The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: MilitaryMan on December 17, 2014, 12:29:32 PM
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Oy. Been a reader for a while, but going through some old posts. This one in particular tugs at my heart: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/04/13/what-does-early-retirement-mean-anyway/ with idyllic descriptions of mountain bike rides, breakfast as a family, and 2 month long summer vacations. Also reading “Your Money or your life” which is also like taking a punch in the face daily.
I'm a 35y/o with 3 young children. Spouse and I, through high earning and reasonable, albeit not mustachian, lifestyle have about $1.25M net worth. We could quit working now, move to Longmont and live like kings, actually like Mr and Mrs Mustache, on $50k a year forever enjoying our young daughters, per the 4% rule.
But alas, I am an indentured servant to the military because of degrees earned and have to work at least another 9.5 years (age 45). Or 12.5 years (age 48) until 60% pension + good affordable health care for my fam forever.
My job is actually quite enjoyable and rewarding. But about 3 months ago its location changed and now I have a daily 70 min commute each direction. KILL ME. My wife can walk or bike to work from our house. My life satisfaction has taken a big dive with the new commute.
So, what to do, gentle reader? I had always thought being in the military was a pretty good option, because, after all, everyone has a boss. And every job has frustrations and red tape, blah blah blah, and the military is not the worst place to do a job, no student debt, service to country, higher calling, blah blah. And then I happen across MMM and learn that NOT everyone has a boss! And NOT WORKING is actually an option.
I’ve tried suggesting to my wife that she stop working and we move close to my job. Because that would greatly improve my quality of life. So far she hasn’t bitten on that suggestion. While she likes the impact MMM has on our family’s grocery bills and spending and my new interest in investing, she isn’t really sold on the idea of “retiring” in her 30s. She sees these as her highest earning potential years (and she’s probably right – last year – a very good year, she pulled in $500k). Also, as you can see the whole after- child-care-and-transportation-and-work-clothes-and-lattes-she's-probably-not-really-making-any-money argument isn't applicable to us. I'm the lower earner, but my not working isn't an option.
So I’m stuck working for at least the next 9.5yrs. And the wife wants to keep working her overall rewarding, but also high powered high paying job.
In the above mentioned blog post, MMM encourages “pedal to the metal to get to retirement in 7-10 years” rather than wimpy attempts at 50. I guess I’m going to be wimpy and retire at 48 when my kids are no longer cuddly and small and cute. But I don’t really have much of a choice, do I?
I’m curious what other mustachians would do in this situation. Should I just hunker down and make the most of the life I signed up for, relishing the hours of books on CD I get to enjoy during my commute? Should I compel my wife to leave a high paying job she enjoys so we can all spend more time together as a family, since we clearly have much more than enough (also how do I do this)? At 48 will my best years be behind me? Should I get out at 45 leaving the 60% pension and health care and other benefits on the table? (would appreciate Nords take on this)
Longing for a simpler life. Whining complete.
Edit: "Paying back" the military is not an option.
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Something don't add up for me. Your wife made 500K last year and your net worth is 1.25M? How long has she been making mid six figures? What is your yearly budget?
As far as I know indentured servitude is not legal in the US, so the military might have paid for your education but you can always pay it back to get out.
Why don't you quit working and let your wife continue to work? Am I missing something?
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It appears that you have choices. If your wife is earning such a ridiculous salary, I am sure you can afford to get out of the military, and become a SAHD, while she enjoys the job she is happy with. It also gives you the option of renting a very small crash pad near where you work, and using that a couple of nights a week, to stop your commute from killing you.
The question remains, however, whether you actually could live like MMM, retire to Longmont and live like kings. If you have a net worth of $1.25M it sounds like you currently live like emperors, and would find it difficult to retire.
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Can you provide some details about your options, if any, to get out? It sounds like your wife wants to keep working (her perogative) and you'd like to get out and spend more time with your kids. It doesn't sound like convincing her to retire early is going to get you very far. If you have an option, even an expensive one, to get out then you could decide to get out and give up some of the nice benefits from your job. If your wife keeps working and making even a fraction of last year's income, you'll have more than enough to live a luxurious lifestyle and pay for your degrees, healthcare, etc.
Basically, you want to retire, she wants to work, and you're trying to convince her to retire while you keep working. Approaching it as a need to get her to retire seems unlikely to be successful.
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Cathy is right. Can't buy my way out, Deborah and mxt0133 and TheMoneyBadger.
And while it's not entirely relevant to my question posed, yes, we don't live a highly mustachian lifestyle (although compared to our peers we are frugal). It would take some cinching of the belt to get down to 50k a year expenses and a move out of our high COL area, stop paying for childcare for 3 kids, etc. We've made some changes since following MMM, eating out less, thinking harder about the accumulation of "stuff" but it's hard to be motivated for drastic changes, like moving to a smaller house, when I'm still bound to be working just as long whether I live in a big or small house.
But I'm trying to focus on the other benefits of being frugal that MMM espouses other than just retiring early. Like how I feel like a freaking rock star when I bring home groceries in the bike trailer. Hiking as a family activity rather than obnoxious indoor chuckie cheese. Planning and cooking our own meals, etc.
Thanks for the comments. I know I'm ridiculous to complain. We are extremely blessed and the military has been very good to me. It's a privilege to serve. Young kids can kind of change you though, you know?
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So, what to do, gentle reader? I had always thought being in the military was a pretty good option, because, after all, everyone has a boss. And every job has frustrations and red tape, blah blah blah, and the military is not the worst place to do a job, no student debt, service to country, higher calling, blah blah. And then I happen across MMM and learn that NOT everyone has a boss! And NOT WORKING is actually an option.
No, you did come out with student debt--9.5 years of your life. What is the $$ price to pay the military back for your education and get out?
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PS: Thank you for your service to our country. We do appreciate it. Even if we might be suggesting that you to cut it short.
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even at 48 wouldn't be bad
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Can you have a talk with your boss regarding the commute? Maybe you could negotiate days home, or 4 days at 10 hours instead of 5 at 8?
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TerriM, thanks for your kind words. You are right! I most certainly do have a student debt, a large one! No option to pay back $$ and get out.
Ways to get out would all be unscrupulous. Likely faking an illness/injury, getting really fat (may or may not work), saying I'm a "conscientious objector" to war, etc. I'm not looking to shirk my duties. I accepted money for school and signed up with open eyes and of course, I'm proud to be serving.
I guess I'm just wondering if it's reasonable to ask my wife to stop working when I feel that would make our family life better as a whole. Less stress, less commuting, (she travels a bit for work as it is now,) less time away from kids, less child care, etc. And we could live quite comfortably on my salary alone. Plus we've already built a nice nest egg during our time as dual incomers. Kids are only young once, etc.
From the money standpoint, non-mustachians would of course think its heretical for her to quit her high paying job so my commute is better and we see our kids more. But I guess I was thinking here in this community, where the idea of what is "enough" is much different, I might get a bit more back-up for my position.
But perhaps what is more important that the cash is that she is very happy in this job, gets a lot of self-worth and identity out of it. Sounds like the answer from everyone is "no" - it's not reasonable to ask her to quit and move.
TerriM - great suggestion about the 4 day work week idea. I'm still getting settled, but that is definitely an option. Not every week, but many weeks. 4 days commuting vs. 5 days makes a huge difference!
iamadummy - glad to hear 48 isn't so bad :) just wimpy in MMM's eyes
Any thoughts on the serving the extra 3 years for the pension + retiree military benefits? Again seems like a no brainer to just do the extra three in a job I overall enjoy. But MMM has had some strong thoughts in blogs against wasting years of your life for pensions which aren't really needed. What would you do?
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9.5 years yet...are you a pilot or a doctor? Could you get out on a hardship? Could you transfer to a Reserve or Guard position? Would your wife consider moving to a home that is half way between your two jobs. I know that a commute is NOT what MMM recommends but sometimes needs must. Have you done any outside the box thinking about your wife's job such as telecommuting and moving closer to your base? Any other options that may appear, hard to throw out ideas when we have no idea what either of you do. And as a military person are you guaranteed to stay put at the current base for the next 9.5 years or is another base possible in the next decade? And how does your spouse feel about that if its a possibility.
As someone whose spouse is just a few years away from a military pension I'd say that once you've reached the point you've only 3 years left until the pension is earned (and I assume that you'd begin receiving benefits immediately as an active duty retiree?) that sticking it out the 3 years may be worth it. At that point your cuddly kids will be teens whose own lives are so busy that you won't see much of them as it is AND when they are around they'd just as soon pretend that YOU didn't exist. But really, its a choice that won't need to be made for nearly a decade so not something to lose sleep over right now.
In the meantime, use your 6 weeks of paid time off judiciously to maximize time spent together as a family. Such things as taking the Friday or Tuesday off that brackets a Federal holiday thereby having 4 days to spend with spouse and kids while only burning 1 leave day. Once they start school always scheduling time off during their school breaks to spend together.
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What are the education benefits of the military? Does it cap out? I can't imagine your wife's 500k a year income (?!) doesn't somehow make up for giving up on your G.I. Bill. And what's this 9.5 year commitment you keep talking about?
Just being honest here, but it's like you're hiding the details in an effort to just find people who will agree with you/commiserate with your situation. We can't help if we can't figure out why you are even trying to talk your 500k-earning-wife into quitting and moving when you must make... well I imagine a hell of a lot less than that :)
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Is there any possibility of your wife finding a job closer to your work?
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So, what to do, gentle reader? I had always thought being in the military was a pretty good option, because, after all, everyone has a boss. And every job has frustrations and red tape, blah blah blah, and the military is not the worst place to do a job, no student debt, service to country, higher calling, blah blah. And then I happen across MMM and learn that NOT everyone has a boss! And NOT WORKING is actually an option.
Actually, you had it right the first time. I believe everyone has a boss. Even if you have your own business, you're answering to the needs of your customers.
So tell me what your question is here? You can't quit your job, and you can't move. So what exactly are we answering here? I presume you "can't" quit due to a contract or something? It's obvious you can't move, or wouldn't really be beneficial to do so. True Mustachians don't rely on pensions, and with you're wife's income, a pension would be irrelevant, especially considering your net worth already. If you can quit, then quit ASAP. Otherwise, if you can't, then I guess this was more of an outlet to vent above anything else.
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I don't really understand why you can't get out of a contract by paying back what you were given, but can you work part time? Or telecommute full time? Does it go the other way? Are they required to employ you? Your kids are in school anyway so just work those hours. And what does your wife do, hedge fund manager?
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Military to someone married to the military, you can bring the topic of "early retirement, raise the kids" up to your wife, but you have to accept she may reject it. My husband is AD, I out earn him...by a lot (not nearly what your wife earns but more than he makes). We've had this conversation, and in NO short terms I told him that it's not going to happen. I didn't spend X years of my life getting degrees, X years building a career, and I DO NOT EVER...and I mean EVER, want to be in a position that I have to rely on someone else to take care of me or pay my bills.
We've all heard the stories...Susie Q gives up her career, pops out a few kids, raises them, then John Q decides to retire from the military and have a mid life crisis that involves sleeping with Bunny (the future Bunny Q), and divorcing Susie, leaving her near destitute (or on this blog, with half the stash...not enough to fully retire on for life though), with few employment options due to many years out of the work force. Sorry, not going to happen to me. And I have a feeling your wife may feel the same.
Options, you are either a pilot, or a doc, and no, buying out your contract is NOT an option, so they are limited...but with sequestration you never know if they will offer to buy you out, offer contract ends or simply fire you for being overstaffed in the MOS (probably not in your potential fields, just like it won't be in SOF any time soon...they don't spend millions training you for nothing...but then again it's the government and we all know they do IDIOTIC things)
So, small loophole you may not know about, and one we've discussed using, is if you can prove income/net worth high enough to prove that your level of "I don't give a fuck" is high enough, they may separate you to avoid you being a liability to others. Used by a couple of folk we know in the draw up effectively, however I doubt it will be the same going forward
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I don't really understand why you can't get out of a contract by paying back what you were given, but can you work part time? Or telecommute full time? Does it go the other way? Are they required to employ you? Your kids are in school anyway so just work those hours. And what does your wife do, hedge fund manager?
Mozar, it's the government...they OWN your ass. You sign a contract that says you will serve X years in return for an education loan repayment (among other initiatives), then you can't go yellow belly and say "CRAP, I didn't sign up to go to war, I only signed up to get an education!!!" Until that contract is fulfilled, you CANNOT get out without some shady dealings, or a government that decides you are no longer a necessary piece of issued equipment
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We've all heard the stories...Susie Q gives up her career, pops out a few kids, raises them, then John Q decides to retire from the military and have a mid life crisis that involves sleeping with Bunny (the future Bunny Q), and divorcing Susie, leaving her near destitute (or on this blog, with half the stash...not enough to fully retire on for life though), with few employment options due to many years out of the work force. Sorry, not going to happen to me. And I have a feeling your wife may feel the same.
True words. I sure hope everyone on this forum that decides to give up their careers and rely on another spouse making money to get them to FI is in a strong marriage. In that case, the plan works well.
But I have seen a recent case of two friends of mine married since college (both friends of mine) and the guy just had what we are all calling a mid-life crisis, cheated on her, wanted her to accept the cheating and stay living at home, and she said no so they are divorcing. She has been a stay at home mom for 4 kids for about 10-15 years going now and her engineering skills are completely rusty. She sure is worried about her future. They weren't on too firm financial ground before all of this started. The whole thing breaks my heart. He is a really good guy so the whole thing shocked me as well....not the type of guy you'd think would do this.
But, I do have a solution for any of these two income couples struggling with what to do with a $1.25M nest egg and $500k yearly income. You can contribute to the Lazy Daisy fund to help me get past my OMY situation. PM me if you want more details. You will be swimming in money by the time you are 48. I can help take some of that pressure off of you. ;-)
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I don't know how many more times I can say "paying it back isn't an option". I actually went back and edited my original post because I keep getting this "simple" solution presented to me over and over. But here it is again: paying back the money isn't an option. I'm on a contract now for the next 9.5 yrs.
What are the education benefits of the military? Does it cap out? I can't imagine your wife's 500k a year income (?!) doesn't somehow make up for giving up on your G.I. Bill. And what's this 9.5 year commitment you keep talking about?
Just being honest here, but it's like you're hiding the details in an effort to just find people who will agree with you/commiserate with your situation. We can't help if we can't figure out why you are even trying to talk your 500k-earning-wife into quitting and moving when you must make... well I imagine a hell of a lot less than that :)
Any details I'm hiding aren't in an effort to skew public opinion in my favor but more to protect our privacy. Having been in the military so long I think I've probably overestimated civilians understanding of how things work and for this I apologize. GI bill is something for veterans who have served and gotten out. (Or their kids). That's irrelevant to what we're talking about here. My education was paid for upfront while I was in an active duty status and now I'm under contract because of it. There's no "cap". I have a great deal of education that was funded by the military. For which I'm grateful. I've been in a while, still have 9.5 years remaining on my contract. A certain number of years of school = a certain number of years of military service. The most commonly known example would be ROTC. 4 yrs of ROTC undergraduate scholarship = 4 yrs of military service. It's not always 1 for 1, though.
I don't really understand why you can't get out of a contract by paying back what you were given, but can you work part time? Or telecommute full time? Does it go the other way? Are they required to employ you? Your kids are in school anyway so just work those hours. And what does your wife do, hedge fund manager?
see above about paying back. No, can't work part time. No, can't telecommute full time. yes, they are required to employ me - unless I am found incompetent or unfit in some manner. My kids are not in school yet, too young. wife - in that general field, yes
9.5 years yet...are you a pilot or a doctor? Could you get out on a hardship? Could you transfer to a Reserve or Guard position? Would your wife consider moving to a home that is half way between your two jobs. I know that a commute is NOT what MMM recommends but sometimes needs must. Have you done any outside the box thinking about your wife's job such as telecommuting and moving closer to your base? Any other options that may appear, hard to throw out ideas when we have no idea what either of you do. And as a military person are you guaranteed to stay put at the current base for the next 9.5 years or is another base possible in the next decade? And how does your spouse feel about that if its a possibility.
As someone whose spouse is just a few years away from a military pension I'd say that once you've reached the point you've only 3 years left until the pension is earned (and I assume that you'd begin receiving benefits immediately as an active duty retiree?) that sticking it out the 3 years may be worth it. At that point your cuddly kids will be teens whose own lives are so busy that you won't see much of them as it is AND when they are around they'd just as soon pretend that YOU didn't exist. But really, its a choice that won't need to be made for nearly a decade so not something to lose sleep over right now.
In the meantime, use your 6 weeks of paid time off judiciously to maximize time spent together as a family. Such things as taking the Friday or Tuesday off that brackets a Federal holiday thereby having 4 days to spend with spouse and kids while only burning 1 leave day. Once they start school always scheduling time off during their school breaks to spend together.
bingo. While I'm whining about my commute as a hardship, it's hardly a "hardship" warranting separation from the military. A PCS move is a possibility, but not likely. If Uncle Sam sends us elsewhere, wife will pick up and come, i.e. stop what she's doing. This is another reason she is a bit adamant about earning as much as she can now - because she doesn't know when it will end, either because of a down turn in the market or because of a required move. O/w appreciate the thoughts on using leave and those extra 3 years.So, what to do, gentle reader? I had always thought being in the military was a pretty good option, because, after all, everyone has a boss. And every job has frustrations and red tape, blah blah blah, and the military is not the worst place to do a job, no student debt, service to country, higher calling, blah blah. And then I happen across MMM and learn that NOT everyone has a boss! And NOT WORKING is actually an option.
If you can quit, then quit ASAP. Otherwise, if you can't, then I guess this was more of an outlet to vent above anything else.
yup, guess I should shut up now. I'll just keep lurking, jealous of you folks living the good life in FIRE. :)
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All excellent points, Siobhan. Thanks for replying. I will add that in your scenario Susie Q gets half of John Q's pension, and continued military health care, commissary/PX access, etc until she remarries. But point taken. My Susie would certainly be at a huge disadvantage financially if she stopped working now with her high earning potential to pacify me, and then our marriage, heaven forbid, fell apart. Would be basically impossible to make up lost ground.
Hadn't heard about the "too rich to give a fuck" loophole. But that's not my style. Maybe I'm a bit of a lazy bastard who'd like to sweep his driveway at 11am, but I will honorably serve out the rest of my commitment to my best ability.
Okay, I'll stop badgering her about moving to a cheaper/simpler life closer to my work. So I guess this exercise was more than just a vent. Thanks, everyone, for your input!
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MilitaryMan, I will accept that you can't get out.
I would do the 12 years if i were you. But unless you're making a buttload of money by yourself, I'd let your wife have her career and when you retire, you will both be very well provided for.
If you really can't stand the commute (I assume you're driving), what about hiring a chauffeur or doing bus to taxi? :) Then at least you can read both directions. Not mustachian, but I bet you can afford it.
Obviously the other option is to move halfway in the middle and split the commute.
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MilitaryMan, I will accept that you can't get out.
I would do the 12 years if i were you. But unless you're making a buttload of money by yourself, I'd let your wife have her career and when you retire, you will both be very well provided for.
If you really can't stand the commute (I assume you're driving), what about hiring a chauffeur or doing bus to taxi? :) Then at least you can read both directions. Not mustachian, but I bet you can afford it.
Obviously the other option is to move halfway in the middle and split the commute.
I disagree about the moving. Why have two people miserable instead of one? It's nice to have one parent close to home for emergencies, repairs, etc. Plus, MilitaryMan's job may change locations again.
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MilitaryMan, I will accept that you can't get out.
I would do the 12 years if i were you. But unless you're making a buttload of money by yourself, I'd let your wife have her career and when you retire, you will both be very well provided for.
If you really can't stand the commute (I assume you're driving), what about hiring a chauffeur or doing bus to taxi? :) Then at least you can read both directions. Not mustachian, but I bet you can afford it.
Obviously the other option is to move halfway in the middle and split the commute.
I disagree about the moving. Why have two people miserable instead of one? It's nice to have one parent close to home for emergencies, repairs, etc. Plus, MilitaryMan's job may change locations again.
True, though there is a length of commute that most people feel is too much, and 70 minutes is definitely that. I think for a lot of people, 35 minutes feel like a commute, but not necessarily a kill-me commute.
But you're right that if OP's location may change again, it would be silly to move. Then again, if it *could* change again, is there a possibility to make it happen now?
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First, thank you for your service: I appreciate it. And your willingness to meet your obligations and not try and wiggle out of your previous commitment.
That said....have you had a heart to heart with your CO? Can you possibly pitch your case to someone that would snap you back out of the 70 minute commute to your previous position?
Can you cross train or add a skillset that would entice them to redeploy you closer? Are you tight with anyone up the chain of command who could counsel you on ways to do this?
And (forgive my ignorance) but does weekend warrior status count as active military to where you might be able to deploy closer to home with that?
Barring any of that....if your wife can't/won't find something closer to your new base you might have to just beg Santa to get you reassigned?
I wish you and your family the best of luck with this. And thank you again.
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A chauffeur is a good idea. I'm just curious about not being able to get out of a contract. I'm a civilian who doesn't know much about military contracts. I had a co-worker who had a bachelors degree, masters and phd paid for. She was 5 years into 15 years contract I think.
Can you talk to your co-workers about what they do? I find it hard to understand that the employer can't accommodate anyone with children or alternative needs no way no how.
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Looks like you have pretty limited options. I'm guessing you did FLEP or one of the PhD options? nothing else really has an ADSO that long. They gave me the NPS option as a junior O-3, then the retention bonus so I ended up with a hefty commitment after ROTC. After deploying to Afghanistan, I ended up working in Garmisch, GE as a FAO with a 5 minute walk to work in the Bavarian alps...cool international community, lots of outdoor stuff and Austria was only 30 min away. You're probably locked into your career field, so the only reasonable thing you could do is push for the best assignments with excellent quality of life and short commutes; unless you're locked into some location or are trying actively to stay for your wife's job.
I medically retired as an O-4 with 75% of my high three just shy of 13 years of service. Interestingly enough, the docs said it could have gone either way...I probably could have pushed to stay in the military with some caveats and just as easily boarded out (which happened). Immediately after retirement, I accepted a gov position (35min beltway commute). Two months into it, I discovered MMM and decided I would FIRE at the first possible moment. The wife and I are about to make the last mortgage payment on our house in Michigan and will leave DC as soon as humanly possible. 9.5 yrs seems like a long time, but everybody says the second 10 goes much faster than the first 10.
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To go back to the original question, it sounds like you went straight to the nuclear option (wife leaves job she likes, is good at, and is earning piles of money at, plus family alters lifestyle to live MMM style on one income, plus, I am assuming, you would be wanting to move closer to your job, so you are now looking at packing up an entire household which, as the non-working spouse, she would end up doing the majority of the work for). That is a ton of change for someone who is already arranging her life around your career.
I think you should rewind from the "solution" phase and go back to the "problem" phase and discuss the main issue, which is that you have very little flexibility in your job, and that you are worried about missing the early stages of your children's lives now that your commute is so long. Then come up with a variety of solutions and go with the best.
I would not worry about the three extra years to pension until you get much closer. The solution may seem more obvious at that time.
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I'm a similar age to you, also an officer in the military. I have nothing constructive to add, other than to say that once when I was particularly unhappy in a DC/policy/cubicle job, I looked at the list of available jobs, found the one that would be the hardest for the detailer to fill, and asked for it. Three months later I was loving life in Guam, and never looked back. Have had great assignments since.
Of course, I get the impression that a huge part of why you are staying put and accepting such a long commute is to make your wife happy. I can't imagine she would enjoy giving up the career she's built to move around the world. If the military makes you do it, of course, that's a different story. But my wife wasn't working at the time, so it was very easy for me to ask for a location change.
It seems to me that this is just as much about your relationship with your wife and finding a common ground between the two of you as it is about the military. I only say that because I've seen the work available (at least in my service) and most people I know can find something they enjoy doing - don't like what you are doing now? Just wait a year! I will say though, of my peers who have gotten out, in most cases it was because their spouse's were super educated, had great career potential, and weren't willing to give that up. In your case, of course, you don't have that option.
Good luck! Sorry for the lack of constructive advice!
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Love hearing from some other military members, past and present. And what your experiences have been. Thanks!
We'll just keep making the best of it, keeping in mind the good suggestions offered here.
During this holiday season there are plenty of our service members who WISH they were working only 70min from their wife and kids.
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Thank you for your service! I am an army wife who gave up her career as an architect to spit out 3 kids. We have been married 15yrs and he has 13yrs in. I do qualify for support, as stated above, should he loose his mind and cheat on me! Although i'd be in jail for murder first ;-) we move every 2 yrs, sometimes more often, and currently live on Oahu (so it does have some perks)
I also know you could "get out" by some shady crap (my husband is a lawyer and sees things like that all the time). Misconduct.do something "bad" enough to get discharged, but not "bad" enough for jail time. And mostly this is within the medical community (sorry) most doctors can and do moonlight and get big fat job offers so they stop showing up to work meetings and such to get discharged. Who cares is it's not honorable, because they already have a job.
Anyways...good luck! And sorry you have to suck it up until retirement. Save as much as you can, then you both can retire and move into disneyland forever!!!
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Now I may be a lowly enlisted wretch so take what I say with a grain of salt, but consider getting geographic bachelor quarters at your work site and going home on the weekends. Since you like your job a lot more than I did mine, stick it out for the pension and healthcare. Forget retirement, my mid-life goal is a shiny gold bar. You're already way up there. Maybe get enough pull to get your kids into West Point. Don't forget to max out your TSP as well.
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A chauffeur is a good idea. I'm just curious about not being able to get out of a contract. I'm a civilian who doesn't know much about military contracts. I had a co-worker who had a bachelors degree, masters and phd paid for. She was 5 years into 15 years contract I think.
Can you talk to your co-workers about what they do? I find it hard to understand that the employer can't accommodate anyone with children or alternative needs no way no how.
My guess is that he is a doctor. Not a job you can do from home.
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Is a leave of absence an option? Even if it extends your service further into the future it would get you the time you want with your kids while they're small.
As for adding the extra 3 years to get a higher pension I'm actively discouraging my DH from doing that. He's Canadian military (so things may be different for you), but the Canadian government just keeps reducing veteran's benefits for injured CF members. There is no way in hell I want the additional risk of him getting hurt/PTSD/stress induced heart attack/etc if there's a good chance we'll get the shaft wrt medical benefits. The second his contract is up, we're out.
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It sounds like you have a really wonderful life, you just have a horrible commute. I think you know that, which is why you call yourself Complainy Pants, but that doesn't mean the uncomfortable bits are any less uncomfortable.
First off, I think you are being a little bit overly-focused on what you "should" do in the MMM worldview, and you're sort of working yourself up about it. MMM may call himself retired, but he's really more self employed while financially independent. There's a weird wrinkle in your personal journey toward independence, financially or otherwise, in that you have this very real and binding time commitment. It's ok, it's just different in a key way from MMM's personal experience. You clearly already believe it would be dishonorable to cheat your way out of the military. So really, that's off the table. It's ok, it's just part of the life choices you have made for yourself. But think of it this way: you already are financially independent. You're now paying a debt of honor and doing real service. Maybe that sounds hokey, but so what? It's a very admirable reason to do something, and you even enjoy it.
Your wife is also already financially independent. How awesome is it that she decides every day to wake up and keep doing the job that she loves! She gets personal, professional, and financial rewards from it, and you should be giving each other high fives every single day for having such an awesome life. OK, you're paying for childcare. So what? It's a worthwhile tradeoff for her, a necessary one for you, and remember, you're already financially set, so while it makes your annual expenditure numbers higher than the MMM family, so what? His message is about better decision making and giving yourself the freedom to live a life you love, and the part about only spending $25k a year is mostly about exploring tactics.
I'd suggest this thought exercise: let's say you did honorably retire from the military tomorrow. What would you do with your time? What would be your favorite activities to do with your kids? What else would you do with your time? Forget golfing all day or being a beach bum, but focus on the best parts of the life you want for yourself and then figure out how to make your current, already wonderful life closer to that ideal. I think you need to solve the commute problem, but there's no reason you are going to have to grind through it for the next nine years. You may have to do it for a year until you can switch jobs, and that sucks, but it's manageable. I like the 4-day-week idea. Even with that, can you start your drive earlier so you have a workout post-commute, pre-work near where you work? (Not sure if you're facing 70 minutes of traffic or 70 minutes of long distance.) Can you join or form a carpool? Even something as simple as books on tape could help a lot. When I have to occasionally deal with icky commutes I tell myself I'm just hanging out with my traffic buddies. You need to just get some tactics in place to deal with the problem while you have to, and remind yourself that it actually is temporary for you. You also need to work on reframing the situation in your own mind a little bit. Focus on what was attractive about this job when you took it. But this issue is important to you! If it wasn't, you wouldn't be stressed out about it! However, you might also be tired and need a vacation. Take a couple weeks off (weeks, not days) and you might all of a sudden have the energy to solve this sucker.
One note though: the 3 extra years for pension option is not your concern right now, it's your future self's problem. When you get closer to making that decision, you'll either feel the extra security is worth it, or decide you are so financially comfortable that it doesn't really add anything to your life. Aim for whatever financial independence means to you, and when you get to that point, you will be able to decide based on the personal and professional rewards your job offers, and not the pension. I think that's the ultimate Mustachian way to go.
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Omg! Stop your bitching! ;)
Just finish another 12 years and you're golden. Enjoy your family and life and just remember how sweet life will be at 48. You'll have another 40 years or so after that to do whatever you want.
I'll be 46 soon and only wish I was in your situation
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It sounds like you have a really wonderful life, you just have a horrible commute. I think you know that, which is why you call yourself Complainy Pants, but that doesn't mean the uncomfortable bits are any less uncomfortable.
First off, I think you are being a little bit overly-focused on what you "should" do in the MMM worldview, and you're sort of working yourself up about it. MMM may call himself retired, but he's really more self employed while financially independent. There's a weird wrinkle in your personal journey toward independence, financially or otherwise, in that you have this very real and binding time commitment. It's ok, it's just different in a key way from MMM's personal experience. You clearly already believe it would be dishonorable to cheat your way out of the military. So really, that's off the table. It's ok, it's just part of the life choices you have made for yourself. But think of it this way: you already are financially independent. You're now paying a debt of honor and doing real service. Maybe that sounds hokey, but so what? It's a very admirable reason to do something, and you even enjoy it.
Your wife is also already financially independent. How awesome is it that she decides every day to wake up and keep doing the job that she loves! She gets personal, professional, and financial rewards from it, and you should be giving each other high fives every single day for having such an awesome life. OK, you're paying for childcare. So what? It's a worthwhile tradeoff for her, a necessary one for you, and remember, you're already financially set, so while it makes your annual expenditure numbers higher than the MMM family, so what? His message is about better decision making and giving yourself the freedom to live a life you love, and the part about only spending $25k a year is mostly about exploring tactics.
I'd suggest this thought exercise: let's say you did honorably retire from the military tomorrow. What would you do with your time? What would be your favorite activities to do with your kids? What else would you do with your time? Forget golfing all day or being a beach bum, but focus on the best parts of the life you want for yourself and then figure out how to make your current, already wonderful life closer to that ideal. I think you need to solve the commute problem, but there's no reason you are going to have to grind through it for the next nine years. You may have to do it for a year until you can switch jobs, and that sucks, but it's manageable. I like the 4-day-week idea. Even with that, can you start your drive earlier so you have a workout post-commute, pre-work near where you work? (Not sure if you're facing 70 minutes of traffic or 70 minutes of long distance.) Can you join or form a carpool? Even something as simple as books on tape could help a lot. When I have to occasionally deal with icky commutes I tell myself I'm just hanging out with my traffic buddies. You need to just get some tactics in place to deal with the problem while you have to, and remind yourself that it actually is temporary for you. You also need to work on reframing the situation in your own mind a little bit. Focus on what was attractive about this job when you took it. But this issue is important to you! If it wasn't, you wouldn't be stressed out about it! However, you might also be tired and need a vacation. Take a couple weeks off (weeks, not days) and you might all of a sudden have the energy to solve this sucker.
One note though: the 3 extra years for pension option is not your concern right now, it's your future self's problem. When you get closer to making that decision, you'll either feel the extra security is worth it, or decide you are so financially comfortable that it doesn't really add anything to your life. Aim for whatever financial independence means to you, and when you get to that point, you will be able to decide based on the personal and professional rewards your job offers, and not the pension. I think that's the ultimate Mustachian way to go.
So much wisdom in someone with only "stubble"! I'll sit down with the Mrs. this evening after girls to bed and work through that thought exercise. Many thanks
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Can you charter a plane? You can afford it!
I just don't buy that your employer is not flexible. I have been a government contractor for 6 years and I've seen all kinds of arrangements. 730am-330pm, Telecommute 4 days a week and come in on Sundays, a guy who had 5 months of leave built up so he took off every other day, heck I even knew a woman who went in rained, she just didn't show up!
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It is true that there is a notion that there is ONE way to be Mustashian. But I disagree with this notion and any inflexible view of it. Cults can do that. :-)
I haven't actually seen one agreed upon way to be Mustachian. I don't think anyone actually claims that, even MMM himself.
I actually think that it's about living within your means, saving well to be entirely self sufficient, and being aware of our spending, values, etc - it's about focusing a huge spotlight on one's assumptions, biases, habits so that you spend time how you want
I think that's basically what most people think is roughly the idea of Mustachianism. :)
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I'm going to join in one face punching stream: for god's sake, if your spouse is bringing in $500,000 annually why is your 'stash only 1.5 milion?
Buddy, you need to grow that MF stache. Then come back in 3 years and talk to us.
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Thank you for your service! Guess I am just curious but it is pretty hard to rack up 20 years of educational committment. My dh had some pretty serious payback - West Point, med school, residency, Fellowship but still was eligible to get out before 20. He didn't, but he thought about it. Now we are glad he stuck it out - healthcare and a check for life. Not bad! Also you can use that gi bill for one of your kids - that can be worth about $200,000 if you play your cards right. Also 10 percent off at Lowes. Perks.
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OP - I didn't see you reply to the chaffeur or bachelor pad ideas. I personally believe those are both excellent options. I'd be slightly against the chaffeur as you are in the military and image is extremely important. You don't want enlisted personnel having that image of an officer. However, geo-bachelor status is extremely common, particularly for people close to retirement or who have teenagers they don't want to uproot. You can probably find a room for rent with a nice older person, which would be quiet and supplement his/her income. Stay there 1-4 nights x week. Your choice. Alternatively, I know a Pentagon commuter who had a 1.5 hour drive and he did that with a buddy. Got them into the HOV lane in MD and the passenger got to sleep/work/whatever (probably sleep, they left at 0400).
Just FYI everyone, if he received an Olmstead Scholarship it is likely that he ended up with a 6-year commitment for that. If he did law school while active duty, he bought a 6-year contract there. A free PhD can add a ton of time, too. If he is a highly specialized doctor, I could easily see this many years. For example, I once met a doctor at Walter Reed was was not just a heart specialist, but had an additional layer added on top of that. I don't know how medical education works at all, but suffice it to say this woman was in school for a decade or more. I know a good portion, if not all of that, was served while on active duty.
Most, but not all, commitments can be served concurrently.
Also, for the non-military types...and even the occasional enlisted person who is unaware of how things work on the O side, officers can often end up with commitment after commitment without it dawning upon them. This is usual due to educational opportunities or taking a new assignment, but it is really easy to find yourself more than a decade in before you are commitment-free. For example, I had a commitment for my undergrad but was given an assignment before I satisfied that, then I had a brief (1-year) window where I could've left (this was about 6 years in). I ended up taking the next assignment, which gave me another 2 years required, then an awesome educational opportunity, which will put me at 12 years in before I have another window where I can leave.
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Thank you for your service! Guess I am just curious but it is pretty hard to rack up 20 years of educational committment. My dh had some pretty serious payback - West Point, med school, residency, Fellowship but still was eligible to get out before 20. He didn't, but he thought about it. Now we are glad he stuck it out - healthcare and a check for life. Not bad! Also you can use that gi bill for one of your kids - that can be worth about $200,000 if you play your cards right. Also 10 percent off at Lowes. Perks.
Wow! You guys have it good now. When my dad went to college, he joined ROTC, paid his own tuition 100%, and *still* had a 4 year commitment and paid my college tuition as well (either the GI bill didn't offer tuition assistance for kids or he didn't know about it....)
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Given that you are where you are, try to improve the commute. I worked a 90 min commute to a military post. (Same deal, SO has job in other major city post is where it is). You can get "Mass Transportation benefits" which can be used for subsidized vanpool. I drove/rode in a 12 passanger van with 10 other people. It was completely subsidized and saved my sanity. We each drove one way on one specified day a week. So I was up-and-at-em and caffinated Monday mornings at 0-dark-thirty for my turn to drive in. THe other 7 legs a week (we worked 4 10's) I slept or read a magazine or listened to a podcast or knitted. I still wouldn't recommend the commute time to anyone but the vanpool made it bearable.
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I was half joking about the chauffeur, but with a wife making $500K, I figured they could afford it.
But there's gotta be *something*. Bus, van, something that would allow him to read instead of driving.
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I vote for a driver. You can skype your kids for those 70 minutes.
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This one is really interesting and there isn't an easy solution.
I think you're going to have to tough it out for a year or two while banking the obsence income your wife is earning. During that time, you'll need to keep showing her the math of "Investments of X yields this much in passive income", plus your salary, plus your pension.
If its about the money, the math will win over time. If she really loves her work, which some people do, you'll have to both keep working on quality of life decisions while you fulfill your contract. I think the comment someone made about a driver becomes half serious when you start getting past $2mil in net worth.
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Many great suggestions already.
My contribution to this conversation is to invite you to think creatively about how you can spend quality time with your children (since that seems to be your biggest concern/goal).
My own father had to work two jobs throughout my childhood and so I didn't see him as much as I would've liked. However, he came up with a great way to counteract that problem by devoting one day every weekend to us kids (he also made a point of some alone time with each of the three of us - usually at bedtime). Added benefit: my SAHM loved having the time off.
This means that during the week you do your job (and get chores out of the way) so that on weekends you can be present for your kids. You probably know this, but you don't have to do anything fancy with the kids: just follow their interests, go for long rambling walks, build forts out of boxes from furniture stores, raid the local library, cook lunch together, walk dogs at a shelter, etc.
I was a nanny for a very wealthy and busy couple. Every Saturday morning the dad and his young son would walk to the local coffee shop where they'd get their drinks, chat, draw silly things on napkins, watch people and then amble back home. The son cherished this ritual and didn't feel deprived by not seeing his dad other mornings. Apparently his dad would ask him "Are you happy [name of son]?" (they were a very direct family) and then they'd discuss how the son was feeling. I found out about this because one morning the son asked me if I was happy and we discussed our feelings (became a daily ritual for us).
In other words, the good news is that quality wins over quantity. Good luck as you find a way that works for you and your family. Your kids are lucky that you're valuing this and seeking ways to spend time with them.
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I don't see the geopad thing as a good option. That would mean days on end without seeing my kids. And we'd have to even further outsource the raising of the kids then we already do. Right now I'm the "evening parent", doing dinner, evening play time, etc until the wife gets home normally shortly before baths and bed.
Personal driver sounds insane and not something I had ever thought about. It's funny that some posters are giving me face punches for not having more NW given our high income and others are recommending a chauffeur or private jet! I guess it's good to have opinions on both ends of the spectrum.
Public transportation is an option, as are mass transit benefits (gov't subsidizes a portion of the cost). But it takes longer. Closer to 2hrs each direction. In a situation where time is my limited commodity moreso than money it's a hard choice to make. Once I'm spending 4 hours a day commuting, that basically removes any exercise time, which is an important part of my daily routine.
I have a neighbor who has a 4 hour bus commute daily, but she gets on her laptop during that time and her company counts those hours towards her daily worked. Sounds nice, I guess. But that's not an option for me.
I have a carpool option with just one person I'm trying to make work. Again, you're kind of chained to someone else's schedule, and of course picking up the other person adds a bit to travel time. But it does break up the monotony. His schedule hasn't allowed us to carpool at all this month. Maybe next month we'll be able to do it 1-2 days a week again.
I can't read in moving vehicles without getting pretty sick, anyways, so it's hard to re-capture that time for good. Maybe I could do push ups and air squats in the bus aisle? :)
Exhale, you're right! focusing on quality time is so important. I'm sure I could do more to work on that.
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I can't read in moving vehicles without getting pretty sick, anyways, so it's hard to re-capture that time for good. Maybe I could do push ups and air squats in the bus aisle? :)
I have the same sensitive inner-ear, which leads to me always driving (can't even ride shotgun for long). Unfortunately, we love to dive, which poses a problem. On dive trips, trans-derm scopolamine works, but not a good option for daily use. In addition, on a liveaboard in very heavy seas that overwhelmed my patch, I was introduced to a voodoo remedy--albeit while I was laughing at the idea and loudly calling out "BS." My wife (an MD) was also rolling her eyes. Of course, it worked, and I use it as an alternative to Scop, or in trying conditions, as a supplement: http://tinyurl.com/electric-wrist-band Might want to take a look for your carpool or transit rides.
EDIT: Darn. The linked product has been changed (within the past 10 years) so that you can't replace the battery. Concept still valid, but look around a bit.
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Personal driver sounds insane and not something I had ever thought about. It's funny that some posters are giving me face punches for not having more NW given our high income and others are recommending a chauffeur or private jet! I guess it's good to have opinions on both ends of the spectrum.
Yeah, well.... I'm the one who suggested it and got face-punched for not saving enough too.
Was just trying to think outside-of-the-box. Better than losing $500K in income a year.
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Hey MilitaryMan. It sounds like your commute is total suckage. I can relate. My commute is 75-90 minutes each way to drive 18 miserable miles. Moving isn't an option for us, so I've been working on ways to make the commute more enjoyable. Or, at least tolerable. Books on CD and podcasts are helping. I've also spent an inordinate amount of time organizing my music collection so I always have a playlist that fits my mood. It's a bandaid, not a cure. But it helps.
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Oy. Been a reader for a while, but going through some old posts. This one in particular tugs at my heart: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/04/13/what-does-early-retirement-mean-anyway/ with idyllic descriptions of mountain bike rides, breakfast as a family, and 2 month long summer vacations. Also reading “Your Money or your life” which is also like taking a punch in the face daily.
I'm a 35y/o with 3 young children. Spouse and I, through high earning and reasonable, albeit not mustachian, lifestyle have about $1.25M net worth. We could quit working now, move to Longmont and live like kings, actually like Mr and Mrs Mustache, on $50k a year forever enjoying our young daughters, per the 4% rule.
But alas, I am an indentured servant to the military because of degrees earned and have to work at least another 9.5 years (age 45). Or 12.5 years (age 48) until 60% pension + good affordable health care for my fam forever.
My job is actually quite enjoyable and rewarding. But about 3 months ago its location changed and now I have a daily 70 min commute each direction. KILL ME. My wife can walk or bike to work from our house. My life satisfaction has taken a big dive with the new commute.
So, what to do, gentle reader? I had always thought being in the military was a pretty good option, because, after all, everyone has a boss. And every job has frustrations and red tape, blah blah blah, and the military is not the worst place to do a job, no student debt, service to country, higher calling, blah blah. And then I happen across MMM and learn that NOT everyone has a boss! And NOT WORKING is actually an option.
I’ve tried suggesting to my wife that she stop working and we move close to my job. Because that would greatly improve my quality of life. So far she hasn’t bitten on that suggestion. While she likes the impact MMM has on our family’s grocery bills and spending and my new interest in investing, she isn’t really sold on the idea of “retiring” in her 30s. She sees these as her highest earning potential years (and she’s probably right – last year – a very good year, she pulled in $500k). Also, as you can see the whole after- child-care-and-transportation-and-work-clothes-and-lattes-she's-probably-not-really-making-any-money argument isn't applicable to us. I'm the lower earner, but my not working isn't an option.
So I’m stuck working for at least the next 9.5yrs. And the wife wants to keep working her overall rewarding, but also high powered high paying job.
In the above mentioned blog post, MMM encourages “pedal to the metal to get to retirement in 7-10 years” rather than wimpy attempts at 50. I guess I’m going to be wimpy and retire at 48 when my kids are no longer cuddly and small and cute. But I don’t really have much of a choice, do I?
I’m curious what other mustachians would do in this situation. Should I just hunker down and make the most of the life I signed up for, relishing the hours of books on CD I get to enjoy during my commute? Should I compel my wife to leave a high paying job she enjoys so we can all spend more time together as a family, since we clearly have much more than enough (also how do I do this)? At 48 will my best years be behind me? Should I get out at 45 leaving the 60% pension and health care and other benefits on the table? (would appreciate Nords take on this)
Longing for a simpler life. Whining complete.
Edit: "Paying back" the military is not an option.
I check in once a week or so to search for the keywords "military" and "Nords".
First, I understand exactly how you feel. It's the same way I felt when our daughter was born. My chain of command was totally uncomprehending about why I'd want to cut back on my 60-hour workweek to spend time with her. I should say: my childless, non-working-spouse chain of command.
I see that the other problem is the sucky commute, and I understand that there's not much you can do with the parameters. I'll re-iterate some of the suggestions and perhaps they can be tried occasionally ("respite") instead of being viewed simplistically as a permanent solution. I suggest that you throw money at the problem until you've extracted sufficient value from the spending. This is one situation where your commute is crossing the line from "frugal" to "deprivation".
1. Spending the week in the base quarters and coming home for the weekends.
It looks like the only way this would work is if you had a home childcare contractor ("nanny") who was willing to fill in from, say, 2 PM -7 PM each weekday. I've known dual-military servicemembers who've done this, and one problem is finding a reliable contractor. But when it works, it works great. I'd strongly suggest networking the neighbors, your kid's childcare/school staff, and a nearby temp agency. Even at 2-3 afternoons/week it could make the commute more tolerable.
2. Carpooling. Sounds wonderful, doesn't it? Until your co-carpooler gets stuck at work-- or until you get stuck. The problem with carpooling is that you always need a Plan B. In my case, for several years I had a beater car at my command that I could drive home when I could not commute by bicycle. If you need a backup before you're able to consider carpooling, then a beater car at work might be enough.
3. Audio books or podcasts. (I happen to know quite a few great podcasts.) A hired driver would be a treat once every few weeks if you could use the time to sleep or get your paperwork done, although I agree that it won't let you arrive late or go home early. It'll just solve the "homework" problem.
4. Combining a commute with exercise. Is there a place along the route where you could safely park the car and switch to your bicycle (or electric bicycle) for a workout? There are a few potential problems with this idea:
a. Weather. It's always good weather when you're cycling away from your car, and it's always raining (or snowing) when you're 20 miles away from it.
b. Forgetting something and not being able to simply cycle out to the car to pick it up. You end up staging a spare of everything at work.
c. Unsympathetic gate guards: "I'm sorry, if you don't have a reflective vest AND a blinking light then you can't ride on the base."
d. Flat tires, locker rooms, showers, dangerous/distracted drivers. No easy answers here.
e. The boss who seems to whimsically change work start times or keep everyone late for a "meeting". No easy answer here either, unless you want to read about it in your fitness report (and I did).
5. If 20 minutes of your 70 minutes is spent idling in line at the gate, then the park & ride option might let your bicycle cut in front of the vehicles to get through the gate faster.
6. Attitude. When is the ending date of this assignment with the 70-minute commute? Can you endure it for now as long as you and your spouse are making plans to not have it happen again at the next tour?
7. Rotation date. It might seem attractive to call your assignment officer for a hot fill billet, but you could end up in South Korea-- or Sierra Leone. The best way to approach this option would be for you and your spouse to decide what duty stations would inspire you to ask for an early rotation date. The danger is that even if you get a billet with a great commute, it might be even suckier in some other aspect of the job... probably both the duties and the chain of command.
8. I understand that combining leave and special liberty may be off the table, but at least once a quarter you should try to take Tue-Wed-Thur leave just for your mental health & morale. I agree that this is not a solution, but it'll give you a little breathing space and something to anticipate. If your command feels that you "just can't take leave", then that's a danger sign to them that you need to train a couple of subordinates to take over for you.
It sounds like you and your spouse have a good marriage. (I wish I had more readers in this situation.) I suspect a strong component of that marriage is because she feels confident that you're supporting her career. The problem is that immediate family & society may not be so supportive, and that puts a lot of pressure on a marriage even when outsiders have nothing to do with you two. The best book I've seen to handle the reaction of society toward your marriage/work situation is "When She Makes More". You're doing the right thing, and between you is probably fine. It's the rest of the world that can get in the way, and the book will give you the tools/communications tips to help you both feel better about it-- and to get your mothers-in-law on board too.
Your kids may be small, cuddly, and cute now. Parenting young children is always challenging, but in 10 years those cuties will be full-on teenagers. If you're going to save the best years of your life for the most challenging parenting, I'd suggest that you set your sights on the ages 11-17. It still takes a village, but it's a lot easier to find helpful villagers when your kids are smaller and cuter. Personally, parenting our daughter through middle school/high school was 4x more difficult (mentally & psychologically) than the earlier years (just physically and sleep deprivation). The good news is that when you're in their faces there for them during the teen years, they appear to launch from the nest with no flight failures.
So what should you do 9.5 years from now? (Well, this is why I say "one obligation at a time" instead of "one tour at a time".) In your case I'd try to sacrifice the next 9.5 years of your career for the most family-friendly (and commute-friendly) locations that you can find. You want to make it clear to your chain of command (and your assignment officer) that family is more important than promotions. This way hopefully people will put you places where you don't have to "break out" and "make the grade". There are plenty of jobs in the military that need career E-6s and O-4s instead of E-9s, CWOs, and admirals. If your spouse can take her career overseas with you then the assignment officer will probably be grateful. I suggest this because my spouse and I spent more of our military time outside CONUS than in it, and we were left alone to take the overseas jobs that had a great quality of life.
When you get to the end of that obligation, the assignment officer knows just as well as you do that you're one tour away from retirement. I suggest that you spend the next 9.5 years getting ready to transfer to the Reserves/Guard. Sure, you'll leave with 17 years of service but you'll only have to drill for three more good years to earn a pension at age 60. In the meantime your spouse's income will have solved all of your other financial challenges and the two of you will have more than enough investments to pay for the years between ages 45 and 60. This way when you get to the end of your obligation the assignment officer will hopefully understand that you're perfectly serious about the Reserves/Guard and will give you a good active-duty assignment. Either way (if you've educated yourself and prepared your family) you win.
If you go to the Reserves/Guard at 17 years then you'll have ACA health insurance or Tricare Retired Reserve, then at age 60 you'll have Tricare Prime, and at age 65 you'll have Medicare with Tricare For Life. But if your spouse has a couple more $500K years then the cost of health insurance loses relevance.
Two other remote possibilities: keep your eyes open for TERA (which may not be likely in your community) or any earlier option to transfer to the Reserves/Guard (which might not be permitted until your obligation is finished).
As far as I know indentured servitude is not legal in the US, so the military might have paid for your education but you can always pay it back to get out.
Why don't you quit working and let your wife continue to work? Am I missing something?
For everyone else on this forum who's never been in the military: when a servicemember says that they have an obligation, you should assume that they're not just going to say "I quit" or whip out their checkbook to pay it back. It's a contract that can only be broken by becoming disqualified to fulfill the duties or by breaking the rules badly enough to get fired. In most cases, it takes longer to get out of the contract than it does to fulfill the contract.
I've been on forums for over a decade and I've developed a pretty thick skin. I don't like the forums where the moderators say "Now, now, be nice to the newbies or we'll mute you." But geez, guys, when a new poster in the military tells you that they can't ditch their obligation, then it's probably polite to assume that they really can't get out of their obligation and to stop nagging them about trying harder to get out of it. If you're going to get into face-punching mode then stick to the expenses or savings rates and not the career advice.
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Thanks for sharing your situation. It must be very frustrating to have your options so drastically limited by a military contract. But it is what it is and you sound very dedicated and honorable that you are going to stick out the next 9 years fulfilling your debt to the best of your ability. I think the only thing you can do on that front is move to a mental acceptance. Try to make the most of your commute. I actually enjoy my commute (it isn't quite that long) but I love listening to the radio, planning my day, or just enjoying the quite alone time. As for wishing your wife would like to stay home with your kids and retire early to make things easier on the home front...I think acceptance is the only option there too. Some women aren't made for homemaking as their sole focus and one's that are willing to work hard enough to work their way up the corporate later are likely in that group. Having said that...she must love some aspect of motherhood, otherwise y'all wouldn't have done it 3 times over! LOL! Maybe she would consider semi retirement in a few years? Or starting a home based firm/business to keep in the loop? It is hard to make suggestions since she isn't really the one who has to want to make a change...and maybe that will come. Hopefully she will see your perspective and make some changes to make things work better for the both of you. In the mean time, just breathe. My dad's favorite saying is it will get better or get worse and then the decision will be come clear. Good luck!
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I'm 44, my husband is 46, our kids are 8 and 2.
I by no means feel like my best years are behind me. We are in our primes!
48 is not old.
If your wife likes her job, let her keep it...I love my children. I don't have the slightest desire to be with them 24/7, so your wife's needs in that respect should be a factor.
I totally would just stay in for the 60% pension.
And my spouse and I were in the Navy, I'm not gonna suggest you "pay it back". Ha! Doesn't work that way. But when I was in (early 90s) there was a big draw down and a bunch of my friends who were due to graduate from ROTC in 1994 were told "eh, we don't need you anymore, you're in the inactive reserves. Have fun." (after a $60k education)
Nords, I think just a lot of people here don't understand the meaning of "obligation" as it refers to the military. It's foreign to many. I live in Coastal So Cal, and many people here just don't "get it".
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The reason I'd asked about paying it back is that I was pretty certain that a friend of mine in the Navy had that option. He had USNA followed by some service and then a Master's for 1.5 years. He was discussing whether to choose to do ship or submarine or he could pay it back at $100K, but the latter wasn't a serious consideration for him because of the magnitude (this was 15 years ago).
Maybe I'm remembering wrong--it's been a while.
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Sounds like reading MMMs post on stoicism http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/10/02/what-is-stoicism-and-how-can-it-turn-your-life-to-solid-gold/ might help.
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Are the children school age yet? If not, is there a child care option near your work that might let you take one or more of them with you sometimes to get talking/ singing /silly car games time together? For that matter, if they're school age, is this something that might be possible in summer or on school breaks?
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The reason I'd asked about paying it back is that I was pretty certain that a friend of mine in the Navy had that option. He had USNA followed by some service and then a Master's for 1.5 years. He was discussing whether to choose to do ship or submarine or he could pay it back at $100K, but the latter wasn't a serious consideration for him because of the magnitude (this was 15 years ago).
Maybe I'm remembering wrong--it's been a while.
A lot of this depends on the state of the service at the time (are they actively reducing forces?), his area in the military (do they need people), and his level of education. For example, if he was relatively inexperienced and had gotten his master's on the Navy dime but at a civilian place - that's different than if you are a pilot or a doctor.
I got my master's on the Navy's dime (night school), and the requirement is to do the same # of years as the schooling, but they ran concurrently. I finished in 1996 and got out in 1997, so I'd fulfilled my obligation.
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The reason I'd asked about paying it back is that I was pretty certain that a friend of mine in the Navy had that option. He had USNA followed by some service and then a Master's for 1.5 years. He was discussing whether to choose to do ship or submarine or he could pay it back at $100K, but the latter wasn't a serious consideration for him because of the magnitude (this was 15 years ago).
Maybe I'm remembering wrong--it's been a while.
A lot of this depends on the state of the service at the time (are they actively reducing forces?), his area in the military (do they need people), and his level of education. For example, if he was relatively inexperienced and had gotten his master's on the Navy dime but at a civilian place - that's different than if you are a pilot or a doctor.
I got my master's on the Navy's dime (night school), and the requirement is to do the same # of years as the schooling, but they ran concurrently. I finished in 1996 and got out in 1997, so I'd fulfilled my obligation.
Yeah. He got a civilian Masters.
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About this unbreakable military contract that the OP is in and can't get out of - what would happen if one day they stopped showing up for work? What IS the penalty of breaking the contract? If their spouse earns $500k a year then they definitely shouldn't have any financial problems. (Though I understand he won't for moral reasons - this is just a hypothetical to help me understand better. I'm curious.)
Also, the question of $500k/year (though I accept this was a good year) adding up to only $1.25 million net worth has yet to be answered.
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About this unbreakable military contract that the OP is in and can't get out of - what would happen if one day they stopped showing up for work? What IS the penalty of breaking the contract? If their spouse earns $500k a year then they definitely shouldn't have any financial
Military prisons still have people turn big rocks into little rocks.
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About this unbreakable military contract that the OP is in and can't get out of - what would happen if one day they stopped showing up for work? What IS the penalty of breaking the contract? If their spouse earns $500k a year then they definitely shouldn't have any financial
Military prisons still have people turn big rocks into little rocks.
yeah. It is the military after all. If we don't have discipline in our military, we're in deep trouble as a nation.
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About this unbreakable military contract that the OP is in and can't get out of - what would happen if one day they stopped showing up for work? What IS the penalty of breaking the contract? If their spouse earns $500k a year then they definitely shouldn't have any financial problems. (Though I understand he won't for moral reasons - this is just a hypothetical to help me understand better. I'm curious.)
Also, the question of $500k/year (though I accept this was a good year) adding up to only $1.25 million net worth has yet to be answered.
The penalty for desertion is prison.
Not sure how the second question is relevant. But you seem quite insistent so I'll try to answer briefly. Taxes, Ivy League education for her, many years of education delaying earning, high COL area, full time child care + additional household help...this past years savings rate is about 60% post tax income. Years prior closer to 50%, I think.
Nords, you're amazing. Thanks for all you do for military folks!!!
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The reason I'd asked about paying it back is that I was pretty certain that a friend of mine in the Navy had that option. He had USNA followed by some service and then a Master's for 1.5 years.
That reminds me of a sea story. I'll admit up front that this is a first-world problem, but it's a cautionary tale about military service obligations.
In late 1986 I reported to student duty at the Naval Postgraduate School. In a few months I'd finish my USNA service obligation and be eligible for the nuclear bonus program. It paid $7200 at the end of every year you stayed on active duty, but if you signed a contract (three to five years) then it'd pay you $10K at the start of every year that you were on active duty.
I was already incurring an obligation at NPS (3:1 for the first year, 1:1 after that, 30 months of study for a total payback of 4.5 years) but hey, I was getting paid an O-3 salary to go to school in Monterey! The nuclear assignment officers were pushing the bonus contracts pretty hard because retention sucked at the height of the Evil Empire years as we expanded to a 600-ship Navy. They told us that our NPS obligation could be served concurrently with our bonus contract obligation. Sweet double score!! Eager nukes flocked to sign up, and I was sitting on the sidelines anxiously waiting out the clock for my turn before they "ran out of bonus money".
Suddenly, an ominous problem cropped up. The assignment officer had sent a letter to a classmate with the news that the Navy's nuclear bonus program had overlooked an important clause of Congress' enabling legislation: the NPS obligation had to be served first before any other obligations. They were so sorry, but since he'd already started NPS before signing his five-year bonus contract then he was now facing not a 4.5-year obligation but rather a 9.5-year obligation-- starting AFTER he graduated. Have a nice nuclear day!
Word spread rapidly, protest rumbled in the ranks, respectfully angry letters were routed up the chain of command, and the NPS admiral "suggested" to the assignment officers that they send a sacrificial apologist out to Monterey to face the crowd of irate nukes. In front of our skeptical mob of frustrated lieutenants (unknowingly including at least two future admirals) the steely-eyed O-4 assignment officer said:
"Sorry for all the trouble, guys. To make things right, if you've signed up for a bonus contract then we're willing to cancel it. You won't have to pay back the money we've already given you. However you'll either have to leave here and go back to sea if you want to sign up, or else finish your Monterey obligation before you can sign up again. For most of you here that's 4.5 years after graduation or nearly seven years from now."
Then he dangled the bait: "We're going to fix this piddling little issue with Congress. Our liaison officer is preparing corrective legislation to change the federal law next month from 'consecutive' to 'concurrent', so you'll be able to get what we originally wanted you to get. However that will only apply to those who sign up after the date of the corrective legislation and do not already have an existing obligation. For those of you here at Monterey, it would already be too late because you're incurring an obligation now. In order to show our sincere apologies for this confusion, we're willing to offer you a deal. If you sign a bonus contract now, while we're working on the corrective legislation, then we'll honor the concurrent obligation as soon as the law is changed. If you don't sign now then you won't be eligible for a bonus contract until you've completed your degree and served out your NPS obligation-- and again, for most of you here that's seven years from now. So we recommend that you sign a bonus contract today."
A crowd of eager nukes dashed to the front of the room to fight for a blank copy of the contract. I started to get up to join them. From the back of the room, over the rumbles of scampering feet and shoving elbows, a single voice was raised by Steve Moorhead (to whom I will forever be grateful): "Sir, what happens if Congress doesn't pass the corrective legislation this session?"
The assignment officer dismissively said "Oh, they'll pass it, but if they don't then I guess the obligations would continue to run consecutively until they do. We don't expect that to be a problem."
His response was almost inaudible among the noisily frantic scratching of government-issued Skilcraft ball-point pens signing bonus contracts.
I'd only known Steve for a few months but we'd already become pretty good drinking buddies. I decided to discuss Steve's question with my spouse before I signed anything. I dithered for several days but I ended up not signing because we were doing well with our savings and "It was only $10K/year". That's over $21K/year in 2014 dollars, or ~15% extra on today's O-3 total compensation.
A couple months later, Congress recessed without discussing the corrective legislation. It was tabled next session, too.
It wasn't "corrected" until late 1997. By then most of the "special" NPS nuclear bonus contracts were only a year from expiration.
In retrospect, the NPS Class of '89 nukes stayed Navy until retirement-- even Steve. However Steve and I were about the only guys who stayed by choice. Everyone else had obligated themselves to 9.5 years after graduation, which took most of them to the 16-year point.
As far as I know, today only a couple of us are financially independent-- and the other guy is a rear admiral so he's not at all about the money.
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About this unbreakable military contract that the OP is in and can't get out of - what would happen if one day they stopped showing up for work? What IS the penalty of breaking the contract? (Though I understand he won't for moral reasons - this is just a hypothetical to help me understand better. I'm curious.)
The penalty for unauthorized absence or desertion in the U.S. armed forces is at least as severe as the British armed forces.
Here's an excerpt from UCMJ Article 86 (UA) from the Manual for Courts-Martial.
http://www.militarylawyers.com/uploads/MCM-2012.pdf
The article starts on PDF page 297 and the punishments are discussed on page 299.
e. Maximum punishment.
(1) Failing to go to, or going from, the appointed
place of duty. Confinement for 1 month and forfeiture
of two-thirds pay per month for 1 month.
( 2 ) Absence from unit, organization, or other
place of duty.
(a) For not more than 3 days. Confinement for
1 month and forfeiture of two-thirds pay per month
for 1 month.
(b) For more than 3 days but not more than 30
days. Confinement for 6 months and forfeiture of
two-thirds pay per month for 6 months.
(c) For more than 30 days. Dishonorable discharge,
forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and
confinement for 1 year.
(d) For more than 30 days and terminated by
apprehension. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of
all pay and allowances, and confinement for 18
months.
( 3 ) From guard or watch. Confinement for 3
months and forfeiture of two-thirds pay per month
for 3 months.
(4) From guard or watch with intent to abandon.
Bad-conduct discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances,
and confinement for 6 months.
(5) With intent to avoid maneuvers or field exercises.
Bad-conduct discharge, forfeiture of all pay
and allowances, and confinement for 6 months.
Why, yes, as a matter of fact I did have to go to school to learn this stuff. It was a full semester at college and another few weeks as an O-4.
Are we going to have to add a separate "military only" section to these forums so that civilians will only have to read these posts if they want to?
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Oooh.... I guess my friend lucked out. I think he graduated in '96 or '97. :) I think his was consecutive though. Something about 3 years on a sub or 5 on a ship. He must have still had some of his undergraduate to pay off.
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Keep stashing the wife's income and make the most of your weekends with the family. Hang in there!
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Based on your replies, OP, I'm not sure if you're looking to vent or looking for solutions. I'm biased, but to me it seems as if you shot down the geobachelor idea down pretty quickly. You honestly can't go one or two nights without seeing your kids? You're in the military, man. That's what we do. People were in Sadr City for 15 months back in 2007. FIFTEEN MONTHS. Other people go ahead and move for a last assignment as full-time geobachelors (visiting home 1+ times per month). With a crash pad, a night or two will be a respite for you due to the fact that your commute is hell and you can just go there to sleep. Furthermore, you'd be more available to work longer those days, building up a bit more good will for jetting early later in the week.
EXAMPLE: Right now I live on one side of Africa. My wife lives on the other. We'll see each other once every 2-3 months or so. Are we going to die? No. If anything these times strengthen the relationship. 6 month deployments are hard, but luckily this isn't a deployment and we can steal some time to see each other. I fail to see how you can't handle a night per week away from the family but others can do it for months.
Reading while driving = motion sickness. I get it, happens to me as well. Go to sleep instead. This is another worthwhile solution that I feel you didn't really consider.
Basically I'm hearing you say that no solution is good enough. Nothing will work for your special snowflake situation. What do you want from us if you're not going to change anything? If it is just to vent say that and don't ask for answers. Plenty of us will vent with you.
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At the Naval War College we spent a day talking about the civilian/military divide. Back during WWII, everyone served, so everyone "got it" and now only like .5% of the United States population serves, so no one understands military life. I found this hard to believe, because everywhere I live has tons of other military folks. Reading some of these responses though...wow. I'm starting to understand the concern.
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No, you can't force your wife to quit the job she loves and is making bank with. ITA with the other posters about being married to some guy who has a midlife crisis and leaves you high and dry. There is no way in hell I would sign up for making myself much less employable. I love my kids, but being a SAHM would be my worst nightmare. Just no. I don't see being home with them all day as one big happy Hallmark moment, I'd be homicidal inside a month.
I could see asking her about moving half way so that you both have a 30 mile commute. Not fun, but doable.
You are stuck working for several more years because of a irrevocable choice you made. It sucks, but that's the situation. This is what I think of (among other, worse scenarios) whenever people offer the cheerful advice, "Just join the military!" Join the military if you want, but think long and hard about it first because there are major strings attached and very serious possible negative ramifications.
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Thank you for your service.
I cannot relate to the military experience, but I can relate to how a commute subtracts from your quality of life.
I understand there is no "getting out" of your contract. So, the question becomes, how can you deal with the commute?
I do think the option of getting some sort of "pad" closer to your work could make good sense. Is there anyway you can purchase something that can be an investment as well, either short or long term? Can you buy a twinhome and rent out the other half? Can you buy something that might also be appealing as a vacation rental and plan to convert it when you retire?
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I like Siobhan's reply. She made some good points. I am a civilian, but I used to work for the military, and the scenario that Siobhan laid out is the scenario that you often see with military families - the non-AD spouse has to move every 3 years, so never really starts a career, and then when the service member decides to leave him/her, he/she is screwed. It blows my mind that an individual would get into a position like that, but it happens a lot, and I'd say that it happens more often in the military life than amongst civilians.
Anyway, I do think it's reasonable to discuss your preference with your wife. That being said, if she's not willing to give up her career, then it's probably not going to happen! One compromise that I can think of would be to try to move someplace where you are halfway between your job and your wife's job. Or if your wife has an option to telecommute, maybe it makes sense to move closer to your job. That seems to be the most viable solution. (Besides just sucking it up and continuing on).
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I think your wife is counting her lucky stars that your latest transfer didn't involve relocating everybody.....
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What field does your wife work in that she can pull $500k? You don't have to give specifics, just some general ideas, please. Would love for my wife to pull that.
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http://www.army.mil/article/127763/Program_offers_partially_paid_break_from_
It's a long shot that you would qualify for or be interested in extending your service obligations, but perhaps a short term break while your wife brings home the bacon could help recalibrate your perspective.
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http://www.army.mil/article/127763/Program_offers_partially_paid_break_from_
It's a long shot that you would qualify for or be interested in extending your service obligations, but perhaps a short term break while your wife brings home the bacon could help recalibrate your perspective.
"It's not a full-pay sabbatical, however. Soldiers will get paid "two times 1/30th" of their base pay, according to Military Personnel Message 14-143, which describes CIPP in detail."
Something tells me that doesn't mean 1/15th of their salary?
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What field does your wife work in that she can pull $500k? You don't have to give specifics, just some general ideas, please. Would love for my wife to pull that.
corporate finance, Ivy league MBA, and an extraordinary year