Author Topic: Contemplating divorce  (Read 21918 times)

Padonak

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #50 on: March 10, 2018, 07:53:26 PM »
Ok, play this out. You divorce. Youíre now a single mother, retired, raising the kids on your own, with some type of custody. Your funds will get split, so you wonít have 1.4 mil anymore. Are you going back to work or will he need to keep working to still take care of everything if youíre not working?

And now, youíre back on the dating scene, hurrah! Is your new partner FIRED as well? Or did you find an employee guy who hasnít even thought about FIRE and has to work 10-20 years to get his shit together. Or do you want an unemployed guy, no savings, who can enjoy your new RE lifestyle with you?

Or, you could let your husband live his best life, raise healthy kids, hire all the domestic help you want and travel as much as you want. And visit day spas. Endless day spas.
Fully paid off house in HCOL area is likely another couple million. Two STEM ppl making over a half million a year are likely in Silicon Valley, if so community property state. She gets the house, custody, alimony, child support and a big chunk of the 1.5 million in cash.

She's bored, not stupid. And if she's making $250k/year in STEM she can do arithmetic.

Not sure why she's asking strangers for permission to break her vows, but she certainly knows she'll do fine financially. She will definitely wind up with the surplus that hubby had earmarked for mom & dad.

Finally, she's only 30. If she wants another job she can find one. If she wants another guy, that too. (That is, if she hasn't found a new guy already -- her story goes from insane to completely logical if the new guy is already in the picture.)

If any young guys who are considering getting married are reading this thread, they should take notice. Especially those who make good money or are on the path to make good money. There is no benefit to a man to get married. You can have sex without marriage. You can even have children without marriage (something like 50% or babies are born out of wedlock these days).

Um...... what benefits are there for women???
Probably not that many, but I am a man so I haven't thought of that.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #51 on: March 10, 2018, 08:05:02 PM »
Ok, play this out. You divorce. Youíre now a single mother, retired, raising the kids on your own, with some type of custody. Your funds will get split, so you wonít have 1.4 mil anymore. Are you going back to work or will he need to keep working to still take care of everything if youíre not working?

And now, youíre back on the dating scene, hurrah! Is your new partner FIRED as well? Or did you find an employee guy who hasnít even thought about FIRE and has to work 10-20 years to get his shit together. Or do you want an unemployed guy, no savings, who can enjoy your new RE lifestyle with you?

Or, you could let your husband live his best life, raise healthy kids, hire all the domestic help you want and travel as much as you want. And visit day spas. Endless day spas.
Fully paid off house in HCOL area is likely another couple million. Two STEM ppl making over a half million a year are likely in Silicon Valley, if so community property state. She gets the house, custody, alimony, child support and a big chunk of the 1.5 million in cash.

She's bored, not stupid. And if she's making $250k/year in STEM she can do arithmetic.

Not sure why she's asking strangers for permission to break her vows, but she certainly knows she'll do fine financially. She will definitely wind up with the surplus that hubby had earmarked for mom & dad.

Finally, she's only 30. If she wants another job she can find one. If she wants another guy, that too. (That is, if she hasn't found a new guy already -- her story goes from insane to completely logical if the new guy is already in the picture.)

If any young guys who are considering getting married are reading this thread, they should take notice. Especially those who make good money or are on the path to make good money. There is no benefit to a man to get married. You can have sex without marriage. You can even have children without marriage (something like 50% or babies are born out of wedlock these days).

Um...... what benefits are there for women???
Probably not that many, but I am a man so I haven't thought of that.


Hahah. Good, just as long as you're not being sexist and all that! Marriage has a few benefits for anyone!

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #52 on: March 10, 2018, 10:11:57 PM »
Ok, play this out. You divorce. Youíre now a single mother, retired, raising the kids on your own, with some type of custody. Your funds will get split, so you wonít have 1.4 mil anymore. Are you going back to work or will he need to keep working to still take care of everything if youíre not working?

And now, youíre back on the dating scene, hurrah! Is your new partner FIRED as well? Or did you find an employee guy who hasnít even thought about FIRE and has to work 10-20 years to get his shit together. Or do you want an unemployed guy, no savings, who can enjoy your new RE lifestyle with you?

Or, you could let your husband live his best life, raise healthy kids, hire all the domestic help you want and travel as much as you want. And visit day spas. Endless day spas.
Fully paid off house in HCOL area is likely another couple million. Two STEM ppl making over a half million a year are likely in Silicon Valley, if so community property state. She gets the house, custody, alimony, child support and a big chunk of the 1.5 million in cash.

She's bored, not stupid. And if she's making $250k/year in STEM she can do arithmetic.

Not sure why she's asking strangers for permission to break her vows, but she certainly knows she'll do fine financially. She will definitely wind up with the surplus that hubby had earmarked for mom & dad.

Finally, she's only 30. If she wants another job she can find one. If she wants another guy, that too. (That is, if she hasn't found a new guy already -- her story goes from insane to completely logical if the new guy is already in the picture.)

If any young guys who are considering getting married are reading this thread, they should take notice. Especially those who make good money or are on the path to make good money. There is no benefit to a man to get married. You can have sex without marriage. You can even have children without marriage (something like 50% or babies are born out of wedlock these days).

Um...... what benefits are there for women???
Probably not that many, but I am a man so I haven't thought of that.


Hahah. Good, just as long as you're not being sexist and all that! Marriage has a few benefits for anyone!

I think the person was referring to:Ē Fully paid off house in HCOL area is likely another couple million. Two STEM ppl making over a half million a year are likely in Silicon Valley, if so community property state. She gets the house, custody, alimony, child support and a big chunk of the 1.5 million in cash. ď

It would seem she would end up much better than him but still not sure that this is life she had in mind for FIRE?

a-scho

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #53 on: March 11, 2018, 12:13:40 AM »
She's upset because her vision of how FIRE was going to play out, isn't. she thought they would FIRE together, move to a LCOL area, travel. Instead she's  at home doing chores, watching the kids. Well, those can be easily fixed: housecleaner, daycare/preschool. But, she knows that isn't going to really fix FIRE together or traveling issues. so, she stews about her predicament while simultaneously having to watch her husband give huge chunks of money away to his parents(money she doesn't really need, but still cringey).  I know very little about marital property(never married), but wouldn't the money he sends to his parents be considered marital property and in the event of a divorce, she would be entitled to half of what he gave away? She could talk to a family law attorney, maybe put her at ease about all the cash he's giving his family. Or maybe not, i really don't know.


Kyle B

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #54 on: March 11, 2018, 12:34:57 AM »
She's upset because her vision of how FIRE was going to play out, isn't. she thought they would FIRE together, move to a LCOL area, travel. Instead she's  at home doing chores, watching the kids. Well, those can be easily fixed: housecleaner, daycare/preschool. But, she knows that isn't going to really fix FIRE together or traveling issues. so, she stews about her predicament while simultaneously having to watch her husband give huge chunks of money away to his parents(money she doesn't really need, but still cringey).  I know very little about marital property(never married), but wouldn't the money he sends to his parents be considered marital property and in the event of a divorce, she would be entitled to half of what he gave away? She could talk to a family law attorney, maybe put her at ease about all the cash he's giving his family. Or maybe not, i really don't know.
No, she's sick of him. It's not really about FIRE at all. She already FIREd for a year (she called it a "sabbatical" and hated that too, resenting the bit of tidying that was left to her -- and also resents the prospect of getting a maid.) So FIRE is just her cover story for how everything is his "fault."

She's a 30 yo multimillionaire who's angry about how shitty she has it. She wants out and she wants the money & kids too. (And she'll get them.)
« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 12:47:40 AM by Kyle B »

firenow

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #55 on: March 11, 2018, 03:26:45 AM »
OP here.

Wow! So many replies and so many great ones. I'm sorry I was late in answering but due to nature of life, I couldn't do so until now.

First off I'm a lurker and read the forum but don't post much. So those that say I'm a troll, well it's upto you to keep that opinion.

I do love my husband and hence the confusion. I'm a very direct kind of girl who doesn't do well in emotions, so I usually deal with everything logically and non emotionally. But me being in love with my husband is what complicates things since my head says something while the heart says another. My head says it's better to separate our lives or at least our finances so I don't have to deal with inlaws and my husband supporting them even when they don't need it. Also I've been through so much loss (lost parents and grandparents at a young age, lost my godparents and uncle while in university) that I'm very loss averse. I don't know if I make sense but I can't bear to see my husband die because of stress at work. I'd rather be away from him and voluntarily work through the loss myself than have it be sprung on me suddenly.

Two main reasons I want to FIRE with my husband: his health (and my aversion to losing him suddenly) and I really love spending time as family. I don't think that is a big ask. But I get not everyone warms up to FIRE idea and will look into posts where just one spouse FIREs while the other continues working.

Update on my last post: we got promoted to higher stress roles at work. I ended up taking a sabbatical (with pay so my husband is not bankrolling the house expenses) for a year while husband continues his job. I'm at the end of my year long sabbatical but I've found that even with help (someone coming in twice a month for house cleaning), having two young kids involves a lot of mental work and keeping track of so many things. We can afford more help but I find it easier to do myself than look for a suitable person, hire them, manage them etc. Maybe I need to invest my time and efforts in that and take time off again to ease into FIRE myself.

My husband feels he needs to help inlaws because of cultural expectations. He is the oldest and he feels a sense of responsibility to his parents and siblings. He feels bad that his siblings still work while he can retire. There is also a huge pressure on him from his culture and family that a guy should work always and not working is a sign of weakness. He has always helped inlaws but as I said in my OP, it was small amounts. It has increased because we don't need his paycheck and he feels he should give to parents and siblings so they can live as well as he does. He forgets the fact that they squander that too and are back in the same position.

Thanks for the individual counseling idea. I can do it first to analyze what I can do and how to let go of issues I can't control. My husband is against any counseling since his culture places a huge stigma on it. He also doesn't believe in talking things out too much. He is the strong silent type. I agree divorce might be an extreme but I started thinking about it since it's so hard to communicate. And we've got another 50+ years to go. But I'll work harder to communicate before throwing in the towel. Thanks for the suggestions.

For those that say I do it because I have another guy in the lines, want to get married again, etc I should say peace to you but please stop watching too much drama. Neither good for you nor for others.

firenow

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #56 on: March 11, 2018, 03:45:20 AM »
Adding in a few more details, we earn roughly equally and have put in equal amounts of money into all our assets. So yes, even though we'll both do well financially if we decide to separate, it doesn't mean I want to do it tomorrow. My post is contemplating divorce and not going ahead with it. It's more a plea to see what we can do to fix it before going to the nuclear option of divorce.

My vision of FIRE is different and at this point I don't think we can reach that. I'm starting to accept that fact and try to find workarounds. But to say I need to stop thinking about FIRE and fully support my husband without even questioning why he resists it is hard to accept.

Also I don't have a problem giving money to my in-laws (infact we've worked it into our FIRE budget for $2000/month which was their monthly expenses plus some play money two years back) but I have a problem giving away the whole paycheck and my husband insisting to work as a result. He thinks we are not FIRE till he can give an equivalent of his paycheck every month to inlaws (which would put us at a really high FIRE amount). I do understand how important family is and would gladly help if they need it, but his family is doing well and don't need the help. Should I still say 'ok let's compromise your health and our family's happiness for your culture's expectations?'
« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 03:57:29 AM by firenow »

marty998

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #57 on: March 11, 2018, 05:29:30 AM »
Hubby has been indoctrinated well.

Do your in-laws feel guilty for taking the money? Have they encouraged him not to give so much? Do they understand the pressure they are putting on him?

If not, then I have to question their motives. Golden goose being killed and all that.

Linea_Norway

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #58 on: March 11, 2018, 05:33:52 AM »
Thanks for coming back. I understand that you are worried for your spouses health in a high stress job. Could you ask him about his work pressure? And if he admits that it is straning, carefully plant the idea that he could ease into an different low stress position. Or maybe start working parttime in a low stress position.
If his culture doesn't respect men who don't work, that could be problematic for your husband self esteme. Maybe working parttime could be a middle way. And he would make some maybe that would make up for supporting the family.

When he really feels he needs to give away everything to his family to live like you do, you two have a different idea of what if reasonable. Would you consider living in a less luxurious way to lower the standard for the family?
If he doesn't want to change his thought about this, then separate finances, where he first pays his share to you, your children and the household, sounds like a good soluation.

LadyMaWhiskers

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #59 on: March 11, 2018, 07:10:21 AM »
Hi MMM,

My wife and I are getting very close to FIRE, but we keep having fights about money, and I don't understand why. We have done a great job providing for our children, and now that we have taken care of our home, I've decided I really want to show my appreciation to my parents. After all, they are the people responsible for birthing me, feeding me, raising me, clothing me, loving me, and overall ensuring I had the opportunity to live a good life on my own terms. For some reason my wife hates the idea of me helping them enjoy retirement, which seems insane. We have plenty of money(we make $400-500k a year between us), and she could retire now, I just want to help out family, and enjoy the satisfaction of actually demonstrating my appreciation for everything they've done for me. What is more important than family?

She brings up counseling, but that is obviously code for "I want you to change" and she has no intentions of even attempting to see my perspective. What should I do?

And truth be told, I take pride in my work, and my ability to provide for my family. I would not know how to explain to my parent and siblings that instead of earning 250k per year, Iím going to ďdrop outĒ in my thirties. That is so counter t9 my self image.

maizeman

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #60 on: March 11, 2018, 07:34:26 AM »
Hi @firenow, thanks for coming back and answering some peoples questions. However I notice that while you reiterate some of the things which are making you unhappy in your marriage, you don't talk at all about what your life would be like after a divorce, and how the things which bother you would be better. My fear is that you may be in a situation where you've decided things are so bad that something needs to be done. And a divorce is something. Therefore it must be done.

However, your particular case I'm not understanding how post-divorce life will make things better if the things that bother you are having to do all the work around your house yourself, and your husband working for a paycheck he uses for reasons other than supporting his own nuclear family. If you sit down and really think about post-divorce life (not the stuff that is bothering you about the way your life is now but what would be better or make you happier living alone), what parts of it feel better than your current situation?

For those that say I do it because I have another guy in the lines, want to get married again, etc I should say peace to you but please stop watching too much drama. Neither good for you nor for others.

I'm not sure I could have responded to this in such a calm and mature fashion. Good for you.

iris lily

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #61 on: March 11, 2018, 07:46:16 AM »
OP, thanks for that background. I can see your dliemma, but
I also think that your ďawfulizingĒ of the situation (husband dies suddenly, you want to control all such losses due to the extreme losses of people close to you) is entirely YOUR problem and you MUST get counseling for this.

To speak very frankly, it would be a terrible thing for you to jerk your young children out of their home and away from their dad due to YOUR insecurities. Read over your posts and notice how they are absent of concern for your children even though you probably think you are protecting them with this plan to divorce. You aren't.

« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 07:49:01 AM by iris lily »

iris lily

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #62 on: March 11, 2018, 08:50:08 AM »
At the very least, unless this guy is beating you, f#king around on you, or is a drunk layabout, you need to stay with him at least until the children are adults.

That's an interesting proclamation. I would argue that if OP's marriage doesn't make her happy, she's not obligated to remain in it.
A fine sentiment when there are no children involved. I agree, two adults can do whatever they like, whenever. Whatever, who cares.

It is interesting that the OP did choose ths man, then chose to have a baby, then chose to have another, all within his cultural norms and now that another cultural norm has risen up in their life, she wants out.

I wouldnt have married him. Fiscal responsibility and financial security are really really REALLY important to me. The cultural expectation to give inlaws much of my householdís  money would never fly with me and all of the sexy/ luuuurv feelings in the world wouldnt trump that.

OP, I fully support you in your idea that 100% of hubbyís paycheck is for you two TOGETHER to decide how to disburse. This is a situation where compromise is key. I hope you can find the compromise.I hope your inlaws are reasonable people who can understand the conflict of these cultural expectations and the stress that puts on your marriage.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 10:15:30 AM by iris lily »

scantee

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #63 on: March 11, 2018, 09:31:36 AM »
For someone who comes from a culture of supposedly strong familial ties, heís doing a pretty poor job of taking care of his chosen family, you and your kids. The unspoken issue here is that as he is giving all of his money to his parents, he is leaving you to be the sole financial support for your family unit. There would be nothing wrong with that if that were an arrangement you both agreed upon, but he canít claim to care about being a provider if he is not actually providing anything to you and the children.

I would also not be okay with this situation were I in your shoes. Please do go into individual therapy. One thing you might focus on in therapy is setting and enforcing appropriate boundaries. Learning this skill will be incredibly important in helping you address this issue in a constructive manner. What is an appropriate ask in your situation, knowing that perfection isnít possible? How will you communicate your expectations to your husband? What is your personal breaking point at which him not respecting your boundaries means you should consider separation? Your therapist should be able to guide you through answering these questions. Your answers will be your roadmap for how to move forward.

The good news is, I think, you make a crap ton of money and so you really should be able to solve this financial conundrum in a way that is satisfactory to everyone involved. If you go through therapy, develop your boundaries, respectfully communicate those to your husband, repeatedly, and he STILL continues to ignore you wishes, that would indicate a basic disrespect for you on his part. Thats when you might start to consider whet her this relationship can work long term. You really should do that work first though, before catastrophizing and jumping to thoughts of divorce at this early stage.

fuzzy math

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #64 on: March 11, 2018, 10:39:23 AM »
OP, thanks for that background. I can see your dliemma, but
I also think that your ďawfulizingĒ of the situation (husband dies suddenly, you want to control all such losses due to the extreme losses of people close to you) is entirely YOUR problem and you MUST get counseling for this.


I had meant to address this earlier in my suggestion for individual counseling. Unless OP's husband has some extreme condition that would actually indicate an increased chance of dying, i think anxiety seems to be the (warranted from personal experience) cause of these feelings.

OP - how old are your kids? Are you willing to share your DH's cultural background? There are tons of people here in interracial marriages who might be able to provide a bit more advice or experience if they knew where your DH's family was from.

LAGuy

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #65 on: March 11, 2018, 11:20:40 AM »
For someone who comes from a culture of supposedly strong familial ties, heís doing a pretty poor job of taking care of his chosen family, you and your kids.

Is he really though? Early 30's. Paid off house in a HCOL. Over a million in investments. They did all that on her salary did they?

Quote from the OP:

Adding in a few more details, we earn roughly equally and have put in equal amounts of money into all our assets.

To me it sounds like this family has essentially zero money problems. Yet, per the OP they fight about money all the time. I'll give you one guess who's starting those fights. My guess is the poor guy has completely checked out of his miserable home life because his wife is nagging him about money all the time despite having zero problems. He's probably thinking, "What more can I do to make this woman happy. Literally nothing is good enough for her." Given those thoughts, you think this guy wants to leave the office to spend 24 hours 7 days a week with his nag wife? Moreover, if the fights are about money, a typical male response is to think more money will solve the problem. Not exactly a conducive environment for quitting your job for good.

No, she's sick of him. It's not really about FIRE at all. She already FIREd for a year (she called it a "sabbatical" and hated that too, resenting the bit of tidying that was left to her -- and also resents the prospect of getting a maid.) So FIRE is just her cover story for how everything is his "fault."

She's a 30 yo multimillionaire who's angry about how shitty she has it. She wants out and she wants the money & kids too. (And she'll get them.)

I agree with Kyle B 100%. Like a good Mustacian, in the same way that we discuss the best way to handle our taxes for example, she's running the numbers and realizing that divorce is a mighty powerful financial solution that would solve all of her problems in her favor. How can you not contemplate going from being a family of four helping out the in-laws to instead being a family of 3 with an indentured servant?

maizeman

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #66 on: March 11, 2018, 12:45:21 PM »
...she's running the numbers and realizing that divorce is a mighty powerful financial solution that would solve all of her problems in her favor. How can you not contemplate going from being a family of four helping out the in-laws to instead being a family of 3 with an indentured servant?

How does this follow? The OP doesn't talk about any financial problems at all.

It sounds like she'd like her husband to stop working both because she feels like she'd doing a bunch of housework without his help and because she's worried about his health in a high stress job. In addition, it sounds like she's actively opposed to his shipping large sums of money to his parents every month because she sees them as wasting money, but even there it doesn't sound like the problem is any constraint on the amount of money they have for their own nuclear family.

While those may be valid concerns, they don't seem like ones that have financial solutions. They also don't sound like ones divorce will actually address and it may even make some of them worse, but that's a separate discussion.

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #67 on: March 11, 2018, 02:03:17 PM »
First world problems, eh?  OP, thanks for replying. At the root of it is, you want to spend more time with your husband. We all get that and I think that needs to be your focus. The only reason the issue with your in laws is bothering you is because it means your husband has to keep working. Definitely get yourself to counseling because you have to explore your desire to spend time with your husband and the fact that you both arenít, by your own admission, great communicators. You need to work on that because if your end game is achieved, you and the hubs will be spending more time together with you being logical and not communicating well and him being strong and silent. Doesnít seem that fun to me. If youíre honestly getting to the, should we break, then you need to put it all on the line. Tell your husband how your feeling and that you want to fight to keep this. If he cares so much about family, I doubt heíll want to divorce. He has to know that you want/need more of him. You also need to give more of yourself. Youíre each contributing to this. Heís not a bad guy for doing what most people do, work until retirement age. In his mind heís checked all the boxes and heís doing what heís supposed to do. Youíve discovered this great thing and want things different. Itís not all or nothing. Find the middle, and do your part. Be more emotionally available, communicate and empathize. Maybe he works 5 more years and thatís it? Maybe he cuts down to part time work? Whatever is happening, put energy in working with him, thatís what you signed up for.

NathanDrake

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #68 on: March 11, 2018, 02:10:01 PM »
Am I the only one that smell a troll?

Sounds like it.

The math doesnít make any sense (NW vs age vs income vs HCOL area). And I donít know any companies offering a fully paid year long sabbatical.

Rosy

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #69 on: March 11, 2018, 02:18:39 PM »
They had an agreement on how much money he would be sending to his parents and siblings - he has broken that agreement at least twice that we know of.

1. OP stated at first it was a $1K a month
2. Then apparently they had a discussion and he upped it to $2K which she agreed to.

So now he has decided to give them his entire paycheck! OP also stated they (his parents and siblings) have since become used to the golden goose, receiving a free paycheck that from what the OP observed is actually being squandered in the expectation of receiving another paycheck next month.

Her DH is not listening - they have different ideas of how they wish to live their lives.

OP now stated she is in the last throes of her year-long sabbatical (which is paid for by her job - not by DH) and is thinking long and hard about her decision to return to the workforce.

I cannot imagine accepting the fact that my husband has, in essence, decided that his paycheck goes to his parents and siblings and my paycheck goes to our own family the one he is supposed to provide for first.
Even right now - he is living on her money people - without her consent and you don't see this as a problem?! even feel like she is complaining without a good reason? (Sure, she is privileged, so what? her feelings matter!)
She is being honest, the year did not turn out the way she hoped, it happens. She is rethinking her plans and her approach and is faced with DH who blithely ignores her concerns.
Helping out family is one thing and something I am fundamentally in favor of, but this situation is a problem.

I am in Cressida's camp on this one and cultural expectations or not, this goes too far. They both need to communicate and find a compromise. This isn't a money or love problem, this is about fundamentally and steadfast ignoring your spouse's wishes.
You know it is one thing to decide you really don't want to RE, even if your spouse does - but actively giving away your income to family that is not in need is not defendable in my opinion.
She worries about his health and she is still fighting her own demons and anxiety about losing so many people in her young life already. These are not the concerns of a spoilt brat, but the very real concerns of a young woman with two lively children and serious career decisions of her own ahead of her.

 

 

scantee

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #70 on: March 11, 2018, 02:24:39 PM »
Quote
To me it sounds like this family has essentially zero money problems. Yet, per the OP they fight about money all the time. I'll give you one guess who's starting those fights. My guess is the poor guy has completely checked out of his miserable home life because his wife is nagging him about money all the time despite having zero problems. He's probably thinking, "What more can I do to make this woman happy. Literally nothing is good enough for her."

You're projecting pretty hard here dude.

The reality is that her goal to retire early is at odds with his goal to send $10k a month to his family. Both can't happen with their current asset level. Almost certainly they both need to compromise but it sounds like he isn't even willing to discuss it at all. That is a screwed up way to approach a marriage and would rightfully make most emotionally healthy people angry.


LAGuy

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #71 on: March 11, 2018, 02:39:00 PM »
...she's running the numbers and realizing that divorce is a mighty powerful financial solution that would solve all of her problems in her favor. How can you not contemplate going from being a family of four helping out the in-laws to instead being a family of 3 with an indentured servant?

How does this follow? The OP doesn't talk about any financial problems at all.

Sure she does. It's in her very first sentence:

Hi MMM,

My husband and I are this close to FIRE but we've always had fights about money.

Quote
To me it sounds like this family has essentially zero money problems. Yet, per the OP they fight about money all the time. I'll give you one guess who's starting those fights. My guess is the poor guy has completely checked out of his miserable home life because his wife is nagging him about money all the time despite having zero problems. He's probably thinking, "What more can I do to make this woman happy. Literally nothing is good enough for her."

You're projecting pretty hard here dude.

The reality is that her goal to retire early is at odds with his goal to send $10k a month to his family. Both can't happen with their current asset level. Almost certainly they both need to compromise but it sounds like he isn't even willing to discuss it at all. That is a screwed up way to approach a marriage and would rightfully make most emotionally healthy people angry.



Read the first sentence from her original post again. They're essentially FIRE'd, "This close" she says whatever that means. Why does his version of FIRE need to conform to hers? Look at it this way: they're FIRE'd. Other people want to volunteer. Some want to sit on their ass. Some want to take up a hobby. He wants to work and send money to his family. I'm sorry, I don't see where he's done anything that deserves divorce, I don't see how he hasn't provided for his wife and kids, and really I don't see a ton of discussion that needs to happen between the two. She's told him...she wants him to quit his job and he doesn't want to. Imagine if the roles were reversed here and the OP was a man insisting that he wants his wife to quit her job and stay home and care for him and the kids?

Kyle B

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #72 on: March 11, 2018, 02:58:51 PM »
A year ago, she said the following about her husband:

Quote from: firenow
My husband loves his job and the only reason he'd FIRE is because I want to travel and spend time as family.

Interestingly, she's no longer acknowledging that her husband loves his job.  This time, she's pretending the only reason hubby wants to keep working is some kind of weird cultural duty.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 04:44:05 PM by Kyle B »

maizeman

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #73 on: March 11, 2018, 03:16:50 PM »
...she's running the numbers and realizing that divorce is a mighty powerful financial solution that would solve all of her problems in her favor. How can you not contemplate going from being a family of four helping out the in-laws to instead being a family of 3 with an indentured servant?

How does this follow? The OP doesn't talk about any financial problems at all.

Sure she does. It's in her very first sentence:

Hi MMM,

My husband and I are this close to FIRE but we've always had fights about money.

Fighting about money is not the same as having financial problems. Financial problems can be solved simply by having more money.

In this case the problem is that OP and her husband have surplus money (since they are apparently FI or nearly FI yet both make extremely high incomes on top of that), and OP doesn't like that her husband isn't willing to trade some of that surplus money for an early retirement, and doesn't like what he's choosing to do with his half of that pile of surplus money now that it is just piling up.

I have every confidence that if I added an extra million dollars (or hey an extra $100k/year in income) to the picture, their problems would get no better and might be even worse. If anything their relationship would probably be in much better shape if they had less money, because then she wouldn't feel like he could retire early but chose not to, and he wouldn't be sending loads of surplus money to his parents because they wouldn't have a surplus to send.

maizeman

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #74 on: March 11, 2018, 03:23:54 PM »
I cannot imagine accepting the fact that my husband has, in essence, decided that his paycheck goes to his parents and siblings and my paycheck goes to our own family the one he is supposed to provide for first.
Even right now - he is living on her money people - without her consent and you don't see this as a problem?!

OP states that she and her husband are approximately FI. So it would not be correct to say that he is living off of her paycheck. They are both living off of the income from their (mutual) investments, and yet are (each? It wasn't clear to me if her sabbatical was paid or not, apologies if I've missed that detail) receiving rather large paychecks every month. Another supporting detail is that OP is considering FIing herself while her husband continues to work, and send his paycheck off to his extended family, which would not be feasible if he was expecting her to support him and the family while he did so.

I completely agree with you that if they were not essentially FI, and one partner decided unilaterally to spend their entire paycheck on something while expecting the other partner to support both of them, plus their children, that it would be a serious problem.

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #75 on: March 11, 2018, 04:41:08 PM »
I think the OP was very generous in agreeing to give his spouse's family 2k/month.  All his $ would not be cool with me. However, in light of the fact that they have 2 small children I would definitely try individual counseling and working out some kind of financial arrangement that would be a compromise before considering divorce.  Can  you live off the income from the stash if you are not getting paid/working and he is giving all his $ to his family?

firelight

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #76 on: March 11, 2018, 04:54:18 PM »
Woah LAGuy and Kyle. You both are coming down pretty hard on the OP, it's her life her money and her family. In all your posts you keep trying to portray she is an evil multimillionaire out to screw her husband instead of giving her any benefit of doubt. Projecting much?

NathanDrake, I know Intel and PwC have sabbatical programs for a few months with full pay. Maybe OP's company or job or specialization lets her have a year's sabbatical.

OP, you've gotten a strong base of assets and a great family. Explore your fears with individual therapy and see if you can go back to your low stress job while you work things out. Good luck to you and your husband as you work through communication issues. Please don't be scared by people saying you are out to get your husband. That is not the vibe I got from your posts at all.

I see a worried wife who wants to spend more time with her husband and has communication issues to work through. This can and should be solved without divorce if you both put in efforts. Good luck with your efforts.

Cressida

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #77 on: March 11, 2018, 05:28:16 PM »
No, she's sick of him. It's not really about FIRE at all. She already FIREd for a year (she called it a "sabbatical" and hated that too, resenting the bit of tidying that was left to her -- and also resents the prospect of getting a maid.) So FIRE is just her cover story for how everything is his "fault."

She's a 30 yo multimillionaire who's angry about how shitty she has it. She wants out and she wants the money & kids too. (And she'll get them.)

Stretching the truth doesn't strengthen your argument; it does just the opposite.

Cressida

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #78 on: March 11, 2018, 05:31:25 PM »
OK, I have lost patience here.

MRA ideology is not welcome on this board.* You know who you are.


*If you don't believe me, see what happens when you start bullying me for making this statement.

scottish

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #79 on: March 11, 2018, 06:20:47 PM »
MRA = ?   

scantee

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #80 on: March 11, 2018, 06:48:33 PM »
This thread went pear-shaped pretty quick. No one needs to post in these advice threads. If your own personal issues prevent you from being able to provide constructive advice absent of angry name-calling, just stop reading and go find another area of the boards to participate in.

OP: get therapy. Figure out what you really want. Identify where you are willing to compromise. Develop a plan to achieve your goals. Communicate that to your husband continuously and solicit his feedback. After all of that (and that should be a full yearís worth of effort), assess where you relationship is at and decide what comes next.

Cressida

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #81 on: March 11, 2018, 07:59:07 PM »
MRA = ?

Men's Rights Activism. It's an ideology wherein all women are soulless bitchez who use men solely for money and status, and whose value resides solely in their "fuckability."

doneby35

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #82 on: March 11, 2018, 09:11:18 PM »
Are we into suppressing freedom of speech and different views now? bottom line is, some people are going to defend the OP and be on her side AND some people are going to see that she's being ridiculous.
Cressida, your statement on how people should just watch and see what happens when they question your MRA statement, isn't that bullying itself?

Cressida

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #83 on: March 11, 2018, 09:17:19 PM »
Are we into suppressing freedom of speech and different views now?

I haven't seen anyone get moderated yet.


bottom line is, some people are going to defend the OP and be on her side AND some people are going to see that she's being ridiculous.

Cressida, your statement on how people should just watch and see what happens when they question your MRA statement, isn't that bullying itself?

If you report me, we'll find out.

doneby35

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #84 on: March 11, 2018, 09:35:23 PM »
Are we into suppressing freedom of speech and different views now?

I haven't seen anyone get moderated yet.


bottom line is, some people are going to defend the OP and be on her side AND some people are going to see that she's being ridiculous.

Cressida, your statement on how people should just watch and see what happens when they question your MRA statement, isn't that bullying itself?

If you report me, we'll find out.

I'm not into reporting people, I was asking a question, not making threats.

Cressida

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #85 on: March 11, 2018, 09:51:59 PM »
bottom line is, some people are going to defend the OP and be on her side AND some people are going to see that she's being ridiculous.

Cressida, your statement on how people should just watch and see what happens when they question your MRA statement, isn't that bullying itself?

If you report me, we'll find out.

I'm not into reporting people, I was asking a question, not making threats.

Why wouldn't you report me, if you think I'm bullying you? That's what the report button is for. It's there to maintain the level of discourse that we all want to see on this board. Declining to report bad forum behavior means that behavior will go unchecked, and make things worse for everyone.

Linea_Norway

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #86 on: March 12, 2018, 01:26:46 AM »
<...> And I donít know any companies offering a fully paid year long sabbatical.

Here in Norway it is normal for women/parents to get a year paid sabbatical to take care of their newborn (either 80% of a year at 100% salary or 100% of a year at 80% salary or something like that). The OP might live in a country with similar benefits.

I think the OP and her husband should talk about their finances and discuss how much they can afford to give away to his parents and siblings, taking into consideration their plans for the future. For this reason they need to make common plans for the future and see whether then can agree on a future together. Each making their future into their own direction will lead into trouble anyway.

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #87 on: March 12, 2018, 07:56:12 AM »
The child support/spousal support discussion seems to have gone way off the rails since I last popped my head in this thread.  I practice family law and would obviously need to know more, but just so people put down their pitchforks and get back to the topic at hand, here's my two cents.

Not sure what state OP lives in (or whether she even lives in the United States), but generally, the length of the spousal support obligation is largely determined by the duration of the marriage.  OP is only 30, so even assuming she's been married for 10-12 years, she's probably looking at 3-4 years of spousal support.  This is not at all going to be a ticket for life.

Moreover, if either spouse voluntarily abandons his or her employment, then his or her previous income is imputed to them in determining the spousal support and child support calculations.  My guess is that due to the imputation of income, spousal/child support awards will be nowhere near the grave injustice that posters on here are predicting.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #88 on: March 12, 2018, 08:24:09 AM »
My husband feels he needs to help inlaws because of cultural expectations. He is the oldest and he feels a sense of responsibility to his parents and siblings. He feels bad that his siblings still work while he can retire. There is also a huge pressure on him from his culture and family that a guy should work always and not working is a sign of weakness. He has always helped inlaws but as I said in my OP, it was small amounts. It has increased because we don't need his paycheck and he feels he should give to parents and siblings so they can live as well as he does. He forgets the fact that they squander that too and are back in the same position.

WRT to this portion of it, would setting up a trust to provide income for whatever family is currently on your payroll alleviate some of your problems here? It would take a chunk of your stash, but would be a one-time expense on your part, and you could move on with your lives. Your husband could relax knowing he's done his part, and if they squander, that's on them.

ePalmtrees

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #89 on: March 12, 2018, 08:36:22 AM »
MRA = ?

Men's Rights Activism. It's an ideology wherein all women are soulless bitchez who use men solely for money and status, and whose value resides solely in their "fuckability."

There's a great documentary on MRA called The Red Pill on Amazon prime video. It's not at all what you just said, not whatsoever even at all. Not to start a side debate. But you're wrong.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06XGY67WQ

2Birds1Stone

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #90 on: March 12, 2018, 09:45:32 AM »
MRA = ?

Men's Rights Activism. It's an ideology wherein all women are soulless bitchez who use men solely for money and status, and whose value resides solely in their "fuckability."

There's a great documentary on MRA called The Red Pill on Amazon prime video. It's not at all what you just said, not whatsoever even at all. Not to start a side debate. But you're wrong.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06XGY67WQ

Men aren't allowed to publicly advocate for their rights. Something about privilege?

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #91 on: March 12, 2018, 10:01:18 AM »
Men aren't allowed to publicly advocate for their rights. Something about privilege?

Alternatively, men who act like jerks get criticized for acting like jerks.

Full disclosure: I am a man, and think MRA is (generally) thinly veiled insecurity.

2Birds1Stone

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #92 on: March 12, 2018, 10:07:37 AM »
Men aren't allowed to publicly advocate for their rights. Something about privilege?

Alternatively, men people who act like jerks get criticized for acting like jerks.

Full disclosure: I am a man, and think MRA is (generally) thinly veiled insecurity.

whitethunder

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #93 on: March 12, 2018, 10:09:10 AM »
I would advocate against divorce because it depreciates the concept of marriage and family.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #94 on: March 12, 2018, 10:16:07 AM »
Men aren't allowed to publicly advocate for their rights. Something about privilege?

Alternatively, men people who act like jerks get criticized for acting like jerks.

Full disclosure: I am a man, and think MRA is (generally) thinly veiled insecurity.

touche

doneby35

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #95 on: March 12, 2018, 10:22:42 AM »
As a general rule, modern day feminism, which is completely different than first wave feminism and based on tyranny and silencing anyone who has a different view than them, is acceptable, but somehow when men say "hey wait a minute, we have rights too", all of a sudden it's not acceptable and needs to be silenced.


NoStacheOhio

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #96 on: March 12, 2018, 10:31:43 AM »
As a general rule, modern day feminism, which is completely different than first wave feminism and based on tyranny and silencing anyone who has a different view than them, is acceptable, but somehow when men say "hey wait a minute, we have rights too", all of a sudden it's not acceptable and needs to be silenced.

I just don't see any of my rights being threatened by women (or anyone else really) fighting for better treatment/circumstances for themselves. I think the MRA movement also abuses the word "rights." If you're specifically talking about fighting for equitable treatment in family court for good parents who want to be involved, regardless of gender, then I'm somewhat sympathetic. My brother-in-law had to move mountains to get primary custody despite his ex's abusive behavior, drugs, perjury and litany of other things, but his is not a typical situation to begin with.

If we're talking about almost anything else it just doesn't resonate.

doneby35

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #97 on: March 12, 2018, 10:39:16 AM »
As a general rule, modern day feminism, which is completely different than first wave feminism and based on tyranny and silencing anyone who has a different view than them, is acceptable, but somehow when men say "hey wait a minute, we have rights too", all of a sudden it's not acceptable and needs to be silenced.

I just don't see any of my rights being threatened by women (or anyone else really) fighting for better treatment/circumstances for themselves. I think the MRA movement also abuses the word "rights." If you're specifically talking about fighting for equitable treatment in family court for good parents who want to be involved, regardless of gender, then I'm somewhat sympathetic. My brother-in-law had to move mountains to get primary custody despite his ex's abusive behavior, drugs, perjury and litany of other things, but his is not a typical situation to begin with.

If we're talking about almost anything else it just doesn't resonate.

What exactly are women missing these days when it comes to rights? What kind of rights do men have that women don't?

Cressida

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #98 on: March 12, 2018, 10:44:07 AM »
MRA = ?

Men's Rights Activism. It's an ideology wherein all women are soulless bitchez who use men solely for money and status, and whose value resides solely in their "fuckability."

There's a great documentary on MRA called The Red Pill on Amazon prime video. It's not at all what you just said, not whatsoever even at all. Not to start a side debate. But you're wrong.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06XGY67WQ

Thanks, but I'm pretty well informed on this topic.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #99 on: March 12, 2018, 10:47:12 AM »
What exactly are women missing these days when it comes to rights? What kind of rights do men have that women don't?

If you're asking a strictly legal question (implicit in the use of the word "rights"), very little. The "right" to be drafted into military service comes to mind.

If we accept the MRA-aligned use of the word, then there's more there. Social consequences for choosing to keep her own name, being taken seriously at work, being able to exist in public without being harassed, off the top of my head. I'm sure a woman could better answer your question.