Author Topic: Contemplating divorce  (Read 21927 times)

doneby35

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #100 on: March 12, 2018, 11:31:16 AM »
What exactly are women missing these days when it comes to rights? What kind of rights do men have that women don't?

If you're asking a strictly legal question (implicit in the use of the word "rights"), very little. The "right" to be drafted into military service comes to mind.

If we accept the MRA-aligned use of the word, then there's more there. Social consequences for choosing to keep her own name, being taken seriously at work, being able to exist in public without being harassed, off the top of my head. I'm sure a woman could better answer your question.

This should be an open and civil discussion and I'm all for women to be drafted into military service, after all, they are shouting for "equality", but I very much doubt that's what the equal rights complaint is about. Equality of outcome is what new wave feminism is about, in addition to silencing men and women with opposing views. First wave feminists oppose the new wave feminists.
1) Equality of outcome is very much different than equality of opportunities and rights.
2) Silencing men and women with opposing views is equivalent to tyranny and is directly working against freedom of speech.

Carrie

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #101 on: March 12, 2018, 11:36:54 AM »
Quick questions for the OP:
How much money have the in laws contributed to your DH'S education? Did they pay significant sums? I'm guessing so if there aren't any student loans yet earning $250k+per year. 
How much money have the in laws gifted towards the home purchase? (I can't recall, it is paid off, right?) Did they gift a significant down payment?
How much money did the in laws contribute towards a wedding/ honeymoon?

I am guessing if all these are added up we might get an idea of why DH feels obligated to share from his current monetary success.

charis

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #102 on: March 12, 2018, 11:48:45 AM »
What exactly are women missing these days when it comes to rights? What kind of rights do men have that women don't?

If you're asking a strictly legal question (implicit in the use of the word "rights"), very little. The "right" to be drafted into military service comes to mind.

If we accept the MRA-aligned use of the word, then there's more there. Social consequences for choosing to keep her own name, being taken seriously at work, being able to exist in public without being harassed, off the top of my head. I'm sure a woman could better answer your question.

This should be an open and civil discussion and I'm all for women to be drafted into military service, after all, they are shouting for "equality", but I very much doubt that's what the equal rights complaint is about. Equality of outcome is what new wave feminism is about, in addition to silencing men and women with opposing views. First wave feminists oppose the new wave feminists.
1) Equality of outcome is very much different than equality of opportunities and rights.
2) Silencing men and women with opposing views is equivalent to tyranny and is directly working against freedom of speech.

Can you post some cites concerning this "new wave" feminism that you are referring to?  My understanding is that feminism is currently in its fourth wave and focuses on modern sexual discrimination against women, such as sexual harassment and sexual assaulted (ex, #metoo movement), workplace inequality, misogyny, etc; and is distinctive in its use of technology. 

I haven't heard about the silencing of men and women with opposing views.  I've never been silenced by tyrannical feminists, but I have been harassed and assaulted and experienced work place discrimination (particularly as a mother).  Your explanation of feminism is very enlightening.  By the way, there hasn't been a military draft since the 70s - the U.S. military is voluntary. 

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #103 on: March 12, 2018, 12:17:37 PM »
This should be an open and civil discussion and I'm all for women to be drafted into military service, after all, they are shouting for "equality", but I very much doubt that's what the equal rights complaint is about. Equality of outcome is what new wave feminism is about, in addition to silencing men and women with opposing views. First wave feminists oppose the new wave feminists.
1) Equality of outcome is very much different than equality of opportunities and rights.
2) Silencing men and women with opposing views is equivalent to tyranny and is directly working against freedom of speech.

I simply disagree with the red bit, but that's OK.

Freedom of speech strictly refers to government censure. The First Amendment has no bearing on social consequences for someone's exercise of their right to free speech.

Yes, millennials (and the younger, yet unnamed generation) have a tendency to want to silence dissent. It's a little bit worrisome, but it's not really anything new.

doneby35

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #104 on: March 12, 2018, 12:33:29 PM »
What exactly are women missing these days when it comes to rights? What kind of rights do men have that women don't?

If you're asking a strictly legal question (implicit in the use of the word "rights"), very little. The "right" to be drafted into military service comes to mind.

If we accept the MRA-aligned use of the word, then there's more there. Social consequences for choosing to keep her own name, being taken seriously at work, being able to exist in public without being harassed, off the top of my head. I'm sure a woman could better answer your question.

This should be an open and civil discussion and I'm all for women to be drafted into military service, after all, they are shouting for "equality", but I very much doubt that's what the equal rights complaint is about. Equality of outcome is what new wave feminism is about, in addition to silencing men and women with opposing views. First wave feminists oppose the new wave feminists.
1) Equality of outcome is very much different than equality of opportunities and rights.
2) Silencing men and women with opposing views is equivalent to tyranny and is directly working against freedom of speech.

Can you post some cites concerning this "new wave" feminism that you are referring to?  My understanding is that feminism is currently in its fourth wave and focuses on modern sexual discrimination against women, such as sexual harassment and sexual assaulted (ex, #metoo movement), workplace inequality, misogyny, etc; and is distinctive in its use of technology. 

I haven't heard about the silencing of men and women with opposing views.  I've never been silenced by tyrannical feminists, but I have been harassed and assaulted and experienced work place discrimination (particularly as a mother).  Your explanation of feminism is very enlightening.  By the way, there hasn't been a military draft since the 70s - the U.S. military is voluntary.

Exactly, so fourth wave feminism (I was referring to as new wave feminism) is for what you mentioned above, by shutting down anyone who has a different view and calling them sexists, nazis, fascists, you name it.
Regarding what they are for, let's elaborate on a couple of those you mentioned:

1) sexual harassment and assault: There are many legitimate cases of this yes you are correct, but feminists and the #metoo movement are doing a disservice to real victims of assault or rape, and now women are victims of harassment and assault simply because a man made unwanted advances and she did not like it and felt threatened and "disgusted " by it. People with opposing views do not find that to be logical and if the purpose is to create a society where men do not make unwanted advances, it is not going to happen without demonizing basic instincts of males and restricting them from being males. In addition to that, feminists these days entirely dismiss that men experience more rape than women do, if you count prisons.

2) workplace/income inequality: The idea that men get paid more than women because of gender is absurd. The 80 cents per dollar thing is the most ridiculous thing if you actually look into the data. There are many reasons for this. One reason is (and there has been research done on this in scandinavia) when people if left free to make their own decisions without social pressure and choose their own careers, men tend to choose to go into higher paying jobs and women choose to go into lower paying jobs. You can attempt to change that with tremendous social pressure and tyranny, to achieve equality of outcome, but it is most certainly undesirable, especially for women.

We saw one instance in this thread where people with opposing views were threatened to be silenced, and that their views are not tolerated...and this happens everywhere. If that's not tyranny, then I don't know what is.

mm1970

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #105 on: March 12, 2018, 12:42:58 PM »
...she's running the numbers and realizing that divorce is a mighty powerful financial solution that would solve all of her problems in her favor. How can you not contemplate going from being a family of four helping out the in-laws to instead being a family of 3 with an indentured servant?

How does this follow? The OP doesn't talk about any financial problems at all.

It sounds like she'd like her husband to stop working both because she feels like she'd doing a bunch of housework without his help and because she's worried about his health in a high stress job. In addition, it sounds like she's actively opposed to his shipping large sums of money to his parents every month because she sees them as wasting money, but even there it doesn't sound like the problem is any constraint on the amount of money they have for their own nuclear family.

While those may be valid concerns, they don't seem like ones that have financial solutions. They also don't sound like ones divorce will actually address and it may even make some of them worse, but that's a separate discussion.

This.  Maybe other people seem to think she's tired of him. That's now how I read it.  Because:
- I have an acquaintance whose husband had a stroke at 49.  Hard working HEALTHY type-A guy.  He's basically a vegetable now, in LTC in another state.
- I have a friend whose husband had a heart attack at 47.  Three kids 7 and under.  He's fine but he has to work hard to decrease his stress.
- My own spouse has had heart/ chest pains, and needs to take a bit better care of himself.  I make sure he eats well but I can't make him exercise.  Our kids are 11 and 5.  I want him around FOREVER.

What's the point of making all that money if he works himself to the ground and fucking gives it all away!!  Then she ends up as a single parent anyway.

WootWoot

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #106 on: March 12, 2018, 12:44:54 PM »
Interesting to see how many people in this thread said "divorce sucks." I'm in a women's group online and I'm always seeing posts where women say how much happier they are now that they are divorced. Haven't seen any yet that say they were more unhappy.

One of my best friends got divorced several years ago. While they were married, her husband was putting her under pressure to leave the marital home. He offered to rent a flat for her while she searched for a home to buy. Once they were apart, I asked her if she felt a sense of relief that it was over, esp. since he was trying to get her to move quickly. She said "No, there is no sense of relief. I feel very sad that things did not work out."

Food for thought.

Schaefer Light

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #107 on: March 12, 2018, 12:52:46 PM »
Interesting to see how many people in this thread said "divorce sucks." I'm in a women's group online and I'm always seeing posts where women say how much happier they are now that they are divorced. Haven't seen any yet that say they were more unhappy.

I said it sucks, but I'm a man.  Divorce is usually initiated by the woman, so maybe that's why they're happier with it.

mm1970

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #108 on: March 12, 2018, 12:54:04 PM »
What exactly are women missing these days when it comes to rights? What kind of rights do men have that women don't?

If you're asking a strictly legal question (implicit in the use of the word "rights"), very little. The "right" to be drafted into military service comes to mind.

If we accept the MRA-aligned use of the word, then there's more there. Social consequences for choosing to keep her own name, being taken seriously at work, being able to exist in public without being harassed, off the top of my head. I'm sure a woman could better answer your question.

This should be an open and civil discussion and I'm all for women to be drafted into military service, after all, they are shouting for "equality", but I very much doubt that's what the equal rights complaint is about. Equality of outcome is what new wave feminism is about, in addition to silencing men and women with opposing views. First wave feminists oppose the new wave feminists.
1) Equality of outcome is very much different than equality of opportunities and rights.
2) Silencing men and women with opposing views is equivalent to tyranny and is directly working against freedom of speech.

Can you post some cites concerning this "new wave" feminism that you are referring to?  My understanding is that feminism is currently in its fourth wave and focuses on modern sexual discrimination against women, such as sexual harassment and sexual assaulted (ex, #metoo movement), workplace inequality, misogyny, etc; and is distinctive in its use of technology. 

I haven't heard about the silencing of men and women with opposing views.  I've never been silenced by tyrannical feminists, but I have been harassed and assaulted and experienced work place discrimination (particularly as a mother).  Your explanation of feminism is very enlightening.  By the way, there hasn't been a military draft since the 70s - the U.S. military is voluntary.

Exactly, so fourth wave feminism (I was referring to as new wave feminism) is for what you mentioned above, by shutting down anyone who has a different view and calling them sexists, nazis, fascists, you name it.
Regarding what they are for, let's elaborate on a couple of those you mentioned:

1) sexual harassment and assault: There are many legitimate cases of this yes you are correct, but feminists and the #metoo movement are doing a disservice to real victims of assault or rape, and now women are victims of harassment and assault simply because a man made unwanted advances and she did not like it and felt threatened and "disgusted " by it. People with opposing views do not find that to be logical and if the purpose is to create a society where men do not make unwanted advances, it is not going to happen without demonizing basic instincts of males and restricting them from being males. In addition to that, feminists these days entirely dismiss that men experience more rape than women do, if you count prisons.

2) workplace/income inequality: The idea that men get paid more than women because of gender is absurd. The 80 cents per dollar thing is the most ridiculous thing if you actually look into the data. There are many reasons for this. One reason is (and there has been research done on this in scandinavia) when people if left free to make their own decisions without social pressure and choose their own careers, men tend to choose to go into higher paying jobs and women choose to go into lower paying jobs. You can attempt to change that with tremendous social pressure and tyranny, to achieve equality of outcome, but it is most certainly undesirable, especially for women.

We saw one instance in this thread where people with opposing views were threatened to be silenced, and that their views are not tolerated...and this happens everywhere. If that's not tyranny, then I don't know what is.

Jesus Effing Christ.

80 cents on the dollar may or may not be true but there is STILL a gender wage gap, even when correcting for job, title, years of experience, and responsibilities.  All I have to do is go into any industry-specific survey (FYI, my specific industry the gender pay gap is approximately $12,000 a year).

But go ahead and pretend it doesn't exist.

You don't know very many feminists I'm thinking.  If "new wave feminism" is just short for "fringe people who yell very loud".

Midwest

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #109 on: March 12, 2018, 12:56:14 PM »
...she's running the numbers and realizing that divorce is a mighty powerful financial solution that would solve all of her problems in her favor. How can you not contemplate going from being a family of four helping out the in-laws to instead being a family of 3 with an indentured servant?

How does this follow? The OP doesn't talk about any financial problems at all.

It sounds like she'd like her husband to stop working both because she feels like she'd doing a bunch of housework without his help and because she's worried about his health in a high stress job. In addition, it sounds like she's actively opposed to his shipping large sums of money to his parents every month because she sees them as wasting money, but even there it doesn't sound like the problem is any constraint on the amount of money they have for their own nuclear family.

While those may be valid concerns, they don't seem like ones that have financial solutions. They also don't sound like ones divorce will actually address and it may even make some of them worse, but that's a separate discussion.

This.  Maybe other people seem to think she's tired of him. That's now how I read it.  Because:
- I have an acquaintance whose husband had a stroke at 49.  Hard working HEALTHY type-A guy.  He's basically a vegetable now, in LTC in another state.
- I have a friend whose husband had a heart attack at 47.  Three kids 7 and under.  He's fine but he has to work hard to decrease his stress.
- My own spouse has had heart/ chest pains, and needs to take a bit better care of himself.  I make sure he eats well but I can't make him exercise.  Our kids are 11 and 5.  I want him around FOREVER.

What's the point of making all that money if he works himself to the ground and fucking gives it all away!!  Then she ends up as a single parent anyway.

If stress/health is a concern, I can't imagine divorce would be a positive (at least in the short term).  To add, I'm speaking generally rather than to the OP's specific situation.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2018, 01:05:45 PM by Midwest »

doneby35

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #110 on: March 12, 2018, 01:15:44 PM »
What exactly are women missing these days when it comes to rights? What kind of rights do men have that women don't?

If you're asking a strictly legal question (implicit in the use of the word "rights"), very little. The "right" to be drafted into military service comes to mind.

If we accept the MRA-aligned use of the word, then there's more there. Social consequences for choosing to keep her own name, being taken seriously at work, being able to exist in public without being harassed, off the top of my head. I'm sure a woman could better answer your question.

This should be an open and civil discussion and I'm all for women to be drafted into military service, after all, they are shouting for "equality", but I very much doubt that's what the equal rights complaint is about. Equality of outcome is what new wave feminism is about, in addition to silencing men and women with opposing views. First wave feminists oppose the new wave feminists.
1) Equality of outcome is very much different than equality of opportunities and rights.
2) Silencing men and women with opposing views is equivalent to tyranny and is directly working against freedom of speech.

Can you post some cites concerning this "new wave" feminism that you are referring to?  My understanding is that feminism is currently in its fourth wave and focuses on modern sexual discrimination against women, such as sexual harassment and sexual assaulted (ex, #metoo movement), workplace inequality, misogyny, etc; and is distinctive in its use of technology. 

I haven't heard about the silencing of men and women with opposing views.  I've never been silenced by tyrannical feminists, but I have been harassed and assaulted and experienced work place discrimination (particularly as a mother).  Your explanation of feminism is very enlightening.  By the way, there hasn't been a military draft since the 70s - the U.S. military is voluntary.

Exactly, so fourth wave feminism (I was referring to as new wave feminism) is for what you mentioned above, by shutting down anyone who has a different view and calling them sexists, nazis, fascists, you name it.
Regarding what they are for, let's elaborate on a couple of those you mentioned:

1) sexual harassment and assault: There are many legitimate cases of this yes you are correct, but feminists and the #metoo movement are doing a disservice to real victims of assault or rape, and now women are victims of harassment and assault simply because a man made unwanted advances and she did not like it and felt threatened and "disgusted " by it. People with opposing views do not find that to be logical and if the purpose is to create a society where men do not make unwanted advances, it is not going to happen without demonizing basic instincts of males and restricting them from being males. In addition to that, feminists these days entirely dismiss that men experience more rape than women do, if you count prisons.

2) workplace/income inequality: The idea that men get paid more than women because of gender is absurd. The 80 cents per dollar thing is the most ridiculous thing if you actually look into the data. There are many reasons for this. One reason is (and there has been research done on this in scandinavia) when people if left free to make their own decisions without social pressure and choose their own careers, men tend to choose to go into higher paying jobs and women choose to go into lower paying jobs. You can attempt to change that with tremendous social pressure and tyranny, to achieve equality of outcome, but it is most certainly undesirable, especially for women.

We saw one instance in this thread where people with opposing views were threatened to be silenced, and that their views are not tolerated...and this happens everywhere. If that's not tyranny, then I don't know what is.

Jesus Effing Christ.

80 cents on the dollar may or may not be true but there is STILL a gender wage gap, even when correcting for job, title, years of experience, and responsibilities.  All I have to do is go into any industry-specific survey (FYI, my specific industry the gender pay gap is approximately $12,000 a year).

But go ahead and pretend it doesn't exist.

You don't know very many feminists I'm thinking.  If "new wave feminism" is just short for "fringe people who yell very loud".

Are you saying that a man and a woman who apply to the same job, if they have the same level of experience, education, and negotiating exactly the same way, the man will be offered more than the woman? Do you have any evidence to support that? I don't see that anywhere. All I hear is "wage gap exists" only relying on the data provided by the department of labor that says 80 cents per dollar which is pretty useless. If you have any real data that supports your claim, then I would be more than happy to reconsider my view.

And yes I do know feminists, my wife is a feminist and a few of her friends are. I myself support feminism, but I'm talking about first wave feminism, which is entirely different than what the newest wave represents.

charis

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #111 on: March 12, 2018, 01:18:26 PM »
Can you post some cites concerning this "new wave" feminism that you are referring to?  My understanding is that feminism is currently in its fourth wave and focuses on modern sexual discrimination against women, such as sexual harassment and sexual assaulted (ex, #metoo movement), workplace inequality, misogyny, etc; and is distinctive in its use of technology. 

I haven't heard about the silencing of men and women with opposing views.  I've never been silenced by tyrannical feminists, but I have been harassed and assaulted and experienced work place discrimination (particularly as a mother).  Your explanation of feminism is very enlightening.  By the way, there hasn't been a military draft since the 70s - the U.S. military is voluntary.
Exactly, so fourth wave feminism (I was referring to as new wave feminism) is for what you mentioned above, by shutting down anyone who has a different view and calling them sexists, nazis, fascists, you name it.

This is your opinion?  If not, where is the cite to this definition (shutting people down, etc)?  I'm a woman who runs in pretty feminist circles and I'm not familiar with this at all. 

And no, not tolerating sexual harassment doesn't do a disservice to victims of violent or more violent assaults.  They don't cancel each other out, but they are related.

Also, I've never for a second considered dating a man who had made an unwanted sexual advance, but I've dated many men who have never made an unwanted sexual advance.  Are you suggesting that the former group is more "male" than the latter?  Because that is truly absurd.

doneby35

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #112 on: March 12, 2018, 01:30:11 PM »
Can you post some cites concerning this "new wave" feminism that you are referring to?  My understanding is that feminism is currently in its fourth wave and focuses on modern sexual discrimination against women, such as sexual harassment and sexual assaulted (ex, #metoo movement), workplace inequality, misogyny, etc; and is distinctive in its use of technology. 

I haven't heard about the silencing of men and women with opposing views.  I've never been silenced by tyrannical feminists, but I have been harassed and assaulted and experienced work place discrimination (particularly as a mother).  Your explanation of feminism is very enlightening.  By the way, there hasn't been a military draft since the 70s - the U.S. military is voluntary.
Exactly, so fourth wave feminism (I was referring to as new wave feminism) is for what you mentioned above, by shutting down anyone who has a different view and calling them sexists, nazis, fascists, you name it.

This is your opinion?  If not, where is the cite to this definition (shutting people down, etc)?  I'm a woman who runs in pretty feminist circles and I'm not familiar with this at all.

Are you telling me that if a man or woman says that the #metoo movement doesn't make any sense or that the wage gap argument doesn't make any sense, feminists do not accuse the person of being sexist, instead of just having an open debate to understand the opposite side's views? I gave you one instance in this thread where someone mentioned that people with opposing views have MRA ideology and is not tolerated on these forums and see what happens when you question her statement, is that not shutting people down?

Also, unwanted advances does not equal harassment and assault. You just say no to it and move on. I'm not saying unwanted sexual advances are cool nor am I say that men who make them are more masculine than men who don't. I'm saying that you can simply say no to it or tell the guy to go f off and does not require an entire movement.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #113 on: March 12, 2018, 01:38:06 PM »
Are you telling me that if a man or woman says that the #metoo movement doesn't make any sense or that the wage gap argument doesn't make any sense, feminists do not accuse the person of being sexist, instead of just having an open debate to understand the opposite side's views? I gave you one instance in this thread where someone mentioned that people with opposing views have MRA ideology and is not tolerated on these forums and see what happens when you question her statement, is that not shutting people down?

Also, unwanted advances does not equal harassment and assault. You just say no to it and move on. I'm not saying unwanted sexual advances are cool nor am I say that men who make them are more masculine than men who don't. I'm saying that you can simply say no to it or tell the guy to go f off and does not require an entire movement.

I've rarely seen someone calmly say "that doesn't make sense." Like, this is the only time I've ever witnessed it.

As far as unwanted advances, I think most people agree they exist on a spectrum. Simply asking someone out who isn't interested doesn't typically get the #metoo treatment absent some other kind of factor (power dynamic, authority). The bigger problem is that saying no doesn't always work, or gets a belligerent response from the man (i.e. "you're a stuck-up bitch" and worse).

charis

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #114 on: March 12, 2018, 01:57:23 PM »
Can you post some cites concerning this "new wave" feminism that you are referring to?  My understanding is that feminism is currently in its fourth wave and focuses on modern sexual discrimination against women, such as sexual harassment and sexual assaulted (ex, #metoo movement), workplace inequality, misogyny, etc; and is distinctive in its use of technology. 

I haven't heard about the silencing of men and women with opposing views.  I've never been silenced by tyrannical feminists, but I have been harassed and assaulted and experienced work place discrimination (particularly as a mother).  Your explanation of feminism is very enlightening.  By the way, there hasn't been a military draft since the 70s - the U.S. military is voluntary.
Exactly, so fourth wave feminism (I was referring to as new wave feminism) is for what you mentioned above, by shutting down anyone who has a different view and calling them sexists, nazis, fascists, you name it.

This is your opinion?  If not, where is the cite to this definition (shutting people down, etc)?  I'm a woman who runs in pretty feminist circles and I'm not familiar with this at all.

Are you telling me that if a man or woman says that the #metoo movement doesn't make any sense or that the wage gap argument doesn't make any sense, feminists do not accuse the person of being sexist, instead of just having an open debate to understand the opposite side's views? I gave you one instance in this thread where someone mentioned that people with opposing views have MRA ideology and is not tolerated on these forums and see what happens when you question her statement, is that not shutting people down?

Also, unwanted advances does not equal harassment and assault. You just say no to it and move on. I'm not saying unwanted sexual advances are cool nor am I say that men who make them are more masculine than men who don't. I'm saying that you can simply say no to it or tell the guy to go f off and does not require an entire movement.

I don't know how you are defining sexist or sexism.  However, telling a vast number of women (of all ages, races, classes, and nationalities) that their individual experiences and collective experience of frequent, subtle to not-so-subtle degradations, often in their professional lives, are not valid enough for a movement, because it doesn't make sense to you, not a woman, is the thing that doesn't make sense.

doneby35

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #115 on: March 12, 2018, 02:00:23 PM »
It's fine, agree to disagree, everyone is entitled to their different views and opinions.

Lady SA

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #116 on: March 12, 2018, 02:48:09 PM »
Also, unwanted advances does not equal harassment and assault. You just say no to it and move on. I'm not saying unwanted sexual advances are cool nor am I say that men who make them are more masculine than men who don't. I'm saying that you can simply say no to it or tell the guy to go f off and does not require an entire movement.

Well, the reason there is a movement is that "saying no" can have very drastic consequences for women. The best case scenario that women can hope for is what you mention, but countless women experience the opposite end of the spectrum through no fault of their own. I have personally experienced the full gamut of responses when I tell a guy "no thanks" (and I'm married!!) -- many men are, as you say, respectful and simply move on. Others, I've had suddenly get in my face (imagine this as a smaller, weaker woman having a larger, intimidating person in your space-it is all about power imbalance) and call me a bunch of nasty names ("stuck up c**t) just for politely turning them away. I've had a guy completely ignore me, sit down next to me and put his arm heavily around my shoulders and hold me there so I couldn't get away. This one, I actually had to elbow really hard to get him to let go, and then he got very angry and he literally spit on me. I've also turned away someone gently, and then later had that person follow me into a dark parking lot "to talk alone". When I told him I didn't want to talk, he continued to follow me so I ran back inside to ask for an escort to my car.
The problem is, you can't tell what kind of reaction you are going to get. "Is this one nice, or is this one going to follow me home or threaten me?" is always in the back of your mind.

My husband didn't understand why I'm always on guard walking in parking lots. To him, it's just a parking lot and he's just going to the car, nbd. But to me, my head is on a swivel. I'm watching for movement. I'm glancing behind me to see if there is anyone following me. I have my keys out, and I check my back seat before I get in the car. Basically, my husband just walks to the car, while I am protecting myself from being raped. That is the difference.

So yeah, it would be amazing if every man was respectful and actually listened to us when we "just say no". But in reality, it doesn't happen for far too many people. THAT is why there is an entire movement. Too often, women just existing means being harassed and intimidated.

Anyway, I'm sorry to have contributed to the side track that this thread has gone off. Hopefully we can get back to the OP. Just wanted to clear up that "just saying no" isn't so simple.

edit: and this doesn't include situations in the workplace--what are you supposed to do when it's your boss or other authority who is making a pass at you? When there is so much room for retaliation, black-listing, affecting your reputation, it is a very difficult thing to reject someone who has power over you. I haven't experienced that, thank goodness, but it really puts some women between a rock and a hard place: "do I say no and deal with the potential retaliation (being fired, demoted, duties removed, bad reviews, etc) or do I ignore it and still put food on the table?"
« Last Edit: March 12, 2018, 02:56:17 PM by Lady SA »

Cressida

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #117 on: March 12, 2018, 03:29:33 PM »
I gave you one instance in this thread where someone mentioned that people with opposing views have MRA ideology and is not tolerated on these forums and see what happens when you question her statement, is that not shutting people down?

That's not what I said. I said, see what happens if you bully me over my statement. Which, yes, would get you shut down, because it's against forum rules.

Cressida

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #118 on: March 12, 2018, 03:38:35 PM »
(note: this is not entirely serious, but I hope it helps clear things up)

First wave: voting rights
Second wave: employment rights
Third wave: sex-positivity, empowerment, "I choose my choice"
Fourth wave: beats me, I think it's made up

babystache89

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #119 on: March 12, 2018, 03:39:03 PM »
Holy crap the male posters in this thread are making me absurdly thankful for my (very respectful feminist) boyfriend. Yikes! 

OP: Everyone goes through rough patches and you should certainly try your best to work through your issues with your husband. That being said, if you really make an effort, remain at an impasse, and simply are not happy in your marriage, then I think divorce makes complete sense. Life really is too short to be unhappy...And just to add another (admittedly anecdotal) data point, all of my female friends who've gotten divorced have been MUCH happier post divorce. 
« Last Edit: March 12, 2018, 03:47:38 PM by babystache89 »

FireHiker

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #120 on: March 12, 2018, 04:59:11 PM »
Are you saying that a man and a woman who apply to the same job, if they have the same level of experience, education, and negotiating exactly the same way, the man will be offered more than the woman? Do you have any evidence to support that? I don't see that anywhere. All I hear is "wage gap exists" only relying on the data provided by the department of labor that says 80 cents per dollar which is pretty useless. If you have any real data that supports your claim, then I would be more than happy to reconsider my view.

My personal experience is currently 78 cents per dollar compared to equally qualified men within my workplace, and yes, I have seen the actual numbers. My current supervisor has tried to rectify it to a certain extent; it used to be worse. I have seen a fair amount of wage data within my division on proposals, and yes, the wage gap male vs. female, equally qualified, is unfortunately very real here. My field is engineering, specifically electrical, although the data I have seen also covers management, mechanical engineering, software engineering.

To the OP though, I wish you the best of luck. I would very much not be okay supporting the in-laws' lifestyle as you have described (covering basic needs is different perhaps). I hope you can find a middle ground; your original concession of contributing 2k per month to them indefinitely in FIRE is exceedingly generous!

NoraLenderbee

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #121 on: March 12, 2018, 05:31:51 PM »
At the very least, unless this guy is beating you, f#king around on you, or is a drunk layabout, you need to stay with him at least until the children are adults.

That's an interesting proclamation. I would argue that if OP's marriage doesn't make her happy, she's not obligated to remain in it.

Yes, except she has no valid reasons to not be happy and is complaining about the husband wanting to work to take care of his parents and siblings, and complaining about household chores where the husband is working full time and she just wants to stay home due to FIRE.

I would not be comfortable making that judgment about another person.

We are all reading the OP's post, and from what she provided in the post, no valid reasons for contemplating divorce, you can keep defending her, but she's wrong based on what she's complaining about in her post, plain and simple.

Cressida wrote in https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/contemplating-divorce/msg1927784/#msg1927784 :

Quote
I think it's worth reiterating that OP has stated that she doesn't like a thing her DH is doing, and her DH is continuing to do it with zero regard for OP's opinion.

But keeping telling us there are no VALID reasons to be unhappy, mansplainer.

CestMoi

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #122 on: March 12, 2018, 08:16:28 PM »
As a general rule, modern day feminism, which is completely different than first wave feminism and based on tyranny and silencing anyone who has a different view than them, is acceptable, but somehow when men say "hey wait a minute, we have rights too", all of a sudden it's not acceptable and needs to be silenced.

-Not true. This isn't what *any* wave of feminism is about.

Dicey

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #123 on: March 13, 2018, 06:59:59 AM »
Hmmm, interesting discussion. I wonder if @firenow is paying any attention.

iris lily

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #124 on: March 13, 2018, 07:42:23 AM »
Hmmm, interesting discussion. I wonder if @firenow is paying any attention.
why would she?

mm1970

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #125 on: March 13, 2018, 10:11:56 AM »
Quote
Are you saying that a man and a woman who apply to the same job, if they have the same level of experience, education, and negotiating exactly the same way, the man will be offered more than the woman? Do you have any evidence to support that? I don't see that anywhere. All I hear is "wage gap exists" only relying on the data provided by the department of labor that says 80 cents per dollar which is pretty useless. If you have any real data that supports your claim, then I would be more than happy to reconsider my view.

And yes I do know feminists, my wife is a feminist and a few of her friends are. I myself support feminism, but I'm talking about first wave feminism, which is entirely different than what the newest wave represents.

Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying.

It's shown, regularly, through simple industry surveys of salaries by level of education, years of experience, and job title.

And also, as I was involved in hiring senior engineers for awhile I SAW IT HAPPEN. 
- The women were offered less than the men.
- One woman looked at that offer and said "no thanks".
- Then we went on to hire a man.  At more than we'd offered her.
- He was a complete shitshow (could talk a big game, but couldn't deliver)
- He was laid off by a new boss once new boss realized that my group and I were doing most of his job.
- THEN we went back to this woman and offered her the job at more money.
- She took it, yay!
- But it was still less than the next (male) engineer we hired, by about $15k a year.
- Even though she had more experience.
- Even though new male engineer sucked at his job and the boss tried to lay him off TWICE (but he had buddies in upper mgt, so they promoted him instead, whee!)

Lather, rinse, repeat with the next two engineers (one female, fantastic, paid about $15k less than the male who couldn't get the job done.)

It's all out there.  The info is there, the studies are there, the statistics are there.  Heck, in engineering the pay gap starts in year TWO.

crispy

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #126 on: March 13, 2018, 05:18:52 PM »
Quote
Are you saying that a man and a woman who apply to the same job, if they have the same level of experience, education, and negotiating exactly the same way, the man will be offered more than the woman? Do you have any evidence to support that? I don't see that anywhere. All I hear is "wage gap exists" only relying on the data provided by the department of labor that says 80 cents per dollar which is pretty useless. If you have any real data that supports your claim, then I would be more than happy to reconsider my view.

And yes I do know feminists, my wife is a feminist and a few of her friends are. I myself support feminism, but I'm talking about first wave feminism, which is entirely different than what the newest wave represents.

Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying.

It's shown, regularly, through simple industry surveys of salaries by level of education, years of experience, and job title.

And also, as I was involved in hiring senior engineers for awhile I SAW IT HAPPEN. 
- The women were offered less than the men.
- One woman looked at that offer and said "no thanks".
- Then we went on to hire a man.  At more than we'd offered her.
- He was a complete shitshow (could talk a big game, but couldn't deliver)
- He was laid off by a new boss once new boss realized that my group and I were doing most of his job.
- THEN we went back to this woman and offered her the job at more money.
- She took it, yay!
- But it was still less than the next (male) engineer we hired, by about $15k a year.
- Even though she had more experience.
- Even though new male engineer sucked at his job and the boss tried to lay him off TWICE (but he had buddies in upper mgt, so they promoted him instead, whee!)

Lather, rinse, repeat with the next two engineers (one female, fantastic, paid about $15k less than the male who couldn't get the job done.)

It's all out there.  The info is there, the studies are there, the statistics are there.  Heck, in engineering the pay gap starts in year TWO.

I have personally experienced it. My former workplace hired a younger man with far less experience than me in the same role and paid him more than me...and he didn't even negotiate!  I honestly hit the roof. I did point out that I would have a fantastic case if I wanted to pursue it since we had the exact job title and responsibilities (supposedly since he didn't do much)...the only reason I could see was that he was a younger male and I was a female over the age of 40. I did get a raise, but I shouldn't have had to what I did to get equal pay. Even worse, he flamed out in less than four months.

2Birds1Stone

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #127 on: March 13, 2018, 06:30:51 PM »
Quote
Are you saying that a man and a woman who apply to the same job, if they have the same level of experience, education, and negotiating exactly the same way, the man will be offered more than the woman? Do you have any evidence to support that? I don't see that anywhere. All I hear is "wage gap exists" only relying on the data provided by the department of labor that says 80 cents per dollar which is pretty useless. If you have any real data that supports your claim, then I would be more than happy to reconsider my view.

And yes I do know feminists, my wife is a feminist and a few of her friends are. I myself support feminism, but I'm talking about first wave feminism, which is entirely different than what the newest wave represents.

Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying.

It's shown, regularly, through simple industry surveys of salaries by level of education, years of experience, and job title.

And also, as I was involved in hiring senior engineers for awhile I SAW IT HAPPEN. 
- The women were offered less than the men.
- One woman looked at that offer and said "no thanks".
- Then we went on to hire a man.  At more than we'd offered her.
- He was a complete shitshow (could talk a big game, but couldn't deliver)
- He was laid off by a new boss once new boss realized that my group and I were doing most of his job.
- THEN we went back to this woman and offered her the job at more money.
- She took it, yay!
- But it was still less than the next (male) engineer we hired, by about $15k a year.
- Even though she had more experience.
- Even though new male engineer sucked at his job and the boss tried to lay him off TWICE (but he had buddies in upper mgt, so they promoted him instead, whee!)

Lather, rinse, repeat with the next two engineers (one female, fantastic, paid about $15k less than the male who couldn't get the job done.)

It's all out there.  The info is there, the studies are there, the statistics are there.  Heck, in engineering the pay gap starts in year TWO.

I have personally experienced it. My former workplace hired a younger man with far less experience than me in the same role and paid him more than me...and he didn't even negotiate!  I honestly hit the roof. I did point out that I would have a fantastic case if I wanted to pursue it since we had the exact job title and responsibilities (supposedly since he didn't do much)...the only reason I could see was that he was a younger male and I was a female over the age of 40. I did get a raise, but I shouldn't have had to what I did to get equal pay. Even worse, he flamed out in less than four months.

Are salaries public info at your place of work?

Comparison is the thief of joy, maybe we should swim in our own lane and worry about ourselves.

hops

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #128 on: March 13, 2018, 07:07:06 PM »
I have no marital advice for someone in OP's shoes beyond the communication and therapy (individual and joint) suggestions that others have already made. But I had to chime in to say that dismissing concerns about unequal pay between the sexes with "comparison is the thief of joy" is the most unintentionally hilarious thing I've ever read here.

There's some discussion in this article about the ways in which transgender men were treated in the workplace both as women and later as men. It was interesting, and happens to mirror the experiences of the trans men I know:

http://time.com/transgender-men-sexism/


crispy

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #129 on: March 13, 2018, 07:57:38 PM »
Quote
Are you saying that a man and a woman who apply to the same job, if they have the same level of experience, education, and negotiating exactly the same way, the man will be offered more than the woman? Do you have any evidence to support that? I don't see that anywhere. All I hear is "wage gap exists" only relying on the data provided by the department of labor that says 80 cents per dollar which is pretty useless. If you have any real data that supports your claim, then I would be more than happy to reconsider my view.

And yes I do know feminists, my wife is a feminist and a few of her friends are. I myself support feminism, but I'm talking about first wave feminism, which is entirely different than what the newest wave represents.

Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying.

It's shown, regularly, through simple industry surveys of salaries by level of education, years of experience, and job title.

And also, as I was involved in hiring senior engineers for awhile I SAW IT HAPPEN. 
- The women were offered less than the men.
- One woman looked at that offer and said "no thanks".
- Then we went on to hire a man.  At more than we'd offered her.
- He was a complete shitshow (could talk a big game, but couldn't deliver)
- He was laid off by a new boss once new boss realized that my group and I were doing most of his job.
- THEN we went back to this woman and offered her the job at more money.
- She took it, yay!
- But it was still less than the next (male) engineer we hired, by about $15k a year.
- Even though she had more experience.
- Even though new male engineer sucked at his job and the boss tried to lay him off TWICE (but he had buddies in upper mgt, so they promoted him instead, whee!)

Lather, rinse, repeat with the next two engineers (one female, fantastic, paid about $15k less than the male who couldn't get the job done.)

It's all out there.  The info is there, the studies are there, the statistics are there.  Heck, in engineering the pay gap starts in year TWO.

I have personally experienced it. My former workplace hired a younger man with far less experience than me in the same role and paid him more than me...and he didn't even negotiate!  I honestly hit the roof. I did point out that I would have a fantastic case if I wanted to pursue it since we had the exact job title and responsibilities (supposedly since he didn't do much)...the only reason I could see was that he was a younger male and I was a female over the age of 40. I did get a raise, but I shouldn't have had to what I did to get equal pay. Even worse, he flamed out in less than four months.

Are salaries public info at your place of work?

Comparison is the thief of joy, maybe we should swim in our own lane and worry about ourselves.

Yep, it was a government job so it is public record. Being treated unfairly is a bigger thief of joy than comparison, and swimming in my own lane would have left me screwed.  The point of having public salaries is to ensure transparency, fiscal responsibility, and fairness. There is another male who made far more than me who had a lot more experience and longevity so I had no issue with him. Being paid less than someone who had far less experience and no longevity was a slap off the face...and his work product sucked to boot. When I pointed out the discrepancy, there wasn't even an excuse made or reason given because they knew they were in the wrong. Intent vs. Impact.  I refuse to feel bad for trying to right a wrong.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2018, 07:59:12 PM by crispy »

crispy

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #130 on: March 13, 2018, 08:08:52 PM »
BTW, sorry for derailing this thread even more.

OP, I know you said your husband wouldn't consider counseling, but I bet he would reconsider if he knew you were considering divorce. He probably knows you don't like the current situation, but I doubt if he realizes the depth of your emotions or understands how much this situation upsets you. Don't threaten him with divorce to get what you want but be honest about what you are thinking and ask him to work with you to fix what is wrong.

mm1970

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #131 on: March 14, 2018, 10:38:57 AM »
Quote
Are you saying that a man and a woman who apply to the same job, if they have the same level of experience, education, and negotiating exactly the same way, the man will be offered more than the woman? Do you have any evidence to support that? I don't see that anywhere. All I hear is "wage gap exists" only relying on the data provided by the department of labor that says 80 cents per dollar which is pretty useless. If you have any real data that supports your claim, then I would be more than happy to reconsider my view.

And yes I do know feminists, my wife is a feminist and a few of her friends are. I myself support feminism, but I'm talking about first wave feminism, which is entirely different than what the newest wave represents.

Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying.

It's shown, regularly, through simple industry surveys of salaries by level of education, years of experience, and job title.

And also, as I was involved in hiring senior engineers for awhile I SAW IT HAPPEN. 
- The women were offered less than the men.
- One woman looked at that offer and said "no thanks".
- Then we went on to hire a man.  At more than we'd offered her.
- He was a complete shitshow (could talk a big game, but couldn't deliver)
- He was laid off by a new boss once new boss realized that my group and I were doing most of his job.
- THEN we went back to this woman and offered her the job at more money.
- She took it, yay!
- But it was still less than the next (male) engineer we hired, by about $15k a year.
- Even though she had more experience.
- Even though new male engineer sucked at his job and the boss tried to lay him off TWICE (but he had buddies in upper mgt, so they promoted him instead, whee!)

Lather, rinse, repeat with the next two engineers (one female, fantastic, paid about $15k less than the male who couldn't get the job done.)

It's all out there.  The info is there, the studies are there, the statistics are there.  Heck, in engineering the pay gap starts in year TWO.

I have personally experienced it. My former workplace hired a younger man with far less experience than me in the same role and paid him more than me...and he didn't even negotiate!  I honestly hit the roof. I did point out that I would have a fantastic case if I wanted to pursue it since we had the exact job title and responsibilities (supposedly since he didn't do much)...the only reason I could see was that he was a younger male and I was a female over the age of 40. I did get a raise, but I shouldn't have had to what I did to get equal pay. Even worse, he flamed out in less than four months.

Are salaries public info at your place of work?

Comparison is the thief of joy, maybe we should swim in our own lane and worry about ourselves.
Salaries not public, but remember I was in management at the time, and some of these folks worked for me, so I know what they were paid.

Anyone who says "Comparison is the thief of joy" hasn't experienced "thief of joy" that comes from watching a slacker with less experience get paid $30k more that you, and watch that happen for years and years.

Take a 25% paycut for 5 years for doing the same job.  Then come talk to me.

2Birds1Stone

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #132 on: March 14, 2018, 10:46:38 AM »
That's rough.

405programmer

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #133 on: March 14, 2018, 11:59:24 AM »
Just thought I'd throw my own anecdotes at this thread. On the wage gap, I've known female co-workers who've made more money, less money, and the same amount of money as I did. The ones who made more or the same tended to be the exception in my sample size of about 12. While I've definitely met feminists I would consider crazy I find that I meet more respectful feminists than I do MRA. Definitely doesn't mean MRA are all crazy. Just means I don't know very many who are laid back enough to discuss something like this.

As for the divorce questions, I was a child of divorced parents and honestly it's not a big deal IF AND ONLY IF the parents refrain from bad mouthing each other. I have a great relationship with both my parents now but good lord they LOVED talking shit on the other while I was growing up. Getting divorced or staying married shouldn't be all about the kids. It's important to understand the impacts that divorce can have but almost all of them can be mitigated by respectful communication. If a partner is unwilling to communicate then it's 100% better for them to be unwilling to communicate as a co-parent than as a spouse.

neo von retorch

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #134 on: March 14, 2018, 12:05:24 PM »
Dicey draws in a deep breath...

I was going to post a reply to this post, but decided to do a little research. Firenow has posted two missives in a year's time. They have replied to input exactly zero times. They state they have enough to FIRE. I respectfully suggest that there are plenty of others seeking help in these forums. Assisting them might be better use of everyone's time. I think firenow will figure out her own stuff in her own time.

Everyone read the above before replying!!

MayDay

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Re: Contemplating divorce
« Reply #135 on: March 14, 2018, 08:11:26 PM »
Just thought I'd throw my own anecdotes at this thread. On the wage gap, I've known female co-workers who've made more money, less money, and the same amount of money as I did. The ones who made more or the same tended to be the exception in my sample size of about 12. While I've definitely met feminists I would consider crazy I find that I meet more respectful feminists than I do MRA. Definitely doesn't mean MRA are all crazy. Just means I don't know very many who are laid back enough to discuss something like this.

As for the divorce questions, I was a child of divorced parents and honestly it's not a big deal IF AND ONLY IF the parents refrain from bad mouthing each other. I have a great relationship with both my parents now but good lord they LOVED talking shit on the other while I was growing up. Getting divorced or staying married shouldn't be all about the kids. It's important to understand the impacts that divorce can have but almost all of them can be mitigated by respectful communication. If a partner is unwilling to communicate then it's 100% better for them to be unwilling to communicate as a co-parent than as a spouse.

Yah, I could beat the horse about women's salaries and feminism, but if people reading this don't already see the MRA's from the.... not, well, lost cause.

This is a really important point though.

Divorce is hard, but it isn't always harder or worse or trauamtic for children, or or or.

So many people (and I believe studies back this up but I'm not volunteering to go find them) are happier.  So many adults report being happier once their miserable parents divorced.  So many more people divorce before they get to the point of hating each other, and maintain a civil coparenting relationship.

I get that divorce is sometimes financially devastating, but that is not the case here.