Author Topic: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker  (Read 34586 times)

KBecks

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #250 on: December 04, 2019, 02:34:46 AM »
Have I misread, or did someone at the company approve the co-worker's food for the meeting?  Someone must have endorsed it.

Linea_Norway

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #251 on: December 04, 2019, 03:01:04 AM »
Have I misread, or did someone at the company approve the co-worker's food for the meeting?  Someone must have endorsed it.

From what I remember, Safety Sandy has her own budget for buying chemical supplies (or something like that), which is part of her actual job. She used that for buying bagels for the meeting.

For those who suggest that Frugal Nacho should be buying pizza or bagels for his coworkers, from his own money, I wouldn't want to do that either. That is not a frugal thing to do. But maybe if FN ever wants to have a meeting, he could ask his boss to approve sponsoring bagels.

iris lily

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #252 on: December 04, 2019, 06:59:38 AM »
Nanobots are real guys: https://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=109379

Is that site even real? I read through that thread, and jumped up a level and looked at other threads.  I can't tell if it's full on crazy people or a parody of crazy people.


Same here, I just looked it over for a good 20 minutes and cannot tell if this is real or a troll website.
Of course it’s satire, it’s over the top and it doesn’t ring true to real crank posts. Also the title “Landover Baptist church”  is a reference to
Westboro Baptist Church, my guess.

Here4theGB

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #253 on: December 04, 2019, 08:00:55 AM »
Your management sounds like a complete failure.  I manage a large manufacturing facility that builds heavy industrial equipment.  It is very dangerous work for our production staff and we have someone carted off in an ambulance about every 45-60 days with a serious injury.  The most recent incident, a gentleman lost his hand, forever.  If some n00b came in (no matter what credentials and what title) and started trying to mess with safety procedures w/o going through the proper channels of management, they would've been walked off the property at the very first instance.  There is no go-getting when it comes to changing or creating safety processes, only go-get another job please.

BlueHouse

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #254 on: December 04, 2019, 11:10:10 AM »
Again being an idiot or not vaccinating or annoying you is not a fireable offense. If you list everything that you mentioned in this thread, there is nothing that warrants firing someone. Unnecessary work sure, idiotic comments sure, but what has she done that actually requires her to be fired other than you wanting it. And just reading all your comments, the only reason i can see (as an outsider reading your side only) you wanting her fired is she is everything you are not (that includes being an idiot but also well-liked and confident). It must be exhausting to be you, always looking for faults. There is a reason she is well-liked and you are not (don’t mean they don’t like you, i mean you seem to be just tolerable at best).
I have definitely worked with people like her, i still do. But other than occasionally being annoyed, i would never try to get them fired for trying or annoying me. Employers like enthusiastic people (even if they are idiots), not know-it-alls who complain about coworkers to get them fired. You are NOT a team player.

I disagree with the [bolded] portion of this comment. 
A worker is supposed to do their job, show initiative, but not exceed their authority.  #SafetySandy is clearly exceeding her authority and doing so could actually harm the company or its employees.  This needs to be stopped and if management is too uncomfortable to have a discussion about what her responsibilities include and exclude, then they need to be rid of her as she poses a problem.  It is clear that management does not want to confront and correct. 

I haven't read anything about FN wanting to get her fired.  FN just want SS to be out of his/her hair. 

BECABECA

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #255 on: December 04, 2019, 11:55:43 AM »
Your management sounds like a complete failure.  I manage a large manufacturing facility that builds heavy industrial equipment.  It is very dangerous work for our production staff and we have someone carted off in an ambulance about every 45-60 days with a serious injury.  The most recent incident, a gentleman lost his hand, forever.  If some n00b came in (no matter what credentials and what title) and started trying to mess with safety procedures w/o going through the proper channels of management, they would've been walked off the property at the very first instance.  There is no go-getting when it comes to changing or creating safety processes, only go-get another job please.

This x100. If your management has allowed Safety Sandy to be putting the company at risk for as long as she has, especially after being alerted to it, they have shown you that you can’t trust their abilities as managers. If they can’t manage something as cut and dry as this, how do you think they’ll manage more difficult decisions? I wouldn’t trust my long term career to a dysfunctional company like this, and would be looking for another job at a company with managers whose abilities I believe in.

coffeefueled

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #256 on: December 04, 2019, 01:34:50 PM »
I don't understand the people who seem to be supporting the data entry clerk and saying this is no big deal or thinking that just because FN is telling us his unvarnished thoughts about the ability of some of his coworkers to think critically for themselves then that must mean he doesn't treat them respectfully when he interacts with them. I think letting the data entry clerk take notes on a safety consultant meeting is inviting trouble and could further a bad precedent of her involvement in areas she shouldn't touch. I think it would be a big deal and unacceptable if a data entry clerk started incorrectly doing parts of anyone's job. The fact that in FN's industry it involves real safety issues with how chemicals are used and disposed of, or telling anyone in a lab how they should do their job or use safety equipment, makes it even crazier. If you put feelings aside and look at her actions, they are not acceptable.

Sure, it would be great if FN's relationship with the general populace in his company was better, but it doesn't excuse her behavior at all. As an INTJ I totally understand what it's like to not win any popularity contests for being factual and blunt or simply wanting to do your job well without having to engage in a popularity contest at all. Communicating in ways that work for everyone is something to work on over time. (I think @Laura33 's comments on that theme were great suggestions)

frugalnacho

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #257 on: December 04, 2019, 02:30:22 PM »
You seem sort of passive-aggressive, posting all your gripes online instead of working directly with her and your team. What have you done directly to address the issues and what is your plan to resolve this?

I tried talking to her.  She is unreasonable.  It's very difficult to communicate with her and not have the conversation controlled and steered by her.  That's why I created the thread.  Initially I thought I was failing at effectively communicating with her, but the more I learn the more I realize she is utterly incompetent and completely unreasonable.  It's very reminiscent of arguing with an anti-vax individual - there is no winning, there is no steering the argument back onto the rails of logic and reason.  Even if I find documentation showing irrefutably that she is wrong, then I just wasted a bunch of time collecting that as she is off onto another topic.  It's impossible to keep up and refute everything she says.  At this point I'm no longer soliciting advice on how to deal with her.

I work at a chemical company as a chemist, so perhaps I can relate.

Typically, chemical companies take safety and environmental/etc... very seriously.  They have to, because they are heavily regulated to do so.  Also, the hazards in such jobs are significantly higher than say for a law firm, or a software engineer (which basically have not job related hazards aside maybe from the commute to work).  The cultures in the companies I have worked in is very serious about this.  If you have a safety incident and someone is injured, it is common for the perpetrator to be fired even if it was an innocent mistake.  We have monthly safety meetings, to review how to be more safe.  We have 'safety moments' at most meetings, to reflect upon how we might be safer.  There is a constant barrage of reminders from leaders/executives about how safety is the top priority and we must pursue it above all else.  Of course, a lot of it is BS... but no one can deny that it is at least touted as some sort of high priority.

At my current and previous companies, if someone without credentials for it and not hired for that role, came in and started messing around with the pre-defined routines for safety/environmental/etc... it would cause problems.  It would get noticed.  They would probably be told to stop and not interfere with our current procedures.  If they persisted, I would not be surprised if they were fired.  I don't know the legality of how it all goes down... I suspect the company first has to generate a paper trail (documentation of her fuck ups) before firing her.

The only angle I would take in your situation is to indicate to management that she is jeopardizing the safety and/or environmental compliance of the company and its employees.  It seems you have done this already, so you are probably on the right track.  As others have indicated, keep a paper trail.

That has been my experience working as a contractor for large chemical companies (Dow, BASF) as well.  Also the case at most really big companies I've worked at (GM, Ford, US Steel, AK Steel, etc). 

Totally not the case at this plant.  This plant is much closer to a small 2 man operation.  A lot of safety and environmental policies are reactive rather than proactive.  ie a regulator comes in and says "whoa, you guys aren't following the regulations.  you need to do A, B, and C".  And then they figure out how to do A, B, and C, but don't go any further.  It's not a good safety culture.

A lot of it is just common sense though.  We use a ton of razor blades, but there is apparently no company policy on how to dispose of them other than "throw them in the garbage".  Why don't you guys just use some old coffee cans or something so you aren't throwing loose razor blades into the garbage that is being handled by some employees? How is that not obvious?  Also, people apparently don't even follow the unwritten policy of throwing them in the trash because I see them littered around on the floor.  You don't even have to be an OSHA expert to know that you shouldn't just toss razor blades on the fucking ground and walk on them. 

I'm glad you are bringing in an official expert to codify things, but I think you should bring in sandy to take notes. It might make extra work for you to correct them but it will show you are team player. I've never seen it work in the long run to avoid difficult people.
Quote
I think you are misconstruing my confidence level too.  It's not that I lack confidence, it's that I lack confidence in areas I shouldn't be confident in.  I don't work in the paint booth, and I am unfamiliar with a lot of the chemicals they use.  When asked how to categorize and dispose of 30 different items...I don't know! I don't know that off the top of my head, I would have to check the hazardous waste regulations, check the chemical components, and make a determination of how to dispose of each item properly.  Then document that, and make it an official company policy for how we do it going forward, which apparently no one has ever done.  But WTF, how have you been disposing of everything for the last 20 years if you guys don't know?! In contrast safety sandy has the utmost confidence to start delegating that everything gets put into a bio waste bag, even though she's completely wrong!
This sounds like a task you should do.

I don't want sandy to have anything to do with safety or any part of my job.  I get what you guys are saying about including her and being a team player, but she's a fucking cancer and I don't want her involved in any capacity with anything.  I do not want her to even have a part in meeting with the consultants beyond interviewing her as we would all the other employees.  But as far as sitting in a meeting with the consultants, developing and implementing new policies, and managing those policies moving forward, I want to cut her out as much as possible.  I don't care if she's enthusiastic and gung-ho about safety, she's fucking dangerous and I'm sick of dealing with her.

That is a task I am working on along with 100 other tasks.  That's the part she doesn't understand, you can't just say "poof" this is how we do things without knowing what you're talking about.  You can boil many of these items down to a single sentence, but the devil is always in the details.  In order to know how to dispose of all that stuff you first have to understand hazardous waste regulations, and what qualifies and what doesn't qualify.  The latex based paint is non hazardous, but you can't dispose of liquid paint, it needs to be dried.  Solvents are considered hazardous, but the rags you use that are soaked in that solvent are considered non-hazardous, but only if you follow all the guidelines from the state such as keeping them in a closed container, not having free standing liquid, etc.  Some of the other stuff is hazardous and needs to be segregated out, but they can't just be mixed together.  She also seems to be under the impression that you simply have regular waste, and "hazardous waste", and you can just put hazardous waste into a yellow bag and poof off it goes to a magic hazardous waste landfill.  That's not how hazardous waste works at all.  We need to categorize exactly what makes it hazard waste either based on characteristics of the substance (is it corrosive? is it flammable?) or specific components of the substance (does it contain chrome above the regulatory limit?).  Then the hazardous waste needs to be disposed of properly by a disposal company, and they need to know exactly what's in it in order to properly treat/destroy it.  And they need to track it via manifests because the generator of that waste is responsible for it forever, so you need all those paper trails saying what it is, who took it, where it went, and how it was ultimately disposed of. 

Have I misread, or did someone at the company approve the co-worker's food for the meeting?  Someone must have endorsed it.

Yes apparently the first meeting was approved.  Not by me, so she went to someone else to get approval.  I don't know how she pitched it, or any of the details since I wasn't a part of it.

Apparently subsequent meetings were not approved and she got chewed out by the finance department and had to pay for the bagels and donuts herself for that meeting.   

I don't understand the people who seem to be supporting the data entry clerk and saying this is no big deal or thinking that just because FN is telling us his unvarnished thoughts about the ability of some of his coworkers to think critically for themselves then that must mean he doesn't treat them respectfully when he interacts with them. I think letting the data entry clerk take notes on a safety consultant meeting is inviting trouble and could further a bad precedent of her involvement in areas she shouldn't touch. I think it would be a big deal and unacceptable if a data entry clerk started incorrectly doing parts of anyone's job. The fact that in FN's industry it involves real safety issues with how chemicals are used and disposed of, or telling anyone in a lab how they should do their job or use safety equipment, makes it even crazier. If you put feelings aside and look at her actions, they are not acceptable.

Sure, it would be great if FN's relationship with the general populace in his company was better, but it doesn't excuse her behavior at all. As an INTJ I totally understand what it's like to not win any popularity contests for being factual and blunt or simply wanting to do your job well without having to engage in a popularity contest at all. Communicating in ways that work for everyone is something to work on over time. (I think @Laura33 's comments on that theme were great suggestions)

I think some people are inferring that I am unpopular or not well liked based on me saying she seems to be popular and well liked. I don't think that is true at all.  I get along fine with everyone.  My point was if there was a big work party safety sandy would be that extroverted person walking around doing finger guns at people and chatting everyone up and making jokes, and I ...well I wouldn't be that person.  Not that I wouldn't socialize with anyone, I just wouldn't be nearly as exuberant as her. 

SunnyDays

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #258 on: December 04, 2019, 04:48:52 PM »
So, as I said before and as others have said, why don't you look for another job?  I agree that management seems to be severely lacking motivation, ability or both.  What would happen if there was a serious incident where someone was really injured or worse?  Whose ultimate responsibility would that be?  If yours, then get out, because having that fall on you without you having had the ultimate say in safety matters is totally unfair and unreasonable.  Don't put yourself in that position or the least of your problems will be looking like a job-hopper.

Villanelle

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #259 on: December 04, 2019, 05:01:12 PM »
I don't understand the people who seem to be supporting the data entry clerk and saying this is no big deal or thinking that just because FN is telling us his unvarnished thoughts about the ability of some of his coworkers to think critically for themselves then that must mean he doesn't treat them respectfully when he interacts with them. I think letting the data entry clerk take notes on a safety consultant meeting is inviting trouble and could further a bad precedent of her involvement in areas she shouldn't touch. I think it would be a big deal and unacceptable if a data entry clerk started incorrectly doing parts of anyone's job. The fact that in FN's industry it involves real safety issues with how chemicals are used and disposed of, or telling anyone in a lab how they should do their job or use safety equipment, makes it even crazier. If you put feelings aside and look at her actions, they are not acceptable.

Sure, it would be great if FN's relationship with the general populace in his company was better, but it doesn't excuse her behavior at all. As an INTJ I totally understand what it's like to not win any popularity contests for being factual and blunt or simply wanting to do your job well without having to engage in a popularity contest at all. Communicating in ways that work for everyone is something to work on over time. (I think @Laura33 's comments on that theme were great suggestions)

Of course it doesn't excuse her behavior.  I was under the impression that the goal was resolving the situation, not assigning blame.  SS owns the blame.

As for why I think maybe the coworkers don't respect FN, that seems the most likely explanation for why they would listen to someone who is clearly operating outside her lane, rather than the person who owns the lane.

What explanation do you (or FN) have for why someone would listen to safety info from a person whose job wasn't safety, when there's someone whose job is exactly that?  Seem to me like respecting or liking her more is the most likely explanation.

frugalnacho

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #260 on: December 05, 2019, 08:09:23 AM »
So, as I said before and as others have said, why don't you look for another job?  I agree that management seems to be severely lacking motivation, ability or both.  What would happen if there was a serious incident where someone was really injured or worse?  Whose ultimate responsibility would that be?  If yours, then get out, because having that fall on you without you having had the ultimate say in safety matters is totally unfair and unreasonable.  Don't put yourself in that position or the least of your problems will be looking like a job-hopper.

I don't think I will be held liable in the event of an injury unless I am the one responsible for it.  Merely being in this position won't make me responsible unless it can be demonstrated that I am being negligent in my duties.  I think there is sufficient evidence to demonstrate that I am not being negligent and am actively improving many areas including safety.  I mean I can't be held liable for company policies that predate my birth, especially when I have documentation that some specific thing is not safe and I want to improve it.  I can't unilaterally make all the changes I see fit though, and I can't force other people to be safe if they don't want to be.

As for looking for another job...I just started this job in June after being laid off.  I had 12 years of environmental consulting experience, and got headhunted into a newer position as an environmental specialist about a year ago.   Basically did the environmental for the whole plant, and we had a separate full time safety specialist.  After that plant got shut down and I got laid off I found this job at a smaller plant in a different field, and got the environmental, health, and safety manager position.  I still have a lot to learn, so I am using this place to gain as much experience as I can.  Even if it's stressful I would like to work here and get that experience so I can move into a similar role and actually have some experience.  The company is a bit of a mess, but I am being paid decently, and I am gaining a lot of experience that I didn't get in my first 13 years of employment.  I am going to stick it out and improve the company as much as I can, hopefully making it a safer and more environmentally friendly plant in the process.  If it works long term and I can retire from here in 5 years then that's great.  If it doesn't work long term, I'd still like to gain as much experience as I can in the meantime so I can be more effective in my next role, which I imagine will be something similar to this one.  So as stressful as I appear in this thread, I am going to hold off on looking for another job for a bit longer.

I don't understand the people who seem to be supporting the data entry clerk and saying this is no big deal or thinking that just because FN is telling us his unvarnished thoughts about the ability of some of his coworkers to think critically for themselves then that must mean he doesn't treat them respectfully when he interacts with them. I think letting the data entry clerk take notes on a safety consultant meeting is inviting trouble and could further a bad precedent of her involvement in areas she shouldn't touch. I think it would be a big deal and unacceptable if a data entry clerk started incorrectly doing parts of anyone's job. The fact that in FN's industry it involves real safety issues with how chemicals are used and disposed of, or telling anyone in a lab how they should do their job or use safety equipment, makes it even crazier. If you put feelings aside and look at her actions, they are not acceptable.

Sure, it would be great if FN's relationship with the general populace in his company was better, but it doesn't excuse her behavior at all. As an INTJ I totally understand what it's like to not win any popularity contests for being factual and blunt or simply wanting to do your job well without having to engage in a popularity contest at all. Communicating in ways that work for everyone is something to work on over time. (I think @Laura33 's comments on that theme were great suggestions)

Of course it doesn't excuse her behavior.  I was under the impression that the goal was resolving the situation, not assigning blame.  SS owns the blame.

As for why I think maybe the coworkers don't respect FN, that seems the most likely explanation for why they would listen to someone who is clearly operating outside her lane, rather than the person who owns the lane.

What explanation do you (or FN) have for why someone would listen to safety info from a person whose job wasn't safety, when there's someone whose job is exactly that?  Seem to me like respecting or liking her more is the most likely explanation.

That's the crux of this whole thread.  I don't get it.  It makes no sense to me.  She's an idiot, and clearly doesn't understand all the things she is talking about, but there is something about her personality that makes people listen to and believe her. 


Villanelle

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #261 on: December 05, 2019, 09:47:23 AM »
So, as I said before and as others have said, why don't you look for another job?  I agree that management seems to be severely lacking motivation, ability or both.  What would happen if there was a serious incident where someone was really injured or worse?  Whose ultimate responsibility would that be?  If yours, then get out, because having that fall on you without you having had the ultimate say in safety matters is totally unfair and unreasonable.  Don't put yourself in that position or the least of your problems will be looking like a job-hopper.

I don't think I will be held liable in the event of an injury unless I am the one responsible for it.  Merely being in this position won't make me responsible unless it can be demonstrated that I am being negligent in my duties.  I think there is sufficient evidence to demonstrate that I am not being negligent and am actively improving many areas including safety.  I mean I can't be held liable for company policies that predate my birth, especially when I have documentation that some specific thing is not safe and I want to improve it.  I can't unilaterally make all the changes I see fit though, and I can't force other people to be safe if they don't want to be.

As for looking for another job...I just started this job in June after being laid off.  I had 12 years of environmental consulting experience, and got headhunted into a newer position as an environmental specialist about a year ago.   Basically did the environmental for the whole plant, and we had a separate full time safety specialist.  After that plant got shut down and I got laid off I found this job at a smaller plant in a different field, and got the environmental, health, and safety manager position.  I still have a lot to learn, so I am using this place to gain as much experience as I can.  Even if it's stressful I would like to work here and get that experience so I can move into a similar role and actually have some experience.  The company is a bit of a mess, but I am being paid decently, and I am gaining a lot of experience that I didn't get in my first 13 years of employment.  I am going to stick it out and improve the company as much as I can, hopefully making it a safer and more environmentally friendly plant in the process.  If it works long term and I can retire from here in 5 years then that's great.  If it doesn't work long term, I'd still like to gain as much experience as I can in the meantime so I can be more effective in my next role, which I imagine will be something similar to this one.  So as stressful as I appear in this thread, I am going to hold off on looking for another job for a bit longer.

I don't understand the people who seem to be supporting the data entry clerk and saying this is no big deal or thinking that just because FN is telling us his unvarnished thoughts about the ability of some of his coworkers to think critically for themselves then that must mean he doesn't treat them respectfully when he interacts with them. I think letting the data entry clerk take notes on a safety consultant meeting is inviting trouble and could further a bad precedent of her involvement in areas she shouldn't touch. I think it would be a big deal and unacceptable if a data entry clerk started incorrectly doing parts of anyone's job. The fact that in FN's industry it involves real safety issues with how chemicals are used and disposed of, or telling anyone in a lab how they should do their job or use safety equipment, makes it even crazier. If you put feelings aside and look at her actions, they are not acceptable.

Sure, it would be great if FN's relationship with the general populace in his company was better, but it doesn't excuse her behavior at all. As an INTJ I totally understand what it's like to not win any popularity contests for being factual and blunt or simply wanting to do your job well without having to engage in a popularity contest at all. Communicating in ways that work for everyone is something to work on over time. (I think @Laura33 's comments on that theme were great suggestions)

Of course it doesn't excuse her behavior.  I was under the impression that the goal was resolving the situation, not assigning blame.  SS owns the blame.

As for why I think maybe the coworkers don't respect FN, that seems the most likely explanation for why they would listen to someone who is clearly operating outside her lane, rather than the person who owns the lane.

What explanation do you (or FN) have for why someone would listen to safety info from a person whose job wasn't safety, when there's someone whose job is exactly that?  Seem to me like respecting or liking her more is the most likely explanation.

That's the crux of this whole thread.  I don't get it.  It makes no sense to me.  She's an idiot, and clearly doesn't understand all the things she is talking about, but there is something about her personality that makes people listen to and believe her.

And I say this as gently as possible--maybe there is a corresponding something about your personality at work that makes people not listen to or believe you.

That's what I've been trying to get at.  If you shore up the relationships with other people, then her nonsense will stop to matter because it will be ignored.  People will respect your authority and defer to your expertise.  If she chimes in, they will not listen because she is not the person to listen to with regard to safety. 

People are listening to an idiot outside her lane instead of you for matters directly concerning the lane you own.   It's not a pleasant reality, but that likely means that you have some relationships to work on or other changes to make. 

merula

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #262 on: December 05, 2019, 09:57:10 AM »
What explanation do you (or FN) have for why someone would listen to safety info from a person whose job wasn't safety, when there's someone whose job is exactly that?  Seem to me like respecting or liking her more is the most likely explanation.

That's the crux of this whole thread.  I don't get it.  It makes no sense to me.  She's an idiot, and clearly doesn't understand all the things she is talking about, but there is something about her personality that makes people listen to and believe her. 

My hypothesis is that it's the combination of three parts:
  • Charisma. Based on what you've related, she's maxed out on CHA to the exclusion of all else, especially INT. She's persuasive, she's likable, and the working world, by and large, rewards that kind of personality.
  • Appeal to the masses. She's telling 'the people' that what they 'know' to be true is in fact true, and here's the proof. The Boss Man is skimping on worker safety to line his own pockets. Boss Man and his henchman FN don't care about you, don't care if you get hurt, they just care about making money and doing the bare minimum to not get fined. (FN, you've acknowledged yourself that this company is reactive rather than proactive with safely.) So, if FN tells you something's not necessary, but SafetySandy says it is, well, believing her fits better with their existing knowledge and is more easily believable.
  • Confidence. SafetySandy is 100% convinced that nanobots in vaccines cause cancer or whatever, and she speaks that way. That's convincing to the uninformed, although true experts rarely speak that way. They're hearing her say "The sky is purple!" and you say "The sky is typically blue but in certain weather circumstances may appear purple, red or orange.", and they hear "SafetySandy knows what she's talking about!", because they can't see the sky, so hers sounds better.

I actually think the atypical piece about this combination of traits is that she's a woman. These type of people are all over the place (see, Oval Office), but they're usually men, because women's confidence and charisma is typically interpreted differently from men's, and the "I'm one of you" usually required for mass appeal generally doesn't work for women appealing to men. But she's made it work. I'm actually kinda impressed by that, not gonna lie.

How do you counter this? Well, if you come up with a foolproof solution, call the DNC. Until then, maybe try to increase your efforts around personal safety as a way to get buy-in to develop a safety-conscious culture? People are most likely to use PPE and guarding when they see how it benefits them as an individual, and most likely to disregard PPE or disable guarding when it seems like an unimportant extra step.

What if you set up "official" razor blade canisters, asking the workers how many are necessary and where they should be located? Extra points if you can get a magnetized picker-upper to make it safer to pick up a dropped blade, and mega points if you can finagle that issue into a safety boots allowance for certain roles.

DadJokes

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #263 on: December 05, 2019, 10:06:19 AM »
What explanation do you (or FN) have for why someone would listen to safety info from a person whose job wasn't safety, when there's someone whose job is exactly that?  Seem to me like respecting or liking her more is the most likely explanation.

That's the crux of this whole thread.  I don't get it.  It makes no sense to me.  She's an idiot, and clearly doesn't understand all the things she is talking about, but there is something about her personality that makes people listen to and believe her.

I'm sorry in advance for using this as an example, but...

I'm sure a lot of people feel the same way about certain politicians. We think, "How can this or that person win their primary or get elected?"

I'm pretty pessimistic, so I just chalk it up to the belief that most people are idiots. I'll steal a George Carlin quote from another thread: “Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.” Maybe that's why people are listening to Safety Sandy. I'd like to think that people in a professional environment aren't idiots, but that's the only explanation I have at the moment. That doesn't do much to help you though, so hopefully it's a different reason.

frugalnacho

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #264 on: December 05, 2019, 10:27:49 AM »
And I say this as gently as possible--maybe there is a corresponding something about your personality at work that makes people not listen to or believe you.

That's what I've been trying to get at.  If you shore up the relationships with other people, then her nonsense will stop to matter because it will be ignored.  People will respect your authority and defer to your expertise.  If she chimes in, they will not listen because she is not the person to listen to with regard to safety. 

People are listening to an idiot outside her lane instead of you for matters directly concerning the lane you own.   It's not a pleasant reality, but that likely means that you have some relationships to work on or other changes to make.

Yes and we will eventually get to that point.  Some people have realized she's a dolt, but some other people are slower to come to that realization.  I'm definitely noticing a correlation that the dumber employees are slower to realize.  We have a lot of dumb employees. 

I think one of the things about my personality that makes me less believable than her is that I'm unwilling to to lie and fake my through it.  If you come to me with a complex situation that I'm unfamiliar with I am not willing to just bullshit you and say I instantly have the answer.  But that's what people want though, an instant expert answer, which sandy is more than willing to give immediately regardless of how well she understands the subject.

I did just hear her talking with a newly hired lab tech.  The lab manager was in a meeting, and lab tech was asking Sandy about how to do a specific method he hasn't been taught yet.  Sandy said she's not allowed to go over it with him as she has been instructed that she's no longer allowed to do lab tech work and has to leave that to the lab techs.  I'm not sure what incident prompted that, or who laid that rule down on her, but it's good to hear. 

frugalnacho

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #265 on: December 05, 2019, 10:36:58 AM »
What explanation do you (or FN) have for why someone would listen to safety info from a person whose job wasn't safety, when there's someone whose job is exactly that?  Seem to me like respecting or liking her more is the most likely explanation.

That's the crux of this whole thread.  I don't get it.  It makes no sense to me.  She's an idiot, and clearly doesn't understand all the things she is talking about, but there is something about her personality that makes people listen to and believe her.

I'm sorry in advance for using this as an example, but...

I'm sure a lot of people feel the same way about certain politicians. We think, "How can this or that person win their primary or get elected?"

I'm pretty pessimistic, so I just chalk it up to the belief that most people are idiots. I'll steal a George Carlin quote from another thread: “Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.” Maybe that's why people are listening to Safety Sandy. I'd like to think that people in a professional environment aren't idiots, but that's the only explanation I have at the moment. That doesn't do much to help you though, so hopefully it's a different reason.

People in professional environments are often idiots.  Not everyone employed at this company can be a high level intelligent person.  In fact that would be completely unstable for the business and we would probably go bankrupt to our competition.  You're not hiring an engineer to scrub shit off the toilets, or clean the rugs.  You aren't hiring an engineer to do some of the low level processes either.  You need some people to understand the different processes, and to have expertise and knowledge in that area, but you also need people that are essentially an extra set of hands that take instructions from those people that do know what they are doing, and also to do tedious and repetitive tasks.  Those people get hired in at $10-15/hr.  If they were much smarter and more valuable they would probably have moved on to another job.  We have a good mix; some smart people, a lot of average people, and a lot of idiots.  The amount that people listen to sandy seems to be inversely proportional to how smart they are.   

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #266 on: December 05, 2019, 10:46:06 AM »
Yes, exactly, IQ does come into it, and the desire not to have to think too deeply about an issue with some complexity when someone can just tell you a simple answer.  Which of course is related to intelligence.  She would make a perfect cult leader.

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #267 on: December 05, 2019, 11:30:07 AM »
And I say this as gently as possible--maybe there is a corresponding something about your personality at work that makes people not listen to or believe you.

That's what I've been trying to get at.  If you shore up the relationships with other people, then her nonsense will stop to matter because it will be ignored.  People will respect your authority and defer to your expertise.  If she chimes in, they will not listen because she is not the person to listen to with regard to safety. 

People are listening to an idiot outside her lane instead of you for matters directly concerning the lane you own.   It's not a pleasant reality, but that likely means that you have some relationships to work on or other changes to make.

Yes and we will eventually get to that point.  Some people have realized she's a dolt, but some other people are slower to come to that realization.  I'm definitely noticing a correlation that the dumber employees are slower to realize.  We have a lot of dumb employees. 

I think one of the things about my personality that makes me less believable than her is that I'm unwilling to to lie and fake my through it.  If you come to me with a complex situation that I'm unfamiliar with I am not willing to just bullshit you and say I instantly have the answer.  But that's what people want though, an instant expert answer, which sandy is more than willing to give immediately regardless of how well she understands the subject.

I did just hear her talking with a newly hired lab tech.  The lab manager was in a meeting, and lab tech was asking Sandy about how to do a specific method he hasn't been taught yet.  Sandy said she's not allowed to go over it with him as she has been instructed that she's no longer allowed to do lab tech work and has to leave that to the lab techs.  I'm not sure what incident prompted that, or who laid that rule down on her, but it's good to hear.

Again, you are making it about her.  I get it.  She sucks.  She's doing stuff she shouldn't and it's making your job more difficult.

But you want this to be solved by everyone realizing she's a moron, rather than making everyone realize that you aren't (in a nutshell).  I think it would be much more productive and professionally beneficial for you to focus on the latter, instead.  (And I realize that my use of "you are not a moron" might get your hackles up, so please know it was just a maybe-cute turn of phrase.  What I really mean is that you need to make them respect you and go to you for these things.  Not because they realize she's an idiot, but because the respect your expertise and are comfortable dealing with you.  It's not about them needing to see she's an idiot who gives out idiotic information.  Again, make them want to come to you, whether she or the person who may end up eventually replacing her, or someone else, is an idiot or not.  Work to shore you your reputation, rather than waiting for them to return to you once she's been fully exposed for what she is.

You shouldn't lie to people.  But are you thoughtful with how you deliver your truths?  Are you approachable?  Pleasant?  Do you make them feel dumb or embarrassed (unintentionally) or anxious when they do come to you?  When you have to research something, do you still project confidence, or do you act embarrassed or uncomfortable?  Do you get back to them as quickly as possible, and keep them updated if it's taking a while? 

frugalnacho

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #268 on: December 05, 2019, 11:52:35 AM »
And I say this as gently as possible--maybe there is a corresponding something about your personality at work that makes people not listen to or believe you.

That's what I've been trying to get at.  If you shore up the relationships with other people, then her nonsense will stop to matter because it will be ignored.  People will respect your authority and defer to your expertise.  If she chimes in, they will not listen because she is not the person to listen to with regard to safety. 

People are listening to an idiot outside her lane instead of you for matters directly concerning the lane you own.   It's not a pleasant reality, but that likely means that you have some relationships to work on or other changes to make.

Yes and we will eventually get to that point.  Some people have realized she's a dolt, but some other people are slower to come to that realization.  I'm definitely noticing a correlation that the dumber employees are slower to realize.  We have a lot of dumb employees. 

I think one of the things about my personality that makes me less believable than her is that I'm unwilling to to lie and fake my through it.  If you come to me with a complex situation that I'm unfamiliar with I am not willing to just bullshit you and say I instantly have the answer.  But that's what people want though, an instant expert answer, which sandy is more than willing to give immediately regardless of how well she understands the subject.

I did just hear her talking with a newly hired lab tech.  The lab manager was in a meeting, and lab tech was asking Sandy about how to do a specific method he hasn't been taught yet.  Sandy said she's not allowed to go over it with him as she has been instructed that she's no longer allowed to do lab tech work and has to leave that to the lab techs.  I'm not sure what incident prompted that, or who laid that rule down on her, but it's good to hear.

Again, you are making it about her.  I get it.  She sucks.  She's doing stuff she shouldn't and it's making your job more difficult.

But you want this to be solved by everyone realizing she's a moron, rather than making everyone realize that you aren't (in a nutshell).  I think it would be much more productive and professionally beneficial for you to focus on the latter, instead.  (And I realize that my use of "you are not a moron" might get your hackles up, so please know it was just a maybe-cute turn of phrase.  What I really mean is that you need to make them respect you and go to you for these things.  Not because they realize she's an idiot, but because the respect your expertise and are comfortable dealing with you.  It's not about them needing to see she's an idiot who gives out idiotic information.  Again, make them want to come to you, whether she or the person who may end up eventually replacing her, or someone else, is an idiot or not.  Work to shore you your reputation, rather than waiting for them to return to you once she's been fully exposed for what she is.

You shouldn't lie to people.  But are you thoughtful with how you deliver your truths?  Are you approachable?  Pleasant?  Do you make them feel dumb or embarrassed (unintentionally) or anxious when they do come to you?  When you have to research something, do you still project confidence, or do you act embarrassed or uncomfortable?  Do you get back to them as quickly as possible, and keep them updated if it's taking a while?

This thread is specifically about her, and me dealing with her though.  I am simultaneously building relationships with people, learning the processes and regulations, and getting better at my job.  I am solving problems and issues we have, and making improvements where I can.  I'm not reporting all of that though because this isn't a journal about my job, just a thread about her specifically.  In addition to people realizing she's a dolt, they are also realizing I'm not a dolt.  I can't work on everyone, and all issues, in all areas right now though.  It will take time for both of our reputations to be fully built within the company.

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #269 on: December 05, 2019, 11:59:06 AM »
And I say this as gently as possible--maybe there is a corresponding something about your personality at work that makes people not listen to or believe you.

That's what I've been trying to get at.  If you shore up the relationships with other people, then her nonsense will stop to matter because it will be ignored.  People will respect your authority and defer to your expertise.  If she chimes in, they will not listen because she is not the person to listen to with regard to safety. 

People are listening to an idiot outside her lane instead of you for matters directly concerning the lane you own.   It's not a pleasant reality, but that likely means that you have some relationships to work on or other changes to make.

Yes and we will eventually get to that point.  Some people have realized she's a dolt, but some other people are slower to come to that realization.  I'm definitely noticing a correlation that the dumber employees are slower to realize.  We have a lot of dumb employees. 

I think one of the things about my personality that makes me less believable than her is that I'm unwilling to to lie and fake my through it.  If you come to me with a complex situation that I'm unfamiliar with I am not willing to just bullshit you and say I instantly have the answer.  But that's what people want though, an instant expert answer, which sandy is more than willing to give immediately regardless of how well she understands the subject.

I did just hear her talking with a newly hired lab tech.  The lab manager was in a meeting, and lab tech was asking Sandy about how to do a specific method he hasn't been taught yet.  Sandy said she's not allowed to go over it with him as she has been instructed that she's no longer allowed to do lab tech work and has to leave that to the lab techs.  I'm not sure what incident prompted that, or who laid that rule down on her, but it's good to hear.

Again, you are making it about her.  I get it.  She sucks.  She's doing stuff she shouldn't and it's making your job more difficult.

But you want this to be solved by everyone realizing she's a moron, rather than making everyone realize that you aren't (in a nutshell).  I think it would be much more productive and professionally beneficial for you to focus on the latter, instead.  (And I realize that my use of "you are not a moron" might get your hackles up, so please know it was just a maybe-cute turn of phrase.  What I really mean is that you need to make them respect you and go to you for these things.  Not because they realize she's an idiot, but because the respect your expertise and are comfortable dealing with you.  It's not about them needing to see she's an idiot who gives out idiotic information.  Again, make them want to come to you, whether she or the person who may end up eventually replacing her, or someone else, is an idiot or not.  Work to shore you your reputation, rather than waiting for them to return to you once she's been fully exposed for what she is.

You shouldn't lie to people.  But are you thoughtful with how you deliver your truths?  Are you approachable?  Pleasant?  Do you make them feel dumb or embarrassed (unintentionally) or anxious when they do come to you?  When you have to research something, do you still project confidence, or do you act embarrassed or uncomfortable?  Do you get back to them as quickly as possible, and keep them updated if it's taking a while?
FN is new to this company. Honestly, his management should be supporting him and making it clear to the employees that this is his area and that they should take direction from him. The fact that SS is able to confuse the lab techs isn’t a reflection on FN who is new to the company, it’s a reflection on management. Now if FN had been at the company for years and had been clearly presented as the one with authority over safety and then if SS came in and the lab techs started immediately taking her word over FN, then I’d say FN has an issue with how he’s perceived. But that’s not this situation.

Villanelle

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #270 on: December 05, 2019, 12:58:06 PM »
And I say this as gently as possible--maybe there is a corresponding something about your personality at work that makes people not listen to or believe you.

That's what I've been trying to get at.  If you shore up the relationships with other people, then her nonsense will stop to matter because it will be ignored.  People will respect your authority and defer to your expertise.  If she chimes in, they will not listen because she is not the person to listen to with regard to safety. 

People are listening to an idiot outside her lane instead of you for matters directly concerning the lane you own.   It's not a pleasant reality, but that likely means that you have some relationships to work on or other changes to make.

Yes and we will eventually get to that point.  Some people have realized she's a dolt, but some other people are slower to come to that realization.  I'm definitely noticing a correlation that the dumber employees are slower to realize.  We have a lot of dumb employees. 

I think one of the things about my personality that makes me less believable than her is that I'm unwilling to to lie and fake my through it.  If you come to me with a complex situation that I'm unfamiliar with I am not willing to just bullshit you and say I instantly have the answer.  But that's what people want though, an instant expert answer, which sandy is more than willing to give immediately regardless of how well she understands the subject.

I did just hear her talking with a newly hired lab tech.  The lab manager was in a meeting, and lab tech was asking Sandy about how to do a specific method he hasn't been taught yet.  Sandy said she's not allowed to go over it with him as she has been instructed that she's no longer allowed to do lab tech work and has to leave that to the lab techs.  I'm not sure what incident prompted that, or who laid that rule down on her, but it's good to hear.

Again, you are making it about her.  I get it.  She sucks.  She's doing stuff she shouldn't and it's making your job more difficult.

But you want this to be solved by everyone realizing she's a moron, rather than making everyone realize that you aren't (in a nutshell).  I think it would be much more productive and professionally beneficial for you to focus on the latter, instead.  (And I realize that my use of "you are not a moron" might get your hackles up, so please know it was just a maybe-cute turn of phrase.  What I really mean is that you need to make them respect you and go to you for these things.  Not because they realize she's an idiot, but because the respect your expertise and are comfortable dealing with you.  It's not about them needing to see she's an idiot who gives out idiotic information.  Again, make them want to come to you, whether she or the person who may end up eventually replacing her, or someone else, is an idiot or not.  Work to shore you your reputation, rather than waiting for them to return to you once she's been fully exposed for what she is.

You shouldn't lie to people.  But are you thoughtful with how you deliver your truths?  Are you approachable?  Pleasant?  Do you make them feel dumb or embarrassed (unintentionally) or anxious when they do come to you?  When you have to research something, do you still project confidence, or do you act embarrassed or uncomfortable?  Do you get back to them as quickly as possible, and keep them updated if it's taking a while?
FN is new to this company. Honestly, his management should be supporting him and making it clear to the employees that this is his area and that they should take direction from him. The fact that SS is able to confuse the lab techs isn’t a reflection on FN who is new to the company, it’s a reflection on management. Now if FN had been at the company for years and had been clearly presented as the one with authority over safety and then if SS came in and the lab techs started immediately taking her word over FN, then I’d say FN has an issue with how he’s perceived. But that’s not this situation.

Of course they should be.  And of course this woman shouldn't be overstepping.  I haven't for a second implied otherwise. 

I was attempt to suggest ways of addressing the problem that are more in his control.  "Fix management" and "make sure everyone knows she sucks and stops respecting and listening to her" aren't really actionable.  Making sure they DO listen to him, and only him, on matters of safety is.

But FN has clarified that he's not looking for that in this thread, so I'll stop. 

Goldielocks

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #271 on: December 05, 2019, 03:46:57 PM »
Have I misread, or did someone at the company approve the co-worker's food for the meeting?  Someone must have endorsed it.

From what I remember, Safety Sandy has her own budget for buying chemical supplies (or something like that), which is part of her actual job. She used that for buying bagels for the meeting.

For those who suggest that Frugal Nacho should be buying pizza or bagels for his coworkers, from his own money, I wouldn't want to do that either. That is not a frugal thing to do. But maybe if FN ever wants to have a meeting, he could ask his boss to approve sponsoring bagels.

Not with his own money (although once could be a win, I don't think FN is that invested in long term tenure here)...   

With the company money which his boss pre-approves, as a means to turn around this dump truck of a mess they (company) have on their hands with Safety Sandy telling everyone how they will get sick and DIE! if they don't have unneeded (expensive) PPE and sit in furnace dust, and that the company lets the nano-bots climb into their skulls from the paint that is not packaged in bio-hazard bags...

------------------------
hmmm  are nano-bots bio hazards?  Now there is an interesting question.  When is life not life?  etc.   What about tech that acts like a virus... do you put it in a bio-hazard bag or a chemical/ trash bag, or do you need to use magnets or something on it first? 

frugalnacho

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #272 on: December 05, 2019, 05:48:32 PM »
One day in our shop and your nanobots are guaranteed to die of cancer

Linea_Norway

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #273 on: December 06, 2019, 01:58:23 AM »
I wondered whether OP's employer pays a lot of money per bag of hazardous waste. It would be a waste to fill them up with wrong waste. This could be another reason for management to stop her.

frugalnacho

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #274 on: December 06, 2019, 07:35:31 AM »
I wondered whether OP's employer pays a lot of money per bag of hazardous waste. It would be a waste to fill them up with wrong waste. This could be another reason for management to stop her.

Hazardous waste disposal is orders of magnitude more expensive than regular trash disposal.  This is due to a number of factors: the waste usually requires secure packaging because you can't really risk a hazardous waste leaking out and spilling like you can with regular garbage, it requires segregation and a special pick up, it requires extra attention during the entire transport process to ensure it doesn't spill or leak (unlike a regular garbage truck that drops small amounts of garbage and leaks "garbage juice"), and it requires special disposal/destruction once it reaches its final destination (based on what it is.  Cyanide needs to be destructed chemically, most flammables need to be incinerated, other chemicals need to be neutralized chemically, and some chemicals are essentially nuetralized by encasing them in something like concrete so they can't leech out into the environment). The entire process is tracked using manifests as well, so that any point in the transportation process you can trace where the waste originated from.  In theory every piece of hazardous waste that has ever been generated by anybody (and properly disposed of) has a paper trail so you know when it was generated and by who, what exactly is hazardous about it, who transported it, where it eventually ended up, and how it was ultimately disposed.  And if at some point in the future it's discovered that the disposal was inadequate, they have all those records so they know who is responsible.  This is a bit of an oversimplification, but you get the general idea.

A dumpster of regular trash is like $70 per load.  We just had loads of expired chemicals picked up, and I probably could have fit them all into a single dumpster, but it's going to cost close to $6k to properly dispose of it all.  If it wasn't loads of different chemicals and just one giant dumpster load worth of a single waste stream (for example 10 drums of sludge from the wastewater treatment - which means it's 10 drums all classified the exact same, and requires the exact same method of disposal, so it doesn't need to be parsed out), it would still be around $1-2k. 

As far as I know there is no such thing as just generic hazardous waste disposal.  We will need to segregate everything considered hazardous, and then create a profile for those waste streams.  If you have lots of different stuff you can get a "lab pack" disposal from a waste management company, and they will come take it all, but they are essentially doing the same thing behind the scene by going through every SDS and creating profiles, segregating it all, and then disposing of each stream appropriately.  It's a major pain in the ass, is very expensive, and goes far beyond merely putting it into a special colored bag. 

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #275 on: December 06, 2019, 07:47:26 AM »
And I say this as gently as possible--maybe there is a corresponding something about your personality at work that makes people not listen to or believe you.

That's what I've been trying to get at.  If you shore up the relationships with other people, then her nonsense will stop to matter because it will be ignored.  People will respect your authority and defer to your expertise.  If she chimes in, they will not listen because she is not the person to listen to with regard to safety. 

People are listening to an idiot outside her lane instead of you for matters directly concerning the lane you own.   It's not a pleasant reality, but that likely means that you have some relationships to work on or other changes to make.

Yes and we will eventually get to that point.  Some people have realized she's a dolt, but some other people are slower to come to that realization.  I'm definitely noticing a correlation that the dumber employees are slower to realize.  We have a lot of dumb employees. 

I think one of the things about my personality that makes me less believable than her is that I'm unwilling to to lie and fake my through it.  If you come to me with a complex situation that I'm unfamiliar with I am not willing to just bullshit you and say I instantly have the answer.  But that's what people want though, an instant expert answer, which sandy is more than willing to give immediately regardless of how well she understands the subject.

I did just hear her talking with a newly hired lab tech.  The lab manager was in a meeting, and lab tech was asking Sandy about how to do a specific method he hasn't been taught yet.  Sandy said she's not allowed to go over it with him as she has been instructed that she's no longer allowed to do lab tech work and has to leave that to the lab techs.  I'm not sure what incident prompted that, or who laid that rule down on her, but it's good to hear.

Again, you are making it about her.  I get it.  She sucks.  She's doing stuff she shouldn't and it's making your job more difficult.

But you want this to be solved by everyone realizing she's a moron, rather than making everyone realize that you aren't (in a nutshell).  I think it would be much more productive and professionally beneficial for you to focus on the latter, instead.  (And I realize that my use of "you are not a moron" might get your hackles up, so please know it was just a maybe-cute turn of phrase.  What I really mean is that you need to make them respect you and go to you for these things.  Not because they realize she's an idiot, but because the respect your expertise and are comfortable dealing with you.  It's not about them needing to see she's an idiot who gives out idiotic information.  Again, make them want to come to you, whether she or the person who may end up eventually replacing her, or someone else, is an idiot or not.  Work to shore you your reputation, rather than waiting for them to return to you once she's been fully exposed for what she is.

You shouldn't lie to people.  But are you thoughtful with how you deliver your truths?  Are you approachable?  Pleasant?  Do you make them feel dumb or embarrassed (unintentionally) or anxious when they do come to you?  When you have to research something, do you still project confidence, or do you act embarrassed or uncomfortable?  Do you get back to them as quickly as possible, and keep them updated if it's taking a while?
FN is new to this company. Honestly, his management should be supporting him and making it clear to the employees that this is his area and that they should take direction from him. The fact that SS is able to confuse the lab techs isn’t a reflection on FN who is new to the company, it’s a reflection on management. Now if FN had been at the company for years and had been clearly presented as the one with authority over safety and then if SS came in and the lab techs started immediately taking her word over FN, then I’d say FN has an issue with how he’s perceived. But that’s not this situation.

Of course they should be.  And of course this woman shouldn't be overstepping.  I haven't for a second implied otherwise. 

I was attempt to suggest ways of addressing the problem that are more in his control.  "Fix management" and "make sure everyone knows she sucks and stops respecting and listening to her" aren't really actionable.  Making sure they DO listen to him, and only him, on matters of safety is.

But FN has clarified that he's not looking for that in this thread, so I'll stop.

I think you have been one of the more thoughtful voices in this echo chamber of condescension, personally. Thanks for trying to inject helpful discourse.

frugalnacho

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #276 on: December 20, 2019, 11:23:36 AM »
Well it's finally happening folks.  Safety Sandy has finally run the gamut and pissed off other people in the company.  I was aware she was bumping heads with the finance department, but apparently she was also bumping heads with my manager, other area supervisors, and even the owner of the company. All of her responsibilities are going to be shifted to other people and her position is being eliminated with the start of the new year.  No one besides management is aware of this yet.  Her total time at the company will have been 7 months.  Much longer than I would have figured.  It sure was a wild ride.  I laughed, I cried, I vented my unfiltered thoughts in this thread in abundance an it helped keep me from going insane.

I believe this is the right move by the company, and I would have done it myself if I had the authority.  I'm glad it's finally being done, but at the same time I feel bad for her.  I've never been fired, but I've been laid off when the plant closed, and it totally sucked.  I'm highly employable and landed on my feet (in this dumpster fire of a company), but I turned down other job offers to take this one.  I don't think she is going to have the luxury of being so highly employable.  I feel like I want to celebrate, but also feels a bit like dancing on someone's grave.  I mean I'm still going to celebrate tonight because it is going to relieve a giant headache for me.




former player

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #277 on: December 20, 2019, 11:34:11 AM »
I'm pleased for you.

Also a bit sorry for safety sandy, though.  I think her main problem is that she is trying to do the wrong sort of job for her abilities.  Such an obvious "people person" should be in some sort of customer facing/PR role - preferably one in which her mistakes are not going to be safety critical ones.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #278 on: December 20, 2019, 12:07:30 PM »
I'm pleased for you.

Also a bit sorry for safety sandy, though.  I think her main problem is that she is trying to do the wrong sort of job for her abilities.  Such an obvious "people person" should be in some sort of customer facing/PR role - preferably one in which her mistakes are not going to be safety critical ones.

I'm not sure that talking shit you just made up is ever a good thing in a job. Even if she worked in mall retail she'd be giving the wrong information. What's going to happen if someone asks her if the clothing manufacturer uses child labour, or if the doughnut contains nuts? She's totally capable of creating a PR nightmare wherever she goes.

SunnyDays

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #279 on: December 20, 2019, 01:36:48 PM »
Best Christmas present ever huh?  Too bad they’re talking the approach of phasing out the job though, because someone needs to sit this woman down and tell her the truth.  Otherwise she’ll be doing this for the rest of her life.

iris lily

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #280 on: December 20, 2019, 04:56:23 PM »
Best Christmas present ever huh?  Too bad they’re talking the approach of phasing out the job though, because someone needs to sit this woman down and tell her the truth.  Otherwise she’ll be doing this for the rest of her life.
This kind of employee has been coached on appropriate behavior many times by many managers at many jobs. Sitting her down for a repeat is just a waste of someone’s time.

Buh bye Sandy!

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #281 on: December 21, 2019, 02:58:49 AM »
I feel a bit sad for people that are fired too.... but.. in this case, it is likely that Sandy is used to being fired every 3 months to 1 year, so she may take it in stride and have a system worked out.

Catbert

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #282 on: December 22, 2019, 01:08:46 PM »
Don't feel too sorry for her.  IIRC her previous jobs generally lasted 3-6 months so 7 months is longer than typical for her.  She's getting a "layoff" rather than firing for "cause" so she'll collect unemployment and have a nice break until she finds another employer.

iris lily

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #283 on: December 22, 2019, 02:36:42 PM »
Don't feel too sorry for her.  IIRC her previous jobs generally lasted 3-6 months so 7 months is longer than typical for her.  She's getting a "layoff" rather than firing for "cause" so she'll collect unemployment and have a nice break until she finds another employer.

I for one hope she can go back to reviewing and correcting doctors’ orders. They dont know much about nano bots, so she will be able to aid patients in that regard.

frugalnacho

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #284 on: December 23, 2019, 07:18:49 AM »
I agree that sitting her down and explaining what she is doing/has done wrong is likely a waste of everyone's time.  She's totally clueless, and it's not for lack of being told.  I've told her multiple times she's wrong on something, but she's in denial and knows better than me.  I think it's likely the same thing if top management told her; it would just turn into another story about this crazy ass place she worked with crazy ass managers that didn't know shit about anything, and they actually let her go because they didn't want to deal with the reality of implementing the correct procedures for safety and hazardous waste.  All the details about her being really dumb and overstepping her boundaries into areas she's grossly under qualified in would be completely lost in her version of the narrative, just like it is with her previous employers.  I'm sure you voluntarily left all 10 of those short stint jobs listed on your resume, and none of them fired you.  I am also pretty sure a lot of the technical stuff that gets done around here will be listed on her resume as well.   Atomic absorption spectroscopy? Oh yeah I have tons of experience with that, in the lab I used to manage we used one daily.  Even though she neither manages the lab, nor has ever used the AAS.

As annoying and frustrating as she is though, she is still a real person, and she also has multiple kids.  I can only imagine she is a typical american and is going to have some xmas related debt on some credit cards, so getting fired/laid off right after xmas will be quite the blow.  I hope she can get some unemployment and find another job soon, hopefully one better suited to her personality and skill set.

Roadrunner53

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #285 on: December 23, 2019, 08:05:12 AM »
So many people are their worst enemy. Makes you wonder if they actually have an agenda or are just know it all's. I worked with a guy who could be a very nice person, but he had to interject himself in to everyone else's business. He and I worked a lot together and at times he was great and other times he would just get too personal or try to run the show. One of the last straws was when he came to me and decided that what I was doing wasn't what he thought I should be doing. My boss assigned me the work I was doing and I was doing exactly what I was supposed to do. I was furious! Even worse, had he got his nose into my business, he would have interfered with my relationship with my boss! My boss would have thought I crabbed to this individual about my assignment which I loved! I told him to mind his business and I was doing exactly what I was assigned to do and to butt out! Of course, he couldn't get it thru his thick head and approached me a second time to tell me I should be doing something else. OMG! My boss was a Director of our department not an idiot! At that point, my head was ready to explode and told him it was none of his business what I was doing and told him he was NOT my boss! I told him this was MY job not his. I also told him how would he like it if I went to his boss and told them he should be doing something different. Of course he couldn't comprehend that. We were no longer friendly to each other. It was uncomfortable because I did like him. I tolerated some of his crap but this was the frosting on the cake!

I didn't realize that he had alienated so many of our coworkers during the 4 years I worked there. No one wanted to be around him. I don't know what bee got up his butt to all of a sudden decide I should be doing something else. He absolutely had nothing to do with assigning me work. Is that ballsy or what? What a JERK!

frugalnacho

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #286 on: December 23, 2019, 11:31:29 AM »
Back at it again!  I need the water bills for an upcoming inspection, and she's the one the billing department forwards them to, so I go to her and say I am missing some.

No, I put those on your desk.
Yeah, I know, but I am still missing some.
Are you sure? I put those on your desk.
Yes I am sure, I have gone through and organized them by account number, and then in chronological order.  I am missing Nov 2019 for both accounts.
(after a minute searching around on her computer) Ah, here it is.
Nope, this is October.  I already have October, I need November.
(another minute searching around on her computer) Ah, here it is.
Nope, this is December.  I already have December, I need November.
There actually isn't a November because they do the billing cycle every 2 months, not every month.  So it's just these two.
No I'm pretty sure it's monthly, I have all the other months right here.
No it's actually every 2 months.  That's how they do my water bill at home too, every 2 months, so I get a bill for 2 months worth.
.........*blank stare*


I'm standing there holding a pile of monthly bills from Nov 2018 up through Dec 2019, and I have every bill but November 2019 for both accounts and she is telling me they do bimonthly billing.  WTF Sandy? How are you gonna claim it's bimonthly when I'm holding 11 consecutive months worth of bills for each account?

I am trying to have some sympathy for her since I know the axe is dropping for her, but...arg.  Bye Felicia. 


SunnyDays

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #287 on: December 23, 2019, 11:55:00 AM »
What, you’ve never heard of alternative facts?

What amazes me is that she keeps getting hired with her job history.  Doesn’t anyone check references?

markbike528CBX

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #288 on: December 23, 2019, 12:12:48 PM »
What, you’ve never heard of alternative facts?

What amazes me is that she keeps getting hired with her job history.  Doesn’t anyone check references?

Often references at prior jobs consist of "yes, SS worked here". I've been told to refer any inquiries to HR for someone fired for documented credit card fraud (among other faults of personality).

On the other hand, my inquiry to a reference was once answered "I wouldn't touch X with a ten foot pole".
Ouch, round-filed THAT application fast.

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #289 on: December 23, 2019, 02:03:19 PM »
Great decision to let this nut go.  The recent water bill story takes the absolute cake. I can't even comprehend how a sane person could legitimately sit there and tell you to your face the bills are bi monthly when you have monthly bills for over a year LOL

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #290 on: December 23, 2019, 03:34:33 PM »
Back at it again!  I need the water bills for an upcoming inspection, and she's the one the billing department forwards them to, so I go to her and say I am missing some.

No, I put those on your desk.
Yeah, I know, but I am still missing some.
Are you sure? I put those on your desk.
Yes I am sure, I have gone through and organized them by account number, and then in chronological order.  I am missing Nov 2019 for both accounts.
(after a minute searching around on her computer) Ah, here it is.
Nope, this is October.  I already have October, I need November.
(another minute searching around on her computer) Ah, here it is.
Nope, this is December.  I already have December, I need November.
There actually isn't a November because they do the billing cycle every 2 months, not every month.  So it's just these two.
No I'm pretty sure it's monthly, I have all the other months right here.
No it's actually every 2 months.  That's how they do my water bill at home too, every 2 months, so I get a bill for 2 months worth.
.........*blank stare*


I'm standing there holding a pile of monthly bills from Nov 2018 up through Dec 2019, and I have every bill but November 2019 for both accounts and she is telling me they do bimonthly billing.  WTF Sandy? How are you gonna claim it's bimonthly when I'm holding 11 consecutive months worth of bills for each account?

I am trying to have some sympathy for her since I know the axe is dropping for her, but...arg.  Bye Felicia.

Does she have no comprehension that bills are done quite differently for a home vs business entity??? Having said that, my best guess is that her home bills are actually monthly....

BlueHouse

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #291 on: December 24, 2019, 07:07:13 AM »

What amazes me is that she keeps getting hired with her job history.  Doesn’t anyone check references?

Safety Sandy has a skill that you've overlooked.  The ability to interview well.  Confidence like hers comes off very well in an interview and those people typically get higher paid jobs every time they switch because they have a few more buzzwords to add to their resume. 

@frugalnacho this has been one of the most interesting threads in a while.  Thanks for sharing your torment with all of us.

frugalnacho

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #292 on: December 24, 2019, 10:25:25 AM »
I think it's fairly typical to not actually check into listed references and verify stuff.  As far as I know no one has actually verified my college degree or any of my credentials, for any of my jobs.  I don't think most companies spend the time and resources to do that, even though they say they do.  Maybe they do though and my experience is not representative as it's extremely limited to only a few companies I've dealt with. 

The job I turned down to take this one was with a large consulting company with like 80,000 employees world wide.  They told me all about how they contacted my former employer (who they had worked with extensively in the past) and they had lots of good things to say about me. I'm still good friends with my old boss and keep in regular contact though, and he said no one ever contacted him.

I know some companies do call up references though because I've been listed as a reference for a few co-workers and they did call me to ask questions about them.  Even with that, they just called up the number my coworker gave them. I'm not sure they had anyway to verify anything I said.  I could have just been pulling a George constanza on them and faking everything.  "Hello, vandalay industries..."

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #293 on: December 24, 2019, 01:21:51 PM »

What amazes me is that she keeps getting hired with her job history.  Doesn’t anyone check references?

Safety Sandy has a skill that you've overlooked.  The ability to interview well.  Confidence like hers comes off very well in an interview and those people typically get higher paid jobs every time they switch because they have a few more buzzwords to add to their resume. 

@frugalnacho this has been one of the most interesting threads in a while.  Thanks for sharing your torment with all of us.

There is so much truth here!  Most people can't lie or even significantly exaggerate without being a bit awkward or uncomfortable.  And in interviews, often people are slightly uncomfortable and uncertain.  Sandy has proven she can confidently blurt out whatever she deems to be the correct answer, with confidence.  I can see how that would look great in an interview. 

KBecks

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #294 on: December 24, 2019, 01:45:07 PM »
Hopefully she spell checks her future job applications.

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #295 on: January 06, 2020, 09:49:17 AM »
Best Christmas present ever huh?  Too bad they’re talking the approach of phasing out the job though, because someone needs to sit this woman down and tell her the truth.  Otherwise she’ll be doing this for the rest of her life.
This kind of employee has been coached on appropriate behavior many times by many managers at many jobs. Sitting her down for a repeat is just a waste of someone’s time.

Buh bye Sandy!
Oh, I think that is an assumption that is likely to be wrong.

The majority of managers do not provide realistic feedback to employees.  As one who does and having heard dozens of times that I was the first person they worked for who every told them of whatever problem we were discussing and they wish they had known sooner because it explained all the problems they had in other jobs, I never think it is a waste of time.  In fact is it downright rude to let someone like this go without making her aware of areas that were lacking.  Company can still cover their legal tail by sticking with the "position is being eliminated" story line but share they noticed some other items that would likely have blossomed into a concern shortly.

iris lily

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #296 on: January 06, 2020, 09:58:29 AM »
Best Christmas present ever huh?  Too bad they’re talking the approach of phasing out the job though, because someone needs to sit this woman down and tell her the truth.  Otherwise she’ll be doing this for the rest of her life.
This kind of employee has been coached on appropriate behavior many times by many managers at many jobs. Sitting her down for a repeat is just a waste of someone’s time.

Buh bye Sandy!
Oh, I think that is an assumption that is likely to be wrong.

The majority of managers do not provide realistic feedback to employees.  As one who does and having heard dozens of times that I was the first person they worked for who every told them of whatever problem we were discussing and they wish they had known sooner because it explained all the problems they had in other jobs, I never think it is a waste of time.  In fact is it downright rude to let someone like this go without making her aware of areas that were lacking.  Company can still cover their legal tail by sticking with the "position is being eliminated" story line but share they noticed some other items that would likely have blossomed into a concern shortly.

You may be right there, but having managed employees for 35 years I have run into the occasional employee who is directly told “this behavior of yours is unacceptable” and they do not “hear” it. Or at least they do not internalize it. I know because they are surprised to hear it later. And yet again. It is always a surprise.

But certainly there are managers who just do not want to confront the idiotic behaviors of the Sandys of the working world.

Goldielocks

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #297 on: January 07, 2020, 01:25:14 AM »
Sandy was pretty extreme.   I know if she did not "play possum" and stay under the radar for the first while, I would have had her genteelly terminated within the 3 month probation period, or not so efficiently within the 6 month period.

If so, I would have not given any feedback other than "not the right fit for our team at this time".  "Wish you all the best." etc.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #298 on: January 07, 2020, 02:04:54 AM »
Sandy was pretty extreme.   I know if she did not "play possum" and stay under the radar for the first while, I would have had her genteelly terminated within the 3 month probation period, or not so efficiently within the 6 month period.

If so, I would have not given any feedback other than "not the right fit for our team at this time".  "Wish you all the best." etc.

I like the "encouraged to seek excellence elsewhere"

frugalnacho

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Re: Dealing with a know-it-all coworker
« Reply #299 on: January 07, 2020, 07:23:29 AM »
I get what you all are saying about providing feedback, and in general I agree.  In almost all cases someone should get some feedback from management about their performance before it becomes a problem, and when the decision to fire them is made it would be good to explain the exact reasons why.   I know I would appreciate that.  Sandy is different though.  She's been given feedback from me, and from others, and the feedback is completely useless and not well received, and usually backfires.  That's kind of the problem.  She does something rogue, and it's completely wrong because she has no understanding of what she is doing, and you try to point that out, and all you get is back sass about how she knows better.  It's incredibly frustrating to deal with, and apparently every other manager in the company feels the same way and wants her gone.

"Umm, when was your last chemistry class?!" Bitch I have a chemical engineering degree and you can't even pronounce sulfuric acid, stop trying to school me on basic chemistry. 

She is not even technically an employee, she was hired through a temp agency and has been contracted under them since her start date.