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Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: FINate on February 24, 2018, 01:09:57 PM

Title: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks [Update: It doesn't but moved elsewhere]
Post by: FINate on February 24, 2018, 01:09:57 PM
We're looking to relocate out of sunny California in the next 1-2 years. Potential locations are coalescing around the PNW, mostly due to proximity to outdoor activities and family within reasonable driving distance (holidays and such). Most likely candidate at the moment is Bend, OR or thereabouts. I'm well aware of the climate (from historical data), cost of living (higher than average, but a fraction of our stupidly HCOL area), lack of industry (we're FIRE), and the obvious stuff I can find online. Obviously we will make some trips during different seasons to get a better feel for the place. But visiting is not the same as day-to-day living. So very interested in hearing from Mustachians who live in Bend, have lived there, spend considerable amount of time there, or who have close friends/families there.

Mostly interested in hearing about "dark horses" that we may not even be aware of. What I'm really asking for is a bitch session, all gripes are on the table, no matter how big or small or how much you think I may or may not care about it. Get in touch with your inner critic and convince me that it's a terrible place to live.

As an example, for anyone considering moving to the Santa Cruz area I would complain about:

I think you get the idea. So please, fire away.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: Bracken_Joy on February 24, 2018, 03:42:37 PM
GLADLY ;) So, I have spent a ton of time over there in my life, although I'm from the Valley over the mountains. Recently, some family has moved over there, so the past couple years I've been spending even more times over in that area. Also, I worked on a ranch near then as a teen, so I've logged a fair amount of Bend time.

My complaints:
1. This is my main one and is going to be really hard to verbalize. The culture there feels... fake. Like it's a facade, that doesn't actually permeate into people's lives. It comes across cute when you visit, but the day to day life doesn't actually have a city culture like you would expect. It's a cute downtown, but the people that live there don't walk it. There are cute brew pubs, but they aren't actually that good compared to the rest of the PNW, and have very few locals. Everything closes early, people smile but aren't warm, and there isn't the sort of community/cohesive culture that visiting would lead you to believe. There just... isn't the community involvement, spirit, and distinct identity you would expect from that much local business.
2. Tourists. Everywhere. Enough said there I think. But the flip side of this... the locals might seem friendly, but a lot of them resent visitors. They know they rely on their money, and they don't like it. I don't know if this translates to permanent Californian transplants, but it's a time honored tradition elsewhere in Oregon to actively and legitimately dislike Californians and blame them for not being able to afford the life you want. So I would just... wonder, how that would turn out culturally. That said, I think a lot of people do move to Bend from elsewhere, as opposed to being natives. More like Portland in that respect, rather than Salem/Eugene/Ashland/Medford.
3. The urban/rural divide. This characterizes all of Oregon, but Bend really embodies it. Oregon votes blue, yes. But that's because we have dots of bright blue, swimming in a sparsely populated sea of red. This leads to HUGE culture clashes, and this is especially true in Bend. The neighborhood you pick matters. Whether you drive a truck or a Leaf is a MAJOR political statement, and will influence who associates with you. It's way more conservative than the other major cities in Oregon, but a lot of the political decision makers are progressives... leads to a culture clash.
4. The winter is dry as fuckballs. Buy a humidifier, and lotion, and still expect to have bloody noses and cracked knuckles.
5. Wild fire. Blizzards. Lots of natural bullshit that results in you hiking/biking/kayaking/snowboarding less than you actually expect. Also, the mountain is fuck all spendy, so if you like snow sports, I hope you have major cash to throw at it.
6. More on the climate. The numbers *can* be misleading. Snowfall may not *seem* that high, but it stays on the ground, so snow ACCUMULATION is way higher than most people expect.
7. Gardening prospects are shit. The top soil is shit. No water, too much sun burn, too short a season. You really *need* a green house to grow anything.

So. All that being said. I actually love that area. It's beautiful. It's an amazing place. But it's not the shining gem of perfection a lot of people assume =)
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: cheddarpie on February 24, 2018, 04:06:50 PM
I agree with Bracken_Joy on all of this. I am also not from there but have family there and visit a couple of times a year. I would also add that it is not cheap -- cheaper than big cities, sure, but not what you would expect for rural Oregon. It's also pretty isolated and can be hard to get out in winter.

I tried to post a photo but couldn't figure out how. When I was there last summer, it was a hot (HOT) day and we thought we might go to the river to swim. It was JAM PACKED with people on all sorts of floats, kayaks, paddle boards, pizzas, swans, you name it -- shoulder to shoulder floaties everywhere. It was like being at a water park, but way less exciting because there wasn't a slide.

Have you thought about Bellingham, Spokane, Sand Point, Boise, or Couer D'Alene? They all offer similar vibes, affordability, and proximity to the outdoors without the crazy crowds and "bro-brah" culture.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: monstermonster on February 24, 2018, 04:20:14 PM
I'm not super-duper Bend experienced, and most of my time there has been political activity/conventions but what I will say is a big downside for oregon: our crazy high income tax. Obviously coming from CA this is less of an issue, but Oregon is super high income tax bracket (9.5%) on top of whatever your federal is.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on February 24, 2018, 05:36:35 PM
GLADLY ;) So, I have spent a ton of time over there in my life, although I'm from the Valley over the mountains. Recently, some family has moved over there, so the past couple years I've been spending even more times over in that area. Also, I worked on a ranch near then as a teen, so I've logged a fair amount of Bend time.

My complaints:
1. This is my main one and is going to be really hard to verbalize. The culture there feels... fake. Like it's a facade, that doesn't actually permeate into people's lives. It comes across cute when you visit, but the day to day life doesn't actually have a city culture like you would expect. It's a cute downtown, but the people that live there don't walk it. There are cute brew pubs, but they aren't actually that good compared to the rest of the PNW, and have very few locals. Everything closes early, people smile but aren't warm, and there isn't the sort of community/cohesive culture that visiting would lead you to believe. There just... isn't the community involvement, spirit, and distinct identity you would expect from that much local business.
2. Tourists. Everywhere. Enough said there I think. But the flip side of this... the locals might seem friendly, but a lot of them resent visitors. They know they rely on their money, and they don't like it. I don't know if this translates to permanent Californian transplants, but it's a time honored tradition elsewhere in Oregon to actively and legitimately dislike Californians and blame them for not being able to afford the life you want. So I would just... wonder, how that would turn out culturally. That said, I think a lot of people do move to Bend from elsewhere, as opposed to being natives. More like Portland in that respect, rather than Salem/Eugene/Ashland/Medford.
3. The urban/rural divide. This characterizes all of Oregon, but Bend really embodies it. Oregon votes blue, yes. But that's because we have dots of bright blue, swimming in a sparsely populated sea of red. This leads to HUGE culture clashes, and this is especially true in Bend. The neighborhood you pick matters. Whether you drive a truck or a Leaf is a MAJOR political statement, and will influence who associates with you. It's way more conservative than the other major cities in Oregon, but a lot of the political decision makers are progressives... leads to a culture clash.
4. The winter is dry as fuckballs. Buy a humidifier, and lotion, and still expect to have bloody noses and cracked knuckles.
5. Wild fire. Blizzards. Lots of natural bullshit that results in you hiking/biking/kayaking/snowboarding less than you actually expect. Also, the mountain is fuck all spendy, so if you like snow sports, I hope you have major cash to throw at it.
6. More on the climate. The numbers *can* be misleading. Snowfall may not *seem* that high, but it stays on the ground, so snow ACCUMULATION is way higher than most people expect.
7. Gardening prospects are shit. The top soil is shit. No water, too much sun burn, too short a season. You really *need* a green house to grow anything.

So. All that being said. I actually love that area. It's beautiful. It's an amazing place. But it's not the shining gem of perfection a lot of people assume =)

Thanks, exactly the type of thing I'm looking for. Items 1-2 sound like typical tourist town woes, we have this in spades at our current location and in towns up and down the coast. Agree it's difficult to articulate - almost as if towns have a 'hollowed out' feel. Had a hunch this could possibly apply in Bend, good to know for sure.

I'm guessing based on property prices, taxes, and school ratings that west of the river is generally the 'blue' section and to the east into the desert is the 'red' section? I tend to be more of a moderate, which means I'm a certified right-wing extremist in Santa Cruz ;-) Actually would be nice to see some competitive races and vigorous campaigning. Around here it's pretty much shooting fish in a barrel as there's only one party and candidates simply pander to the base.

Looking at Mt Bachelor tickets...pretty reasonable compared to Lake Tahoe, LOL. Our plan is to homeschool by then, so if we decide to get into it we'll probably opt for midweek season passes. Alternatively, cross-country is also an option. If there is decent snow accumulation closer to town it could mean quicker access for cross-country. But yeah, good to know that the snow doesn't melt quickly and that gardening is difficult, something for us to ponder.

Thanks again, very good info.

 
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on February 24, 2018, 05:48:12 PM
I agree with Bracken_Joy on all of this. I am also not from there but have family there and visit a couple of times a year. I would also add that it is not cheap -- cheaper than big cities, sure, but not what you would expect for rural Oregon. It's also pretty isolated and can be hard to get out in winter.

I tried to post a photo but couldn't figure out how. When I was there last summer, it was a hot (HOT) day and we thought we might go to the river to swim. It was JAM PACKED with people on all sorts of floats, kayaks, paddle boards, pizzas, swans, you name it -- shoulder to shoulder floaties everywhere. It was like being at a water park, but way less exciting because there wasn't a slide.

Have you thought about Bellingham, Spokane, Sand Point, Boise, or Couer D'Alene? They all offer similar vibes, affordability, and proximity to the outdoors without the crazy crowds and "bro-brah" culture.

Thanks for the info on the river crowds, not terribly surprising but good to have our expectations in check. Any idea what it's like further outside of town, up or down river or at the many nearby lakes? A crowd in town can be fun from time to time, but nice to be able to drive a reasonable distance to get some peace and quiet.

This is one of my pet peeves with our current location. There's quite literally no place within half a day's drive that is not overrun because of the 7 million people in the SF Bay Area (not even including population of neighboring counties such as our own). Once a cool local spot (secluded swimming hole or similar) hits social media...forgetaboutit it! In this respect the isolation of Bend is kind of attractive to me, though I wonder if I we will tire of being 3 hours from the nearest city. On the other hand, no need to commute and can order stuff online if we can't get it in town.

As a Californian it's good to be reminded that mountain passes in winter can be problematic, so thanks for that.

EDIT: We've looked at Spokane and Boise, didn't check some of the boxes for us. Will look into Bellingham, Sand Point, and Couer D'Alene (but for some reason DW has an aversion to ID...think I would love it, but she has a mental block about it for some reason). Thanks for the suggestions.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on February 24, 2018, 05:50:21 PM
I'm not super-duper Bend experienced, and most of my time there has been political activity/conventions but what I will say is a big downside for oregon: our crazy high income tax. Obviously coming from CA this is less of an issue, but Oregon is super high income tax bracket (9.5%) on top of whatever your federal is.

Oh, good thought. Not just the top rate, but the brackets are different. As far as I can tell our increase in income taxes will be slightly more than offset by decrease in property taxes (based on the price/size/location of homes we're looking at). I guess we'd come out ahead because of zero sales tax. Thanks!
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on February 24, 2018, 06:16:47 PM
It has been many years since I visited, but I was surprised how much I liked Walla Walla, WA.  The mountains and wine country are beautiful.  Whitman College makes it more liberal leaning than much of Eastern WA.  And no income tax.

Thanks! I'll check it out. Plus, it's fun to say :)
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: cheddarpie on February 24, 2018, 06:18:27 PM
Thanks for the info on the river crowds, not terribly surprising but good to have our expectations in check. Any idea what it's like further outside of town, up or down river or at the many nearby lakes? A crowd in town can be fun from time to time, but nice to be able to drive a reasonable distance to get some peace and quiet.

I don't know about other swimming options outside of town, but I would guess there are more than plenty that are less crowded. There are lots of great camping options too. A good friend of mine who used to live in Bend recently moved to Hood River, so that might be another option too -- or look on the Washington side of the river where there's no income tax. :)

EDIT: We've looked at Spokane and Boise, didn't check some of the boxes for us. Will look into Bellingham, Sand Point, and Couer D'Alene (but for some reason DW has an aversion to ID...think I would love it, but she has a mental block about it for some reason). Thanks for the suggestions.

I really like northern Idaho but I understand where the aversion comes from. Idaho in general is super conservative politically, but even of the reddest of red counties have a little purple in them. :) Northern Idaho still has a very PNW feel too it -- big trees, water, etc.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on February 24, 2018, 07:14:42 PM
I don't know about other swimming options outside of town, but I would guess there are more than plenty that are less crowded. There are lots of great camping options too. A good friend of mine who used to live in Bend recently moved to Hood River, so that might be another option too -- or look on the Washington side of the river where there's no income tax. :)

Yes, lots of camping options relative to population. Alpine lakes in the Cascades, and larger warmer weather reservoirs at lower elevations, plenty of backpacking options. I see there are a couple of Limited Entry Permit areas for overnight trips, yet huge chunks of the Sierra Nevada now have quotes that fill up 3-6 months in advance. The thought of being within 1 hr drive of so many options and midweek camping with few crowds is enticing.

I really like northern Idaho but I understand where the aversion comes from. Idaho in general is super conservative politically, but even of the reddest of red counties have a little purple in them. :) Northern Idaho still has a very PNW feel too it -- big trees, water, etc.

Could be an option in the future. I think it depends on how well we take to our first move.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: Stache-O-Lantern on February 24, 2018, 07:25:10 PM
I have an aversion to both Santa Cruz and Bend for many of the reasons outlined above!

For example, Californian's in Santa Cruz might forget that California has lots of mountain passes that can be problematic in winter!  ;) 

As a Californian it's good to be reminded that mountain passes in winter can be problematic, so thanks for that.


I had a college friend that moved to Bend and started a business and family and bought a home.  They seem to love it there.

I spent 2 weeks in McCall, Idaho and thought it was great.  If I was looking at Idaho I would consider it. But mind you, that was 20 years ago.

What about Ashland, Oregon?  I spent a summer outside of town there.  Hip, smallish college town.  The Shakespeare plays bring in lots of culture and out-of-town money.  Skiing nearby.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on February 24, 2018, 08:05:13 PM
I have an aversion to both Santa Cruz and Bend for many of the reasons outlined above!

For example, Californian's in Santa Cruz might forget that California has lots of mountain passes that can be problematic in winter!  ;) 

As a Californian it's good to be reminded that mountain passes in winter can be problematic, so thanks for that.


I had a college friend that moved to Bend and started a business and family and bought a home.  They seem to love it there.

I spent 2 weeks in McCall, Idaho and thought it was great.  If I was looking at Idaho I would consider it. But mind you, that was 20 years ago.

What about Ashland, Oregon?  I spent a summer outside of town there.  Hip, smallish college town.  The Shakespeare plays bring in lots of culture and out-of-town money.  Skiing nearby.

Ashland/Medford/Grants Pass area is on the shortlist, plan on checking it out. Comparable cost of living, climate is a bit more mild. And lots of great mountain biking, though that's probably true of most small cities in OR. IMO, has more of a Northern California look to it - not a bad thing necessarily, just different.

EDIT: And yes, this lowlander central coast Californian is an ass for assuming that Californians elsewhere in the state don't deal with winter conditions :)
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: monstermonster on February 25, 2018, 08:51:15 AM
No one has mentioned this yet, but diversity is a huge problem in Oregon, even more so in Bend. It's super white and the racists roots are pretty deep in that part of the state, especially the activity of white supremacists in the area. Coming from Santa Cruz it might be a shock. Even though Santa Cruz is really white for CA, it's still a lot more diverse than our most diverse city in Oregon (Portland).

Most recent census: 91.3% White, 0.5% African American, 0.8% Native American, 1.2% Asian, 0.1% Pacific Islander, 3.4% from other races, and 2.6% from two or more races Considering how small the town is, that means there's about 400 black people in all of Bend.


Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: rdaneel0 on February 25, 2018, 09:14:35 AM
My biggest gripe about Bend, Oregon (Oregon in general actually) is the total lack of diversity. I know it's not important to everyone, but the first time I visited I found it pretty shocking. The second I stepped off the plane I was like, "woahhhhh...so white".

Seriously almost everyone is white and speaks English, to the point where you really notice when you do occasionally see a POC or hear a different language. This lack of diversity is reflected in the grocery stores, cultural offering, vibe of the cities, etc. It even seems like everyone dresses the same, has similar interests, political views (based on town), etc. So it's homogeneous beyond just race.

It is a truly beautiful area geographically, but I just don't feel comfortable in really non-diverse areas so I wouldn't want to live there. I also find there's an insular mindset, which is very common in non-diverse areas (whether they're in the south or PNW), and there is some definite bitterness specifically towards "rich" Californians moving to Oregon and "taking" all the good property.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on February 25, 2018, 10:28:52 AM
Good points on diversity and language. One internet commenter wrote that it's like an "Aryan REI." My guess is this is true of most of the PNW? As already pointed out, Santa Cruz isn't exactly multicultural, though we like to talk about it incessantly. In fact, it seems Santa Cruz is becoming more white, and maybe more asian, as wealthy tech workers (I'm a former software engineer) move into the area. I should point out that Santa Cruz and California also has a racist underbelly that never really gets talked about - no idea how it compares to other areas.

I fully expect to be hated as part of the California invasion. I get it. Over the decades I've watched as my home area has had a mass influx of people move in, and then tourists on top of that. I don't hate the people coming here, they are just trying to live and make ends meet like everyone else, though I do understand the angst.

And I've become accustomed to being despised. Santa Cruz is very Xenophobic; I moved to Santa Cruz from a neighboring county 15 years ago and I'm still not considered a "local." As a political moderate (hunter/shooter who supports reasonable gun control, as one example) I'm used to never really fitting in, being attacked from both sides. Same for being a Christian who believes in science and evolution; there's something for everyone to hate :) Don't care anymore. Honestly, one of the main things we'll be looking for when we check places out is a small, authentic church community. No megachurch or big show, just people living out life and the faith together...this could make or break a location for us.

Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: pdxvandal on February 25, 2018, 10:24:46 PM
I really enjoy Bend when I visit, but agree with previous posters that it is a little fake. It wasn't always like that, but it's boomed the past 15 years. When I was growing up, it was a sleepy town of 10,000 people. Now, it's like 90k.

Another point to consider is that it's pretty remote and isolated. There's a small airport in Redmond, but the closest real airport is 2.5 hours away in Portland. And if you head east, it's mostly desolate until Boise, which is 5 hours away.

After living in Oregon for nearly 20 years, I prefer Ashland, Astoria and Hood River, but to each his/her own.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: iluvzbeach on February 25, 2018, 10:57:48 PM
When you’re checking out Ashland/Medford, swing by Jacksonville. Super-quaint town, with lots to do in and around town, including the Britt Music Festival each summer. We stopped in for the first time in 2011 and decided we just had to make it home.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on February 25, 2018, 11:02:10 PM
Thanks for all the input/things to think about. Appreciate the unvarnished truth as we evaluate our options. As Bracken_Joy put it "it's not the shining gem of perfection a lot of people assume" which is true of every location but still, great to have a more realistic view of things. Has also prompted us to evaluate a couple of other locations more seriously.

Happy to hear any other thoughts people may have, just wanted to say thanks for the thoughtful responses so far.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on February 25, 2018, 11:07:50 PM
When you’re checking out Ashland/Medford, swing by Jacksonville. Super-quaint town, with lots to do in and around town, including the Britt Music Festival each summer. We stopped in for the first time in 2011 and decided we just had to make it home.

Thanks for the tip! Very interesting. I've heard (and also mentioned on this thread) that Bend has summer wildfires, and I think Ashland/Medford had a bad fire season last summer. What's your view on it?
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on February 26, 2018, 02:47:21 PM
Happy to elaborate. Some of this may seem familiar as I've adapted some of MMMs ideas.

Size: 50-200k. Fairly large range, just not too small or too large. Doesn't have to be all in one city, e.g. could be a smaller city within a few miles of a larger city or multi-city corridor, though I prefer a compact medium size city over small towns spread out. Want reasonable amenities within a few miles: parks, library, hardware store, groceries, etc. Much fewer than 50k and IMO it gets too sparse. Much larger than 200k and it starts to feel large and sprawling.

Cost of living: Average or somewhat above is fine. Santa Cruz is over 2x the average, with housing 4.4x average :(

Distinctness: Self contained city that is not a bedroom community or suburb of a larger city. Strongly prefer being more than 2+ hours from a large metro area. I don't mind tourists, but don't want to be in an area where a neighboring large city empties into for weekend day trips. Decent downtown, doesn't need to be perfect, just good enough for occasional dates and family nights out. Would continue doing most trips by bike. One of the aspects of WA and OR I find compelling are the urban growth boundaries: Cities are for living, everything else is for agriculture and/or visiting. 

Climate: Prefer drier, colder winter (i.e. snow) over rain. Anything in summer is fine as long as it's not excessively hot (110+. Once in a while is fine, just not weeks on end).

Proximity to outdoor activities: Hiking, backpacking, camping, hunting, fishing, mountain biking, road biking...love it all and want options nearby. Was an avid skier/snowboarder in college and interested in getting back into it, but want to be within an hour. Also interested in getting back into backcountry skiing/snow camping. The winter stuff is simply too much of an ordeal for us right now at 5+ hrs each way. Variety is also important. One of my happy places is near/just above treeline - cold alpine lakes, gnarled wind blown trees, snowy peaks in summer. But also enjoy a hot day at a river or lake at lower elevations and appreciate the stark beauty the high desert.

Culture: Somewhat balanced. Not too hippy-dippy. Nothing against hippies, but interested in more than old run down victorians festooned with prayer flags as far as the eye can see (exaggerating, I know). Also not looking for Trumptown. Specifically, since I enjoy hunting there's a certain type of hunter very annoying. Probably unavoidable, but would like to minimize the loud arrogant type that brags a lot and is more interested in shooting shit and killing things than being in nature appreciating the privilege of harvesting from the land. Also prefer a local political scene that's focused on keeping things running and improvements. In other words, I'd like to pay taxes that go to making the city a great place to live: Clean parks, sewer capacity, water supply, business friendly regulations, redevelopment, urban infill, libraries. We like to read, and learn about nature, but not huge into Art or Performing Arts, so this is more of a bonus than a must have. Fine with occasional travel to a bigger metro for this. A certain amount of social cohesion and town spirit would be nice, yet realize that this can also work against us as 'outsiders' and an area with recent 'transplants' could mean people are a bit more accepting. University is a plus as long as it's not too large relative to the rest of the population.

I don't think there's any perfect utopia out there, and expect we will end up making tradeoffs. Deal breakers would be super extreme political culture (on either end), a city that doesn't invest in itself (either because citizens are anti-tax or anti-change), super extreme climate (though I don't think this is a problem anywhere in PNW), 50% or higher than average cost of living. Oh, and the church thing I mentioned upthread, though that's so personal that it's something we need to explore for ourselves.

Thanks for all the input and ideas. Looking at Ellensburg now :)

Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: HPstache on February 26, 2018, 03:20:31 PM
I think Wenatchee would check most of your boxes.  It's on my personal short-list of potential FI destinations.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: tralfamadorian on February 26, 2018, 03:57:15 PM
For those MMMers in the know, what is the consensus on Bellingham? I have it on my shortlist of places to FIRE/slow travel after FIRE but have never been there...
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FireHiker on February 26, 2018, 04:30:54 PM
This is really interesting. I know someone who is nearly retired (Definitely FI) who has a home in Bend and spends a fair bit of time there. He LOVES it up there but definitely tends towards the more conservative end of the spectrum. He doesn't seem to have too much trouble with people hating on him for being from So Cal, so maybe that experience varies? Or maybe he just fits in really well. He did say there is a massive influx of people in Bend from California though. I know someone else who visited there and said it was "too white" (and she is white), and that it's super dry in the winter, and colder than the coast (obviously).

We love the PNW but the lack of diversity is a concern. My uncle lives in Port Townsend and we've visited a few times. It's still not diverse, but the access to the Olympics is very appealing to us and it seemed to be a pretty laid back place. With probably 12.5 years until we can uproot and relocate we still have some time to figure it out. We really, really loved Durango, CO but I'm a bit concerned about how much more expensive health care is compared to California. Guess it's a good thing I have some time to sort it out.

FINate, it sounds like your criteria is similar to ours, except that I have zero interest in hunting (although nothing against anyone who does). I've considered parts of WY and MT but I'm not sure if it would be too "Trumpville" (in your words) or not. What is your timeframe? I'll be curious to follow along with your search for the right place. Maybe I'll get some good ideas that way.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: wbranch on February 26, 2018, 04:50:26 PM
We moved to Coeur d'Alene from the midwest last year. Your criteria sounds somewhat similar to my wife and I. Probably still in the honeymoon phase, but continue to love living here. From what I have seen most of brackenjoy's list of bad things for Bend would apply here as well.
My main complaint I had about our previous town was that I wanted to be closer to the mountains, hiking, camping, outdoors, etc. Can be in some amazing places in a 2 hr drive from our front door, and a 4 hr drive you can see some outdoors areas better than some people ever get to see IMO. 

Summer tourist traffic gets pretty heavy. But we did a lot of weekends hikes 1.5 hr drive away from town and never saw a person all day.

Last Labor Day week had insane levels of smoke cover eastern WA and North ID.

What did you not like about Spokane? For me it is a big city, but some of the surrounding small towns in WA seem pretty nice.

Around here there are quite a few complaints about people from CA, but it seems like mostly joking to me. But I am sure some take the outsiders moving in very personally. Not much you can do about that.

Since you said you are a hunter, WA does not have the best OTC general seasons even if you are a resident. A lot of WA residents are willing to pay non-resident tag prices in ID or MT.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: Telecaster on February 26, 2018, 05:05:25 PM
For those MMMers in the know, what is the consensus on Bellingham? I have it on my shortlist of places to FIRE/(very) short travel after FIRE but have never been there...

Love it.  It has got a little bit urban sprawl going on, but a nice downtown,  it has a college, lovely parks, close to outdoors, etc. 
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: HPstache on February 26, 2018, 05:10:30 PM
For those MMMers in the know, what is the consensus on Bellingham? I have it on my shortlist of places to FIRE/(very) slow travel after FIRE but have never been there...

Do you have specific questions?  I live in Bellingham.  I would say the biggest negatives are the weather (October thru March is very wet and gray), homelessness (and drugs) are becoming more noticeable and has been increasing heavily in the last decade or so, and probably lack of diversity.  I do get why people target Bellingham as a great FI location.  It checks a lot of the boxes in terms of being an outdoorsy, liberal, "lower" COL, high culture college town.  It is incredibly beautiful and I do think the people here are  genuinely authentic and kind.  There are also a ton of parks, a few micro breweries and a handful of niche theaters.

You really have to visit to experience it.  Personally, it's not the right FI town for me as I do not particularly enjoy the weather (I've even lived here the majority of my life) and it's a little to liberal / hipster for my personal taste.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on February 26, 2018, 05:25:43 PM
I think Wenatchee would check most of your boxes.  It's on my personal short-list of potential FI destinations.

Checking it out, looks interesting. I do seem drawn to cities on the eastern slopes of the Cascades :) The high country to the west looks promising. Going on my short list.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on February 26, 2018, 05:36:21 PM
FINate, it sounds like your criteria is similar to ours, except that I have zero interest in hunting (although nothing against anyone who does). I've considered parts of WY and MT but I'm not sure if it would be too "Trumpville" (in your words) or not. What is your timeframe? I'll be curious to follow along with your search for the right place. Maybe I'll get some good ideas that way.

We're planning on 1-2 years. Due to some tax planning we won't make the move for 2 years, but have the flexibility to purchase any time, so once we decide where we'll watch the market and bide our time for a good deal on something that suits us. We have some family stuff to deal with this spring/summer so our travel will be limited (though will visit a couple of spots). Planning a PNW road trip in 2019 to visit family and check out the top candidate cities.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: Davin on February 26, 2018, 05:40:27 PM
Bend is near the top of my list of potential places to relocate to, and I have spent a fair amount of time there cross country skiing and trying to sample all the beers they produce. I also lived in Santa Cruz in the early 90s and in Phoenix, OR just outside of Ashland when I was a kid. I have found Bend much more welcoming to non-locals than either Ashland or Santa Cruz.
I think you will have no trouble fitting in there based on the description you gave of yourself. Yeah, it is not very diverse, but compared to Idaho...?
My experience with the weather there is favorable compared to Ashland which freezes, but doesn't get snow, gets crazy fog, seems hotter in the summer, and is stifled by a pollution trapping inversion layer. Bend gets hot in the summer, but I have never experienced it so hot as the Rouge Valley.
Bend is Pricey compared to where I live now, but not nearly as expensive as Santa Cruz and the Bay area which is why I had to move to Humboldt, I just couldn't afford it down there.
Bend is pretty bicycle friendly, and dog friendly too.
That's just my two cents, for what it is worth.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: tralfamadorian on February 26, 2018, 05:44:36 PM
For those MMMers in the know, what is the consensus on Bellingham? I have it on my shortlist of places to FIRE/slow travel after FIRE but have never been there...
Do you have specific questions? 

I'm still a few years away so information gathering at this point. I would say that I'm looking for the traditional MMM attributes- bikeable/walkable core, outdoor activities, good people, and a culture that is supportive of people like us. I'm also a sucker for beautiful places and prefer my politics blue.

Would you agree that Bellingham ticks those boxes?

I am somewhat concerned about the homelessness and the lack of winter sunshine but I feel that is something I would just have to experience and see how it went.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: Davin on February 26, 2018, 05:45:14 PM
Bend is near the top of my list of potential places to relocate to, and I have spent a fair amount of time there cross country skiing and trying to sample all the beers they produce. I also lived in Santa Cruz in the early 90s and in Phoenix, OR just outside of Ashland when I was a kid. I have found Bend much more welcoming to non-locals than either Ashland or Santa Cruz.
I think you will have no trouble fitting in there based on the description you gave of yourself. Yeah, it is not very diverse, but compared to Idaho...?
My experience with the weather there is favorable compared to Ashland which freezes, but doesn't get snow, gets crazy fog, seems hotter in the summer, and is stifled by a pollution trapping inversion layer. Bend gets hot in the summer, but I have never experienced it so hot as the Rouge Valley.
Bend is Pricey compared to where I live now, but not nearly as expensive as Santa Cruz and the Bay area which is why I had to move to Humboldt, I just couldn't afford it down there.
Bend is pretty bicycle friendly, and dog friendly too.
That's just my two cents, for what it is worth.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: fuzzy math on February 26, 2018, 05:46:05 PM
Mt. Bachelor's summit chair lift is only open when the weather is good. And it gets really icy up there.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on February 26, 2018, 05:56:21 PM
We moved to Coeur d'Alene from the midwest last year. Your criteria sounds somewhat similar to my wife and I. Probably still in the honeymoon phase, but continue to love living here. From what I have seen most of brackenjoy's list of bad things for Bend would apply here as well.
My main complaint I had about our previous town was that I wanted to be closer to the mountains, hiking, camping, outdoors, etc. Can be in some amazing places in a 2 hr drive from our front door, and a 4 hr drive you can see some outdoors areas better than some people ever get to see IMO. 

Summer tourist traffic gets pretty heavy. But we did a lot of weekends hikes 1.5 hr drive away from town and never saw a person all day.

Last Labor Day week had insane levels of smoke cover eastern WA and North ID.

What did you not like about Spokane? For me it is a big city, but some of the surrounding small towns in WA seem pretty nice.

Around here there are quite a few complaints about people from CA, but it seems like mostly joking to me. But I am sure some take the outsiders moving in very personally. Not much you can do about that.

Since you said you are a hunter, WA does not have the best OTC general seasons even if you are a resident. A lot of WA residents are willing to pay non-resident tag prices in ID or MT.

I think Spokane is too large and sprawling. Not just the size of the population, but also the city's footprint...it's very spread out. And from what I can tell, the downtown seems lacking and heavy on chain restaurants. One place I was very interested in is Ft Collins, CO (crossed off as it's too far from family). Although it has a somewhat similar population (165k vs 210k) it's more compact, and there's more of a vibrant downtown. Spokane is also one of the only cities in the PNW I've found with a consistently higher crime rate than Santa Cruz, mostly from theft. With about 5500 thefts (per 100,000) I can guess what's going on - there's a drug problem (meth and/or opiates) and theft is how addiction is funded. 

As far as hunting...can't get much worse than CA ;-) I started hunting about 6 years ago, have never pulled a premium tag, and the OTC tags are mostly in areas with very limited public access and/or limited game. But whatever, I enjoy the challenge. If nothing else, I have learned how to avoid other hunters by packing into wilderness areas.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: Undecided on February 26, 2018, 06:42:32 PM
Bend is near the top of my list of potential places to relocate to, and I have spent a fair amount of time there cross country skiing and trying to sample all the beers they produce. I also lived in Santa Cruz in the early 90s and in Phoenix, OR just outside of Ashland when I was a kid. I have found Bend much more welcoming to non-locals than either Ashland or Santa Cruz.
I think you will have no trouble fitting in there based on the description you gave of yourself. Yeah, it is not very diverse, but compared to Idaho...?
My experience with the weather there is favorable compared to Ashland which freezes, but doesn't get snow, gets crazy fog, seems hotter in the summer, and is stifled by a pollution trapping inversion layer. Bend gets hot in the summer, but I have never experienced it so hot as the Rouge Valley.
Bend is Pricey compared to where I live now, but not nearly as expensive as Santa Cruz and the Bay area which is why I had to move to Humboldt, I just couldn't afford it down there.
Bend is pretty bicycle friendly, and dog friendly too.
That's just my two cents, for what it is worth.

Let's respect his request for negatives. Keep the positives out of it.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: koshtra on February 26, 2018, 06:50:54 PM
I'm thinking Walla Walla. Walla Walla is more or less what Bend was forty years ago.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on February 26, 2018, 08:18:57 PM
Have you considered Reno?

We came through Reno on a road trip last summer. It's nice but the downtown is...uh...interesting :) Reno has long seemed like a place ready to emerge as a destination. No income tax, affordable housing, 30 minutes to Tahoe, Burning Man (never my thing, and long in the tooth), easy access to the eastern Sierras along the highway 395 corridor, and close enough to Silicon Valley. Looks like tech companies are starting to come (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-06-22/reno-is-starting-to-look-more-like-silicon-valley). If I wanted to keep working in tech it would be high on my list. In FIRE the area further south around Carson City is more interesting. It's very near a spot in the high country that I love and spend a lot of time in. Being closer is nice, but still have the problem of dealing with crowds from the Bay Area and/or SoCal (easy trip north on 395). Also doesn't get us much closer (in drive time) to family in PNW. It's on the radar, but not a top contender at this point.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on February 26, 2018, 08:22:38 PM
Bend is near the top of my list of potential places to relocate to, and I have spent a fair amount of time there cross country skiing and trying to sample all the beers they produce. I also lived in Santa Cruz in the early 90s and in Phoenix, OR just outside of Ashland when I was a kid. I have found Bend much more welcoming to non-locals than either Ashland or Santa Cruz.
I think you will have no trouble fitting in there based on the description you gave of yourself. Yeah, it is not very diverse, but compared to Idaho...?
My experience with the weather there is favorable compared to Ashland which freezes, but doesn't get snow, gets crazy fog, seems hotter in the summer, and is stifled by a pollution trapping inversion layer. Bend gets hot in the summer, but I have never experienced it so hot as the Rouge Valley.
Bend is Pricey compared to where I live now, but not nearly as expensive as Santa Cruz and the Bay area which is why I had to move to Humboldt, I just couldn't afford it down there.
Bend is pretty bicycle friendly, and dog friendly too.
That's just my two cents, for what it is worth.

Let's respect his request for negatives. Keep the positives out of it.

That's the spirit!

Seriously though, thanks for the info Davin. The cultural points of reference between Santa Cruz and Bend are useful, as is the point about climate and air quality for the Rouge Valley.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on February 26, 2018, 09:17:54 PM
Thanks, good rundown.

You guys are seriously making me want to go to ID. The Sawtooths, Bitterroots, and even Eagle Cap Wilderness all within reach. Pretty sure it's a breach of etiquette, however, for a Californian to move straight to ID without first living in the PNW ;-) Seriously, I would consider living a bit further from extended family for it. Just not sure I can convince DW just yet, though have some time so worth a try.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: katscratch on February 26, 2018, 09:57:05 PM
Pretty sure it's a breach of etiquette, however, for a Californian to move straight to ID without first living in the PNW ;-)

Only thing worse would be moving to Portland :P ;)
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: Jesstache on February 26, 2018, 10:16:25 PM
My family has lived in Bend the past 6 years, my husband longer.  Love it here, never plan to leave.  Since we have small children we are heavily embroiled in the public school system and outdoor sports, which are excellent, by the way (I know you said you plan to home school and there's a large home school community as well).   We find it easy to make friends.  One of the most common questions asked when meeting someone new is, "How long have you lived in Bend?"  There is definitely a general dislike of "Californians" by the "locals" (who moved here first from California or Seattle or the Valley? ha) and there is quite a bit of entitlement from the long time residents or "true locals".   

Everyone else hit on most of the negatives.  If you are a facebook user, I'd suggest liking KTVZ Newschannel 21 and paying attention to the news stories posted there and read the comments on the stories if you want to know what the local issues and resident complaints are here. 

If you have any questions, feel free to pm me.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: pdxvandal on February 26, 2018, 10:57:40 PM
Idaho is part of the Pacific Northwest, so you have nothing to worry about.

Thanks, good rundown.

You guys are seriously making me want to go to ID. The Sawtooths, Bitterroots, and even Eagle Cap Wilderness all within reach. Pretty sure it's a breach of etiquette, however, for a Californian to move straight to ID without first living in the PNW ;-) Seriously, I would consider living a bit further from extended family for it. Just not sure I can convince DW just yet, though have some time so worth a try.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on February 26, 2018, 11:10:22 PM
My family has lived in Bend the past 6 years, my husband longer.  Love it here, never plan to leave.  Since we have small children we are heavily embroiled in the public school system and outdoor sports, which are excellent, by the way (I know you said you plan to home school and there's a large home school community as well).   We find it easy to make friends.  One of the most common questions asked when meeting someone new is, "How long have you lived in Bend?"  There is definitely a general dislike of "Californians" by the "locals" (who moved here first from California or Seattle or the Valley? ha) and there is quite a bit of entitlement from the long time residents or "true locals".   

Everyone else hit on most of the negatives.  If you are a facebook user, I'd suggest liking KTVZ Newschannel 21 and paying attention to the news stories posted there and read the comments on the stories if you want to know what the local issues and resident complaints are here. 

If you have any questions, feel free to pm me.

Great idea to follow the local news (duh! why didn't I think of that?). I'd feel quite at home with people bickering about who's the most "local" LOL.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: ReadySetMillionaire on February 27, 2018, 07:43:49 AM
For those MMMers in the know, what is the consensus on Bellingham? I have it on my shortlist of places to FIRE/slow travel after FIRE but have never been there...

I visited Bellingham for four days in 2015 and enjoyed it.  Nice little town, waterfront is cool, decent bar/restaurant scene, etc.  If I ever moved out there, I would move somewhere in between Bellingham and North Cascades National Park.  My wife and I hiked at Mount Baker and the creeks that flow from it, and we would often just stop dead in our tracks at the beauty of things there.  Too close to Mount Baker and you feel disconnected from civilization, but there are some small towns along the way that would be cool.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: wbranch on February 27, 2018, 09:37:13 AM
Have you looked at Pullman, WA and Moscow, ID? University towns 8 miles apart. Moscow is in the bluest county in ID. Combined population is 60k+. Clarkston, WA and Lewiston, ID are 30 miles to the south with a combined population around 60k.

Palouse hills are a beautiful area, and mountains and rivers are very close. A couple hrs SW to the Blue Mountains in WA and OR. A couple hrs south to Hells canyon along ID/OR border. East and SE to the Clearwater River area and northern Bitterroots. 
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: LostGirl on February 27, 2018, 10:26:46 AM
Love this thread! Seems like my family isn't the only ones with Bend on the list.  We are definitely more than 1-2 years out from leaving the Bay but this is good information.

Not to hijack FINate's thread too much but we are interested in Spanish immersion K-5/8 schools. Do any of the noted communities offer that?  I think I saw that Bellingham had one.  I guess that plays a lot into the lack of diversity comments. 
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: JLE1990 on February 27, 2018, 11:57:43 AM
Hi I just wanted throw in my two cents as someone who lives in the valley along with Bracken_Joy.

I would agree on the "fakeness" of Bend. It seems like the current city was built by very wealthy people who love to live like they are poor dirtbags in VWs and Subarus. So you have a town where everyone loves to "opt outside" and pretend like they are outdoor lovers. When new people move there, they buy into this mentality and so it continues the illusion. It has become a measure of social status to be "outdoorsy." The people there drive around in brand new subarus(sooo many Subarus), wearing $300 Arctix jackets, who go on a nature walk and then go home to their million dollar homes built to look like a mountain cabin. Like any sub-culture from rap to country music: the mountain climbing, woods loving, nature living, stoic outdoorsman has been co-opted by wealthy people who want to identify that way. An easy Californian comparison(I was homeschooled in Norcal by Tahoe which has the same issue) is the guy who drives an extremely expensive sports car so that people think he is successful, but he barely makes the payments and lives paycheck to paycheck.
Bend is the opposite and the result of thousands of said wealthy people collectively playing the character of outdoorswo/men. It's like someone setup an entire town, complete with actors, to lure unsuspecting tourists into spending insane prices on literally everything. Even the Safeway there is built like an idealized mountain abode complete with a wood panel finish, instead of the lowly grocery store we're used to that the smells like recycled beer bottles.

A couple of things to note is that I love Bend and the last part of my degree is only offered there. But it's expensive and if you are looking to homeschool your kids there are better areas. I would throw my hat in for Hood River. You are close to Mt. Hood with its 3 ski resorts (If you think Mt. Bachelor is cheap, try the Mt. Hood Fusion Pass, $550 for two ski resorts, one of which is the largest night ski resort in the U.S., and 3 days at 18+ other resorts on the west coast.), only an hour or so from Portland and not as much rain as the valley.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: Michael in ABQ on February 27, 2018, 01:05:22 PM
I'm a former Oregonian and have a lot of family in Bellingham.

I've thought about moving back over the years but the four months of overcast and rain during the winter for anywhere west of the Cascades is definitely a downer after having lived in sunny Albuquerque for the last decade. I missed that rain at first when I went to school in Pullman, WA but now when I go back in the winter I definitely don't miss it.

I went to school in Pullman, WA and I really enjoyed that smaller town feel. I didn't have a car for most of the time I was in college but could walk most places in 15-20 minutes and the bus system was very efficient (and very full in the mornings). Snow in the winter but usually just a few inches at a time, never put on chains or studded tires and despite the fact that the whole town is built on a few hills managed to make it through a winter driving with an old Ford Escort. Summer got hot but a 100 degree day was rare. The permanent population of the city is probably only about 15-20k with another 20k students so it might be a bit too small in that respect.

Bellingham is just a hair away from being a temperate rainforest. As bad as the rain and overcast was in the Portland, OR area it's worse in Bellingham. It's also gotten a lot more expensive. A co-worker's daughter lives there and he was telling me how they were trying to buy a house near downtown and they were starting at about $375-400k for 1,200 SF houses that were 100 years old with questionable renovations (I assume craftsman style homes). For a young couple that was pretty much out of reach but obviously if you're FIRED and taking equity from a house in California housing costs are of minimal concern.

I've only been to Bend a few times. We used to have a farm near there, albeit in a far more rural area about 30-40 miles north. Pretty hot in the summer there but Bend is probably a bit cooler being at a higher elevation.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: trollwithamustache on February 27, 2018, 01:12:32 PM
People you are all missing it.

You can't pump your own gas in Oregon cities.  WTF?
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on February 27, 2018, 01:16:52 PM
Thanks everyone for all the other city recommendations. Using these to form the rough contours of a future road trip, including a foray into ID. Being FIRE means we can easily hit the road for a month when school isn't in session :)

On Subarus and million dollar houses - same in Santa Cruz. I even had a Forester for a time, don't understand the allure. Maybe it's because I'm 6'6" and those things just are not designed for people my size. Can always tell when the Banff Film Festival is in town...Subarus with roof racks up and down every street near the venue. I can live with the faux outdoorsy thing because it means less people where I'm going.

Hood River looks interesting. Small, but like I mentioned upthread, we'll probably have to compromise on some things. But why not live across the border in White Salmon, WA and save on the income taxes and shop in Hood River, like the Vancouver/Portland play?

For those who love and/or live in Bend, I hope you don't take exception to this thread or my inflammatory clickbait topic. Not trying to bash Bend, just trying to get info on the potential downsides ('cause every place has 'em) to watch out for before we get too far in along in the process.

 
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: Trifle on February 27, 2018, 01:32:23 PM
People you are all missing it.

You can't pump your own gas in Oregon cities.  WTF?

Haha -- you can't pump your own gas, but you can legally smoke pot.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: pdxvandal on February 27, 2018, 01:44:55 PM
Oregon recently passed a law where you can pump your own gas in rural towns. I think Hood River may qualify. Portland/Eugene/Salem don't. I would much prefer to pump my own gas.

To the OP, White Salmon could be an interesting play. Beautiful, better views of Mt. Hood and no income tax.

People you are all missing it.

You can't pump your own gas in Oregon cities.  WTF?
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: Scrapr on February 27, 2018, 01:46:11 PM
After buying a vacation home in Bend 13 years ago we downsized from Portland to Bend 2 years ago.

Some of the bad

Hospital system. Don't get sick! They have a stranglehold on the area. Only one hospital system. They are the most expensive system in the state. And outcomes are not that great. We have had 2 interactions and 2 difficult outcomes. They have killed a few patients. Nurses say they are overworked. We walked out of ER and drove 3 hours to Portland for care.

Weather
Last winter was a bit of an anomoly. Lots of snow collapsing buildings (flat roofs). I think I had base layer on from December to April. This am 10 degrees. South of town -9 degrees. Then in summer was the wild fires. Air quality was very very poor. As in dangerous. We installed an air filter system for Mrs Scrapr allergies. Which was just in time for the wild fires. This also affected the trails up in the high lakes area. Many areas were closed.

Construction
Trade base is way overwhelmed. Things take a long time to get built. Which leads to every pickup harry getting into business as a GC. One small townhouse project has been under construction for over a year. In Portland this would be 6-8 months. I'd be very very careful about buying a home.

Summer season
shorter than you think. Up in the high lakes is where many go to hike/kayak/camp. The road up there is closed during Winter. ODOT tries to have it open by Memorial Day. Last Winter was June 15th or so. Figure closing about Oct 15th or so. We have been snowed on in September. Even if the road is open there would still be snow on the trails.

Park & Rec
They seem to get whatever they request. They are rolling in money. While the City street fund is under funded. The Park & Rec can do silly stuff like reroute the Deshutes to make a wave machine. Silly. They are supposed to be going to the voters for another bond soon. There are lots of neighborhood parks though. Which is nice

There is a lot to like.  Our moods are really affected positively by the sun. The health care may make us move though
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: HPstache on February 27, 2018, 02:08:55 PM
Love this thread! Seems like my family isn't the only ones with Bend on the list.  We are definitely more than 1-2 years out from leaving the Bay but this is good information.

Not to hijack FINate's thread too much but we are interested in Spanish immersion K-5/8 schools. Do any of the noted communities offer that?  I think I saw that Bellingham had one.  I guess that plays a lot into the lack of diversity comments.

They do, but it's a Private Christian School, not sure if that's a problem or not.  Evergreen Christian School is the name.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: Telecaster on February 27, 2018, 02:43:21 PM
Oregon recently passed a law where you can pump your own gas in rural towns. I think Hood River may qualify. Portland/Eugene/Salem don't. I would much prefer to pump my own gas.


But you can't pump your own gas in Bend!  I was there last week (actually Redmond, I guess), and tried to pump my own before the nice young gas attendant blocked me. 
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: Undecided on February 27, 2018, 02:50:16 PM

Park & Rec
They seem to get whatever they request. They are rolling in money. While the City street fund is under funded. The Park & Rec can do silly stuff like reroute the Deshutes to make a wave machine.


The parks department is esentially a separate taxing authority, so within the existing legal structure, the parks department spending isn't really relevant to things like city roads.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: LateStarter1 on February 27, 2018, 02:52:07 PM
Well... I live and work here. Been almost 10 years now.

First and foremost.... I absolutely love living here. Everything is within reach. Coast is not far away, desert is not far, thick forests, waterfalls, surrounded by lakes, mountains, snowboarding, hiking, amazing motorcycle roads, you name it... we pretty much have it.

Touristy stuff.... Yeah. Ive either become immune to it or its just not as bad as most make it out to be... but I dont notice it super bad. I do notice the "fake" feeling some mention.

Yup its white here. There is some diversification but not a lot. I have never seen any white supremacist or racist anything here though.

I grew up in Boise area and I feel both are pretty comparable but Id pick Central Oregon every time.

Home prices and rent are pretty up there here. Redmond and some other surrounding areas are still pretty reasonable and are not far away at all.


I do have one big gripe. DO NOT TELL ANYONE YOU ARE FROM CALIFORNIA IF YOU COME HERE!  As dumb as that sounds, that is the thing I hear day to day. People here HATE Californians. I hear its the same up in Washington and Idaho though.  But its pretty annoying. They blame people from CA for everything here.

We have amazing micro breweries. Best beer. So much of it. Its great. If you dont like beer, well... meh.

Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: Jesstache on February 27, 2018, 04:33:17 PM
Bend has an elementary school, Bear Creek, which is dual immersion (Spanish).  There is also a preschool with other languages (Japanese, etc) in the northwest crossing area.

I’m not offended by the OP. I know all the downsides.  Many are extremely minor to me or maybe I’m just not as bothered by things as others are and some are positives in my eyes (like the dry/low humidity) .  I think the river wave is cool, there are dudes out there surfing ALL YEAR.  My 4 year old totally digs seeing them in the river with snow. 

On the homeschool front, a friend of my homeschools all 8 of her kids and told me about the state program that pays for all of their community college as part of the homeschooling program, which all of her kids are partaking in.  They “graduate” high school with associates segeees. 

Cool that there are so many Bend mustachians here.  It’s a great place to live cheaply, if you get housing shored up.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: spokey doke on February 28, 2018, 07:55:28 AM
Love this thread...lot's of spot on analyses.

I used to live in Bend many years ago and grew up in OR and identify as an Oregonian. I visit fairly regularly.  I love it, despite the cultural downsides.  The weather is, IMO, nearly perfect.  Mountainbiking is fantastic.  Good water to get on.  OK skiing (but nonetheless, skiing right there...N. Rockies is way better).  Fabulous food/beer/farmers market.  Proximity to the coast without the rain...  It is way up on my list of places to live...

BUT...housing prices are steep for me.  OR tax friendliness in not great.  Skiing is again not that great.  And the cultural part is a bit off-putting.  Still, I'd love to live there.

In my less productive hours of combing places to move to...Hood River/White Salmon is high up there...add in wind-sports to the mix!!!

But I am still partial to the northern rockies for the access to really big wild places and great skiing...although it often comes at the cost of culture and political tension for me.  And if you want a more liberal outdoor town here, it will often cost you to buy into living in those resort towns.

Do travel...lots of fun, and if you are cashing out a place in Santa Cruz, you can easily afford most places.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: Undecided on February 28, 2018, 11:23:34 AM

But I am still partial to the northern rockies for the access to really big wild places and great skiing...although it often comes at the cost of culture and political tension for me.  And if you want a more liberal outdoor town here, it will often cost you to buy into living in those resort towns.


Although I'd like to have my ideal skiing close at hand every winter, pure ski towns tend to suffer from their own issues (that are somewhat, but not entirely, different from the issues described here regarding Bend), and the couple of significantly larger cities that have better skiing have their own (again, different) issues. No place is perfect. Living in one of the places discussed in this thread is fortunate (from my perspective), and having the chance to freely decide which of them you prefer is really fantastic. But no place is perfect (did I say that already?).

Again, I have no interest in defending Bend, but the couple of comments that have been made about "fakeness" are interesting to me. Lots of them from visitors to Bend, and that's not my perspective---I respect that it's their view. It's a comment I think one hears about many of the classic Outside "Best Places to Live." I'm not wholly sure what it means, so I can't pretend that it's wrong. One aspect of it does bug me though, as regards outdoor sports and activities. I think there's a subtext that if one didn't decide early on to abandon other priorities to elevate outdoor pursuits above all else, if one didn't dirt bag it through one's 20s and early 30s, then the interest is somehow fake. I think that's disrespectful to the passion that many people demonstrate by maintaining an interest in and commitment to outdoor pursuits while they climb the professional ladder, raise a family, or take care of whatever else is important. I nursed a couple of pretty serious outdoors interests through lots of education and the early phase of a demanding professional career, and there were certainly times when I wished I could have done a backcountry trip or gone to a remote race, but it wasn't in the cards at work. When i had the chance to use the early phase of my career as a jumping-off point for a phase of my life where I could pursue those passions more freely, with much greater resources and prospects than I would have had if this passions had been my number one priority earlier, I did it (at some sacrifice to future professional and monetary prospects, to be sure). By that point my life was very different than the lives of my peers who had been living the dream for a dozen years (and of course I wish I could have had it all), by my outdoors interests and passions are and always have been real, and I feel like the sacrifices of those (more!) youthful years have paid off for me and my family. But they were sacrifices; I knew I was making them. I don't think that people who made the opposite choices were wrong, but I have trouble seeing how my choices make me fake.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: spokey doke on February 28, 2018, 11:31:57 AM

But I am still partial to the northern rockies for the access to really big wild places and great skiing...although it often comes at the cost of culture and political tension for me.  And if you want a more liberal outdoor town here, it will often cost you to buy into living in those resort towns.


Although I'd like to have my ideal skiing close at hand every winter, pure ski towns tend to suffer from their own issues (that are somewhat, but not entirely, different from the issued describe here regarding Bend), and the couple of significantly larger cities that have better skiing have their own (again, different) issues. No place is perfect. Living in one of the places discussed in this thread is fortunate (from my perspective), and having the chance to freely decide which of them you prefer is really fantastic. But no place is perfect (did I say that already?).

Again, I have no interest in defending Bend, but the couple of comments that have been made about "fakeness" are interesting to me. Lots of them from visitors to Bend, and that's not my perspective---I respect that it's their view. It's a comment I think one hears about many of the classic Outside[/] "Best Places to Live." I'm not wholly sure what it means, so I can't pretend that it's wrong. One aspect of it does bug me though, as regards outdoor sports and activities. I think there's a subtext that if one didn't decide early on to abandon other priorities to elevate outdoor pursuits above all else, if one didn't dirt bag it through one's 20s and early 30s, then the interest is somehow fake. I think that's disrespectful to the passion that many people demonstrate by maintaining an interest in and commitment to outdoor pursuits while they climb the professional ladder, raise a family, or take care of whatever else is important. I nursed a couple of pretty serious outdoors interests through lots of education and the early phase of a demanding professional career, and there were certainly times when I wished I could have done a backcountry trip or gone to a remote race, but it wasn't in the cards at work. When i had the chance to use the early phase of my career as a jumping-off point for a phase of my life where I could pursue those passions more freely, with much greater resources and prospects than I would have had if this passions had been my number one priority earlier, I did it (at some sacrifice to future professional and monetary prospects, to be sure). By that point my life was very different than the lives of my peers who had been living the dream for a dozen years (and of course I wish I could have had it all), by my outdoors interests and passions are and always have been real, and I feel like the sacrifices of those (more!) youthful years have paid off for me and my family. But they were sacrifices; I knew I was making them. I don't think that people who made the opposite choices were wrong, but I have trouble seeing how my choices make me fake.

Yep...good points...it's all trade-offs (choices of place to live, and other life choices), and a continuum of possibilities (rather than either "real" or "fake"). 

My response is to consider not whether the "fake" issue is fair or well founded, but the fact that it seems to be a fairly common lens that people are using.  And while you can never really escape some sort of scrutiny like that, there are places where such scrutiny, fair or not, is more prominent/palpable.  I like to avoid such places, but as I think you MAY have mentioned, no place is perfect.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on February 28, 2018, 11:44:29 AM

But I am still partial to the northern rockies for the access to really big wild places and great skiing...although it often comes at the cost of culture and political tension for me.  And if you want a more liberal outdoor town here, it will often cost you to buy into living in those resort towns.


Although I'd like to have my ideal skiing close at hand every winter, pure ski towns tend to suffer from their own issues (that are somewhat, but not entirely, different from the issued describe here regarding Bend), and the couple of significantly larger cities that have better skiing have their own (again, different) issues. No place is perfect. Living in one of the places discussed in this thread is fortunate (from my perspective), and having the chance to freely decide which of them you prefer is really fantastic. But no place is perfect (did I say that already?).

Again, I have no interest in defending Bend, but the couple of comments that have been made about "fakeness" are interesting to me. Lots of them from visitors to Bend, and that's not my perspective---I respect that it's their view. It's a comment I think one hears about many of the classic Outside[/] "Best Places to Live." I'm not wholly sure what it means, so I can't pretend that it's wrong. One aspect of it does bug me though, as regards outdoor sports and activities. I think there's a subtext that if one didn't decide early on to abandon other priorities to elevate outdoor pursuits above all else, if one didn't dirt bag it through one's 20s and early 30s, then the interest is somehow fake. I think that's disrespectful to the passion that many people demonstrate by maintaining an interest in and commitment to outdoor pursuits while they climb the professional ladder, raise a family, or take care of whatever else is important. I nursed a couple of pretty serious outdoors interests through lots of education and the early phase of a demanding professional career, and there were certainly times when I wished I could have done a backcountry trip or gone to a remote race, but it wasn't in the cards at work. When i had the chance to use the early phase of my career as a jumping-off point for a phase of my life where I could pursue those passions more freely, with much greater resources and prospects than I would have had if this passions had been my number one priority earlier, I did it (at some sacrifice to future professional and monetary prospects, to be sure). By that point my life was very different than the lives of my peers who had been living the dream for a dozen years (and of course I wish I could have had it all), by my outdoors interests and passions are and always have been real, and I feel like the sacrifices of those (more!) youthful years have paid off for me and my family. But they were sacrifices; I knew I was making them. I don't think that people who made the opposite choices were wrong, but I have trouble seeing how my choices make me fake.

Yep...good points...it's all trade-offs (choices of place to live, and life choices).

My response is to consider not whether the "fake" issue is fair or well founded, but the fact that it seems to be a fairly common lens that people are using.  And while you can never really escape some sort of scrutiny like that, there are places where such scrutiny, fair or not, is more prominent/palpable.  I like to avoid such places, but as I think you MAY have mentioned, no place is perfect.

+1 to both quoted. @Undecided your journey sounds very similar to mine. I love the outdoors, but decided to focus on education and career early on. Started working in tech at 19, then added FT school (Comp. Sci.), climbed corp ladder then added grad school - two masters degrees while working. After that, kids...I love them to death, but wow does it ever put a damper on anything but the most basic of outdoor pursuits. The kids are just now starting to get the age where we can do more with them, and by the time we relocate we should be full steam ahead getting them into the outdoor life. So yeah, I feel like the sacrifices of my 20s and 30s are now paying dividends.

But, to be fair to those commenting on "fakeness" it's not clear if they're suggesting the people themselves are fake. Some may be, but for others it could have to do with how fast the city has grown and changed, which can make things feel forced rather than "organic."
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on February 28, 2018, 12:18:58 PM
Regarding fakeness: Largely the impression I get here is similar to an area in Silicon Valley called Santana Row. A master planned "upscale" community with a faux European design motif, and a gathering place for the nouveau riche and brogrammers. It feels fake to me, not my favorite place but can appreciate what it has to offer in small doses. If nothing else, it's a fascinating place to people watch.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FireHiker on February 28, 2018, 12:38:30 PM
After that, kids...I love them to death, but wow does it ever put a damper on anything but the most basic of outdoor pursuits. The kids are just now starting to get the age where we can do more with them, and by the time we relocate we should be full steam ahead getting them into the outdoor life.

I felt the same way as this with my kids, and then I did a google search on backpacking with kids. I came across a family who took their kids, at ages 2, 4, 6, and 8, to backpack the entire Wonderland Trail. While I'm not THAT ambitious with my kids (yet), we have found that they are capable of a lot more than we previously thought. The youngest is 6 now, and we have her skiing blue runs, hiking several miles, backpacking overnight carrying her own pack (started backpacking with them when she was 3.5 years old; we did carry most of her stuff then, but she hiked 6 miles the first day, no trouble), etc. I'm excited to finally be to the point where we can take them to do fun things with us outdoors without it being an absolute chore but we sure have worked up to it. We do have to adapt here and there, but it's well worth it. My oldest goes to college in fall 2019 so we'll be doing a LOT of outdoor adventures for a few years when our cash flow is substantially reduced. Thank goodness for the Sierras when that time comes!
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: iluvzbeach on March 01, 2018, 06:36:10 PM
When you’re checking out Ashland/Medford, swing by Jacksonville. Super-quaint town, with lots to do in and around town, including the Britt Music Festival each summer. We stopped in for the first time in 2011 and decided we just had to make it home.

Thanks for the tip! Very interesting. I've heard (and also mentioned on this thread) that Bend has summer wildfires, and I think Ashland/Medford had a bad fire season last summer. What's your view on it?

We were affected by the smoke, poor air quality, for about 3-4 weeks in August, but we were not plagued with fires in and around town. It can get warm in the summer, but doesn’t hit 100 more than a handful of times, and it’s a dry heat so very comfortable. I read your checklist of wants and stand by my comment that Jacksonville is worth a look. It pretty much checks all your boxes.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on March 01, 2018, 11:43:50 PM
When you’re checking out Ashland/Medford, swing by Jacksonville. Super-quaint town, with lots to do in and around town, including the Britt Music Festival each summer. We stopped in for the first time in 2011 and decided we just had to make it home.

Thanks for the tip! Very interesting. I've heard (and also mentioned on this thread) that Bend has summer wildfires, and I think Ashland/Medford had a bad fire season last summer. What's your view on it?

We were affected by the smoke, poor air quality, for about 3-4 weeks in August, but we were not plagued with fires in and around town. It can get warm in the summer, but doesn’t hit 100 more than a handful of times, and it’s a dry heat so very comfortable. I read your checklist of wants and stand by my comment that Jacksonville is worth a look. It pretty much checks all your boxes.

Thanks for the info. Jacksonville (and surrounding area) is on our radar. Plan on checking it out.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: mm1970 on March 02, 2018, 04:27:42 PM
GLADLY ;) So, I have spent a ton of time over there in my life, although I'm from the Valley over the mountains. Recently, some family has moved over there, so the past couple years I've been spending even more times over in that area. Also, I worked on a ranch near then as a teen, so I've logged a fair amount of Bend time.

My complaints:
1. This is my main one and is going to be really hard to verbalize. The culture there feels... fake. Like it's a facade, that doesn't actually permeate into people's lives. It comes across cute when you visit, but the day to day life doesn't actually have a city culture like you would expect. It's a cute downtown, but the people that live there don't walk it. There are cute brew pubs, but they aren't actually that good compared to the rest of the PNW, and have very few locals. Everything closes early, people smile but aren't warm, and there isn't the sort of community/cohesive culture that visiting would lead you to believe. There just... isn't the community involvement, spirit, and distinct identity you would expect from that much local business.
2. Tourists. Everywhere. Enough said there I think. But the flip side of this... the locals might seem friendly, but a lot of them resent visitors. They know they rely on their money, and they don't like it. I don't know if this translates to permanent Californian transplants, but it's a time honored tradition elsewhere in Oregon to actively and legitimately dislike Californians and blame them for not being able to afford the life you want. So I would just... wonder, how that would turn out culturally. That said, I think a lot of people do move to Bend from elsewhere, as opposed to being natives. More like Portland in that respect, rather than Salem/Eugene/Ashland/Medford.

3. The urban/rural divide. This characterizes all of Oregon, but Bend really embodies it. Oregon votes blue, yes. But that's because we have dots of bright blue, swimming in a sparsely populated sea of red. This leads to HUGE culture clashes, and this is especially true in Bend. The neighborhood you pick matters. Whether you drive a truck or a Leaf is a MAJOR political statement, and will influence who associates with you. It's way more conservative than the other major cities in Oregon, but a lot of the political decision makers are progressives... leads to a culture clash.
4. The winter is dry as fuckballs. Buy a humidifier, and lotion, and still expect to have bloody noses and cracked knuckles.
5. Wild fire. Blizzards. Lots of natural bullshit that results in you hiking/biking/kayaking/snowboarding less than you actually expect. Also, the mountain is fuck all spendy, so if you like snow sports, I hope you have major cash to throw at it.
6. More on the climate. The numbers *can* be misleading. Snowfall may not *seem* that high, but it stays on the ground, so snow ACCUMULATION is way higher than most people expect.
7. Gardening prospects are shit. The top soil is shit. No water, too much sun burn, too short a season. You really *need* a green house to grow anything.

So. All that being said. I actually love that area. It's beautiful. It's an amazing place. But it's not the shining gem of perfection a lot of people assume =)
You could have described Santa Barbara!
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: tungsten on March 02, 2018, 06:44:57 PM
I have a lot of very close friends in Bend who are the typical outdoorsy type.  I love them, but after spending some time up there, I too, felt that the culture was pretty superficial.  The first thing I noticed, coming from Oakland, Ca was that there were almost no people of color.  It's hard to describe how strange and uncomfortable this made me feel, and I'm white.  I mentioned this to my friend Alan who lives there (brown guy) and he told me to count the number of non-white folks I saw during the week I was there. That number was 5, and there were crowds of people out over the July 4 holiday.  Oakland has it's major problems and inequities, but I realized that art culture and diversity are things that I always very much want to be close to and support.

As far as I could tell, there's no culture of pushing social or cultural boundaries, edgy art or intellectual pursuits..
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: Mele on March 03, 2018, 07:35:32 AM
I'm a Boise area Mustachian and think that it might fit you well.  You can be a politically moderate hunter type in Boise without getting scolded.  If a church community is important to you, you will find Boise Vineyard Fellowship to be a real treasure. 

https://vineyardboise.org/

Tons of social justice ministry opportunities (garden, food pantry, feeding homeless, rebuilding Puerto Rico, drilling water well), a real focus on authenticity, not "playing church".  Check out some archived messages, catch the Livestream tomorrow.

Idaho in general is mega-red, but the Boise area is more geared toward moderates.  Hiking, biking, skiing, camping, all right there, with of course a few hour drive to beautiful getaways in the steeper mountains.  Spend the summers floating the river right through town.  It's our favorite thing.

I'm originally from Oregon, and we vacation in Bend from time to time, but for us, it's a bit much.  Feels like everyone is trying too hard to be in an REI ad.

Downfalls:  hot summers.  But, some people love that we have 4 distinct seasons.  But the summers are pretty hot. Great for gardening!
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on March 03, 2018, 10:59:18 AM
I have a lot of very close friends in Bend who are the typical outdoorsy type.  I love them, but after spending some time up there, I too, felt that the culture was pretty superficial.  The first thing I noticed, coming from Oakland, Ca was that there were almost no people of color.  It's hard to describe how strange and uncomfortable this made me feel, and I'm white.  I mentioned this to my friend Alan who lives there (brown guy) and he told me to count the number of non-white folks I saw during the week I was there. That number was 5, and there were crowds of people out over the July 4 holiday.  Oakland has it's major problems and inequities, but I realized that art culture and diversity are things that I always very much want to be close to and support.

As far as I could tell, there's no culture of pushing social or cultural boundaries, edgy art or intellectual pursuits..

Since whiteness has been mentioned several times now: Lack of diversity is not my ideal, but as I stated upthread I know there's no perfect location and will have to give on certain things. I'm looking for a smallish city, specifically not a suburb/bedroom community of a large job center, surrounded by abundant outdoorsy activities. For reasons I don't fully understand this seems to draw more of an affluent white population...hence the jokes about the REI crowd.  E.g. Walla Walla is more diverse, but lacking proximity to the terrain I'm looking for. Wenatchee gets closer in both areas. In the end I'm willing to live with certain tradeoffs.

RE cultural/intellectual pursuits. This is not something I have a strong need for in a city. I get my cultural fix mostly from reading: World history, economics, monetary policy, ancient near east culture, world religions, mythology, science and technology. Willing to travel for quality performing arts and museums. I grew up steeped in "culture" in Santa Cruz/Monterey and I'm kinda over what passes for edgy - a lot of shitty college art (think Portlandia Bad Art Good Walls (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3k8qWTn4Rg)) and wealthy hobby artists. It's not all bad, there are some real gems but for the most part I'd rather travel a few hours to the nearest big city for a few days of museums and galleries. That, and occasional international travel. So in a culture vs. outdoorsy tradeoff I choose the latter because I mountain bike/hike/hunt/fish/etc. multiple times per week whereas the arts are a several times a year thing.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on March 03, 2018, 11:13:20 AM
I haven't read all the responses yet but if you are looking for a ski town Park City, Utah is pretty nice and the climate, while dry, doesn't seem as dry as Bend or as hot in.summer. it's expensive but cheaper than coastal Cali and you could like in SLC or any of the near by towns and be very close to all the big ski mountains and outdoor rec but not as isolated as Bend.

Other areas I liked were Whitefish, Montana (close to Missoula), Sand Point and Coure Du Alene, Idaho (Boise is nice but super hot and dry) and Bellingham (favorite place but very wet and gloomy). Tahoe is also on my short list of places to move to. Also a bit isolated but close to Reno and Sac but also dry and expensive. Bend is nice and there's tons of outdoor stuff to do but I think there are better places unless you like the very dry cold/hot and windy high desert type of climate.

ETA I saw some people mention that you'll run into big crowds in places like rivers, skiing, hiking, etc but if you will be RE you'll never have to worry about that again as you can go mid week and generally have even the most crowded places on weekends to yourself. Bliss!

Thread I start awhile ago with lots of good responses. My posts were deleted for privacy reasons so its A little disjointed. Plus I was looking specifically a ski town (as in walk to town and lifts) rather than a city close by.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/best-(and-cheapest)-mountainski-towns-to-move-to-after-fire/msg1103353/#msg1103353

I would LOVE Park City and drool over it, but DW is not into ID or UT. Hope to convince her otherwise someday but know better than to push it :) Would also put us further away from family that are already in PNW or will be soon.

Don't mind crowds on weekends or in the city. Just want to be able to get away from it, either by driving a bit or timing outings. My issue with Santa Cruz is that we are being enveloped by Silicon Valley. Destinations are super crowded weekends/holidays AND midweek has terrible commute traffic so we're starting to feel trapped in an area with a shrinking radius.

Thanks for the link to the thread. Eagerly digesting it.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: Laserjet3051 on March 03, 2018, 11:30:46 AM
Lot of info already on Bend here in this thread. I dont live there, but have visited and was awestruck as to how great of a place Bend would/could be to live. Aside from dire economic concerns regarding Bend, I would concur that it is dry as FUCK there. This would be a problem for me, especially since a mere 1 hr West of Bend, humidity levels are much friendlier, giving rise to an uber-verdant environment.

Oh, and concur on the "diversity" thing. Which may or may not be an issue for you.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on March 03, 2018, 11:32:35 AM
I'm a Boise area Mustachian and think that it might fit you well.  You can be a politically moderate hunter type in Boise without getting scolded.  If a church community is important to you, you will find Boise Vineyard Fellowship to be a real treasure. 

https://vineyardboise.org/

Tons of social justice ministry opportunities (garden, food pantry, feeding homeless, rebuilding Puerto Rico, drilling water well), a real focus on authenticity, not "playing church".  Check out some archived messages, catch the Livestream tomorrow.

Idaho in general is mega-red, but the Boise area is more geared toward moderates.  Hiking, biking, skiing, camping, all right there, with of course a few hour drive to beautiful getaways in the steeper mountains.  Spend the summers floating the river right through town.  It's our favorite thing.

I'm originally from Oregon, and we vacation in Bend from time to time, but for us, it's a bit much.  Feels like everyone is trying too hard to be in an REI ad.

Downfalls:  hot summers.  But, some people love that we have 4 distinct seasons.  But the summers are pretty hot. Great for gardening!

Thanks for the info. Planning a stop in Boise to get a feel for it. Hot summers are fine as long as it cools off overnight, one of the reasons we like a dry climate.

The REI vibe just doesn't bother us. We currently live in an area where people try very hard to embody a surfer/skater lifestyle, lots of "kooks." Grew up near here yet don't understand it or speak the lingo, find it more curious than anything. Life's too short to worry about what image other people are trying to project.

Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: pecunia on March 03, 2018, 01:08:40 PM
This is an interesting post.  I used to live in the Tri-Cities and used to go down into Oregon quite a lot.  Being from a small town, I would love it.

That being said,.........The area i come from has similarities to rural Oregon.  The climate is worse and the hills are smaller, but it has a lot of outdoor possibilities.  People would move there once in a bit from urban areas.  Many couldn't adapt.  They found they missed the faster pace of the big cities.  They missed the ready availability of multiple restaurants and shops.  It just wasn't right for them.  It didn't match their dream.

I have moved back to Midwest.  I find I miss odd little things about the Pacific Northwest.  Today, I was thinking about Les Schwab tires and free beef.

It probably was mentioned.  No sales tax in Ore.  No income tax in Wash.  I lived in Wash.  I had it very good.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: Cressida on March 03, 2018, 01:20:40 PM
Unfortunately I don't have anything to add to this thread, but it's an interesting conversation and I'd like to hear the rest. Oregon is under consideration for us too.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: Penn42 on March 03, 2018, 03:11:43 PM
Haven't read the whole thread, but I don't think I'll be adding much that hasn't already been said.  But since I was born and raised in Bend (haven't lived there since 2010) I figured I'd throw my hat in the ring.

Bend more than doubled in size in the two decades between my birth and departure.  That is to say: Bend is trendy AF right now.  I think that's where the majority of the "fake" feeling comes from.  Everybody and their mother wants a piece of the hip Bend experience complete with overpriced breweries/restaurants and ubiquitous local events.  I think it became that way because of the overwhelming number of world-class outdoor activities within a stones throw of town. 

And the climate is perfect IMO.  However, it is a short summer.  Weather will go warm around May-ish, turn cold in September, then stay that way til May.  Very little precipitation.  3 inches of rain a year is a lot.  Snow is another story, but the ground doesn't stay covered for the season.

There's little bad to say about it apart from the trendiness and year round tourism.  And despite the massive amount of change that's occurred since I left 8 years ago I'd like to get back someday.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: Cressida on March 03, 2018, 10:25:04 PM
Unfortunately I don't have anything to add to this thread, but it's an interesting conversation and I'd like to hear the rest. Oregon is under consideration for us too.

Never mind, maybe I do have something to add. Wikipedia says that Bend typically has a hard frost in every month, even July and August. That seems unbelievable, but if it's true, that would be enough to convince me that Bend, OR sucks.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: Trifle on March 04, 2018, 01:45:41 AM
Unfortunately I don't have anything to add to this thread, but it's an interesting conversation and I'd like to hear the rest. Oregon is under consideration for us too.

Never mind, maybe I do have something to add. Wikipedia says that Bend typically has a hard frost in every month, even July and August. That seems unbelievable, but if it's true, that would be enough to convince me that Bend, OR sucks.

Yeah, the climate in Bend sucks if you want to do any kind of gardening.  We looked hard at moving to Oregon a few years ago, and Bend did not make our short list for that very reason. 
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: Bracken_Joy on March 04, 2018, 07:34:30 AM
Unfortunately I don't have anything to add to this thread, but it's an interesting conversation and I'd like to hear the rest. Oregon is under consideration for us too.

Never mind, maybe I do have something to add. Wikipedia says that Bend typically has a hard frost in every month, even July and August. That seems unbelievable, but if it's true, that would be enough to convince me that Bend, OR sucks.

I would believe that, that tallies with my experiences. You absolutely need a green house to do any gardening. If it isn't the cold, it's the sunburn on the plants. If it isn't the sunburn, it's the deer. If not the deer, then never enough water. Etc.

Versus the valley, where I planted a clipping of someone else's oregano over a year ago and it hasn't stopped producing, even over the winter. Majorly different climates.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: Penn42 on March 04, 2018, 07:39:59 AM
Unfortunately I don't have anything to add to this thread, but it's an interesting conversation and I'd like to hear the rest. Oregon is under consideration for us too.

Never mind, maybe I do have something to add. Wikipedia says that Bend typically has a hard frost in every month, even July and August. That seems unbelievable, but if it's true, that would be enough to convince me that Bend, OR sucks.
.

Yeah you can't garden without a green house.  It's just not possible.  IIRC the only month on record without an instance if significant snowfall is August.  A few years ago (2011 maybe)I went and visited the folks on the fourth of July weekend.  There was a few inches on the ground that morning.  It was all melted off by noon and the 4th s nice and toasty warm, but it definitely snowed that night.

It's the high dessert.  80-40 swings or more is just how it do.  That's one of my least favorite parts about where I live now, actually. Why does it stay warm at night?  Nighttime is cold time!
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on March 04, 2018, 03:10:31 PM
I spend a lot of time above tree line in the Sierras, very familiar with low humidity, cold nights and warm days. Normal to wake up to frost in July and then hit 90 during the day on sun baked leeward slopes. Family also had a second home in South Lake Tahoe where we spent a good chunk of time, which is also a low humidity climate. We kind of like the dryness, makes the hot/cold more comfortable IMO. We acclimated well to +110F in the desert southwest last summer, but when we got back wow did 90F in Santa Cruz feel uncomfortable. And there's something unusually cold about 40F nights along the coast - the moisture in the air just sucks the heat out. Whereas the cold didn't bother us living in Bavaria during winter, though the humid summer wasn't our favorite (but really not a big deal). But yeah, low humidity may be an issue for long term living, so something to consider.

Big Bear Lake is a great area. We were in that area last summer, just up the hill in one of the primitive campsites in Holcomb Valley. Got chased out by the Holcomb Fire (https://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident/5256/), very exciting. I wouldn't rule the area out, certainly would make a good base for excursions into the southwest and reasonable access to the Eastern Sierras. But the proximity to the LA basin and (I hope this doesn't sound too nitpicky) the smallness of the surrounding wilderness/forests make it less attractive to me.

RE gardening: I do like to grow small vegetable and herb gardens. The herbs would mostly be fine with some overwintering prep. Agree, would need a greenhouse for most other things. Not optimal, but also not a deal breaker.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on May 04, 2018, 11:05:50 AM
Update: Recently drove up I-5 to visit family in Tacoma. Did the trip in two days with a stop at about the mid-point in the Rouge River Valley area.

Had limited time to explore, but from what we saw we enjoyed the Medford/Central Point/Jacksonville area. Jacksonville is quaint and attractive but smaller than we're looking for - a good place to visit, but looking for a larger metro that's bikeable/walkable. I think Medford would check this box and would be a reasonable fit for us.

One negative about Medford I noticed, and I realize this is purely anecdotal and not sure how representative: Witnessed several groups of young, able-bodied homeless men roaming about. To be clear I'm not anti-homeless or afraid of homeless, it's just that these guys had a look and behavior about them that I'm all too familiar with. A sense that they are actively looking for their next crime of opportunity - watching, scoping things out, and if you leave your bike or any property unattended for even a moment it's gone. It's sad, and I know it's driven by a sickness (addiction), but kinda over living in an area that should be bikeable yet in practice cannot because of rampant theft.  I could be projecting Santa Cruz's problems onto Medford, but that was the sense I got. Anyone local to the area have any info on if this is actually a problem or to what extent? Wonder if this is a common problem along the most of the I-5 corridor.

The Willamette Valley is stunning, though we didn't have time to explore the cities in the area. Will now be doing more research on this area.

One final note: Was impressed with Tacoma. The climate is too gloomy for us, but the city is very livable and affordable. Great downtown, nice parks. High crime / iffy south of about 6th Ave, but very pleasant elsewhere. The streets going downhill to the Sound look and feel similar to San Francisco. For those who don't mind (or enjoy) the climate it would be a great place.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: Bracken_Joy on May 04, 2018, 11:16:18 AM
Update: Recently drove up I-5 to visit family in Tacoma. Did the trip in two days with a stop at about the mid-point in the Rouge River Valley area.

Had limited time to explore, but from what we saw we enjoyed the Medford/Central Point/Jacksonville area. Jacksonville is quaint and attractive but smaller than we're looking for - a good place to visit, but looking for a larger metro that's bikeable/walkable. I think Medford would check this box and would be a reasonable fit for us.

One negative about Medford I noticed, and I realize this is purely anecdotal and not sure how representative: Witnessed several groups of young, able-bodied homeless men roaming about. To be clear I'm not anti-homeless or afraid of homeless, it's just that these guys had a look and behavior about them that I'm all too familiar with. A sense that they are actively looking for their next crime of opportunity - watching, scoping things out, and if you leave your bike or any property unattended for even a moment it's gone. It's sad, and I know it's driven by a sickness (addiction), but kinda over living in an area that should be bikeable yet in practice cannot because of rampant theft.  I could be projecting Santa Cruz's problems onto Medford, but that was the sense I got. Anyone local to the area have any info on if this is actually a problem or to what extent? Wonder if this is a common problem along the most of the I-5 corridor.

The Willamette Valley is stunning, though we didn't have time to explore the cities in the area. Will now be doing more research on this area.

One final note: Was impressed with Tacoma. The climate is too gloomy for us, but the city is very livable and affordable. Great downtown, nice parks. High crime / iffy south of about 6th Ave, but very pleasant elsewhere. The streets going downhill to the Sound look and feel similar to San Francisco. For those who don't mind (or enjoy) the climate it would be a great place.

Well... Oregonians often call it Methford =( Honestly it's kinda mean, cuz pretty much that same level of problem also exists in Eugene, Salem, and Gresham... and any rural areas too, frankly. But yeah, Medford in particular gets a really bad rap for drug use and drug addiction related crimes like property theft.

Here's crime rates by city in Oregon. http://www.oregonlive.com/trending/2017/07/fbis_20_most_dangerous_cities.html (http://www.oregonlive.com/trending/2017/07/fbis_20_most_dangerous_cities.html) Medford is #1. Which, I mean, note that this is relative to other Oregon cities. All and all there really aren't any *dangerous* places to live here. But there is definitely some ever present challenges related to homelessness, drug use, and mental illness (and, of course, the interplay that occurs between the three). Another article on it: http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2017/07/meth_heroin_pose_greatest_drug.html (http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2017/07/meth_heroin_pose_greatest_drug.html)

Maybe I'm jaded being from Oregon, but it seems like this is just a problem in the US anywhere right now. If anyone knows of a state that *isn't* reeling from meth and heroin issues, I'd be all ears to hear about it.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: koshtra on May 04, 2018, 11:59:05 AM
Rural Oregon was in already bad shape because of the collapse of an unsustainable timber industry, when the 2008 financial meltdown dealt them another blow. The relative prosperity of Multnomah County (Portland and its suburbs) has masked statistically just how hard it's been -- especially down south in the Rogue Valley & environs. Hard times and a sense of going downhill. Times are better now but I don't think people are feeling like there's really much of an economic path forward for them.

There' a lot of homelessness everywhere in Oregon, now. Portland has tents and tarps all over the place. Washington State is considerably more prosperous -- you'll notice as soon as you cross the border that the roads are better and pretty much everything looks better-cared-for.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on May 04, 2018, 01:31:06 PM
Update: Recently drove up I-5 to visit family in Tacoma. Did the trip in two days with a stop at about the mid-point in the Rouge River Valley area.

Had limited time to explore, but from what we saw we enjoyed the Medford/Central Point/Jacksonville area. Jacksonville is quaint and attractive but smaller than we're looking for - a good place to visit, but looking for a larger metro that's bikeable/walkable. I think Medford would check this box and would be a reasonable fit for us.

One negative about Medford I noticed, and I realize this is purely anecdotal and not sure how representative: Witnessed several groups of young, able-bodied homeless men roaming about. To be clear I'm not anti-homeless or afraid of homeless, it's just that these guys had a look and behavior about them that I'm all too familiar with. A sense that they are actively looking for their next crime of opportunity - watching, scoping things out, and if you leave your bike or any property unattended for even a moment it's gone. It's sad, and I know it's driven by a sickness (addiction), but kinda over living in an area that should be bikeable yet in practice cannot because of rampant theft.  I could be projecting Santa Cruz's problems onto Medford, but that was the sense I got. Anyone local to the area have any info on if this is actually a problem or to what extent? Wonder if this is a common problem along the most of the I-5 corridor.

The Willamette Valley is stunning, though we didn't have time to explore the cities in the area. Will now be doing more research on this area.

One final note: Was impressed with Tacoma. The climate is too gloomy for us, but the city is very livable and affordable. Great downtown, nice parks. High crime / iffy south of about 6th Ave, but very pleasant elsewhere. The streets going downhill to the Sound look and feel similar to San Francisco. For those who don't mind (or enjoy) the climate it would be a great place.

Well... Oregonians often call it Methford =( Honestly it's kinda mean, cuz pretty much that same level of problem also exists in Eugene, Salem, and Gresham... and any rural areas too, frankly. But yeah, Medford in particular gets a really bad rap for drug use and drug addiction related crimes like property theft.

Here's crime rates by city in Oregon. http://www.oregonlive.com/trending/2017/07/fbis_20_most_dangerous_cities.html (http://www.oregonlive.com/trending/2017/07/fbis_20_most_dangerous_cities.html) Medford is #1. Which, I mean, note that this is relative to other Oregon cities. All and all there really aren't any *dangerous* places to live here. But there is definitely some ever present challenges related to homelessness, drug use, and mental illness (and, of course, the interplay that occurs between the three). Another article on it: http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2017/07/meth_heroin_pose_greatest_drug.html (http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2017/07/meth_heroin_pose_greatest_drug.html)

Maybe I'm jaded being from Oregon, but it seems like this is just a problem in the US anywhere right now. If anyone knows of a state that *isn't* reeling from meth and heroin issues, I'd be all ears to hear about it.

Thanks for the links. Esp. liked the crime rankings w/ map. I saw one person use the 'Methford' moniker on a local news website and wondered how widely used it was.

Agree that addiction is a blight all across the US and expect to deal with it wherever we end up. However, there's a big difference in how cities and states respond to it. When a city (and/or state) is soft on crime, either because the PD is stretched too thin or because this is what the citizens support, then word gets out that it's favorable for property crimes and other activities that support addition. Not talking about a "war on drugs" but also not rolling out the red carpet. As @lhamo points out, some places have figured out how to manage the problem instead of just giving up (http://www.registerguard.com/rg/news/local/36509124-75/eugene-police-disregarded-about-one-third-of-daily-service-calls-in-2017.html.csp).
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on May 04, 2018, 01:38:59 PM
Rural Oregon was in already bad shape because of the collapse of an unsustainable timber industry, when the 2008 financial meltdown dealt them another blow. The relative prosperity of Multnomah County (Portland and its suburbs) has masked statistically just how hard it's been -- especially down south in the Rogue Valley & environs. Hard times and a sense of going downhill. Times are better now but I don't think people are feeling like there's really much of an economic path forward for them.

There' a lot of homelessness everywhere in Oregon, now. Portland has tents and tarps all over the place. Washington State is considerably more prosperous -- you'll notice as soon as you cross the border that the roads are better and pretty much everything looks better-cared-for.

Thanks for the background info, makes sense. FWIW, rural California has the same issues. Outside of the SF Bay Area and LA/SD areas much of the state is still reeling from the financial crisis. Due to onerous regulations and the march to $15 min wage there's an exodus of non-tech industries.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: Bracken_Joy on May 04, 2018, 01:41:21 PM
Part of the problem has been that Oregon (Eugene and Portland in particular) were a civil services bastion through the 70's. When other places were criminalizing homelessness and simultaneously doing mass de-institutionalizing of people, we offered services.... and so people came from other states, since we were one of the only ones offering services. This issue persists now (aided by other states literally bussing people to Oregon as their "services" they offer). We also have a climate that supports homelessness year round except for a very few days here and there.

Yep. I will not deny there are problems here. Oregon doesn't exactly have a massive history of prosperity. (Literally, I still have relatives who complain that mismanagement of the BEAVER PELT TRADE led to our family's financial woes. I so deeply wish that were a joke. Don't get me started on people bitching about the timber industry dying). Maybe it's been political mismanagement. Maybe it's been unsustainable economic bases that always lead to poor rural towns emptying out. Either way, it definitely set the stage for a lot of drug problems taking hold here, and a large inadequately addresses problem with homelessness.

All that being said, it's still a beautiful place =) Overall, I'm glad I live here.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: MarciaB on May 04, 2018, 04:12:06 PM
I have an aversion to both Santa Cruz and Bend for many of the reasons outlined above!

For example, Californian's in Santa Cruz might forget that California has lots of mountain passes that can be problematic in winter!  ;) 

As a Californian it's good to be reminded that mountain passes in winter can be problematic, so thanks for that.

Have you thought about Redmond? (Oregon)


I had a college friend that moved to Bend and started a business and family and bought a home.  They seem to love it there.

I spent 2 weeks in McCall, Idaho and thought it was great.  If I was looking at Idaho I would consider it. But mind you, that was 20 years ago.

What about Ashland, Oregon?  I spent a summer outside of town there.  Hip, smallish college town.  The Shakespeare plays bring in lots of culture and out-of-town money.  Skiing nearby.

Ashland/Medford/Grants Pass area is on the shortlist, plan on checking it out. Comparable cost of living, climate is a bit more mild. And lots of great mountain biking, though that's probably true of most small cities in OR. IMO, has more of a Northern California look to it - not a bad thing necessarily, just different.

EDIT: And yes, this lowlander central coast Californian is an ass for assuming that Californians elsewhere in the state don't deal with winter conditions :)
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on May 04, 2018, 06:07:57 PM
We also have a climate that supports homelessness year round except for a very few days here and there.

I feel guilty for thinking this way, but admit that I consider cold winters a positive for this reason. I don't want people to freeze to death, but at the same time I don't like that my city is a year round campground / open air drug bazaar and there is almost zero incentive to get off the streets and into a functional living situation. So people come from all over to "paradise" and kill themselves with drugs while stealing from those trying to eek out a living.

Literally, I still have relatives who complain that mismanagement of the BEAVER PELT TRADE led to our family's financial woes. I so deeply wish that were a joke. Don't get me started on people bitching about the timber industry dying.

Sad, and ridiculous. Was the beaver pelt trade a thing in living memory? Always thought it was more of a 19th century thing.

Assume the timber industry isn't totally dead though probably a fraction of its peak from the "glory days" which is usually around the 1950s or 60s for old white people. Hopefully they are doing some selective harvesting or some other sustainable method to keep fuel loads down.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on May 05, 2018, 11:50:04 PM
This conversation got me interested in relative crime rates across several cities. Would love a site for plotting these on the same graph, but alas all I can find are graphs for single cities:

https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/ca/santa-cruz/crime
https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/or/eugene/crime
https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/or/medford/crime
https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/or/bend/crime

Medfort slightly edges out Santa Cruz for worse property crime, with about 1:14 odds of becoming a victim vs 1:16. Santa Cruz has worse violent crime. This is probably a deal breaker. Yes, I'm sure the outlying areas/towns are nicer, but looking for a decent size city center w/o an outsized crime issue.

Was surprised by Eugene because it has a reputation for the same problems, yet very w.r.t. violent crime and significantly lower property crime as compared to Medford and Santa Cruz, though still somewhat elevated. Bend and Wenatchee (https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/wa/wenatchee/crime) are both compare favorably on this metric.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: Bracken_Joy on May 06, 2018, 08:33:11 AM
This conversation got me interested in relative crime rates across several cities. Would love a site for plotting these on the same graph, but alas all I can find are graphs for single cities:

https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/ca/santa-cruz/crime
https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/or/eugene/crime
https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/or/medford/crime
https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/or/bend/crime

Medfort slightly edges out Santa Cruz for worse property crime, with about 1:14 odds of becoming a victim vs 1:16. Santa Cruz has worse violent crime. This is probably a deal breaker. Yes, I'm sure the outlying areas/towns are nicer, but looking for a decent size city center w/o an outsized crime issue.

Was surprised by Eugene because it has a reputation for the same problems, yet very w.r.t. violent crime and significantly lower property crime as compared to Medford and Santa Cruz, though still somewhat elevated. Bend and Wenatchee (https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/wa/wenatchee/crime) are both compare favorably on this metric.

Wow. Nowhere on the west coast except some very rich cities in Cali fare well on that, do they? =\ That's super depressing. And the 'safest' list is a lot of CT and UT and IL. Aka, not here.

Knew we had issues with some crimes, didn't realize it was that worse than other areas of the country! Frankly I thought we were kinda keeping pace.

Corvallis was a 17, that was the best Valley city I could find (although I just started my first coffee, so full disclosure: didn't look hard). Ashland was 10, so a little better than Salem or Eugene. Salem is tied with Eugene, which is weird to me- I've always associated Salem as having more crime that Eugene. And Eugene had *more* violent crime. Football games must contribute more to violent crime than prisons, haha.

This is kinda crazy to be honest. Upending some of my dearly held city biases ;)
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on May 06, 2018, 02:32:44 PM
Hard to argue with the data. For years Santa Cruz tried to play it up as more perception than reality... tried to blame it on a small vocal minority making a mountain out of a molehill. Than a few years ago a group of concerned citizens compiled a report on crime from FBI stats and the city leaders, from what I'm told, asked that they please bury the report, which thankfully didn't happen. Now that this stuff is so easily accessible online they're trying to spin it as driven by tourism, yet places like Manhattan NY (very touristy) are way safer.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: eostache on May 06, 2018, 08:51:01 PM
We took a road trip to Oregon in 2016. The main reason for the trip was to do the Ride The Rim ride at Crater Lake, and that was awesome. We couchsurfed in Klamath Falls for a few days and met some great people there.

We live in western Colorado and were considering maybe moving to Oregon someday and wanted to check it out. We weren't interested in western Oregon, we had heard all these great things about Bend and also planned to spend a few days there. We had maps of all the bike paths in town and along the river. We stayed one day. We hated it. The bike path system was not great (compared to the ones we have in Colorado). A lot of the bike paths were crushed gravel (the maps did not specify this), good thing we brought cross bikes and not road bikes on that trip. The urban planning seemed terrible and the traffic was insane every where. I know the Bend area has undergone rapid growth in the past decade or so.

We are both geologists and enjoyed visiting Newberry Crater but we got a bit bored looking at basalt rocks all the time. We headed east through central OR (and into sedimentary rocks) and liked that area better, it looked more like CO!

That trip cured us of thinking of moving to Bend.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: fixie on May 07, 2018, 03:11:29 PM
Happy to elaborate. Some of this may seem familiar as I've adapted some of MMMs ideas.

Size: 50-200k. Fairly large range, just not too small or too large. Doesn't have to be all in one city, e.g. could be a smaller city within a few miles of a larger city or multi-city corridor, though I prefer a compact medium size city over small towns spread out. Want reasonable amenities within a few miles: parks, library, hardware store, groceries, etc. Much fewer than 50k and IMO it gets too sparse. Much larger than 200k and it starts to feel large and sprawling.

Cost of living: Average or somewhat above is fine. Santa Cruz is over 2x the average, with housing 4.4x average :(

Distinctness: Self contained city that is not a bedroom community or suburb of a larger city. Strongly prefer being more than 2+ hours from a large metro area. I don't mind tourists, but don't want to be in an area where a neighboring large city empties into for weekend day trips. Decent downtown, doesn't need to be perfect, just good enough for occasional dates and family nights out. Would continue doing most trips by bike. One of the aspects of WA and OR I find compelling are the urban growth boundaries: Cities are for living, everything else is for agriculture and/or visiting. 

Climate: Prefer drier, colder winter (i.e. snow) over rain. Anything in summer is fine as long as it's not excessively hot (110+. Once in a while is fine, just not weeks on end).

Proximity to outdoor activities: Hiking, backpacking, camping, hunting, fishing, mountain biking, road biking...love it all and want options nearby. Was an avid skier/snowboarder in college and interested in getting back into it, but want to be within an hour. Also interested in getting back into backcountry skiing/snow camping. The winter stuff is simply too much of an ordeal for us right now at 5+ hrs each way. Variety is also important. One of my happy places is near/just above treeline - cold alpine lakes, gnarled wind blown trees, snowy peaks in summer. But also enjoy a hot day at a river or lake at lower elevations and appreciate the stark beauty the high desert.

Culture: Somewhat balanced. Not too hippy-dippy. Nothing against hippies, but interested in more than old run down victorians festooned with prayer flags as far as the eye can see (exaggerating, I know). Also not looking for Trumptown. Specifically, since I enjoy hunting there's a certain type of hunter very annoying. Probably unavoidable, but would like to minimize the loud arrogant type that brags a lot and is more interested in shooting shit and killing things than being in nature appreciating the privilege of harvesting from the land. Also prefer a local political scene that's focused on keeping things running and improvements. In other words, I'd like to pay taxes that go to making the city a great place to live: Clean parks, sewer capacity, water supply, business friendly regulations, redevelopment, urban infill, libraries. We like to read, and learn about nature, but not huge into Art or Performing Arts, so this is more of a bonus than a must have. Fine with occasional travel to a bigger metro for this. A certain amount of social cohesion and town spirit would be nice, yet realize that this can also work against us as 'outsiders' and an area with recent 'transplants' could mean people are a bit more accepting. University is a plus as long as it's not too large relative to the rest of the population.

I don't think there's any perfect utopia out there, and expect we will end up making tradeoffs. Deal breakers would be super extreme political culture (on either end), a city that doesn't invest in itself (either because citizens are anti-tax or anti-change), super extreme climate (though I don't think this is a problem anywhere in PNW), 50% or higher than average cost of living. Oh, and the church thing I mentioned upthread, though that's so personal that it's something we need to explore for ourselves.

Thanks for all the input and ideas. Looking at Ellensburg now :)

Bellingham checks most of those boxes, except for the winter rain thing.  FWIW, predictions for sea level rise and overall habitability in the PNW in general are better than most regions in the US(from a climate destabilization perspective).  Bellingham is a great little city, though there IS some enmity regarding Californication.  I didn't notice your comment on churches, though If you DO like that sort of thing there are plenty, and the town of Lynden just to the North is quite churchy.  You might like Mt. Vernon as well, just to the South of Bham.  Plenty of city deer to harvest.  I once saw one with a broken arrow sticking out of it.  The salmon are slowly going extinct, as are steelhead, sea-run cutthroat etc.  I wouldn't eat any mussels, crabs, or oysters, but that's just because I know more than the average person about local water quality.  Alpine lake fishing can still be rewarding and fun.  Always something going on in Bham, though the downtown has quite a few empty shops right now, for some reason.  Good farmer's market, Alaska ferry, some diversity, close ferries to Olympic Peninsula...  North Cascades is awesome...Pasayten Wilderness for true solo trips.  Local politics is progressive and lively, in general.
-fixie
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: PDX Citizen on May 08, 2018, 03:45:11 PM
We were pretty enamored with Bend but decided against it a few years ago for a variety of reasons. From our time there, I get the impression that there are a lot of people who retired or semi-retired with enough money, many from California, who enjoy the combination of outdoor activities, decent food and beer culture, and a dry climate. Totally understandable given the issues that you describe in Santa Cruz, which are probably common in many other places. But, you might also want to consider the likelihood that if you are moving to a place with a lot of retirees, a high quality of life, and expensive housing, then there is going to be a shortage of workers to get things done. Unless you are super self-reliant, you are going to be competing with all those other retirees for people to fix your plumbing, to maintain your roads, to feed you, to take care of you after a knee surgery, etc., etc. Mountain towns all over the west are facing these issues, and it seems like a growing retired population is just going to exacerbate them over time.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: Russ on May 08, 2018, 04:21:07 PM
Bend doesn't suck too much right now
Californians moving to Bend are the reason it sucks a little more each day
Maybe you're different, but if you're not please stay home
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: HeadedWest2029 on May 09, 2018, 02:42:04 PM
This may also aid you in your search

http://www.city-data.com/advanced/search.php#body?fips=0&csize=a&sc=0&sd=0&states=ALL&near=&ps=20&p=0 (http://www.city-data.com/advanced/search.php#body?fips=0&csize=a&sc=0&sd=0&states=ALL&near=&ps=20&p=0)
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: Enlightened Elizabeth on May 09, 2018, 03:11:00 PM
Have you considered Eugene? We moved from the central coast of CA about 6 years ago. We have long time friends in Bend (with similar complaints as everyone else has mentioned) and family in Santa Cruz (we visit both Bend and SC often). Eugene has a similar vibe as Santa Cruz but more culture than Bend and Eugene definitely has a soul and very strong community no matter your side of the political spectrum- in fact the sides seem to get along great (which was weird to us at first, very respectful of differences). The drawback here is you are dealing with the same welcoming of panhandlers, lots of free social services etc. which is great for homeless in need who genuinely need it but attracts transients who take advantage (like SC).

Perks of Eugene:  Close proximity to coast and mountains (we've skied Saturday and surfed Sunday many a weekend). World class Mt biking in nearby Oakridge, world class fly fishing on the Mckenzie; Wine country is gorgeous, delicious and cheaper than CA; Mild climate, if you can get out to say Arizona for 1 or 2 months in the winter, its paradise especially if you're a gardener. If not, have a wood stove or fireplace and live the Oregon life ;). Lots of industry tech growth here. Thats my two cents on Eugene, it kind of sounds like it check s some boxes on what you're seeking. Check it out on your PNW road-trip. We enjoy spending time in Bend as tourists just as much as everyone else though- it is  a fun place!

*Also someone previously mentioned bilingual k-5, many good options here (our neighborhood has japanese immersion and spanish immersion k-5).

Cheers and best of luck!
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: Cressida on May 09, 2018, 10:58:57 PM
Bellingham is a great little city, though there IS some enmity regarding Californication.  I didn't notice your comment on churches, though If you DO like that sort of thing there are plenty, and the town of Lynden just to the North is quite churchy

Can confirm. My mom grew up there. Churchy.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: SnackDog on May 10, 2018, 03:38:40 AM
You can really only answer this question by spending a *lot* of time there yourself.  What ever any random internet person hates or loves about a place may or may not apply to you.  Every place has compromises for everyone; there is no perfect place.  Be careful relocating to any place you have not already been vacationing or visiting part time for years.  It is a kind of silly American fantasy to want to choose a place on a map and move there with no firsthand knowledge. Many people leap into this and then end up regretting their choice and finding out that not only is the grass not greener, they don't know anyone in their new location and would prefer their original city, warts and all.  The Devil You Know, etc.  You seem to be running away from Santa Cruz (one of the better cities in the country overall) more than toward anywhere else.  Maybe you would enjoy life there if you just looked at it differently.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on May 12, 2018, 08:37:36 PM
Bend doesn't suck too much right now
Californians moving to Bend are the reason it sucks a little more each day
Maybe you're different, but if you're not please stay home

Hah! Well, that's funny. Many people in Santa Cruz are xenophobic and hate all the "outsiders" moving in. I often point out how unfair it would feel if the tables were turned and they relocated and were judged harshly because of nothing more than where they came from. The US has a long tradition of people moving around, blazing new trails. When did we become so unfriendly and fearful of others?
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on May 12, 2018, 08:41:29 PM
Have you considered Eugene? We moved from the central coast of CA about 6 years ago. We have long time friends in Bend (with similar complaints as everyone else has mentioned) and family in Santa Cruz (we visit both Bend and SC often). Eugene has a similar vibe as Santa Cruz but more culture than Bend and Eugene definitely has a soul and very strong community no matter your side of the political spectrum- in fact the sides seem to get along great (which was weird to us at first, very respectful of differences). The drawback here is you are dealing with the same welcoming of panhandlers, lots of free social services etc. which is great for homeless in need who genuinely need it but attracts transients who take advantage (like SC).

Perks of Eugene:  Close proximity to coast and mountains (we've skied Saturday and surfed Sunday many a weekend). World class Mt biking in nearby Oakridge, world class fly fishing on the Mckenzie; Wine country is gorgeous, delicious and cheaper than CA; Mild climate, if you can get out to say Arizona for 1 or 2 months in the winter, its paradise especially if you're a gardener. If not, have a wood stove or fireplace and live the Oregon life ;). Lots of industry tech growth here. Thats my two cents on Eugene, it kind of sounds like it check s some boxes on what you're seeking. Check it out on your PNW road-trip. We enjoy spending time in Bend as tourists just as much as everyone else though- it is  a fun place!

*Also someone previously mentioned bilingual k-5, many good options here (our neighborhood has japanese immersion and spanish immersion k-5).

Cheers and best of luck!

Eugene was on the list, then off for the reasons you list, though the recent data that shows it to be not as bad as I thought has me reconsidering it. It does seem to check all the boxes, though the concerns you list do give me pause. I don't mind services, even if they become an attraction, as long as there's a general sense of law-and-order and with some expectations/strings attached.

Thanks for chiming in!
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on May 12, 2018, 08:50:39 PM
Bellingham is a great little city, though there IS some enmity regarding Californication.  I didn't notice your comment on churches, though If you DO like that sort of thing there are plenty, and the town of Lynden just to the North is quite churchy

Can confirm. My mom grew up there. Churchy.

To be clear, not looking for a "churchy" place. Looking for an authentic community of believers focused on living life alongside each other as they try their best to follow Jesus. Not looking for places that just want to build buildings, or make a big deal about what Starbucks puts (or doesn't put) on their holiday cups, or insist that evolution isn't real and the earth is 6000 years old, or any of that stuff. It's really about quality, not quantity, and frankly some of the places with the most churches don't have what we're looking for. Fully expect that we will need to put boots on the ground and do our own research in this area since it's really something best done in-person.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on May 12, 2018, 09:25:39 PM
You can really only answer this question by spending a *lot* of time there yourself.  What ever any random internet person hates or loves about a place may or may not apply to you.  Every place has compromises for everyone; there is no perfect place.  Be careful relocating to any place you have not already been vacationing or visiting part time for years.  It is a kind of silly American fantasy to want to choose a place on a map and move there with no firsthand knowledge. Many people leap into this and then end up regretting their choice and finding out that not only is the grass not greener, they don't know anyone in their new location and would prefer their original city, warts and all.  The Devil You Know, etc.  You seem to be running away from Santa Cruz (one of the better cities in the country overall) more than toward anywhere else.  Maybe you would enjoy life there if you just looked at it differently.

Agree. Would never relocate to a place without first spending a good amount of time there. The point of this thread is twofold: 1) Narrow it down to a short list* and 2) increase our awareness of the things we should consider. For example, the whole "fakeness" issue. I would not have thought of that. I'm just now getting around to replying so some of the comments on this thread because I was out hiking/biking in Arizona. The "fakeness" thing was on my mind while hanging out in Sedona: beautiful place, great mountain biking and hiking, but yeah, I get the fakeness vibe there, which I think is just related to being ultra touristy. Touristy areas are touristy for a reason, they offer something special and so you have to take the good with the bad, so IMO it's a tradeoff that comes down to how touristy/fake relative to what makes it special. Sedona seems a bit too out of balance on the touristy side. Will need to spend a bit of time in Bend to get a sense for it.

Santa Cruz has many great upsides and relocation is not taken lightly. This is our home of many many years and there are many things we love about the area**, but there are also a number of very big downsides. The extreme HCOL and general crowdedness are the two biggest issues for us, and these continue to worsen with time. And the crime issue is rather bothersome. Don't know how to explain it if you haven't lived it day to day... just found that one of my properties had a couple aluminum window frames on the garage totally damaged by someone trying to pry the window open, and they cracked the window in the process. Thankfully they didn't get in because this was not the first attempt and the window was already property reinforced, but no fun having the structure damaged in the process. And there is existing damage from people trying to pry/force the doors open. Sucks to just plyboard up an otherwise nice window because it's not worth repairing it only to be damaged again. So are we running from Santa Cruz? In a way, I suppose, but obviously we would never consider moving if everything was already perfect. Perhaps to put a positive spin on it, when I consider the things that we really like to do (camping, hiking, fishing, hunting, mountain biking, road biking, backpacking)...it just makes a lot more sense for us to be in an area where there are more opportunities for these activities much closer and with fewer crowds, and at 1/2 the cost of living and where we're not always having to worry about stuff being stolen (recommended practice here has become to lock your bikes up *in* your garage because break ins are so common).

*Admittedly, this thread has added to my shortlist, so I guess it failed on this criteria. I'll count it as a positive failure.

**Also note that this thread is specifically asking for a bitch session since it's generally pretty easy to get info on what's great about an area
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on May 12, 2018, 09:36:53 PM
We were pretty enamored with Bend but decided against it a few years ago for a variety of reasons. From our time there, I get the impression that there are a lot of people who retired or semi-retired with enough money, many from California, who enjoy the combination of outdoor activities, decent food and beer culture, and a dry climate. Totally understandable given the issues that you describe in Santa Cruz, which are probably common in many other places. But, you might also want to consider the likelihood that if you are moving to a place with a lot of retirees, a high quality of life, and expensive housing, then there is going to be a shortage of workers to get things done. Unless you are super self-reliant, you are going to be competing with all those other retirees for people to fix your plumbing, to maintain your roads, to feed you, to take care of you after a knee surgery, etc., etc. Mountain towns all over the west are facing these issues, and it seems like a growing retired population is just going to exacerbate them over time.

Good points. The bolded basically describes us. Other than medical care we are very self reliant. If there's a shortage of people to do stuff then could be a good part time side hustle :)
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on May 13, 2018, 08:01:51 AM
This may also aid you in your search

http://www.city-data.com/advanced/search.php#body?fips=0&csize=a&sc=0&sd=0&states=ALL&near=&ps=20&p=0 (http://www.city-data.com/advanced/search.php#body?fips=0&csize=a&sc=0&sd=0&states=ALL&near=&ps=20&p=0)

Oooh, I like the sliding distribution selector thingy. Thanks.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: ice_beard on May 13, 2018, 09:29:50 PM
I actually travel down to Santa Cruz somewhat regularly for fishing and metal detecting (yes, seriously).  The vibe there of everyone trying to be so damn' skater/surfer is slightly maddening.  Even the visiting tourists all try to get in on the action by wearing Santa Cruz sweatshirts and ugly trucker hats.  I don't bother ever trying to drive home from the beach before 7p, 8p is better.  Most of the homeless folks I interact with on the beaches there are pretty nice.  I can sympathize with your complaints about SC.

A few random thoughts....

Regarding the homeless.... there is a significant homeless population in Anchorage, AK and even in Fairbanks which is probably the coldest "city" in the United States.  While areas that have near perfect climates for living outdoors year round, like the California coast likely attract more chronically "economically depressed" types, and especially so those communities that offer services for the homeless, a "real" winter season does not get rid of homelessness.   

Bend changed after the AARP named it the best place to retire in like the late 90s.  This caused a gold rush of sorts for retirees and it seems like the town has had rapid growth since then, but the economy has stagnated somewhat.  It used to be difficult to make a living there, not sure what it's like now.  I had a brief visit maybe 6 years ago and while the climbing at Smith Rock was really quite fun, the town left a bad taste in my mouth.  I couldn't really put my finger on it, but I remember being kind of let down by Bend after all I had heard and read about it.   I want to emphasize this was a brief visit, so everything I experienced was very superficial.  Hood River is DOPE.  Would be a great place to live. 

I personally am interested in Wenatchee and some of the other smaller cities in Oregon.  We almost pulled the trigger and moved to Spokane some years ago, but that didn't happen.  My cousin lives there and he seems to like it reasonably well.  It's unfortunate, but it seems like the PNW is much like California in that there is very little economic output outside of the biggest cities.  But if your FI, that doesn't matter so much.
 
Ashland has a small ski area but 2/4 really bad recent drought winters (2011-2015ish), the ski hill never opened.   


Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: patchyfacialhair on May 14, 2018, 11:11:23 AM
I'd reconsider writing off Colorado as a destination, OP. Fort Collins, for example, is its own distinct city, has fantastic weather, schools, etc. Also, Driving down to Denver International Airport (1 hr drive) to hop on a 2 hour plane ride back to CA to visit family is super easy, and flights can be had for very little money (Frontier's hub is Denver).

It's not nearly as crunchy as Boulder, and it's not Trumptown like Colorado Springs.

The cost of living can be high depending where you look, but it can also be much closer to "average" if you look hard.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on May 14, 2018, 11:45:26 AM
The skater/surfer vibe here cracks me up. More often than not folks are just trying to project a certain style... guess they think it's cool? Mostly harmless and humorous, though there's a small clique of locals who think they own the place who are very unwelcoming and generally unpleasant. This is probably true of most places, and easy enough to ignore/avoid. It helps that we don't surf or skate, nor do we go to the beach often. I expect Bend (and other mountain towns) have similarities with the REI set and dirtbags.

The homelessness issue is nuanced and multi-layered. I don't think climate can prevent homelessness, but it can discourage a certain and very problematic element. A retired ER physician recently wrote an excellent op-ed (http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/opinion/20180429/dr-richard-hencke-the-homeless-an-emergency-physicians-perspective) about his experience which resonated with those who've lived here a long time and have experienced the issue first-hand. My main issue are those who come here for the nice climate, drugs, free services, and lax law enforcement and yet have no plan for how to actually make it here - they can't afford it and just exploit free services while stealing to fund addiction - and there's no political will to prevent it. I suppose it's a case of "no good deed goes unpunished" as we are quite literally being overrun.

I'm looking forward to traveling through the PNW and checking out a few towns/cities. Will spend some time in Bend to get a sense for the vibe, not sold on it yet, pretty open minded at this point in the process.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: wbranch on May 14, 2018, 12:28:46 PM
The thing I have always heard about mountain towns is you either have 3 houses or 3 jobs. Applies more to areas with big ski hills like Steamboat, Sun Valley, Glenwood Springs/Carbondale/Aspen, Jackson Hole, Crested Butte, Big Sky. But definitely applies to other population centers in the Western US a lot more than what I was used to in the Midwest.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on May 14, 2018, 01:36:45 PM
I'd reconsider writing off Colorado as a destination, OP. Fort Collins, for example, is its own distinct city, has fantastic weather, schools, etc. Also, Driving down to Denver International Airport (1 hr drive) to hop on a 2 hour plane ride back to CA to visit family is super easy, and flights can be had for very little money (Frontier's hub is Denver).

It's not nearly as crunchy as Boulder, and it's not Trumptown like Colorado Springs.

The cost of living can be high depending where you look, but it can also be much closer to "average" if you look hard.

There's a lot we like about Ft Collins, was one of the first places we considered, would consider it again. But family relocating to PNW changed the calculus for us since being within 6-10 hrs drive is desirable. Air travel is such a pain in the ass: Drive time to/from airport, parking, TSA, checked luggage, flight time (incl. taxi), car rental. Can easily double or triple travel time for < 3 hr flight, and the cost for flights with a family of 4 + rental car gets expensive fast. If we don't love any of the places we visit in the PNW then we'll likely make a trip to check out the Front Range.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: patchyfacialhair on May 14, 2018, 03:44:26 PM
Fair enough. I missed the part about family in PNW, I thought I read that they were in CA.

I'm biased because I've grown to love CO since moving here 10 years ago and hope to never move. I also have family in CA, so I understand the hassle of being a little farther than a quick day-drive.

That said (and I'm not about to read through your post history...too lazy), if you're going from super-high property tax CA to super-low property tax CO, that in and of itself could cover the difference in travel spending. Property tax is just above 2k per year on our $400k+ house. Insurance is $2k per year.

Anyways, I'm sure you'll make the right decision in the end!
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on May 14, 2018, 04:35:32 PM
Fair enough. I missed the part about family in PNW, I thought I read that they were in CA.

I'm biased because I've grown to love CO since moving here 10 years ago and hope to never move. I also have family in CA, so I understand the hassle of being a little farther than a quick day-drive.

That said (and I'm not about to read through your post history...too lazy), if you're going from super-high property tax CA to super-low property tax CO, that in and of itself could cover the difference in travel spending. Property tax is just above 2k per year on our $400k+ house. Insurance is $2k per year.

Anyways, I'm sure you'll make the right decision in the end!

Family in CA and PNW, so for us a question of being near some family vs. none. Depending on our visits we may yet decide to bite the bullet and venture further out, especially if we determine that quality of life is much better in Ft Collins, Boise or similar. After all, day-to-day life is more important than occasional travel.

Property tax on our primary residence in CA is $8000/year, so yeah, the difference would more than make up for increased travel expenses.

I'm confident we'll thrive wherever we end up. The crazy thing about the process so far is realizing how many great areas there are in the US. At this point I feel like I'm mostly optimizing the "nice to have" things. I don't understand the folks who struggle for years to scratch out an existence in Santa Cruz/SF Bay Area because they are in a career/industry that doesn't pay much of a premium to be here. I mean, the climate is great and it's beautiful and all, but what's the point if you can't enjoy it because you have to work 2-3 jobs just to share a room?
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: jscott2135 on August 25, 2018, 08:12:58 PM
I live in Bend, been here for a few years and we have so many Californians here now THAT FREAKING LOVE IT.  Like are weird obsessed with Bend.  I grew up vacationing here and always enjoyed it, now that I'm here I want to move back to Portland, but that's because I'm a weird Valley girl and miss the rain.   My beefs with Bend for the most part wont be yours, outside of lack of diversity, FFS would it kill someone to open a damn Ethiopian restaurant here.  Our rush hour from one side of town to another may take you 20 minutes tops, if it takes me more than 15 minutes to get from the east side to the west I get mad lol.  If you're into the outdoors, this place is amazing, hiking, waterfalls, kayaking, fishing, skiing, whatever you want they got it year round...I hate cold so I pretty much hibernate during winter, but hey at least its sunny most of the time even in winter so you dont get the blues.  People really are nice here, even my stick in the mud in laws love going to the food cart courts and talking to stangers while they enjoy food and brews.  Schools are great, biking is encouraged, and everything feels ridiculously close and easy to get to. I would bitch about the cost of living but you will laugh at me so I'll keep my mouth shut. It is becoming much more like a mini California, it used to be strongly red, now its turning blue much to my satisfaction lol, thanks Cali and PDX! From where you're coming, unless you have beef with snow or large lack of diversity then Bend is pretty amazing.  My reasons for moving back will be, snow sucks, I miss the rain and the green of the valley and salmon fishing...and I am a foodie, I miss cheap quality ethnic food so bad it hurts. But Bend is growing and with it will come more restaurants.  If you're into Microbrewies you cant swing a dead cat without hitting one here, and even though I'm not a beer drinker I like going to places like Crux just for the view and the vibe - huge grass area with food carts to the side, families/couples come here in the summer, eat drink, look at the amazing view of the cascades and play pop up games of soccer or bean toss with strangers and its all just chill and laid back. If you have an aversion to trucker hats, and beards and casual dress codes then definitely move along ;) Not sure about other cities on your short list but fair warning.  Bend housing market and rental market are TIGHT, you have to be on it to find a home you want and put an offer in. If you do decide you want to know more there are two great FB groups (one for bay area folks moving here and one for newbies or people feeling it out that will give you some fantastic insight, (and you can always ping me for recommendations or info on realtors or neighborhoods etc!)

Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: Arbitrage on August 25, 2018, 09:51:41 PM
I've been narrowing down our RE destinations (moving from SoCal).  Lately, I've grown enamored of Bend, Bellingham, and Ashland. 

Visited Bend in June.  Loved it.

Visited Bellingham in mid August.  Loved it as well - it took more time than Bend to grow on me (less of a tourist mecca, and the city layout made it a bit more difficult to get a real sense of the place, but fell for it as time went on. 

Had planned to visit Ashland (did Bellingham instead), but in checking the daily weather for all three places, the summers there would be pretty miserable for my heat-intolerant son. 

Overall, I was 'wowed' more by Bend, but think that Bellingham might make more sense for us (climate, proximity to bigger cities and family).  Still have more time to decide - unfortunately!
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on August 31, 2018, 01:08:26 PM
Thanks jscott and Arbitrage for the info, very helpful. Bend still sounds great despite the downsides detailed on this thread, though will have to visit myself to check it out. We also have time to decide as we wrap up financial and personal things in CA. Housing certainly isn't cheap, though some of the smaller homes away from the downtown are fairly reasonable by our current standards.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: CanuckExpat on October 05, 2018, 11:10:01 PM
Thanks, good rundown.

You guys are seriously making me want to go to ID. The Sawtooths, Bitterroots, and even Eagle Cap Wilderness all within reach. Pretty sure it's a breach of etiquette, however, for a Californian to move straight to ID without first living in the PNW ;-) Seriously, I would consider living a bit further from extended family for it. Just not sure I can convince DW just yet, though have some time so worth a try.

Wanted to point out, we've been spending about three weeks in Boise, and I keep running into Californian transplants, it's almost uncanny (in addition to being Canadian expats, we're also expats from San Jose).

I like Boise. It is dry, but like really fucking dry and brown. You don't notice in the city since it's irrigated, but it's brown all around. I'm trying to figure out if I could get used to that. The people are nice, the city has good services, it's got great access to a lot of things, including hot springs. Far from the ocean. And whiteness... I noticed but it didn't bother me, but my wife very much noticed the many clones of blondes in yoga pants in the more affluent areas. People are very nice. I have trouble getting used to it (why is everyone stopping to say hi to me??)
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: BuildingFrugalHabits on October 06, 2018, 06:37:17 PM
That fakeness in Bend seems like a good problem to have.  I'd rather have that vs trails being overrun with hoards of people clogging roads, cutting trail, and leaving their trash everywhere.  Unfortunately, that's essentially what's happened to a lot of the public land near where I live in Colorado. 
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: BuildingFrugalHabits on October 06, 2018, 06:44:30 PM
I like this thread because we've considered relocating for greener pastures.  Santa Cruz was considered briefly but ruled out for much of the same reasons the OP stated.  The drug needles was an automatic deal breaker for me. We looked at Bend as well but I think the climate is too dry and harsh with poor gardening options.  I also like Park City for the proximity to mountain biking and skiing. 
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: Telecaster on October 06, 2018, 09:00:21 PM
Thanks, good rundown.

You guys are seriously making me want to go to ID. The Sawtooths, Bitterroots, and even Eagle Cap Wilderness all within reach. Pretty sure it's a breach of etiquette, however, for a Californian to move straight to ID without first living in the PNW ;-) Seriously, I would consider living a bit further from extended family for it. Just not sure I can convince DW just yet, though have some time so worth a try.

Wanted to point out, we've been spending about three weeks in Boise, and I keep running into Californian transplants, it's almost uncanny (in addition to being Canadian expats, we're also expats from San Jose).

I like Boise. It is dry, but like really fucking dry and brown. You don't notice in the city since it's irrigated, but it's brown all around. I'm trying to figure out if I could get used to that. The people are nice, the city has good services, it's got great access to a lot of things, including hot springs. Far from the ocean. And whiteness... I noticed but it didn't bother me, but my wife very much noticed the many clones of blondes in yoga pants in the more affluent areas. People are very nice. I have trouble getting used to it (why is everyone stopping to say hi to me??)

Boise is cool.  It is definitely on our short list for places to retire to.  Yes, it is definitely dry and brown.  Yes, compared to Seattle it actually seems odd there are so many white people.  I don't mean that  in a bad way at all (like Boise isn't diverse enough or something), it is just not what my brain expects to see. 

 But it is still on the cheap side, and it is really hard to beat if you want easy access to nature.  And downtown has its own cool, organic cultural thing happening.   One could do a lot worse. 
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on May 14, 2020, 04:24:31 PM
Sorry for the extreme necropost, but wanted to update this thread.

We did a big road trip last summer to scout potential locations. Lovely loop through OR, WA, ID, MT, WY. It's amazing how many great and varied places there are to live in the US. We experienced extreme gratitude during and after the trip because choosing a relocation spot was difficult with so many wonderful options.

Let me start by addressing the title of the thread and assure you that Bend, OR does not suck :) It's a great town, beautiful scenery, lots of potential. The downtown is a little on the small/undeveloped side, but would be adequate for us. I love the high desert and the Cascade Range. Would totally work for us. RE comments about it being "fake" -- yeah, we picked up on that. I would describe it as a resort tourist destination vibe, which then draws transplants wanting to "live the dream" full time. That's all fine, but we realized we don't want to live in a tourist town anymore. Been there, done that. Additionally, it seems to me (from my very limited experience there) that a no-growth mentality has taken root. I totally get that those moving there for the dream want to preserve things as they are, but I've lived this story before and know how it ends, it ain't pretty.

More importantly, we completely fell in love with Boise. Thanks to @LateStarter1, @Mele, and @cheddarpie for the recommendation. The downtown, parks, river/greenbelt, hills, locally owned restaurants and shops, farmer's market, and so much more. Everyone is extremely friendly and helpful. There's a real sense of energy and vibrancy to the city. It feels like a real city, but one that fits comfortably within its footprint, though clear that it's sprawling to the west. We also really like that it has an international airport, and the local ski resort with reasonable prices that's close enough to town. We were even surprised by the extent of the arts scene, not to the level of SF, but more than we expected.

Later on we flew to Boise for a quick winter trip to check things out again and start the house hunting. Easy flight, BOI is a great airport. While there winter conditions were milder than we expected (reference point was living in Germany). I would even say the conditions were nearly ideal for what I like, cool and partially cloudy, with some sun breaking through at times. A couple of months later we ended up buying a house in the North End, planning the move this summer, though this may be interesting with COVID :)

The big surprise for us was Eugene, OR. We put this on our list as a wildcard, but it ended up as a solid second place.

It's been an interesting and busy ~24 months as we explored options and wrapped up commitments here. Thanks everyone for your input, the outside perspective was very helpful for us.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: des999 on May 15, 2020, 10:26:12 AM
cool update, thanks for posting.  I remember reading this thread b/c I've thought about all the places on your list.  I have a friend who is in Boise and has been trying to get me there for years.

Good luck, and keep us posted.  I was planning to visit Boise this summer, but who knows now :)
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: clarkfan1979 on May 15, 2020, 03:20:55 PM
Dark Horse = Pueblo West, CO

Think of Denver, but housing is 50% lower, average temp is 5 degrees warmer, less snow, 10 more days of sunshine a year (310), no traffic, and very low taxes. Great local fishing, mountain biking, golf, camping, etc., etc., etc...

It's a 2 hour and 10 minute drive to Breckenridge and there is no traffic because you, "go the back-way" and avoid the Denver crowd. Denver is technically closer to Breckenridge, but it averages out to a 3 hour drive with traffic. Sometimes a little less, sometimes a little more.

Cons: Far from major airports. One hour to Colorado Springs airport and 2 hours and 10 minutes to Denver airport. No high paying tech jobs.

Other Factors: The town is mostly blue collar with honest hard working people. No fancy yuppies here.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: rivendale on May 15, 2020, 07:49:22 PM
I also would like to add my thanks for updating, especially since we are actively looking for similar areas as well.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: 314159 on May 17, 2020, 11:14:15 AM
Thanks for the update! I just found this thread today and it was fun to see where you ended up.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: BuffaloStache on July 25, 2020, 09:40:30 AM
I also found this thread today, and while I haven't read through all of it, certainly found it interesting.

I'm still ~7 years out from FI, but I'd like to do a similar down-select process on the US East coast. We have a lot of family out that way and also like the idea of being within driving distance. But also don't want to live in the touristy spots if we can avoid it (I'm looking at you, Asheville NC or Ithaca, NY).

Regardless, I may follow your process in ~3 years when we start seriously looking. Congrats on finding what you wanted, and best of luck with the move!
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on July 25, 2020, 11:10:37 AM
I also found this thread today, and while I haven't read through all of it, certainly found it interesting.

I'm still ~7 years out from FI, but I'd like to do a similar down-select process on the US East coast. We have a lot of family out that way and also like the idea of being within driving distance. But also don't want to live in the touristy spots if we can avoid it (I'm looking at you, Asheville NC or Ithaca, NY).

Regardless, I may follow your process in ~3 years when we start seriously looking. Congrats on finding what you wanted, and best of luck with the move!

Thanks, glad you found it useful.

We made the move about a month ago absolutely love it here. We realize we're still in the honeymoon phase and know winter is coming (literally and figuratively), yet cautiously optimistic as all the surprises have been happy ones and this place feels like a near perfect fit for our family.

Buying and selling real estate and doing a long distance move during a pandemic was weird, but still doable. Hopefully(!) by the time you start seriously looking all this will have blown over.

The great thing about doing this at/near FI is that you can take your time. You can narrow down a lot on-line to make your short-list of candidates, but there's something about going in the flesh that really gives a sense of a place. And in hindsight, half of the process for us involved soul searching. It's surprisingly difficult to discover what you really want, what is actually beneficial vs unrealistic expectations or overreaction to the status quo. It is all hard work, but IMO enjoyable if approached the right way.

Good luck and best wishes with your process. Have fun with it!
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on July 25, 2020, 11:12:20 AM
Bend is creepy.

How so? Though I suppose my creep-o-meter may be calibrated rather high coming from Santa Cruz, LOL!
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on July 25, 2020, 01:59:29 PM
Huh. I find the desperate need to project an image/virtual signal as a means to belong both weird and kinda sad, not creepy.

DW took our young daughter to a park when we lived in Santa Cruz. While our daughter played on the playground DW was approached by a dude that, on the scale of creepiness from 1 (least) to 10 (most) was an 11. He commented that he thought my daughter was beautiful, then proceeded to try and sell a grimy kids makeup kit to DW. When DW politely refused he became visibly agitated and aggressive. They hightailed it out of there. The next day we learned that he's a convicted sex offender and was arrested later that day for conceal carry of a rather large fixed blade knife and, you know, being a sex offender hanging around a playground. He was back on the street the same day. Now that's creepy! Both the dude but also a legal system that thought it fine for him to be out and about like that.

So I don't mind white people doing silly/annoying white people things, can even find the humor in it. But it just plain sucks to feel like you can't safely play in your neighborhood park or let you kids walk around the block. While Bend obviously wasn't our top choice to live, we thought it was a great place to visit and will probably be back to vacation.

I suppose everyone has their own creepiness criteria :)
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: Fru-Gal on July 25, 2020, 03:27:27 PM
I think you & I mean the same thing by creepy.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: MonkeyJenga on July 25, 2020, 03:56:55 PM
I'm glad you found a great spot! I know of a mini exodus from Portland/Vancouver due to cost, and I've heard good things from visitors. I doubt I'll ever make the switch myself (state politics, even less diverse than here), but I can see the appeal.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: Christof on July 25, 2020, 05:33:23 PM
While there winter conditions were milder than we expected (reference point was living in Germany).

Germany in winter is pretty diverse... Northern Germany, where I live, doesn‘t have a lot of snow and tends to be humid and rainy most of the time. That is pretty much the opposite of high desert weather. I‘ve been visiting the Bend area for one or two weeks a year for almost twenty years now because we have friends in the area. Mostly I‘ve been there in spring and fall. Fall is nicer in Bend, the colors are brighter and the air is fresher. I especially love leaving the aircraft in Redmond and be greeted by this intense smell of juniper trees and a light breeze in Fall.

Our friends are farmers so we here a lot of stories about those strange people living in the city. ;-) There is definitely some discrepancies between those living in the city and those living in rural areas, and those coming there for retirement (big community) and those still working.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on July 25, 2020, 09:49:21 PM
I'm glad you found a great spot! I know of a mini exodus from Portland/Vancouver due to cost, and I've heard good things from visitors. I doubt I'll ever make the switch myself (state politics, even less diverse than here), but I can see the appeal.

Interesting. I do see a ton of OR and WA plates here, wondered what was going on.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on July 25, 2020, 09:56:41 PM
While there winter conditions were milder than we expected (reference point was living in Germany).

Germany in winter is pretty diverse... Northern Germany, where I live, doesn‘t have a lot of snow and tends to be humid and rainy most of the time. That is pretty much the opposite of high desert weather. I‘ve been visiting the Bend area for one or two weeks a year for almost twenty years now because we have friends in the area. Mostly I‘ve been there in spring and fall. Fall is nicer in Bend, the colors are brighter and the air is fresher. I especially love leaving the aircraft in Redmond and be greeted by this intense smell of juniper trees and a light breeze in Fall.

Our friends are farmers so we here a lot of stories about those strange people living in the city. ;-) There is definitely some discrepancies between those living in the city and those living in rural areas, and those coming there for retirement (big community) and those still working.

We were in Munich, so a fair amount of snow. I was impressed with how quickly the city workers could clear all the streets and sidewalks after a snow event. They had a bunch of nifty narrow 1-person snow removal vehicles. Quintessential German efficiency. Winter was pretty icy, except for when the Föhn blew in.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: anni on August 04, 2020, 08:40:33 AM
Thanks for reviving this thread with the update! I am feeling super self conscious about looking to maybe move to Bend now... maybe not interested in million dollar houses but I think everyone wants to "live the dream" someplace :) I thought Bend was the poster child for friendly, nature-lovin' city people. I wonder which city in this thread will be the next to fill up with posers like me haha.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on August 04, 2020, 09:57:31 PM
Thanks for reviving this thread with the update! I am feeling super self conscious about looking to maybe move to Bend now... maybe not interested in million dollar houses but I think everyone wants to "live the dream" someplace :) I thought Bend was the poster child for friendly, nature-lovin' city people. I wonder which city in this thread will be the next to fill up with posers like me haha.

Nothing to feel self-conscious about, you should visit and see what it's like :) It's not what we were looking for, yet a very beautiful area and a pleasant city with a lot to offer. Outside the trendy areas there are still houses to be had in the $350k-$500k range.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: The Fake Cheap on August 05, 2020, 06:48:47 PM
Sorry for the extreme necropost, but wanted to update this thread.

I read through the 1st page and only noticed towards the end it was from 2018!  Once I saw that I was really hoping for an update!  So thanks for updating!  It is the best when that happens!
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: PawPrint53 on August 11, 2020, 04:57:35 PM
Not sure if the OP has moved to Boise yet, but just wanted to say that getting  Idaho license plates should be at the top of the to do list.  And be sure and pronounce Boise correctly. Californians usually flock to Eagle so glad to see you went for the liberal North End. :-)
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on August 11, 2020, 08:46:59 PM
Not sure if the OP has moved to Boise yet, but just wanted to say that getting  Idaho license plates should be at the top of the to do list.  And be sure and pronounce Boise correctly. Californians usually flock to Eagle so glad to see you went for the liberal North End. :-)

We got our new plates last week. Wasn't the top of the to do list (frankly, don't care what, if anything, people thought about our plates), but glad to check it off the list. Had the pronunciation down on our first visit :) There are quite a few ex-Californians here in the North End. Weirdly, over the past couple of weeks I've noticed a lot more plates from New York and New Jersey around town. Tourists, or people moving here?
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: Telecaster on August 14, 2020, 04:36:09 PM
Boise is cool.  It is off the beaten path a bit (not near another major city) so the locals have created their own arts scene.  Great outdoors opportunities.   Thriving beer scene.  Good bars, good restaurants.  The wife and I have talked about it being on our short list.  About two years to FIRE, I reckon. 
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks
Post by: FINate on December 05, 2020, 12:47:15 PM
We're coming up on 6 months here (Boise, ID, for those who haven't read the entire thread), thought I'd give another update. We still LOVE it here. If anything, this city and area has grown on us even more. My parents followed us up here, so it's wonderful to have family nearby.

Things we absolutely love:
The only thing so far that we don't love is the pandemic, makes it difficult to connect with more people. But the city proper is doing a good job of managing a reasonable balance, and most people in our area wear masks and socially distance. We know this will eventually pass. This coming summer I'm looking forward to exploring more of the Sawtooth Wilderness, more dispersed camping, and getting in some hunting again (skipped this year, too much going on).

For those planning a relocation in the near future, one more thing to add after having more time to reflect: The city where you move is important, but so is the neighborhood. It was worth the extra time we took to visit multiple neighborhoods in person and in different seasons. And it took us about 6 months of watching the real estate market to find the house in the location we wanted, but it was worth the wait and the planning.

Best wishes all, and Happy Holidays!
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks [Update: It doesn't but moved elsewhere]
Post by: 314159 on December 05, 2020, 02:48:21 PM
Thanks very much for the update! I'm happy to hear you are getting along so well in your new home. Happy Holidays!
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks [Update: It doesn't but moved elsewhere]
Post by: jrhampt on December 07, 2020, 06:28:43 PM
My negative thoughts on Bend and Eugene (as an east coaster):

SO MUCH POT.  That said, the names of all the pot shops are hilarious (chronic care, etc)
I am not a pot smoker, so I was kind of put off by how much of it there was.

Terrible cell phone service as soon as you get outside the city limits of either town.  How is there zero cel coverage in like 90% of the state??

Eugene specifically just thought it was too cool for anything.  Loads of people trying to be hippies.  I found it pretentious and hated the slacker vibe.  Really good food though and some decent taco stands.
Sorry, trying to keep it negative but it’s hard to find good tacos in Connecticut so I was impressed.

Bend - this really is not its fault, but I found the landscape just felt wrong to me.  It was dry and desert like, but there were very strange forests.  It just didn’t feel like a landscape that could feel like home to me.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks [Update: It doesn't but moved elsewhere]
Post by: FINate on December 07, 2020, 07:57:44 PM
My negative thoughts on Bend and Eugene (as an east coaster):

SO MUCH POT.  That said, the names of all the pot shops are hilarious (chronic care, etc)
I am not a pot smoker, so I was kind of put off by how much of it there was.

I hear ya. I have mixed feelings about the whole pot thing, also not a user. The modern stuff is highly GMO to increase the potency of the psychoactive component, doesn't seem like a good idea for long term use. And I find it very peculiar that places continue to crack down on smoking tobacco (also not a user) while blessing the smoking of pot (https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/S-F-bans-tobacco-smoking-inside-apartment-15768584.php). I just don't get it, smoking is unhealthy, period. In any case, I don't need yet another thing. That said, I also don't really want it criminalized, especially small quantities.

But, yeah, when a place gets TOO into pot it's annoying. When we lived in Santa Cruz we lost a great little local coffee shop down the street when the location became a pot shop :( I feel the same way about wine (which I do enjoy) when an entire area becomes vineyards and tasting rooms and all the real farms/agriculture is overtaken by a monocrop.

Bend - this really is not its fault, but I found the landscape just felt wrong to me.  It was dry and desert like, but there were very strange forests.  It just didn’t feel like a landscape that could feel like home to me.

Guessing you're talking about Pinyon–juniper woodland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinyon%E2%80%93juniper_woodland)? It is definitely has a distinctive look and feel. I like it, but then I grew up exploring arid conifer forests and really like the Great Basin and desert southwest landscape. I suppose beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks [Update: It doesn't but moved elsewhere]
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on December 07, 2020, 08:07:35 PM
@FINate - thanks for the update. Glad you like Boise. I grew up in Washington, so have been to Boise a handful of times, way back in the 80s. I did want to ask about your diversity comment. (Sidenote: my spouse is not white.) When you mention that there is some diversity, can you give more detail? You also mentioned that it's a pretty accepting place (different politics, etc). All of this sounds very positive & the landscape is a great fit for what we want in retirement. But, spouse has been reluctant to consider anywhere in Idaho due to the perhaps perceived diversity issue. We're currently in the bay area.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks [Update: It doesn't but moved elsewhere]
Post by: pdxvandal on December 07, 2020, 09:09:08 PM
Boise's my hometown. It's not very diverse, and never has been, but perhaps slightly more so than when I grew up there. For example, it's less than 1% Black. Latinos are the largest ethnic group but still less than 10%.

The "Boise nice" thing is real. Strangers say hello. I found it weird when I moved to Oregon strangers wouldn't make eye contact with me or rarely say hello. I'm used to it now, but it's certainly not as friendly here as in Idaho.

Hyde Park is a really cool spot with some cool old houses and bungalows. I spent a lot of time there as a teenager and young adult. In the 1980s, that 'hood was a bit rough around the edges. It was underground hipster for a while in the 1990s and 2000s, but now seems full blown yuppie (no offense) -- Bend is far worse yuppie-wise. But if you can afford it, kudos! It's still one of the best spots to live in town.

The town gets a bit provincial, largely due to its proximity to no major city (SLC is 5 hours away, PDX 6, Seattle 8 by car). Some folks are well-traveled, but many are not and could never IMAGINE leaving Boise for any reason.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks [Update: It doesn't but moved elsewhere]
Post by: FINate on December 07, 2020, 09:12:42 PM
@FINate - thanks for the update. Glad you like Boise. I grew up in Washington, so have been to Boise a handful of times, way back in the 80s. I did want to ask about your diversity comment. (Sidenote: my spouse is not white.) When you mention that there is some diversity, can you give more detail? You also mentioned that it's a pretty accepting place (different politics, etc). All of this sounds very positive & the landscape is a great fit for what we want in retirement. But, spouse has been reluctant to consider anywhere in Idaho due to the perhaps perceived diversity issue. We're currently in the bay area.

Well, it's not a lot of diversity, especially compared to the Bay Area. Maybe just a bit more than we initially expected. Going off City Data stats (2017) Boise is ~20% non white compared to ~40% for Santa Cruz. No idea what the numbers are now. It's still very white, though we see some diversity around town, and in our neighborhood we noticed teens of different races mixing quite a lot near the usual hangouts. But our neighborhood is where many of the Bay Area folks have moved to: liberal, educated, affluent, lots of BLM/Biden/In this house we believe... signs, leafy streets, older stately homes, and quite a few Teslas and Audis -- Los Gatos or Saratoga is probably an apt comparison.

The East and West End have a similar feel. Boise as a whole is fairly Democratic, but it's a spot of blue in a sea of red, with further out suburbs that are very conservative. Though I don't know to what extent overt racism exists anywhere out here (though have heard that there's long been a white supremacy element in the northern panhandle/eastern WA). And I have to confess my own white privilege and admit that I cannot confidently say what it would like to be a person of color either in my own neighborhood, or anywhere else in ID. There are quick ~1hr flights from SJC/SFO/OAK to BOI, may be worth a trip to check it out in person.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks [Update: It doesn't but moved elsewhere]
Post by: FINate on December 07, 2020, 09:26:55 PM
Boise's my hometown. It's not very diverse, and never has been, but perhaps slightly more so than when I grew up there. For example, it's less than 1% Black. Latinos are the largest ethnic group but still less than 10%.

The "Boise nice" thing is real. Strangers say hello. I found it weird when I moved to Oregon strangers wouldn't make eye contact with me or rarely say hello. I'm used to it now, but it's certainly not as friendly here as in Idaho.

Hyde Park is a really cool spot with some cool old houses and bungalows. I spent a lot of time there as a teenager and young adult. In the 1980s, that 'hood was a bit rough around the edges. It was underground hipster for a while in the 1990s and 2000s, but now seems full blown yuppie (no offense) -- Bend is far worse yuppie-wise. But if you can afford it, kudos! It's still one of the best spots to live in town.

I love the whole "Boise nice" thing! I've had to unlearn the "California stare" (e.g. ignoring people), still working on saying hello more around town and smiling.

The North End is totally yuppie/hipster, but I don't mind. Like having the foodie places and boutiques around. No offense taken :)
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks [Update: It doesn't but moved elsewhere]
Post by: Arbitrage on December 08, 2020, 08:08:39 AM
Glad to hear that it's working out.  Boise never made it high on our list due to the hot summers, which are part of our motivation for moving (health conditions/heat intolerance in our family), but I can definitely see the appeal.  Bend, Boise, and our chosen location of Bellingham will all suffer somewhat from lack of diversity, though Bellingham is much closer geographically to diversity (Vancouver, and Seattle to a lesser extent). 

I do envy the 'Boise nice' comments a bit, since it sounds preferable to the PNW freeze we'll be facing. 
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks [Update: It doesn't but moved elsewhere]
Post by: BuffaloStache on December 10, 2020, 09:32:33 AM
Echoing others, glad to hear it's working out!

It's really good to have a positive example of someone moving to a Lower COL space after/around FI. It's something that's talked about a lot on these forums, but there aren't many examples with follow-ups of people who have actually done it (or most of the stories I've read have been negative). A common theme I see is that to be successful, you have to go in with an open mind and make an effort to continue doing activities you enjoy/meet new people. It seems like you and your family have done that, which is even more impressive given the pandemic! Congrats! 
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks [Update: It doesn't but moved elsewhere]
Post by: Christof on December 22, 2020, 09:30:08 AM
Bend - this really is not its fault, but I found the landscape just felt wrong to me.  It was dry and desert like, but there were very strange forests.  It just didn’t feel like a landscape that could feel like home to me.

It’s called high desert and is indeed somewhat unique. I do like arriving into RDM and smelling all these Juniper trees first thing when you leave the aircraft and I miss not being able to travel there this year to visit close friends.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks [Update: It doesn't but moved elsewhere]
Post by: lhamo on December 27, 2020, 04:13:47 PM
@MaybeBabyMustache, one quick and dirty indicator I use to check how large the Asian population is in a given area is to do a search for Asian markets.  Places with a large Asian population will not only have lots of them, there will also be many that specialize in a particular subregion.  The greater Seattle area now has many different Chinese, Vietnamese, Japanese (if you consider Uwajimaya's roots  -- they are really pan-asian at this point), Korean, and Indian markets, plus some smaller ones for things like Filipino and Cambodian/Lao/Thai, etc.   They are also spread around the region pretty liberally, unlike 30 years ago when you basically had to make a trip to the International District in Seattle to find them. 

Looks like Boise has a few, mostly general pan-Asian.  No H-Mart yet:

https://www.yelp.com/search?find_desc=Asian+Grocery+Stores&find_loc=Boise%2C+ID

Bend doesn't seem to have any.

You can do a similar search for other cuisines to check for other types of diversity.

Makes me miss my old neighborhood in NYC where we were a couple of blocks away from every type of regional subspecialty you could want....
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks [Update: It doesn't but moved elsewhere]
Post by: FINate on December 27, 2020, 05:41:53 PM
Welcome to inversion season!

The inversion is beautiful from the top of the ski resort on a sunny day :)
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks [Update: It doesn't but moved elsewhere]
Post by: jrhampt on December 28, 2020, 12:30:26 PM
Bend - this really is not its fault, but I found the landscape just felt wrong to me.  It was dry and desert like, but there were very strange forests.  It just didn’t feel like a landscape that could feel like home to me.

It’s called high desert and is indeed somewhat unique. I do like arriving into RDM and smelling all these Juniper trees first thing when you leave the aircraft and I miss not being able to travel there this year to visit close friends.

Yes, as an east-coaster near the shore, I'm used to much much higher humidity, even in the winter, and the vegetation is very different.  It's a rare day for us when it gets below 50% humidity here.  Inland it's a little dryer, but not Bend dry.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks [Update: It doesn't but moved elsewhere]
Post by: GilesMM on February 08, 2023, 06:43:39 AM
@MaybeBabyMustache, one quick and dirty indicator I use to check how large the Asian population is in a given area is to do a search for Asian markets.  Places with a large Asian population will not only have lots of them, there will also be many that specialize in a particular subregion.  The greater Seattle area now has many different Chinese, Vietnamese, Japanese (if you consider Uwajimaya's roots  -- they are really pan-asian at this point), Korean, and Indian markets, plus some smaller ones for things like Filipino and Cambodian/Lao/Thai, etc.   They are also spread around the region pretty liberally, unlike 30 years ago when you basically had to make a trip to the International District in Seattle to find them. 

Looks like Boise has a few, mostly general pan-Asian.  No H-Mart yet:

https://www.yelp.com/search?find_desc=Asian+Grocery+Stores&find_loc=Boise%2C+ID (https://www.yelp.com/search?find_desc=Asian+Grocery+Stores&find_loc=Boise%2C+ID)

Bend doesn't seem to have any.

You can do a similar search for other cuisines to check for other types of diversity.

Makes me miss my old neighborhood in NYC where we were a couple of blocks away from every type of regional subspecialty you could want....


Bend is crushingly non-diverse.  The last census put it at 90% white, 9% latino and 1% everything else. Holy cow.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks [Update: It doesn't but moved elsewhere]
Post by: Turtle on February 08, 2023, 12:05:27 PM
Bootcamp in the 1990's - we had a couple recruits from rural Oregon who had come in on the buddy program straight out of high school.

One of them had literally never, ever seen anyone who wasn't white anywhere but on TV prior to leaving for boot camp. 
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks [Update: It doesn't but moved elsewhere]
Post by: jrhampt on February 08, 2023, 12:41:47 PM
Wasn't Oregon basically founded by a bunch of white supremacists?  If I'm remembering correctly, the lack of diversity probably started there and has continued.
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks [Update: It doesn't but moved elsewhere]
Post by: mspym on February 08, 2023, 01:57:02 PM
Wasn't Oregon basically founded by a bunch of white supremacists?  If I'm remembering correctly, the lack of diversity probably started there and has continued.
Yup, it was started as a sundown state and the lack of diversity was a deliberate decision. David Newiert documented this on his blog and then a couple of books http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/ but It hasn’t been updated in a number of years
Title: Re: Convince me that Bend, OR sucks [Update: It doesn't but moved elsewhere]
Post by: jiimmy on February 08, 2023, 03:25:33 PM
When South Sister erupts, look out Bend!

It could happen next week, or 10,000 years from now. :-)