Author Topic: Covid - anyone live with people who still don't social distance or wear masks?  (Read 5415 times)

spartana

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Back at the beginning of the pandemic I started a thread about living with someone who refused to social distance or wear masks. That roommate moved but I'm wondering if people are still dealing with SO, family or roommates they live with who are not practicing social distancing or mask wearing when outside the home. It seems a resurgence of covid in many places is occurring and people are less cautious. If so what do you do about it? Just ignore it and go about your life or something more drastic like live separately?

Eowyn_MI

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Content Warning: This may trigger people who get upset when they hear about folks who are not 'taking the pandemic seriously.'

Spoiler: show
 I (29F) live with my sister (30F) and we have agreed on what is an appropriate level of social distancing and mask wearing for us.  Specifically, we wear masks in all indoor public places like grocery stores and we social distance from complete strangers when walking down the street.  We don't wear masks outdoors at all unless if it is required for a crowded area like a farmer's market.

We do not social distance with any of our friends or family who are comfortable with normal social contact (explicit consent from all concerned parties, of course).  Also, I returned to training BJJ at a gym in the beginning of June 2020.  Training BJJ is probably the exact opposite of social distancing and wearing masks.  As far as I know, no one at the gym has been sick at all.

Pre-covid, I used to do a few more varied social activities in addition to the gym.  Now, my social life is at the gym where we don't wear masks and I rarely talk to or interact with strangers in public anymore.  Wearing a mask really cuts down on normal social behavior with other people.  My sister has found a few activities outside the home where people don't wear masks as well and I encouraged her to do so.
 

ReadySetMillionaire

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Back at the beginning of the pandemic I started a thread about living with someone who refused to social distance or wear masks. That roommate moved but I'm wondering if people are still dealing with SO, family or roommates they live with who are not practicing social distancing or mask wearing when outside the home. It seems a resurgence of covid in many places is occurring and people are less cautious. If so what do you do about it? Just ignore it and go about your life or something more drastic like live separately?

I would question this premise.

Content Warning: This may trigger people who get upset when they hear about folks who are not 'taking the pandemic seriously.'

Spoiler: show
 I (29F) live with my sister (30F) and we have agreed on what is an appropriate level of social distancing and mask wearing for us.  Specifically, we wear masks in all indoor public places like grocery stores and we social distance from complete strangers when walking down the street.  We don't wear masks outdoors at all unless if it is required for a crowded area like a farmer's market.

We do not social distance with any of our friends or family who are comfortable with normal social contact (explicit consent from all concerned parties, of course).  Also, I returned to training BJJ at a gym in the beginning of June 2020.  Training BJJ is probably the exact opposite of social distancing and wearing masks.  As far as I know, no one at the gym has been sick at all.

Pre-covid, I used to do a few more varied social activities in addition to the gym.  Now, my social life is at the gym where we don't wear masks and I rarely talk to or interact with strangers in public anymore.  Wearing a mask really cuts down on normal social behavior with other people.  My sister has found a few activities outside the home where people don't wear masks as well and I encouraged her to do so.
 


Good for you. My experience is basically the exact same. You can take it seriously while also acknowledging that living as close to a relatively normal life as possible is good for your mental, physical, and overall health.

bbqbonelesswing

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I would question this premise.

You sure about that?

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/coronavirus-case-increase-sets-new-u-s-record-rising-over-n1244490

Quote
The U.S. set a record Thursday as the number of new coronavirus cases rose to over 77,000, topping the previous record in July.

Nationwide, 77,640 new cases were reported for the day, up from the previous record of 75,723 on July 29, according to the latest tally compiled by NBC News.

The record-breaking daily tally comes as the total number of coronavirus cases in the country has reached nearly 8.5 million, with 224,280 deaths. There were 921 coronavirus-related deaths reported on Thursday.

Anyway... I just live with my SO and cat, and both are being very responsible. However, many of our immediate family and friends are not. These folks had covid very early on (NJ and NYC) and now think they're invincible, so have resumed most normal activities. Parties, bars, etc.. We are keeping our distance because we have parents who are at high risk. One is diabetic and the other is going through chemo. So, not worth it to expose them. It's annoying and a bit lonely, but worth it in the end to reduce the risk.

Mr. Green

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There is certainly some good news in that we know significantly more about COVID-19 now than we did 6 months ago. For one, doctors are better at treating it so the mortality rate is lower. There is significant evidence that supports high levels of Vitamin D being linked with having a less severe case of COVID. There is also significant evidence that blood types matter. If you have Type O blood, congratulations! You have won this round of natural selection. If you have Type A or AB blood you have lost this one, with general outcomes being worse. Type B folks are the neutral ground. At the same time, there are all the long haulers out there, roughly 1 in 3 according to the CDC who deal with lingering symptoms for months, and some are even having difficulty getting proper medical care because long haul symptoms are still a gray area that not all medical professionals are taking seriously.

Feel free to fact check any of these things if you want to independently verify them. Most folks don't want to contract COVID, but at least if you do outcomes are vastly improved over this spring. Though, if you have a pre-existing condition that's a really tough one. I'm sorry that you're in this position. I can't imagine what I would do.


deborah

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Does your sport have covid19 guidelines? For instance, these are the covid19 guidelines for volleyball in my state (as we have gone over a hundred days without a case, we don’t have rules for masks) -

https://cdn.revolutionise.com.au/site/6vaqjt6qpndobaqr.pdf

The media here is definitely saying that cases are going up in California, unfortunately. Hope you keep well.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2020, 01:13:04 AM by deborah »

Cranky

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Well, as an older person with type A blood and asthma and a spouse who is an actuAl scientist, my general feeling is that if you can’t be respectful of my desire not to get sick, you will not be spending time with me.

GuitarStv

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Also, I returned to training BJJ at a gym in the beginning of June 2020.  Training BJJ is probably the exact opposite of social distancing and wearing masks.  As far as I know, no one at the gym has been sick at all.

Nobody in your gym has had covid yet.  When the first person gets it, every person in the gym will also get it at the same time.  I love BJJ, but there's no possible way to prevent spread of covid while rolling hard (even if it were possible to breathe while wearing masks).  It's going to be close to 100% transmission when it occurs.

Cassie

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So many tough decisions with this virus. We are in our 60’s with a chronic condition each. We exercise and have lost a lot of weight. My 40 year old son had to move in with us and he is now working. Slowly this summer we resumed eating out and seeing a few friends that have been careful.  Our cases are going up and with winter coming meeting outside is no longer a option. We do wear masks and social distance. Some people we know are isolating again.

Hotstreak

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People around me have been locked inside too long, and we are "done" with it.  As a group we are young and healthy, and at very low risk of severe complications from this virus.  I think that as much as possible, the cost of something should be born by the people who benefit from it.  In this case, the benefit of isolation goes to the high risk - the sick, the very old, etc.  Those people should take strong measures to protect themselves, such as isolating or limiting their social group.  That sucks, but if you benefit from it, you pay the cost.  I'm done putting my life on hold.


I started leaning towards this line of thought early summer, but I went all the way in August.  I saw a few family members that are very overweight, and generally unhealthy.  They are very worried about COVID, but are taking no measures to lose weight or clean up their health (I asked).  In the last 6 months they could have made major changes to their personal risk.  Instead they ask the whole world to protect them while they eat junk, smoke, and don't exercise.  These are the people I'm supposed to be protecting?  They're not even protecting themselves.  I have a lot of sympathy for you Spartana, your situation is clearly different, and I hope you find ways to have a fulfilling life during quarantine without exposing yourself to too much risk.

Hotstreak

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To answer your initial post, I'm wearing a mask indoors (as required by law where I live), but not outdoors.  If I walk close by another person, I hold my breath.  My social life is back to normal, which is mostly small gatherings with a couple of friends at a time. 


It's interesting to hear about people doing martial arts again.  I don't roll, but know folks who do and the gyms in my area are restricting partners.  Technically you can only roll with someone you live with, or you best friend or someone you have regular contact with, but in practice you just need to select a partner or two and roll with them.  People aren't rotating partners throughout the class like you normally would.  I do agree that if someone was infected, it would likely spread, just due to the amount of heavy breathing and the relatively closed space.

Eowyn_MI

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Also, I returned to training BJJ at a gym in the beginning of June 2020.  Training BJJ is probably the exact opposite of social distancing and wearing masks.  As far as I know, no one at the gym has been sick at all.

Nobody in your gym has had covid yet.  When the first person gets it, every person in the gym will also get it at the same time.  I love BJJ, but there's no possible way to prevent spread of covid while rolling hard (even if it were possible to breathe while wearing masks).  It's going to be close to 100% transmission when it occurs.

I agree that BJJ is not a good way to prevent covid transmission and we don't wear masks at the gym at all.  In my case, the risk of contracting covid is worth the reward of training. 

An anecdote: One of my coworkers and his son tested negative for covid at the same time as his wife who tested positive for covid.  These three people all live in the same house together.  If one person had covid they all should have got it, right?  Either something got messed up with their tests or perhaps an exposure to covid does not have a 100% chance of infecting someone.

Since I generally don't interact with anyone except at the gym, the risk to the public health is minimal.


expatartist

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An anecdote: One of my coworkers and his son tested negative for covid at the same time as his wife who tested positive for covid.  These three people all live in the same house together.  If one person had covid they all should have got it, right?  Either something got messed up with their tests or perhaps an exposure to covid does not have a 100% chance of infecting someone.

"According to mounting data, as little as 10 percent to 20 percent of people infected with SARS-CoV-2 may be responsible for around 80 percent of transmission. On the flip side, a stunning 70 percent of infected people may not pass the virus to anyone, some data suggests." data referenced in this article https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/06/just-10-20-of-covid-19-cases-behind-80-of-transmission-studies-suggest/

SwordGuy

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Given that anytime I go to Lowes at least 20% of the customers are not wearing masks -- not even pretending to wear masks -- I can guarantdamntee you that there are lots of people in NC who are living with folks who don't follow the CDC guidelines.   


slappy

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Also, I returned to training BJJ at a gym in the beginning of June 2020.  Training BJJ is probably the exact opposite of social distancing and wearing masks.  As far as I know, no one at the gym has been sick at all.

Nobody in your gym has had covid yet.  When the first person gets it, every person in the gym will also get it at the same time.  I love BJJ, but there's no possible way to prevent spread of covid while rolling hard (even if it were possible to breathe while wearing masks).  It's going to be close to 100% transmission when it occurs.

My DH started BJJ this summer too. What great timing right? He actually did get covid. We don't know if it was from the gym. We know that someone tested positive, and then I think one or two others also tested positive, other than my husband. This virus is so strange, and I think that's why people don't take it seriously. My six year old lives with us and didn't test positive. How is that even possible?!?! He shares a room with his brother, who tested positive. I don't get it. Anyway, just sharing one example. We still aren't sure where my DH got it from. For now we are referring to the four year old as patient zero, since his newest hobby is nose picking. We assume he picked it up from a surface and then shoved it up his nose. Kids are gross.

GuitarStv

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Human brains aren't really wired to handle long term problems in a sensible way.  (See also: climate change, personal finance, personal fitness, smoking, etc.)  I think that a lot of what is being seen now is that people are getting tired of Covid - so they've decided to alter their personal reality so that covid isn't a big deal any more and are acting appropriately.  As we get deeper into our second year of the virus, we'll be seeing more and more of this I suspect.

Imma

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I'm in a high risk category and my family was very affected by Covid (1 person died) during the first wave, so I'm careful. Those family members are healthy and my immune system is broken. I'm always careful around crowds and large gatherings.

I'm staying away from family a lot because most don't take it seriously. They were very ill and still feel unwell 6 months on but think they can't get it again because of antibodies. I don't want to take the risk. We know next to nothing about the long term consequences of this virus. I'd rather miss a few family occasions and regret my year spent knitting at home rather than regretting not taking this serious enough.

What other people do is their decision, I just want people to be honest to me about the amount of risk they are taking to decide whether or not I want to meet up with them.

RainyDay

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To answer the original question:  yes.  My SO's son is 16 and stays with us a few days a week.  He regularly goes out with friends, works a job in a mall, and does all the things typical teenagers do.  I'm 100% positive he's not wearing a mask when he's with his friends, though he probably does when at work. 

Obviously he's in contact with a LOT of people, but there's not much I can do about it.  He's not my kid and I can't exactly ban him from the house!  (well, sure, I *could*, but that's generally not good for the long-term success of a relationship.)

It's not an ideal situation, but I'm not high risk, so I just chalk it up to the risks of living. 

Pigeon

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I avoid and certainly would not live with people who don't take it seriously.  I have two college aged children living at home.  One takes online classes and is rarely out of the house.  The other's classes are clinical, but she masks, washes her hands and is careful.  If they didn't want to be careful, they would be welcome to move out and support themselves.

Unfortunately, my partner is a public school teacher and is forced to teach in-person.  Not everyone in his school is careful, but he is able to insist that students in his classes mask, and he avoids being in the same room as his colleagues.  He takes all the precautions he can.  We wish he could have retired before this year as it makes us nervous.  I work from home and only go out to grocery shop once a week.

Most of my local family are taking it seriously.  One brother and his wife are less careful.  We aren't having family get-togethers with anyone.

Imma

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@spartana unfortunately my country is also doing terribly. I'm afraid the second wave will be a lot worse than the first. I think most countries in Europe are doing worse now, even countries like Germany that we all praised the first time around. During the first wave we had virus hotspots but other areas were hardly affected (my hometown was one of the hotspots) but now it's popping up everywhere at the same time. During the first time a lot of patients were moved around the country to hospitals with empty beds but that's a lot more difficult now.

At this point everyone is so tired of Covid restrictions that the partial lockdown we're in now doesn't even really change people's behaviour anymore. We're probably going into a full lockdown later this week, but realistically those kind of desperate measures only work with the full support of the community. Our police force and army together wouldn't be strong enough to enforce a real lockdown.

tygertygertyger

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What other people do is their decision, I just want people to be honest to me about the amount of risk they are taking to decide whether or not I want to meet up with them.

Yes - this. My brothers and I have been talking on the phone, because we had planned to rent a cabin this winter for a family celebration and keep debating whether to cancel. They say they are concerned about the virus and that they are being careful, but I see photos on social media of group photographs with friends (all crowded in!) with no masks, or doing other activities with people that would make me nervous. My other brother has children in school and daycare, and he and his wife are not able to work from home, and I think they must be in regular contact with at least 50 other households per week. There is a clear difference between our definitions of risk, though we all profess that we are being careful! 

My partner and I have only seen our parents indoors for the last several months. We're both lucky to work from home, and we go outside many times a day with our dog on walks. I'm not high risk - nor is my partner - but we're quite concerned about our parents, who are higher risk and who we still want to see! I'm especially concerned about my mom getting the virus.

Despite fewer numbers of people dying in the recent statistics, there seems to be more information on effects lasting (so far) for months (brain fog, heart problems - even in young otherwise healthy people, ongoing shortness of breath), that are enough to keep me knitting on the couch like Imma.

Cranky

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People around me have been locked inside too long, and we are "done" with it.  As a group we are young and healthy, and at very low risk of severe complications from this virus.  I think that as much as possible, the cost of something should be born by the people who benefit from it.  In this case, the benefit of isolation goes to the high risk - the sick, the very old, etc.  Those people should take strong measures to protect themselves, such as isolating or limiting their social group.  That sucks, but if you benefit from it, you pay the cost.  I'm done putting my life on hold.


I started leaning towards this line of thought early summer, but I went all the way in August.  I saw a few family members that are very overweight, and generally unhealthy.  They are very worried about COVID, but are taking no measures to lose weight or clean up their health (I asked).  In the last 6 months they could have made major changes to their personal risk.  Instead they ask the whole world to protect them while they eat junk, smoke, and don't exercise.  These are the people I'm supposed to be protecting?  They're not even protecting themselves.  I have a lot of sympathy for you Spartana, your situation is clearly different, and I hope you find ways to have a fulfilling life during quarantine without exposing yourself to too much risk.
The thing is we haven't been locked inside at all. Just the opposite in that our state has strongly encouraged us to get outdoors and do "all the things". I (we) still run, walk, hike, bike, climb, kayak, surf, sup, camp,  etc...and do road trips to various places to do those thngs. We even practice sports and do drills and play amongst ourselves with a couple of other people we know are equally cautious when we can do it safely. I'd have gone crazy if I was in total lockdown like so many others have experience so I do get that rationale.  So I don't think it is lack of activity or being a shut-in in his case but more just the desire to do things in larger groups that just happen to involve close physical contact. Why the sudden change? I don't know as he seemed very satisfied with all the other activities these last few months.

There hasn’t been any actual “lockdown” in my area. By the beginning of June *everything* was open. Church is open, the bars are open, school is open, the mall is open, gyms are open...

What exactly is the proposal for people who have risk factors and want to not get sick? Are they going to be paid to stay home?

tweezers

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People around me have been locked inside too long, and we are "done" with it.  As a group we are young and healthy, and at very low risk of severe complications from this virus.  I think that as much as possible, the cost of something should be born by the people who benefit from it.  In this case, the benefit of isolation goes to the high risk - the sick, the very old, etc.  Those people should take strong measures to protect themselves, such as isolating or limiting their social group.  That sucks, but if you benefit from it, you pay the cost.  I'm done putting my life on hold.


It's important to remember that one of the key reasons for reducing community spread is to ensure that the medical resources are available for everyone.  Hospitals that are at capacity treating COVID patients don't have the space or personnel to tend to people in car accidents or with other medical emergencies (stroke, heart attack, etc.).  There is a middle ground between shutting everything down and a complete return to pre-pandemic behavior.  If modifying my behavior a little bit (wearing masks, outdoor and distant social interactions) protects others and keeps hospital resources below capacity, that's a pretty small sacrifice.  Alongside all of the data pointing to the economic benefits of controlling the virus, thinking beyond your immediate risk from the virus and adjusting your behavior likely benefits you too.

ericrugiero

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My personal beliefs on the virus are somewhat middle of the road.  I social distance, wear a mask where required, wash hands, hold my breath when walking past strangers in the grocery store, etc.  But, I'm also back to playing basketball and volleyball regularly which certainly exposes me to that group so I can't say I'm being really careful. 

My wife is much less concerned about the virus than I am.  She wears a mask much less than me, doesn't wash hands much, (other than after using restroom) doesn't think much about social distancing, and is getting ready to go visit family 7 hours away who are having a Halloween get together.  I wish she would take it more seriously but we have argued about it several times and I'm not going to try to force her to accept my standard of behavior. 

At this point, it seems like most people are just tired of the lockdowns and it's clear the virus is much less dangerous than originally believed.  I remember hearing numbers like 3-4% mortality and thinking based on how contagious it was that it would hit my area HARD back in the spring.  I was expecting our local hospital to be overloaded and to know tons of people who were sick by April-May.  My job required me to be around others so I thought there was a decent chance I would catch it by June.  To date, I know three people personally who have had the virus and several others that are one degree of separation from me.  All 3 that I know have gotten sick in the last month so it is certainly hitting my area harder than it was, but my county is still holding steady at around 30-40 active (known) cases at any one time.  This is an increase from 20-30 known active cases at a time.  Note:  I'm not saying the virus isn't bad, just that it's less contagious and deadly than originally believed. 

Many people also believe that the virus can't be stopped and we are all going to be exposed at some point no matter what so they just want to live their lives with minimal disruption. 

MudPuppy

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I get it that people are "tired of lockdowns" (particularly those of you are aren't actually locked down, it would seem) but I work in a hospital and I'm getting real fucking "tired of wondering which of my friends is going to die next"


It's not hard to wear a mask and practice responsible social distancing. I've been doing it. My neighbors have been doing it.

Imma

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@ericrugiero I'm not sure that the virus is less dangerous than we first thought, it's just that we have learned a LOT about treatment that we didn't know 9 months ago. My hometown was hit hard in Feb/March, with hospital overload and everything. Back then the only available treatment to my family members was oxygen and fluids through IV. That's literally the only care they received. Our local cemetary is full of headstones with dates in March.

Right now we know a lot more about treatment, so as long as there are hospital beds available mortality rates will be fairly low, although much higher than for example flu. But in my country we are (again) reaching the limits of what hospitals can take. When the hospitals are full, that's when the mortality is going to rise again.

I do agree that the virus is probably here to stay, but we can't afford to all get sick at the same time. So we'll have to learn with disruptions to our lives for the forseeable future, to avoid situations where the ambulance doesn't even turn up anymore when you're in a car crash.

tweezers

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I get it that people are "tired of lockdowns" (particularly those of you are aren't actually locked down, it would seem) but I work in a hospital and I'm getting real fucking "tired of wondering which of my friends is going to die next"


It's not hard to wear a mask and practice responsible social distancing. I've been doing it. My neighbors have been doing it.

x1000.  Thanks for all you do.

ericrugiero

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@ericrugiero I'm not sure that the virus is less dangerous than we first thought, it's just that we have learned a LOT about treatment that we didn't know 9 months ago. My hometown was hit hard in Feb/March, with hospital overload and everything. Back then the only available treatment to my family members was oxygen and fluids through IV. That's literally the only care they received. Our local cemetary is full of headstones with dates in March.

Right now we know a lot more about treatment, so as long as there are hospital beds available mortality rates will be fairly low, although much higher than for example flu. But in my country we are (again) reaching the limits of what hospitals can take. When the hospitals are full, that's when the mortality is going to rise again.

I do agree that the virus is probably here to stay, but we can't afford to all get sick at the same time. So we'll have to learn with disruptions to our lives for the forseeable future, to avoid situations where the ambulance doesn't even turn up anymore when you're in a car crash.

I'm not saying that it's not dangerous, just that it's not as bad as many of us thought initially.  You definitely have a point about the things we have learned regarding treatment and that overloading the hospitals would be very bad. 


RetiredAt63

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Our numbers went up after (Canadian) Thanksgiving, slowly coming down after we went to tighter restrictions.  Hospitals got scarily close to full.  Having better treatments doesn't help much if the hospitals are overwhelmed.

Segare

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I'm not saying that it's not dangerous, just that it's not as bad as many of us thought initially.  You definitely have a point about the things we have learned regarding treatment and that overloading the hospitals would be very bad.
From the people dropping in the streets of China in the beginning to the super high predicted numbers that never was, yeah, it wasn't like they made it out to be.
I am always coming up with things to make people think.  I got a few laughs out one the other day.  Not sure it will be taken the same reading it vs me saying it in person.
Here goes.
If humans now need to wear a mask going forward, maybe it is time for the species to expire? If there is a creator maybe he should exterminate us, being we are a failed experiment. The thought of a race or species needing to wear a mask to be around each other I find odd, couple that we the vast amount of medical care they need. Take us out to pasture. 


Imma

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@ericrugiero I'm not sure that the virus is less dangerous than we first thought, it's just that we have learned a LOT about treatment that we didn't know 9 months ago. My hometown was hit hard in Feb/March, with hospital overload and everything. Back then the only available treatment to my family members was oxygen and fluids through IV. That's literally the only care they received. Our local cemetary is full of headstones with dates in March.

Right now we know a lot more about treatment, so as long as there are hospital beds available mortality rates will be fairly low, although much higher than for example flu. But in my country we are (again) reaching the limits of what hospitals can take. When the hospitals are full, that's when the mortality is going to rise again.

I do agree that the virus is probably here to stay, but we can't afford to all get sick at the same time. So we'll have to learn with disruptions to our lives for the forseeable future, to avoid situations where the ambulance doesn't even turn up anymore when you're in a car crash.

I'm not saying that it's not dangerous, just that it's not as bad as many of us thought initially.  You definitely have a point about the things we have learned regarding treatment and that overloading the hospitals would be very bad.

Some research was published here yesterday. The death rate is much less than that 3-4% expected at first (probably because they weren't aware yet that some people had no or few symptoms) but during the first wave it was around 1% in my country according to our government figures. An estimated 1 million people were infected (based on antibodies research) and 10.000 extra people died compared to a normal year. This closely matches the estimated death rate of 1,1% for modern industrialized nations that London's Imperial College published yesterday (source only available in Dutch unfortunately: https://www.ed.nl/dossier-coronavirus/hoe-groot-is-de-kans-dat-je-sterft-aan-corona-dit-zijn-de-dodelijke-feiten~ae88ca7a/ )

So mortality is much higher than the flu. And where flu kills mostly people in the 80+ category, Corona also kills quite a lot of people the 50-65 and 65-80 categories. Although not a lot of young people (under 50) die from Covid, the death rate among young people is still a lot higher than the flu (which hardly ever kills anyone under 65 unless they're for example severely immunocompromised due to chemo).

Now we have more treatment available than during the first wave so the death rate will probably be lower, but I have not found statistics about how many people still suffer from side effects months later. I personally know quite a few people that still suffer from extreme fatigue and brain fog months later. I'm 30 and immunocompromised, I don't think Covid would kill me, but I'm pretty sure I'd be quite sick and I would really hate to get additional symptoms on top of the chronic illness I already have.

ReadySetMillionaire

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Human brains aren't really wired to handle long term problems in a sensible way.  (See also: climate change, personal finance, personal fitness, smoking, etc.)  I think that a lot of what is being seen now is that people are getting tired of Covid - so they've decided to alter their personal reality so that covid isn't a big deal any more and are acting appropriately.  As we get deeper into our second year of the virus, we'll be seeing more and more of this I suspect.

What about the long term collateral damage of COVID policy? The increased suicidal ideation, overdoses, mental illness (significant anxiety and major depression) in youth, poor academic outcomes (especially for poor kids), economic harm, etc.?

I would flip your point on its head -- it's far easier to pay attention to the COVID Tracking Project and daily case numbers and deaths than to consider the invisible long term consequences that we are willfully imposing on our society, most sharply at economically disadvantaged persons.

MudPuppy

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The better we focus on preventing spread now the sooner we can responsibly stop the prevention measures and therefore stop all those "invisible" costs. I don't know why this is difficult to understand.

GuitarStv

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Human brains aren't really wired to handle long term problems in a sensible way.  (See also: climate change, personal finance, personal fitness, smoking, etc.)  I think that a lot of what is being seen now is that people are getting tired of Covid - so they've decided to alter their personal reality so that covid isn't a big deal any more and are acting appropriately.  As we get deeper into our second year of the virus, we'll be seeing more and more of this I suspect.

What about the long term collateral damage of COVID policy? The increased suicidal ideation, overdoses, mental illness (significant anxiety and major depression) in youth, poor academic outcomes (especially for poor kids), economic harm, etc.?

These are absolutely real and valid concerns.  We need to come together to provide aid and assistance to those in need to combat them.  Giving up on safety precautions before it's safe to do so will increase, rather than reduce these problems as things get increasingly out of control.



I would flip your point on its head -- it's far easier to pay attention to the COVID Tracking Project and daily case numbers and deaths than to consider the invisible long term consequences that we are willfully imposing on our society, most sharply at economically disadvantaged persons.

Agreed.  Additional assistance in funding and programs is necessary to help the economically disadvantaged.

ReadySetMillionaire

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The better we focus on preventing spread now the sooner we can responsibly stop the prevention measures and therefore stop all those "invisible" costs. I don't know why this is difficult to understand.

This is an empty political line espoused mostly by our politicians in early March who eight months later do not have the courage to admit their mistakes and make the difficult decisions that need to be made.

MudPuppy

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If our leadership actually did what needed to be done and if our community members had done the same we wouldn't still be at this level of problem.

GuitarStv

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The better we focus on preventing spread now the sooner we can responsibly stop the prevention measures and therefore stop all those "invisible" costs. I don't know why this is difficult to understand.

This is an empty political line espoused mostly by our politicians in early March who eight months later do not have the courage to admit their mistakes and make the difficult decisions that need to be made.

Your president said that the virus was under control, that it was the same as the flu, that it would go away on it's own, that there was no reason to wear masks, that there was no reason to lock anything down, that it could be cured by bleach, that it could be cured by sunlight, that it could be cured by hydroxychloroquine, and that there would be a vaccine available by the US election.  All the while he has been holding close rallies where masks are optional, and has been spreading the disease around the White House staff.

I don't remember any focus on preventing spread.  Can you point me to some applicable quotes?

ReadySetMillionaire

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The better we focus on preventing spread now the sooner we can responsibly stop the prevention measures and therefore stop all those "invisible" costs. I don't know why this is difficult to understand.

This is an empty political line espoused mostly by our politicians in early March who eight months later do not have the courage to admit their mistakes and make the difficult decisions that need to be made.

Your president said that the virus was under control, that it was the same as the flu, that it would go away on it's own, that there was no reason to wear masks, that there was no reason to lock anything down, that it could be cured by bleach, that it could be cured by sunlight, that it could be cured by hydroxychloroquine, and that there would be a vaccine available by the US election.  All the while he has been holding close rallies where masks are optional, and has been spreading the disease around the White House staff.

I don't remember any focus on preventing spread.  Can you point me to some applicable quotes?

You're not going to find me defending Trump on COVID.  I started an entire thread in March arguing that his terrible response likely cost him re-election. https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/coronavirus-is-the-end-of-trump/

But, we live in a federalism, and I live in Ohio, and I can send you hundreds (if not thousands) of tweets and quotes from our governor regarding his plan. Most governors had similar plans.

slappy

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Does anyone know how long it takes from initial exposure to being contagious to others? I had read that it takes approx 5 days to 2 weeks  to start showing symptoms but that you can actually be infectious before your symptoms begin. Google seems all over the place with that question/answer.

We had covid recently and we were told two days prior to symptoms is when you start being contagious.

mm1970

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I started leaning towards this line of thought early summer, but I went all the way in August.  I saw a few family members that are very overweight, and generally unhealthy.  They are very worried about COVID, but are taking no measures to lose weight or clean up their health (I asked).  In the last 6 months they could have made major changes to their personal risk.  Instead they ask the whole world to protect them while they eat junk, smoke, and don't exercise.  These are the people I'm supposed to be protecting?  They're not even protecting themselves.  I have a lot of sympathy for you Spartana, your situation is clearly different, and I hope you find ways to have a fulfilling life during quarantine without exposing yourself to too much risk.

I'm not sure it's super helpful to suggest this during a pandemic.  In times of stress, it's even more difficult to make huge changes.

deborah

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I started leaning towards this line of thought early summer, but I went all the way in August.  I saw a few family members that are very overweight, and generally unhealthy.  They are very worried about COVID, but are taking no measures to lose weight or clean up their health (I asked).  In the last 6 months they could have made major changes to their personal risk.  Instead they ask the whole world to protect them while they eat junk, smoke, and don't exercise.  These are the people I'm supposed to be protecting?  They're not even protecting themselves.  I have a lot of sympathy for you Spartana, your situation is clearly different, and I hope you find ways to have a fulfilling life during quarantine without exposing yourself to too much risk.

I'm not sure it's super helpful to suggest this during a pandemic.  In times of stress, it's even more difficult to make huge changes.

@Abe  put up an interesting link which is basically about the European situation -
https://www.euro.who.int/en/health-topics/health-emergencies/coronavirus-covid-19/weekly-surveillance-report

However, Table 1 shows the prevalence of various characteristics associated with covid19. It was interesting reading as I hadn’t seen the figures before. Of those who have died (presumably in Europe), only 11% were obese and only 5% were immune suppressed. It appears to me that the message is that obesity isn’t much of a factor, nor is immune suppression. However, cardiovascular disease and diabetes are definitely high risk factors.

Abe

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The other thing to note is that the median age of people who have died from COVID-19 in Europe is 81, and 50% had no significant risk factors other than age. Why could this be? A person's immune system weakens significantly as one ages, specifically the ability to tolerate respiratory infections. Prior to modern antibiotics, pneumonia was the major cause of death in the elderly worldwide. Since antibiotics don't work on primary viral infections, we are seeing a similar effect amongst the elderly.

deborah

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Fantastic news!

MudPuppy

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I’m glad you found a workable solution for you both!

Mr. Green

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Yay!

jrhampt

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^^ Yes, kids seem to be a common issue.  One of my friend's kids was continuing to hang out with friends etc. but finally moved out to live with her boyfriend and sure enough, this week both she and her boyfriend tested positive.