The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: KS on December 12, 2013, 06:55:01 PM
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There are a fair amount of Seattle folks on here, so I thought I'd seek out a little info. My husband recently had a first round phone interview in Seattle, and while it's way premature to worry about our decision yet, I wanted to be prepared for the financial side in case it ends up being a real possibility we need to consider. (Obviously there are also tons of other factors involved: quality of job, weather, friends/family etc. but I'm starting with the "easier" part!)
I know Seattle is a high cost of living area, but we currently live in the Silicon Valley area which is also plenty expensive so it sounds "cheap" in comparison. Anybody have a sense of how the two really compare? The stats I have so far:
According to online COL calculators, Seattle is ~25-34% cheaper than where we live now. (Primarily due to housing, I don't think most other stuff is that much different between the two places.)
Unfortunately, the salary range for this position is also lower than his current job, by about 15-23%
I'm currently not working, so that makes it a little easier... but this is definitely more of the main hub for my industry and it might be slightly harder to find my next position if I'm looking up there vs down here. (And presumably the salary will be a little lower up there for me as well.)
Since I don't know where I'd be working I don't know where specifically in Seattle we'd try to live... Hubby's potential job is north-ish (near UW vicinity) if that helps.
Anyway, per usual this was a longer post than I intended to write, but I guess my main question is this: for those of you in the know, how do the costs really compare between the two areas? Financially, does it only make a difference to move if his salary would stay the same or closer to his current one or is some amount of pay-cut still reasonable given lower housing costs? Thanks in advance for any insights!
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My wife and I are in a similar situation, debating whether to move out of the Bay to an area with lower cost of living (Seattle, Oregon, Austin).
Housing: Rather than relying on online COL calculators, maybe try looking at Zillow and Redfin listings for areas where you'd like to live in Seattle? Where I live in the Bay, decent houses go for 700Kish and the area we were looking at in Seattle (Bothell) was about 450-500K average. That alone is worth 200K Principal and about 250K interest (4.5% over 30 years) for a total of 450K ie ~ 15K per year
Taxes: No state taxes in Washington - California taxes work out to 7.5% for me.
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I moved from the bay area to Seattle ten years ago. I love it here.
State income / capital gains tax: none in WA, 7-10% in CA.
Sales tax: the same
Property tax: higher in WA, but it's complex. Levy rates in Seattle range from about 1.05 to 1.38% of assessed value, and values are reassessed to market every year. In San Francisco the rate is 1.1691%, but you have Prop 13 which means that there's not annual reassessment. However, houses are cheaper in Seattle.
Rents / homes: up to 50% cheaper in WA. Check out redfin.
Grocery costs: about the same AFAIK
Liquor: much more expensive in WA
Electricity: WA has the cheapest electricity in the state thanks to old hydro, costs half of what it does in CA
Natural gas costs: about 20% higher in WA
Gasoline: roughly the same, but you'll likely drive much less in Seattle, as sprawl and distances are less, and at a given price point it's easier to live a walkable/bikeable existence.
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I've never lived in your current location since I've been in Seattle my whole life, but a couple tips of things to look at.
There are bad traffic problems and the bus system as good as it is, is facing cuts, sucky route redesigns and other issues. But, you still don't have to live right next to work. I live a few miles north of the UW and used to bus commute through it for years, the ride always took about 15 minutes using surface roads and never got stuck in traffic. Housing is much cheaper up here than right next to the U. A two bedroom, one bath home 1350 square feet with 7000 square feet of land total sold a month and a half ago on my block for $255K, a short walk from transit and many amenities.
Though I fear the decline of the bus system, the light rail is on the rise. It is nearly all grade separated (except for a couple of areas pretty far outside the core) and currently runs all the way from the airport to downtown, every ten minutes or less for most of the day. (Late night and early mornings go up to every 15 minutes or so.) As of spring 2016, these same trains will be running all the way through Capitol Hill and then to the UW. In 2021, they will even make it up to my neck of the woods. (I talk about the light rail a lot because I can't wait.) You can take your bike on the train. (I don't know how much of a cycling badass you are, but there are clearly people who bike year round everywhere here.)
When considering housing locations in Seattle, I would suggest to consider the different transportation options as a part of the budget, and not to overlook what will be in place only a couple years in the future. Housing pricing is especially weird right near the U for obvious reasons, but only a few miles away you can find something totally frugal (for the city, anyway).
A couple other random notes: weather is less temperate than SF, yet more temperate than most of the country. You might use more heating but it's cheap thanks to our socialist electric company. Most people do not have A/C in their house, it's only hot for a week or two every year. I am sometimes shocked by the cost of produce (many things have to be trucked from California, after all) but we also have many farmers markets (and many things being farmed in Washington) so it may all even out.
Let me know if you have any questions about Seattle neighborhoods and transit and such. Welcome (possibly) to our fine city.
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We moved to Seattle from the Bay Area, where we lived in the city and later in Palo Alto. Seattle is expensive compared to many other NA cities, but a bargain compared to the Bay Area. This was 4 years ago so fairly recently. We investigated LA, Portland, MSP, NYC and various cities in Europe. Our criteria were urban+affordable+good public schools. It is a hard "and" combination to find. We have loved, loved, loved Seattle and still do. We chose a neighborhood near downtown. All expenses are lower; real estate much, much less so. The savings in no state income tax was a huge surprise that we did not anticipate compared to CA. And the rain - not an issue for us. We actually find the 4 seasons fabulous, agree that while more cloudy days, the rain is not an issue. Grocery expenses are comparable. Dining out is less expensive; the food is great here. Gas is about the same. I cannot recall utility expenses in the Bay Area. Seattle is also fairly green - we even have to compost here. Bicycle paths abound. Cultural activities abound. Personally, the scenery of the Pacific NW is astounding, providing for low cost activities. There is a lot to do here, and in close driving or biking range.
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Sorry to hijack OP's thread but any suggestions from the above posters for affordable neighborhoods with good schools in Seattle? Bothell and Lynnwood were suggested by a friend. Just for plugging numbers into Redfin/Zillow
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Understand that neither Bothell or Lynnwood are actually Seattle. They're bedroom communities north of the city. If you actually want to live in the city proper (to have easy access to the city's fun stuff to do, public transport, etc), you're going to need to go about 30 minutes south.
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Understand that neither Bothell or Lynnwood are actually Seattle. They're bedroom communities north of the city. If you actually want to live in the city proper (to have easy access to the city's fun stuff to do, public transport, etc), you're going to need to go about 30 minutes south.
Realistically, if we move from the Bay, our housing budget is going to be around 450K and given our family size, we need 3+ bedrooms. I know long commutes are unmustachian to say the least but given our budget, it is what it is.
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Hey, that's totally fair. Just wanted to let you know that where you're looking isn't actually in Seattle. :)
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Realistically, if we move from the Bay, our housing budget is going to be around 450K and given our family size, we need 3+ bedrooms. I know long commutes are unmustachian to say the least but given our budget, it is what it is.
That commute is going to be terrible, the traffic here is really bad and unpredictable. I've been stuck in terrible traffic on weekends for no apparent reason. Evening rush hour is packed, especially northbound in your direction (but it seems to end early). The problem is there's only one major north-south road: I-5.
Can you afford something in Bellevue? It's a lot closer. Make note that there are two bridges that go across Lake Washington between Bellevue and Seattle, and the one to the north is a toll bridge. I-90 is the southern one, and there's talk of putting tolls on it but it hasn't happened yet.
The cheapest houses in Seattle that I know of are in the Beacon Hill area. Schools are decent, and let's face it you--the parents--matter much more than the schools for how your kids turn out anyway.
Also consider renting vs owning a house in Seattle proper; the housing market is up so that means you may be better off renting.
If you want REALLY cheap, I pay $900/month for an interior (no windows, just skylight) 1-bedroom apartment in the International District. There are studios nearby that rent for less. So, yeah, you can live pretty cheap here.
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Wow so many responses already, thank you guys this will be a big help if he makes it through the next round of interviews! I also appreciate some of the things you've pointed out that didn't occur to me to think of but should have (taxes etc).
I have some family in Seattle, so I've been up there a bit and really like it, although I have been very spoiled and the last few years worth of visits I have had clear blue skies the whole time every time. Don't mind the cold and actually miss having 4 real seasons (lived in Boulder for my college years) but do worry a bit about 200+ days a year of cloud cover as I tend to hibernate if the sun isn't out. But with enough other factors in Seattle's favor, I figure I could get myself one of those light boxes or something if that ends up being all that holds me back from moving!
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KS, Philips makes a great blue light for those darker days. I would say though the dark days, at least for us, are not too many and not too awful. On thing to also investigate is that Seattle, like San Francisco, has micro climates. The right neighborhood with the right micro climate can make a big difference, just like it does in SF.
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I work at Microsoft in Silicon Valley. It's a good vantage point from which to comment on this, because people move back or forth all the time. They tend to move south as a palliative against SAD, and north as a palliative against absurd real estate costs when they think having a yard is important. (Or to Gilroy --natch.)
You look pretty well-informed. There will be a pay cut, and a COL cut, and the COL cut will probably be higher.
That's on average. Particular situations can vary. Our strategy for the first several years out of college was to live in small apartments. We were able to park our entire housing budget within what I understand to be the COL-premium companies pay Silicon Valley employees. (Similar to the numbers you're quoting.) It's unlikely we would have been much better off in a lower COL area. We might not have been much worse off, either. California taxes are really high.
Note that there are no state income taxes in Washington. That's a pretty big deal. I'm not sure if people factor that into the raw COL numbers.
Net-net: I think most people will see an increase in spending power by making the move you're considering, but the particulars are important.
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That commute is going to be terrible, the traffic here is really bad and unpredictable. I've been stuck in terrible traffic on weekends for no apparent reason. Evening rush hour is packed, especially northbound in your direction (but it seems to end early). The problem is there's only one major north-south road: I-5.
Can you afford something in Bellevue? It's a lot closer. Make note that there are two bridges that go across Lake Washington between Bellevue and Seattle, and the one to the north is a toll bridge. I-90 is the southern one, and there's talk of putting tolls on it but it hasn't happened yet.
The cheapest houses in Seattle that I know of are in the Beacon Hill area. Schools are decent, and let's face it you--the parents--matter much more than the schools for how your kids turn out anyway.
Also consider renting vs owning a house in Seattle proper; the housing market is up so that means you may be better off renting.
If you want REALLY cheap, I pay $900/month for an interior (no windows, just skylight) 1-bedroom apartment in the International District. There are studios nearby that rent for less. So, yeah, you can live pretty cheap here.
Thanks! I just looked at Bellevue and boy, I have some sticker shock. Most houses are close to or above the seven figure mark.
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That commute is going to be terrible, the traffic here is really bad and unpredictable. I've been stuck in terrible traffic on weekends for no apparent reason. Evening rush hour is packed, especially northbound in your direction (but it seems to end early). The problem is there's only one major north-south road: I-5.
Remember that 'bad' is relative. To someone used to the Bay Area, it may come as a relief. E.g. being stuck in terrible traffic on a weekend is the norm.
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Remember that 'bad' is relative. To someone used to the Bay Area, it may come as a relief. E.g. being stuck in terrible traffic on a weekend is the norm.
Agreed, my 21 mile commute takes me slightly more than an hour right now. 880 is a parking lot during peak hours
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But why not take the opportunity when you move to correct that, rather than pretending two hours a day in the car is a necessary part of working?
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But why not take the opportunity when you move to correct that, rather than pretending two hours a day in the car is a necessary part of working?
I'll readily admit this is unmustachian. However, we really want a house with a yard in a good school district without over-extending our budget. Given the current home prices, this doesn't seem realistic but if I see something on the market that ticks all the boxes, I'm ready to pounce on it. The bright side is that in my industry working remotely is pretty common, so I'd negotiate any job offer to let me spend at least a day or two working from home.
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Just chiming in to say thanks for a great thread. Wife and I are also thinking about this move in the next few years so its great to see the question answered.
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Moved from Silicon Valley to Portland 7 years ago, and don't regret it. The main driving force was real estate cost. We wanted to buy our first house. Houses in SV were around $1MM (and we're talking about 60 year old houses with under 2000 SF). Houses in Portland were a third of that. The thought of working another 20 years just to afford a house made the decision for us...
Seattle is more expensive than Portland, but you get more employment options as well. If you plan on buying a home, I think it's a good choice.
If you plan on renting, the numbers are more complicated. When entering numbers in the COL calculators, use what you spend, rather than what you make (they are assuming that the average anti-Mustachian spends everything they make).
So, for example, if you net 120K in SV, but spend only 60k. And if salaries and COL are 20% lower in Seattle, you'll be down to 100k and 50k, Under this scenario, you would be saving 10k a year more in SV.
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But why not take the opportunity when you move to correct that, rather than pretending two hours a day in the car is a necessary part of working?
I'll readily admit this is unmustachian. However, we really want a house with a yard in a good school district without over-extending our budget. Given the current home prices, this doesn't seem realistic but if I see something on the market that ticks all the boxes, I'm ready to pounce on it. The bright side is that in my industry working remotely is pretty common, so I'd negotiate any job offer to let me spend at least a day or two working from home.
Under $450k means you can have some buying opportunities in northern Ballard, Crown Hill, Greenwood, and maybe Fremont etc. Those are good walkable neighborhoods. I've got 2 grocery stores within walking distance, as well as a ton of bars/restaurants/parks. Bicycle lanes abound, and if you live in Ballard/Fremont, there is a bicycle path that goes all the way to UW. South of 85th street you will send them to Ballard High, north of 85th they will go to Inglewood.
Single family houses are available, but they are older homes, and typically 1200-1400sqft. Most will need some work in the high $300's and low $400's. You can buy <10 year old townhomes for under $450k that need nothing. Downside to a townhome is very little yard (or none in my case), and the 3rd bedroom is typically on the lowest level. Sizes range from about 1200-1600sqft.
For school districts, Garfield High typically gets the highest ratings in Seattle Public system, followed by Ballard and Nathan Hale I believe. I don't have kids yet, but we bought in Ballard's current district area.
I personally would caution against living outside city limits. The traffic is pretty bad here if you work normal ~9-5 times. Your options to commute on are only I-5 or WA-99 for N/S, and I-90 and WA-522 for E/W across the lake.
Seattle is a VERY bike (and motorcycle) commuting friendly city.
I really really wanted to live in Issaquah or Kirkland when we moved here, but there was just no way we were willing to commute that much.
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Under $450k means you can have some buying opportunities in northern Ballard, Crown Hill, Greenwood, and maybe Fremont etc. Those are good walkable neighborhoods. I've got 2 grocery stores within walking distance, as well as a ton of bars/restaurants/parks. Bicycle lanes abound, and if you live in Ballard/Fremont, there is a bicycle path that goes all the way to UW. South of 85th street you will send them to Ballard High, north of 85th they will go to Inglewood.
Single family houses are available, but they are older homes, and typically 1200-1400sqft. Most will need some work in the high $300's and low $400's. You can buy <10 year old townhomes for under $450k that need nothing. Downside to a townhome is very little yard (or none in my case), and the 3rd bedroom is typically on the lowest level. Sizes range from about 1200-1600sqft.
For school districts, Garfield High typically gets the highest ratings in Seattle Public system, followed by Ballard and Nathan Hale I believe. I don't have kids yet, but we bought in Ballard's current district area.
I personally would caution against living outside city limits. The traffic is pretty bad here if you work normal ~9-5 times. Your options to commute on are only I-5 or WA-99 for N/S, and I-90 and WA-522 for E/W across the lake.
Seattle is a VERY bike (and motorcycle) commuting friendly city.
I really really wanted to live in Issaquah or Kirkland when we moved here, but there was just no way we were willing to commute that much.
Thank you - really appreciate this. Exactly the kind of information I was looking for.
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Under $450k means you can have some buying opportunities in northern Ballard, Crown Hill, Greenwood, and maybe Fremont etc. Those are good walkable neighborhoods. I've got 2 grocery stores within walking distance, as well as a ton of bars/restaurants/parks. Bicycle lanes abound, and if you live in Ballard/Fremont, there is a bicycle path that goes all the way to UW. South of 85th street you will send them to Ballard High, north of 85th they will go to Inglewood.
Single family houses are available, but they are older homes, and typically 1200-1400sqft. Most will need some work in the high $300's and low $400's. You can buy <10 year old townhomes for under $450k that need nothing. Downside to a townhome is very little yard (or none in my case), and the 3rd bedroom is typically on the lowest level. Sizes range from about 1200-1600sqft.
For school districts, Garfield High typically gets the highest ratings in Seattle Public system, followed by Ballard and Nathan Hale I believe. I don't have kids yet, but we bought in Ballard's current district area.
I personally would caution against living outside city limits. The traffic is pretty bad here if you work normal ~9-5 times. Your options to commute on are only I-5 or WA-99 for N/S, and I-90 and WA-522 for E/W across the lake.
Seattle is a VERY bike (and motorcycle) commuting friendly city.
I really really wanted to live in Issaquah or Kirkland when we moved here, but there was just no way we were willing to commute that much.
Thank you - really appreciate this. Exactly the kind of information I was looking for.
With any luck the real estate market won't be as nuts for you as it was this summer for us. One single family house we bid on, we bid $35k over asking price, and weren't in the top 5 offers.
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You're asking about the cost of housing, specifically. Apart from that, cost of living is about equal. But if you want a house, you will have a much better time in Seattle or Portland.
I worked in SV then Portland and am looking for SV again, but I'm young and childless so big grain of salt.
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I would even go so far as to recommend you rent for a year or two, learn which neighborhoods you like, and then pony up the extra dough to not have to deal with the commute. Ballard, Greenwood, and Fremont are all killer neighborhoods.
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I would even go so far as to recommend you rent for a year or two, learn which neighborhoods you like, and then pony up the extra dough to not have to deal with the commute. Ballard, Greenwood, and Fremont are all killer neighborhoods.
I don't think $450k will get you a lot in Fremont. At least it didn't this summer. The problem with Ballard and Fremont is they are already the big popular neighborhoods so the prices are high accordingly. If you head a bit further from the center of both to say Wallingford, Crown Hill, Greenwood then you can get a bit better for your money. Greenwood is definitely changing for the better right now. A lot of development going on now and more that is scheduled to start shortly.
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We just moved to Greenwood and love it! Great little neighborhood, easy access to downtown and other parts, and yes, we found housing much more reasonable than other parts of the city.
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I live in Bothell. It's more affordable than Seattle and we are able to save 60% of our income by living here. That being said, it's really boring and I can't wait to live somewhere more vibrant. I'm thinking Portland someday when I'm FI.
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Thanks for all the replies - one observation from looking at listings on Zillow etc is that there are very few listings on the market as compared to here in Silicon Valley
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It's the season -- due to the weather and other factors, the number of listings goes WAAAAAY down in the winter.
Here's a cute one in North Ballard in your budget range (435k). Kitchen a little small/dated and one of the bedrooms is in the basement/non-conforming (so they shouldn't really be listing it as a 3br), but looks like it has good bones and some great potential:
http://www.redfin.com/WA/Seattle/7022-26th-Ave-NW-98117/home/166302
Nice, so much greenery :)
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Thanks for all the replies - one observation from looking at listings on Zillow etc is that there are very few listings on the market as compared to here in Silicon Valley
Besides seasonal factors, the market is just really hot in Seattle right now. Houses get posted for sale and are snapped up within a week if the offering price is anywhere near in line with other houses in the area. I'll echo others who have named several neighborhoods north of the Ship Canal as good places to look. The schools are generally good in that part of the city. Houses get less expensive and tend to have larger yards as you go farther north, but you're also going to waste more time commuting.
One point I don't think anyone has mentioned is that a large percentage of residential streets north of 85th Street don't have curbs or sidewalks. People park their cars in gravel strips in between the road and a drainage ditch (storm sewers are a bit of a rarity there too). If you want to walk anywhere you have to walk down the edge of the street between the parked cars and the moving ones. For that reason you'll see houses just south of 85th sell for a bit of a premium over houses a few blocks north. People value walkable neighborhoods these days.
As to cost of living between here and the Bay Area, others have pretty much hit the nail on the head. Housing is significantly cheaper, the lack of state income tax is pretty huge, electricity is cheap, and most other things cost about the same.
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For affordable places with access to the city I'd look south of the city (beacon hill, rainier valley, tukwila) particularly on the Link light rail line.
IMO the Bothell to Seattle commute is one of the worst out there. The I-5 commute north of downtown is the pits.
We used to live not too far from Bothell, and I spent 10+ hours a week commuting. Misery!
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For affordable places with access to the city I'd look south of the city (beacon hill, rainier valley, tukwila) particularly on the Link light rail line.
IMO the Bothell to Seattle commute is one of the worst out there. The I-5 commute north of downtown is the pits.
We used to live not too far from Bothell, and I spent 10+ hours a week commuting. Misery!
The traffic going from South to North in the mornings is much worse than going North to South. At least on WA-99 it is.
As a whole, I think north of the canals tends to be better areas than south of downtown. I live north of the canals and work south of downtown.
Typically, the area a few blocks on either side of WA-99 (AKA Aurora Ave) isn't really that good, but it's not super ghetto. Housing is much cheaper accordingly.
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I live on beacon hill and love it. Just stay on north beacon hill. I can see down town. Husband works there takes the bus, and light light rail.
Hit the freeways in five minutes.
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Another option is West Seattle. I think you can bike across the bridge to downtown.
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I'm in issaquah and moved here from nj in 2011. The savings were HUGE for us coming from northern NJ. We live less than a mile from the transit station and there are tons of shopping, restaurants and places to hike. I drive a Camry hybrid and typically only need gas about once/month.
My husband works from home, which is relatively common out here compared to back East.
Schools are excellent too. The only weird thing is that schools operate weird schedules on Wednesday. My daughter's elementary school dismisses at 1 pm, high school starts later around 9 ish that day.
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I would even go so far as to recommend you rent for a year or two, learn which neighborhoods you like, and then pony up the extra dough to not have to deal with the commute. Ballard, Greenwood, and Fremont are all killer neighborhoods.
This is a great idea actually. Rent and get the lay of the land.
PS: Hello fellow Seattleites on the thread!
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Another option is West Seattle. I think you can bike across the bridge to downtown.
You would have to take the Spokane St. Bridge on the Alki trail. The West Seattle bridge doesn't have a bicycle lane/path. You would then take E Marginal Way to the Elliot Bay bicycle trail.
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Good to learn about cost of living, but you've already seen that job offers usually factor this in, or you couldn't convince people to move.
Almost all pricing differences are really lifestyle tradeoffs, so take people's comments with a grain of salt. You'll have a roof and food in either place. The lifestyle choices will matter way more, and have a way bigger impact on your finances. Do you like rain? Urban or suburban? Waking to the store? Driving to work? Owning or renting? Coffee shops? Diversity in your neighborhood? Public transportation? Schools with high test scores? Real estate investment? If you're a tech worker, more competition between employers, or relative stability?
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Saw this over the weekend, but this is the first I can chime in.....I'm in the north end myself.
If the potential job for the hubby is in the UW area, you DO have a viable option that hasn't been mentioned yet: The Burke Gillman trail. You can live in Bothell and bike commute direct to the UW area with no traffic. If you live a bit north, you can drive to Logboom Park (on the north shore of Lk Washington) and bike from there to the UW, Ballard, etc - anywhere on the Burke Gillman, or cut off at the U District across the University Bridge down Eastlake into the south Lake Union area.
Also - with the caveat that yes, in fact, I-5 traffic in the north end is heavy - you do need to take into consideration the transit options. Mountlake Terrace and Lynnwood have P&R lots right on I-5 with direct, express bus lines to down town Seattle AND to the UW. I bus commuted to both locations in the past - it was extra sleeping time for me - I trained myself to wake up when the bus slowed down from freeway speed. These are relatively plush commuter buses - no bums. ALSO consider the fact that the light rail system will be up to Lynnwood in about 10 years. That'll take you from there to UW or downtown without traffic concerns. Buy close enough to walk to the Lynnwood P&R for example and you can also walk to groceries, restaurants (not that any of us here ever go out), etc. Expand to bike range to the P&R and you have a lot more options, and could bike to the same services. Also note that practically all the buses around here have bike racks on them. A hybrid bus / bike commute is an option. Spend some time on the Sound Transit web site - note that ST ISN'T threatening to cut service like KC Metro (which is bullshit, since Pierce transit just increased service, but I digress).
In both Lynnwood and MLT, one can get a LOT of house for 450k. If you go a bit toward Bothell Everett Highway, that would get you into the Northshore School District and you could still do the hybrid car - bike commute to the UW easily.
As for costs - run the numbers in your particular circumstances. Look at overall costs of obtaining the minimum level of housing that suits your needs. If you save 100k in housing costs by going to Shoreline, Lake Forest Park, Lynnwood, MLT, etc, and spend an extra 1k / year in bus commuting, that's a win in my book (put the 100k at 3% = 3k / year pre tax. Knock down by 1/3 for tax and you're still ahead).
YMMV. IMO. Yadda, yadda, yadda......
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madmax - I currently live in the Canyon Park area of Bothell so if you have any questions just let me know. A couple of things I'll mention though, since you asked -- you should have no problem whatsoever finding a home in the Bothell area for $450K. My wife and I own a 3 BD, 2.5 BA, 1,600 sq. ft. home that was built in 2009, and it currently appraises for roughly $315K. The downsides are that 1,600 sq. ft. isn't all that big, IMO, and the front and back yards are tiny. That said, $450K in this area will probably get you 2,500 sq. ft or more with a good sized yard.
Obviously I'm biased, but the Northshore School District (schools in Bothell, Kenmore and Woodinville) is renowned for being one of the best in the state. My wife and I have a 3-month old and one of the main reasons we moved to this area was for his schooling. I'm not an expert on the schools in Lynnwood, but I believe they are typically rated lower than the Northshore schools. That's not to say they are *bad,* just not as highly-rated.
I think the other commenters touched on a lot of the other bullet points. Traffic is bad, food is good, tons of outdoor activities, people are friendly but reserved, if that makes any sense...
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It's awesome this has turned out to be so helpful, and for others considering the same move too! I wonder if all the frustrated Bay Area migrants are partly the cause of the tougher housing market up there, if so it's extra nice of you Seattle-dwellers to be so helpful to us. :)
Great to know about the bike trails, I'm a super-wimpy biker right now but have been trying to get out on it more to build up my strength and confidence for more useful rides. Having dedicated trails that actually go between useful things would be awesome. We have a couple around here but everywhere I really need to go involves at least a few roads that are a little scary for a beginner. And I actually just got to try out the Seattle light rail a couple weeks ago, $2.50 ticket took me directly from the airport to ~1/2 mile from my uncle's house with no traffic or hassle, it was great!
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Where there aren't dedicated bicycle trails, there are usually major roads with wide bicycle lanes. Couple that with drivers here that are used to lots of bicyclists and it makes for a bicycle friendly city.
Keep in mind that there is a helmet law, and also a law that requires you to have lights on your bike at night. While you can get away without, both are a good idea. I would also recommend getting a hi-viz jacket/vest as well. I wear a hi-viz vest on my motorcycle and it helps tremendously.
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Keep in mind that there is a helmet law..
I didn't realize this. Is this only for the city or the whole state? Seattle is losing some points here, but I already knew Vancouver was in the same boat. Too bad as otherwise they both seem like great cities
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Keep in mind that there is a helmet law..
I didn't realize this. Is this only for the city or the whole state? Seattle is losing some points here, but I already knew Vancouver was in the same boat. Too bad as otherwise they both seem like great cities
I didn't realize this either! I usually bike with a helmet, only once or twice have I not used it because of pure forgetfulness. I didn't have anyone give me a problem.
I'll second the experience that, downtown, cars are generally used to dealing with bikes. You still see silly passive-aggressive driver actions like speeding up ridiculously as they pass you.
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http://blog.estately.com/2013/12/15-things-you-can-buy-for-the-price-of-one-months-rent-in-san-francisco/
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http://blog.estately.com/2013/12/15-things-you-can-buy-for-the-price-of-one-months-rent-in-san-francisco/
nice :) I especially like the whole house you can buy in Toledo... a place in similar condition was recently listed in SJ for ~$400k:
http://realestate.msn.com/blogs/post--dollar400000-for-a-burned-out-home
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madmax - I currently live in the Canyon Park area of Bothell so if you have any questions just let me know. A couple of things I'll mention though, since you asked -- you should have no problem whatsoever finding a home in the Bothell area for $450K. My wife and I own a 3 BD, 2.5 BA, 1,600 sq. ft. home that was built in 2009, and it currently appraises for roughly $315K. The downsides are that 1,600 sq. ft. isn't all that big, IMO, and the front and back yards are tiny. That said, $450K in this area will probably get you 2,500 sq. ft or more with a good sized yard.
Obviously I'm biased, but the Northshore School District (schools in Bothell, Kenmore and Woodinville) is renowned for being one of the best in the state. My wife and I have a 3-month old and one of the main reasons we moved to this area was for his schooling. I'm not an expert on the schools in Lynnwood, but I believe they are typically rated lower than the Northshore schools. That's not to say they are *bad,* just not as highly-rated.
I think the other commenters touched on a lot of the other bullet points. Traffic is bad, food is good, tons of outdoor activities, people are friendly but reserved, if that makes any sense...
No way! We are in the Canyon Park area of Bothell too! PM me if you guys want to hang out sometime. We have young kids too.
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I've been reading through this thread and I'm really confused. I live in Atlanta, which allegedly has higher salaries than Seattle (http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Software+Engineer&l1=Atlanta%2C+GA&q2=Software+Engineer&l2=Seattle%2C+WA), but my house cost only about a third of what a comparable one would cost in Seattle. And then seeing you guys write about the bike paths and the walkable neighborhoods and whatnot, I'm thinking to myself "yep, I've got that too." Despite Atlanta (and Georgia in general) having a reputation for poor schools, the high school I'm zoned for has an IB program and a nearby elementary school has such an innovative exercise and gardening program that Michelle Obama visited it. About the only thing mentioned that Seattle has but Atlanta doesn't is pretty scenery. So what am I missing that makes places like Seattle so much better?
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My entire family, force of habit, and being able to get to the mountains in 30 minutes, the ocean in 120, and lakes or the Sound in 10. Those are the only things. I have been to Atlanta and thought it was great.
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Well, the housing collapse hit Atlanta particularly hard, so cost of living is WAY better than it was five years ago. Personally, despite being a southerner, I feel a deep connection with Seattle and more or less loathe Atlanta. But you're right -- on paper, I can't really articulate any great reasons why.
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About the only thing mentioned that Seattle has but Atlanta doesn't is pretty scenery. So what am I missing that makes places like Seattle so much better?
Hmmmm, yes the scenery is pretty.....The Cascades. Puget Sound. There's also the mild climate. Those are worth a lot.
The pretty scenery is really a massive playground in our backyard combined with the mild climate - it's far more than something to look at. Where's the snow skiing within 1 hour of Atlanta? How about multiple 12,000+ foot volcano's to get the snowcone climbing on? The Inside Passage kayak route starts here for some epic sea kayaking (play in the mild current of the south Sound or the lakes, or head up to the San Juan's for some more exciting paddling, or continue all the way to Alaska). Whales / Orca's romp through the sound. Most houses here don't have A/C since it rarely is hot enough and practically is never humid enough to need it. Tornado's or severe T-Storms? Nope. Winter temps are usually in the 40's (with occasional cold and usually dry blasts to the 20's or teens), heavy snowfalls are once in a 5 year occurrence, those summer temps hit the 80's at times most years, but with low humidity, and very rarely get into the 90's and practically always with comfortable overnight lows to cool things off. I think the absolute record high is 100 on the button, and that's only been hit twice, ever, if memory serves. Old growth is something else that's here - yeah, they're not quite as massive as the Redwoods in the Humbolt, but our trail crew clears 2-3 foot diameter Doug Firs every year and the real big stuff is 5-8 foot diameter. Two words for the hunter / fisher types - Elk and Salmon. Hikers, here's 3 words - Pacific Crest Trail. Some of the best scenery on the trail extends from Snoqualmie Pass (I-90) to Canada - the High Sierra is also the highlight. Add in the rest of the great hiking in the Alpine Lakes Wilderness, Glacier Peak Wilderness, the Goat Rocks, Enchantments, etc. to name but a few spots (or for the urban hiking, the Issaquah Alps as Tiger, Squak and Cougar are know). The list of outdoor playground items goes on......
What's it worth to have all of that here? In short, lots. If you want to ski in Atlanta, that's a major vacation to where, the NE or Colorado? Night skiing after work in Atlanta? Nope - but a quick trip up I-90 does it here. How about ocean Kayaking? Trip to the Gulf coast, instead of 15 minutes trip to the sound. Mountain climbing? Get on a plane and come west. Mild climate....well,you're stuck with how many 90 degree and 90% humidity days a year (which has never happened here in Seattle)?
But in re house pricing, it's simple supply and demand. The supply is highly constrained for geographical and political reasons. I won't touch on the latter, but the fact is Seattle IS geographically limited.
Is Atlanta geographically constrained by an arm of the Pacific oriented north / south, and two large north / south oriented lakes, and then by the Cascade foothills? Nope. Atlanta sprawls in all directions from the core with no major geographical restrictions evident on Google Maps for miles more. Compare Seattle to Atlanta in the terrain mode at equal levels of magnification and you'll see.
The greater Seattle metro area is stuck in a linear north south corridor between the salt water to the west and Lake Washington to the east - it's about 5 miles or so wide along side Lk. Washington (yes, some is wider, some like the downtown core is narrower). The next urban area across Lake Washington (Bellevue) is constrained by Lake Sammamish to the east of there. East of there, you start hitting the Cascade foothills pretty quickly. As a result, the greater urban area has grown north / south on the I-5 corridor with more or less a blending of Tacoma / Federal Way / Burien / Seattle / Shoreline / MLT / Lynnwood / Everett and on into Marysville (going south to north) into one metro area with little to no significant undeveloped areas in between. When you hit the south end of Lake Washington, it's the same thing more or less - with Renton blending into Bellevue, into Kirkland, into Bothell until you've wrapped the north end of the lake. As a result, if you want to live anywhere within a reasonable distance of the main Seattle core, there aren't a lot of homes compared to the urban area population, ergo prices are generally high. Things get cheaper the further out you go, but then you get the sucky commute if your job is in the core (of course if you work in Everett, for example, say on the wide body assembly line, living way out from Seattle in the north end is a feature, not a bug).
YMMV of course.....but that's why I love the good ole US of A, there's so much variety. Some folks will absolutely love the Seattle area for what it has (like I do - stuff that would be hard to pay for elsewhere), others have different priorities and will choose other areas since they offer what that person wants.
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Awesome posts from others! Here are my two cents:
I just moved from Seattle to Bay Area for work last year. Compared to Bay Area, Seattle cost-of-living is cheaper by 30-40%. Also the traffic is way better (even though Seattle has its traffic jams, its nothing like Bay Area and clears out faster). Anywhere in and around Seattle (Bothel, Redmond, Bellevue, etc) is less costly than Seattle proper. You also get more space/$ and lesser traffic.
The one thing you'll definitely miss is the weather. We take sunshine here for granted, but in Seattle it is precious commodity (so precious that I've seen entire teams leave work early if it is a sunny day).
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Keep in mind that there is a helmet law..
I didn't realize this. Is this only for the city or the whole state? Seattle is losing some points here, but I already knew Vancouver was in the same boat. Too bad as otherwise they both seem like great cities
City.
It's pretty damn stupid to bike without one and without lights, though. So, not seeing why anyone would have a problem.
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So what am I missing that makes places like Seattle so much better?
You don't have to live in Atlanta.
I've spent time in Atlanta. You'd have to pay me a LOT more than what I make here to live anywhere near the gulf coast/deep south. My wife and I could each make 6 figures working in Houston, but it's not at all worth it.
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Keep in mind that there is a helmet law..
I didn't realize this. Is this only for the city or the whole state? Seattle is losing some points here, but I already knew Vancouver was in the same boat. Too bad as otherwise they both seem like great cities
City.
It's pretty damn stupid to bike without one and without lights, though. So, not seeing why anyone would have a problem.
Glad to hear it's not the whole state. I do wonder if you stop at random in the city and tell people they are stupid for not wearing a helmet, it must make you not popular, but alas.
I don't want to turn this thread into a helmet argument, but I'll leave these here for your later reading:
http://www.sharetheroad.ca/won-t-mandatory-helmet-laws-for-cyclists-fix-the-problem--p128278
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/30/sunday-review/to-encourage-biking-cities-forget-about-helmets.html?_r=0
http://www.onestreet.org/resources-for-increasing-bicycling/136-bicycle-helmets
http://bicycleaustin.info/laws/helmet-laws-bad.html
http://bicyclesafe.com/helmets.html
This is not the thread for this discussion, so I will bow out now :)
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We retired in our 30's after working in Seattle. Great place to save
There are a couple comments on this thread that concern me:
1) You want to buy a house for 450k and are OK with a commute.
One of MMM's biggest posts is about the really negative implications involved in that way of thinking
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/06/the-true-cost-of-commuting/
You are probably better off buying a house for 850k and not driving. Please do the math
Being able to walk to a grocery store and have your kids walk to school would be nice, for us at least
2) Why does everybody want to buy a house IMMEDIATELY after moving to a new place? Do you like it there? Is the neighborhood good for your lifestyle? Do you plan to be there forever?
The answer to all of these questions is probably NO. Renting first is probably in your best interest, both in terms of lifestyle and long term financial position.
If you live in the neighborhoods that have been mentioned (Bothell, etc...) you will be a slave to your car. Which brings us back to this post:
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/06/the-true-cost-of-commuting/
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Here is a post I wrote about how we found our perfect living location in Seattle
http://www.gocurrycracker.com/home-sweet-home/
Walkable, easy commute on public transit or bicycle, didn't need to own a car, easy access to library, grocery stores, parks, our garden on public land, restaurants, coffee shops, etc....
We don't have kids (yet) but we were close to an elementary school and a high school. Not that our home location would work for you, but the procedure would be equally useful to you as it was to us
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Keep in mind that there is a helmet law..
I didn't realize this. Is this only for the city or the whole state? Seattle is losing some points here, but I already knew Vancouver was in the same boat. Too bad as otherwise they both seem like great cities
City.
It's pretty damn stupid to bike without one and without lights, though. So, not seeing why anyone would have a problem.
Glad to hear it's not the whole state. I do wonder if you stop at random in the city and tell people they are stupid for not wearing a helmet, it must make you not popular, but alas.
I don't want to turn this thread into a helmet argument, but I'll leave these here for your later reading:
http://www.sharetheroad.ca/won-t-mandatory-helmet-laws-for-cyclists-fix-the-problem--p128278
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/30/sunday-review/to-encourage-biking-cities-forget-about-helmets.html?_r=0
http://www.onestreet.org/resources-for-increasing-bicycling/136-bicycle-helmets
http://bicycleaustin.info/laws/helmet-laws-bad.html
http://bicyclesafe.com/helmets.html
This is not the thread for this discussion, so I will bow out now :)
I don't stop and tell people that to their face, but that doesn't make it any less fucking stupid to ride without a helmet and lights on. It's the same stupid shit that people who ride motorcycles without a helmet spew. The fact is that helmets do prevent injury, and all those reasons people try to claim will be hurt by helmet laws is just stupid complaining. I was saved serious injury from a helmet when I was younger. Hit hard enough to split the helmet in half.
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Here is a post I wrote about how we found our perfect living location in Seattle
http://www.gocurrycracker.com/home-sweet-home/
Walkable, easy commute on public transit or bicycle, didn't need to own a car, easy access to library, grocery stores, parks, our garden on public land, restaurants, coffee shops, etc....
We don't have kids (yet) but we were close to an elementary school and a high school. Not that our home location would work for you, but the procedure would be equally useful to you as it was to us
Exactly. But, you can certainly buy a $450k place with the amenities you list. I spent less than that this summer on a 1600sqft 3bedroom place, actually.
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Keep in mind that there is a helmet law..
I didn't realize this. Is this only for the city or the whole state? Seattle is losing some points here, but I already knew Vancouver was in the same boat. Too bad as otherwise they both seem like great cities
City.
It's pretty damn stupid to bike without one and without lights, though. So, not seeing why anyone would have a problem.
Glad to hear it's not the whole state. I do wonder if you stop at random in the city and tell people they are stupid for not wearing a helmet, it must make you not popular, but alas.
I don't want to turn this thread into a helmet argument, but I'll leave these here for your later reading:
http://www.sharetheroad.ca/won-t-mandatory-helmet-laws-for-cyclists-fix-the-problem--p128278
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/30/sunday-review/to-encourage-biking-cities-forget-about-helmets.html?_r=0
http://www.onestreet.org/resources-for-increasing-bicycling/136-bicycle-helmets
http://bicycleaustin.info/laws/helmet-laws-bad.html
http://bicyclesafe.com/helmets.html
This is not the thread for this discussion, so I will bow out now :)
I don't stop and tell people that to their face, but that doesn't make it any less fucking stupid to ride without a helmet and lights on. It's the same stupid shit that people who ride motorcycles without a helmet spew. The fact is that helmets do prevent injury, and all those reasons people try to claim will be hurt by helmet laws is just stupid complaining. I was saved serious injury from a helmet when I was younger. Hit hard enough to split the helmet in half.
You should meet my aunt, so she can tell you her story about the time NOT wearing her seatbelt saved her life. Point being: your anecdotal evidence is as useless as hers is*.
*this is not to be taken as a statement on my feelings on helmets and helmet laws. Merely that people should understand the difference between anecdotes and data.
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Once again, I don't care whether or not there's a helmet law. I'm just saying if you choose to not wear a helmet, you're damn stupid for it. There is no situation that a helmet would be detrimental in an accident. Worst case scenario, it doesn't help at all. Best case scenario, it helps.
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If that's what you'd actually said, I wouldn't have replied. I don't have any issue with that statement or the logic behind it. I was responding to your anecdotally-supported emotional appeal as if that was actual evidence of anything.
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But why not take the opportunity when you move to correct that, rather than pretending two hours a day in the car is a necessary part of working?
I'll readily admit this is unmustachian. However, we really want a house with a yard in a good school district without over-extending our budget. Given the current home prices, this doesn't seem realistic but if I see something on the market that ticks all the boxes, I'm ready to pounce on it. The bright side is that in my industry working remotely is pretty common, so I'd negotiate any job offer to let me spend at least a day or two working from home.
Unless your job is in Bellevue or Bothell, there's no reason to live out there to commute into Seattle. You *can* find a house with a yard in Seattle proper with good schools for your budget. It just may take some time and/or work on your part once you move in (just like MMM).
We made the move from SV to Seattle years ago, and specifically found a house that allowed us to avoid the crazy commute madness. We can walk/bike/bus (any of the three) to our jobs in Seattle, and we never have to deal with the bridges or the north-south commute.
The freedom of no commute in a car is something that I can't believe I didn't do sooner in my life.
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Keep in mind that there is a helmet law..
I didn't realize this. Is this only for the city or the whole state? Seattle is losing some points here, but I already knew Vancouver was in the same boat. Too bad as otherwise they both seem like great cities
City.
It's pretty damn stupid to bike without one and without lights, though. So, not seeing why anyone would have a problem.
The law is actually at the county level, FYI. I frequently see cyclists without helmets though (maybe 10%?), and I've never seen anyone ticketed for it - it wouldn't surprise me if they only enforce it if you get stopped for something else first.
+1 for renting first - and maybe always. We intend to rent until FI (or nearly so) and then move somewhere with less expensive real estate. We're renting a 3-bedroom house in Bellevue for $1500/mo, with comparable houses selling for high 300s.
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Update: He didn't get the job, although they did say they were going to circulate his resume around other departments for future positions. (May just be the usual thing they say, although in this case it did seem pretty genuine.) But at least for the moment this decision has been taken care of for us! Luckily, in weighing the possibilities he also came to realize how much his current employer has going for them, so it's not a great loss although it's always nicer to get the offer.
Thank you all so much for the varied and thoughtful responses. He doesn't generally read these forums, I just tell him about anything interesting I learn, so he couldn't believe what a supportive community it is when I showed him how many people replied! Seems like there are a few other people weighing the same move too, so it's great to have all this info in one thread now for future reference.