Author Topic: Do you follow MMM investment order?  (Read 1104 times)

poetdereves

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Do you follow MMM investment order?
« on: August 09, 2022, 11:55:42 AM »
DW and I have been having recent talks about exactly what to do with our extra money, what our realistic time horizon is for cutting back on work, what we value spending time/money on, etc. We sit down and have these talks every year or so, but this is our first year with a kid, so we are open to the idea that our goals may shift a bit considering our kid and the one or two more of them we may have. We have done a recent case study, so I won't go completely in depth with our numbers here, but this is the gist of where we are:

-$200k gross income
-Two rental properties that provide $18k cash flow annually after all expenses (we don't touch it currently and it continues to grow in a business account with the goal of purchasing more real estate investments)
-Ability to max out wife's 401k, HSA, IRAs for both of us, a 529 for our kid, and still more left over for taxable investments (~$70k total available for investments; taxable/non taxable)
-Only have mortgage debt and a small amount of student loans at very low interest rates.

If we follow the MMM investment order we are able to reach all 8 steps, but we can't really decide if it's what we want to do. We know that we lower our income tax burden, but we aren't necessarily convinced that we want to put all our money into so many accounts that have so many restrictions. With our current income and the pay increases coming barring any big issues, we could stop working completely and live off passive income if we did the following:

-Invest the minimum amounts to get company match in 401k and HSA.
-Invest all other money into VTSAX with the goal of some day drawing off of it to supplement our income.
-Use money that cash flows from rentals plus some of our Vanguard money to buy a similar rental each year.

In 7 years, at 40 years old, we would have:

-9 rentals giving us ~$80k in cash flow annually.
-$400k+ in VTSAX which would provide another $16k annually at a 4%SWR.
-$300k+ in 401k and HSA.

Sure, we would pay more in taxes now, but we'd have a ton of tax savings and depreciation from the rentals and only have to pay long term capital gains on the VTSAX withdrawals. That doesn't really seem that bad to me. We would be 40 years old and be able to have ~$100k spending annually, have paid down quite a few rentals substantially with the ability to cash out refinance indefinitely and use that for tax free spending if we wanted to. Not really a bad plan in my mind, but in no way does it follow the common investing steps for most FIRE people.

What do you think? Is this a bad idea? Did you FIRE people always follow the MMM investment order? Anyone else doing something similar??

SweatingInAR

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Re: Do you follow MMM investment order?
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2022, 12:23:46 PM »
I do follow it entirely!
My work even lets me max out a Mega Backdoor Roth, which amounts to an extra ~$30k Roth money in my 401k account each year. I know that when it is time to RE I can live out of taxable funds for the first 5+ years and start a "Roth conversion ladder" from there.

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/11/11/how-much-is-too-much-in-your-401k/

You can easily do the same. Max out retirement accounts to save on taxes now, and then start a conversion ladder once you pull the plug and keep your income in a lower tax bracket.

-Invest the minimum amounts to get company match in 401k and HSA.
-Invest all other money into VTSAX with the goal of some day drawing off of it to supplement our income.
-Use money that cash flows from rentals plus some of our Vanguard money to buy a similar rental each year.

lifeisshort123

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Re: Do you follow MMM investment order?
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2022, 03:32:55 PM »
I might be missing it - but can you post a link to the “perfect MMM investment order”?

poetdereves

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RWD

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Re: Do you follow MMM investment order?
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2022, 03:35:19 PM »
I might be missing it - but can you post a link to the “perfect MMM investment order”?
No one said "perfect" but this is the usual link on the forums:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/investment-order/msg1333153/#msg1333153

Gremlin

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Re: Do you follow MMM investment order?
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2022, 03:45:03 PM »
I’m not going to answer your question directly, as I’m Australian and the optimal investment strategy is different for us. But as someone who has both investment properties and equities, the prospect of 9 investment properties sounds unpleasant to me. You need virtually no more time to manage an ETF whether it has $10k or $10m in it. But you don’t get economies of scale in managing IPs. If one of the reasons to FIRE is to take control of your time, then being in an asset class that sucks a lot of time (at that level of investment) is something you would want to accept eyes wide open.

lifeisshort123

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Re: Do you follow MMM investment order?
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2022, 03:46:41 PM »
Thanks so much for posting! Makes sense to me now!

MDM

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Re: Do you follow MMM investment order?
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2022, 04:55:02 PM »
In 7 years, at 40 years old, we would have:

-9 rentals giving us ~$80k in cash flow annually.
As the I.O. mentions, "Priorities above apply when income is primarily through W-2 earnings.  For those running their own businesses (e.g., rental property owner, small business owner, etc.), putting money into that business might come somewhere before, in parallel with, or after step 5."

The effect of depreciation losses on your AGI and thus your marginal tax rate may influence your choice of Traditional versus Roth for any tax-advantaged investments, but given that Roth will (almost) always be better than taxable, it is not clear why one would prefer taxable over tax-advantaged for long term investing.

Zikoris

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Re: Do you follow MMM investment order?
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2022, 12:03:07 AM »
Sort of. The Canadian advice is:

0: Pay off any high interest debts and establish emergency fund based on your risk tolerance
1: Max out your contributions to your TFSA
2: Contribute to your RRSP (remember that $25,000 can be used for a down payment through the first time home buyer's plan if you have not owned a house in the last 4 or 5 years)
3: Pay off your mortgage and low interest debt
4: Invest in non-registered funds

I started MMM with a small emergency fund and no debt or mortgage, so 0 and 3 were out from day one. On January 1st I auto-max my TFSA with a one-shot transfer from my non-registered account, and do the same for my RRSP when that becomes available.

So while technically I do those steps, other than two days per year (RRSP Day and TFSA Day), the only thing I do with any regularity is put money into my non-registered account.

simonsez

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Re: Do you follow MMM investment order?
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2022, 10:19:20 AM »
Thanks so much for posting! Makes sense to me now!
I recommend reading all the topics that have been stickied if you haven't before.  It will take some time but should greatly enhance knowledge and familiarity with concepts frequently espoused on this forum.  Then you have educated forum members who don't post as much redundancy.  Win-win for everyone!

zolotiyeruki

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Re: Do you follow MMM investment order?
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2022, 03:10:09 PM »
You're in a good position--you're on track to retire early.  At this point, it's a matter of optimization.  And I think you'll find that following either path will move your FIRE date by a whole lot.

But here are a few thoughts:
--Having nine rentals is a job, unless you hire a management company, which reduces your rate of return. If "managing rentals" is part of your vision for retirement, great!  But keep the reality in mind.
--You mention that you're concerned about having all your funds tied up in accounts that are not as liquid as, say, a taxable brokerage account.  That's true.  However, a Roth Pipeline is a workaround designed for this specific situation, and it is a well-trod path.  It's nothing to be afraid of.
--Your second scenario appears to involve quitting work now, but still contributing to the 401k and HSA.  Those seem to be mutually exclusive--you have to be employed in order to contribute to a 401k.  Am I misunderstanding something?  Or did you mean that you'd continue working for 7 years, and then quit?
--Whatever money you have at step 8 is going to get taxed as income, whether you then invest it in real estate or index funds.  At that point, it becomes a question of "which is a better investment?"