Author Topic: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?  (Read 47231 times)

kite

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #150 on: June 03, 2014, 04:49:34 AM »
Why are people whining about a $25,000 student loan debt balance?  I've even seen a number of comments in the media about how that's like debt slavery! That's not a huge burden.   After all, the median new car price is around $32,000 and they get paid off in 7 years or less....
That was my point a few pages back.   This person has a cash flow problem.   It's not the same thing as poverty.

Zamboni

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #151 on: June 03, 2014, 06:37:04 AM »
Dezrah nailed it in page 1 of this thread.

At the most expensive and prestigious schools, engineering programs aside (and we can even have this argument about those) many of the faculty who advise students do not view college as "job training."  Rather, they view it as a chance to become a well rounded person who gains some critical reasoning skills before the student proceeds to graduate/professional school to get real professional training.  In fact, I have many colleagues who are devoted to the ideals of a liberal arts education and love to encourage students to explore fields they've never heard of and pursue whatever catches their eye.  But at the same time, the same colleagues are SHOCKED to read that some graduates actually get jobs right after school without going to grad school.  I kid you not. Just sat in a meeting where someone had collected direct stats showing that a good fraction of undergraduates who major in our discipline (about a third) go straight to work after college.  This did not surprise me, but several of my colleagues had real trouble understanding the concept that NOT ALL of OUR graduates want to continue with 4+ years of additional education after college.  Please remember that most professors have never worked outside of academia, so they've not really even been exposed to the normal job market; my Mom calls professors "hot house flowers," and she's got it exactly right.  And these folks are giving out ADVICE to 18 year olds about what they should do in college.

College is NOT a ticket out of being poor.  That is a myth.  It was never designed that way.  It was designed for the wealthy, not for the poor, and many schools retain this model (especially the prestigious, expensive schools.)  That's part of the reason why family wealth dramatically increases the chances that someone who enters college will actually finish college.  Getting a "book smarts" education beside someone who is wealthy does not make you wealthy.  I wish it did, because dang I had some college friends from loaded families.

lithy

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #152 on: June 03, 2014, 06:43:51 AM »
The first 10 amendments to the Constitution aren't called the Bill of Norms and Laws.  It is called the Bill of Rights.  So we can quibble about whether they are still accurate today, but we can't argue as to whether they are rights.  By definition they are.  When I say I have the right to free speech under the U.S. constitution, that isn't just my opinion on society.  We can argue about what that right entails, the limits that should or should not be applied to the right, but it remains a right until we either write a new constitution or amend the current one.
Yeah, no shit. The constitution is law, and so the rights in the constitution fall into the "laws" category of the two kinds of rights. FFS.

I suppose if you don't believe in the theory of natural rights this post will be pretty much irrelevant to you. 

But for my perspective, the Constitution and Bill of Rights do not even establish rights.  It simply limits the function of government to a strict list of enumerated powers.  All remaining power remains with the people and the states.  If I view all natural rights as variations of the simple rights to life, liberty, and property, the Bill of Rights is in fact a redundancy.  Listing them in the first ten amendments did not GIVE me those rights because there is no language in the Constitution stating that the federal government can take away those rights.  So, I already had my rights and the Bill of Rights just made extra sure that the government through no kind of 'well it doesn't say so' reasoning doesn't attempt to abridge those rights.  Even the 9th amendment makes that clear with its "now just because we listed some, doesn't mean we listed them all" subtext.

But, well, that's just like, my opinion, man.

davisgang90

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #153 on: June 03, 2014, 06:53:20 AM »
Lithy,

This is my view as well.  That's one of the reasons why I take exception to just treating them as laws.  Whether you believe in natural law or not, the Constitution is the bedrock for our country,  any and all laws passed must meet constitutional muster.  Alternatively, we can amend the constitution.

MoneyCat

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #154 on: June 03, 2014, 02:47:37 PM »
Here's an article about an interesting 30 year study of 800 people conducted in Baltimore about poverty and the likelihood of changing social class:  http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2014/06/the-long-shadow-poverty-baltimore-poor-children.  Basically, what the study found was that people who are born into poor families almost always stay poor and social mobility is largely based not on a person's education, but the quality of their family.  The findings make sense in my own situation.  I was successfully able to escape poverty because I had a relatively stable home-life compared to most people dealing with the same difficulties.

grantmeaname

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #155 on: June 03, 2014, 02:56:48 PM »
If someone disagrees with you as to whether something is a fundamental thing that all humans deserve, it's not much of a support to say "well it's a right".
Either:
i) it's the law of the land (e.g., freedom of assembly), in which case you can say "it's the law of the land that all citizens get X", or
ii) it's not the law of the land (e.g., access to broadband), in which case what you're really saying is "Y is a right because I believe that it's a right", which is tautological and gets you nowhere, because they can equally say "it's not a right because I believe that it's not a right".

You're really conflating two different meanings when you say something is a right. One of those things is entirely worthless for discussion (you saying "I believe that access to broadband is a right" does not make me suddenly share that norm if a moment before I disagreed with you).

Dr.Vibrissae

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Re: Is Being Poor Anyone's Fault?
« Reply #156 on: June 04, 2014, 04:47:25 PM »
Please read the Constitution. Please! Those are your only rights
The 9th amendment would seem to disagree with you.