Author Topic: Contract negotiations for entry level engineer?  (Read 8202 times)

realityinabox

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Contract negotiations for entry level engineer?
« on: March 23, 2015, 11:58:10 AM »
I am starting to interview for entry level electrical engineering jobs and was hoping you all could give me some contract negotiation tips.  I know that is smart to give a counter offer, but I'm not sure how hard is too hard to push on contract negotiations. 

I had an interview the morning and they asked me about expected compensation. I said I've read that the median starting salary for electrical engineers is $65k and I have a 3 semesters of solid internship experience and a 3.85 GPA, so I think I've proven myself to be more than a median student/candidate (implying $65k would be bare minimum, but didn't give an upper bound to limit myself).  When I said this, the guy made a face that looked slightly shocked, almost as if saying "good luck with that", but just wrote the number down and we moved on.  I didn't change my stance or apologize for my response, but his face made me a little weary. 

I'm hoping to start out at $70k.  On the one hand this seems insanely high and I'm having doubt about whether that is realistic, but on the other hand, my reasoning about still holds.  Am I crazy?  Any pointers?

Thanks!

waffle

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Re: Contract negotiations for entry level engineer?
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2015, 12:13:50 PM »
From an HR perspective you always want to negotiate some. How much negotiation will depend on how desperate you are for the job, but always negotiate. Every position should come with a range that the employer has set. They wont generally tell you what the range is, but you can be sure that the initial offer is in the lower half of the range. I don't know what the typical range might be for an entry level electrical engineer, but if they are just $5-10k out of your expectation then there is probably plenty of room to negotiate up. If they are ridiculously low then the company is probably either financially unstable so they aren't able to pay to the industry standard, or they are just cheap and you probably don't want to work for them anyway... 

Exflyboy

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Re: Contract negotiations for entry level engineer?
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2015, 12:15:56 PM »
Well it depends where.. In a high tech industry in Portland oregon I would be paying you between $75 to 80k.

In the bay area your probably close to 6 figures.

I'm a red panda

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Re: Contract negotiations for entry level engineer?
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2015, 12:20:11 PM »
Is that median for your region, or for the country?
You need to look specifically based on your location. That might be why the guy was surprised.


I'd wait to see what they come back with.  Without a doubt there is wiggle room in their offer.


Do you have other prospects? You can be more aggressive with your negotiations if you really can afford to not take the offer.

realityinabox

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Re: Contract negotiations for entry level engineer?
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2015, 12:23:42 PM »
Is that median for your region, or for the country?
You need to look specifically based on your location. That might be why the guy was surprised.


I'd wait to see what they come back with.  Without a doubt there is wiggle room in their offer.


Do you have other prospects? You can be more aggressive with your negotiations if you really can afford to not take the offer.

I'm in Grand Rapids, MI, so it is a moderately sized market with reasonable cost of living. One of my classmates got an offer for $60k and negotiated up to $65k with another company in town. I do have another company that seems quite promising, so we'll see.

Well it depends where.. In a high tech industry in Portland oregon I would be paying you between $75 to 80k.

In the bay area your probably close to 6 figures.

Make it $85 and I'll move right on out!

MayDay

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Re: Contract negotiations for entry level engineer?
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2015, 12:26:29 PM »
If it's with Stryker, they pay very low and don't negotiate, from my experience.

Exflyboy

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Re: Contract negotiations for entry level engineer?
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2015, 12:43:46 PM »
Is that median for your region, or for the country?
You need to look specifically based on your location. That might be why the guy was surprised.


I'd wait to see what they come back with.  Without a doubt there is wiggle room in their offer.


Do you have other prospects? You can be more aggressive with your negotiations if you really can afford to not take the offer.

I'm in Grand Rapids, MI, so it is a moderately sized market with reasonable cost of living. One of my classmates got an offer for $60k and negotiated up to $65k with another company in town. I do have another company that seems quite promising, so we'll see.

Well it depends where.. In a high tech industry in Portland oregon I would be paying you between $75 to 80k.

In the bay area your probably close to 6 figures.

Make it $85 and I'll move right on out!

If you are a minority with a Master's you could get $85k... Whether your any good or not.

One gal was given $90k.. and as it happens totally useless, a ridiculous amount of money for a graduate..

WhatIsFrugalAfterAll

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Re: Contract negotiations for entry level engineer?
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2015, 01:25:42 PM »
You really need 2 jobs to play off each other.

I have seen new people come in and ask for 70k.. hr said NOPE, 50k is our standard college grad rate. Then the same person goes off to Competitor B and gets an offer for 65k... and the company will not happily offer 72k (if they really liked you).

Don't be afraid to negotiate, but don't be stupid. You need to know market rate in YOUR area. National rate means nothing unless you are willing to move.

My normal advice is avoid giving the first number. Say you are open to all fair possibilities. But get 2-3 job offers.... then you can play them off each other, and try to land the one you like MOST for the same or more pay than the others.

MattC

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Re: Contract negotiations for entry level engineer?
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2015, 02:03:01 PM »
I would generally agree with the other posters with two caveats. 

First, a more important number than starting salary would be what typical folks make at the company after 5 years or so.  Do they give folks real raises, or do they inflate offer amounts and then give small raises?  If a company is actually going to be training you to do interesting stuff, then your value as an engineer is probably relatively low right out of college (far less than what they'll pay you in year 1), but will ramp up over a few years.  They're investing in you with a hope of payoff in a couple years.

Also, don't undervalue a companies reputation.  I would pick a good company offering $60k over an OK company offering $70k all day long.  Sure, $$$ your first year is good, but the value to your career of working for a good company is in almost all cases worth more than the premium you can sometimes get from middling companies. 

realityinabox

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Re: Contract negotiations for entry level engineer?
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2015, 02:16:18 PM »
I would generally agree with the other posters with two caveats. 

First, a more important number than starting salary would be what typical folks make at the company after 5 years or so.  Do they give folks real raises, or do they inflate offer amounts and then give small raises?  If a company is actually going to be training you to do interesting stuff, then your value as an engineer is probably relatively low right out of college (far less than what they'll pay you in year 1), but will ramp up over a few years.  They're investing in you with a hope of payoff in a couple years.

Also, don't undervalue a companies reputation.  I would pick a good company offering $60k over an OK company offering $70k all day long.  Sure, $$$ your first year is good, but the value to your career of working for a good company is in almost all cases worth more than the premium you can sometimes get from middling companies.

What would you say is a decent raise expectation?  I know some people who work at the company I interviewed with and they said 3-5% a year based on performance.  I'm not sure whether that is good or bad, but assuming 3% ~ inflation, that doesn't seem like a very good raise.

Exflyboy

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Re: Contract negotiations for entry level engineer?
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2015, 02:22:26 PM »
Well I was the engineering manager for a group in a HIGHLY respected company.. I was appalled at the fact we paid more for (relatively) useless graduates, but our engineers with 4 years experience were paid less.

Of course I wasn't allowed to say anything. It got so bad we had the one minority who was paid $90k straight out of school and 30 year veterans with a PE license and seriously top notch performance for $100k..

I just vowed if i were ever in the job market again I would negotiate the highest salary I could then look for another job every 2 to 3 years.

You'd make far more money doing this assuming your taking opportunities to improve your skill set along the way.

ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

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Re: Contract negotiations for entry level engineer?
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2015, 03:33:14 PM »
Do look at benefit packages as well. When I was starting I had two offers that were different by $5k, but the benefits at the higher-salary job were much worse.

Retire-Canada

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Re: Contract negotiations for entry level engineer?
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2015, 03:45:34 PM »

If you are a minority with a Master's you could get $85k... Whether your any good or not.

This is coming off as racist.

There are crappy white folk and great white folk in any industry. I can just as easily point to situations in my work history where being white got you promoted over minorities without any justification. Why don't we leave race out of the discussion?

-- Vik
« Last Edit: March 23, 2015, 03:59:28 PM by Vikb »

Retire-Canada

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Re: Contract negotiations for entry level engineer?
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2015, 03:48:29 PM »

My normal advice is avoid giving the first number.

^^^^ this is good advice.

Say you'll accept a fair market rate for someone of your education & experience then ask what the company typically pays for the position you are applying for.

You can say you are researching what the market rate is and will get back to them if they press you.

-- Vik

James!

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Re: Contract negotiations for entry level engineer?
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2015, 03:49:37 PM »
I would generally agree with the other posters with two caveats. 

First, a more important number than starting salary would be what typical folks make at the company after 5 years or so.  Do they give folks real raises, or do they inflate offer amounts and then give small raises?  If a company is actually going to be training you to do interesting stuff, then your value as an engineer is probably relatively low right out of college (far less than what they'll pay you in year 1), but will ramp up over a few years.  They're investing in you with a hope of payoff in a couple years.

Also, don't undervalue a companies reputation.  I would pick a good company offering $60k over an OK company offering $70k all day long.  Sure, $$$ your first year is good, but the value to your career of working for a good company is in almost all cases worth more than the premium you can sometimes get from middling companies.

What would you say is a decent raise expectation?  I know some people who work at the company I interviewed with and they said 3-5% a year based on performance.  I'm not sure whether that is good or bad, but assuming 3% ~ inflation, that doesn't seem like a very good raise.

These are all good questions, but as an engineer ~12 years in to it, I think you just need to follow your instincts right now about what you really value and don't get too hung up on making a few grand more or less.

Much more important to you right now are (in no particular order):

Environment for learning, mentorship opportunities, growth potential
Social environment, work/life balance, commute
Location! I'd rather make 60k in san diego than 100k in Fort Wayne, IN.

You are an engineer and you are already fiscally responsible. You will do fine financially whether you start right now making 60k or 80k.

Whether or not you enjoy your life and get a great start to your career are much more important.

Just my $0.02!

-J

Le Poisson

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Re: Contract negotiations for entry level engineer?
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2015, 03:57:05 PM »
Well I was the engineering manager for a group in a HIGHLY respected company.. I was appalled at the fact we paid more for (relatively) useless graduates, but our engineers with 4 years experience were paid less.

Of course I wasn't allowed to say anything. It got so bad we had the one minority who was paid $90k straight out of school and 30 year veterans with a PE license and seriously top notch performance for $100k..

I just vowed if i were ever in the job market again I would negotiate the highest salary I could then look for another job every 2 to 3 years.

You'd make far more money doing this assuming your taking opportunities to improve your skill set along the way.

+1

Traffic Engineer here. I job hopped in consulting positions for a while to get exposure and build my name. Then got into the public sector and settled in. Build a portfolio of things that make people say wow. Get yourself a name in a specialty that offers a future. Lock your sights on where you want your career to go, then the money will follow.


JLee

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Re: Contract negotiations for entry level engineer?
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2015, 04:33:55 PM »
I would generally agree with the other posters with two caveats. 

First, a more important number than starting salary would be what typical folks make at the company after 5 years or so.  Do they give folks real raises, or do they inflate offer amounts and then give small raises?  If a company is actually going to be training you to do interesting stuff, then your value as an engineer is probably relatively low right out of college (far less than what they'll pay you in year 1), but will ramp up over a few years.  They're investing in you with a hope of payoff in a couple years.

Also, don't undervalue a companies reputation.  I would pick a good company offering $60k over an OK company offering $70k all day long.  Sure, $$$ your first year is good, but the value to your career of working for a good company is in almost all cases worth more than the premium you can sometimes get from middling companies.

What would you say is a decent raise expectation?  I know some people who work at the company I interviewed with and they said 3-5% a year based on performance.  I'm not sure whether that is good or bad, but assuming 3% ~ inflation, that doesn't seem like a very good raise.

These are all good questions, but as an engineer ~12 years in to it, I think you just need to follow your instincts right now about what you really value and don't get too hung up on making a few grand more or less.

Much more important to you right now are (in no particular order):

Environment for learning, mentorship opportunities, growth potential
Social environment, work/life balance, commute
Location! I'd rather make 60k in san diego than 100k in Fort Wayne, IN.

You are an engineer and you are already fiscally responsible. You will do fine financially whether you start right now making 60k or 80k.

Whether or not you enjoy your life and get a great start to your career are much more important.

Just my $0.02!

-J

Area definitely plays a part, but $100k in Fort Wayne is worth the equivalent of $147k in San Diego. That $60k San Diego job would be the equivalent of earning $40,588 in Fort Wayne.  That "extra" $100k would get you to FI wayyyy faster!  If you just plan on starting off there, then sure -- go for what you want and grow from there. :) Cost of living can vary wildly, though.

James!

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Re: Contract negotiations for entry level engineer?
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2015, 05:08:32 PM »
Area definitely plays a part, but $100k in Fort Wayne is worth the equivalent of $147k in San Diego. That $60k San Diego job would be the equivalent of earning $40,588 in Fort Wayne.  That "extra" $100k would get you to FI wayyyy faster!  If you just plan on starting off there, then sure -- go for what you want and grow from there. :) Cost of living can vary wildly, though.

At the risk of saying something wildly un-mustachian, I put a lot of value in quality of life in your early 20's. You only get that time once. I also value optimizing life later, obviously, but I know many people who worked incredibly hard in the first 5-10 years of their careers and regret it now, regardless of financial success.

I think you can do both!

mozar

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Re: Contract negotiations for entry level engineer?
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2015, 06:40:39 PM »
I think you should be hung up on a few thousand dollars. Your starting salary will be the basis for your entire career. I've tried both ways. I find that not giving a number first doesn't improve my outcome. I prefer to give my current salary and tell them what % raise I would be willing to leave for. Last time for 15%. Since you don't currently have a salary your own research sounds good.
The recruiter probably made a face when they saw that they wouldn't be able to low-ball you. Recruiters don't get serious about negotiating unless you have more than one offer. When I got my job out of grad school I asked my friends in the program the salary they accepted and put that down on the application. The employer just gave it to me.

I also found the minority comment racist. It says that this minority got their salary because they are a minority. Surely it can't be because they graduated top of their class or because they have mad negotiating skills. I get that all the time about where I went to school. I must have gotten in because I'm a minority, not because I aced my SAT IIs, got a perfect score on my AP test, my incredible writing skills, being the president of a club, or having one of the highest amounts of community service hours served in my graduating class. Nope, can't be.

Anyways, if you are willing to move you should. You can always figure out how to live mustachian in a high COL area. I would negotiate hard because employers see you as fresh. They love the young and nubile. You only get that once.

darkadams00

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Re: Contract negotiations for entry level engineer?
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2015, 08:40:12 PM »
+1 on looking at the total package. Too many grads are hung up on first-year salary $$$. Consider (in no particular order):

1) Location -- Hate the cold? Then not Chicago. Love urbania? Then not suburbia. Like the mountains/beach? Then not Topeka. If the town is locked in (macro-focus), then you can think about accessibility from the neighborhood, i.e. your commute (micro-focus).
2) Benefits -- Some benefits are financial (401k match, insurance, etc). Others are personal (vacation, flexible schedule, sick leave).
3) Company Reputation -- You should be able to determine this prior to your interview. A company earns its reputation over many years. Check local news reports and industry blogs. I would rate a medium-to-large company with high marks better than a small company that I (or anyone else in the public) knew about. A start-up or extremely small company is often a place that provides minimal mentoring although if you are extremely self-motivated and a great self-learner, then you will likely move up faster and develop a broader range of experience more quickly.

Be careful about hard negotiating if you only have one job offer, especially if you're looking in a tight market. Better to be gainfully employed and learning than beating the bushes for another opportunity that might not even be better for you.

Exflyboy

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Re: Contract negotiations for entry level engineer?
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2015, 09:48:38 PM »

If you are a minority with a Master's you could get $85k... Whether your any good or not.

This is coming off as racist.

There are crappy white folk and great white folk in any industry. I can just as easily point to situations in my work history where being white got you promoted over minorities without any justification. Why don't we leave race out of the discussion?

-- Vik

Not intended as a rascist remark at all..This is a statement of fact of what happened in my department (I was the manager). In this Fortune 500 company in Oregon as a minority you would earn on average of 5 to 20k more whether you were proven or not.. of course straight out of college your not proven by default.

We had two minority entry level engineers.. One was quite acceptable and earned $85k.. His white compadre's earned $72k on average.. Is this right?.. No I don't think it is.. I don't care what colour, gender or sexual orientation you are, its unacceptable in my book to pay for tokenism, you should pay for ability and performance. Why should your colour (or any other non performance feature else for that matter) mean that you are paid any differently (higher or lower) to your colleagues.

The second example was a young lady paid $90k and incompetent. I lobbied to have her salary cut to $72k.. i.e to the same level of some seriously talented entry level engineers where she could compete fairly. This was denied of course.

Eventually she got fired so I guess it worked out in the end, but I would rather have kept her and worked with her, rather than have her outrageous salary make her a target, which is what happened.



« Last Edit: March 24, 2015, 11:13:44 PM by Exflyboy »

Cathy

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Re: Contract negotiations for entry level engineer?
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2015, 01:30:30 AM »
... the guy made a face that looked slightly shocked, almost as if saying "good luck with that" ...

This is a very standard negotiation technique that Roger Dawson calls "the flinch". By flinching in response to what your adversary says, you not only lower their expectations, you also encourage them to negotiate against themselves by following up with a "more reasonable" (i.e. smaller) value, before you reveal any information about your position at all. It seems to have worked perfectly here. Your adversary learned information about your position without disclosing anything in return, and also lowered your expectations and thus lowered the amount of money they will need to pay you.

If you want to succeed at this game, you need to understand that the employer's representative negotiating salary with you is your adversary, not your friend, and that everything they are doing is a calculated move designed to get you to accept the job for as low pay as possible, but also leave you thinking you got an amazing deal, so that your relationship with the company starts out a good one.

If you want to play this game at a competitive level, you need to learn the basics by reading Roger Dawson's "Secrets of Power Negotiating". This is basically the canonical textbook on negotiation.

Big Boots Buddha

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Re: Contract negotiations for entry level engineer?
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2015, 04:53:49 AM »
Area definitely plays a part, but $100k in Fort Wayne is worth the equivalent of $147k in San Diego. That $60k San Diego job would be the equivalent of earning $40,588 in Fort Wayne.  That "extra" $100k would get you to FI wayyyy faster!  If you just plan on starting off there, then sure -- go for what you want and grow from there. :) Cost of living can vary wildly, though.

At the risk of saying something wildly un-mustachian, I put a lot of value in quality of life in your early 20's. You only get that time once. I also value optimizing life later, obviously, but I know many people who worked incredibly hard in the first 5-10 years of their careers and regret it now, regardless of financial success.

I think you can do both!

Agree! You are only young and indestructible for a short time. Relish it!

Im from GR. Its alright. If you are making 70k, probably can have a good life. Make sure you are improving yourself and learning more, but keep that work/life balance well on the life side.

I moved to China at 24, spent 5 years learning Chinese, working 10 hours a week (really) with 3 months paid vacation a year. Had a blast. Then the last 5 years Ive been slaving away, but man from 24-29 I did more in those 5 years than most people do their whole life.

I'm a red panda

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Re: Contract negotiations for entry level engineer?
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2015, 06:59:53 AM »


Eventually she got fired so I guess it worked out in the end, but I would rather have kept her and worked with her, rather than have her outrageous salary make her a target, which is what happened.

Kind of impressed she got fired. I've noticed that incompetence often gets promoted.  I can only figure because their hands are then not in the final product so much, and they mess up less "managing" it all (while the other managers actually do the managing.)

jzb11

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Re: Contract negotiations for entry level engineer?
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2015, 07:52:58 AM »
... the guy made a face that looked slightly shocked, almost as if saying "good luck with that" ...

This is a very standard negotiation technique that Roger Dawson calls "the flinch". By flinching in response to what your adversary says, you not only lower their expectations, you also encourage them to negotiate against themselves by following up with a "more reasonable" (i.e. smaller) value, before you reveal any information about your position at all. It seems to have worked perfectly here. Your adversary learned information about your position without disclosing anything in return, and also lowered your expectations and thus lowered the amount of money they will need to pay you.

If you want to succeed at this game, you need to understand that the employer's representative negotiating salary with you is your adversary, not your friend, and that everything they are doing is a calculated move designed to get you to accept the job for as low pay as possible, but also leave you thinking you got an amazing deal, so that your relationship with the company starts out a good one.

If you want to play this game at a competitive level, you need to learn the basics by reading Roger Dawson's "Secrets of Power Negotiating". This is basically the canonical textbook on negotiation.

This, I just negotiated a salary increase. The standard line was "It's not gonna happen" regarding my initial ask. I then tried to negotiate, and they lowballed the hell out of me. So out of spite I said I can't take anything less than my original ask.

And guess what? "It's not gonna happen" happened, and I got what I asked for.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2015, 11:28:49 AM by jzb11 »

I'm a red panda

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Re: Contract negotiations for entry level engineer?
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2015, 08:25:45 AM »
Quote
And guess what? "It's not gonna happened" happened, and I got what I asked for.

I've only had one job where 'it's not gonna happen" actually ended up being true.

The guy even said to me "we can't pay you that, but we are offering you the higher position instead".
So they were trying to offer me a title as compensation (instead of specialist 2, I'd be a specialist 5). 

Um, wait? So you can't pay me, AND you want me to take on a job that requires a lot more work?  Uh, no...
I don't even understand how that was part of the negotiation.  Maybe "we can't pay you that, but we'll give you a job much lower, so at least you won't have much work to do?"


I walked away from them. I was actually pretty shocked, because it was as company that used to have a reputation for paying well.  But while they came up 5k from their initial offer, they were still 30k under what the competitor was offering me (for the specialist 2 level job)- and they knew that when making their 'best and final'.


purplepear

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Re: Contract negotiations for entry level engineer?
« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2015, 11:04:04 AM »
I'm an EE in Texas, 2 years out of college, and $65-70K is reasonable here.

If I would've accepted the first offer I received, I'd have started at $8K less than the company that I chose (who gave me an offer months later). I almost accepted the first offer because I was just so excited to have an offer and it seemed like enough money. Know your value.

My advice:

1) Don't jump the gun and accept an offer too early. Look around. It'll give you more leverage for negotiation.
2) Look for potential growth opportunities at the company. I have friends who started at a similar salary as I did at other companies, but the companies promote slowly and don't give raises frequently. My company gives annual raises and has better promotion potential for new grads, so I moved up quicker and make way more 2 years in.

Erik the Red

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Re: Contract negotiations for entry level engineer?
« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2015, 05:04:52 AM »
I'm a traffic engineer in N. MI, been doing it for 11 years. Here are a few things I'd recommend... A couple are probably reiterated from previous posters.

1) Money is great, but it's not everything. You gotta decide what you want out of a job and what makes you happy in general. If you value your free time and have hobbies to pursue, it's not worth being in a job that makes you miserable for an extra $10k a year -IMO, at least.

2) Ask them what the company work culture is. How many hours a week do they typically see someone in your position working? Does that tend to fluctuate throughout the year? (Keep a poker face when they give you an answer -be ready for any number) If you'll be on salary (i.e. no 1.5 OT pay), then 60+ hours a week for $70k is way different than 40 hours a week for $70k.

3) Before accepting any offer, ask for a tour of the office and to meet your potential coworkers. Read their body language! Do they look haggard, like they're getting worked to death? Are they cheerful and enjoy being there? Is there already a company softball/bowling/hockey team where people make a point to hang out with each other even when not at work? That's usually a good sign.

4) Benefits package is important and should absolutely be considered as part of the total compensation! According to our HR website, mine's a little less than 40% of my total compensation.

5) Do they have a percentage of your salary that they'll automatically put into a 401k for you? Do they do a 401k match above & beyond that?

6) Ask them if there's room for growth/promotion from this position, and what that timeline and path might look like. (I started at $40k, but two years later it was closer to $60k) Ask about future training opportunities. It shows that you are eager and want to learn.

7)A large corporation will have different pros & cons than a small 15 person company will have -depends on what you're looking for.

8) Ask them any other questions that show that you're looking to help that company make money. And listen to what they have to say. Remember that that's what they're looking for, and if they feel you'll bring them profit, then they'll invest in you.

Good luck with all of it! GR is a great area with a lot of good stuff going on. Off topic, but if you like a good burger, try the Broadway Bar. Corner of 6th & Broadway, NW.