Author Topic: Daughter problem  (Read 8867 times)

ronwelmsy

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Daughter problem
« on: June 15, 2017, 09:19:03 AM »
So I have been telling my daughter(18 yo) about living a mustachian for 13 years even before we found out about mustachian. I have been living being mustachian even before I found this forum.  I am just using the word mustachian. Anyway she understands it.  I told her that if she finish college and become independent she can do what she wants as it is her own money. Last semester, her first year in college she lived in the dorm.  Now she is back from college for the summer her personality change 180.  She wants to go out and spend her money like her friends.  Wants to buy a car using her savings and getting a cell phone service.  She has a prepaid $100 phone.  She said she doesnt care if she takes on student loan and she will take as many as she needs to live like her friends.   I have talk to her about not living like this as this will be very difficult.  I told her without us she can't take a loan.  I am at a lost.  I felt that I should have never let her go to college to be influenced by friends.  What to do about this situation?

Car Jack

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Re: Daughter problem
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2017, 09:25:50 AM »
You're not a bank.  If she says she'll get loans, then well alrighty then.  It'll be without you, though.  How's her grades?  Is she in a "real" major or just an "MRS" degree?  With my son (in college), I always gave him his alternative to doing well in his engineering degree.  We even toured the community college (which looks like an Eastern Block industrial complex) so he has a visual of where he'll be going if he screws up. 

Sounds like she's still a teenager.  You have to remember that all teenagers are morons.  No, like really.....they're all morons.  Good luck.  By the way....she has a summer job, right?

extremedefense

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Re: Daughter problem
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2017, 09:28:31 AM »
So I have been telling my daughter(18 yo) about living a mustachian for 13 years even before we found out about mustachian. I have been living being mustachian even before I found this forum.  I am just using the word mustachian. Anyway she understands it.  I told her that if she finish college and become independent she can do what she wants as it is her own money. Last semester, her first year in college she lived in the dorm.  Now she is back from college for the summer her personality change 180.  She wants to go out and spend her money like her friends.  Wants to buy a car using her savings and getting a cell phone service.  She has a prepaid $100 phone.  She said she doesnt care if she takes on student loan and she will take as many as she needs to live like her friends.   I have talk to her about not living like this as this will be very difficult.  I told her without us she can't take a loan.  I am at a lost.  I felt that I should have never let her go to college to be influenced by friends.  What to do about this situation?
You've done your best to teach her 18 years. She's an adult and can make her own choices.

I graduated college this May and I'm not going to pay off my loans early since they're 3.76% APR and with the 0.25% autopay discount, 3.51% is not something I'm going to pay off early.

Let her take the loans (federal not private), she'll be fine in the long run.

Relax man, you've done good these last 18 years, now you just need to respect her choices and give her advice when she asks for it.

Good luck!

joonifloofeefloo

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Re: Daughter problem
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2017, 09:30:01 AM »
You've done what you can. You've taught her over many years, and you've talked with her about the nonwisdom of her new desires.

You can refuse to sign on a loan, and offer/negotiate an agreement, but at 18 and in college, she will have new, independent ideas come up, and she will make mistakes that she will have to recover herself from. This is normal and healthy. Hard to watch, but her journey to take. Your role now will be more advisement when she requests it and just loving her up while she explores.

ronwelmsy

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Re: Daughter problem
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2017, 09:45:53 AM »
You're not a bank.  If she says she'll get loans, then well alrighty then.  It'll be without you, though.  How's her grades?  Is she in a "real" major or just an "MRS" degree?  With my son (in college), I always gave him his alternative to doing well in his engineering degree.  We even toured the community college (which looks like an Eastern Block industrial complex) so he has a visual of where he'll be going if he screws up. 

Sounds like she's still a teenager.  You have to remember that all teenagers are morons.  No, like really.....they're all morons.  Good luck.  By the way....she has a summer job, right?

Her grades are average,3b's and 2c's.  She's studying to be a nurse but because of competitiveness of the field, she has to almost ace her core classes. She has tried real hard to get good grades, but they are difficult and she has fallen short. We support her in changing her degree and she is looking at alternatives but she wants to be in the health care field. She has a couple of summer jobs, one full-time working at the beach with friends and one that she only works some weekends. After working at the beach, she wants to go hang out with friends. I've she's been hanging out with friends all day, so why not have a balance and come home. I'm not sure that she can get a loan on her own without us co-signing for them so essentially, they're our loans. So we've been helping pay for school so she doesn't have to get a loan. The money she earns is going to pay for her school. I feel she had so much freedom at school she's now having issues with our rules and supervision. Obviously, we worry about her getting out of control.

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Re: Daughter problem
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2017, 10:12:55 AM »
She's out of your hands, Ron.  Don't try to force her to come home.  ASK her if she will be home for dinner, or if she would like to do something with you guys.  She's an adult now... It crept up on you, but it's here.

As for Nursing.  Even with mid-range grades, there are TONS of nursing jobs.  She'll be fine, if that's where she wants to be.  She doesn't need more than a 3.0.

As for paying for her school, that's the only thing that you need to figure out with her.  Define how much you will pay for each semester.
 What are her plans for paying beyond "$X" amount.  The rest is in her hands.

Good luck!

Laura33

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Re: Daughter problem
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2017, 10:15:36 AM »
You're not a bank.  If she says she'll get loans, then well alrighty then.  It'll be without you, though.  How's her grades?  Is she in a "real" major or just an "MRS" degree?  With my son (in college), I always gave him his alternative to doing well in his engineering degree.  We even toured the community college (which looks like an Eastern Block industrial complex) so he has a visual of where he'll be going if he screws up. 

Sounds like she's still a teenager.  You have to remember that all teenagers are morons.  No, like really.....they're all morons.  Good luck.  By the way....she has a summer job, right?

Her grades are average,3b's and 2c's.  She's studying to be a nurse but because of competitiveness of the field, she has to almost ace her core classes. She has tried real hard to get good grades, but they are difficult and she has fallen short. We support her in changing her degree and she is looking at alternatives but she wants to be in the health care field. She has a couple of summer jobs, one full-time working at the beach with friends and one that she only works some weekends. After working at the beach, she wants to go hang out with friends. I've she's been hanging out with friends all day, so why not have a balance and come home. I'm not sure that she can get a loan on her own without us co-signing for them so essentially, they're our loans. So we've been helping pay for school so she doesn't have to get a loan. The money she earns is going to pay for her school. I feel she had so much freedom at school she's now having issues with our rules and supervision. Obviously, we worry about her getting out of control.

Umm, the money is the tail wagging the dog here.  She's 18.  She's supposed to be separating from you -- wanting to hang out with friends, contesting ongoing parental supervision, and making her own decisions about how she wants to spend her life.  Even if they're stupid.  And the more tightly you try to hang on, the more she will need to commit herself to the opposite approach just to prove her independence.  The "preacher's daughter" became a stereotype for a reason. 

The best way to keep her from getting out of control is to stop trying so hard to control her.  You don't need to "help" her do things you don't agree with -- don't co-sign loans that she will use to inflate her lifestyle, let her live on what she earns like everyone else; if she wants to bring a boyfriend home and you don't agree with overnight sleepovers, you don't have to let him stay in her room; etc.  You have every right to expect basic courtesy ("Dad, I won't be home this weekend"), but not to dictate where she goes or how often she comes home -- if she wants to hang out with friends and spend money that she earns, well, that's really not something you should concern yourself with. 

You've had 18 years to instill your values; trust that you've done a good job, and trust her to find her way back to them once she gets over the giddiness of throwing off the shackles.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Daughter problem
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2017, 10:21:07 AM »
I feel she had so much freedom at school she's now having issues with our rules and supervision. Obviously, we worry about her getting out of control.

Obviously.  And she feels she had a year of being an adult and is now back under your thumb (my interpretation of her feelings, not my feeling).  Seriously.  I was a very responsible teenager, but my life totally changed when I went away to university.  I had summer jobs for the next three years where I did not live at home.  By the time circumstances had me living at home for a summer job the fact that I was an adult was clear.   I would have taken any summer job to not have to live at home, just because I knew I would regress in my developing maturity if I had lived at home.

Your daughter is 18, she is an adult.  How much control do you expect to have over her?  How much rules and supervision? She isn't in high school any more.  When DD was 18 I had basically no rules and supervision for her general life.  Sure there were rules, but they were more general, along the lines of what we would and would not pay for and under what circumstances.  But anything else?  She was an adult, it was up to her to arrange her life (finances, school, where she lived, friends, etc.).

As Joon said, your roles have changed.  You are semi-retired as parents now.

ketchup

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Re: Daughter problem
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2017, 10:56:09 AM »
After I came home from college for the first time (for fall break), I realized that the dynamic had changed.  I no longer *asked* my parents if I could do something.  I *told* them what I was doing.  I haven't asked for their permission to do a damned thing since.  I asked favors of them (Can I use your car today? Can I borrow x? Can you help me do x?), but never asked them for permission to do anything that didn't affect them.  Hell, I bought a house at age 20 without them knowing.

She's an adult and used to her newfound independence.  If you rain on that parade too hard, she'll overcorrect.  I've been a stubborn 18-year-old before.

Dee18

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Re: Daughter problem
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2017, 11:52:52 AM »
You've received much good advice here, especially (1) don't co-sign any loans and (2) she is finding her own way, and that can be hard to watch.  I'm a college prof and I have a child that is going into the junior year of college.  The first year was rocky in many ways, but she found her footing the second year and I hope your daughter does too.

Regarding grades though: unfortunately, 3 Bs and 2 Cs are not average grades in 2017. If those are her exact grades, she has a 2.6 GPA in a time when the average college GPA is a 3.11.  https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/11/21/college-grade-inflation-what-does-an-mean/3662003/
If she did well in high school, this would suggest to me that she is not devoting enough time to her studies.  I'm not suggesting you could or should do anything about that, just pointing out the reality of grade inflation. 

ysette9

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Re: Daughter problem
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2017, 12:30:24 PM »
Quote
Regarding grades though: unfortunately, 3 Bs and 2 Cs are not average grades in 2017. If those are her exact grades, she has a 2.6 GPA in a time when the average college GPA is a 3.11

I agree. I would be concerned about these grades. Grades in college are a reflection of how hard she is working, and this is a very important investment in her future. Maybe it isn't the right major, but a lot of the lower division stuff for nursing is going to be the same no matter what she majors in. I wouldn't co-sign any loans, not just because you want her to make better financial decisions, but from a return-on-investment point of view, a 2.6 GPA is a bad return on academic investment.

You might need to consider other options such as her not working and focusing all of her time on school with the expectation that you will help more as long as she gets and keeps her grades up. She may need to leave the 4-year university and go to junior college for a few years to figure out the transition in a smaller and more supportive environment (I certainly wasn't ready to go away to a big school at 18). Maybe she could do part-time at the junior college while working to ease a transition. Personally I found there was nothing like working low-wage, dead-end jobs at 18-19 to motivate me to do well in school, because I could so clearly see the incentive in the form of a better job with more money.

PoutineLover

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Re: Daughter problem
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2017, 12:37:07 PM »
Important caveat with the grades thing, it does depend on the school to a certain extent. My school had very low grades and the class average was often C+ to B. This was engineering in a highly competitive Canadian university. If her transcripts show the class average, you'll see how she is doing in relation to her classmates. I think grade inflation is stupid, there's no way half of all students deserve As. Also, I worked in the student services office for years and it's very common to have low/average grades in the first year and work your way up in later years, for that reason many schools consider the last 2 years GPA as more meaningful for grad admissions than the overall GPA. She may have had a hard time adjusting the demands of university, but if she really likes her program she may do better as she gets to the more interesting, higher level stuff.

a-scho

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Re: Daughter problem
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2017, 01:48:50 PM »
1. do not co-sign any loans.
2. I do not know how much of her education you are paying for, or how much you are shelling out per semester. But, If you feel she is not living up to her end of the deal by getting middling grades, then you can make up ground rules of how much you are willing to pay going forward. For example, have her pay for a semester of school. If she gets B's or better then you will reimburse her the total amount at the end of the semester. She can then use that reimbursement money to pay for the next semester, rinse, repeat. By the end of the last semester, she will get reimbursed, which will end up paying her back all the money she put in. It will incentivize her to get decent grades and also give you a better picture on how serious she is about her education. If she does get C's then offer to reimburse only half, D's/F's no reimbursement. Example semester: six classes costing $6,000, she got 2 A's, 2 B's, 1 C, and 1 D. You would reimburse her $4,500. In order for her to pay upfront, she is going to have to have some money saved, take out loans, or get a job. You will get a REALLY good idea of how important something is when they have to pay for it themselves.
3. If she finds herself having a tough time with GE courses, she might be better off going to community college first and then transferring. It is also less expensive. In my experience, GE courses are easier than MAJOR courses. So, if she's kind of struggling during her GE's then she might not really be ready for college at all. She's more interested in "being like her friends". So let her........and make clear boundaries of what you will allow in your household, if she ends up moving back home,  and what you will contribute to her chosen lifestyle, if anything at all.

ronwelmsy

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Re: Daughter problem
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2017, 03:10:06 PM »
I just wondered why this never happened with my uncles 6 kids from 2 different wives. As well as my other relatives, it doesn't seem that they had these kinds of problems with their kids. I don't know why 18 is such a "magic" number. Not all kids are mature enough to go out on their own and make decisions that could have an impact on the rest of their lives. I appreciate all the feedback and suggestions and will take them to heart. We were enforcing the rule, "you live under my roof, you go by my rules". We're not telling her she can't do anything, we just think that until she is completely supporting herself and living on her own, we should be able to have some input into her activities. Regarding the preachers daughter, my daughter is a beautiful girl, I'm not just saying that because I'm her parent, but this will be my next worry that will give me a heart attack, is that boys are going to start to come around and I would prefer she wait to get into a serious relationship until after she graduates from college.
I'm hoping the grades take a turn upwards as PoutineLover mentioned that she was adjusting to college life and what it takes to get an "A" in college is much more difficult than in high school. She certainly has the desire to do better.
She doesn't work during the school semester so that's not an issue. Therefore, we are asking her to maximize her time to work during the summer so she doesn't have to worry about working during school. We want her to focus solely on school.
If she was a straight "A" student, I wouldn't put any restrictions on what she does.
If I only knew that this would be the outcome, I wouldn't have had any kids. It's not worth it. I'm a nervous wreck right now.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 03:14:02 PM by ronwelmsy »

ysette9

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Re: Daughter problem
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2017, 03:32:39 PM »
Good luck. It sounds nerve-wracking. I have a long way until I am worrying about similar things with my own daughter.

Quote
I would prefer she wait to get into a serious relationship until after she graduates from college.

Hope all you want, but I would mentally prepare yourself for the likelihood of this happening. Many people meet their future partner in college. Heck. It is a great place to meet someone, especially if you want to meet someone with similar values. I started dating my now-husband in college.

mm1970

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Re: Daughter problem
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2017, 04:39:06 PM »
I just wondered why this never happened with my uncles 6 kids from 2 different wives. As well as my other relatives, it doesn't seem that they had these kinds of problems with their kids. I don't know why 18 is such a "magic" number. Not all kids are mature enough to go out on their own and make decisions that could have an impact on the rest of their lives. I appreciate all the feedback and suggestions and will take them to heart. We were enforcing the rule, "you live under my roof, you go by my rules". We're not telling her she can't do anything, we just think that until she is completely supporting herself and living on her own, we should be able to have some input into her activities. Regarding the preachers daughter, my daughter is a beautiful girl, I'm not just saying that because I'm her parent, but this will be my next worry that will give me a heart attack, is that boys are going to start to come around and I would prefer she wait to get into a serious relationship until after she graduates from college.
I'm hoping the grades take a turn upwards as PoutineLover mentioned that she was adjusting to college life and what it takes to get an "A" in college is much more difficult than in high school. She certainly has the desire to do better.
She doesn't work during the school semester so that's not an issue. Therefore, we are asking her to maximize her time to work during the summer so she doesn't have to worry about working during school. We want her to focus solely on school.
If she was a straight "A" student, I wouldn't put any restrictions on what she does.
If I only knew that this would be the outcome, I wouldn't have had any kids. It's not worth it. I'm a nervous wreck right now.

18 isn't magic.  Studies show that kids aren't necessarily able to make good decisions until 25.  Some younger, some older.  Personalities differ.  That probably explains the difference from your Uncle's six kids.  But what are his rules?

My mom cosigned my loans, but we were broke, and I knew I was on the hook for them.  I used the money for tuition, and room and board directly to the school.  I didn't have extra money to live the high life, I had to use money raised at work to pay for food.

So, don't co-sign any loans.  Don't give her any money except for what she needs for food.  Reality will strike eventually.

surfhb

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Re: Daughter problem
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2017, 04:59:45 PM »
Give her a break.....shes an adult   How many 18 year old have you ever met that DO NOT have their heads firmly planted inside their asses?

FINate

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Re: Daughter problem
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2017, 05:03:26 PM »
So, don't co-sign any loans.  Don't give her any money except for what she needs for food.  Reality will strike eventually.

I second this. If you have a partner/spouse make sure you're on the same page. If either of you co-sign student loans she will drag you into her likely future financial problems.

Pay for her tuition and what you think is reasonable for food and lodging. Let her know that she needs to get a job to earn money for whatever else she wants to do/buy. Explain that if her grades fall below <some_threshold> that you'll stop paying. This may seem harsh, but it's foolish to spend 10s of thousands of dollars for a degree if she's not making reasonable progress. Paying for your daughter's college education is not an obligation, it's a generous gift. She is asking for more autonomy which is part of growing up, but she needs to feel the full consequences of her choices. Welcome to adulting. I would explain to her that student loans may follow her around the rest of her life (maybe pull up some of sob stories making the rounds in the media), but beyond that there's not much you can do about her choices.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 05:05:30 PM by FINate »

ronwelmsy

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Re: Daughter problem
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2017, 06:09:26 PM »
My uncle's kids as well as my other relatives went to Ivy league schools and highly accomplished professionals. My uncle was a mustachain, who I learned from. He never had rules with the kids but they were very disciplined. All the kids are financially independent and still live a mustachain life style. As far as my daughter is concerned, she has a car to use and not restricted to go anywhere, we just want to know where she's going. We gave her some freedom but not complete independence. I don't know where it all came from that she wanted to be independent otherwise she would run-away, live in shelter or with friends. I'm at a loss as to why this is all happening. Everything was fine when she went to school. Even with her grades, we told her everything was fine and she should just focus on the next year. We're not demanding that she get A's and B's but of course, that's what we hope she gets. The courses that she took overwhelmed her. She took two very difficult classes in the same semester. But she studied very hard. I just wonder if her trying so hard in school that now she thinks she can do what ever she wants to do now that it's summer.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 07:39:37 PM by ronwelmsy »

joonifloofeefloo

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Re: Daughter problem
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2017, 06:49:57 PM »
ronwelmsy, it's hard to know why it's happening.

Be assured that none of it is bad. It is quite common, and quite reasonable.
Some people get wriggly around age 12-14, some around 16-18, some 18-20, and some never.

I was raised with lots of siblings.
One appeared very "good", obedient, didn't stray in any sense, did exactly as our parents always hoped.

I was the opposite, and was long gone by age 17.
Another appeared "good" and obedient and got great grades, but was drinking heavily at age 14.
The others were more in the middle of the spectrum.

Each person has a different personality, some chafe at intervention earlier, others later, others never.
It doesn't mean you're doing something wrong.

Just know your boundaries -like you're doing- and let her know what you are willing to offer and on what terms -like you're doing. And then let her do her thing.

Probably all of us parents wish/hope our kids will be like my "perfect" sibling -so easy to raise, parents always knew where he was, financially careful and savvy, happy to live at home and follow the rules there all the way through graduation from college, married perfectly, always "on track."

But my parents only got one of those :)
And try as I might, I think I'm going to get 0/1 of those, heh.

Would you be interesting in books re: parenting in these transitional years? At the very least, you'd hear about lots of other parents feeling and wondering similarly, and wondering how to navigate this transition.

FINate

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Re: Daughter problem
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2017, 07:36:38 PM »
My uncle's kids as well as my other relatives went to Ivy league schools and highly accomplished professionals. My uncle was a mustachain, who I learned from. He never had rules with the kids but they were very disciplined. All the kids are financially independent and still live a mustachain life style. As far as my daughter, she has a car to use and not restricted to go anywhere, we just want to know where she's going. We gave her some freedom but not complete independence. I told her that if she wants that if she wants complete independence, she would live in a shelter, or stay with a friend. I'm at a loss as to why this is all happening. Everything was fine when she went to school. Even with her grades, we told her everything was fine and she should just focus on the next year. We're not demanding that she get A's and B's but of course, that's what we hope she gets. The courses that she took overwhelmed her. She took two very difficult classes in the same semester. But she studied very hard. I just wonder if her trying so hard in school that now she thinks she can do what ever she wants to do now that it's summer.

Ah...I think there are few issues to unpack here.

1. Her transition into quasi-adulthood and expectation of day-to-day autonomy.
2. Her desire to live a non-mustachian lifestyle.
3. Her (possible) expectation that you finance said lifestyle.

She's been away at college sorta living on her own, mostly making her own decisions. So of course (1) is happening. I don't think you can expect her to return to the way things were before she went off to school. IMO, you need to let this go and let her come and go without worrying about it or requiring that she inform you of her plans. I just don't think it's a battle worth fighting. You may also look at other areas where she should take on more responsibility...think of it as ways of transitioning her more fully into adulthood.

As much as it may bug you, you have no control over (2). All you can do is hope though experience that she matures out of it.

That said, IMO you shouldn't enable (2) buy financing it (3). You will be frustrated as she wastes money that you've provided, and it reinforces unrealistic lifestyle expectations. Again, have her get a job and finance her own lifestyle beyond the basics you've decided to cover. She may eventually come to realize that she's working too hard for money just to waste it, though again you don't have any control over this.

If you do decide to subsidize her lifestyle now be prepared for the expectation this is likely to set going forward into adulthood.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 09:22:43 PM by FINate »

okits

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Re: Daughter problem
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2017, 09:15:52 PM »
I'm at a loss as to why this is all happening.
I just wondered why this never happened with my uncles 6 kids from 2 different wives. As well as my other relatives, it doesn't seem that they had these kinds of problems with their kids.
If I only knew that this would be the outcome, I wouldn't have had any kids. It's not worth it. I'm a nervous wreck right now.

Your daughter might be one of the kids who doesn't respond well to being compared to other people's offspring, or she might harbour negative feelings if she suspects you regret (now, or regretted in the past) having her as your child.  I can only guess from your comments here, but she might be trying to get away from your values or from interacting with you (there are much less hurtful ways to convey that you have parameters that go with your financial support than to say that she'll live in a shelter if she wants more independence).

If you struggle to see her as an autonomous adult while still a student (whose schooling is paid by you), I suggest she live apart from you the entire year while a student (her summer jobs pay for her room/apartment, food, and hobbies).  Cut off the free schooling if she doesn't get the grades she needs to achieve her professional goals, but otherwise, be open to a situation where she earns more independence through hard work and responsibility.  I imagine it will stress you less if you don't have to watch her hang out with her friends all the time, buy unnecessary stuff, or have romantic relationships.  Once she's graduated and employed, you'll have had time to adjust to her being an adult and she'll have had time to learn responsibility with life and money.

Don't co-sign any loans.  You're already paying for school.  She pays for any of the nice-to-haves.

Mezzie

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Re: Daughter problem
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2017, 10:32:51 PM »
It's very generous for you to pay her tuition. You do not have to co-sign for loans. What she should be doing is applying for every scholarship under the sun, of course.

She is working and can continue to do so if she wants to have more spending money. I worked my way through college (more than full time work and classes); it's doable. If she tries that for a semester or two, she may better appreciate what you're offering. My parents couldn't afford to help me in any way except providing a rent-free place to live (which I moved out of after two years despite the great deal; we needed space).

She's 18. Her relationship with you is different now. I really don't see why in the summer she wouldn't hang out with friends after working all day... I know I did. Heck, I managed time for friends even during the school year with my crazy work and school schedule. That's just part of college and being a young adult. If she's using your car, you have a right to know/control when that car will be in use, of course, but don't be surprised if she wants to spend some of her money on buying her own car. If you live in an area with decent public transit, though, she should be able to get around without that. I didn't have a car (or a license) my first year of college; even after I got both, I still often used the bus because college parking sucks. As far as relationships... good luck having any influence over that at all.

Regarding grades: She may be studying hard, but it's possible she isn't studying smart. I've found my high school students have to be explicitly taught college study skills. If she hasn't mastered those yet, she should avail herself of the tutoring and other support available on campus, usually arranged through the library or learning center. One hour of quality studying easily trumps several hours of disorganized "studying".

It's possible your reaction here is more ranty than what you've expressed to your daughter. I hope that's the case. If not, I would not be surprised if she distances herself from you.

pk_aeryn

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Re: Daughter problem
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2017, 10:55:48 PM »
Quote
is that boys are going to start to come around and I would prefer she wait to get into a serious relationship until after she graduates from college.

Boys probably have and are coming around.  I know it's worry and hard to watch your daughter socialize when her grades could be better, but learning social skills and dating is important to learning how to interact with the world.  It's scary, as a parent, but do you really want her to have no skills at dating and relationships until she's 22-25 and done with school? That's also not healthy, if it's not her own choice.

former player

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Re: Daughter problem
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2017, 02:46:15 AM »
Quote
is that boys are going to start to come around and I would prefer she wait to get into a serious relationship until after she graduates from college.

Boys probably have and are coming around.  I know it's worry and hard to watch your daughter socialize when her grades could be better, but learning social skills and dating is important to learning how to interact with the world.  It's scary, as a parent, but do you really want her to have no skills at dating and relationships until she's 22-25 and done with school? That's also not healthy, if it's not her own choice.
I agree with this: if you want your daughter to (eventually) have stable relationships and perhaps children, it is a good idea for her to put some learning about relationships in at this stage.  If you say "no relationships" you are essentially infantilising her, and making her transition to adulthood more difficult.  In some cases I've seen, overbearing parental control of relationships early on ends up preventing the child from ever making that successful transition.  The thing to do here is not to put on a prohibition but to give her the information she needs to explore this part of the world safely.  That means information on 1) the practicalities on the physical side (contraception, STDs) 2) the safety side (how to recognise unsafe situations and potentially abusive relationships) and 3) the emotional side (learning about her own and her partner's emotions and how to handle them).

Also, don't assume its just boys you need to worry about, unless she's told you so.


Lis

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Re: Daughter problem
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2017, 08:34:19 AM »
Not a parent, but I'm guessing I was more recently 18 and a college kid than many of the commentators here. So I'm going to try to give you some advice based on her perspective.

- Freshman year, I declared a math major. I was going to be a mathematician or an actuary. I had it all planned out. My dad, who wanted to be a scientist/mathematician but for a ridiculous amount of family reasons was 'forced' not to, was thrilled. You know what I really sucked at? Theoretical math. Listen, I kicked ass in high school calculus and aced my first couple math classes my first semester. I was used to seeing straight As (with maybe the occasional B+) in high school, so it felt like a punch to the stomach when I got my first C. Worse than that, even. And, when you've spent so much time thinking "I want to be X when I grow up," then find out that you're just not that good at it, regardless on how much you studied, it throws you through a complete loop. Well shit, now what was I going to be? It is absolutely ridiculous to expect an 18 year old to know exactly what she wants to do with her life. Sure, there are some kids who have known what they've wanted to be when they grow up since they were little and achieve that goal. The rest of us? Not so much. I'm now in a field that I hadn't even heard of in college.

- College kids are in a really weird place... the world expects them to be adults, but are they? Listen, from 18-22, I thought I was an adult, I was independent, I was on my own. Sure, you have the freedom to stay out until 3am if that's what you want to do, but with parents or loans paying tuition, room and board, dining hall, etc., college kids don't have the responsibility to "pay rent" or "go grocery shopping" (for more than snacks or treats). She thinks she's an adult, you know better, and there's conflict. It happens. Again, not a parent, but I have to imagine nearly all parents have pulled their hair out because their "kid" is acting like an adult, but isn't fully an adult yet. It's normal. She's just as frustrated too.

- Don't compare her to your cousins, or other college kids, at least in front of her. She's trying to figure out who she is now, and you saying or implying "You should be more like Joe," or "Why can't you act more like Jane" is going to cause resentment, and possibly for her to act out. I was one of the 'good' kids, and yet I still wanted to act out against how my parents thought I was. It's all an 18 year old trying to figure out her identity. It's normal.

- She's only been exposed to the mustachian lifestyle - so how does she know the repercussions of spending all of her money? Does she know the excitement of buying something new fades? Has she ever been in a position where she spent her money on something needlessly then couldn't afford something important (or for that matter, couldn't afford something in all, regardless of importance?). My biggest fear, when graduating college, is that I had never truly 'fucked up,' so did that mean I could never fuck up in my adult life? And if I did, how would I know how I could respond? Let her make mistakes. It'll kill you to watch, but she's gotta do it. Let me ask you this - have you never made a mistake? I know, it's different because she's your daughter, and you want what's best for her, and you think you know what's best. But the truth is, letting her make the mistakes and growing from them is what's best for her. And when she makes a mistake, support her the best you can. It doesn't necessarily mean financially, but listen, offer advice if she asks, guide her gently... for the love of god please do not say "told you so," because she'll never tell you anything again. (By the way, when life threw me a huge "fuck you" a few months after college, my parents were my rock, and I will be forever grateful for their love and support during that time.)

- The relationship stuff - you officially get no say. Listen, stick yourself in denial if that's what you want or need, but by attempting to control the way she uses her heart and her body, you're telling her it's acceptable for someone else, especially another man, to dictate that to her too. "But I'm her father, it's different!" Nope, no it's not. And yes, this is from experience.

- Two financial bits here - are you 100% open with how much college costs, and does she fully understand that? The first half you have control over, but (see above for making mistakes) the second half you don't. I had *no* idea how much my expensive 4 year private college cost. My parents, my dad especially, wanted me to go to the best school possible, with the best education and best experience. I turned down a cheaper school that was offering money in favor of my fancy college that offered me none. Now listen, I had a great experience there, loved it, would recommend, but it left both my parents and me loans. I had no idea how much my parents had saved before college, I had no idea how many loans they took out (still don't, really). My dad's goal was to put me through my four years with me being debt free, and he was heartbroken that I ended up having to take out a loan to finish my last year (I was in college during the recession, and he had lost his job for a while). I didn't understand any of this then. It wasn't until I started paying off my loans that I realized how much they sucked. So if your daughter is gung-ho about taking out loans, explain to her what that means, how much she'll be liable for and when. She still might not get it. But that's part of growing up.

Tell her you love her. Tell her you'll support her with your love no matter what. Tell her if she wants to switch from nursing to something else, that's okay, and you can help her figure it out if that's what she wants. (And I do mean tell her all this, using words. I *knew* my parents were supportive of my switching majors/figuring out what I wanted to do, but when my dad actually said it, it was the biggest relief and made me feel so much more comfortable talking to him about it.) Figure out financially what you will be willing to do, and tell her the parameters. Tell her you'll help her figure out how to get a loan and help her apply if that's what she really wants, but you won't cosign (if that's what you want).

Sibley

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Re: Daughter problem
« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2017, 09:10:12 AM »
Ron, your daughter is no longer a child. You cannot treat her like one.

College is a time when two big things happen:

1. Parents start to learn what kind of parent's they've been.
2. Kids start to learn what kind of adults they'll be.

Everyone flails around, all that varies is how much and how visibly. She needs freedom from you to learn for herself. Bite your tongue, take up meditation, whatever it takes - but step back and let her figure it out. You can offer advice (IF she asks). You can define boundaries on what you'll do (provide $x for tuition, etc) and allow in your home (not cosigning on loans, no boys overnight, etc). But you can't control her. And if you somehow do, then you'll be abusing her.

Cautionary tale:
There was a woman that I went to college with. Her parents were very strict, and there were elements of abuse intertwined. When she got to college, it was literally the first time she'd ever had the freedom to make her own decisions. And she rebelled, majorly. She was one of the biggest partyiers in the school. Her parents were appalled, and tried to control her. She rebelled more. This continued for all of college. While she did a lot of partying, she was determined to be independent, so she got good grades. She got a job offer for after graduation. It was on the other side of the country from her parents. Right after graduation, she moved and cut off all contact with her parents. I lost track of her after a few years, but I saw her again at reunion recently. She's built a happy, successful life, full of friends. Her career is great, she owns a home, and is married with a dog. She is speaking to her mother, a little bit. She'll call for birthday, mother's day, and Christmas, and talk for 10-15 minutes. She will not speak to her father, and hasn't for 10 years. Her parents do not have her home address or direct phone number. They do not know who she works for. She's never told them that she's married. And she has zero interest in changing the status quo.

Yeah, she's an extreme example, but there were many other classmates of mine that definitely have cooled their relationships with their parents because the parents could not accept that they weren't kids anymore.

Ann

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Re: Daughter problem
« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2017, 09:52:38 AM »
I don't think taking out student loans is the worst case scenerio.  I lived at home the first two years at community college, which I paid for with my fast food job money and with scholarship.  My parents paid for the first 1-2 semester of a state university.   Then I decided I didn't want my parents to be burdened by paying for my college, so I took out loans and paid for the last year-and-a-half of undergraduate and for all 4 years for graduate school.  I have over $100,000 in school loans.

And that motivated and focused me to read personal finance blogs and books.  I don't know if I would have found MMM if I hadn't taken those student loans.  Luckily, my schooling paid off and I have a nice career. 

I don't know if my parents know how much student loans I took.  I needed some of their information for FAFSA, but I didn't need their permission.  I'm glad they didn't know . . . they would have worried.  Taking those loans made them MY responsibility and I found MY own solutions. 

This is not a  universal story, I realize.  It would have been different had I  a different personality, career, and just different luck.  I just want you to know their is at least one person out their who feels that taking a lot of student debt turned out to be a GOOD decision for her.  It made me a BETTER financial manager.

ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

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Re: Daughter problem
« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2017, 10:01:07 AM »
Boys aren't necessarily a bad thing. I met my wife when I was 17.

I think you have some legitimate concerns but you also need to chill way out. Easy for me to say with my daughters being 3 and 6months x2.

golden1

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Re: Daughter problem
« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2017, 10:37:52 AM »
http://www.katsandogz.com/onchildren.html

“Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of life’s longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you they belong not to you.

You seem to see your children as reflections of yourself, but they are independent humans with their own thoughts and desires.  Give them love, give them guidance, but you can’t make them share your values as adults.

Dee18

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Re: Daughter problem
« Reply #30 on: June 16, 2017, 11:11:21 AM »
Lis, what great suggestions! 

RetiredAt63

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Re: Daughter problem
« Reply #31 on: June 16, 2017, 12:22:52 PM »
Lots of good stuff above.

My Dad, the first university graduate in the family and from a strict teetotaler prairie family, gave me 3 pieces of advice when I left home for University, just turned 18:

1.  Don't smoke.  He said it for health and financial reasons.

2.  Don't get drunk.  Note he didn't say don't drink, he said don't get drunk.  He knew drinking is a normal part of university life, but it needs to not be taken to excess.  It is also part of after-graduation life, something we all need to know how to deal with all our lives.

3.  Don't get pregnant.  This was the one that shocked me - my !!!FATHER!!! thought I might have !!sex!!?  At that point I had not done much dating, so I was looking forward to doing a bit more dating at university.  But actual sex?  Wow!  But once I heard about girls who dropped out of university to get married because they "had" to get married, I understood where he was coming from.


Of course I had to keep my grades up.  I paid as much of my expenses as I could and he paid the rest. 

Very wise man, my father.  An engineer, btw.





nobody123

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Re: Daughter problem
« Reply #32 on: June 16, 2017, 02:13:31 PM »
Lots of good stuff above.

My Dad, the first university graduate in the family and from a strict teetotaler prairie family, gave me 3 pieces of advice when I left home for University, just turned 18:

1.  Don't smoke.  He said it for health and financial reasons.

2.  Don't get drunk.  Note he didn't say don't drink, he said don't get drunk.  He knew drinking is a normal part of university life, but it needs to not be taken to excess.  It is also part of after-graduation life, something we all need to know how to deal with all our lives.

3.  Don't get pregnant.  This was the one that shocked me - my !!!FATHER!!! thought I might have !!sex!!?  At that point I had not done much dating, so I was looking forward to doing a bit more dating at university.  But actual sex?  Wow!  But once I heard about girls who dropped out of university to get married because they "had" to get married, I understood where he was coming from.


Of course I had to keep my grades up.  I paid as much of my expenses as I could and he paid the rest. 

Very wise man, my father.  An engineer, btw.

My dad gave me similar advice when I went off to college.  He said:
1. Don't flunk out
2. Don't knock some girl up and ruin your life
3. Don't waste all of your money on beer

I never had a curfew growing up (only my parents' cars did), but when I got home after my freshman year my dad tried to institute a bunch of rules after I was staying out until 2 or 3 AM almost every night.  I just ignored him and once he saw that I was still going to work, saving money, and not on drugs after a month of being at home, he lightened up.  We got along fine after that.  He even co-signed my car loan the next summer, which was the biggest vote of confidence he could have given me at the time.

Frankly, as others have said, you need to give her space and the ability to make mistakes without being judged.  I would draw the line at co-signing student loans for the purpose of paying for consumerist wants, though, or any disrespectful behavior toward you and your spouse.  I'm sure as your relationship evolves, you'll eventually get to a happy medium.  She's probably just testing your limits with the newfound confidence of a student who survived their first year away from home.

begood

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Re: Daughter problem
« Reply #33 on: June 16, 2017, 03:17:03 PM »
You might check out Grown and Flown. It's a website specifically for parents of 15-25 year olds.

I have a 15 year old daughter who is spreading her wings in age-appropriate ways that still make me pull my hair out sometimes. In our case, it's often about plans she's made with friends without consulting her car service (aka ME).

Unless she's in danger of dropping out, I wouldn't worry about her grades. Grades get you into college. They *might* play a role in her first job, but not necessarily. The degree is what matters. You know what they call the person who finished last in his or her class in medical school? "Doctor."

She will mature dramatically over the next three years. I read a great analogy that shows teens as swimmers and parents as the pool wall. Sometimes she will swim to you, and she needs you to be there when she does. Sometimes she will push off from you, and she needs you to be a solid foundation for her to launch from.




ronwelmsy

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Re: Daughter problem
« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2017, 03:32:29 PM »
Thanks for all your stories and advice, I value all of your opinions. I just have to say that I've seen parents with loose rules, if any, and it didn't turn out well. The time and money involve in this is big.  Four years is not a long time to commit to this. Lastly,  I just want to fulfill my obligation to her and if she resents me later it wont bother me one bit.   
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 03:41:59 PM by ronwelmsy »

RetiredAt63

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Re: Daughter problem
« Reply #35 on: June 16, 2017, 04:32:16 PM »
But how will you feel if she kicks off so hard that she is gone?  Really gone?

Loose rules - kids need the happy medium between parents who are controlling and parents who let them do whatever they want.  You haven't really said what your rules are.  But she is at the age where young adults can start seeing the consequences of their actions.  Her curfew, for example, should be her own good sense saying she needs 7 hours sleep to function well at her job.  If she keeps coming to work without those 7 hours, she will eventually get fired.  You don't need to be the heavy enforcer, the world will be now.

House rules are for the comfort of those living there.  So not so much, "be in by midnight", as "if you are coming in after everyone else is asleep, be quiet and don't wake anyone up."    If she was in residence at school, she should be well used to house rules like that.  Dorms have quiet hours and rules so everyone can get along.  Roommate situations too.

You might look at the Captain Awkward archives.  There are a surprising number of people who have cut off all or almost all contact with their family of origin.  Or with one parent.

PS  Went back to your first post and saw this: "I felt that I should have never let her go to college to be influenced by friends".  She has been influenced by the world around her all her life.  That includes her friends.  It is just becoming more obvious, now that she has more control of where she spends her free time.

« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 04:36:19 PM by RetiredAt63 »

okits

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Re: Daughter problem
« Reply #36 on: June 16, 2017, 06:24:13 PM »
Thanks for all your stories and advice, I value all of your opinions. I just have to say that I've seen parents with loose rules, if any, and it didn't turn out well. The time and money involve in this is big.  Four years is not a long time to commit to this.  Lastly,  I just want to fulfill my obligation to her and if she resents me later it wont bother me one bit.

If you think the advice you've received is too permissive, remember that what you're doing right now isn't working.  So you'll keep doing what you're already doing anyway, or try even harder to control your daughter?

You sound very wedded to the idea that your way is the right way.  Bookmark this thread and reread it if there's a time in the future where you are still having relationship problems with your daughter.  You've received a lot of insightful, thoughtful feedback from people who are genuinely trying to help your family.  In the future you may be ready to open your mind to it.

Laura33

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Re: Daughter problem
« Reply #37 on: June 16, 2017, 06:34:16 PM »
Thanks for all your stories and advice, I value all of your opinions. I just have to say that I've seen parents with loose rules, if any, and it didn't turn out well. The time and money involve in this is big.  Four years is not a long time to commit to this. Lastly,  I just want to fulfill my obligation to her and if she resents me later it wont bother me one bit.

Confirmation bias.  I can just as easily and accurately say that I have seen parents with strict rules where it did not turn out well, and parents with loose rules where it turned out fine.  Like, say, me:  there is no better feeling than knowing that your parents have enough faith in you to let you go.

But this is all beside the point anyway.  The flaw in your logic is that you are assuming you still have the power to make the rules, and the right to expect her to abide by them, because she is a child and you are the adult responsible for her.  You don't, because she is not.  She is 18.  All you have left is the ability to persuade through logic, common courtesy, and the respect you have earned through your treatment of her for the past 18 years. 

With This Herring

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Re: Daughter problem
« Reply #38 on: June 16, 2017, 07:08:03 PM »
It sounds like you have primarily taught your daughter frugality and money management, but not necessarily independence. 

Quote
I just have to say that I've seen parents with loose rules, if any, and it didn't turn out well.

I was always a generally responsible kid.  But, my parents helped me to learn that.  They did their best to introduce adult freedoms throughout high school, before college even started.  So, if I was out at a party related to a high school club, I didn't have a curfew.  I was getting good grades, managing my own study time, holding a part-time job, and was reliable.  There were rules, but they were gradually changed from my parents' rules for me to my rules for myself as I became older/more mature and understood the logical reason for what had previously been "because Mom and Dad said so."  So, my parents hadn't been requiring 8 hours sleep each school night for their own peace and quiet, but because I actually learned better on a full night's rest.  I am guessing this is the approach your uncle took with his kids.

From what you've written, it seems like your daughter has gone from 24/7 parental supervision to the unwatched world of college.  This is a HUGE transition.  It is going to take your daughter a while to get used to it, especially when in the summer you are expecting to have "input into her activities."  Of COURSE she is going to rebel at that.  Spending time with her friends after work (work which isn't pure fun time, no matter what you may think) is completely reasonable.  Her staying out late hours when she is young and can handle little sleep for a few days, then sleeping past noon on days off is completely reasonable.

You have mentioned that you wish you hadn't let her go off to college because you don't like this "rebelling" (which actually seems pretty mild).  Have you thought about the alternative?  The one where your daughter stays dependent on you and your guidance well into adulthood?  I know a man in his mid-sixties who has only ever lived with his parents.  He holds a professional job, but that is all he does.  He spends most of his hours at that job and has probably only been on three dates in his life.  His parents were controlling, and it ended up crippling him.  I know a second man who is only just coming untied from his mother's apron strings and starting to date in his mid-fifties.  I know you don't want these paths for your daughter.

Also, just a warning:  Your daughter may have (probably has already) tried alcohol.  She may have gotten drunk.  Depending on your country, this is not strictly legal, but that doesn't stop it.  I would suggest that you and your spouse break out a bottle of wine/six-pack of beer some night when she is home for supper and has no evening plans and offer her a glass/bottle (which should be legal, with family in the family home...but I am not a lawyer).  Tell her that, for the first few times she drinks, and at least the first few times she drinks to get drunk, you recommend that she do it in the company of a small group of close friends.  It is way better for her to learn how alcohol affects her in this mostly-safe, semi-controlled situation than at a wild party.  Tell her that you've realized that you are trying to be too strict, and you will try to loosen up.  Then act on it.

+1 for everyone saying that it is better for her to have a serious relationship or a few during college.  It will not help her to enter the dating scene for the first time after graduation and be completely ignorant of many current dating norms that everyone else takes for granted.  If you tell her no boyfriend, she will just have one (or a girlfriend, whatever) and not tell you.  Wouldn't you rather know this kid's face and name?

If your daughter still wants to be in medicine, you might suggest to her (suggest, not mandate) that for the next couple summers she tries to get some sort of job at a hospital.  It would probably help her resume, and you would probably be less annoyed if she were working a job in her intended field before spending her summer nights with friends.

Also, something my parents did for us kids:  No matter how late it was or what we had done or where we were, we could always call them to come get us.  I don't know that any of us ever needed it, but it was certainly nice to have.

AliEli

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Re: Daughter problem
« Reply #39 on: June 16, 2017, 07:45:35 PM »
As a nurse... do you want her to get good marks, or be a good nurse at the end of her course?  I've been an RN for a long time and an educator for part of that too.  In my opinion, part of being a good nurse is knowing who you are as a person and having a strong sense of independence.  How else does a new nurse summon the wherewithal to question a silly order from a superior or have the resilience to manage the emotionally challenging things we come into contact with every day? Having a strong group of friends is essential to managing when work is difficult. You can support her creating these networks as much as you are supporting her university grades to become a nurse.

Also, her choice of career will influence her spending habits.  I know for myself, I do sometimes having to spend money on "self care" to an extent I wouldn't if I had chosen another career. If she is going on placements, her desire to spend may not only be about what her friends are doing?

 

RetiredAt63

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Re: Daughter problem
« Reply #40 on: June 16, 2017, 09:00:46 PM »
Also, something my parents did for us kids:  No matter how late it was or what we had done or where we were, we could always call them to come get us.  I don't know that any of us ever needed it, but it was certainly nice to have.

I would suggest that you and your spouse break out a bottle of wine/six-pack of beer some night when she is home for supper and has no evening plans and offer her a glass/bottle (which should be legal, with family in the family home...but I am not a lawyer).  Tell her that, for the first few times she drinks, and at least the first few times she drinks to get drunk, you recommend that she do it in the company of a small group of close friends.

I have done the party pickup for DD.  Party she was not sure about but went with a girlfriend, quite a distance from us.  She called, I picked her up, told her I was glad she called me to come get her and glad that she trusted me to come.  No fuss.

This is good re introducing your daughter to alcohol.  We had wine with dinner for special occasions while I was growing up.  This gave me a cultural expectation that alcohol was to be enjoyed as part of an overall experience, not to get blasted on. 

Lis

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Re: Daughter problem
« Reply #41 on: June 17, 2017, 06:40:00 AM »
Lastly,  I just want to fulfill my obligation to her and if she resents me later it wont bother me one bit.

You're putting your ego in front of the well being of your daughter.

You want to say "I did X, Y, and Z for her, and at the end of the day, she failed and I wash my hands of it." That's pretty shitty, tbh.

What is your obligation to her that you must fulfill?

Mezzie

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Re: Daughter problem
« Reply #42 on: June 17, 2017, 07:21:09 AM »
I'm curious about that as well.

If you promised to pay for college, then you should keep that promise. Unless you included a bunch of "ifs" to that statement when you made it (e.g., "I promise to pay for college if you stay single and come home by 8pm and don't hang out with friends"), then you really can't start adding conditions now. If she wants to spend more, then she's going to have to either work during the school year or she'll very quickly learn about credit card debt and how much it sucks since it looks like other loans will be hard to obtain. For some people, that is a lesson that has to be learned by experience, unfortunately.

I'll add that for some people, working during school adds structure to their day that forces them to plan study time rather than procrastinate. She doesn't have to work full time, but work could actually improve her grades, as odd as that may sound.

Mostly, this thread makes me sad. Let go. She doesn't belong to you.

GizmoTX

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Re: Daughter problem
« Reply #43 on: June 17, 2017, 07:38:24 AM »
OP, by age 18, you've already baked the cake, so to speak. Strict rules are appropriate for young children; they should be able to handle more responsibility & looser rules as they approach adulthood. Trying to tighten up now will drive you apart. However, you are not at all obligated to keep financially supporting an adult child; when not at school, she should be working full time & household rules of courtesy still apply.

As long as you are supplying tuition and/or room & board, grades do matter -- a B average should be the minimum, IMO. Employers as well as advanced schools do look at transcripts for graduates. Do not co-sign or make any loans.

My father did the heavy handed curfew bit during my summers home during college. I was a good kid, didn't fight him, but worked the 4-midnight shift when I wouldn't see him much, married after my junior year (to a graduating senior), & moved out of state the next day.


stashgrower

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Re: Daughter problem
« Reply #44 on: June 17, 2017, 08:23:10 AM »
+1 controlling the situation won't help. She's 18 and independent (or working towards). I agree that attempting to maintain strict rules will only push her away or stop her from learning through life lessons. Let go of what you want, aside from common adult and shared-home courtesies, and let her grow.

MrsPete

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Re: Daughter problem
« Reply #45 on: June 18, 2017, 10:13:09 AM »
So I have been telling my daughter(18 yo) about living a mustachian for 13 years even before we found out about mustachian. I have been living being mustachian even before I found this forum.  I am just using the word mustachian. Anyway she understands it.  I told her that if she finish college and become independent she can do what she wants as it is her own money. Last semester, her first year in college she lived in the dorm.  Now she is back from college for the summer her personality change 180.  She wants to go out and spend her money like her friends.  Wants to buy a car using her savings and getting a cell phone service.  She has a prepaid $100 phone.  She said she doesnt care if she takes on student loan and she will take as many as she needs to live like her friends.   I have talk to her about not living like this as this will be very difficult.  I told her without us she can't take a loan.  I am at a lost.  I felt that I should have never let her go to college to be influenced by friends.  What to do about this situation?
Multiple thoughts:

- Give in on the phone thing.  Phones ARE their lives and even their professors and the university itself communicate through phones.  Show her you're willing to bend ... somewhat through the phone thing.

- She's told you she's willing to take on loans ... sit down and talk math with her.  Look at her likely salary after college (don't neglect taxes) and look at how much of her future salary would go to repay those loans.  Help her understand that taking on debt means she's already spending money she hasn't yet earned.  Since "consuming" seems to be attractive to her, help her understand that loans could mean moving home after college instead of having her own apartment ... or having an apartment instead of buying her first home ... or driving a used car instead of a new one.  Smart kids respond to math. 


Her grades are average,3b's and 2c's.  She's studying to be a nurse but because of competitiveness of the field, she has to almost ace her core classes. She has tried real hard to get good grades, but they are difficult and she has fallen short. We support her in changing her degree and she is looking at alternatives but she wants to be in the health care field.
Okay, you're not going to like this, but it's truthful:  She's not going to be a nurse.  My oldest just graduated with a nursing degree, and here's how it works:  Around February of her sophomore year, your daughter's going to need to officially apply for a spot in the nursing department.  At my daughter's mid-tier state school, about 150 people applied and 44 were accepted.  The 44 number was set in stone because that's how many spots they had available for Clinicals (time in hospitals, nursing homes, rehab centers, specialty medical areas ... time where the student nurses actually care for patients).  In her first three semesters my daughter had one B and one B+, everything else was an A ... and she was average /middle-of-the-road for the students who were accepted into the program ... incidentally, 40 nurses graduated two years later /40 nurses had jobs waiting for them.  With 3 Bs and 2 Cs, even if your daughter earns straight As for the next two semesters, she's not going to be competative with the other applicants.  A lot of kids don't quite understand this; one guy on my daughter's hall actually disappeared ... yes, disappeared ... when he was rejected from the program. 

Options, if she really wants to stay in nursing:  Switch to a community college or an in-hospital program.  These programs train RNs in two years, and they come out very well prepared for the work force ... she can later do an RN to BSN program, which means picking up her general credits later, and her B and C grades would transfer in one of those programs. 

Other options:  Look into non-nursing health care options.  For example, Radiology or Respitory Therapy.  These programs are less stringent than nursing. 

Obviously.  And she feels she had a year of being an adult and is now back under your thumb (my interpretation of her feelings, not my feeling). 
Yeah, I can remember it being tough to come home for summers. 

With our kids, we've laid down the rules about what we will /won't allow ... which is still our right because it's our house, and we really haven't had any problems.  We insist that they tell us if they won't be home for dinner /will be out late ... but we come at it from a courtesy viewpoint; that is, we want to know when you won't be home for dinner because we don't want to cook too much /wait for you; we will worry if we expect you at 6:00 and you're not home by 7:00.  They've had no problem buying into the idea that Adults Cooperate.  We don't tell them that they can't go out, etc. 

At the same time, they recognize and appreciate that they aren't completely independent yet in college; that is, we are paying their car insurance and phones, and we cover them on our health insurance.  They recognize that they're in a quasi-adult state of existence. 

Ah...I think there are few issues to unpack here.

1. Her transition into quasi-adulthood and expectation of day-to-day autonomy.
2. Her desire to live a non-mustachian lifestyle.
3. Her (possible) expectation that you finance said lifestyle.

She's been away at college sorta living on her own, mostly making her own decisions. So of course (1) is happening. I don't think you can expect her to return to the way things were before she went off to school. IMO, you need to let this go and let her come and go without worrying about it or requiring that she inform you of her plans. I just don't think it's a battle worth fighting. You may also look at other areas where she should take on more responsibility...think of it as ways of transitioning her more fully into adulthood.

As much as it may bug you, you have no control over (2). All you can do is hope though experience that she matures out of it.

That said, IMO you shouldn't enable (2) buy financing it (3). You will be frustrated as she wastes money that you've provided, and it reinforces unrealistic lifestyle expectations. Again, have her get a job and finance her own lifestyle beyond the basics you've decided to cover. She may eventually come to realize that she's working too hard for money just to waste it, though again you don't have any control over this.

If you do decide to subsidize her lifestyle now be prepared for the expectation this is likely to set going forward into adulthood.
Excellent analysis of the situation.

Unless she's in danger of dropping out, I wouldn't worry about her grades. Grades get you into college. They *might* play a role in her first job, but not necessarily. The degree is what matters. You know what they call the person who finished last in his or her class in medical school? "Doctor."
That oft-repeated joke ignores the reality that a lot of people who set out to be doctors switched majors after a freshman year that wasn't going to support an advanced degree ... more people failed to get into medical school ... more people left during residency ... so, yeah, the one who finished last is still a doctor ... but the implication that a person can be mediocre during college and still become a doctor isn't true.


RetiredAt63

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Re: Daughter problem
« Reply #46 on: June 18, 2017, 11:26:38 AM »
Other options:  Look into non-nursing health care options.  For example, Radiology or Respitory Therapy.  These programs are less stringent than nursing. 

It may depend on the school.  At my CEGEP the Respiratory and Anesthesia Program was much more difficult to get into than Nursing.  Again, she needs to check things out before changing options.

MrsPete

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Re: Daughter problem
« Reply #47 on: June 18, 2017, 12:04:17 PM »
Other options:  Look into non-nursing health care options.  For example, Radiology or Respitory Therapy.  These programs are less stringent than nursing. 

It may depend on the school.  At my CEGEP the Respiratory and Anesthesia Program was much more difficult to get into than Nursing.  Again, she needs to check things out before changing options.
Anesthesia is a whole different ball game; yes, it's more difficult, but Radiology and Respiratory are easier than general nursing because they "cover less ground". 

Yes, checking out all options -- including the realistic grade requirements -- is a good idea.