Author Topic: Coronavirus preparedness  (Read 130851 times)

StarBright

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #600 on: March 15, 2020, 10:34:29 AM »
Our older relatives were unconcerned last week.  I think that Boomers are optimistic and still a little rebellious/invincible in their thinking sometimes.

I've seen the opposite and have read posts elsewhere from older people who are taking it seriously and are concerned about the younger people who are not concerned about it because they are "young and healthy", and therefore are running around spreading it to the most vulnerable.  Someone on this forum even said they had zero concern about coronavirus because they were young and healthy.

When I was in Walmart late yesterday, it was mostly younger people out shopping.  Looks like more older people are hunkering down.

In our circle it seems to be the folks with dependent kids (so mid 30s-50s) who are taking it seriously and the younger folks and boomers who are out and about. My boomer parents still haven't cancelled their vacation next week. I'm pretty annoyed by that right now.

OtherJen

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #601 on: March 15, 2020, 11:04:36 AM »
Our older relatives were unconcerned last week.  I think that Boomers are optimistic and still a little rebellious/invincible in their thinking sometimes.

I've seen the opposite and have read posts elsewhere from older people who are taking it seriously and are concerned about the younger people who are not concerned about it because they are "young and healthy", and therefore are running around spreading it to the most vulnerable.  Someone on this forum even said they had zero concern about coronavirus because they were young and healthy.

When I was in Walmart late yesterday, it was mostly younger people out shopping.  Looks like more older people are hunkering down.

In our circle it seems to be the folks with dependent kids (so mid 30s-50s) who are taking it seriously and the younger folks and boomers who are out and about. My boomer parents still haven't cancelled their vacation next week. I'm pretty annoyed by that right now.

I was glad that my parents cancelled their upcoming trip with mom's siblings+spouses (all older than 65 years, most with at least one comorbid health issue). I was less pleased at how long it took them to decide to take this seriously enough to discuss cancellation.

runbikerun

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #602 on: March 15, 2020, 11:40:26 AM »
For anyone insane enough to still be considering Ireland as a destination, all bars and restaurants are being shut as of midnight tonight until at least the 29th of March.

Hell, for anyone insane enough to be considering travel at all, bear in mind that THE FUCKING IRISH ARE SHUTTERING THE PUBS FOR PATRICK'S DAY. That should give some sense of scale.

Sibley

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #603 on: March 15, 2020, 11:43:25 AM »
For anyone insane enough to still be considering Ireland as a destination, all bars and restaurants are being shut as of midnight tonight until at least the 29th of March.

Hell, for anyone insane enough to be considering travel at all, bear in mind that THE FUCKING IRISH ARE SHUTTERING THE PUBS FOR PATRICK'S DAY. That should give some sense of scale.

Chicago has cancelled the St Patrick's day celebrations, including dying the river green. That alone convinced some die hard deniers that this might be serious.

OtherJen

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #604 on: March 15, 2020, 11:47:46 AM »
For anyone insane enough to still be considering Ireland as a destination, all bars and restaurants are being shut as of midnight tonight until at least the 29th of March.

Hell, for anyone insane enough to be considering travel at all, bear in mind that THE FUCKING IRISH ARE SHUTTERING THE PUBS FOR PATRICK'S DAY. That should give some sense of scale.

Chicago has cancelled the St Patrick's day celebrations, including dying the river green. That alone convinced some die hard deniers that this might be serious.

So did Detroit. There was supposed to be a huge parade today, and one next weekend honoring a city tradition. Both cancelled, and the state attorney general just gave a press conference to announce that the police would be fully enforcing the large-gathering ban.

ixtap

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #605 on: March 15, 2020, 11:55:26 AM »
Our older relatives were unconcerned last week.  I think that Boomers are optimistic and still a little rebellious/invincible in their thinking sometimes.

Iím sure the advertising that has bombarded that generation since birth has contributed to the ďIím invincibleĒ attitude that many boomers in my life seem to have. Sure, they acknowledge chronic aches/pains/illness but many donít seem to think that they are at actual risk of communicable disease. Generational trust in vaccination probably also contributes to that attitude.

I don't know many boomers who are not concerned. It's those 'greatest generation' ones I'm having trouble with!

In my world, it is largely a political divide, rather than a generational divide. Since DH and I both grew up in Trump territoies, I am seeing a lot of push back from Gen X.

mistymoney

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #606 on: March 15, 2020, 12:10:21 PM »
I went to the store and was able to pick up a some stuff. Still very low volumes but some things were restocked.

SunnyDays

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #607 on: March 15, 2020, 12:34:25 PM »
For any Canadians reading this, yesterday the federal government issued a level 3 travel health notice for the entire world. If you are considering travelling, or have loved ones who are still considering travelling internationally this change means:

1. Most trip cancellation policies can now be claimed. Elevation of a country to level 3 is a common trigger point for these policies.

2. More importantly, most (all?) travel health policies won't cover you if you get sick with COVID-19 while abroad. Most significantly, if you get sick in the US you'll be personally on the hook for the entire bill. I'm highlighting the US here because it has the most expensive health care in the world and is a common destination for Canadians.

https://travel.gc.ca/travelling/health-safety/travel-health-notices

The Canadian gov't has also said that with lots of airlines reducing or eliminating flights, it's possible to get stuck in any travel destination, so best not to go.

I'm basically done preparing and should have enough stuff for a few months with judicious use.  I have to be out early on Tuesday anyway, so will drive by the grocery store and see what the parking lot looks like.  If not too busy, I might get a bit more since I rearranged my freezer and now have some extra room.

My elderly father, who tends not to take much very seriously, and regularly goes to the superstore whenever he needs anything, even a litre of milk, has said that he's not going anywhere now.  I've got one doctor appointment next week, then that will be it for me, too.  Numbers are still very low here and so far no known community spread, but I'm a homebody anyway and I don't want to endanger my dad for no good reason.  I stocked up his freezer and pantry as well, so neither of us has any reason to wander around.

Schools are closed for 3 weeks starting next week and churches are shutting down, in addition to sports and dances, etc.  Good to see people taking it seriously.  Bet there will be a baby boom in about 9 months!

Cranky

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #608 on: March 15, 2020, 06:01:04 PM »
Well, this Boomer took it seriously enough to stock up 3 weeks ago, and Iím darned glad.

We still went to Wisconsin for a family event last week. Barreled home today as fast as we could, because Iím a little afraid that there are going to be regional or state travel bans.

I made everyone take off their shoes outside and sprayed them with Lysol spray. We all showered and changed before we did anything else.

Traffic was very, very light on I-80 today, but there were lots of trucks. Tons of amazon and Walmart trucks.

Dhís university is switching to online for the rest of the semester, but department chairs have to go in. Iím not going anywhere, though. I expect Iíll run to the store by the end of the week for produce.

snowball

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #609 on: March 15, 2020, 09:26:21 PM »
I'm a Canadian living in the Middle East, and I'm staying put, but then I'm not here because I'm travelling...I live here.  If I went back to Canada, I'd have to figure out somewhere to live.  And I'm not in a high risk demographic anyway.

One of my coworkers who was here on a temp contract managed to get her contract end date brought forward and took a very last minute flight home yesterday - back to Canada, flying through London.  I'm so glad she made it on.  Our employer paid for a business class ticket for her repatriation (they wouldn't normally do that at her level, but economy was sold out).  I suspect if she'd waited a few more days, it might not have been possible to get back at all, until this thing subsides.  She plans to self-quarantine when she's back.

I'm expecting to start working from home this week - probably tomorrow.  This city is gradually shutting down everything but essential services.  It's so surreal to watch.

Linea_Norway

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #610 on: March 16, 2020, 02:02:32 AM »
Bet there will be a baby boom in about 9 months!

The first baby carrying the virus at birth has already been born.

Linea_Norway

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #611 on: March 16, 2020, 02:15:06 AM »
Have you noticed the English tacticsnof letting people become immune? I understood that they wanted to keep the elderly people indoors and let the rest still mingle. I think it will end up with perhaps several million people needing a respirator at the same time and they won't have so many.

It would be interesting to follow these different scenarios, the Chinese/Taiwanese tactic and the English tactic. Who comes out best in the end?

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #612 on: March 16, 2020, 03:58:06 AM »
Have you noticed the English tacticsnof letting people become immune? I understood that they wanted to keep the elderly people indoors and let the rest still mingle. I think it will end up with perhaps several million people needing a respirator at the same time and they won't have so many.

It would be interesting to follow these different scenarios, the Chinese/Taiwanese tactic and the English tactic. Who comes out best in the end?

That's about the only good thing about everyone going their own way. We'll come out of this knowing what works..... Can't say I understand the British idea. How do we even know that you get immune to this thing at all? Maybe you can get it multiple times but the fourth time you always grow a third eye and then die. They have no idea.

keepingfocus

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #613 on: March 16, 2020, 05:00:11 AM »
Token Brit here. I don't know a single person IRL who doesn't think our government has lost the plot...not that it even had much a plot in the first place, other than destroying the economy, wrecking the health service and killing off a bunch of us plebs!

Hirondelle

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #614 on: March 16, 2020, 05:25:49 AM »
Have you noticed the English tacticsnof letting people become immune? I understood that they wanted to keep the elderly people indoors and let the rest still mingle. I think it will end up with perhaps several million people needing a respirator at the same time and they won't have so many.

It would be interesting to follow these different scenarios, the Chinese/Taiwanese tactic and the English tactic. Who comes out best in the end?

That's about the only good thing about everyone going their own way. We'll come out of this knowing what works..... Can't say I understand the British idea. How do we even know that you get immune to this thing at all? Maybe you can get it multiple times but the fourth time you always grow a third eye and then die. They have no idea.

I was talking about this in a more general sense with some friends of mine yesterday. We were all sciency types (in my case BioMed) and it seems just fascinating to me to go through the data of what measures countries took and how effective they were. Although countries are now reducing the people they test I think healthcare overload levels and death rates will still give a pretty solid database even without less accurate actual case numbers (due to testing only severe cases). Lots of future PhD students will be graduating over this I'm sure!

Reader

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #615 on: March 16, 2020, 05:52:59 AM »
Token Brit here. I don't know a single person IRL who doesn't think our government has lost the plot...not that it even had much a plot in the first place, other than destroying the economy, wrecking the health service and killing off a bunch of us plebs!
the amazing thing was, they were voted in via a second election after it was clear what they would do to the economy and health service.

LightTripper

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #616 on: March 16, 2020, 05:55:25 AM »
Another Brit here.  I'm willing to give our government  the benefit of the doubt (well, not the government, who I trust as far as I could throw them: but having read their CVs and seen them speak I have time for and faith in the Chief Scientific Advisor and Chief Medical Officer that they have done their research and this is their judgement of the best course for us). 

However, I think we all have to be realistic: nobody has any idea what strategy is best here.  Everybody is just making assumptions, which are feeding into models, and then working on the basis of what the models tell them: but a lot of those assumptions inevitably are going to turn out to be wrong, and we can't know which ones.  It could be that our "strategy" is a disaster, it could be that those who clamped down now suffer a more damaging second wave as soon as they loosen restrictions, it could be that we in the UK have a disasterous short term AND then a terrible second wave, we just don't know.  I don't think there is any strategy in any country that will avoid this being a very very painful experience.

Most people I know are taking it seriously though the pubs are full when I walk home from work so not everybody is.

My parents are in their 70s/80s and my Mum is quite depressed about it.  Our government has said people in risk groups may need to self-isolate for 4 months.  My Dad is talking about postponing the next stage of his PhD as he won't be able to go to the document archives to research.  At least it is coming to the warmer time of the year here, and they have plans to go for walks, give themselves concerts at home, garden, cook, etc. but it is a big change and a big challenge to mental health and wellbeing.

My resolution is to do some "digital closening" with elderly relatives that I don't usually manage to speak to much (because I hate the telephone!) to try to make up for some of the physical distancing that they are likely having to do.  Going to call my Uncle today (asthmatic, hospitalised for pneumonia last winter, so understandably concerned), Godmother later in the week (partner died just before Christmas so feeling down anyway and this can't be helping).  Dropping a note into my elderly neighbour to make sure she has my number and offer help if she needs it after work this evening. 

I suspect we could all do a bit of that kind of thing, and it might be a good way to manage the anxiety and feel a bit less helpless ourselves too.

Also: it had never occurred to me I ought to be taking off my shoes every time I come in, but that is firmly on my agenda now, thanks!

wellactually

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #617 on: March 16, 2020, 07:30:54 AM »
I freaking hate it anytime someone jokes about a baby boom coming. Full disclosure, I started trying to get pregnant over 3 years ago and now I'm finally due in 4 weeks. But it's not 1960, people have access to easy birth control beyond condoms. There is a lot more family planning happening now. People aren't just going to say "screw it, we're working from home today, let's try and get pregnant." It's absurd. And jokes about getting pregnant easily are really hurtful to the 1 in 8 couples trying who struggle to conceive and the 1 in 4 women who experience pregnancy loss.

I'll contribute this to the on topic discussion:

At my work, we had scheduled an in-person interview for three artists to fly into our small-medium town. They're trying to win a public art contract worth six figures. One of the finalists is from Snohomish County, Washington. I've been trying to get her to switch this to a skype interview since the outbreak first hit Snohomish. It is really not a big deal to switch to video interview and the guy is 70+ and would have to fly through Sea-Tac. She's so in denial about what's happening, we only finally convinced her on Friday. I still don't think she's called the guy to let him know, meanwhile 176 confirmed cases in his county.

StashingAway

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #618 on: March 16, 2020, 08:10:01 AM »
I freaking hate it anytime someone jokes about a baby boom coming. Full disclosure, I started trying to get pregnant over 3 years ago and now I'm finally due in 4 weeks. But it's not 1960, people have access to easy birth control beyond condoms. There is a lot more family planning happening now. People aren't just going to say "screw it, we're working from home today, let's try and get pregnant." It's absurd. And jokes about getting pregnant easily are really hurtful to the 1 in 8 couples trying who struggle to conceive and the 1 in 4 women who experience pregnancy loss.

Sounds like you are taking your frustration and distress out. I hope you are working on healing.  It's easier to go through life when you are able to laugh at something like this than take it personally.

wellactually

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #619 on: March 16, 2020, 08:54:15 AM »
@Stashing Away  wow, that's kind of condescending. I actually have found that one of the healthiest parts of infertility has been spreading awareness. A lot of people don't realize how insensitive it is to joke about pregnancy or ask people when they are having kids. I feel a lot of peace about my journey, but people's insensitive comments everywhere made it a lot harder to process through the battles I faced. Not everything needs to be joked about and many think they are doing something harmless because they just haven't ever experienced it themselves and don't understand how widespread it is. Going through infertility has the same levels of stress as shown in people battling cancer or AIDS. If we spread awareness and help people understand that family planning is not an area where you need to try and be funny, it can help everyone struggling.

Serendip

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #620 on: March 16, 2020, 08:54:49 AM »
I freaking hate it anytime someone jokes about a baby boom coming. Full disclosure, I started trying to get pregnant over 3 years ago and now I'm finally due in 4 weeks. But it's not 1960, people have access to easy birth control beyond condoms. There is a lot more family planning happening now. People aren't just going to say "screw it, we're working from home today, let's try and get pregnant." It's absurd. And jokes about getting pregnant easily are really hurtful to the 1 in 8 couples trying who struggle to conceive and the 1 in 4 women who experience pregnancy loss.

Sounds like you are taking your frustration and distress out. I hope you are working on healing.  It's easier to go through life when you are able to laugh at something like this than take it personally.

She is also just encouraging us to remember that our words count (and perhaps develop increased sensitivity if we are willing to).


As for preparedness, we are pretty much set..with some availability to donate to the local food bank if they need extra. Our local store is still fully stocked so everyone is able to pad their cupboards more if they desire. There is a move to allow immune-compromised folks/elderly to have exclusive access to stores for the first hour or two they are open..our community seems very supportive of this idea and I think it would alleviate some concerns of shopping during busy times.

However, I went to the store at 8:30am yesterday and there were only four of us in there.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2020, 08:56:31 AM by Serendip »

StashingAway

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #621 on: March 16, 2020, 09:22:46 AM »
@Stashing Away  wow, that's kind of condescending. I actually have found that one of the healthiest parts of infertility has been spreading awareness. A lot of people don't realize how insensitive it is to joke about pregnancy or ask people when they are having kids. I feel a lot of peace about my journey, but people's insensitive comments everywhere made it a lot harder to process through the battles I faced. Not everything needs to be joked about and many think they are doing something harmless because they just haven't ever experienced it themselves and don't understand how widespread it is. Going through infertility has the same levels of stress as shown in people battling cancer or AIDS. If we spread awareness and help people understand that family planning is not an area where you need to try and be funny, it can help everyone struggling.

My wife and I are very aware and affected by infertility issues.

Making reference to couples boinking each other because there's a quarantine is hardly insensitive, and very much not personally directed at you and never was. It's brightening the stressful conversation. There's a joke out there to offend anyone looking to be offended. And there's only one side of that equation that you can control! Everything can be joked about or nothing can. There are social context clues and cues for restraint (time and a place), and if we were on a pregnancy support forum I would certainly change my tune. But we're on a financial forum talking about a viral pandemic.

As I said, I hope you are on your way to healing, and perhaps may look into a therapist if you have not yet. I can personally attest that they help.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #622 on: March 16, 2020, 12:19:20 PM »
I freaking hate it anytime someone jokes about a baby boom coming. Full disclosure, I started trying to get pregnant over 3 years ago and now I'm finally due in 4 weeks. But it's not 1960, people have access to easy birth control beyond condoms. There is a lot more family planning happening now. People aren't just going to say "screw it, we're working from home today, let's try and get pregnant." It's absurd. And jokes about getting pregnant easily are really hurtful to the 1 in 8 couples trying who struggle to conceive and the 1 in 4 women who experience pregnancy loss.



OMG, no one was out to offend you. No one was making light of your personal situation. It's fact that times of high anxiety produce baby booms, and it's FUNNY.

SunnyDays

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #623 on: March 16, 2020, 12:42:14 PM »
I freaking hate it anytime someone jokes about a baby boom coming. Full disclosure, I started trying to get pregnant over 3 years ago and now I'm finally due in 4 weeks. But it's not 1960, people have access to easy birth control beyond condoms. There is a lot more family planning happening now. People aren't just going to say "screw it, we're working from home today, let's try and get pregnant." It's absurd. And jokes about getting pregnant easily are really hurtful to the 1 in 8 couples trying who struggle to conceive and the 1 in 4 women who experience pregnancy loss.

I'll contribute this to the on topic discussion:

At my work, we had scheduled an in-person interview for three artists to fly into our small-medium town. They're trying to win a public art contract worth six figures. One of the finalists is from Snohomish County, Washington. I've been trying to get her to switch this to a skype interview since the outbreak first hit Snohomish. It is really not a big deal to switch to video interview and the guy is 70+ and would have to fly through Sea-Tac. She's so in denial about what's happening, we only finally convinced her on Friday. I still don't think she's called the guy to let him know, meanwhile 176 confirmed cases in his county.

Wow.  Okay.  Sorry I touched a nerve, but I donít believe I said anything offensive.

brandon1827

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #624 on: March 16, 2020, 01:09:24 PM »
So, if you follow social media at all you may have seen some jackass post a shot of a bar in downtown Nashville with the caption "Nashville is undefeated". This is the heart of Trump country and most idiots here tend to believe that this is just some insane plot to tear down dear leader. A day after that tweet, the Mayor of Nashville closed all restaurants and bars in the entire city...so if they're not going to heed the warning and look out for the public good, apparently they'll be forced to party somewhere other than downtown Nashville.

ixtap

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #625 on: March 16, 2020, 01:37:50 PM »
Birth rates go up by as much as 20% after snow storms, which generally don't isolate people for more than a week, if even that. So yes, it is very likely we will see a baby boom in nine months.

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #626 on: March 16, 2020, 01:39:36 PM »
Birth rates go up by as much as 20% after snow storms, which generally don't isolate people for more than a week, if even that. So yes, it is very likely we will see a baby boom in nine months.

Maybe.

But only among couples without kids.  Anyone locked in a house with a hyperactive four year old will be reconsidering the possibility of ever having sex again.  :P

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #627 on: March 16, 2020, 01:46:11 PM »
Birth rates go up by as much as 20% after snow storms, which generally don't isolate people for more than a week, if even that. So yes, it is very likely we will see a baby boom in nine months.

Maybe.

But only among couples without kids.  Anyone locked in a house with a hyperactive four year old will be reconsidering the possibility of ever having sex again.  :P

snigger

RetiredAt63

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #628 on: March 16, 2020, 02:14:54 PM »
Birth rates go up by as much as 20% after snow storms, which generally don't isolate people for more than a week, if even that. So yes, it is very likely we will see a baby boom in nine months.

Maybe.

But only among couples without kids.  Anyone locked in a house with a hyperactive four year old will be reconsidering the possibility of ever having sex again.  :P

That's assuming they might ever find the time and energy.  And 3 reliable methods of birth control.   ;-)

nereo

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #629 on: March 16, 2020, 02:19:31 PM »
Birth rates go up by as much as 20% after snow storms, which generally don't isolate people for more than a week, if even that. So yes, it is very likely we will see a baby boom in nine months.

Snowstorms may cause a spike in pregnancies, but recessions have the opposite effect.  It will be interesting which has the greater impact.

My guess is more people will be too scared of adding another family member than normal.

Guess we'll find out around Christmas...

mm1970

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #630 on: March 16, 2020, 04:11:54 PM »
Birth rates go up by as much as 20% after snow storms, which generally don't isolate people for more than a week, if even that. So yes, it is very likely we will see a baby boom in nine months.

Snowstorms may cause a spike in pregnancies, but recessions have the opposite effect.  It will be interesting which has the greater impact.

My guess is more people will be too scared of adding another family member than normal.

Guess we'll find out around Christmas...

Boy I am glad that I am old (49). on the pill, with a fixed husband. we are too tired entertaining the kids...

Villanelle

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #631 on: March 16, 2020, 07:08:14 PM »
Forget toilet paper; I'm going to start hoarding condoms. 


jeromedawg

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #633 on: March 16, 2020, 10:02:52 PM »

When you're bringing in those groceries and other items and going through the decontamination process, don't forget the most contaminated surface of them all.  The bottom of your shoes!  Anytime someone sneezes or coughs, most of those droplets full of the virus will fall to the floor, where it can live for hours.  Then it will contaminate the bottom of people's shoes who will then spread it around to other floors.  So anytime you are out in public, you should assume your shoes are picking up coronavirus.  When you get home, you will want to remove your shoes carefully without touching the bottom, and you will need to be sure that you step away so that your sock/foot never comes in contact with any floor that your shoe has made contact with.  If you leave your shoes on, you will be tracking the virus all through your house!

Agreed. If you think about it, it's quite disgusting. Everyone thinks it's mostly Asians who do this and perhaps that's true but I know a number of non-Asian people who don't do this. Anyway, it shouldn't be a cultural thing. What's more appalling is that I think people who have hardwood floors (no carpet) seem to feel like wearing shoes is justified/warranted - that's probably the fastest way to track stuff around!! In fact, my parents have gotten quite lax about this. I need to tell them to stop allowing people to wear shows inside the house with all the stuff they're tracking in.
This all kind of reminds me of something Jerry Seinfeld poked fun at in one of his Comedians in Cars Getting Coffee segments (forgot who he was with) but he basically said something along the lines of "I don't get the people who insist on taking off their shoes in the house when they have dogs that rub their asses all over the carpet" - he does have a good point. But to me that just means "no shoes and no pets" LOL!!!
« Last Edit: March 16, 2020, 10:09:45 PM by jeromedawg »

Luz

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #634 on: March 16, 2020, 11:36:19 PM »
Why is there so little mention of the economy on this thread?

I just read that several Bay Area counties are under orders to "shelter at home" for 3 weeks (if not longer).
I was surprised to learn that, among other things, "shelter at home" means not going to work (for those without the option to work from home and in industries deemed non-essential). Workers facing inevitable job losses were encouraged to apply for unemployment or disability.

I understand that it is all in effort to "flatten the curve," but what good is it for people not to go to their jobs if they can still go to the grocery store and bank? How much is it reducing viral spread, and at what price? Containment to the extent that it affects people's livelihoods seems like a terrible idea, but I must be missing something. "Flatten the curve" is about saving lives and keeping the health sector from being completely overwhelmed, right? But is there a point where the risks involved in containment outweigh the benefits?
« Last Edit: March 16, 2020, 11:46:27 PM by Luz »

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #635 on: March 17, 2020, 12:59:51 AM »
Why is there so little mention of the economy on this thread?

I just read that several Bay Area counties are under orders to "shelter at home" for 3 weeks (if not longer).
I was surprised to learn that, among other things, "shelter at home" means not going to work (for those without the option to work from home and in industries deemed non-essential). Workers facing inevitable job losses were encouraged to apply for unemployment or disability.

I understand that it is all in effort to "flatten the curve," but what good is it for people not to go to their jobs if they can still go to the grocery store and bank? How much is it reducing viral spread, and at what price? Containment to the extent that it affects people's livelihoods seems like a terrible idea, but I must be missing something. "Flatten the curve" is about saving lives and keeping the health sector from being completely overwhelmed, right? But is there a point where the risks involved in containment outweigh the benefits?

If you think that the only people getting seriously ill and dying are over 80 with heart disease ie not you, you are sadly mistaken. This is a viral pandemic and one that we don't fully understand. You're bitching and moaning about livelihoods when the measures are to save lives. Including yours.

runbikerun

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #636 on: March 17, 2020, 01:51:41 AM »
"Flatten the curve" is about saving lives and keeping the health sector from being completely overwhelmed, right? But is there a point where the risks involved in containment outweigh the benefits?

Perhaps, but it's way, way further down the line than where we are now.

When the health system is overwhelmed, the mortality rate goes to almost 10%. When controls are not put in place, the virus doubles its spread every couple of days. When these factors are combined, we end up with a situation that could kill as many as one in twelve people, leave quite a few others with lifelong medical complications, and (this is the icing on a particularly shitty cake) leaves us with a mountain of dead doctors and nurses and no way of quickly replacing them.

So if you think losing about 8% of the population in a few months, and facing the future with a medical profession that's lost huge numbers of practitioners, is an acceptable price...

Luz

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #637 on: March 17, 2020, 01:53:53 AM »
No bitching or moaning was involved.
I was just asking if containment is effective when people are kept from working but they can still go to the grocery store.
Livelihoods are pretty important for survival. You need money to pay the rent, buy food, and pay for your medical care. What happens when millions of families lose their employer-sponsored health insurance due to job loss? That would put quite the burden on our health system. And how do we know that we're preventing that many deaths via our current efforts of containment? Like you said, we don't fully understand the situation. There's no harm in questioning whether the response to the pandemic has far-reaching effects and if it's even effective. Maybe there's a better way (one that doesn't cripple our economy meanwhile)?

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #638 on: March 17, 2020, 02:02:16 AM »
No bitching or moaning was involved.
I was just asking if containment is effective when people are kept from working but they can still go to the grocery store.
Livelihoods are pretty important for survival. You need money to pay the rent, buy food, and pay for your medical care. What happens when millions of families lose their employer-sponsored health insurance due to job loss? That would put quite the burden on our health system. And how do we know that we're preventing that many deaths via our current efforts of containment? Like you said, we don't fully understand the situation. There's no harm in questioning whether the response to the pandemic has far-reaching effects and if it's even effective. Maybe there's a better way (one that doesn't cripple our economy meanwhile)?

This is suggested by people who have studied populations and viruses and survival rates and death rates all their lives. Maybe they know better than you what we're all facing. To me you don't seem to have a clue what's actually happening here. You seem to think that everyone is largely being inconvenienced to save a few lives. You don't seem to understand that there is no after this. There's no recovery here. There's no isolating for a few weeks and then everything goes back to normal. This is the start of a brand new way of managing society, and it's not going to be giant, unsustainable economic bubbles. How you think about livelihood now and how you think of it in two months time could well be world's apart.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #639 on: March 17, 2020, 02:06:49 AM »
"Flatten the curve" is about saving lives and keeping the health sector from being completely overwhelmed, right? But is there a point where the risks involved in containment outweigh the benefits?

Perhaps, but it's way, way further down the line than where we are now.

When the health system is overwhelmed, the mortality rate goes to almost 10%. When controls are not put in place, the virus doubles its spread every couple of days. When these factors are combined, we end up with a situation that could kill as many as one in twelve people, leave quite a few others with lifelong medical complications, and (this is the icing on a particularly shitty cake) leaves us with a mountain of dead doctors and nurses and no way of quickly replacing them.

So if you think losing about 8% of the population in a few months, and facing the future with a medical profession that's lost huge numbers of practitioners, is an acceptable price...

Like a lot of people, this poster believes that age is the determining factor in the deaths. People are clinging to some very dodgy stats in that regard. They have absolutely no idea that they and their friends and their families and the guy in the corner store that gives him a free shot in his coffee are all at risk of a pretty nasty death RIGHT NOW. If you're heading off to the grocery store because you fancy a pepsi in the middle of a pandemic, you're dumb as dirt.

Luz

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #640 on: March 17, 2020, 02:08:27 AM »
"Flatten the curve" is about saving lives and keeping the health sector from being completely overwhelmed, right? But is there a point where the risks involved in containment outweigh the benefits?

Perhaps, but it's way, way further down the line than where we are now.

When the health system is overwhelmed, the mortality rate goes to almost 10%. When controls are not put in place, the virus doubles its spread every couple of days. When these factors are combined, we end up with a situation that could kill as many as one in twelve people, leave quite a few others with lifelong medical complications, and (this is the icing on a particularly shitty cake) leaves us with a mountain of dead doctors and nurses and no way of quickly replacing them.

So if you think losing about 8% of the population in a few months, and facing the future with a medical profession that's lost huge numbers of practitioners, is an acceptable price...

These are honest questions, and not challenges:
-the mortality rate climbs to almost 10% when the health system is overwhelmed in general or just with Coronavirus cases?
-what sort of controls keep the virus from doubling (is the Bay Area's ban on non-essential employment but not essential employment/life activities effective?)
-where did you the information you presented?

Luz

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #641 on: March 17, 2020, 02:20:46 AM »
"Flatten the curve" is about saving lives and keeping the health sector from being completely overwhelmed, right? But is there a point where the risks involved in containment outweigh the benefits?

Perhaps, but it's way, way further down the line than where we are now.

When the health system is overwhelmed, the mortality rate goes to almost 10%. When controls are not put in place, the virus doubles its spread every couple of days. When these factors are combined, we end up with a situation that could kill as many as one in twelve people, leave quite a few others with lifelong medical complications, and (this is the icing on a particularly shitty cake) leaves us with a mountain of dead doctors and nurses and no way of quickly replacing them.

So if you think losing about 8% of the population in a few months, and facing the future with a medical profession that's lost huge numbers of practitioners, is an acceptable price...

Like a lot of people, this poster believes that age is the determining factor in the deaths. People are clinging to some very dodgy stats in that regard. They have absolutely no idea that they and their friends and their families and the guy in the corner store that gives him a free shot in his coffee are all at risk of a pretty nasty death RIGHT NOW. If you're heading off to the grocery store because you fancy a pepsi in the middle of a pandemic, you're dumb as dirt.

Hold on a second.  Where is your information that I, my friends, family, and elderly relatives are at risk of a pretty nasty death right now? Or that our current efforts of containment are effective? Or that economic depression (and all the ills that go with it) is not a serious concern? Or that I even like Pepsi?

runbikerun

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #642 on: March 17, 2020, 02:26:01 AM »
This really looks less like serious questioning and more like trolling.

But on the off chance that it's sincere:

1. Lombardy has had 13,272 coronavirus cases and 1,218 coronavirus deaths. This does not include deaths from other causes which were exacerbated by a lack of medical facilities.

2. The evidence from China is that social distancing and a heavy lockdown arrests the spread of the virus.

3. Seriously, this is on the front page of every newspaper website in the Western world. Asking for sources on this is like asking for a source on who won the Super Bowl.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #643 on: March 17, 2020, 02:28:10 AM »
"Flatten the curve" is about saving lives and keeping the health sector from being completely overwhelmed, right? But is there a point where the risks involved in containment outweigh the benefits?

Perhaps, but it's way, way further down the line than where we are now.

When the health system is overwhelmed, the mortality rate goes to almost 10%. When controls are not put in place, the virus doubles its spread every couple of days. When these factors are combined, we end up with a situation that could kill as many as one in twelve people, leave quite a few others with lifelong medical complications, and (this is the icing on a particularly shitty cake) leaves us with a mountain of dead doctors and nurses and no way of quickly replacing them.

So if you think losing about 8% of the population in a few months, and facing the future with a medical profession that's lost huge numbers of practitioners, is an acceptable price...

Like a lot of people, this poster believes that age is the determining factor in the deaths. People are clinging to some very dodgy stats in that regard. They have absolutely no idea that they and their friends and their families and the guy in the corner store that gives him a free shot in his coffee are all at risk of a pretty nasty death RIGHT NOW. If you're heading off to the grocery store because you fancy a pepsi in the middle of a pandemic, you're dumb as dirt.

Hold on a second.  Where is your information that I, my friends, family, and elderly relatives are at risk of a pretty nasty death right now? Or that our current efforts of containment are effective? Or that economic depression (and all the ills that go with it) is not a serious concern? Or that I even like Pepsi?

Do you read anything other than this forum? Coronavirus is pretty much all over the net right now, have you read any of it at all? Have you even tried to educate yourself on what is going on?

FYI, the UK decided to largely go with your approach. Then they ran some numbers, looked at some data and realised just how bad an idea that was. A bunch of scientists told them it was a stupid idea. Turns out they were right.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/16/new-data-new-policy-why-uks-coronavirus-strategy-has-changed

For the rest, I suggest you use a little know search engine called Google.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #644 on: March 17, 2020, 02:29:14 AM »
This really looks less like serious questioning and more like trolling.

But on the off chance that it's sincere:

1. Lombardy has had 13,272 coronavirus cases and 1,218 coronavirus deaths. This does not include deaths from other causes which were exacerbated by a lack of medical facilities.

2. The evidence from China is that social distancing and a heavy lockdown arrests the spread of the virus.

3. Seriously, this is on the front page of every newspaper website in the Western world. Asking for sources on this is like asking for a source on who won the Super Bowl.

Yeah. I need to stop feeding it because it's really starting to wind me up.

Luz

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #645 on: March 17, 2020, 02:33:43 AM »
No bitching or moaning was involved.
I was just asking if containment is effective when people are kept from working but they can still go to the grocery store.
Livelihoods are pretty important for survival. You need money to pay the rent, buy food, and pay for your medical care. What happens when millions of families lose their employer-sponsored health insurance due to job loss? That would put quite the burden on our health system. And how do we know that we're preventing that many deaths via our current efforts of containment? Like you said, we don't fully understand the situation. There's no harm in questioning whether the response to the pandemic has far-reaching effects and if it's even effective. Maybe there's a better way (one that doesn't cripple our economy meanwhile)?

This is suggested by people who have studied populations and viruses and survival rates and death rates all their lives. Maybe they know better than you what we're all facing. To me you don't seem to have a clue what's actually happening here. You seem to think that everyone is largely being inconvenienced to save a few lives. You don't seem to understand that there is no after this. There's no recovery here. There's no isolating for a few weeks and then everything goes back to normal. This is the start of a brand new way of managing society, and it's not going to be giant, unsustainable economic bubbles. How you think about livelihood now and how you think of it in two months time could well be world's apart.

By which people?  What exactly are they saying?  Do they talk about the conditions of quarantine and what makes it effective? What are economists saying? Are there talks among economists and public health specialists about the effects of both the pandemic and it's economic fallout and how the latter would affect the former? Truly just wanting to know.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #646 on: March 17, 2020, 02:36:49 AM »
No bitching or moaning was involved.
I was just asking if containment is effective when people are kept from working but they can still go to the grocery store.
Livelihoods are pretty important for survival. You need money to pay the rent, buy food, and pay for your medical care. What happens when millions of families lose their employer-sponsored health insurance due to job loss? That would put quite the burden on our health system. And how do we know that we're preventing that many deaths via our current efforts of containment? Like you said, we don't fully understand the situation. There's no harm in questioning whether the response to the pandemic has far-reaching effects and if it's even effective. Maybe there's a better way (one that doesn't cripple our economy meanwhile)?

This is suggested by people who have studied populations and viruses and survival rates and death rates all their lives. Maybe they know better than you what we're all facing. To me you don't seem to have a clue what's actually happening here. You seem to think that everyone is largely being inconvenienced to save a few lives. You don't seem to understand that there is no after this. There's no recovery here. There's no isolating for a few weeks and then everything goes back to normal. This is the start of a brand new way of managing society, and it's not going to be giant, unsustainable economic bubbles. How you think about livelihood now and how you think of it in two months time could well be world's apart.

By which people?  What exactly are they saying?  Do they talk about the conditions of quarantine and what makes it effective? What are economists saying? Are there talks among economists and public health specialists about the effects of both the pandemic and it's economic fallout and how the latter would affect the former? Truly just wanting to know.

Piss off, troll.

MoseyingAlong

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #647 on: March 17, 2020, 03:13:01 AM »
....
I understand that it is all in effort to "flatten the curve," but what good is it for people not to go to their jobs if they can still go to the grocery store and bank? How much is it reducing viral spread, and at what price? Containment to the extent that it affects people's livelihoods seems like a terrible idea, but I must be missing something. "Flatten the curve" is about saving lives and keeping the health sector from being completely overwhelmed, right? But is there a point where the risks involved in containment outweigh the benefits?

Luz, there are a lot of questions and pros/cons to consider. I do think a complete lock-down for an unknown period of time will have long-reaching effects. Not just for the economy but also psychologically. I can only imagine what this is doing to a lot of people's mental health and ability to deal with the world.

People are going to die of something and we can't wrap everyone in cotton wool. As has already been brought up, the flu and cars are involved in a lot of deaths every year and we don't go to these extreme measures to prevent those deaths. I expect that in a couple years, this coronavirus will just be another thing we deal with.

Luz

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #648 on: March 17, 2020, 03:35:35 AM »
This really looks less like serious questioning and more like trolling.

But on the off chance that it's sincere:

1. Lombardy has had 13,272 coronavirus cases and 1,218 coronavirus deaths. This does not include deaths from other causes which were exacerbated by a lack of medical facilities.

2. The evidence from China is that social distancing and a heavy lockdown arrests the spread of the virus.

3. Seriously, this is on the front page of every newspaper website in the Western world. Asking for sources on this is like asking for a source on who won the Super Bowl.

It's completely sincere. I'm trying to make sense of it in both economic and health terms. And to do that, there seems to be plenty of nuances to sort through. I did a little research just now, and it appears that the success in China in curbing the outbreak was not in lock down measures, but in testing and quarantine.  In an NPR interview, Bruce Aylward, assistant director general of WHO expounds on this:

"In short, it wasn't a lockdown everywhere. That's the wrong way to portray China's approach to the disease. And that's leading to some fundamental confusion and failure to do the right things."

Is Italy's decision to impose severe lockdown-like restrictions in vast swaths of its northern region the right approach?

Aylward says he's reluctant to comment specifically on Italy's decision because he's not familiar with the epidemiological data there. "One of the challenges with Italy right now is just the amount of data," he says. "They're just running so fast to catch up with the cases, it's difficult to understand what's driving the transmission. Because that's what you want to use to drive your strategy — what you cancel, what you suspend, etc. It should be driven by the way the virus is moving."

Still, Aylward says, there is indeed a threshold where it becomes necessary to impose major restrictions on movement. That happens when there is substantial "community-level transmission, where it's spreading in [so] many, many different environments, you can't even differentiate clusters." That's what occurred in Wuhan.

But even in those instances, says Aylward, it's crucial not to rely on restrictions of movement as the sole remedy. Public health authorities need to be prepared for a rebound in cases when movement restrictions are lifted and cases start to tick up again."

(https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/03/08/813401722/who-official-says-coronavirus-containment-remains-possible)

I'm not arguing a point. Simply had a question for the forum (is lockdown effective, especially considering the far-reaching implications?). And I'm glad I kept asking, because it appears that it may not be as effective as we would like to think and there's a huge price to pay when millions of families lose their income because of it. Worth it, IMO, if it's an effective measure. Terrible idea if it's not what will stem the tide.  I like what Aylward said: you have to drive your strategy by in-depth understanding. And for in-depth understanding, you have to ask questions that might bring ire or that people think are foolish, I'd add.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2020, 03:47:36 AM by Luz »

American GenX

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #649 on: March 17, 2020, 03:48:24 AM »
Why is there so little mention of the economy on this thread?

I just read that several Bay Area counties are under orders to "shelter at home" for 3 weeks (if not longer).
I was surprised to learn that, among other things, "shelter at home" means not going to work (for those without the option to work from home and in industries deemed non-essential). Workers facing inevitable job losses were encouraged to apply for unemployment or disability.

I understand that it is all in effort to "flatten the curve," but what good is it for people not to go to their jobs if they can still go to the grocery store and bank? How much is it reducing viral spread, and at what price? Containment to the extent that it affects people's livelihoods seems like a terrible idea, but I must be missing something. "Flatten the curve" is about saving lives and keeping the health sector from being completely overwhelmed, right? But is there a point where the risks involved in containment outweigh the benefits?

If you think that the only people getting seriously ill and dying are over 80 with heart disease ie not you, you are sadly mistaken. This is a viral pandemic and one that we don't fully understand. You're bitching and moaning about livelihoods when the measures are to save lives. Including yours.

+1000

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!