Coronavirus preparedness

[SunnyDays]

My province eliminated the mask mandate this past Saturday, and on my errands today, only about 1/4 - 1/3 of the people I saw were wearing one.  Case numbers are way down here, but I'm still wearing one until I see what happens with Delta locally.  We've been behind the rest of Canada in other waves, so I'm not letting my guard down just yet.

[K_in_the_kitchen]

I'm with you on this.  But, I predict that there will be people wearing masks for a very long time.  Covid scared the shit out of a lot of folks, and no amount of data is ever going to convince some that it's "safe" again.  To each their own, but yeah... much more dangerous things to worry about for kids and vaccinated folks IMHO.

I dislike mask wearing, but I will be wearing a mask indoors in public spaces for "a very long time."  Not because I don't understand the data, but because it's been wonderful to not get sick with a cold or the flu. During the pandemic I learned that staying away from crowded places (indoors), wearing a mask when I did go inside public spaces, and using hand sanitizer upon exit (versus waiting to wash my hands at home) eliminated catching colds or the flu, so I'll keep those behaviors going forward.  As a bonus, if I do get ill and have to go somewhere -- even the doctor's office -- I know keeping my distance, wearing a mask, and frequently cleaning my hands might help prevent someone else from catching it.  Since the data suggest there's no risk to not getting sick as an adult (in other words not getting sick now isn't going to weaken my immune system), I prefer not to, especially since even a simple cold can aggravate my asthma for a month or more.  That's the big takeaway for me: I didn't need to use my asthma inhaler this past fall/winter.  Even fully vaccinated, I'd rather not get C19 if I can help it.  And right now?  Right now I'm willing to do my part for all of the people who can't be vaccinated due to age or medical conditions, and for those who are immunocompromised and ended up not getting immunity from the vaccine.  Because I could catch C19, be asymptomatic, and pass on the virus to someone who can't be vaccinated.  I do agree at some point things are going to have to stabilize and the unvaccinated (plenty in my own extended family) are going to have to deal with the consequences of their choices, but I don't think that should be before we have an FDA approved vaccine for all ages.

[HPstache]

I'm with you on this.  But, I predict that there will be people wearing masks for a very long time.  Covid scared the shit out of a lot of folks, and no amount of data is ever going to convince some that it's "safe" again.  To each their own, but yeah... much more dangerous things to worry about for kids and vaccinated folks IMHO.

I dislike mask wearing, but I will be wearing a mask indoors in public spaces for "a very long time."  Not because I don't understand the data, but because it's been wonderful to not get sick with a cold or the flu. During the pandemic I learned that staying away from crowded places (indoors), wearing a mask when I did go inside public spaces, and using hand sanitizer upon exit (versus waiting to wash my hands at home) eliminated catching colds or the flu, so I'll keep those behaviors going forward.  As a bonus, if I do get ill and have to go somewhere -- even the doctor's office -- I know keeping my distance, wearing a mask, and frequently cleaning my hands might help prevent someone else from catching it.  Since the data suggest there's no risk to not getting sick as an adult (in other words not getting sick now isn't going to weaken my immune system), I prefer not to, especially since even a simple cold can aggravate my asthma for a month or more.  That's the big takeaway for me: I didn't need to use my asthma inhaler this past fall/winter.  Even fully vaccinated, I'd rather not get C19 if I can help it.  And right now?  Right now I'm willing to do my part for all of the people who can't be vaccinated due to age or medical conditions, and for those who are immunocompromised and ended up not getting immunity from the vaccine.  Because I could catch C19, be asymptomatic, and pass on the virus to someone who can't be vaccinated.  I do agree at some point things are going to have to stabilize and the unvaccinated (plenty in my own extended family) are going to have to deal with the consequences of their choices, but I don't think that should be before we have an FDA approved vaccine for all ages.

That's fair, you do what you want for the future.  I'll say this though, those who are immunocompromised and cannot be vaccinated for whatever reason don't need you wearing a mask to protect them anymore.  They can now purchase a properly fitted N95 / P95 or even 100 mask and completely protect themselves regardless of what those around them decide to do.  Many people seem to have forgotten that cloth mask wearing, the type of masking that required all to participate for efficiency, is a relic of the early days of Covid when PPE was a protected commodity for those who really needed it.

[MrGreen]

Now that everyone in North America has had access to free covid vaccines for months, people choosing to not get vaccinated are totally on their own, afaic. For the past year and a half, my family and I have sacrificed to keep others safe, while our anti-vaxx neighbors continued living their lives as usual. Now, I'm supposed to keep social distancing and wearing masks in order to keep them safe? Fuck that bullshit! Ain't happening.

I can't argue with that sentiment; I don't care about the willingly unvaxxed either.  But, I will still continue to wear a mask for my own benefit, because even if Covid won't kill or even hospitalize me, I have no desire to be sick from it to any degree.  It's a no big deal thing to me.

I'll continue to mask religiously because young children are still vulnerable and vaxxed can easily catch and spread without symptoms

I certainly understand the sentiment of being cautious when possible, but according to the data we have COVID is fatal in only 0.00% to 0.03% of cases in children.

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/08/10/1026375608/nearly-94-000-kids-got-covid-19-last-week-they-were-15-of-all-new-infections

Any death is terrible, but with a 0.00% to 0.03% fatality rate in children I think there's many riskier things out there.

This approach does leave plenty of room for a heavy dose of irony if a long-term health effect is realized as a result of even mild cases of covid. Do experts know that this isn't probable yet, being a novel virus? It seems the current concern is in those who experienced brain related symptoms and early onset dementia. That's about 25% of cases so far. I imagine that old time ad with the squeaky clean guy snapping and pointing his finger, with his one tooth sparkling, as he says, "well they didn't die from it so I'd call that a success." It's kinda weird that we write that off, like death or nothing.

[K_in_the_kitchen]

That's fair, you do what you want for the future.  I'll say this though, those who are immunocompromised and cannot be vaccinated for whatever reason don't need you wearing a mask to protect them anymore.  They can now purchase a properly fitted N95 / P95 or even 100 mask and completely protect themselves regardless of what those around them decide to do.  Many people seem to have forgotten that cloth mask wearing, the type of masking that required all to participate for efficiency, is a relic of the early days of Covid when PPE was a protected commodity for those who really needed it.

Sure, but a child under 3 can't wear that kind of mask.  Heck, a child under 7 is going to struggle with it and probably touch it often, move it around, and not wear it properly, if it even fits them at all.  And what if it's an economically disadvantaged family that can't afford to keep themselves in N95s?  What if it's an autistic child under 12 who can't wear a mask?  I have to think outside of the middle class, able bubble.

You do what you want for the future.  We are where we are as a society, and individualism rules the day, but it doesn't rule my values.  I hope there will come a time when the vast majority of us will go unmasked because more of the population has Covid antibodies via immunization or having contracted the disease.  I hope that happens sooner rather than later, so we can get ahead of variants.  But for now, I'll wear a mask.  I also stop at stop signs when there aren't any other cars at the intersection.  I'm not unhappy being me.

[Taran Wanderer]

Delta cases are blowing up in our state and in our county.  Hospitals are full, and we've basically not started taking precautions yet.  Our governor just announced a new mask mandate which will be rolled out tomorrow.  This will help as the spread slows, but Covid cases have a sort of momentum, so the counts are likely to increase for several more weeks... if people actually follow the mask guidelines.  I can't wait to watch the sh*tshow reaction to it from some in our community.  Never mind that new cases are at their highest point in the whole pandemic and the biggest community festival of the year starts tomorrow.  I'm afraid we're going to see some sad stories coming soon.

In other news, I just found out a friend is one of the breakthrough cases.  Despite being vaccinated, they were down for a week with a "mild" case of Covid.  Of course with Covid-19, "mild" is relative to drowning in your own mucus alone on a ventilator...

[MrGreen]

Just came across this gem. A study of studies finds 80% of cases across ~48k people with COVID having at least one long-term symptom. Even if the data is off by a little bit as we plod through these early days of studies, that's quite something. Of course no one is quantifying long term yet. One month and six month suferrers are all lumped into the same group. I think I'll keep masking. Lol

https://www.realclearscience.com/articles/2021/08/10/there_are_more_than_50_long-term_effects_of_covid-19_789293.html

[habanero]

Just came across this gem. A study of studies finds 80% of cases across ~48k people with COVID having at least one long-term symptom. Even if the data is off by a little bit as we plod through these early days of studies, that's quite something. Of course no one is quantifying long term yet. One month and six month suferrers are all lumped into the same group. I think I'll keep masking. Lol

https://www.realclearscience.com/articles/2021/08/10/there_are_more_than_50_long-term_effects_of_covid-19_789293.html

This is the part of covid-space Im most sceptical about. I have no idea how many actual have "long covid" (however you define that), but the alarm bells ring a bit when various studies show wildly different results. Some say very high, some have close to zero after 6 months or whatever. When the results vary this much, my inital thought is that the methodology is inconsistent across studies and they aren't really talking about the same thing. Some look at people with "just" an infection, some at pateiens who have been hospitalized. Some are quite closely followed up by the primary health service, others are based on self-reporting.

[OtherJen]

Just came across this gem. A study of studies finds 80% of cases across ~48k people with COVID having at least one long-term symptom. Even if the data is off by a little bit as we plod through these early days of studies, that's quite something. Of course no one is quantifying long term yet. One month and six month suferrers are all lumped into the same group. I think I'll keep masking. Lol

https://www.realclearscience.com/articles/2021/08/10/there_are_more_than_50_long-term_effects_of_covid-19_789293.html

This is the part of covid-space Im most sceptical about. I have no idea how many actual have "long covid" (however you define that), but the alarm bells ring a bit when various studies show wildly different results. Some say very high, some have close to zero after 6 months or whatever. When the results vary this much, my inital thought is that the methodology is inconsistent across studies and they aren't really talking about the same thing. Some look at people with "just" an infection, some at pateiens who have been hospitalized. Some are quite closely followed up by the primary health service, others are based on self-reporting.

Yes. That's a general problem with large, retrospective (i.e., analysis of previously collected data not subject to careful controls) clinical or epidemiological studies. It isn't limited to COVID studies. It is difficult to draw causal inferences from such studies, and difficult to make meaningful statistical comparisons between studies. However, it can be more difficult, expensive and, in some cases, unethical to conduct prospective studies.

For example, it would be unethical to willingly withhold a known effective treatment from a non-consenting ailing patient to see if their long-term symptoms resolve differently than those of someone who received the treatment. Instead, researchers would have to look back at the clinical data collected from all patients in a given time frame and compare long-term outcomes between those given or not given the treatment. Some relevant measures may not have been collected at all or from all patients. There also may be uncontrolled confounding factors (confounder bias). Researchers may have to compare data from untreated patients seen during the early phase of the pandemic with data from those who received the treatment after it was introduced in later phases, and the patient populations may differ in demographics, variant infection, or standard clinical treatment protocols.

[jrhampt]

I went to the grocery store last night and 80-90% of people were masked again (including me).  It's quite a dramatic change from earlier this summer and it happened very quickly.  Our county is at the "substantial" spread level now but three of our counties are now "high".  No mask mandate statewide yet but some individual cities are starting to mandate.  Looks like New Haven has some bars and gyms asking for proof of vaccination or negative test before entry (I'm all for this approach).

[Metalcat]

Just came across this gem. A study of studies finds 80% of cases across ~48k people with COVID having at least one long-term symptom. Even if the data is off by a little bit as we plod through these early days of studies, that's quite something. Of course no one is quantifying long term yet. One month and six month suferrers are all lumped into the same group. I think I'll keep masking. Lol

https://www.realclearscience.com/articles/2021/08/10/there_are_more_than_50_long-term_effects_of_covid-19_789293.html

This is the part of covid-space Im most sceptical about. I have no idea how many actual have "long covid" (however you define that), but the alarm bells ring a bit when various studies show wildly different results. Some say very high, some have close to zero after 6 months or whatever. When the results vary this much, my inital thought is that the methodology is inconsistent across studies and they aren't really talking about the same thing. Some look at people with "just" an infection, some at pateiens who have been hospitalized. Some are quite closely followed up by the primary health service, others are based on self-reporting.

Yeah, like pp said, this isn't a covid thing, this is a science thing.

People have an illusion of science being a coordinated, cohesive thing, but it really isn't. It only looks that way when the global science community has been working on a subject matter for long enough to all converge on similar methods and metrics.

But even then, it's still a whole bunch of disparate noise.

[habanero]

Yeah, like pp said, this isn't a covid thing, this is a science thing.

People have an illusion of science being a coordinated, cohesive thing, but it really isn't. It only looks that way when the global science community has been working on a subject matter for long enough to all converge on similar methods and metrics.

But even then, it's still a whole bunch of disparate noise.

Yeah, aware of that - I have at least studied something sinency back in the day. When the pandemic hit in march last year one dude at a university hospital here predicted that in the coming months and years there will be an avalanche of studies out, a lot will be printed a lot earlier than they oterhwise would, many will not be peer-reviewed, some will be very good some will be crappy, some should never been published or even conducted in the first place. And lots of journalists will distort it furither as they haven't read the studies in the first place and probably wouldn't understand if they even bothered.

I pretty quickly stopped paying much attention to "a study says...." in this field as you can find some study supporing pretty much anything.

[Metalcat]

Yeah, like pp said, this isn't a covid thing, this is a science thing.

People have an illusion of science being a coordinated, cohesive thing, but it really isn't. It only looks that way when the global science community has been working on a subject matter for long enough to all converge on similar methods and metrics.

But even then, it's still a whole bunch of disparate noise.

Yeah, aware of that - I have at least studied something sinency back in the day. When the pandemic hit in march last year one dude at a university hospital here predicted that in the coming months and years there will be an avalanche of studies out, a lot will be printed a lot earlier than they oterhwise would, many will not be peer-reviewed, some will be very good some will be crappy, some should never been published or even conducted in the first place. And lots of journalists will distort it furither as they haven't read the studies in the first place and probably wouldn't understand if they even bothered.

I pretty quickly stopped paying much attention to "a study says...." in this field as you can find some study supporing pretty much anything.

I'm a former scientist and I stopped paying attention to "a study says" nearly 20 years ago.

How you feel about covid science reporting is how I feel about ALL science reporting.

[youngwildandfree]

This one made me laugh this morning:

[habanero]

From a local news comment:

Australia was founded as a prison. Now it has returned to its roots.
...
A TV feature from an Australian broadcaster has been circulating on social media. A random 27-year-old is caugt in the act of taking the elevator without a face mask despite being corona-infected. Now he is wanted with the name and picture of the police and the health service.

- He is an example of the worst of the worst, says the Australian Minister of Health seriously.

Eagerly, the TV reporter further says that "there is no sympathy for those who break the corona rules". The photos show eight young people who have been partying at Sydney's river bed. Police searchlights revealed them. They are arrested, handcuffed and fined. A well-known rugby player has also been stopped by the police for taking a car trip from home without good reason. He has admitted that he only wanted to visit a friend.

References to George Orwell are a cliché. But if he had made TV from a dystopian future society, it would probably look something like this.

The country is one of those that has opted for a zero vision for the corona. Australia and New Zealand closed the borders almost hermetically. At times, they have had new internal freedom while Europeans went through shutdowns. Now it looks much darker. Because how do you get out of something like that?

State Secretary Gladys Berejiklian has announced that face masks, distance rules and vaccine passes will be required "as long as the deadly covid virus exists". That means years. Maybe forever.
...
The road to hell goes through intentions for the infection-free society.

We (Norway) now have the highest number of infections ever. But hardly anyone cares. "Noone" is wearing a face mask, the hospitals are mostly empty of covid patients. despite a resent increase in admitted patients (all of 60 now in the entire country). Our "CDC" pointed out that during flu season 2-300 are admitted to hospitals every week and noone cares at all. This is the new normal. Anyone over 18 who wants to have been eligible for 1st dose and almost everyone for 2nd. Now it's an ordinary disease and no reason to make any fuss about. Further south Denmark officiialy declared public health crisis over and they are gonna view it like an ordinary disease with no special measures required.

Pretty much every case is delta btw. alpha et al are considered gone for good.

If anyone still thinks Australia and NZ had a brilliant approach to this must have been smoking something I'd like some of. Melbourne is now on day 200-something of lockdown since it all started and they have completely screwed up the vaccination drive.

[deborah]

There is some truth in what you’re saying about Australia.

Gladys berejiklian is the Premier of NSW, which is one of our states. Maybe the NSW State Governor might be an equivalent. She’s certainly not State Secretary!

Our federal government is responsible for the vaccine supply and quarantine. Both are problematic. We have a very limited supply of vaccines, and the quarantine facilities have mainly been hotels which have poor ventilation, so covid19 (particularly the delta strain) is finding it easy to infect others in these facilities.

We originally went for suppression, but somehow found ourselves at zero, after the very successful efforts of the state governments. I’m very glad that we did, given the problems we’ve had with the vaccine supply. It’s getting better, and we’re now vaccinating at a pretty fast rate, although we’re still hampered by the vaccine supply (where I live, appointments are already fully booked up until mid October). We have very good testing, and know where almost every positive case got it from.

One of our states, Victoria, has fully suppressed the delta strain twice after it escaped quarantine each time. However, about two months ago, NSW got it, and has not been successful in suppressing it, although they have managed to keep the R value at R1.3, rather than the R4 or more that it is. They had extremely good contact tracing, and expected that would enable them to have a softer lockdown.

Unfortunately they exported it to most other states, and New Zealand (which has had worse problems getting vaccine). Because we have all had low access to vaccines, our populations are very vulnerable, so just letting it rip wouldn’t work at all well. The NSW hospital system is very stretched at the moment. Unfortunately it’s got into western NSW (about two thirds of the state) which is a very remote area with very poor medical coverage - they have a flying doctor service (in a plane) that visits all the remote communities, maybe once a week, no hospitals with the facilities needed for covid19, and very low vaccination rates.

The other places which have been seeded by NSW (currently Victoria, ACT and NZ) may get it under control. The ACT is currently in a three week lockdown, the first we’ve had since the beginning, and we may finish in a week. Victoria is having problems, because there appear to have been multiple seeding events - they look like they’re almost on top of it, but they may not be. NZ have just announced another extension of their lockdown.

We’re going through the types of lockdowns that other nations went through last year. I don’t think that we’ve had more than a lot of other nations.

[habanero]

By aussie stndards ive had zero days of lockdown. Yes, kids had home schooling for almsost two
Months last year and I’ve been working a lot from home. But I’ve been free to travel within my own country and when I go out there is no risk of being harassed by police.

Some envied you (I never did) now the utter stupidity of “zero infections” are on full display. Civil liberties have its values if you don’t want to be a moron as reported from the US.

You are now the most dystopian society in the western world. The rest get along because they got their. Vaccine shit together and never had the idea that every infection is the end of the world. We have also had those voices but they have generally been viewed as bat-shit crazy.

Our mantra has been keep it under control, treat those who need it and get people vaccinated. Then what happens happens. By your current mindset there will never be an end to this. When our vaccination drive is over we will still have around 20 percent unvaccinated but they will be kids and it is assumed to be fine. Adults who didn’t want the vaccine are no reason to care about. It’s their own choice. They will get treated but will get zero sympathy and viewed as stupid.

[deborah]

A lot of this is not true.

We have always wanted vaccines. Early on, Europe denied us vaccines we had already bought when they were about to arrive (and then A WEEK LATER Italy decided not to use that vaccine after all), as did the US. We ARE getting vaccinated quite quickly currently, but are still having supply problems, with vaccines that we ordered being delayed for a long time. Both Moderna and Novavax have yet to arrive at all. To see our current vaccination rates, see

https://www.health.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/2021/08/covid-19-vaccine-rollout-update-28-august-2021.pdf

You will also note (from the charts) that we plan to open up when 80% or those who are eligible (over 16 year olds) are vaccinated, so your comments about that are also incorrect. This is expected to happen this year.

[habanero]

A lot of this is not true.

We have always wanted vaccines. Early on, Europe denied us vaccines we had already bought when they were about to arrive (and then A WEEK LATER Italy decided not to use that vaccine after all), as did the US. We ARE getting vaccinated quite quickly currently, but are still having supply problems, with vaccines that we ordered being delayed for a long time. Both Moderna and Novavax have yet to arrive at all.

You will also note (from the charts) that we plan to open up when 80% or those who are eligible (over 16 year olds) are vaccinated, so your comments about that are also incorrect. This is expected to happen this year.

I din't mean to imply that your government doesn't want vaccines or aren't trying hard to get hold of 'em and administer as soon as possible. Lack of does has been the main issue almost everywhere until very recently. We had a lot of whining about US/Israel/UK being far ahead, but surprisingly many seemed to not grasp that it was mathematically impossible for the EU to have the same progression as the US as that would mean the EU alone would need more doses that available in the EU and US combined.

The question is what will happen when vaccination rates reach a sufficient level and if one is mentally able to adjust. Based on local experience quite a lot of politicians and other decision-makers seem to have big problems with changing their mindset and adopt to the new situation. Now that our infection rates are - by local standards - high and rising fast you see this very clearly. Some places the authorities are quite relaxed about it, other places they freak out. And we have always accepted quite a few infection as long as it is kept under control and within the health system's capacity. That has, in hindsight, worked out pretty well while it wasn't a given from the onset it would.

Ironically for me, the Covid-risk has probably never been bigger than now when I've had my two Moderna shots, overall vacc rate is high and rising fast where I live. Earlier, the risk of me personally being exposed was virtually zero due to the nature of my everyday life and very low case rates nationally. Now the probability of being exposed is probably pretty close to 100 percent over some timeframe as noone thinks the virus will go away any time soon and when that happens I probably won't notice at all, I might get mild symptoms and there is a very low probability of me getting seriously ill and maybe even need hospitalization, but that is extremely unlikely and I risk Im happy to live with and so is the majority of our society.

Society will have to learn to live with this virus, maybe for a very long time. Gonna be exiting to see how that will play out where there has been a "zero covid" policy as it will not get to zero once things normalize again. Now its spreading fast among the younger cohorts as was expected when school holiday was over. Around 50% of cases are now 18s or younger and only about 3% aged 60+. It was just decided that 16-18 should be vaccinated here - not because our "CDC" think they really need to, but they reason it will be quite effective in limiting spread as this is an age group with a lot of mobility and lots of close contacts.

[Cranky]

When the hospital is full of unvaccinated Covid patients, there’s no room for people who need care for other things, so you kinda have to go on caring about that.

[OtherJen]

.
Society will have to learn to live with this virus, maybe for a very long time. Gonna be exiting to see how that will play out where there has been a "zero covid" policy as it will not get to zero once things normalize again. Now its spreading fast among the younger cohorts as was expected when school holiday was over. Around 50% of cases are now 18s or younger and only about 3% aged 60+. It was just decided that 16-18 should be vaccinated here - not because our "CDC" think they really need to, but they reason it will be quite effective in limiting spread as this is an age group with a lot of mobility and lots of close contacts.

Good luck. Children’s hospitals in the US are starting to fill up with COVID patients who are too young to be vaccinated or whose parents refused to authorize vaccination, and many US school districts haven’t even started the fall semester yet.

[habanero]

Good luck. Children’s hospitals in the US are starting to fill up with COVID patients who are too young to be vaccinated or whose parents refused to authorize vaccination, and many US school districts haven’t even started the fall semester yet.

Im pretty certain our health folks are aware of that and are monitoring our local situation. Currently, 7-8 patients in total (all age groups combined) are admitted to hospital due to covid-19 as the main reason on a daily basis in the entire country. Last 4 weeks 8 patients under 18 were admitted in total. This is in a population of 5.4 million and current infection rate is bit over 1000 / day (and rising) so I don't think they are overly worried for the time being. I don't think what happens in the US is very relevant for our situation, at least it hasn't been so far at least as there are just too many differences in culture and how people behave despite the virus and the disease being the same.

We have adults in the room watching this and if things should, against their assumptions, escalate there will be measures taken before stuff gets ugly because it has been done so far during the pandemic and I see no reason to expect otherwise in this wave. The main goal has been preventing strain on the healthcare system and that has been successfully achieved since the pandemic started and the powers that be are not very worried at the time being, but that might of course change should circumstances change. I assume they have sufficient local data to have an educated opinion on how things will evolve.

Our "CDC" maintains the view that kids are at very low risk for hospitalization and they haven't changed their view since the delta variant by far became the dominant, variant in circulation. So far I don't see any reason why they should be of any other opinion and I assume they know way more than me about this.

We do give vaccines down to 12 years where the kids due to some underlying condition are considered at-risk. As the population, in this regard, is a lot more enlightened than in the US its very hard to see many parents denying their kids the shot if they are considered at-risk. According to the news around 3000 kids aged 12-15 are in scope for this. Both Moderna and Pfizer shots are authorized down to 12 years (like in the US, I think) so there is also the option of doing mass vaccinations down to that age and afaik it's currently "under debate" but not a very high priority as there is no need for the time being. But as all things pandemic, that might of course change.

[Cranky]

The trouble is that while any individual child is probably at low risk, if every single kid under 12 gets Covid there are going to be a lot of very, very sick kids. That seems to be where we’re heading with Delta.

As I said very early in this discussion - 1% of everybody is a lot of people.

[stoaX]

This one made me laugh this morning:

And now I'm laughing this morning!

[Imma]

The trouble is that while any individual child is probably at low risk, if every single kid under 12 gets Covid there are going to be a lot of very, very sick kids. That seems to be where we’re heading with Delta.

As I said very early in this discussion - 1% of everybody is a lot of people.

That's true, but in a country where almost everyone over the age of 12 is vaccinated, like Norway, the Netherlands, and probably several more countries in Europe, the virus simply doesn't get the chance to spread as fast. And as @habanero said, we have adults watching this. Right now our healthcare systems can cope, if there's any risk of that not being the case, there'll be new measures, and people will follow them.

Over the past 1,5 years, a large group of kids has already come into contact with Covid and has built up natural antibodies (according to research, children under 10 build up the highest amount of antibodies after infection, more than adults) and the very youngest children get Covid antibodies through breastfeeding.

With 90% of those of 12 vaccinated + let's say half of non-vaccinated adults has natural antibodies = 95% of those over 12 vaccinated, and maybe 1/4 to 1/3 of children with natural antibodies, the group of children susceptible to Covid is not that big. Schools are opening without social distancing here for the autumn term, but the virus won't be able to spread like in Feb 2020 before social distancing. Does that mean it's risk free? Sadly, no. A handful of kids are unfortunately going to be very ill. But other childhood viruses also make a small group of children very ill and we think that's an acceptable risk of life.

[habanero]

That's true, but in a country where almost everyone over the age of 12 is vaccinated, like Norway, the Netherlands, and probably several more countries in Europe, the virus simply doesn't get the chance to spread as fast. And as @habanero said, we have adults watching this. Right now our healthcare systems can cope, if there's any risk of that not being the case, there'll be new measures, and people will follow them.

We (Norway) hasn't vaccinated down to 12 yet and not all adults have had their 2nd dose, the latter is 2-3 weeks into the future. The final decision on what to do with 12-15s is not even made but expected very shortly. Just started on 16-17s and a handful of at-risk kids down to 12 are offered vaccination. Cases among the youngest are rising fast but still not much in terms of hospitalizations but that might change and if so the approach will change and folks will comply. The admitted patients are (still) predominantly non-vaccinated adults. Around 10% of adult population, about 450k persons have for one reason or the other choosen not to get their 1st shot yet so there is still plently of folks who will get seriously ill in the event of massive community spread in all age cohorts. So far, symptomatic delta infections amongst the 60+ are quite rare and the vacc rate is over 90% in that group.

We have had schools open since may last year after an almost 2 months long closure (in hindsight recognized as a mistake and lasting too long) and it has worked out fine with the "original" virus, the alpha and so far with the delta variant. The decision to keep schools open is not very controversial and closing schools en masse is the very last thing our government wants to do. Not starting jabbing of 12-16s is somewhat more controversial. Masks have never been mandated in primary schools and I doubt they ever will. It was briefly suggested last year among our few "zero covidists" but was pretty quickly shot down and hasn't been mentioned since.

Our experience so far during the pandemic is a pretty low disease burden, the hospitals have never been under any serious stress (the main goal) and total deaths since the pandemic started is lower than during a regular flu season and we have had no excess mortality and we count every single covid death so no underreporting. What is done and isn't done now is obviously influenced by this experience while the powers that be fully admits that the delta strain spreads far quicker than earlier variants, they (currently) think the vacccination rate in the adult population is sufficient to prevent any big drama. If facts on the ground change, the assesment will change and the population will comply. We have the odd conspiracy theorists, but they are few, and deniers are very few and far between.

If you landed in our capital now you would be very hard pressed to see any clear signs there is a pandemic going on. Life goes on pretty much as normal bar very large gatherings such as big concerts and there is somewhat reduced capacity in bars/restaurants but apart from that, not much that's obvious. Mask wearing is approaching zero (there is no mandate).

[habanero]

.
Society will have to learn to live with this virus, maybe for a very long time. Gonna be exiting to see how that will play out where there has been a "zero covid" policy as it will not get to zero once things normalize again. Now its spreading fast among the younger cohorts as was expected when school holiday was over. Around 50% of cases are now 18s or younger and only about 3% aged 60+. It was just decided that 16-18 should be vaccinated here - not because our "CDC" think they really need to, but they reason it will be quite effective in limiting spread as this is an age group with a lot of mobility and lots of close contacts.

Good luck. Children’s hospitals in the US are starting to fill up with COVID patients who are too young to be vaccinated or whose parents refused to authorize vaccination, and many US school districts haven’t even started the fall semester yet.

Schools have now been open for almost two months with zero mask wearing. Cases have continued downward and barly and children have been hospitalized. There were a few local outbreaks in the beginning, but they were dealth with on a per-class or per-school basis but that soon calmed down as well. About a month ago kids got self-test kits to test twice a week at home, that is being wound down this week afaik. Vaccinations started down to 12 years of age a few weeks ago, but the limited drama dropped before that got going.

So all in all the school reopening after the holidays went great with hardly any drama to speak of.

So far, since the start of the pandemic, 96 persons under 18 have been hospitalized due to covid (of which 15 during the last 4 weeks) and in total since March last year 15 under 18s have been admitted to the ICU. To my knowledge our "CDC" does not publish death numbers for under 18s, but for under 40s the total during the entire pandemic is 7.

So it's all good.

[HPstache]

.
Society will have to learn to live with this virus, maybe for a very long time. Gonna be exiting to see how that will play out where there has been a "zero covid" policy as it will not get to zero once things normalize again. Now its spreading fast among the younger cohorts as was expected when school holiday was over. Around 50% of cases are now 18s or younger and only about 3% aged 60+. It was just decided that 16-18 should be vaccinated here - not because our "CDC" think they really need to, but they reason it will be quite effective in limiting spread as this is an age group with a lot of mobility and lots of close contacts.

Good luck. Children’s hospitals in the US are starting to fill up with COVID patients who are too young to be vaccinated or whose parents refused to authorize vaccination, and many US school districts haven’t even started the fall semester yet.

Schools have now been open for almost two months with zero mask wearing. Cases have continued downward and barly and children have been hospitalized. There were a few local outbreaks in the beginning, but they were dealth with on a per-class or per-school basis but that soon calmed down as well. About a month ago kids got self-test kits to test twice a week at home, that is being wound down this week afaik. Vaccinations started down to 12 years of age a few weeks ago, but the limited drama dropped before that got going.

So all in all the school reopening after the holidays went great with hardly any drama to speak of.

So far, since the start of the pandemic, 96 persons under 18 have been hospitalized due to covid (of which 15 during the last 4 weeks) and in total since March last year 15 under 18s have been admitted to the ICU. To my knowledge our "CDC" does not publish death numbers for under 18s, but for under 40s the total during the entire pandemic is 7.

So it's all good.

7 total deaths under 40 years old?  How could that be?  There are 3 alone in my county...

[habanero]

7 total deaths under 40 years old?  How could that be?  There are 3 alone in my county...

I live in Norway, that might explain most of it;)

We're a small country (only 5.4 million inhabitants).

[nereo]

7 total deaths under 40 years old?  How could that be?  There are 3 alone in my county...

I live in Norway, that might explain most of it;)

We're a small country (only 5.4 million inhabitants).

Interesting how different the disease has impacted various regions and countries.

I live in a state with 1.3 million people, yet we've had 21 deaths of people under 40, or more than 12x as many as what you say Norway has experienced. Half of those deaths have occurred in the last three months alone.

[habanero]

Interesting how different the disease has impacted various regions and countries.

I live in a state with 1.3 million people, yet we've had 21 deaths of people under 40, or more than 12x as many as what you say Norway has experienced. Half of those deaths have occurred in the last three months alone.

It has been pointed out by various commentators that noone really understands why it went relatively well here with - compared to many other places - limited measures, slow start to vaccinations like the rest of Europe, close to zero mask wearing last spring but more this winter with the alpha end delta variants circulating, schools for the youngest (at lest up to grade 7) have stayed open the entire time bar few weeks last spring. Large parts of the country has had very, very limited case count and local outbreaks have been dealt with in a few days. I live in the most populous city, which as expected has been the main "hotspot" but even here its been pretty soft compared to cities of similar size.

Reasons that have been pointed to are among others high level of trust in government, generous welfare programs so you don't have to feel you must go to work if you're sick, very good digital infrastructure facilitating wfh for a lot of staff, very limitied politization of the government's response and despite any personal grunt with this or that part of the approach folks have in general complied to a very high degree. The immigrant population, of which a large part lives in Oslo, the capital, has been much harder hit so if you look at the rest of the population the already mild disease burden has been very low. I don't know the fine print on Finland and Denmark, but the ballpark numbers are in the same are while our neighbour Sweden got to some international fame and has had much higher numbers on all fronts, but they still rank bank in the middle of European countries despite being - rather unfair - viewed as having a laissez-faire approach to the whole pandemic.

[Metalcat]

Interesting how different the disease has impacted various regions and countries.

I live in a state with 1.3 million people, yet we've had 21 deaths of people under 40, or more than 12x as many as what you say Norway has experienced. Half of those deaths have occurred in the last three months alone.

It has been pointed out by various commentators that noone really understands why it went relatively well here with - compared to many other places - limited measures, slow start to vaccinations like the rest of Europe, close to zero mask wearing last spring but more this winter with the alpha end delta variants circulating, schools for the youngest (at lest up to grade 7) have stayed open the entire time bar few weeks last spring. Large parts of the country has had very, very limited case count and local outbreaks have been dealt with in a few days. I live in the most populous city, which as expected has been the main "hotspot" but even here its been pretty soft compared to cities of similar size.

Reasons that have been pointed to are among others high level of trust in government, generous welfare programs so you don't have to feel you must go to work if you're sick, very good digital infrastructure facilitating wfh for a lot of staff, very limitied politization of the government's response and despite any personal grunt with this or that part of the approach folks have in general complied to a very high degree. The immigrant population, of which a large part lives in Oslo, the capital, has been much harder hit so if you look at the rest of the population the already mild disease burden has been very low. I don't know the fine print on Finland and Denmark, but the ballpark numbers are in the same are while our neighbour Sweden got to some international fame and has had much higher numbers on all fronts, but they still rank bank in the middle of European countries despite being - rather unfair - viewed as having a laissez-faire approach to the whole pandemic.

That, and Norwegians tend to live further apart from one another, and are far more outdoor people than elsewhere in the world. I remember reading that the distance between Norwegians is further apart than almost anywhere else in the world. Which fits with Oslo's numbers being worse.

I think the measures of social distancing and socializing outdoors only may have just more naturally easy for you folks than others.

[habanero]

That, and Norwegians tend to live further apart from one another, and are far more outdoor people than elsewhere in the world. I remember reading that the distance between Norwegians is further apart than almost anywhere else in the world. Which fits with Oslo's numbers being worse.

I think the measures of social distancing and socializing outdoors only may have just more naturally easy for you folks than others.

Indeed, most communities are - by North American - standards very small. The capital has like 700k and 1.2 mio if you count the greater urban area. The 2nd largest city has like 250k and lots of places have say 3k-10k inhabitants. But as with everything else pandemic it's pretty easy to find counterexamples like say North or South Dakota with much lower population density. So it's obviously an interplay between many factors contributing to the end results with maybe some luck (or lack thereof) thrown in as well.

[Metalcat]

That, and Norwegians tend to live further apart from one another, and are far more outdoor people than elsewhere in the world. I remember reading that the distance between Norwegians is further apart than almost anywhere else in the world. Which fits with Oslo's numbers being worse.

I think the measures of social distancing and socializing outdoors only may have just more naturally easy for you folks than others.

Indeed, most communities are - by North American - standards very small. The capital has like 700k and 1.2 mio if you count the greater urban area. The 2nd largest city has like 250k and lots of places have say 3k-10k inhabitants. But as with everything else pandemic it's pretty easy to find counterexamples like say North or South Dakota with much lower population density. So it's obviously an interplay between many factors contributing to the end results with maybe some luck (or lack thereof) thrown in as well.

Oh for sure, I wouldn't assume population density alone was a deciding factor, I was adding it to your previous points. A lot of people reading might not know that Norway has certain distinctive characteristics, even compared to other Nordic countries, such as the natural inclination of Norwegians to spread out and have space between themselves, and to socialize outdoors.

Low population density doesn't mean much for disease spread if the people living far apart tend to congregate in large groups indoors.

[habanero]

such as the natural inclination of Norwegians to spread out and have space between themselves, and to socialize outdoors.

Yeah, it was pointed out that social distancing wasn't neceessary to learn here, it was the natural state. There is def some truth to it.

A collegue of mine just returned from Spain where they were still and always were very keen on masking up outdoors etc. But when the locals met for dinner, they still had to kiss each other on the cheeks.

For some time we had a ban of max 10 then 5 guests in private homes which was pretty controversial. I can barely remember the last time we had 5, not even to speak of 10, guests at home save for kid's birthday parties so for me it was a big meh as it didn't change our life in any way.

[habanero]

Also, now that the pandemic is considered pretty much overe here the powers that be have started pubishing summaries and reports. One of the things they openly admit, and have been doing the entire time, is that they actually know virtually nothing about what actually worked and not in terms of measures put in place at various times. They only to some degree know the effect of the sum of it all, but as it generally came as packages with several measures they have no idea (nor any way of having an idea) about which individual measures were actually effective and which they could have skipped completely.

There is pretty broad consenus of school closures last spring lasting too long (6 or 7 weeks it was) and also probably that closure of non-essential shops in the most populous areas of the country for almost three months this winter likely had not much effect. But apart from that? No idea, really. We have had tons of wfh for those who could, was sort of mandated if possible but not really enforced, bars/restaurants have been forced to close or deided to close at various periods, no large events like concerts or sporting events, mostly home schooling for high schools and college students and the list goes on and on of what has, at various times and with some local variations been implemented as covid measures taken.

[stoaX]

Also, now that the pandemic is considered pretty much overe here the powers that be have started pubishing summaries and reports. One of the things they openly admit, and have been doing the entire time, is that they actually know virtually nothing about what actually worked and not in terms of measures put in place at various times. They only to some degree know the effect of the sum of it all, but as it generally came as packages with several measures they have no idea (nor any way of having an idea) about which individual measures were actually effective and which they could have skipped completely.

There is pretty broad consenus of school closures last spring lasting too long (6 or 7 weeks it was) and also probably that closure of non-essential shops in the most populous areas of the country for almost three months this winter likely had not much effect. But apart from that? No idea, really. We have had tons of wfh for those who could, was sort of mandated if possible but not really enforced, bars/restaurants have been forced to close or deided to close at various periods, no large events like concerts or sporting events, mostly home schooling for high schools and college students and the list goes on and on of what has, at various times and with some local variations been implemented as covid measures taken.

The "powers that be" acknowledging the uncertainty is refreshing!  The powers that be in my neck of the woods should take note...

[habanero]

The "powers that be" acknowledging the uncertainty is refreshing!  The powers that be in my neck of the woods should take note...

Our "CDC" wanted to gain some actual insight by applying various measures in different places but the politicians / other parts of the health autorities were not overly keen on it. The ethics of something like that can get quite murky pretty quickly so it's in a way understandable, but if you want to keep the spread under control while doing as little damage to society as possible it would have been valuable insight, also for handling the next pandemic whenever it comes.

It's pretty obvious that some errors have been made - which is unavoidable - and equally obvious that a lot of things got thrown under the bus in the name of preventing the spread of coronavirus and (serious) covid-19 cases. Some of the stuff has been legally very questionable, but it's not been the climate for such considerations, really and there never was much public debate on the murkier issues despite some attempts go get some public debate going.

Norway actually has under-mortality (don't know the actual term for the opposite of excess mortality) during the covid-period. The obvious explanation is that covid measures also prevented other viruses from circualting, we had no flu season whatsoever this winter, and covid death toll has been lower than a fairly average flu season here.

[mistymoney]

over 900k covid fatalities in the US, with 2-3k currently dying daily.

And I can't beleive it isn't over by now. New strain of omicron detected that is even more contagious.

[Zamboni]

^Yeah, that stinks.

^^Since the beginning of the pandemic, people have been floating theories about vitamin D supplementation reducing COVID mortality. I would guess that Norwegians as a population are pretty aware that they need vitamin D supplementation, especially in the winter . . .

[Linea_Norway]

^Yeah, that stinks.

^^Since the beginning of the pandemic, people have been floating theories about vitamin D supplementation reducing COVID mortality. I would guess that Norwegians as a population are pretty aware that they need vitamin D supplementation, especially in the winter . . .

In Norway vitamin D is added to (most of) the milk.

[Chaplin]

^Yeah, that stinks.

^^Since the beginning of the pandemic, people have been floating theories about vitamin D supplementation reducing COVID mortality. I would guess that Norwegians as a population are pretty aware that they need vitamin D supplementation, especially in the winter . . .

In Norway vitamin D is added to (most of) the milk.

Same in Canada. It was originally done to prevent rickets (and was very successful).

[geekette]

It's also added to milk in the US, but not, as far as I know, to all the non-milks that are so popular with adults.

[Linea_Norway]

It's also added to milk in the US, but not, as far as I know, to all the non-milks that are so popular with adults.

I have the impression that vegan people generally are very aware of what they should eat and take of supplements to get enough vitamins and other critical stuff.
But I guess that today many people use alternatives for milk, but not because they are vegan. Not sure they are equally aware.

[Linea_Norway]

Our national health authority person, like the head of the CDC, told us that with omicron being so mild, and so contagious, and us being so well vaccinated, we should rather get it now than later. She said the current measures were not enough to stop the extra contagious variant. They expect the whole country to get infected by the summer. They are just trying to slow it down to prevent full hospitals.

DH and I were just joking that we might need to visit someone infected. But just a few days later, without being in contact with anyone, DH got symptoms. We have no idea how he could have gotten it. It turmed out that our community was the most infected in the country. He got a first negative selftest. Only his second test 2 days later was positive, which was also confirmed by PCR-test. We didn't live separately, as I thought: just let it come to me, then I will be done with it. Four days later I got symptoms as well. My first 2 tests were negative, but on the third day I tested positive in a self test. We have been isolating at home.

We both had mild symptoms. DH's included fever for 1-2 days, headache, sour throat and later coughing stuff out his lungs. His third vaccin was taken at the start of December. I got my vaccin in the week before DH got it. My symptoms were coughing and sneezing. I am coughing like we used to do with a nasty cold, so my throat is a bit sour as well. And I feel a bit tired. Otherwise no fever or headache.

Conclusion is that the selftests have a lot of false negatives, on the days that you probably are contagious.

[GreenSheep]

It's also added to milk in the US, but not, as far as I know, to all the non-milks that are so popular with adults.

I have the impression that vegan people generally are very aware of what they should eat and take of supplements to get enough vitamins and other critical stuff.
But I guess that today many people use alternatives for milk, but not because they are vegan. Not sure they are equally aware.

I rarely buy plant milks (I make my own soy milk instead), but I've looked at a ton of labels, and most of them appear to have vitamin D added. I suspect they do this because, like you said, there are people who choose plant milks for reasons other than health, and they might not be aware that they might need to get their vitamin D elsewhere if they don't already have another good source.

[Imma]

Our national health authority person, like the head of the CDC, told us that with omicron being so mild, and so contagious, and us being so well vaccinated, we should rather get it now than later. She said the current measures were not enough to stop the extra contagious variant. They expect the whole country to get infected by the summer. They are just trying to slow it down to prevent full hospitals.

DH and I were just joking that we might need to visit someone infected. But just a few days later, without being in contact with anyone, DH got symptoms. We have no idea how he could have gotten it. It turmed out that our community was the most infected in the country. He got a first negative selftest. Only his second test 2 days later was positive, which was also confirmed by PCR-test. We didn't live separately, as I thought: just let it come to me, then I will be done with it. Four days later I got symptoms as well. My first 2 tests were negative, but on the third day I tested positive in a self test. We have been isolating at home.

We both had mild symptoms. DH's included fever for 1-2 days, headache, sour throat and later coughing stuff out his lungs. His third vaccin was taken at the start of December. I got my vaccin in the week before DH got it. My symptoms were coughing and sneezing. I am coughing like we used to do with a nasty cold, so my throat is a bit sour as well. And I feel a bit tired. Otherwise no fever or headache.

Conclusion is that the selftests have a lot of false negatives, on the days that you probably are contagious.

I'm surprised that you still got so many symptoms, for Omikron! Most people I've heard who tested positive recently had absolutely 0 symptoms. They had to get tested because they were exposed or something and were totally surprised that they were positive. But it's good to hear that you still had a really mild case of Covid.  I agree that this is the best time to get natural antibodies - with a recent booster vaccine and a mild dominant variant the risk is now probably at an all-time low. And it seems that those who are fully vaccinated and have natural antibodies reach a very high level of immunity. We don't know if the next variant is as mild as Omikron.

Sometimes we feel like we may have already had an asymptomatic infection and that's why we're immune now. We were both exposed more than a few times already and had to get tested (an official test, not a home test) and we both never tested positive. We both need to go into work quite frequently and meet a lot of people there. It's either immunity or an incredible amount of luck.

[HPstache]

Our national health authority person, like the head of the CDC, told us that with omicron being so mild, and so contagious, and us being so well vaccinated, we should rather get it now than later. She said the current measures were not enough to stop the extra contagious variant. They expect the whole country to get infected by the summer. They are just trying to slow it down to prevent full hospitals.

DH and I were just joking that we might need to visit someone infected. But just a few days later, without being in contact with anyone, DH got symptoms. We have no idea how he could have gotten it. It turmed out that our community was the most infected in the country. He got a first negative selftest. Only his second test 2 days later was positive, which was also confirmed by PCR-test. We didn't live separately, as I thought: just let it come to me, then I will be done with it. Four days later I got symptoms as well. My first 2 tests were negative, but on the third day I tested positive in a self test. We have been isolating at home.

We both had mild symptoms. DH's included fever for 1-2 days, headache, sour throat and later coughing stuff out his lungs. His third vaccin was taken at the start of December. I got my vaccin in the week before DH got it. My symptoms were coughing and sneezing. I am coughing like we used to do with a nasty cold, so my throat is a bit sour as well. And I feel a bit tired. Otherwise no fever or headache.

Conclusion is that the selftests have a lot of false negatives, on the days that you probably are contagious.

We felt the same way with the first positive test in our family.  No use trying to separate / quarantine within our family.  I even offered to my wife that I would go live in our travel trailer in the driveway for a few days (I was the one who first tested positive) with the child showing symptoms as well, but she said no.  It felt like it was "our time" as a family to get it and get through it.  It was probably too late anyway.

[Taran Wanderer]

I know a number of people at work who have had Covid, most likely Omicron, over the past month. Those who were vaccinated and boosted had minimal symptoms like @Linea_Norway .  One person who was vaccinated but not boosted was a little sicker but continued working from home for the week. One person who was not vaccinated was hospitalized and had surgery to remove a clot, and continues to be out from work, possible for several months. Age wasn’t a factor in any of these, though mostly people in their 40s and 50s, so not the 20-something youth.

It certainly seems like we’re all going to get this sooner or later. Better to be vaccinated and boosted before that happens.

[GuitarStv]

It certainly seems like we’re all going to get this sooner or later. Better to be vaccinated and boosted before that happens.

I've waffled on this idea so far.

My wife and I are vaccinated and boosted.  My son will have his second vaccination in another week.  We know that the shot dramatically loses effectiveness after 6 months, so should we be trying to get infected now as we're likely at peak protection from the virus rather than waiting and likely picking it up several months down the road when we're all less protected?

On the other hand . . . long covid is still relatively unknown, with or without the vaccine.  (There's also still a very small chance of dying by catching covid - vaccinated or not.)