who burnt out/had a breakdown.  He has a safe space to live in for as long as your parents are prepared to give it to him.   Two points that occur to me are -

1) Your brother is an adult, and nothing you have said suggests to me that he needs to be forced to have treatment for a mental illness, or that any doctor would force such treatment on him.

2) I'm not sure what the point would be in your brother moving out of his parent's house and paying rent.  His parents seem prepared to support him for the time being.  The alternative is him moving out, spending his retirement fund and probably not taking proper care either of himself or of his finances: I can't see that being an improvement on where he is now, either for him or the rest of his family.

I have a relative who has been in a similar position to your brother.  He is now in his 70s and since his twenties has never worked or moved out of the family home.   I suppose his life has been limited by modern standards, but by the standards of not that long ago, his life would not have been thought so unusual.  Sometimes we do the best we can, and have to change our ideas of what is good to fit changed circumstances.  PM me if you want to talk more about that.

Good advice!  We forget that through out human history and in many societies around the world some children remain at home until their parents die and typically continue to live in the house (for example, spinsters did not really move out of the parents' home).  Some people for whatever reason just have trouble sustaining their own lives; could be the result of mental illness, spurned by a lover, jaded from the experience out there in the world, etc. Sometimes we just have to support our family and never give up on trying to help them.

Roots&Wings

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #32 on: August 19, 2014, 10:54:05 AM »
What treatment did you receive? I will definitely PM you, I appreciate you offering and have a lot of questions and really want to understand my brother's perspective of things.

Hi Credaholic, I sent a response to your PM, although the response seems to have vanished, so if it didn't go through for some reason, just let me know :)

AH013

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #33 on: August 19, 2014, 03:05:21 PM »
Find meaningless achievements for him.  Video games are great for this.  They get him engaged in doing something, instead of being a passive couch potato.  Hopefully he'll want to "win" at the game, which will re-spark the desire to win at life.  The side-risk is he becomes a video game addict and makes it harder to get him to restart life once he breaks free from true slothness.

It's a real tough spot for you to be in.  You want to re-kick start his life, and sometimes the best way to achieve this is some tough love like having the parents give him the boot.  But you have to acknowledge that a hard fall can as likely result in a reboot in his life as it can result in finding him hanging from a rope -- I doubt you'd want to live with causing the latter scenario.

All you can really do is try to engage him in being social, being active, doing anything really other than sitting idly vapid on a couch.  Don't preach what he should be doing (you should go work out, you should look for a job, etc), but invite him to whatever you're doing -- the worst thing he can say is no.

darkadams00

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #34 on: August 20, 2014, 05:41:14 PM »
27 years old, college educated--so I assume he worked in finance for about 5-6 years. Ivy League degree--so I would say he couldn't have been a total slacker between about 16-22 years old, maybe longer if he initially enjoyed his job.

Assuming that this drop-off is completely out of character for him, your only concern should be "why?" If you can't answer the why, then you can't decide on the what--what are reasonable goals for him, what are the best steps to take toward those goals, what should you even say to him about the situation. The possible "why's" are too numerous--helicopter parents pushed him too hard to achieve in school/job, he burned out on 60-hour work weeks, he burned out on sitting behind a computer staring at numbers that he found he didn't care about, his friend at work quit and became a full-time volunteer, he watched watched one too many apocalypse flicks and decided the future wasn't worth the effort...only someone who knows him well will be able to figure out all of this.

Regardless, be supportive, spend time just being a friend and doing what friends do. Don't spend one second in frustration feeling that your parents are letting your brother mooch off them if that's what you see it as. I had to kindly speak to my parents and my in-laws when I got married to let them know that I valued their opinion but might not always follow their lead. So I definitely wouldn't expect them to pick my advice over their perceived well-being for one of my siblings. Walk softly. Smile often. Laugh when you can. Leave the big stick and the soapbox in the closet at your house.

madame librarian

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #35 on: August 20, 2014, 06:03:51 PM »
tbh, I would just... stop focusing on this. I don't think it does anyone's problems any good to have their entire family fixated upon them. I have never, ever seen that be helpful. Your bro will get this worked out, lots of people go through stuff like this and end up okay. As long as you don't think he has suicidal ideation or anything like that, he probably just needs some space.

Sofa King

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #36 on: September 01, 2014, 01:51:42 PM »
Sounds like your brother is a manipulative lazy leach and is no different now than when he was 10years old. Your parents give him a free place to live and $$$$ every month because he doesnt have a job and your brother doesnt have a job because your parents give him a free place to live and $$$$ every month. Your brother need to get some dignity. Your parents need to stop enabling him. Adversity breed opportunity. He will find a job and a place to live if he HAD to. Like someone else here said they should give him a deadline and stick to it.

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #37 on: September 01, 2014, 02:30:05 PM »

kite

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #38 on: September 02, 2014, 06:00:50 AM »
Substance abuse?
I know it's hip these days to extol the virtues of pot and pretend it's harmless, but the relationship between pot and a depressive episode in bipolar is established.  Having seen first hand my own family members with brilliant potential reduced to people who can't manage their own ADL's is incredibly sad and frustrating.  And frequent drug use is the common denominator in all the late twenties couch surfers I've ever known.   What can you do?   Very little.
You can make the rules for your own house, but you can't do it for your parents' home. 

Pussyriot

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #39 on: September 02, 2014, 11:06:30 AM »
What your brother needs is not a kick in the ass but to GET HELP.  If he is mentally ill like I and others suspect, he will not be able to get through this alone.  Now he may not be mentally ill, but how can you know until he's diagnosed by a professional?  It's all too common for someone who's depressed to lack the mental fortitude to admit they need help.  You need to focus your efforts on getting your brother to see that he needs professional help.  The problem seems to be, though, that he subscribes to this homeopathic/naturalistic medicine quackery (yes, it really is bullshit) and therefore refuses to see his problems as treatable under scientifically tested western medicine.  Change this, and I think you can get somewhere with him.  But this would be no small task.  Dropping the floor from under him though has potentially disastrous consequences.   

 

going2ER

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #40 on: September 02, 2014, 01:35:36 PM »
If he says that he is encountering adrenal fatigue and if you can convince him to go to a doctor they can actually do testing on him measuring his cortisol levels and thus proving whether or not he has adreanal fatigue. My daughter has adreneal insufficiencey so I understand alot around this diagnosis.

Cassie

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #41 on: September 02, 2014, 02:01:06 PM »
It is incredibly hard to get disability if you are young, healthy & college educated. I worked in this field for years.  Also if he does not have 40 quarters (10 Years)  in he will not qualify for SSDI but will qualify for SSI which is for poor people with disabilities that pays very little (usually between $300-500/month.  This is also very difficult to get & he would need to have a very serious psychiatric diagnosis -not just depression.  This is really sad because if it is mental illness tough love will not work.  If it did the mentally ill that are homeless would not be in that position.   However, if it is just laziness then tough love would work.  The key is finding out which it is but often MI people are very resistive to treatment.  Although, it may not hurt for your parents to insist he seek treatment if he wants to continue to live with them & they can even make the appt for him & drive him there.  This is an extremely tough situation for your entire family. Good luck & keep us posted.

Credaholic

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #42 on: September 02, 2014, 11:39:07 PM »
My mom's most recent efforts are to try to get him to get up in the morning, live normal hours and eat properly. Currently he gets up around noon or 1 and goes to bed around 3am and seems to live off roast beef and bananas besides the dinner my parents feed him. She is also contemplating paying for an apartment for 6 months to get him back out there and make the rest of his life his responsibility, along with the ticking clock of 6 months to hopefully get him to figure out how he's going to live his life going forward.

I brought up schizoaffective disorder which she does not think he has. However, she's trying to find someone experienced in meditation to try to reach him because of what he perceived as negative experiences with meditation. The examples were that he was meditating, felt the top of his skull come off and felt something like rain coming down which he says felt like love flowing into him. However, after that feeling was gone he had an opposite crash into negative feelings. He is now scared to meditate because he feels this episode opened a door to all of his problems. My mom assumes the meditation was happening because he was already having anxiety issues etc. Chicken or egg argument, and is it just me or does this sound crazy?! And that wasn't even the worst. He then later had a lucid dream where he was being attacked by a "merchant of evil" and he had to fight them off mentally. My mom says she knows this all sounds crazy, but she also believes meditation can be very powerful and she thinks he went very deep very quickly. I don't know much about meditation, please chime in if you do, but it seems like something people practice and work on for very extended periods, not something that someone does instantly achieving a nirvana state only to then crash and feel attacked by evil.

And no, there is no substance abuse. I wish there were, it would be a much saner explanation for everything I just wrote in the previous paragraph. He's never even experimented with drugs besides pot once or twice in college, and will occasionally drink a beer or maybe two at quiz nights, but never even gets intoxicated.

I agree that I personally need to not let this affect me too much, and I have plenty on my plate to keep myself busy, but I'm still an ear for my parents and want things to be better for everyone. I also agree that tough love might not be the answer, but that the only possibility of a fix is to get him mental help - meaning he has up accept mental help and a mental diagnosis. I just have no clue how to do that, and really the only thing not tried and tested yet is tough love. Everyone seems to know someone like this, a failure to launch type story of someone still living with their parents at 50. The difference is that they all have accepted mental diagnosis and help, and my brother simply won't.

Dicey

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #43 on: September 03, 2014, 12:56:19 AM »
Sounds like your brother is a manipulative lazy leach and is no different now than when he was 10years old. Your parents give him a free place to live and $$$$ every month because he doesnt have a job and your brother doesnt have a job because your parents give him a free place to live and $$$$ every month. Your brother need to get some dignity. Your parents need to stop enabling him. Adversity breed opportunity. He will find a job and a place to live if he HAD to. Like someone else here said they should give him a deadline and stick to it.

Sofa King, this comment makes me really, really sad. Generally, unkind words such as yours are best left unsaid. The OP asked for suggestions from people with similar experience, not a barrage of badly punctuated, mean-spirited bullshit.

former player

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #44 on: September 03, 2014, 01:28:44 AM »
OP: has your brother tried Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR?).  It seems to work, although no-one is quite sure how, so although it is a recommended psychiatric treatment there might be enough of an "alternative" element to attract your brother.  It's supposed to be good for getting people over trauma/PTSD/disturbing thoughts.

water1974

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #45 on: September 03, 2014, 01:58:27 AM »
However, she's trying to find someone experienced in meditation to try to reach him because of what he perceived as negative experiences with meditation. The examples were that he was meditating, felt the top of his skull come off and felt something like rain coming down which he says felt like love flowing into him. However, after that feeling was gone he had an opposite crash into negative feelings. He is now scared to meditate because he feels this episode opened a door to all of his problems. My mom assumes the meditation was happening because he was already having anxiety issues etc. Chicken or egg argument, and is it just me or does this sound crazy?! And that wasn't even the worst. He then later had a lucid dream where he was being attacked by a "merchant of evil" and he had to fight them off mentally. My mom says she knows this all sounds crazy, but she also believes meditation can be very powerful and she thinks he went very deep very quickly.

Whoah. When people are dealing with depression there are no merchants of evil and their skulls don't come off in the middle of meditation sessions. I don't have experience working with people who have become schizophrenic, but perhaps it is time for you and your parents to talk with mental health professionals about the best way to take care of your brother. To be frank, I find the merchant of evil episode to be incredibly disturbing.

MichaelR

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #46 on: September 03, 2014, 12:29:24 PM »
Second this -- stay away from meditation if this sort of thing is happening.
I also wonder about the anger when depression and the like are discussed. Maybe he is afraid that is the case?

Sounds like he needs psychiatric assessment at the very least. If he refuses there is not much you can do.

Cassie

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #47 on: September 03, 2014, 01:27:22 PM »
This is starting to sound like he has Schizophrenia.  YOur parents need to talk to a MH professional about the best way to help him agree to seek treatment. This is  a lot more then depression & not meditation.

Credaholic

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #48 on: September 04, 2014, 10:45:42 AM »
Thanks for the link to NAMI. At the very least I'll call their support hotline and see where we should go regarding finding a professional who can give an opinion on how serious this might be and how to get him help if he needs it. I told my mom yesterday that although she is a doctor, I think she's too close to the situation to make a call on this and she agreed. She's also talking about using the "you move out or..." ultimatum to try to get him into a one month program. There's a one week out patient program offered at their local hospital, but she doesn't feel it's enough time to get him to finally open up to the "quackery" of real medicine.

For schizophrenia or schizoaffective, can people who know tell me whether his general demeanor fits? Obviously there's the things described above. Besides that, I thought his assertion that he is dying (claims his kidneys aren't working, liver and adrenals failing, etc.) despite the fact that all tests have come back normal might qualify as delusion. His general routine is to get up late and go to bed late. In between he generally just watches TV because he claims activity is too much exertion. He doesn't eat healthily in my opinion, but claims he does. He is mainly antisocial and quiet, but if there's no risk of the topic being about his current situation, he will get very involved in conversations and light up with energy - subjects like history, politics, etc. and speaks with intelligence. As I said, he attends quiz nights maybe once a week. He will shower beforehand and get presentable. Besides that, he rarely showers, shaves, does laundry, or gets his haircut. He frequently smells as a result and looks disheveled. It's been reported back by quiz night members that he made a girl on his team cry (I presume he ridiculed a wrong answer.) He was a very mild tempered person before, but now is generally very caustic when he does interact. My grandmother who is visiting right now for the birth of my daughter reports that he often seems to "go somewhere else" for instance will do the drying up while she washes dishes, but ends up slowly wiping one item for a long time while frowning out the window. I also see him holding his head and closing his eyes a lot during family things. I can't tell if this is for our benefit or not, since if the TV is on he doesn't seem to do this.

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Re: Depressed, jobless & living with parents
« Reply #49 on: September 04, 2014, 10:53:51 AM »
There are doctors on this forum, but I'm not sure any are psychiatrists, and in any case I don't think any respectable medical doctor would diagnose over the internet, particularly something as difficult and potentially life-altering as a diagnosis of schizophrenia.