Trying to decide between jobs

[mizzourah2006]

Hi all, I recently got a new exciting job opportunity, but I really wanted to get thoughts from this community.

Current role: I'm a data scientist at a small consulting firm that's almost certainly considered a key asset. I work remotely and have one direct report with potential for more in the future, but there hasn't really been any discussions about leadership within the company to this point. I make very good money and I love the fact that I'm home when the kids leave and when they get home from school. I have a lot of good friends at the company (many from grad school) and it's a well known consulting firm (in my field) with a bright future IMO. I also have RSUs that pay out once a year for the next 6 years (7 years total) that should/could be worth about $175-$250k when the company inevitably sells.

So all in all I'm extremely happy in the role.

In early February I had a recruiter reach out to me for a director level data science role at a local fortune 500 company, so I figured what the heck, I'll interview, at the worst it'll be good practice for leadership interviews. Well with Covid-19 it dragged on, but I got an offer on Friday. The current comp right now would actually be only a 5-7% raise, but let's assume they can come up on the base salary to get me to something I'm comfortable with. The pros in my mind are that it's a move to leadership in the tech arm of a company for data science. Currently while I'm in data science, it's more of a specialist DS role specific to the industry I have my PhD in, so while I've had success interviewing for more general level tech based DS roles, my educational background isn't in CS like many others. The cons are, the company is a bit of a dinosour, so the culture is just shifting towards leveraging data-driven decision making. However, they will likely have a new CEO in the next year who comes from the tech industry and from what I've heard data science and the VP I will be reporting to will be a huge part of the new strategy, so the potential for growth seems really large.


I guess to me it's a...stay where I'm comfortable or make the uncomfortable jump to do something that could really springboard my career. The FI person in my says if I just keep what I'm doing for the next 5-7 years we'll be ready for a comfortable FIRE, but the other part of me really wants to find out what it would be like to be in a leadership position for a multi-national corporation.

I'd love to get thoughts on this, things I may not be considering, am I over-stating the potential benefits on the other side? Is it my own insecurities, wanting to be considered a "real data scientist", lol.

[MrThatsDifferent]

As I get older my thoughts have changed on this. I was always the grab the new hot job person. Now, I’m the stay where you’re comfortable, don’t use energy learning new people, new company cultures and working out what you need to do to make things happen, and don’t make work the most exciting part of your life (or try not to). Now I see the job as a pathway to FIRE so I don’t have to put up with the bullshit any longer.

So, my vote: stay. Work internally to try and make those things happen that you want. Otherwise, use all that extra energy that your dying to spend on you, or your family or anything but work. It gets enough of you.

[K_in_the_kitchen]

Over the years DH (software engineer) had had many opportunities to "move up" by changing companies.  We always chose stability.  We live within walking distance of his employer, have excellent insurance coverage, know the company is solid (they don't go into debt for capital improvements), DH doesn't have to dress up for work, and they've always been flexible when he wanted to do things like coach our sons in sports.  The 401k match is acceptable, and they also do profit sharing.  Oh, and he gets paid every hour he works, not salaried but also not OT.

Many of the offers would have required moving to even higher COL areas, and would have increased the commute.  There were so many promises of stock options, etc.  We decided to choose less stress (not commuting) and more time with family, with a stable company.

Just a few weeks ago another unsolicited offer was made from a startup, a slam dunk because the person making the offer used to work with DH.  It would have been similar in compensation to what he currently earns (within a few K), + some sort of major bonus in a few years (several hundred K), and he would be able to WFH permanently.  DH still turned it down.  He doesn't want to put in 60+ hour work weeks. We like not worrying.  We like knowing his current employer has weathered every financial downturn and come out fine.  We like knowing his employer had never had to do layoffs.  His work is his work, and his life is his life, and he's never wanted his work to be his life.  We'll ride out the last years before FIRE (semi-early, anyway) without he excitement of a new job or the bonus, because his life is worth so much more than the money!

[mizzourah2006]

I think all of that makes sense. I think it's the decision that's really getting to me. A lot of my friends are all moving up into these types of positions and so there's a bit of competitive peer-pressure playing itself out in my head. If I take a step back and look at what I'd really want out of a job it's good pay and a good work-life balance which I have right now. I'm fairly confident the company will be here or be bought out (which benefits me too) in the next 6-8 years (they've been around since 2001) and honestly, I've thought about the option of working part-time at some point in the next 6-8 years. This type of role is very conducive to something like that whereas a leadership role most certainly would not be.

I guess the other part that concerns me is getting cornered into an individual contributor "career track" in data science, which is similar to programming. If I don't make the move to leadership in my mid 30s I may be pigeon-holed as not having leadership potential. That is largely irrelevant if my plan works out and I hit my goal FIRE # by the time I'm in my early 40s, but if things don't go as planned and I end up needing to work another 12-15 years that decision could come back to bite me.

The other part that sits in the back of my mind is the fact that throughout my career so far I've taken the stretch goal jobs. The ones that didn't have the certainty, that were uncharacteristic of people with my background that I knew and so far it's rewarded me pretty handsomely. I've been working for ~8 years full time and I've tripled my income and managed to make my work more fun and rewarding personally. This would be the first time I didn't do that.

[chicagomeg]

From one data geek to another, I would not personally make my first leadership role one at a company that does not have a strong existing DS culture. You're looking at two sets of problems you (I'm assuming) have never faced before: being a director (big jump from closer to an IC to director level, I wouldn't be so cautious if it were a manager title) and pushing the culture at a new company (and a big one) to leverage DS such that you can actually accomplish things. If you are a savvy political person who can get out of the data and into the ears of the right people, you may end up being a hero if you make that culture change happy. If you're not, you're going to be a director of data science with a team of data analysts who make fancy pivot tables in Excel. I'm exaggerating here as I don't know exactly what you're walking into, but you get the idea I think. But, you'll have to make it SOUND like you are doing fancy data science things and creating a data driven culture to keep that role. Personally, I find internal salesmanship when I know my team is doing meaningless or simple work to be the most painful aspect of working in a corporate environment; the people I have seen be successful in a role like you described live for that kind of soap boxing.

[mizzourah2006]

From one data geek to another, I would not personally make my first leadership role one at a company that does not have a strong existing DS culture. You're looking at two sets of problems you (I'm assuming) have never faced before: being a director (big jump from closer to an IC to director level, I wouldn't be so cautious if it were a manager title) and pushing the culture at a new company (and a big one) to leverage DS such that you can actually accomplish things. If you are a savvy political person who can get out of the data and into the ears of the right people, you may end up being a hero if you make that culture change happy. If you're not, you're going to be a director of data science with a team of data analysts who make fancy pivot tables in Excel. I'm exaggerating here as I don't know exactly what you're walking into, but you get the idea I think. But, you'll have to make it SOUND like you are doing fancy data science things and creating a data driven culture to keep that role. Personally, I find internal salesmanship when I know my team is doing meaningless or simple work to be the most painful aspect of working in a corporate environment; the people I have seen be successful in a role like you described live for that kind of soap boxing.

These are all completely fair points and I definitely appreciate hearing all of this. I agree that the internal salesmanship would almost certainly be a pivotal role, especially early on. I do a lot of it as an external DS person today, but like you said I truly believe in the value we are providing so it's easier to do than when you are trying to sell analyst work as data science. In my previous organization I watched almost exactly what you described happen. It was a director that got the ear of a VP and convinced the VP to allow her to build out a data science arm in HR. She went from a team of 8-10 people to a team of almost 80 in a period of 2-3 years. But the work never changed, they largely did the same work they did before. She strategically used it to get a few promotions to VP and then jumped ship and the team went back down to 20-30 shortly thereafter. You can't manufacture high-quality data science work. There needs to be good data and good questions. In all honesty it sounds like they'd consider forecasting to be "data science" work early on, so in that sense there's probably a lot of room for improvement before we get into the more current data science stuff.

Obviously conjecture, but I interviewed with all of my would-be peers, and talked with the CTO and the VP I'd be reporting to and they all said the new president of the company is forcing a cultural change towards leveraging data. So, presumably I wouldn't be the only person trying to drive this change. It'd be coming from high-level leadership. It also sounds like they're putting their money where their mouth is. They said the team has budget to more than double over the next year. 

But I think all of the concerns you mentioned are very real and it's good to hear them coming from someone else as these are definitely things I'd thought about too.

[lhamo]

Obviously conjecture, but I interviewed with all of my would-be peers, and talked with the CTO and the VP I'd be reporting to and they all said the new president of the company is forcing a cultural change towards leveraging data. So, presumably I wouldn't be the only person trying to drive this change. It'd be coming from high-level leadership. It also sounds like they're putting their money where their mouth is. They said the team has budget to more than double over the next year. 

This is a risky situation to jump into.  Forced cultural changes rarely go through smoothly.  There will be old-timers there who will resist for a variety of reasons, including because they feel threatened by the newcomers (CEO and anyone he brought on board).  Boards can be supportive at first, but if things stall or don't change in the timeframes promised they can lose enthusiasm. 

I would try to talk candidly with at least 5-10 people at various levels of the organization to get a better feeling for what the current atmosphere is before taking a leap.  Your current gig sounds pretty good.  Usually what comes with a move to the c-suite at a big company in transition is a whole hellavalot of headaches, and rarely does the compensation package make up for it.

[mizzourah2006]

Just to close this loop. I did end up turning it down. The final offer would have been about a 15% pay bump, but I just didn't want to deal with the extra pressure of building out a new team in a company where the culture was in flux and with some additional information I found out about the future scope of the team it wasn't something I was willing to take on at this point. I appreciate everyone's thoughts.

[Gronnie]

Probably the correct decision to turn it down.

It seems to me like going from essentially a (very good) IC at a startup to a Director level role should be more like a 100% increase in pay, not a measly 15%. I've gotten 15% a few times early in my career as a normal yearly raise.

[mizzourah2006]

Probably the correct decision to turn it down.

It seems to me like going from essentially a (very good) IC at a startup to a Director level role should be more like a 100% increase in pay, not a measly 15%. I've gotten 15% a few times early in my career as a normal yearly raise.

In my neck of the woods a 100% pay increase from what I'm at would be a high level VP or SVP role.

[Rdy2Fire]

I am kind of split on this because I have been both the person to grab the new job and stay put.. I didn't see where you mentioned how old you are; to me this would be a factor but regardless I'd definitely want more $$ then 5-7% to move

[mizzourah2006]

I am kind of split on this because I have been both the person to grab the new job and stay put.. I didn't see where you mentioned how old you are; to me this would be a factor but regardless I'd definitely want more $$ then 5-7% to move

I just turned 37 (man saying that makes me feel old), but I've only been working since I was 28 because I took a year off after UG and then went into a PhD program. Traditionally I've taken the new challenge and the new role. This is actually the first offer I've turned down. But I tend to be a passive job candidate. I've actually enjoyed every job I've had. I've been reached out to for opportunities every time.

[FLBiker]

I think you made the right call.  Personally, I prefer positions where I do the work rather than ones where I supervise people.