Author Topic: Comprehensive and collision auto insurance  (Read 3348 times)

caracarn

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Comprehensive and collision auto insurance
« on: October 07, 2022, 03:11:32 PM »
So the topics I found were from 2013 and since the forum suggested I start a new topic since they were so old doing so.

I've read the feedback there and it seems to align with what I have found and what I am thinking but wanted to get opinions of those here as I value them for financial topics like this.

We have a 2015 Hyundai Sonata, 2011 Toyota Prius and 2007 Toyota Corolla.   We have comp and collision on all of them.

Recently I was thinking if it was time to drop that on the two oldest cars given that they are over 10 years old at this time (they were both bought used in the last 4 years so we've not owned them the whole time).   The total cost between both cars is $178.50 against $1,047 every six months, so about 15% of the cost of the insurance. 

While we bought both in cash and could do so again, the basic math seems to lean almost heavily towards keeping the coverages however as even the Corolla is still worth $5,000 and the $160 every year for that could be paid for the next 10 years and still only total $1,600 against a possible return of $4,000 (I have a $1,000 deductible).   We still have two young drivers (20 and 18, with the 18 year old having his license for less than two months as I write this, and the 20 year old did not get hers until she was 19 either) so highly likely that something will occur to that car.  We've had four other kids go through the  "kid car" and every single one of them has had an accident at some point so the odds seems to be likely these two will not miss out on that rite of passage.   

Every calculation I have found on line seems to say if you take what the car is worth, and take away your deductible and what you pay for comp and collision if it is not negative then keep the coverage.   I seem to likely be in that spot for many years to come, but my financial side wrestles with the fact that a 15 year old car still makes sense to have full coverage.  However, math is pretty factual so I also do not want to be the fool who goes against it when if they totaled the 2007 Corolla today that calculation is $5,000--$1,000-$0 or $3,920.    So even though I can afford to replace it in cash with a $10,000 car would I not be a fool to walk away from the insurance company giving me nearly 4,000 dollars by just paying then 80?   

The math is far more favorable for the other cars as the Sonata is worth about $7,200 and the Prius is $11,000 (guess those Toyota's do retain their value huh?)   So bottom line is it seems like if I could save over $300 a year I should look at it but in this case it also seem like this expense is worth it to offset the realities of risk.   If it was just my wife and I perhaps the calculus would be different because it is easier to assume any accident will not be our fault as we are very safe, but the other risks like trees, deer and such are not controlled by our driving style, so that seems to need to be a factor too. 

Input?

Car Jack

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Re: Comprehensive and collision auto insurance
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2022, 04:38:02 PM »
Separate collision and comp.  Dropping collision is sort of a "meh".  Sure, if the car is as old as yours and if the cost is too high.  Although $160 is a big nothing.  If it were like on my car that my youngest son drives where collision alone costs $700, it might be more worth it.  I haven't dropped it and said son just had another accident.

Comp I would always keep.  Why?  Windshield.  I don't know what a windshield in your cars might cost, but there are many, non-expensive cars out there where windshield replacement costs $1200.  So I always keep comp with zero deductible.

It always depends on the cost.  I've got a 14 Wrangler Unlimited that costs me $295 for $500k liability, comp, collision, extra uninsured coverage....everything.  Would I drop comp/collision to save $38?  Uh...no.

RWD

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Re: Comprehensive and collision auto insurance
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2022, 05:25:54 PM »
Have you played around with raising the deductibles to $2k? Depends how much it saves on the premium whether it's worth it.


So I always keep comp with zero deductible.
Typically you can have a $0 deductible for glass and have the rest of comprehensive have a more normal deductible. Maybe that's what you meant?

yachi

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Re: Comprehensive and collision auto insurance
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2022, 08:56:51 AM »
would I not be a fool to walk away from the insurance company giving me nearly 4,000 dollars by just paying then 80?   

OK then, would you be a fool to walk away from a lottery giving you nearly $10,000,000 by just paying them $2?

You're giving up the *very real* $80 for a *chance* at $4,000 if you completely total your vehicle in the next 6 months.  Your insurance company has included a number of figures in the cost their charging you:
1) their return on the money  - most insurance places break even before considering what they make on float (float is the money you pay them, that they hold until they need to pay it out to you)
2) the average costs of repairs to your model vehicle - independent of the value of the vehicle, some cost more to repair than others due to more complicated designs, availability of spare parts, or other concerns.  On a corolla like this, I'd be surprised if you can find a repair that costs more than your deductible, but wouldn't total the car, with means you're on the hook for everything except a total replacement.
3) the cost a full replacement of your vehicle.
4) the driver safety rating of the drivers (or somewhat inversely the probability of this car being wrecked)

they've combined all these things, and determined $80 is the right cost for this policy that would result in a sort of break even.

Of course It's not worth it to pay anything for a policy with a $5,000 deductible on a car worth $4,000.  But generally insurance companies won't have policies like this.

In my mind, it's always worth dropping these to self-insure if you can easily come up with the money.  But keep in mind if you'd be angrier to your children if they wreck a insured vs an uninsured car.

I've got a 14 Wrangler Unlimited that costs me $295 for $500k liability, comp, collision, extra uninsured coverage....everything.  Would I drop comp/collision to save $38?  Uh...no.

$500K is significantly above the limits required for an umbrella liability policy.  You might want to look at lowering your car liability to $350K, while adding a $1M Umbrella Liability policy.  You might come out even on the costs, but gain a policy that would cover liability on your house.

caracarn

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Re: Comprehensive and collision auto insurance
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2022, 11:17:47 AM »
So on the last point, every carrier I have ever had required you to carry the highest coverage they had (even if it was $500K) on auto to purchase an umbrella policy.   My current carrier Allstate is like that as well, but I can do 250/500/100 which is their highest.

On repairs, I have found (through 4 kids doing damage to various cars) that the body panels can get expensive fast.    Typically you cannot touch a panel for less than $1,000 when cost and labor are considered.   And it's very rare that only one part is damaged so you can almost assume the repair will be $2,000.    The Corolla may the most likely suspect given it is only worth $5,000,so yes hitting that sweet spot of $1,500 to $4,500 (I think if it gets that close they'll just total that) is getting to be a smaller and smaller target.   On the Prius that is still showing a KBB value exceeding $11K might be less likely.   If nothing else in another 1-2 years the Corolla math becomes smaller and when it drops to $4K or so might be the time when it is better.  With cars getting more expensive as new ones are harder to come by not sure I could ever again find the deal with did when we bought the 2007 Corolla in 2019 with 97K miles on it for $5K. 

Certainly been very helpful comments to think this through, so thanks and hope to see some more.

seattlecyclone

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Re: Comprehensive and collision auto insurance
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2022, 11:36:17 AM »
The expected value of buying insurance will essentially never be positive. In other words, you should expect that over your lifetime you'll probably spend more on premiums than you'll get back from claims. The reason to buy insurance is to protect against downside risks. If replacing your car out of pocket would make a noticeable dent in your net worth you should probably insure it. If not, the math is generally behind accepting the fact that you'll need to buy a replacement car sometimes and investing the $160 to help pay for it when the time comes.

yachi

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Re: Comprehensive and collision auto insurance
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2022, 07:08:29 PM »
So on the last point, every carrier I have ever had required you to carry the highest coverage they had (even if it was $500K) on auto to purchase an umbrella policy.   My current carrier Allstate is like that as well, but I can do 250/500/100 which is their highest.


Interesting.  I only mentioned it because that was not the case when I had coverage with Geico. 

Cassie

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Re: Comprehensive and collision auto insurance
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2022, 05:42:40 AM »
I have never had any insurance company requiring that you carry the maximum despite living in 5 states and having many different carriers through out the years.

simonsez

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Re: Comprehensive and collision auto insurance
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2022, 10:37:43 AM »
So I always keep comp with zero deductible.
Typically you can have a $0 deductible for glass and have the rest of comprehensive have a more normal deductible. Maybe that's what you meant?
Varies by state.

In my state glass IS a part of comprehensive.  So if you have a $0 deductible on your comprehensive, the glass is also covered under that.  They aren't separated but my parents just across the river in a different state - glass is a separate add-on that is excluded from comprehensive coverage.

seattlecyclone

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Re: Comprehensive and collision auto insurance
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2022, 11:09:47 AM »
I have never had any insurance company requiring that you carry the maximum despite living in 5 states and having many different carriers through out the years.

An umbrella policy will generally require some minimum level of liability coverage on the underlying home/auto policies. Last time I looked at our coverage options this minimum was quite a bit higher than the lowest auto liability coverage level, but was not the highest auto liability level available from our particular carrier.

Laura33

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Re: Comprehensive and collision auto insurance
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2022, 12:32:02 PM »
I would not mess with anything while the kids are still on your insurance.  Except possibly raising the deductible and accepting that a 15-yr-old Corolla may just have to exist with some minor body damage that isn't repaired. 

Once it's just the two of you, feel free to drop everything but liability, if you figure the savings are worth it.  Of course, once your kids are off your policies, the coverage cost will likely go down significantly anyway, so it may no longer be worth the savings.

One other consideration is whether you'd actually need to replace the vehicle that was totaled.  You have 3 vehicles now; would you continue to keep a third vehicle for the kids if one of them died (in which case it may be worth insurance to pay for that replacement), or could you get by with just two vehicles (in which case it's not)?

Finally, one often-overlooked benefit of insurance is just having someone take care of shit for you.  If I am in an accident now, my insurer provides a lawyer and handles my repairs and any claims by the other driver.  Sure, they're looking after the insurer's best interests, not mine, but for most run-of-the-mill incidents, that's good enough.  If I had only partial coverage, OTOH, I could find myself arguing not just with the other driver, but with my insurer over whether the specific claims are covered by the part of the policy I still have.  So if/when you do decide to drop some coverage, read your policy carefully to ensure that the remaining terms will cover everything you expect it to. 

RWD

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Re: Comprehensive and collision auto insurance
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2022, 02:12:10 PM »
So I always keep comp with zero deductible.
Typically you can have a $0 deductible for glass and have the rest of comprehensive have a more normal deductible. Maybe that's what you meant?
Varies by state.

In my state glass IS a part of comprehensive.  So if you have a $0 deductible on your comprehensive, the glass is also covered under that.  They aren't separated but my parents just across the river in a different state - glass is a separate add-on that is excluded from comprehensive coverage.

Glass is under comprehensive for me too regardless of how you set the deductible, but my insurer allows the deductible for glass to be set to $0 independently.

caracarn

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Re: Comprehensive and collision auto insurance
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2022, 07:13:38 AM »
I would not mess with anything while the kids are still on your insurance.  Except possibly raising the deductible and accepting that a 15-yr-old Corolla may just have to exist with some minor body damage that isn't repaired. 

Once it's just the two of you, feel free to drop everything but liability, if you figure the savings are worth it.  Of course, once your kids are off your policies, the coverage cost will likely go down significantly anyway, so it may no longer be worth the savings.

One other consideration is whether you'd actually need to replace the vehicle that was totaled.  You have 3 vehicles now; would you continue to keep a third vehicle for the kids if one of them died (in which case it may be worth insurance to pay for that replacement), or could you get by with just two vehicles (in which case it's not)?

Finally, one often-overlooked benefit of insurance is just having someone take care of shit for you.  If I am in an accident now, my insurer provides a lawyer and handles my repairs and any claims by the other driver.  Sure, they're looking after the insurer's best interests, not mine, but for most run-of-the-mill incidents, that's good enough.  If I had only partial coverage, OTOH, I could find myself arguing not just with the other driver, but with my insurer over whether the specific claims are covered by the part of the policy I still have.  So if/when you do decide to drop some coverage, read your policy carefully to ensure that the remaining terms will cover everything you expect it to.

Yes both my wife and I work and use the two care regularly.   Even with 3 it is an issue with car roulette.   One kids may be working all day during the week as well, and the other has high school classes mid-day.  Right now one of the two adults is home on those days so we can get by with the 3 cars with a little juggling, but each morning we have a logistics meeting to dispatch the cars best.   When the Corolla was just in the shop Wednesday for tires and then my wife had to get driven to the airport and kid had to work and one had school, we averted a bit of tight timetables by finding out the school child had a remote day so did not need to drive in.   So yeah, I think for now we are going to leave it be and review when situation becomes what you described.

six-car-habit

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Re: Comprehensive and collision auto insurance
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2022, 10:11:45 AM »
 Teach kids / young adults to be better drivers before unleashing them on the world ?

 I know people have accidents --- but 4 for 4,  a 100% accident prone success rate so far, where they caused the crash [ i'll assume - because otherwise the other fellows insurance would have paid for your fixes ]  - and already resigning yourself to the idea it will be a 6 for 6 record of kids crashing before they move out of the house....bummer for your neighbors, and their insurance rates as well.

 Next time one of the children crashes the car, don't fix the cosmetics, don't pay the deductible, everyone just deals driving a car with a smashed fender. Obviously if the vehicle is mechanically or electrically unsafe to drive, you fix that before putting it back on the road.

Cassie

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Re: Comprehensive and collision auto insurance
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2022, 10:52:51 AM »
Anyone that’s had teenagers driving knows that they usually get into one accident. Luckily I only had 3 kids:)).

1FACTORY174!

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Re: Comprehensive and collision auto insurance
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2022, 10:56:43 AM »
So the topics I found were from 2013 and since the forum suggested I start a new topic since they were so old doing so.

I've read the feedback there and it seems to align with what I have found and what I am thinking but wanted to get opinions of those here as I value them for financial topics like this.

We have a 2015 Hyundai Sonata, 2011 Toyota Prius and 2007 Toyota Corolla.   We have comp and collision on all of them.

Recently I was thinking if it was time to drop that on the two oldest cars given that they are over 10 years old at this time (they were both bought used in the last 4 years so we've not owned them the whole time).   The total cost between both cars is $178.50 against $1,047 every six months, so about 15% of the cost of the insurance. 

While we bought both in cash and could do so again, the basic math seems to lean almost heavily towards keeping the coverages however as even the Corolla is still worth $5,000 and the $160 every year for that could be paid for the next 10 years and still only total $1,600 against a possible return of $4,000 (I have a $1,000 deductible).   We still have two young drivers (20 and 18, with the 18 year old having his license for less than two months as I write this, and the 20 year old did not get hers until she was 19 either) so highly likely that something will occur to that car.  We've had four other kids go through the  "kid car" and every single one of them has had an accident at some point so the odds seems to be likely these two will not miss out on that rite of passage.   

Every calculation I have found on line seems to say if you take what the car is worth, and take away your deductible and what you pay for comp and collision if it is not negative then keep the coverage.   I seem to likely be in that spot for many years to come, but my financial side wrestles with the fact that a 15 year old car still makes sense to have full coverage.  However, math is pretty factual so I also do not want to be the fool who goes against it when if they totaled the 2007 Corolla today that calculation is $5,000--$1,000-$0 or $3,920.    So even though I can afford to replace it in cash with a $10,000 car would I not be a fool to walk away from the insurance company giving me nearly 4,000 dollars by just paying then 80?   

The math is far more favorable for the other cars as the Sonata is worth about $7,200 and the Prius is $11,000 (guess those Toyota's do retain their value huh?)   So bottom line is it seems like if I could save over $300 a year I should look at it but in this case it also seem like this expense is worth it to offset the realities of risk.   If it was just my wife and I perhaps the calculus would be different because it is easier to assume any accident will not be our fault as we are very safe, but the other risks like trees, deer and such are not controlled by our driving style, so that seems to need to be a factor too. 

Input?
I say TAKE all kids at 14 or 15 to electric go cart track,so they can try to understand braking correctly in corners early or late or not at all .Most drivers young and old fear curbs or center median walls or gaurd rails it is a sign that they never truely were taught how to drive  sad but true,i grew up racing motorcycles and bicycles at 15 helped big time.

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caracarn

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Re: Comprehensive and collision auto insurance
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2023, 01:18:21 PM »
Interesting how even here where folks are usually a little less ornery than the general internet, assumptions of releasing bad drivers on the world is where we've come to.  First, I'd love to understand how just because you take kids through something like the electric go kart training proposed last and even if they do well at it that you suddenly think they will not get into an accident or that even the odds go down.  But to respond to the ones who assume we did nothing, just let them pass the written test, get their photo snapped and said have at it, our state requires 50 hours with a parent or road driving, which obviously provides opportunities for instruction.  We typically exceeded that and they also had the mandatory 8 hours of instruction from a driving school.   We also regularly talk with them about incidents they encountered once they were driving the did not result in accidents but that were noteworthy enough to them to come home and tell us about them.  We then talked through what they could have done differently, and at times there was nothing.  They have also always been required to pat the deductible for any crash they have, they also pay for gas for the car periodically (we pay for two tanks they buy the third, since most of the driving is "mandatory" stuff they need to get to versus going to hang with their friends), and they pay the insurance premium change that occurs for them getting insurance or the increase that happens after a crash.   So they have skin in the game.  My wife and I are not a bunch of helicopter parents who think our kids can do no wrong and who do not teach them responsibility but I love how the assumptions have gone there.  I guess kudos on the last two of three posters who've been lucky enough to not have incidents and chalk it up to their brilliant parenting that other don't know how to do.

The comment Cassie makes is by far the norm for what I have seen and heard.   I've not had an accident of any kind (my fault or otherwise) in over 30 years, but I did have a few in my teenage and young adult phase.  Was it because I was not trained?  No.  It was because I was showboating for my girlfriend in the care and side swiped another car while fishtailing my '86 Cutlass around a corner and misjudging (I only ran the rubber of the bumper down the length of their car, so no body damage but I was ticketed.  Do I get credit for my masterful car control verging on the skills of a stuntman?), or just not having experience in certain weather conditions when 4 other drivers around me were also struggling and some of us ultimately connected.   To the brilliant commenter who again assumes that "fearing" curbs and such as because they have not been taught, we regularly talked to the kids how they were too far away, too concerned or whatever with the center line etc.   

Perhaps the comments will be helpful to others.   I was looking for answers on whether to keep insurance on vehicles, not on parenting or assuming we do not demand our kids be responsible.  Since I said my youngest is 18, unless you've got a time machine FACTORY giving advice for 14 or 15 year olds is about 4 years too late.  I think above I address six-car-habit enough for my taste.  Perhaps they do not have kids or again, got lucky that their driving needs and environments did not place them in spots they got into a wreck.   We evaluated the accidents when they happened and none were alarming to us.  They were teenage accidents.   They were inexperienced drivers figuring our that what they thought they understood was not quite right, and in 1 or two cases they were the result of bad luck, where the other driver was not doing something right either but out citation laws indicate that they get the ticket.   When another driver turns in front of them with no time to spare to stop you get the ticket for failing to yield.  They don't assess anything else because a side impact is automatically the fault of that driver.  My wife and I knowing where the accident happened and looking at the police report and the other kids in the car that were driving back from school with them determined it would have been unlikely we could have had a different result had we been driving.   Monday morning quarterbacking is always easy.  Maybe you'll feel something above was wrong in your eyes too, and I guess I'll just have to live with that.  It still does not change that the question was about do we keep insurance or not, which yes is mainly centered on the risk level of having to use it, which I would hope no one disputes is higher for teen drivers, or are the insurance company actuaries wrong too because they should assume any "trained" driver will never have an accident, regardless of age?