Coping with Baby-Boomer Irresponsible Parents?

[ubermich]

I come seeking emotionally-detached advice.  My wife and I recently turned 30 and make about $70k/yr (combined) as a teacher and accounting clerk (respectively).  Throughout our married life we have been able to save and operate within a reasonable budget.

But then the mothers attacked.  Both of our mothers are divorced and bought houses in the late 90s.  Neither of our mothers did anything to maintain either of their houses.  A couple years ago one of the mothers lost her job due to disability (spine injury and musculoskeletal disorder, completely unable to work).  Several months ago she ran out of money completely.  When we took over the bills to prevent her from becoming homeless we found out she had not filed for disability/welfare/early-retirement/food stamps/etc.  The disability application is finally in, but in the meantime we are starting to take on water from the dilapidated house and medical bills.

The other mother is financially independent currently, but will be reaching retirement in about 10 years and has not saved.  I'm hoping she will have her house paid down enough that she can survive on Social Security when the time comes, but I'm not confident that will be the case.

So Mustachians, I ask: What would you do?  Would you let Mother A go homeless?  Would you try helping Mother B start saving for retirement?  Would you run off to a far away land and never look back?  Would you take on the medical debt and try to get the houses repaired?

I've reached the point where I pray for tornadoes and lightning.  Please advise. :)

[Cassie]

It sounds like Mother 1 can't afford her house so should sell "as is" condition and be done with that. Then she should look at moving into low income senior apartments which usually are very nice. You only need to be 55 or disabled.  Just one and not both.  M 2 I would see if she is open to a discussion to what her future will look like.  YOu can also look at Meals on Wheels for #1. They are really good and either free or small donation. It is totally up to the recipient. I would google resources for seniors and see what you get. At your income you can't afford to support Moms. They need to get it together. I find it pretty disturbing that #1 let you pay her bills and did not apply for anything to help herself.

[SwordGuy]

No, you should not take on the medical debt.  That is what bankruptcy is for.

It would not hurt to tell MIL B that she had better get her financial ducks in a row because MIL A's medical situation has drained you.   If MIL B can't connect the dots on her own (or won't), connect them for her.   Sometimes it pays to be friendly and caring, but equally blunt and direct.  Never underestimate the ability of people to ignore the strongest hints if they don't want to face something.

[little_brown_dog]

A 70k income is great for a couple, but as you are finding, it is not large enough to support yourselves, two homes, and a woman with serious medical bills. I would help as much as possible WITHOUT GIVING MORE MONEY.  For Mother A, that could mean helping her sell her home, helping her fill out the paperwork for assistance programs, checking in on her and assisting around the house, organizing her debts/finances, etc.  You will probably have to have an honest and hard conversation with her where you tell her you cannot continue to support her after X date and you want to figure out a plan. It sounds like you have your hands full with Mother A right now, so I would focus on fixing that situation first and then worry about Mother B.

To me, your first responsibility is to yourself and your wife. You admit you are taking on water due to Mother A's issues. You need to put your wife and yourself first, and if that means cutting mom off then so be it. Please remember, just because you can't pay for her does not mean you are abandoning her. You can help her in many different ways, some of which are probably alot more constructive than just paying off her bill collectors.

[ZMonet]

Sorry you're in this situation.  Both mothers are lucky to have you.

Depending on the size of the medical/other debt, you should look to help Mother A out with bankruptcy.  If there is any equity in the home, this could potentially be preserved for Mother A.  Once debts are taken care of, hopefully disability, etc. will take care of living expenses.  Regardless, getting rid of all of the debt should make things a bit simpler.

Mother B still has some time and, as the other posters have said, I'd have a talk with her and help her get a handle on her finances and make clear that you guys are not her retirement plan.  At least Mother B can continue to work if the numbers don't add up.

[ubermich]

Thank you all very much.  I feel a little less like the terrible person I sometimes think I am.

Regarding Mother A: We probably can't leave her alone.  When we starting taking things over the house was probably in a bad enough condition to justify calling APS (had I known such a department existed I would have called before we started cleaning the place up!)  We really don't want her to wind up in a home because the ones in our area are miserable.  We exhausted ourselves looking for local facilities for Mother A's mother and they all had halls crowded with wheelchair-bound elderly, eyes glazed over, and some crying for help or to get out.  Mother A isn't immobile but isn't able to take care of herself properly either.  She would probably be a great candidate for retirement community/light assisted living, but the only places in those categories we have found are ultra-expensive.  Maybe she could do a low income apartment with someone to come by and help with cleaning and such once the disability finally kicks in?

We have also looked at selling the house and all of us moving to a place with a mother-in-law suite or two structures so she can maintain some of her independence but we can still keep things in check.  Is anyone familiar with a solution like this?

At this point we aren't touching medical bill collectors, just trying to keep her from becoming homeless and non-insured.  But the mortgage is $1150/mo, insurance is $600/mo, and prescriptions are $450/mo.  Thank GOD (and Dave Ramsey and MMM!) we were debt free with savings before all this!  Can you imagine if we had thought our financial literacy education given to us by our parents was sufficient!?

Regarding Mother B: Again, thank you for making me feel a little less like a heartless monster.  The talk will be put on our to-do list once we get Mother A sorted.

[Josiecat]

Is Mother A on Medicaid?  If not, she should be. 

[ubermich]

Is Mother A on Medicaid?  If not, she should be.

Not yet. As soon as the government processes the paperwork site will be. Most of the problem is that she took two years to get all the paperwork "just right."  The good news is that the case probably won't be denied. The bad news is it will probably take the SSA several lifetimes to go through all the medical records.

[Rhoon]

The following advice is purely based on your own comfort level and your own ability (and time) to fix up Mom A's house:

Houses appreciate with time and are good investments. Fix it up and rent it, or fix it up and sell it. Depends how bad it is I guess. IF there are structural issues, then sell it as is. If it's all just maintenance (including the shingles -- not the underlying boards and trusses), then you should be able to treat it as an investment.

Get Mom A out of the house, move her in with you (got an extra bedroom???) and get that house rented and producing income.

Don't have the time or capital to put anything into it? "we buy ugly houses" ... they pay cash ( though at a seriously negative discount).

[RosieTR]

I'd try to minimize whatever of Mother A's bills you are paying to what is absolutely essential. If there is little equity in the house, the mortgage may not be worth paying. Start talking to a lawyer per bankruptcy. If you pay or have paid any of her bills from your own funds, keep strict track. It may be worth creating a new checking account during this process to keep this very clear. Not sure what if any compensation you might receive down the line, but worth keeping track anyway. Especially if there are other siblings, who might later swoop in and accuse you of financial misdeeds with mom's estate.

[ubermich]

Thankfully, the house does have equity. She owes just under 50k.  If she sold as is tomorrow she'd realistically get about 90-110k.  If the maintenance and updates get done it's worth 220-250k.

I wish I had thought of the spare account before!  I wonder if detailed mint records and bank records will suffice?  Siblings probably won't be an issue. I'm an only child and my wife will be the payee representative for her brothers (both disabled).  The wills are also in place.

[Cassie]

Sell the house now as is, put her in  a low income senior apartment ( she will only pay 30% of her income) and get home health aides to come in to help with baths, etc. Look into programs to help pay for this.  It is really easy to get Meals on Wheels so all her food will be taken care of. You really do need to take some action to get this stuff done.  The ugly house people will only give you about 10k cash and then they will sell it to someone as a rent to own so realistically it could take you years to get your $. I would get a realtor and sell it as is.

[SimplyMarvie]

See if she can get retroactive medicaid. If she would have been income eligible in the three prior months to the date of her application, sometimes you can backdate and have any medical bills incurred paid under Medicaid. Other than that, let 'em go to collections. Your job here is to keep her basic needs (housing, medical care, food) covered, not to save her credit score. Bankruptcy might be the best option.

Also, go with her to her next appointment and talk to her doctor about her prescriptions. It sounds like she's on a number of medications and perhaps having some cognitive functioning-related side effects. Talk to the doctor about generics, equivalents that are lower cost and review the whole medical history. Bring her pill bottles so they can confirm refill dates, etc. that she's taking as designed.

I don't think Mom A is a candidate for medicaid-funded full-time care, but getting the wraparound care that she needs to stay in her home can be really difficult. Disability will really help this, since it gives her access to a greater number of programs. Unless you're willing to take care of that house full-time, it might be best to sell it -- the Mom clearly isn't going to be able to handle ongoing upkeep at this point and you've got to decide whether that's how you want to use your time.

[Cassie]

SM: is right that sometimes meds can make it appear that someone has dementia when they do not so get this checked out with a doc soon.  Good luck:))

[Josiecat]

Medicaid is different from disability and has nothing to do with SSA.  She need to get Medicaid right away.  It is administered through the state she lives in.  Do a google search for your state and get her signed up right away.

[Jakejake]

This might be the world's worst suggestion ... but could the two moms combine households and live together, instead of maintaining two separate houses?

[FIREby35]

Also, just a thought, there are attorneys who help with Disability applications after a denial (which hopefully will not happen). As I understand it, there is no cost to you as the client because the federal statute makes an allowance for payment of fees for an incorrect denial originally.

Just fyi, I'm an attorney but not a disability benefits attorney specifically. So, I could be wrong about the above. But, my main point is for you to know there are specific attorneys for that issue if you need it.

Also, you are not a monster. It is a reminder of why keeping your own financial house in order is a gift to your children (if you have them). Don't let grandma's pass this burden on to your kids by draining you and making you dependent on the next generation.

[frugaldrummer]

Disability applications are almost always denied initially, be prepared for this, my friend's husband had dementia from a serious brain injury and they still needed an attorney to get him disability.

Also, find out what the financial limitations are - I believe you have to spend down your assets before you can get permanent disability?  Not sure on this, the house equity is probably excluded but if she sells the house and has $50k sitting in the bank, she might not be able to get SSDI until that is spent down?  Again, I'm no expert, but check to make sure it isn't an issue before you make a decision about selling the house. 
Is the house large enough for her to exchange free rent to a roommate for some household help?

Also you need to take over her finances, she's obviously got some mental issue going on.  Often mishandling of finances is an early sign of dementia.   Perhaps her neuromuscular condition is also affecting her brain, or perhaps it's a medication or alcohol issue. 

When you think of getting a place with a granny flat, be sure to think of whether you can get along with her living so close by.  It could be an ideal arrangement IF you get along and are prepared to have her in your lives daily.  But be prepared she'll want your time and attention.  (My mom lives with me and is very independent, still works 3 days a week, cooks etc.  But she definitely wants some of my time and attention when I get home from work.)   

When will she be 65?  What is her life expectancy?  Does she have any kind of a pension, or will she get social security benefits based on an ex-souse's earnings?

[ubermich]

This might be the world's worst suggestion ... but could the two moms combine households and live together, instead of maintaining two separate houses?

We thought about it!  If they did that we suspect it would be 1-2 months before they would murder each other (which, yes, I recognize as another potential solution but I think it would be frowned upon).

[Cassie]

There are no income limits to getting SSDI. You earned it by working. It often takes 2 years for a application to get approved. They keep denying and hope you go away. If you miss the appeal deadlines you start all over.  Eventually it goes before a trial judge who will hire a vocational expert (someone like me) to help him make the decision.  We would recommend attorneys only when the client wasn't able to do the paperwork adequately because once won a third of the back pay would go to the attorney.  When you  finally win they back pay you for all the time you were denied. Very few people get it the first time unless a doctor says they are terminal.

[ubermich]

There are no income limits to getting SSDI. You earned it by working. It often takes 2 years for a application to get approved. They keep denying and hope you go away. If you miss the appeal deadlines you start all over.  Eventually it goes before a trial judge who will hire a vocational expert (someone like me) to help him make the decision.  We would recommend attorneys only when the client wasn't able to do the paperwork adequately because once won a third of the back pay would go to the attorney.  When you  finally win they back pay you for all the time you were denied. Very few people get it the first time unless a doctor says they are terminal.

We are moving for power of attorney to get things expedited.  She's been sitting on application paperwork and hiding it from us.

Out of curiosity, is SSDI affected if she worked a job that didn't pay into Social Security (she worked for the county MHMR ironically enough)?

[little_brown_dog]

You asked about living with Mother A by buying a home with an in law suite. We are considering this for our parents as well. I think in law suites are a great solution for families who get along and where the elders are in generally good health and can routinely contribute to the family either financially or by offering other services like helping to care for kids, maintaining the home, etc.

The problem is, I don’t see this as a viable long-term solution for you. Even if you get along great with mother A, you would essentially still be taking over all of her expenses, so while it may reduce how much you spend to support her, you would still be financially supporting her with higher utility bills and most likely a bigger mortgage and property taxes (given than homes with separate in law suites are often much more expensive). While you may save a bit of money, you are still fully supporting her.

 She also has serious health issues, which means you will be expected to provide a lot of increasingly complex caregiving. At first this may be do-able, but as her illness progresses and as she ages, the care needs will probably outstrip your level of competence and/or your energy reserves. You may find yourself starting to become the primary caregiver to an incapacitated adult, which is an extremely stressful task. You can grin and bear it, but that often fractures marriages and relationships and causes serious resentment. Or you will have to pay for someone to care for her in home, or make the tough decision to move her into a facility. If you look into this, go into it with your eyes fully open and be really clear about how far you will take this caregiving thing. You must set boundaries at the beginning (“mom, when it comes time where you cannot walk well/go to the bathroom on your own/are falling/etc, we will not be able to care for you”) or else things could go terribly wrong. Plan the backup plan. Do not just expect you will be able to care for a frail elder for years without seriously impacting your own finances, relationships, and life goals.

[BFGirl]

There are no income limits to getting SSDI. You earned it by working. It often takes 2 years for a application to get approved. They keep denying and hope you go away. If you miss the appeal deadlines you start all over.  Eventually it goes before a trial judge who will hire a vocational expert (someone like me) to help him make the decision.  We would recommend attorneys only when the client wasn't able to do the paperwork adequately because once won a third of the back pay would go to the attorney.  When you  finally win they back pay you for all the time you were denied. Very few people get it the first time unless a doctor says they are terminal.

We are moving for power of attorney to get things expedited.  She's been sitting on application paperwork and hiding it from us.

Out of curiosity, is SSDI affected if she worked a job that didn't pay into Social Security (she worked for the county MHMR ironically enough)?

Powers of attorney can be very helpful.  I think she has to have enough "credits" to get SSDI and I think credits are earned by paying SS taxes.  You may want to double check this, because I am not sure.  However, if she doesn't qualify for SSDI, she may qualify for SSI because she is disabled.  If she qualifies for SSI, I believe she may also be able to get Medicaid.  I think SSI has both an "income" and "resources" test.

Does she have any friends still at MHMR?  Although she is not the population that they generally serve, they may have some information on resources that could assist her.  There may also be city/county programs that can help pay some of her bills for a period of time.  I wouldn't pay anything for her that isn't necessary to maintain her health and well-being.  Bankruptcy is for situations like this.

You also might want to look at information on Community Based Alternatives (CBA).  It is a program that can help get seniors into alternate living arrangements than a nursing home and is a Medicaid program, but it can take a while to get into.

Just some thoughts.  Each state has different things available and you might look at specific things for your state. 

[rockstache]

If you look into this, go into it with your eyes fully open and be really clear about how far you will take this caregiving thing. You must set boundaries at the beginning (“mom, when it comes time where you cannot walk well/go to the bathroom on your own/are falling/etc, we will not be able to care for you”) or else things could go terribly wrong. Plan the backup plan. Do not just expect you will be able to care for a frail elder for years without seriously impacting your own finances, relationships, and life goals.

+1 from a girl who moved in with a healthy grandma for fun and is now the primary caregiver. Are you (or your wife) ready to help with showers? It happened gradually for me, and my husband has been affected too. It is a choice I made, but I would caution you to be aware of it before it just 'happens.'

[acroy]

This might be the world's worst suggestion ... but could the two moms combine households and live together, instead of maintaining two separate houses?

We thought about it!  If they did that we suspect it would be 1-2 months before they would murder each other (which, yes, I recognize as another potential solution but I think it would be frowned upon).

Hahaha, sounds like a good solution to me ;)

earlier on you mentioned the house:  If she sold as is tomorrow she'd realistically get about 90-110k.  If the maintenance and updates get done it's worth 220-250k."

that's a helluva return on investment. Grab that opportunity!

[MrsPete]

This might be the world's worst suggestion ... but could the two moms combine households and live together, instead of maintaining two separate houses?

I was actually going to make the same suggestion.  Any chance the two of them could share a townhouse?  Companionship and no maintenance. 

[Cassie]

If she is vested with a retirement plan that did not pay into SS then she needs to apply for a disability pension thru them. She won't be eligible for SSDI. So find out first if she is vested in the other plan.  Usually it is easier to get a disability pension then SSDI.   However, if she only had 5 years etc the amount she receives will be small.  I can't remember how old she is but if not eligible for SSDI she will still be eligible for her regular SS when old enough.  The rules are complicated when you retire from somewhere that did not pay into SS. How much you receive from SS greatly varies depending on how many years you had with SS and if you earned what they considered "substantial earnings" for each year. SS has a table that tells you about it.  You also can look up how much she earned per year and compare with the tables.

[Catbert]

I realize this doesn't help with your current "emergency" situation, but I think the best thing that children can do to help elderly* parents is to figure out things rather than giving money.  Figuring out Medicaid, getting on low-income senior housing lists, finding a way to get medication cheaper, bankruptcy attorney consultation, food stamp requirements, APS, etc.  Giving money isn't going to solve her long-term issues.

In this case I would talk to a bankruptcy attorney to see what the impact would be on her house.  Then get her on a list for senior housing and sell the house as-is when she's able to get into subsidized housing.

*I hate to say "elderly" since its very likely that your MIL is only my age (mid-60s). 

[RetiredAt63]

OT - me too - and why put the Baby Boomer in the title?  Irresponsible parents (and responsible parents) can be any age/any generation. Labels - ugh.

*I hate to say "elderly" since its very likely that your MIL is only my age (mid-60s).

[Rosy]

Here is my two cents of advice, coming from another baby boomer - hey, that was a very good thing once upon a time:)

What you can do right now:

1.Quick - easy and so worth it: Get the GoodRX app (both for info about the meds (they also have an online presence) and to find the best price on the meds) - saves you serious money.

2. Go on line and look up ssa.gov and set up an on line account right now for each one of the moms. It is not difficult to do and once set up you can go back in anytime.
3. The account at the soc sec site will tell you everything you need to know, how many years worked and what payments to expect etc.
4. Then call SSA with your questions - you might have to call a few times and yes you have to wait forever, but you will get solid, valid information, so you no longer have to guess.

5. Is there a possibility that either Mom could collect either survivor Social Security from their husbands death or perhaps be eligible under their husbands SS? If there is, make an appointment at the SS office and they'll have money coming in six weeks later. (I had not even known that I could do that, got over $1600 mo and Medicare coverage just like that, all done and first payment within two weeks) Of course, once I looked into it, I made sure I had all my papers and information with me and it was all set up in one appointment.

6. Keep the house, until you have more information. It sounds like a good investment possibility as long as it is structurally sound or all things considered an easy enough fix. That is when a professional opinion is essential.

7. Tell the other Mama that ten years is plenty of time to plan her future retirement. There are still plenty of opportunities for her to stash some cash, find a side gig, rent a room whatever it takes. Time to start kicking butt - some of this is so easy, it only becomes complicated once you are ill.

Sorry to hear you have your hands full, but I can tell you from experience, if you keep on looking for information and solutions you will make it happen. I went through something similar with my mother who was extremely difficult to deal with. She's 87 and she was no fun to deal with, didn't help that she lives overseas and there was plenty of family drama I assure you:)

It is not right that one mom is eating up everyones resources and in all honesty, no one will blame you for feeling resentful. This is/was an entirely preventable situation and I would keep that in mind as you struggle with making it right.

You must look out for your own health and financial well being first or you will be useless to your own family. Treat your own future self with respect - you did it right by living below your means and saving up, which doesn't mean you should give it all up for someone else, family or not.

Lots of good information here, Medicaid might be an immediate, temporary solution, depending on your state at least until she gets her disability. I can only echo that everyone I've ever heard of did not receive their disability in the first attempt. So be prepared to deal with that. There are plenty of lawyers who specialize in that for a fee of course, but it is practically a necessary evil.

Good luck and keep us posted on your progress.

[Cassie]

Trust me and figure out if she is eligible for a retirement from the plan that did not pay into SS. This will make all the difference in what happens with SS, etc. You don't want to waste time applying for SSDI when she does not qualify. I have been though this with friends and clients.

[FIREby35]

OT - me too - and why put the Baby Boomer in the title?  Irresponsible parents (and responsible parents) can be any age/any generation. Labels - ugh.

*I hate to say "elderly" since its very likely that your MIL is only my age (mid-60s).

Hahaha! Baby-boomers are all the same (insert x,y,z generational stereotype). Says the smiling 31 year-old "Millennial."

In case you can't tell, I'm just joking because that sounds like about a million threads on this forum about labeling millennials lazy or some other trait.

[Choices]

It's wonderful that you care about your family and want to help, but you're not in a position to take on their financial burdens. Whatever you do, DO NOT sign for any of their debt. If they die as is, the debt will die with them (sorry to be morbid) but if you sign for it it'll be yours forever.

MIL A should sell her house since she can't maintain it. There are tons of benefits to being a renter in the right situation.

MIL B needs to plan, and maybe you can help her.

Please consider reading Boundaries by Henry Cloud. It's a life-changer for sure.

You can afford to give unconditional love, but financially supporting those two will guarantee that you will be the same burden to your own children.

[greengardens]

Be aware that there are often asset limitations for qualifying for Medicaid. If she sells the house she likely wouldn't be able to put most or all of the proceeds in her bank account. The limits vary but I would suggest talking to an attorney before selling the home to see what should be done so that the house can be sold and so she can retain Medicaid and other benefit eligibility.

[LeRainDrop]

OT - me too - and why put the Baby Boomer in the title?  Irresponsible parents (and responsible parents) can be any age/any generation. Labels - ugh.

*I hate to say "elderly" since its very likely that your MIL is only my age (mid-60s).

Hahaha! Baby-boomers are all the same (insert x,y,z generational stereotype). Says the smiling 31 year-old "Millennial."

In case you can't tell, I'm just joking because that sounds like about a million threads on this forum about labeling millennials lazy or some other trait.

Well, the reason OP put "Baby Boomer" in the title is probably because the two people he is specifically asking for advice about are both Baby Boomers.  The questions is not how to cope with anyone's parents in general, but these two specific Boomers that are in OP's life.  Someone could have started a thread like, "Should I help my irresponsible brother?"  And then RetiredAt63 would be there, commenting, "Why'd you have to put "brother" in the title?  Irresponsible people could be brothers or sisters.  Labels - ugh."  Another reason is to provide some context -- if OP were 20, asking for advice about dealing with 45-year-old parents, the advice would probably be drastically different from if the OP were 65, asking for advice about dealing with 90-year-old parents.

[giggles]

FYI:  SSA does NOT accept power of attorney, so that won't help you and they will not speak to you about her claim.  Take a day off, and walk in or make an appointment to visit an office with her to go over what she is and isn't eligible for.  Might be eligible under her ex spouse.