Author Topic: cigarettes and gasoline: anyone made this comparison in their own mind?  (Read 19195 times)

Sid Hoffman

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 743
  • Location: Southwest USA
Re: cigarettes and gasoline: anyone made this comparison in their own mind?
« Reply #50 on: January 02, 2015, 12:00:01 PM »
This thread made me chuckle.  It appears many (most?) of the people in this thread are single or have no kids.  The only person I see in this thread who actually does have kids was obviously in support of using a car whenever needed.  Even more minority are those who've had their spouse leave them, so now on top of having to work full time, I only get a small amount of time to spend with my son.  MMM doesn't work and isn't divorced.  He gets unlimited time with his son, and for that he should be very thankful.  There's plenty of us who have no such luxury, so having and using a car (when needed) directly translates into getting to spend more time with my son.

That said, on nights I don't have my son I will often use my bike and optionally bike trailer if I need to go out for something and in fact I even try to specifically do all my grocery shopping on the days that my son isn't with me, so I have no reason to be away from him during those precious few hours I do actually get to hang out with him.  Parenting, especially while working full time and with only partial custody, is very different from living a life where you don't take care of anyone but yourself.  Life is easy when nobody depends on you for anything.

TerriM

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 507
Re: cigarettes and gasoline: anyone made this comparison in their own mind?
« Reply #51 on: January 02, 2015, 12:10:12 PM »
This thread made me chuckle.  It appears many (most?) of the people in this thread are single or have no kids.  The only person I see in this thread who actually does have kids was obviously in support of using a car whenever needed.  Even more minority are those who've had their spouse leave them, so now on top of having to work full time, I only get a small amount of time to spend with my son.  MMM doesn't work and isn't divorced.  He gets unlimited time with his son, and for that he should be very thankful.  There's plenty of us who have no such luxury, so having and using a car (when needed) directly translates into getting to spend more time with my son.

Totally agree.  I would complain about not having time, but I'm on these forums, so I won't bother, but yeah, I've contemplated how fast life has become compared to not having kids.  I don't feel like I have the time to try to bike a half hour when it will take 10 minutes to get home in a car.  Moreso, though, traveling by bike means 2 people getting exercise, and 2 people doing nothing useful except holding onto the handlebars (I have a cargo bike, so not using a trailer--the kids have to hold on).  In a car, my kids can work on their homework on the way home, so it's productive time for them.

TerriM

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 507
Re: cigarettes and gasoline: anyone made this comparison in their own mind?
« Reply #52 on: January 02, 2015, 12:12:04 PM »
No, I can't see the analogy. 

No one benefits by putting a cigarette into his mouth.  No one in any circumstances anywhere.

But many of us really can't function in our jobs /in our part of society without driving.  Adding an insulting "clown car" name to it may make some people feel better than others, but that doens't mean it's not the right choice for a whole lot of people.

+1 :)

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8492
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: cigarettes and gasoline: anyone made this comparison in their own mind?
« Reply #53 on: January 02, 2015, 07:43:45 PM »
It appears many (most?) of the people in this thread are single or have no kids.

I'm married and have three children.  What does that have to do with biking being better for your health, saving you money, and protecting the environment?

If you've decided that some other factor outweighs those considerations, that's fine.  That doesn't mean they aren't factors in the decision, it just means that you've personally decided your health, your stash, and your environment are worth sacrificing.

Would you send $1000 to Al Qaeda to get an extra hour of time with your son?  How about $1?  Do you think there is any value in knowing what your own personal Al Qaeda contribution has been?

I think most people drive out of habit, because our lives have been engineered around automobile consumption.  We're not consciously deciding that we would rather spend our trip to the store sitting in a comfy chair instead of getting 20 minutes of exercise.  We're not choosing dirtier air over healthier lungs.  We're not thinking about spending $2 in gas to see a $9 movie.  Those choices just sort of happen by default because people don't think about them.

If someone decides that the only way they can spend quality time with their children is to drive a car together, I think that's a pretty sad commentary on the state of their family.  I'm sorry, but it's not hard to think of better ways to spend time together.  Would you make the same argument if your kid was a smoker and you felt that smoking together really strengthened your relationship?



Elderwood17

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 525
  • Location: Western North Carolina
Re: cigarettes and gasoline: anyone made this comparison in their own mind?
« Reply #54 on: January 02, 2015, 07:58:31 PM »
Interesting thread.  I had not ever thought of comparing cigarettes to gasoline purchases but in the sense that both are items purchased without much thought by the average user (not suggesting any of you are average!) and can impact overall health, I understand the OPs point. 

Disclaimer - I don't bike, and am not sure I could pedal a bike up the hill to get out of my neighborhood.  I also use a lot more gas than necessary.  However, I appreciate the discourse of these forums and the point MMM makes about my gas expenditures are largely a result of decisions I make in terms of where I live and what I pursue. 

TerriM

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 507
Re: cigarettes and gasoline: anyone made this comparison in their own mind?
« Reply #55 on: January 02, 2015, 09:03:02 PM »
If someone decides that the only way they can spend quality time with their children is to drive a car together, I think that's a pretty sad commentary on the state of their family.  I'm sorry, but it's not hard to think of better ways to spend time together.  Would you make the same argument if your kid was a smoker and you felt that smoking together really strengthened your relationship?

That's not how I read his post.  I read it as "the sooner I get home, the more time I spend with my son."

Knapptyme

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 232
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Florida
Re: cigarettes and gasoline: anyone made this comparison in their own mind?
« Reply #56 on: January 02, 2015, 10:14:29 PM »
This thread made me chuckle.  It appears many (most?) of the people in this thread are single or have no kids. 

I have a kid and another on the way. I will admit that with an infant, traveling by bicycle is a little bit more challenging. I've heard and seen some pretty good rigging of a car seat in a bike trailer which I may end up trying when the next one arrives.

It all comes down to perspective and instilling that perspective in yourself and others around you. My son, for example, begs to go on bike rides with mom and dad (granted, he gets to sit comfortably in the trailer and fall asleep). He associates good things happening with biking, and I like instilling that perspective in him.

As for the single aspect, that also doesn't really ring true for me. My wife and I have long enjoyed our rides together. Usually the exercise, fresh air, and camaraderie provide an extra degree of bonding. We challenge each other to bike more often, and it's great. I feel very fortunate to have that situation, but never did I think that bicycling was more for single, childless people.

FIRE47

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 346
Re: cigarettes and gasoline: anyone made this comparison in their own mind?
« Reply #57 on: January 03, 2015, 09:10:42 AM »
No.

Quite simply there are many good reasons to use a car over using a bike.

I carpool to work in a very fuel efficient vehicle - you would be hard pressed to recognize any relevant amount of savings over commuting this was by riding a bike when compared to the cost of food for calories burned.

If you were to factor in the amount of time lost due to biking to work that could be better spent working overtime or on other more productive tasks from a monetary perspective either through saving or earning more, biking can be a significant loss financially speaking for people in certain circumstance for those who are still in the workforce.

I drive a used vehicle that is now worth more than when I purchased it and carpool to work in a high mpg car.

I have made the necessary changes to this area of my life, feel free to judge if you must.



« Last Edit: January 03, 2015, 09:12:46 AM by FIRE47 »

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 14192
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: cigarettes and gasoline: anyone made this comparison in their own mind?
« Reply #58 on: January 03, 2015, 09:59:29 AM »
Just to add to the chorus, I'm married with a kid.

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8492
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: cigarettes and gasoline: anyone made this comparison in their own mind?
« Reply #59 on: January 03, 2015, 10:09:43 AM »
Quite simply there are many good reasons to use a car over using a bike.

Sure there are.  There also many good reasons to use a bike over a car.  It just depends on your priorities.  Do you value convenience and flabby thighs or badassity and health and money and the environment?

In my case, I can bike commute to work in about 40 minutes or drive in about 35.  I'm effectively getting 40 minutes of exercise for only 5 additional minutes of my day. 

Is it less time efficient?  Sure, if you only measure the time spent commuting.  But if you account for the extra 40 minutes of my day I get back by not having to go for a run that day, then I'm actually saving myself 35 minutes per day.  This is the primary benefit for me, the time savings of staying fit by bike commuting. 

you would be hard pressed to recognize any relevant amount of savings over commuting this was by riding a bike when compared to the cost of food for calories burned.

People keep trying to make this argument, and you all know it's complete BS because you are not malnourished.  You aren't going to buy 1000 calories worth of food to bike for one hour, at any cost.  You're going to burn those 1000 calories off of your fat pockmarked ass.  Stop trying to compare the cost of calories when your flabby body is already carrying around all those surplus calories, making you tired and sick.

Unless your doctor has recommended that you get LESS exercise, biking will be good for you.  It will make you healthier.  It will save you money.  It will improve the air quality in your area and reduce the greenhouse gases in the atmosphere.  It will not send any of your hard earned dollars to the Middle East.  If you weren't going to exercise anyway then yes, it would cost you some of your time.  But since you are supposed to be exercising, it's effectively saving you time by combining your exercise with your commute. 

Snap out of it, folks.  Some of you drive out of necessity, but MOST of you drive out of habit, because you've never really thought about the alternative and its benefits.  Driving is familiar and easy.  You like sitting comfortably in your heated seat sipping your Starbucks as you drive to work.  I suggest you might also feel pretty good about yourself if you pedaled to work once in a while.  It's less convenient in the moment, but the sense of purpose and accomplishment it gives you is totally worth it.

NinetyFour

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6612
  • Location: Southwestern US
Re: cigarettes and gasoline: anyone made this comparison in their own mind?
« Reply #60 on: January 03, 2015, 10:27:56 AM »
Snap out of it, folks.  Some of you drive out of necessity, but MOST of you drive out of habit, because you've never really thought about the alternative and its benefits.  Driving is familiar and easy.  You like sitting comfortably in your heated seat sipping your Starbucks as you drive to work.  I suggest you might also feel pretty good about yourself if you pedaled to work once in a while.  It's less convenient in the moment, but the sense of purpose and accomplishment it gives you is totally worth it.

+1000.

I would add that walking is also a fantastic alternative to driving.  There is something special about directly encountering one's environment with one's feet on the ground.

FIRE47

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 346
Re: cigarettes and gasoline: anyone made this comparison in their own mind?
« Reply #61 on: January 03, 2015, 11:02:40 AM »
Quite simply there are many good reasons to use a car over using a bike.

Sure there are.  There also many good reasons to use a bike over a car.  It just depends on your priorities.  Do you value convenience and flabby thighs or badassity and health and money and the environment?


In my case, I can bike commute to work in about 40 minutes or drive in about 35.  I'm effectively getting 40 minutes of exercise for only 5 additional minutes of my

you would be hard pressed to recognize any relevant amount of savings over commuting this was by riding a bike when compared to the cost of food for calories burned.

People keep trying to make this argument, and you all know it's complete BS because you are not malnourished.  You aren't going to buy 1000 calories worth of food to bike for one hour, at any cost.  You're going to burn those 1000 calories off of your fat pockmarked ass.  Stop trying to compare the cost of calories when your flabby body is already carrying around all those surplus calories, making you tired and sick.

Unless your doctor has recommended that you get LESS exercise, biking will be good for you.  It will make you healthier.  It will save you money.  It will improve the air quality in your area and reduce the greenhouse gases in the atmosphere.  It will not send any of your hard earned dollars to the Middle East.  If you weren't going to exercise anyway then yes, it would cost you some of your time.  But since you are supposed to be exercising, it's effectively saving you time by combining your exercise with your commute. 

Snap out of it, folks.  Some of you drive out of necessity, but MOST of you drive out of habit, because you've never really thought about the alternative and its benefits.  Driving is familiar and easy.  You like sitting comfortably in your heated seat sipping your Starbucks as you drive to work.  I suggest you might also feel pretty good about yourself if you pedaled to work once in a while.  It's less convenient in the moment, but the sense of purpose and accomplishment it gives you is totally worth it.

The question was do you equate the price of gas to the price of cigarettes, my answer was no. We all know of the benefits of biking, that was not the point nor was i arguing that or any other various points for and against beyond my own specific circumstance.

And unless you are already consuming an excess of calories you will need to increase your caloric intake - so unless you were already in a habit of excess, or are in defiance of the laws of physics you are in fact required to consume more calories whether you choose to accept it or not.

If your preferred method of exercise is to bike to work so be it. We all have to make these calculations on our own.

In my case i quite litterally pay nothing for my commute as I barter services for the insignificant amount of my share of the carpools gas.

Lastly i do not have heated seats or consume starbucks my car does not even have power windows nor do i consume caffeine.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2015, 11:08:01 AM by FIRE47 »

JLee

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5669
Re: cigarettes and gasoline: anyone made this comparison in their own mind?
« Reply #62 on: January 04, 2015, 09:58:44 AM »
The kids thing seems like ultra-complainypants because you could just wait until you're retired at age 30 to have kids and then spend all your time with them. If that's too long to wait, get higher income jobs and retire even earlier. MMM and his wife did it on incomes that are relatively low by today's standards, so there's lots of room to do it earlier.

Rather than scraping out a few extra minutes with your kids after you risk your life driving your extremely expensive death machine home, why not spend all your time with your kids?

Yup, especially when you're starting at 30.  Brilliant plan!

.........

Static Void

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 103
  • Age: 56
  • Location: Silicon Valley Beach
Re: cigarettes and gasoline: anyone made this comparison in their own mind?
« Reply #63 on: January 04, 2015, 10:23:05 AM »
I heart this thread. Many interesting viewpoints!

It's a great comparison. Both are completely toxic addictions...

Cigarettes are a personal addiction. Many parts of the body interplay to keep the cycle going.

Gasoline is a societal addiction. We've built everything around cars, and parking, and stuff. Many parts of our society interact to keep the system going.

The staggeringly-primary reason bikes are "unsafe" is cars...

Quitting is hard.

P.S. I bike mostly, even for my 50 mile commute sometimes (with busses & trains involved). But we also have 3 cars, including one that's <15mpg.

jordanread

  • Guest
Re: cigarettes and gasoline: anyone made this comparison in their own mind?
« Reply #64 on: January 04, 2015, 05:22:56 PM »
So I think I get to be the first one who smoked (until recently) and drove everywhere (until not so recently). This viewpoint wasn't something that I'd ever considered before, but thinking back on it, there are a few similarities. When you are out of smokes, there isn't a hugely conscious decision to go grab another pack, it's just something that you do. When the gas tank gets low, it's similar. You just go and fill up. It needs to be done. I don't know how far I would take the addiction bit of it (since Eric, GuitarStv, sol, and NinetyFour all kind of nailed down that bit), but the mindlessness does seem to be similar enough that I could easily relate the two of them.

I also think that it is part of why a lot of us around these here parts get a bit touchy when someone says they can't bike, or start throwing around data regarding how dangerous it is, etc.  It's a defensive thing, because we do attack that mindlessness, and cars are a huge place where this manifests itself. Trying to defend your position just says that you haven't fully thought it through. Defensiveness is just a way to use excuses, and blame it on the fact that you feel attacked. If you've mindfully thought it through, looked at the data, tried it out for a bit, and still choose to drive, there is no defense required, because you've made that decision logically. We'll bring up other data points and challenge you, but that's because biking is awesome, is awesome for you, is awesome for the environment, and it would be irresponsible of us to just let that slide, since a vast majority of people haven't thought it through. For me, it's my altruistic selfishness. If I can convince you to bike, it makes biking better for me (and all other bikers), but it's also because, leaving out everything else, biking is cheap exercise, and it's good for you!! Damn me for trying to support you being healthy.

So yeah, back on topic, I could totally see similarities between smoking and gasoline consumption, but hadn't ever thought of it until now.

NinetyFour

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6612
  • Location: Southwestern US
Re: cigarettes and gasoline: anyone made this comparison in their own mind?
« Reply #65 on: January 04, 2015, 05:27:39 PM »
Even Dubbya said we are addicted to oil:

http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/america-is-addicted-to-oil/

greaper007

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1129
Re: cigarettes and gasoline: anyone made this comparison in their own mind?
« Reply #66 on: January 05, 2015, 10:31:27 AM »
The kids thing seems like ultra-complainypants because you could just wait until you're retired at age 30 to have kids and then spend all your time with them. If that's too long to wait, get higher income jobs and retire even earlier. MMM and his wife did it on incomes that are relatively low by today's standards, so there's lots of room to do it earlier.

Rather than scraping out a few extra minutes with your kids after you risk your life driving your extremely expensive death machine home, why not spend all your time with your kids?

Yeah, we don't all make six figure salaries out of school.   But I know based on other threads you have some sort of narcissistic personality disorder that causes you to troll threads with what you perceive as your accomplishments.   Maybe you've been in San Francisco too long, or you just don't look things up.    The median household income in the US is $51,900.   So the mustache's family income was something like 4 times the national median.   I'm not really sure how that would be considered low by today's standards.

skunkfunk

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1057
  • Age: 33
  • Location: Oklahoma City
Re: cigarettes and gasoline: anyone made this comparison in their own mind?
« Reply #67 on: January 05, 2015, 01:51:04 PM »
It now cost more to bike in calories than to drive a used efficient car.

numbers please? quick calculation shows (31500kcal/gallon)/(40miles/gallon)=787kcal/mile driven

50kcal/mile cycling is a high (conservative) estimate
. Fuel cost to drive car 40 miles = 1.80.   1600 calories to bike 40 miles = $4.00 in food.   Bikers here ignore reality for some reason.    Biking is a high level of danger.  If you bike consistently you have a great risk of death or serious injury which on average outweighs health advantages.

I don't really change my eating because I've biked. I eat too much, and am still thin, so whatever. Barely biked at all this month (I have plenty of excuses, I'm always full of excuses) and the food budget didn't budge.

Tangentially related: Politically I lean towards radical environmentalist, I'm pro-biking and anti-gasoline-buying, and I drove the 5 miles to work today in a 46 year old steel cage at 8 miles per gallon, except it was 7 miles because I took the interstate to make it faster. I also cut several different people off on the interstate because I couldn't get from one on-ramp to the other through all those jerk-faced tailgaters.

Sigh, I've got problems.

BPA

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1191
Re: cigarettes and gasoline: anyone made this comparison in their own mind?
« Reply #68 on: January 06, 2015, 06:34:12 AM »
This thread made me chuckle.  It appears many (most?) of the people in this thread are single or have no kids.  The only person I see in this thread who actually does have kids was obviously in support of using a car whenever needed.  Even more minority are those who've had their spouse leave them, so now on top of having to work full time, I only get a small amount of time to spend with my son.  MMM doesn't work and isn't divorced.  He gets unlimited time with his son, and for that he should be very thankful.  There's plenty of us who have no such luxury, so having and using a car (when needed) directly translates into getting to spend more time with my son.

That said, on nights I don't have my son I will often use my bike and optionally bike trailer if I need to go out for something and in fact I even try to specifically do all my grocery shopping on the days that my son isn't with me, so I have no reason to be away from him during those precious few hours I do actually get to hang out with him.  Parenting, especially while working full time and with only partial custody, is very different from living a life where you don't take care of anyone but yourself.  Life is easy when nobody depends on you for anything.

I've been the single parent of two children for 14 years. I share custody with my ex.  I did not have a car and worked full-time for much of it.  Because I could get by without a car and am frugal in other ways, I managed to cut back to part-time after several years and thus spent more time with my children.  This post of yours sounds just complainy-pants to me. 
 

greaper007

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1129
Re: cigarettes and gasoline: anyone made this comparison in their own mind?
« Reply #69 on: January 06, 2015, 11:41:26 AM »
The kids thing seems like ultra-complainypants because you could just wait until you're retired at age 30 to have kids and then spend all your time with them. If that's too long to wait, get higher income jobs and retire even earlier. MMM and his wife did it on incomes that are relatively low by today's standards, so there's lots of room to do it earlier.

Rather than scraping out a few extra minutes with your kids after you risk your life driving your extremely expensive death machine home, why not spend all your time with your kids?

Yeah, we don't all make six figure salaries out of school.   But I know based on other threads you have some sort of narcissistic personality disorder that causes you to troll threads with what you perceive as your accomplishments.   Maybe you've been in San Francisco too long, or you just don't look things up.    The median household income in the US is $51,900.   So the mustache's family income was something like 4 times the national median.   I'm not really sure how that would be considered low by today's standards.

Wow. I said nothing about myself or my "accomplishments" in that post. In fact, there was nothing personal in that post at all, unlike yours which is basically a personal attack. I haven't actually posted anything about what I consider my accomplishments in any of my posts on this forum. Who knows, you might even be impressed if I did (they are not really financial in nature), but I haven't felt like it.


My statement that MMM and his wife had relatively low compensation by today's standards is defensible. Their starting salaries were something like 60k and 45k, which are laughably low by the standards for the software engineering industry today. Similarly, their peak household income was around 1/2 to 1/3 of what an individual senior software engineer can command today. For all I know, they may have been underpaid in their day too, but I'm not familiar with historical compensation practices. I am, however, familiar with how large software companies pay today and MMM could have earned a lot more money if he were starting today. Even if he went back into the industry, he could earn a lot more money now than he ever did in the past, despite his experience being dated (he's even said that himself in some posts).

I don't know why you mention the median US salary. The median US savings rate is something like 5%, but that doesn't mean we would say 5% is a decent savings rate. It's atrocious, despite being the median. Savings rate is not a random variable where some supernatural force rolls dice and imposes a savings rate on you. It's within your control. Similarly, your income level is not imposed on you by magical forces. It's something you control. If you aren't being paid enough, you can always earn more (assuming you live in a free society like the USA).

Yeah, like I said, this seems to be the tone of all your posts.   You seem unable to understand that not everyone is going to be able to make $100k+ out of school, most people never see that kind of pay.   It has nothing to do with hard work or ability, most of it is just the aggregate of the economy and luck.    If the national median is $58,000, then your supposed "just get a better job" answer is 2-3 standard deviations about average.   That's some pretty rarefied air that isn't going to be possible for most jobs.    Here's an idea, go find a cop, fireman, teacher or solider that lost his or her family after they were deployed 4+ times in a decade and tell them what you wrote on here.   I bet you don't have the balls.

Hey, my dad was a real bum.   He didn't see me until I was 6 weeks old.   He was wasting his time at 29 flying an F-14 off an aircraft carrier when the Iranian hostage crisis hit.    He was supposed to be home for my birth but instead he had to fly migcaps over the failed rescue attempt.   All for $10,000 a year.   He should have just done something else and retired at 30.   What a loser, didn't he know he could just get a different job?

I'm not sure if perhaps you're on the spectrum and can't really process social emotional empathy for others plight, or you're just kind of a douche.   Things don't really work the way you're proposing them.   $65k a year was a ton of money when MMM graduated, it still is.   Like I said, that's more than most households make in this country.    Not losers on meth, hard working people that get up and go to work everyday.   I graduated from college in 2004 and I didn't have a single friend that made over $40k.   I was an airline pilot and started at $17k, I didn't see $40k until I upgraded to captain.   That's a job where people actually die when you screw up, and a few of my friends did.

greaper007

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1129
Re: cigarettes and gasoline: anyone made this comparison in their own mind?
« Reply #70 on: January 06, 2015, 11:48:03 AM »
This thread made me chuckle.  It appears many (most?) of the people in this thread are single or have no kids.  The only person I see in this thread who actually does have kids was obviously in support of using a car whenever needed.  Even more minority are those who've had their spouse leave them, so now on top of having to work full time, I only get a small amount of time to spend with my son.  MMM doesn't work and isn't divorced.  He gets unlimited time with his son, and for that he should be very thankful.  There's plenty of us who have no such luxury, so having and using a car (when needed) directly translates into getting to spend more time with my son.

That said, on nights I don't have my son I will often use my bike and optionally bike trailer if I need to go out for something and in fact I even try to specifically do all my grocery shopping on the days that my son isn't with me, so I have no reason to be away from him during those precious few hours I do actually get to hang out with him.  Parenting, especially while working full time and with only partial custody, is very different from living a life where you don't take care of anyone but yourself.  Life is easy when nobody depends on you for anything.

I've been the single parent of two children for 14 years. I share custody with my ex.  I did not have a car and worked full-time for much of it.  Because I could get by without a car and am frugal in other ways, I managed to cut back to part-time after several years and thus spent more time with my children.  This post of yours sounds just complainy-pants to me.

Everyone's circumstances are different though.   Some people live in an area without bike or public transportation infrastructure.   Some people can't afford to live close enough to their jobs to bike, I was based in White Plains and Dulles on $40,000 a year when I was working.   I had to commute in by plane in order to find somewhere to live that was affordable.   I probably would have been living with my parents if I was divorced and had to pay alimony and child support.   Your child's parent might live beyond biking distance etc.   

Why are you focusing on his negatives (driving).   And instead congratulating him for actually biking when he's able to?  The majority of people in this country never ride their bikes to the store, let alone ride a bike at all.

I have empathy for his plight.

FIRE47

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 346
Re: cigarettes and gasoline: anyone made this comparison in their own mind?
« Reply #71 on: January 06, 2015, 06:04:06 PM »
This thread made me chuckle.  It appears many (most?) of the people in this thread are single or have no kids.  The only person I see in this thread who actually does have kids was obviously in support of using a car whenever needed.  Even more minority are those who've had their spouse leave them, so now on top of having to work full time, I only get a small amount of time to spend with my son.  MMM doesn't work and isn't divorced.  He gets unlimited time with his son, and for that he should be very thankful.  There's plenty of us who have no such luxury, so having and using a car (when needed) directly translates into getting to spend more time with my son.

That said, on nights I don't have my son I will often use my bike and optionally bike trailer if I need to go out for something and in fact I even try to specifically do all my grocery shopping on the days that my son isn't with me, so I have no reason to be away from him during those precious few hours I do actually get to hang out with him.  Parenting, especially while working full time and with only partial custody, is very different from living a life where you don't take care of anyone but yourself.  Life is easy when nobody depends on you for anything.

I've been the single parent of two children for 14 years. I share custody with my ex.  I did not have a car and worked full-time for much of it.  Because I could get by without a car and am frugal in other ways, I managed to cut back to part-time after several years and thus spent more time with my children.  This post of yours sounds just complainy-pants to me.

Everyone's circumstances are different though.   Some people live in an area without bike or public transportation infrastructure.   Some people can't afford to live close enough to their jobs to bike, I was based in White Plains and Dulles on $40,000 a year when I was working.   I had to commute in by plane in order to find somewhere to live that was affordable.   I probably would have been living with my parents if I was divorced and had to pay alimony and child support.   Your child's parent might live beyond biking distance etc.   

Why are you focusing on his negatives (driving).   And instead congratulating him for actually biking when he's able to?  The majority of people in this country never ride their bikes to the store, let alone ride a bike at all.

I have empathy for his plight.

How dare you call into question these people's ability to look down their nose at others! Didn't you know that is the greatest reward of this lifestyle?

sol

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8492
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Pacific Northwest
Re: cigarettes and gasoline: anyone made this comparison in their own mind?
« Reply #72 on: January 06, 2015, 07:06:01 PM »
How dare you call into question these people's ability to look down their nose at others! Didn't you know that is the greatest reward of this lifestyle?

I've been "looking down my nose" at smokers my entire life.  They literally smell bad.  They are ruining their own bodies.  They are wasting money.  All because they lack the constitution to make better choices.  Yes, I freely admit to judging them negatively and I don't feel any need to apologize for that.

Russ

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2213
  • Age: 28
  • Location: Boulder, CO
Re: cigarettes and gasoline: anyone made this comparison in their own mind?
« Reply #73 on: January 06, 2015, 07:30:26 PM »
Yeah, call it looking down the nose if you want but social pressure can be a very powerful persuasive tool

jordanread

  • Guest
Re: cigarettes and gasoline: anyone made this comparison in their own mind?
« Reply #74 on: January 06, 2015, 07:38:02 PM »
<accent type="cowboy">
Around these here parts, we call them there things a good 'ol fashioned face punch
</accent>

BPA

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1191
Re: cigarettes and gasoline: anyone made this comparison in their own mind?
« Reply #75 on: January 07, 2015, 05:54:42 AM »
This thread made me chuckle.  It appears many (most?) of the people in this thread are single or have no kids.  The only person I see in this thread who actually does have kids was obviously in support of using a car whenever needed.  Even more minority are those who've had their spouse leave them, so now on top of having to work full time, I only get a small amount of time to spend with my son.  MMM doesn't work and isn't divorced.  He gets unlimited time with his son, and for that he should be very thankful.  There's plenty of us who have no such luxury, so having and using a car (when needed) directly translates into getting to spend more time with my son.

That said, on nights I don't have my son I will often use my bike and optionally bike trailer if I need to go out for something and in fact I even try to specifically do all my grocery shopping on the days that my son isn't with me, so I have no reason to be away from him during those precious few hours I do actually get to hang out with him.  Parenting, especially while working full time and with only partial custody, is very different from living a life where you don't take care of anyone but yourself.  Life is easy when nobody depends on you for anything.

I've been the single parent of two children for 14 years. I share custody with my ex.  I did not have a car and worked full-time for much of it.  Because I could get by without a car and am frugal in other ways, I managed to cut back to part-time after several years and thus spent more time with my children.  This post of yours sounds just complainy-pants to me.

Everyone's circumstances are different though.   Some people live in an area without bike or public transportation infrastructure.   Some people can't afford to live close enough to their jobs to bike, I was based in White Plains and Dulles on $40,000 a year when I was working.   I had to commute in by plane in order to find somewhere to live that was affordable.   I probably would have been living with my parents if I was divorced and had to pay alimony and child support.   Your child's parent might live beyond biking distance etc.   

Why are you focusing on his negatives (driving).   And instead congratulating him for actually biking when he's able to?  The majority of people in this country never ride their bikes to the store, let alone ride a bike at all.

I have empathy for his plight.

How dare you call into question these people's ability to look down their nose at others! Didn't you know that is the greatest reward of this lifestyle?

He claims it wasn't possible to be a parent and not drive a car.  His "chuckling" was his looking down his nose.

I agree that not everyone lives where there is public transportation, but he didn't mention such.  Just a "you can't do this if you have kids" type of post.  You can.  Plenty of us have.  That's why we spoke up. 

And for the record, I was making $39k and living in Canada when I was doing this.  A public transit strike during the winter occurred during this time and I still managed.  Because I am frugal, I didn't need to move back in with my parents (and couldn't have anyway since one of whom was dead and the other was less well off than I was).  He can make all of the excuses he wants.  It's his life and his decision, but don't claim that the only parent on the thread who commented is in favour of driving a car and get perturbed when people correct you.

I know from previous posts that many of the others here have kids and spouses. I know that lots of people live good lives without consuming much whether it be gasoline, cigarettes, or other material goods.  I also get that for people not familiar with this way of life it can seem incredulous that others live differently and problem solve effectively.  I've spent the last eight years working part-time and will still retire early.  That wouldn't have been the case for me if I'd decided to get a car when my ex and I split.  It's called optimization, not looking down one's nose.

And the expression of this sentiment is the good ol' fashioned facepunch.  ;)

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 14192
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: cigarettes and gasoline: anyone made this comparison in their own mind?
« Reply #76 on: January 07, 2015, 06:03:13 AM »
My name is GuitarStv, and I fully endorse BPA's response.

jordanread

  • Guest
Re: cigarettes and gasoline: anyone made this comparison in their own mind?
« Reply #77 on: January 07, 2015, 07:35:39 AM »
[...]
And the expression of this sentiment is the good ol' fashioned facepunch.  ;)

I knew I got the apostrophe in the wrong spot.


BPA

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1191
Re: cigarettes and gasoline: anyone made this comparison in their own mind?
« Reply #78 on: January 07, 2015, 08:24:05 AM »
[...]
And the expression of this sentiment is the good ol' fashioned facepunch.  ;)

I knew I got the apostrophe in the wrong spot.

ha ha And I made "face punch" one word instead of two.  Tell you what.  I won't look down my nose at you if you don't look down your nose at me.  ;)  I'm short so that shouldn't be too hard. 

jordanread

  • Guest
Re: cigarettes and gasoline: anyone made this comparison in their own mind?
« Reply #79 on: January 07, 2015, 08:54:26 AM »
[...]
And the expression of this sentiment is the good ol' fashioned facepunch.  ;)

I knew I got the apostrophe in the wrong spot.

ha ha And I made "face punch" one word instead of two.  Tell you what.  I won't look down my nose at you if you don't look down your nose at me.  ;)  I'm short so that shouldn't be too hard.

Deal.

greaper007

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1129
Re: cigarettes and gasoline: anyone made this comparison in their own mind?
« Reply #80 on: January 07, 2015, 11:02:55 AM »
This thread made me chuckle.  It appears many (most?) of the people in this thread are single or have no kids.  The only person I see in this thread who actually does have kids was obviously in support of using a car whenever needed.  Even more minority are those who've had their spouse leave them, so now on top of having to work full time, I only get a small amount of time to spend with my son.  MMM doesn't work and isn't divorced.  He gets unlimited time with his son, and for that he should be very thankful.  There's plenty of us who have no such luxury, so having and using a car (when needed) directly translates into getting to spend more time with my son.

That said, on nights I don't have my son I will often use my bike and optionally bike trailer if I need to go out for something and in fact I even try to specifically do all my grocery shopping on the days that my son isn't with me, so I have no reason to be away from him during those precious few hours I do actually get to hang out with him.  Parenting, especially while working full time and with only partial custody, is very different from living a life where you don't take care of anyone but yourself.  Life is easy when nobody depends on you for anything.

I've been the single parent of two children for 14 years. I share custody with my ex.  I did not have a car and worked full-time for much of it.  Because I could get by without a car and am frugal in other ways, I managed to cut back to part-time after several years and thus spent more time with my children.  This post of yours sounds just complainy-pants to me.

Everyone's circumstances are different though.   Some people live in an area without bike or public transportation infrastructure.   Some people can't afford to live close enough to their jobs to bike, I was based in White Plains and Dulles on $40,000 a year when I was working.   I had to commute in by plane in order to find somewhere to live that was affordable.   I probably would have been living with my parents if I was divorced and had to pay alimony and child support.   Your child's parent might live beyond biking distance etc.   

Why are you focusing on his negatives (driving).   And instead congratulating him for actually biking when he's able to?  The majority of people in this country never ride their bikes to the store, let alone ride a bike at all.

I have empathy for his plight.

How dare you call into question these people's ability to look down their nose at others! Didn't you know that is the greatest reward of this lifestyle?

He claims it wasn't possible to be a parent and not drive a car.  His "chuckling" was his looking down his nose.

I agree that not everyone lives where there is public transportation, but he didn't mention such.  Just a "you can't do this if you have kids" type of post.  You can.  Plenty of us have.  That's why we spoke up. 

And for the record, I was making $39k and living in Canada when I was doing this.  A public transit strike during the winter occurred during this time and I still managed.  Because I am frugal, I didn't need to move back in with my parents (and couldn't have anyway since one of whom was dead and the other was less well off than I was).  He can make all of the excuses he wants.  It's his life and his decision, but don't claim that the only parent on the thread who commented is in favour of driving a car and get perturbed when people correct you.

I know from previous posts that many of the others here have kids and spouses. I know that lots of people live good lives without consuming much whether it be gasoline, cigarettes, or other material goods.  I also get that for people not familiar with this way of life it can seem incredulous that others live differently and problem solve effectively.  I've spent the last eight years working part-time and will still retire early.  That wouldn't have been the case for me if I'd decided to get a car when my ex and I split.  It's called optimization, not looking down one's nose.

And the expression of this sentiment is the good ol' fashioned facepunch.  ;)

First off, I think it's commendable that you were able to accomplish what you did under the circumstances you were presented with.   Seriously.

I do agree that the beginning of his post was a little derogatory, but I read that to be more in line with the stress he's dealing with in his own life than putting others down.   I think we have to recognize that this forum, like all lifestyle forums I've ever been on, sometimes devolves into ridiculous competitions instead of focusing on ways to maximize happiness by eschewing certain creature comforts.    If the poster was spending  3+ hours biking to transport his son on what may very well be short weekend visits, I think that would be more detrimental to a happy balanced life than driving a cheap economy car that allowed him to maximize time spent interacting with his son would be.   We have to be careful that we don't turn into the record store clerk that feels so marginalize by his interests that he derides the taste of others in order to boost his ego.   We have to use our knowledge for good instead of evil.

Now, if he came on and said that we were all losers tying up roads and risking our lives by biking, while he was doing the sensible thing and transporting two people in an Escalade, then of course I wouldn't defend him.   But that wasn't his post.

It sounds like you had a different kind of job than I did.   I had to switch domiciles every 6 months or so and it was generally to an extremely high cola.   Try riding a bike to a large airport, it's nearly impossible.   I was only able to do that when I was based in Rochester NY.   So I generally spent the week living like an undocumented worker in a house with 30 other people while I flew my line, and came home for 3-4 days.    I could only afford to have a home to come to because my wife made twice as much as me.    Like I said, if I lived in a crashpad I wouldn't be able to have my kids over and I definitely wouldn't be able to keep an apartment on my low pay with child support and alimony.    Every situation is different.