Author Topic: Coronavirus preparedness  (Read 120984 times)

CrustyBadger

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #150 on: February 25, 2020, 04:19:04 PM »
I think this was what frugaldrummer was talking about earlier -- canceling elective surgery is one of the things that might need to happen.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/25/cdc-outlines-what-closing-schools-businesses-would-look-like-in-us-pandemic.html

Quote
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention stepped up its call Tuesday for the public to start preparing for a possible pandemic outbreak in the U.S. of the coronavirus that’s infected more than 80,000 people and killed at least 2,700 overseas in less than two months.

“We are asking the American public to work with us to prepare for the expectation that this could be bad,” a top CDC officials told reporters in a conference call outlining what schools and businesses will likely need to do if the COVID-19 virus starts to spread throughout the U.S.
Schools should consider dividing students into smaller groups or close and use “internet-based teleschooling,” Dr. Nancy Messonnier, director of the CDC’s National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases, told reporters on a conference call.

“For adults, businesses can replace in-person meetings with video or telephone conferences and increase teleworking options,” Messonnier said.

She said local communities and cities may need to “modify, postpone or cancel mass gatherings.” Hospitals may need to triage patients differently, add more telehealth services and delay elective surgery, she said.

“Now is the time for businesses, hospitals, communities, schools and everyday people to begin preparing,” she said.

Kris

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #151 on: February 25, 2020, 04:43:23 PM »
So, I’m not particularly concerned about coronavirus yet, though I could be wrong. But.... those of you who lean away from providing health insurance for all, think about the implications of large numbers of our population not being financially able to seek health care when they have a communicable disease.

Be selfish if you must. But recognize your selfishness might come back to bite you.

This is ridiculous. They walk into an emergency room at a public hospital and will receive care regardless fo whether or not they have health insurance. People need to stop spreading this lie.

Sure. People who suspect they *might* be sick, but who don't have insurance, are gonna immediately go to the emergency room, wait 6 hours to be tested to make sure they are quarantined if necessary before they get *too* sick -- because they're gonna be completely confident they'll never have to pay a resulting exorbitant emergency bill that will dog them for years.

THOSE PEOPLE ALREADY DO THIS!!! Holy guacamole

Yeah. All of them.

Before they’re super duper sick.

They all go to the emergency room just as a precaution.

And of course, the emergency rooms will have the capacity to handle them all during this, too.

American GenX

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #152 on: February 25, 2020, 04:48:03 PM »
We have a disease that is 40x more deadly than the flu, has an incubation period of two to three weeks, and can spread when people are asymptotic.  That it only has a 2 or 3% mortality rate makes it way more dangerous than if it were higher...that means more mild cases that go around spreading it.

Indeed it's a pretty nasty recipe!  And that mortality rate goes way up with age.  I've also read that people don't build long term resistance to this like they do the regular flu, so if it doesn't get you the first time around, it might take you down the second go-around.

Papa bear

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #153 on: February 25, 2020, 06:20:06 PM »
So, asking around about supply chain issues - I know that some major medical distributors may be having some inventory issues with medical products.  Some items have been shipped back to China, some things are on back order, and manufacturing may have problems if some raw materials can’t get out of China to plants in the Western Hemisphere.

No panic at the companies yet, but they already have had to mitigate some issues. 

Not really doing anything different for this, just making sure I’m regular on grocery shopping and not letting things get low. 


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frugaldrummer

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #154 on: February 25, 2020, 11:28:50 PM »
Stopped by Costco to buy more toilet paper (for my office this time). On Saturday there was a large supply. Tonight there was about 1/4 the amount there was Saturday.

Maybe it was just timing, maybe toilet paper shipments come in on Fridays. Or maybe others are stocking up, don’t know.

Bought jars of peaches, boxes of cereal and almond milk. Will buy gluten free pasta and canned pineapple elsewhere.

Imma

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #155 on: February 25, 2020, 11:48:24 PM »
I haven't heard anyone irl talk about stocking up and tp isn't made in China, so my guess it's a coincidence, unless people are really panicking in your location? The closest infection is now about 100km from my home and it looks like the person was infected by an acquintance who recently visited China. Schools are closed in that area now.

frugaldrummer

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #156 on: February 26, 2020, 07:45:27 AM »
I suspect I am just ahead of the curve since being a science nerd, I have been following the science. I’m stocking up on toilet paper because the boyfriend with stage 4 lung cancer has chronic diarrhea from his treatment and if we were to be quarantined at home I wouldn’t want to run out. Basically I am preparing as if we might need to be quarantined for a month or more sometime in the next few months.

A recent analysis from the Imperial College of London estimated that two thirds of cases exported from China have gone undetected. In the US surveillance testing hasn’t started yet due to problems with the test kits. (The plan was to test samples that were tested for influenza and came back negative , in 5 major cities, which is a good way to see if Covid 19 is spreading undetected).

http://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/195564/two-thirds-covid-19-cases-exported-from-mainland/


OtherJen

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #157 on: February 26, 2020, 08:15:29 AM »
Our freezer and pantry, and pet food stash are well stocked thanks to our habit of bulk shopping, but after yesterday's CDC announcement I think I might stock up on toilet paper. Not because I think the actual situation on the ground has changed since yesterday, but I know that TP has been a scarce commodity in other buying panics.

Metalcat

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #158 on: February 26, 2020, 08:27:05 AM »
Our freezer and pantry, and pet food stash are well stocked thanks to our habit of bulk shopping, but after yesterday's CDC announcement I think I might stock up on toilet paper. Not because I think the actual situation on the ground has changed since yesterday, but I know that TP has been a scarce commodity in other buying panics.

We had a similar announcement from our government, but they specified advice to stock up enough for being sick for a week.

OtherJen

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #159 on: February 26, 2020, 08:32:40 AM »
Our freezer and pantry, and pet food stash are well stocked thanks to our habit of bulk shopping, but after yesterday's CDC announcement I think I might stock up on toilet paper. Not because I think the actual situation on the ground has changed since yesterday, but I know that TP has been a scarce commodity in other buying panics.

We had a similar announcement from our government, but they specified advice to stock up enough for being sick for a week.

Around here, people panic and clear out bread and milk from grocery stores in response to an announcement about a snowstorm that might close schools for a day. I can only imagine what they will do when the first coronavirus case is detected locally. Avoiding the inevitable panic by buying the next pack of toilet paper from Costco a month ahead of actual need and stashing it in the garage doesn't seem too irrational.

Metalcat

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #160 on: February 26, 2020, 08:45:23 AM »
Our freezer and pantry, and pet food stash are well stocked thanks to our habit of bulk shopping, but after yesterday's CDC announcement I think I might stock up on toilet paper. Not because I think the actual situation on the ground has changed since yesterday, but I know that TP has been a scarce commodity in other buying panics.

We had a similar announcement from our government, but they specified advice to stock up enough for being sick for a week.

Around here, people panic and clear out bread and milk from grocery stores in response to an announcement about a snowstorm that might close schools for a day. I can only imagine what they will do when the first coronavirus case is detected locally. Avoiding the inevitable panic by buying the next pack of toilet paper from Costco a month ahead of actual need and stashing it in the garage doesn't seem too irrational.

I didn't suggest it was irrational. I just find it absurd that a government advisory to stock up on a week's worth of supplies in case of getting sick will drive people to clear out toilet paper supplies.

To your point exactly, the biggest reason to stock up right now is because of the over reaction of others to stock up.
Not irrational, but definitely ridiculous.

OtherJen

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #161 on: February 26, 2020, 08:49:50 AM »
Our freezer and pantry, and pet food stash are well stocked thanks to our habit of bulk shopping, but after yesterday's CDC announcement I think I might stock up on toilet paper. Not because I think the actual situation on the ground has changed since yesterday, but I know that TP has been a scarce commodity in other buying panics.

We had a similar announcement from our government, but they specified advice to stock up enough for being sick for a week.

Around here, people panic and clear out bread and milk from grocery stores in response to an announcement about a snowstorm that might close schools for a day. I can only imagine what they will do when the first coronavirus case is detected locally. Avoiding the inevitable panic by buying the next pack of toilet paper from Costco a month ahead of actual need and stashing it in the garage doesn't seem too irrational.

I didn't suggest it was irrational. I just find it absurd that a government advisory to stock up on a week's worth of supplies in case of getting sick will drive people to clear out toilet paper supplies.

To your point exactly, the biggest reason to stock up right now is because of the over reaction of others to stock up.
Not irrational, but definitely ridiculous.

Ridiculous is a good word for it.

brandon1827

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #162 on: February 26, 2020, 08:58:58 AM »

Around here, people panic and clear out bread and milk from grocery stores in response to an announcement about a snowstorm that might close schools for a day. I can only imagine what they will do when the first coronavirus case is detected locally. Avoiding the inevitable panic by buying the next pack of toilet paper from Costco a month ahead of actual need and stashing it in the garage doesn't seem too irrational.

This....times 100. I live in the southern U.S. and the mere threat of snow flurries is enough to clear grocery stores of bread and milk in a matter of hours.

I generally fall on the side of being prepared to hunker down for a few days or a week out of precaution due to past experiences with prolonged power outages. For that reason, we tend to keep a little more of the necessities on-hand than the average, and would be fine to stay home for a week to 10 days if we needed to should this thing explode in the states. We're not staying up at night wringing our hands about it, but I'm following the reports and making sure we'd be well-fed, watered, medicated, etc. should things go a little haywire and we're forced to stay away from the public for a time.

former player

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #163 on: February 26, 2020, 09:04:39 AM »
The lockdown in China has been for a month already with not much sign of being lifted.  Being prepared for a couple of weeks might not cut it.

OtherJen

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #164 on: February 26, 2020, 09:12:57 AM »

Around here, people panic and clear out bread and milk from grocery stores in response to an announcement about a snowstorm that might close schools for a day. I can only imagine what they will do when the first coronavirus case is detected locally. Avoiding the inevitable panic by buying the next pack of toilet paper from Costco a month ahead of actual need and stashing it in the garage doesn't seem too irrational.

This....times 100. I live in the southern U.S. and the mere threat of snow flurries is enough to clear grocery stores of bread and milk in a matter of hours.

I generally fall on the side of being prepared to hunker down for a few days or a week out of precaution due to past experiences with prolonged power outages. For that reason, we tend to keep a little more of the necessities on-hand than the average, and would be fine to stay home for a week to 10 days if we needed to should this thing explode in the states. We're not staying up at night wringing our hands about it, but I'm following the reports and making sure we'd be well-fed, watered, medicated, etc. should things go a little haywire and we're forced to stay away from the public for a time.

It makes a bit (only a bit, mind you) more sense in the South. I have always lived just outside of Detroit (meaning that snow is a regular thing), and I remember my parents panicking about bread and milk. I was an only child with lactose intolerance, and it wasn't as if the pantry or fridge was ever empty. I never could understand why we needed to have those two ingredients.

OtherJen

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #165 on: February 26, 2020, 09:13:21 AM »
The lockdown in China has been for a month already with not much sign of being lifted.  Being prepared for a couple of weeks might not cut it.

We do what we can.

Papa bear

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #166 on: February 26, 2020, 09:16:08 AM »
French toast emergencies. Need to keep milk, bread, and eggs on hand. 


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Imma

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #167 on: February 26, 2020, 09:41:15 AM »
In my country right now the only thing people seem to be panic buying so far is anything disinfectant. All the shelves are empty.

Scientists of MMM: is regular rubbing alcohol basically the same stuff as hand sanitizer but not as conveniently packed? Because I've got a bottle of that, and a small bottle of hand sanitizer that I carry with me to music festivals.

I paid a bit more attention to hygiene today and if this stuff is more contagious than the flu it's going to be extremely difficult to avoid of it spreads. I am constantly touching things that other people touch: the button to open the train door, the folding table in the train, the cloth roll towel dispensers in the most busy train station in the country that you need to touch after washing your hands. The bus home that's packed with people standing up in the isles.

I have an appointment with my doctor tomorrow and I'm certainly going to ask them for some guidance about this, considering I'm more vulnerable to this than the average person.

(Not in panic mode yet, haven't bought 200 rolls of tp yet)

former player

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #168 on: February 26, 2020, 09:43:14 AM »
The lockdown in China has been for a month already with not much sign of being lifted.  Being prepared for a couple of weeks might not cut it.

We do what we can.
Yes, of course.  And being prepared for a couple of weeks of lockdown will work if you happen to be in a one-off hotspot where everyone affected can be quarantined and be declared free of the virus after two weeks.  But if this thing does spread it is far more likely to be a "new normal" for the next 3 months, until we see if the warmer weather affects transmission of the virus.  So as well as being prepared for the two week lockdown perhaps we all need to think about "how can I keep as close to a normal life going without putting myself at risk of catching this thing?"

beltim

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #169 on: February 26, 2020, 09:46:16 AM »
Scientists of MMM: is regular rubbing alcohol basically the same stuff as hand sanitizer but not as conveniently packed? Because I've got a bottle of that, and a small bottle of hand sanitizer that I carry with me to music festivals.

It works the same way, but it's a lot harsher on your skin.

GuitarStv

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #170 on: February 26, 2020, 09:46:26 AM »
French toast emergencies. Need to keep milk, bread, and eggs on hand. 


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Wait, it's not 'Freedom' toast in the US?  :P

erutio

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #171 on: February 26, 2020, 09:46:57 AM »

Scientists of MMM: is regular rubbing alcohol basically the same stuff as hand sanitizer but not as conveniently packed? Because I've got a bottle of that, and a small bottle of hand sanitizer that I carry with me to music festivals.

Yes, you described it perfectly.

frugaldrummer

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #172 on: February 26, 2020, 10:00:06 AM »
Soap and water will also work fine at home.

nereo

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #173 on: February 26, 2020, 10:09:03 AM »

Scientists of MMM: is regular rubbing alcohol basically the same stuff as hand sanitizer but not as conveniently packed? Because I've got a bottle of that, and a small bottle of hand sanitizer that I carry with me to music festivals.

Yes, you described it perfectly.
Concur with erutio.  Plain old rubbing alcohol can be used as sanitizer, and it’s what we use in the BSL-II on all countertops, microscopes etc. Basically everything that can’t go into the autoclave gets wiped down with alcohol.   Also good to wipe your keyboards, cell phones etc. daily with a towel that has rubbing ethanol on it.

There’s also the dirt-cheap bleach solution.  While I don’t recommend using it on skin, it’s an approved disinfectant, even in food prep areas (use 1/2 cup bleach per gallon of water.  Never use full strength... or really any stronger than this).   

Plain ol’ soap and water is also extremely useful; while it doesn’t kill the virus, washing your hands removes the dirt and oils that encapsulates the virus, and it gets washed down the drain.

dougules

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #174 on: February 26, 2020, 10:25:46 AM »

Scientists of MMM: is regular rubbing alcohol basically the same stuff as hand sanitizer but not as conveniently packed? Because I've got a bottle of that, and a small bottle of hand sanitizer that I carry with me to music festivals.

Yes, you described it perfectly.
Concur with erutio.  Plain old rubbing alcohol can be used as sanitizer, and it’s what we use in the BSL-II on all countertops, microscopes etc. Basically everything that can’t go into the autoclave gets wiped down with alcohol.   Also good to wipe your keyboards, cell phones etc. daily with a towel that has rubbing ethanol on it.

There’s also the dirt-cheap bleach solution.  While I don’t recommend using it on skin, it’s an approved disinfectant, even in food prep areas (use 1/2 cup bleach per gallon of water.  Never use full strength... or really any stronger than this).   

Plain ol’ soap and water is also extremely useful; while it doesn’t kill the virus, washing your hands removes the dirt and oils that encapsulates the virus, and it gets washed down the drain.

Alcohol (which is also the main ingredient in hand sanitizer) is good for killing bacteria, but does it destroy viruses?

dougules

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #175 on: February 26, 2020, 10:33:41 AM »
I think it's a good idea to have a few weeks worth of nonperishable food stocked up in general.   Nothing special, just keep some extra stock of the items you are eating anyway.  Riding out a quarantine isn't the only situation where that might come in handy.  It could be an earthquake or a weather event.  It could be some kind of supply or distribution disruption.  It's just a generally good thing for emergency preparedness.  It also allows you to take advantage of good sales. 

hops

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #176 on: February 26, 2020, 10:35:52 AM »
Our stockpile of groceries, household supplies and medications is already pretty robust (in case of any kind of emergency), but we're replenishing a few items ahead of schedule as a precaution.

I'm on several immunosuppressive drugs and so far my doctors are making the usual recommendations about hygiene, travel, etc. One sent out a reminder about which drugs to temporarily discontinue at the first sign of infection (any infection) and another changed how he writes a prescription to allow me to keep more on hand in case there's an ingredient shortage down the line.



Cassie

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #177 on: February 26, 2020, 10:44:11 AM »
I read that hand sanitizers don’t work for this virus.

frugaldrummer

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #178 on: February 26, 2020, 10:45:25 AM »
Just a word about masks - you will see many articles saying if you're well, you don't need to wear a mask. The main driver behind these articles is they don't want people to hoard disposable masks when we need them for hospitals and the like. I agree.

I DO recommend wearing a cloth mask when things get more widespread. No, it's not 100% effective at protecting you but it will reduce your risk, and greatly reduce the risk of you giving it to someone else if you have an asymptomatic infection.  Cloth masks can be washed and reused and won't impact the healthcare system.

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #179 on: February 26, 2020, 10:51:49 AM »

Scientists of MMM: is regular rubbing alcohol basically the same stuff as hand sanitizer but not as conveniently packed? Because I've got a bottle of that, and a small bottle of hand sanitizer that I carry with me to music festivals.

Yes, you described it perfectly.
Concur with erutio.  Plain old rubbing alcohol can be used as sanitizer, and it’s what we use in the BSL-II on all countertops, microscopes etc. Basically everything that can’t go into the autoclave gets wiped down with alcohol.   Also good to wipe your keyboards, cell phones etc. daily with a towel that has rubbing ethanol on it.

There’s also the dirt-cheap bleach solution.  While I don’t recommend using it on skin, it’s an approved disinfectant, even in food prep areas (use 1/2 cup bleach per gallon of water.  Never use full strength... or really any stronger than this).   

Plain ol’ soap and water is also extremely useful; while it doesn’t kill the virus, washing your hands removes the dirt and oils that encapsulates the virus, and it gets washed down the drain.

Alcohol (which is also the main ingredient in hand sanitizer) is good for killing bacteria, but does it destroy viruses?

It destroys most (but not all) viruses.  Importantly, alcohol is effective against influenza virus, which is similar to COVID-19, so much so the CDC has ported the response protocols for influenza outbreaks to this one.  Currently, WHO recommends frequent hand washing and/or using alcohol-based hand sanitizers as strategies for this outbreak.

Also just toss out there that while alcohol won’t kill all viruses, there isn’t another consumer-available substance which will do a better job. For those that are resistant to alcohol and bleach, heat (i.e. autoclaving) is your best/only bet.  And you can’t autoclave your hands.

FWIW viruses straddle the definition of what is “alive”.  One of the reasons why they are harder to “kill” is because some varieties can basically go totally inert at the metabolic level.

dougules

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #180 on: February 26, 2020, 10:56:56 AM »
Concur with erutio.  Plain old rubbing alcohol can be used as sanitizer, and it’s what we use in the BSL-II on all countertops, microscopes etc. Basically everything that can’t go into the autoclave gets wiped down with alcohol.   Also good to wipe your keyboards, cell phones etc. daily with a towel that has rubbing ethanol on it.

There’s also the dirt-cheap bleach solution.  While I don’t recommend using it on skin, it’s an approved disinfectant, even in food prep areas (use 1/2 cup bleach per gallon of water.  Never use full strength... or really any stronger than this).   

Plain ol’ soap and water is also extremely useful; while it doesn’t kill the virus, washing your hands removes the dirt and oils that encapsulates the virus, and it gets washed down the drain.

Alcohol (which is also the main ingredient in hand sanitizer) is good for killing bacteria, but does it destroy viruses?

It destroys most (but not all) viruses.  Importantly, alcohol is effective against influenza virus, which is similar to COVID-19, so much so the CDC has ported the response protocols for influenza outbreaks to this one.  Currently, WHO recommends frequent hand washing and/or using alcohol-based hand sanitizers as strategies for this outbreak.

Also just toss out there that while alcohol won’t kill all viruses, there isn’t another consumer-available substance which will do a better job. For those that are resistant to alcohol and bleach, heat (i.e. autoclaving) is your best/only bet.  And you can’t autoclave your hands.

FWIW viruses straddle the definition of what is “alive”.  One of the reasons why they are harder to “kill” is because some varieties can basically go totally inert at the metabolic level.

Yes, people seem to forget a lot of times that viruses aren't anything like bacteria.  I purposefully used the word "destroy" instead of "kill". 

You did mention washing with soap and water, and wouldn't that be the best option if you're near a sink?  You're washing the viruses down the drain instead of "killing" them. 
« Last Edit: February 26, 2020, 11:24:12 AM by dougules »

BlueHouse

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #181 on: February 26, 2020, 10:58:18 AM »
So, I’m not particularly concerned about coronavirus yet, though I could be wrong. But.... those of you who lean away from providing health insurance for all, think about the implications of large numbers of our population not being financially able to seek health care when they have a communicable disease.

Be selfish if you must. But recognize your selfishness might come back to bite you.

This is ridiculous. They walk into an emergency room at a public hospital and will receive care regardless fo whether or not they have health insurance. People need to stop spreading this lie.

Sure. People who suspect they *might* be sick, but who don't have insurance, are gonna immediately go to the emergency room, wait 6 hours to be tested to make sure they are quarantined if necessary before they get *too* sick -- because they're gonna be completely confident they'll never have to pay a resulting exorbitant emergency bill that will dog them for years.

THOSE PEOPLE ALREADY DO THIS!!! Holy guacamole
Could you define who exactly "THOSE PEOPLE" are? 

honeybbq

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #182 on: February 26, 2020, 11:12:36 AM »
How will emergency rooms keep themselves from being places where people just share the disease?  I had to take DH into the emergency room for some complications from surgery one time, and I came away from it with a bad cold.

Most ERs, clinics, and hospitals have a large mask/kleenex/hand sanitizer station right when you enter. I suggest you use all 3. Try not to touch anything.

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #183 on: February 26, 2020, 11:14:50 AM »
I read that hand sanitizers don’t work for this virus.

The CDC disagrees.
Although soap and water is fine.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/guidance-prevent-spread.html

frugaldrummer

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #184 on: February 26, 2020, 11:47:11 AM »
Just a word about masks - you will see many articles saying if you're well, you don't need to wear a mask. The main driver behind these articles is they don't want people to hoard disposable masks when we need them for hospitals and the like. I agree.

I DO recommend wearing a cloth mask when things get more widespread. No, it's not 100% effective at protecting you but it will reduce your risk, and greatly reduce the risk of you giving it to someone else if you have an asymptomatic infection.  Cloth masks can be washed and reused and won't impact the healthcare system.

frugaldrummer

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #185 on: February 26, 2020, 11:50:03 AM »
Quote
I read that hand sanitizers don’t work for this virus.

Hand sanitizers with alcohol will work. Those without alcohol and with triclosan (which is antibacterial) will not.  (Don't use triclosan anyway, bad for us).

Imma

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #186 on: February 26, 2020, 11:51:42 AM »
I normally wash my hands with soap and water but my issue with that in public places quite often you need to dry your hands with a cloth roll instead of paper towels for environmental reasons. In theory only people who have washed their hands touch the cloth but everyone knows that's not how it works. Today I was at the most busy train station in my country and cloth was the only option. As a layperson that doesn't seem sensible to me.


SimpleCycle

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #187 on: February 26, 2020, 11:53:20 AM »
So, I’m not particularly concerned about coronavirus yet, though I could be wrong. But.... those of you who lean away from providing health insurance for all, think about the implications of large numbers of our population not being financially able to seek health care when they have a communicable disease.

Be selfish if you must. But recognize your selfishness might come back to bite you.

This is ridiculous. They walk into an emergency room at a public hospital and will receive care regardless fo whether or not they have health insurance. People need to stop spreading this lie.

This is not a lie.  First, less than 20% of the hospitals in the U.S. are public hospitals.  I don't know why people think that non-profit hospitals are "public", they are not and while they are required under EMTALA to provide emergency medical care, they still charge for that care.

Second, I think people have a huge misunderstanding of what is required by EMTALA.  Hospitals serving the public (not public hospitals!) are required to "stabilize and treat" anyone regardless of ability to pay, but that is it.  So you walk in with the sniffles, they are required to assess if you have an Emergency Medical Condition and then they can discharge you with no further care.  They are not required to provide any follow up care either.  At my local ER you'd be charged $1800 for that assessment, a bill you would be obligated to pay.

Third, I think there is a greater point to be made that people will avoid care due to costs, even those with insurance.

I think it's quite reasonable to make the point that all people having access to quality medical care is part of our public health infrastructure, and a part that the U.S. is currently failing at.

SimpleCycle

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #188 on: February 26, 2020, 11:59:59 AM »
Just a word about masks - you will see many articles saying if you're well, you don't need to wear a mask. The main driver behind these articles is they don't want people to hoard disposable masks when we need them for hospitals and the like. I agree.

I DO recommend wearing a cloth mask when things get more widespread. No, it's not 100% effective at protecting you but it will reduce your risk, and greatly reduce the risk of you giving it to someone else if you have an asymptomatic infection.  Cloth masks can be washed and reused and won't impact the healthcare system.

There is literally zero research saying that cloth masks are effective.  Surgical procedure masks are not especially effective at preventing you from getting sick (the research is mixed), but might prevent you from spreading your sickness to others.  Fit tested n95 respirators lessen the chances of getting sick, but suffer from supply problems.

I find the idea that I shouldn't buy n95 respirators so that the healthcare system can have them kind of silly and doubt that is the motivation behind saying not to wear them.  I work for a company that has a large hospital supply chain business, and we don't get our n95 respirators from Walgreens.  It is true that CDC recommendations on who should wear respirators in a healthcare setting are based on balancing supply concerns with protection concerns, because masks are not an unlimited resource.  But retail mask sales are not diverting from the healthcare supply chain.

Metalcat

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #189 on: February 26, 2020, 12:01:48 PM »
Just a word about masks - you will see many articles saying if you're well, you don't need to wear a mask. The main driver behind these articles is they don't want people to hoard disposable masks when we need them for hospitals and the like. I agree.

I DO recommend wearing a cloth mask when things get more widespread. No, it's not 100% effective at protecting you but it will reduce your risk, and greatly reduce the risk of you giving it to someone else if you have an asymptomatic infection.  Cloth masks can be washed and reused and won't impact the healthcare system.

I generally advise people *not* to wear masks unless they are educated as to how to use them properly. For most people, a mask will just make them touch their face more, which is kind of counter productive.

I'm pretty sure you've mentioned being a medical professional, have you forgotten what it was like when everyone was first learning basic infection control? I train staff on this and it's suuuuuper frustrating getting people to a point where you can actually trust them to use PPE in a safe way.

cowpuncher10

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #190 on: February 26, 2020, 12:10:11 PM »
So, I’m not particularly concerned about coronavirus yet, though I could be wrong. But.... those of you who lean away from providing health insurance for all, think about the implications of large numbers of our population not being financially able to seek health care when they have a communicable disease.

Be selfish if you must. But recognize your selfishness might come back to bite you.

This is ridiculous. They walk into an emergency room at a public hospital and will receive care regardless fo whether or not they have health insurance. People need to stop spreading this lie.

Sure. People who suspect they *might* be sick, but who don't have insurance, are gonna immediately go to the emergency room, wait 6 hours to be tested to make sure they are quarantined if necessary before they get *too* sick -- because they're gonna be completely confident they'll never have to pay a resulting exorbitant emergency bill that will dog them for years.

THOSE PEOPLE ALREADY DO THIS!!! Holy guacamole

Yeah. All of them.

Before they’re super duper sick.

They all go to the emergency room just as a precaution.

And of course, the emergency rooms will have the capacity to handle them all during this, too.

ONCE AGAIN WHAT DOES NOT HAVING UNIVERSAL HEALTH INSURANCE HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THIS? They are going to the emergency room no matter what. With or without health insurance......how are you not grasping this? Hell I would venture that the people without are more likely to go to the ER than people with FFS.

[MOD NOTE: Banned]
« Last Edit: February 26, 2020, 08:12:40 PM by FrugalToque »

OtherJen

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #191 on: February 26, 2020, 12:12:33 PM »
So, I’m not particularly concerned about coronavirus yet, though I could be wrong. But.... those of you who lean away from providing health insurance for all, think about the implications of large numbers of our population not being financially able to seek health care when they have a communicable disease.

Be selfish if you must. But recognize your selfishness might come back to bite you.

This is ridiculous. They walk into an emergency room at a public hospital and will receive care regardless fo whether or not they have health insurance. People need to stop spreading this lie.

Sure. People who suspect they *might* be sick, but who don't have insurance, are gonna immediately go to the emergency room, wait 6 hours to be tested to make sure they are quarantined if necessary before they get *too* sick -- because they're gonna be completely confident they'll never have to pay a resulting exorbitant emergency bill that will dog them for years.

THOSE PEOPLE ALREADY DO THIS!!! Holy guacamole

Yeah. All of them.

Before they’re super duper sick.

They all go to the emergency room just as a precaution.

And of course, the emergency rooms will have the capacity to handle them all during this, too.

ONCE AGAIN WHAT DOES NOT HAVING UNIVERSAL HEALTH INSURANCE HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THIS? They are going to the emergency room no matter what. With or without health insurance......how are you not grasping this? Hell I would venture that the people without are more likely to go to the ER than people with FFS.

Kris doesn’t seem to lack reading comprehension.

I will echo BlueHouse’s question: who exactly are “THOSE PEOPLE”?

cowpuncher10

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #192 on: February 26, 2020, 12:51:39 PM »
So, I’m not particularly concerned about coronavirus yet, though I could be wrong. But.... those of you who lean away from providing health insurance for all, think about the implications of large numbers of our population not being financially able to seek health care when they have a communicable disease.

Be selfish if you must. But recognize your selfishness might come back to bite you.

This is ridiculous. They walk into an emergency room at a public hospital and will receive care regardless fo whether or not they have health insurance. People need to stop spreading this lie.

Sure. People who suspect they *might* be sick, but who don't have insurance, are gonna immediately go to the emergency room, wait 6 hours to be tested to make sure they are quarantined if necessary before they get *too* sick -- because they're gonna be completely confident they'll never have to pay a resulting exorbitant emergency bill that will dog them for years.

THOSE PEOPLE ALREADY DO THIS!!! Holy guacamole

Yeah. All of them.

Before they’re super duper sick.

They all go to the emergency room just as a precaution.

And of course, the emergency rooms will have the capacity to handle them all during this, too.

ONCE AGAIN WHAT DOES NOT HAVING UNIVERSAL HEALTH INSURANCE HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THIS? They are going to the emergency room no matter what. With or without health insurance......how are you not grasping this? Hell I would venture that the people without are more likely to go to the ER than people with FFS.

Kris doesn’t seem to lack reading comprehension.

I will echo BlueHouse’s question: who exactly are “THOSE PEOPLE”?

People without insurance? Is it that hard to understand? Are you trying to box me in on some discrimination or bigot BS? I used to be one of THOSE PEOPLE when I was younger. Whats the God damn problem?

frugaldrummer

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #193 on: February 26, 2020, 12:54:15 PM »
Re: masks - if everyone wore a mask, it would greatly cut down on transmission as asymptomatic/mild cases would not be spreading the germ as much. Asian countries with their emphasis on social obligations seem to understand this.

As personal protection, it is less but still somewhat helpful. If you're touching your mask with your hands but washing your hands properly you will reduce risk. Masks obviously have to be washed nightly in hot water and hands should be washed after removing them.

N95 masks are more effective but also more difficult to wear and should be reserved for hospital staff as there will be shortages.

nereo

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #194 on: February 26, 2020, 01:17:14 PM »
Re: masks - if everyone wore a mask, it would greatly cut down on transmission as asymptomatic/mild cases would not be spreading the germ as much. Asian countries with their emphasis on social obligations seem to understand this.

As personal protection, it is less but still somewhat helpful. If you're touching your mask with your hands but washing your hands properly you will reduce risk. Masks obviously have to be washed nightly in hot water and hands should be washed after removing them.

N95 masks are more effective but also more difficult to wear and should be reserved for hospital staff as there will be shortages.

There are literally dozens of occupations that can and should wear N95 masks throughout the course of the day.  There is a reason why they are sold in every hardware store, and its not disease prevention. P95 masks are the ones most effective at preventing the spread of airborne pathogens, not N95, though if you have no other option an N95 - worn properly - will suffice.

Again - they need to be changed every three hours, not “washed nightly in hot water”.
Improper mask use can actual spread the virus, as increase exposure risk.  If you are wearing a mask all day, and then hand washing it with nothing but hot water you’re increasing your own risk.

OtherJen

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #195 on: February 26, 2020, 01:19:32 PM »
So, I’m not particularly concerned about coronavirus yet, though I could be wrong. But.... those of you who lean away from providing health insurance for all, think about the implications of large numbers of our population not being financially able to seek health care when they have a communicable disease.

Be selfish if you must. But recognize your selfishness might come back to bite you.

This is ridiculous. They walk into an emergency room at a public hospital and will receive care regardless fo whether or not they have health insurance. People need to stop spreading this lie.

Sure. People who suspect they *might* be sick, but who don't have insurance, are gonna immediately go to the emergency room, wait 6 hours to be tested to make sure they are quarantined if necessary before they get *too* sick -- because they're gonna be completely confident they'll never have to pay a resulting exorbitant emergency bill that will dog them for years.

THOSE PEOPLE ALREADY DO THIS!!! Holy guacamole

Yeah. All of them.

Before they’re super duper sick.

They all go to the emergency room just as a precaution.

And of course, the emergency rooms will have the capacity to handle them all during this, too.

ONCE AGAIN WHAT DOES NOT HAVING UNIVERSAL HEALTH INSURANCE HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THIS? They are going to the emergency room no matter what. With or without health insurance......how are you not grasping this? Hell I would venture that the people without are more likely to go to the ER than people with FFS.

Kris doesn’t seem to lack reading comprehension.

I will echo BlueHouse’s question: who exactly are “THOSE PEOPLE”?

People without insurance? Is it that hard to understand? Are you trying to box me in on some discrimination or bigot BS? I used to be one of THOSE PEOPLE when I was younger. Whats the God damn problem?

It really isn't hard to understand. Yet, you seem to have ignored most of the previous responses to your post and seem to be escalating in hostility.

I posted earlier that both private hospital ERs and the contract companies that staff them can and do sue uninsured patients for lack of payment. Others have posted that the current laws do not obligate ERs to provide anything beyond basic stabilizing care to people without the means to pay. Still others have noted that in the absence of laws ensuring a basic universal level of healthcare (beyond extremely basic stabilizing care) and worker protections such as sick days, we are likely to have a large population of underinsured people in the US who will continue to work while sick until they are forced to stop, thus spreading the virus further. (In fact, this already happens with influenza and other transmissible illnesses.)

From a personal perspective, my husband is paid hourly and our insurance via his employer is contingent on his continued status as a full-time employee. If his 4-week hourly average drops below the set limit for full-time status, we will lose our insurance. If his employer is forced to close, we will be uninsured until we can get a healthcare marketplace plan set up. Worst-case scenario: if we're both sick, what is the likelihood that we will have the mental capacity to do so?

Sick people in other developed countries don't have to worry about this. THAT's the point that many of us are making.

FrugalToque

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #196 on: February 26, 2020, 01:32:27 PM »
So, I’m not particularly concerned about coronavirus yet, though I could be wrong. But.... those of you who lean away from providing health insurance for all, think about the implications of large numbers of our population not being financially able to seek health care when they have a communicable disease.

Be selfish if you must. But recognize your selfishness might come back to bite you.

This is ridiculous. They walk into an emergency room at a public hospital and will receive care regardless fo whether or not they have health insurance. People need to stop spreading this lie.

Sure. People who suspect they *might* be sick, but who don't have insurance, are gonna immediately go to the emergency room, wait 6 hours to be tested to make sure they are quarantined if necessary before they get *too* sick -- because they're gonna be completely confident they'll never have to pay a resulting exorbitant emergency bill that will dog them for years.

THOSE PEOPLE ALREADY DO THIS!!! Holy guacamole

Yeah. All of them.

Before they’re super duper sick.

They all go to the emergency room just as a precaution.

And of course, the emergency rooms will have the capacity to handle them all during this, too.

ONCE AGAIN WHAT DOES NOT HAVING UNIVERSAL HEALTH INSURANCE HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THIS? They are going to the emergency room no matter what. With or without health insurance......how are you not grasping this? Hell I would venture that the people without are more likely to go to the ER than people with FFS.

I'm not sure what the communication issue here is:

People without health insurance don't go to a doctor when they get sick, because they can't afford it.
People are afraid to go to the ER because they will get an even larger bill from the hospital
People will not got to the ER until they are desperately sick.
By the time they go, it's too late for quarantine.

If you had universal healthcare and a good sick day policy, the moment you realize you're getting ill, you'd stop going to work, hit the doctor's office, find out what disease you have an quarantine yourself.

Poverty and lack of universal healthcare will contribute to the spread of disease.

Toque.

cowpuncher10

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #197 on: February 26, 2020, 01:33:39 PM »
So, I’m not particularly concerned about coronavirus yet, though I could be wrong. But.... those of you who lean away from providing health insurance for all, think about the implications of large numbers of our population not being financially able to seek health care when they have a communicable disease.

Be selfish if you must. But recognize your selfishness might come back to bite you.

This is ridiculous. They walk into an emergency room at a public hospital and will receive care regardless fo whether or not they have health insurance. People need to stop spreading this lie.

Sure. People who suspect they *might* be sick, but who don't have insurance, are gonna immediately go to the emergency room, wait 6 hours to be tested to make sure they are quarantined if necessary before they get *too* sick -- because they're gonna be completely confident they'll never have to pay a resulting exorbitant emergency bill that will dog them for years.

THOSE PEOPLE ALREADY DO THIS!!! Holy guacamole

Yeah. All of them.

Before they’re super duper sick.

They all go to the emergency room just as a precaution.

And of course, the emergency rooms will have the capacity to handle them all during this, too.

ONCE AGAIN WHAT DOES NOT HAVING UNIVERSAL HEALTH INSURANCE HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THIS? They are going to the emergency room no matter what. With or without health insurance......how are you not grasping this? Hell I would venture that the people without are more likely to go to the ER than people with FFS.

Kris doesn’t seem to lack reading comprehension.

I will echo BlueHouse’s question: who exactly are “THOSE PEOPLE”?

People without insurance? Is it that hard to understand? Are you trying to box me in on some discrimination or bigot BS? I used to be one of THOSE PEOPLE when I was younger. Whats the God damn problem?

It really isn't hard to understand. Yet, you seem to have ignored most of the previous responses to your post and seem to be escalating in hostility.

I posted earlier that both private hospital ERs and the contract companies that staff them can and do sue uninsured patients for lack of payment. Others have posted that the current laws do not obligate ERs to provide anything beyond basic stabilizing care to people without the means to pay. Still others have noted that in the absence of laws ensuring a basic universal level of healthcare (beyond extremely basic stabilizing care) and worker protections such as sick days, we are likely to have a large population of underinsured people in the US who will continue to work while sick until they are forced to stop, thus spreading the virus further. (In fact, this already happens with influenza and other transmissible illnesses.)

From a personal perspective, my husband is paid hourly and our insurance via his employer is contingent on his continued status as a full-time employee. If his 4-week hourly average drops below the set limit for full-time status, we will lose our insurance. If his employer is forced to close, we will be uninsured until we can get a healthcare marketplace plan set up. Worst-case scenario: if we're both sick, what is the likelihood that we will have the mental capacity to do so?

Sick people in other developed countries don't have to worry about this. THAT's the point that many of us are making.

Thats not the point that kris was making...but you do you. Keep straw manning.

Kris

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #198 on: February 26, 2020, 01:35:04 PM »
So, I’m not particularly concerned about coronavirus yet, though I could be wrong. But.... those of you who lean away from providing health insurance for all, think about the implications of large numbers of our population not being financially able to seek health care when they have a communicable disease.

Be selfish if you must. But recognize your selfishness might come back to bite you.

This is ridiculous. They walk into an emergency room at a public hospital and will receive care regardless fo whether or not they have health insurance. People need to stop spreading this lie.

Sure. People who suspect they *might* be sick, but who don't have insurance, are gonna immediately go to the emergency room, wait 6 hours to be tested to make sure they are quarantined if necessary before they get *too* sick -- because they're gonna be completely confident they'll never have to pay a resulting exorbitant emergency bill that will dog them for years.

THOSE PEOPLE ALREADY DO THIS!!! Holy guacamole

Yeah. All of them.

Before they’re super duper sick.

They all go to the emergency room just as a precaution.

And of course, the emergency rooms will have the capacity to handle them all during this, too.

ONCE AGAIN WHAT DOES NOT HAVING UNIVERSAL HEALTH INSURANCE HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THIS? They are going to the emergency room no matter what. With or without health insurance......how are you not grasping this? Hell I would venture that the people without are more likely to go to the ER than people with FFS.

Please read this response to your earlier comment.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/coronavirus-preparedness/msg2568743/#msg2568743

Also, shouting will not make your remarks any more true.

cowpuncher10

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Re: Coronavirus preparedness
« Reply #199 on: February 26, 2020, 01:36:44 PM »
So, I’m not particularly concerned about coronavirus yet, though I could be wrong. But.... those of you who lean away from providing health insurance for all, think about the implications of large numbers of our population not being financially able to seek health care when they have a communicable disease.

Be selfish if you must. But recognize your selfishness might come back to bite you.

This is ridiculous. They walk into an emergency room at a public hospital and will receive care regardless fo whether or not they have health insurance. People need to stop spreading this lie.

Sure. People who suspect they *might* be sick, but who don't have insurance, are gonna immediately go to the emergency room, wait 6 hours to be tested to make sure they are quarantined if necessary before they get *too* sick -- because they're gonna be completely confident they'll never have to pay a resulting exorbitant emergency bill that will dog them for years.

THOSE PEOPLE ALREADY DO THIS!!! Holy guacamole

Yeah. All of them.

Before they’re super duper sick.

They all go to the emergency room just as a precaution.

And of course, the emergency rooms will have the capacity to handle them all during this, too.

ONCE AGAIN WHAT DOES NOT HAVING UNIVERSAL HEALTH INSURANCE HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THIS? They are going to the emergency room no matter what. With or without health insurance......how are you not grasping this? Hell I would venture that the people without are more likely to go to the ER than people with FFS.

I'm not sure what the communication issue here is:

People without health insurance don't go to a doctor when they get sick, because they can't afford it.
People are afraid to go to the ER because they will get an even larger bill from the hospital
People will not got to the ER until they are desperately sick.
By the time they go, it's too late for quarantine.

If you had universal healthcare and a good sick day policy, the moment you realize you're getting ill, you'd stop going to work, hit the doctor's office, find out what disease you have an quarantine yourself.

Poverty and lack of universal healthcare will contribute to the spread of disease.

Toque.

People who are sick, WITHOUT INSURANCE, go to the ER every freaking day. EVERY. DAY. They don't wait until it is critical. They go when they get the damn sniffles.

People WITH INSURANCE are LESS LIKELY to go because of costs.

People WITHOUT INSURANCE are LESS LIKELY to care about cost because they are already WITHOUT INSURANCE.