Author Topic: Changed: Diet and Exercise for Athlete Fat Loss  (Read 11145 times)

OttoVonBisquick

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Changed: Diet and Exercise for Athlete Fat Loss
« on: June 25, 2015, 09:16:36 AM »
Main question:
I forgot my can opener at home and can't eat any tuna at work for the day, and I'm likely going to need to buy food locally. What can I eat that's not 9000 calories, all carbs and sugar? I have a 7-11 nearby, no other real grocery stores

Thread Discussion:
Are there any weight-loss or athlete mustachian veterans that have tips? How can I adjust my diet for more proteins/fat foods at work to fit my goals?

I weigh ~215 lbs., 6'4", lots of muscle hidden under decent amount of body fat. Trying to lose weight down to about ~200. and I do weights (legs/upper body), tennis, and fast runs on different days of the week. I'm training for tennis tournaments, so legs/core endurance are my main focus, but losing weight is obviously also important.

Current daily macros:
Carbs: ~100g Fat:100-125g Protein: 125-150g

I also keep bagels and peanut butter in the work fridge, but these are getting to become too many carbs to justify. I can't seem to shed the last 15 pounds (used to weigh ~236 as a tubbo in high school).

Here's what I eat on a usual day:
Pre-work: Banana
Throughout work: 1 bagel w/ PB, 2 cans tuna, 1 protein shake, 1/2 can refried beans
After work: 3 eggs, 2 sausage patties, kale+blackberry+ginger smoothie, chicken/beef/veggie dish later at night

Maybe this has been a discussion elsewhere, but I figured I'd rather start a thread than hijack someone else's.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2015, 10:58:48 AM by OttoVonBisquick »

Friar

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2015, 09:36:03 AM »
Slightly tangential to the original question but I would take another look at your macros. From the values I use for calculating mine (Carbs and protein: 4.1kcal/g, fat 8.8kcal/g) you're targeting a MAXIMUM of 2140 kcal/day. With your height, weight and exercise regime I would imagine you're going to have a hard time sticking to that deficit.

Personally, I'd be aiming for 2600-2700kcal/day. It might sound like it will take longer to reach your goal, but you're at a much lower risk of having a "sneaky mars bar" and exceeding your target and as such will most likely get there just as quickly and without the pain of feeling starved each day.

Myself, at 203lb, 6'2", target 2500kcal a day. I used to go for 2300kcal but I'd get to the weekend and gorge myself on anything that was in the larder!

With that said your mileage may vary. Feel free to disregard my advise as you're probably already clued up on what you're doing, but if you want any more then just let me know.

With regards to what you can eat from your local grocery store? Peanut butter. Your macros have a high enough fat allowance to get a decent amount of protein without exceeding them. The stuff I use has 26.4g of protein/100g and 58.8g of fat/100g.

Edit: just re-read your post and you already have/had peanut butter. I go with sandwiches, but eat the stuff on its own (with or without a spoon!)
« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 09:47:19 AM by Friar »

4alpacas

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2015, 09:40:33 AM »
I'm not as obsessed with macros, so feel free to ignore my advice.  I would go and buy a banana or apple at 7-11 (usually less than $1) and eat with peanut butter. 

I always keep snacks at my desk for emergencies (super hungry or forgetting to pack).  I keep a few pieces of fruit, a cucumber, almonds, a can of soup, and a premade meal from Trader Joe's (jaipur vegetables).  I also keep a few quarters in my desk for chocolate cravings. 

Bracken_Joy

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2015, 09:45:10 AM »
I'm going to second that you seem to be at a calorie deficit with those macros you gave. I'm 5'9" 135lb female and *I* eat 2100cal a day for maintenance. (Well, I will concede that the higher % fat I eat, the fewer calories. Fat is just too satiating to meet that. So if I'm at a lower carb (ie, below 75g) and higher fat day, then I am probably more around 1900cal). You can get away with a caloric deficit for a while, but it will reduce your muscular gains, ultimately increase your body fat retention (hello inflammation), and tank your immune system. And no one keeps to a workout routine when they have the flu.

As for what to eat- depends on your 7-11. I've been to a couple that have those pre-made guacamole packs. So I would do those and some chicharones, carrot sticks if they have them. If it's a less optimal 7-11, try some almonds, peanut butter, and jerky. Expensive, but cheaper than a restaurant still.

expectopatronum

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2015, 10:15:48 AM »
Oooo, I'm currently taking a nutrition course, so this is kind of a neat case study. There's lot of general wisdom on diets on the internet, but it's the first time I've learned what is recommended. So first, by the book, then my personal experience.

I'd wean your goals to: reduce body fat % and increase muscular endurance (legs/core) and drop the weight loss goal for the moment. If it happens after you meet your gain muscle + reduce fat goals, that's just the end result. I had a 6'2" 215 lb friend in college that was around 8-10% BF. Focus on the fat loss for now.

Macros:
  • Protein: Book says 1.2-1.6g protein per kg body wt for athletes, which is 117g-156g protein for your weight, right in the range you are eating.
  • Carb: Book suggests <130g carb for adults/day, and in general, 1.4g fiber per 100 Cals. If carbs are too low, the use of protein in the body can be inefficient. It would seem you could/should comfortably up your carbs. I think you could easily double your carb intake...
  • Fat: Book suggests meeting protein & carb needs first, then having rest of Cals from fat. Focus on omega-3's (which you're getting in the tuna), omega-6's, and alpha-linolenic and linolenic acid, and monounsaturated fats. <7% of your daily Cals should come from saturated fat. Take a close look at the sausage patties and the refried beans, as they're likely to be high in saturated fat. Think about adding more avocado, almonds, walnuts, olives, olive oil, and rotating the type of fish.
  • Overall calories: You're getting...like 1800ish Calories a day, trying to build muscle and lose fat. That's what I eat for maintenance! And I'm a 5'2" female! At a caloric deficit that high (fasting), you will burn ALL types of macros - fats, carbs, and protein. For fat loss to occur, the general recommendation is 1lb/week, and progress should be slow. This is my best guess as to why you're possibly not seeing the fat reduction that you want.
These are based on Dietary Reference Intakes, or DRIs, established by scientific panel and the Recommended Daily Allowance (RDA). You could also dig around the internet and do some reading; I found nearly all the bodybuilding/fitness websites to lack the exact science (usually they were guides like do 35/35/30 macros, whereas these are calculated by body weight instead) that I wanted. But there's the actual report with really good detailed info: http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/DRI/DRI_Energy/energy_full_report.pdf

Other thoughts from experience:
- The above goes a little against what you'll find on fitness websites and forums, which will all tell you to eat like 100g carb/day. Maybe that works for some people, but you have to make up for the "lost" calories elsewhere. You could try two approaches: keep macros the same and up your calories, and/or increase your carb intake only.
- It looks like you're eating fruit and grains, but not as many veggies (smoothie + dish at night). Your work day should include veggies! Spinach, zucchini, broccoli, and asparagus are my personal favs; they will up your fiber to good levels and also add in some carbs. Some people eat bell peppers just like apples.
- Hummus with carrot sticks is a great work snack...protein, fat, and veggies.
- When I lost fat %, I kept my carbs "low" but was usually in the 125-150g range, which worked out for me...but again. I'm smaller. I lost 10-12lbs fat over the course of maybe 2 months, which when you average it out is just over the rec to lose 1lb/fat/week.
- Try exploring Nerd Fitness and its forums.

OttoVonBisquick

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2015, 10:40:04 AM »
Oh man, so many great responses, in such a short time!

1) I'll admit I'm wildly confused about exercising/nutrition plans. Everyone says "low carb gets great results!", then a bunch of other people say "You need carbs to fuel exercise!", while I'm juggling a lot of working out, so I get lost in the mix.

2) I try to target around 2100 calories a day. I will admit, it isn't easy, given my workout levels, and I often go over and gorge on the weekends when I'm drinking or with friends.

3) For 1lb/week of loss, does that really mean I have a maintenance caloric rate of 2600, *without* all the weightlifting/running/tennis? Should I drop my deficit attempts now and bump up carbs and bump up fat intake?

3) I've heard *so many* great things about low carb, that it just seemed to be the way to go. Is the point being that I'm actually costing my body/performance by not eating *more* carbs?? That seems incredibly counter-intuitive, as it would seem that excess carbs turns into fat, so less carbs begets less fat in the body, whereas more protein/fat helps feed muscle growth and energy needs.

For the "emergency": I will hunt for beef jerky, hummus/carrots, guacamole, and chicharones (I love chicharones)!

Also, I am in love with bell peppers. I will definitely chop a bunch up and take to work when I can!

Candace

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2015, 11:06:15 AM »
Your local 7-11 may also have a can of tuna with a pop-top.

GuitarStv

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2015, 11:31:34 AM »
Carbs are not the demon that popular culture would have you believe.  If you are athletic, they're vital to your diet.  They're what will give you the energy to keep going and push harder.  The insulin response from consuming carbs can be used to trigger muscle growth, and eating them immediately after exercise replenishes your glycogen stores.  Eat plenty of fresh fruit, brown rice, sweet potatoes.

Don't measure your weight as a sign of health.  Particularly if you're weight training.  Measure your waist.  It's a better indicator of fitness.  I consider myself to be in OK shape at 6' and only ten pounds lighter than you . . . but my waist is 32".

Jeremy E.

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2015, 11:47:28 AM »
I'm going to go ahead and attach something that is the complete opposite of most of the advice here... So be it, no one will probably read it anyhow.

[MOD EDIT: I'm assuming you don't own the copyright.  PM me if this is not the case.  Attachment removed.]
« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 01:59:13 PM by arebelspy »

expectopatronum

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2015, 11:48:53 AM »
1) Dude, it's SO CONFUSING. Tuna is good for you! No, too much tuna gives mercury poisoning! Do low-carb! Low-carb will kill you! Wtf.
2) I found it rewarding to cut to one drink a week and then do sodas & lime, tipping on the water like a normal drink. : ) Or be good all week and have a slice or two of pizza at the end of it. Sweets are no problem, but I effing love pizza.
3) This is something I don't understand that well either. Personally, I ran at a bit of a deficit, but not enough to create a fasting state. I mostly lost fat (based on body fat analyzers and the measurements I took), but I also lost weight overall. I *think* I put on a bit of strength, but I only lifted 1-2x weekly so I didn't see huge gains. I guess what I was saying is...you could healthily weigh 215 at your height and that body composition is more important than the scale number, so start tracking body comp ASAP. Measure yourself & take pics! If you don't see the progress you want in 1-2 months, it's a good cue you need to adjust. (Like now! I think the problem is not enough Calories ---> your body is burning everything, prob not the finer details of your macros. Calculate what you need for maintenance and don't run a deficit in excess of like 500Cals.)
3/4) So...it depends on your goals and what you mean by performance?

If you were going to run a triathlon tomorrow (>90 min event), your body would burn through the liver and muscle glycogen stores first, then it would need something else for ATP (usable energy). It turns to metabolizing other things, some of which take more steps to turn into usable energy. Eating a stick of butter (fat) during your triathlon is not going to be an efficient way to make ATP available. It's like having money in cash (glycogen stores), versus having to run to three different banks and stand in line and then transfer it and withdraw it...UGH. (That's my understanding). Sure, it's money, but what you have to get through to spend it is more complicated than pulling out a $10 bill.

Along with that story about the triathlon, what do you do once you've burned the glycogen stores and you still have 3 miles to go before you finish your tri? The body can absorb carbs at about 60g/hr, hence the replenishing with Gatorade that you see. You can keep burning efficiently that way. That's why lots of marathoners carry GESs, Clifbar Shot Blocks, etc. Also note, muscle glycogen storage ability will vary: for someone untrained, it could be 12g/kg muscle. For trained athletes, it could be 30g/kg muscle.

Think of it like this: carbs are the most efficient fuel. Based on how you train and eat, you create a certain capacity for storage. You want to FILL that supply up before an event (carb loading), then try to keep it replenished to keep your body running the best you can.

So my advice before the tennis tournament or a triathlon would NOT be to limit carb intake to 100g/day - I don't care what your overall goals are; it's not going to optimize performance during the actual event. However, in training/fat loss mode...I think it's OK to limit to a degree so that your body burns through the carbs (used up by the central nervous system, red blood cells, and brain alone!) and turns to another source next, such as fat. Does that make sense? You just don't want it to burn everything, which is what you force it to do by eating 2000 Calories as an active, male, 215lb, 6'4" guy. Haha.




I'm not a nutritionist or anything; I just find it highly interesting and have been working my way through my course. Will come back and update if I said anything erroneous and am open to correction from others.

Here are some articles that you might find interesting. I *love* this website; it's targeted towards people who want to work smarter, not harder. Kinda like here!

http://www.nerdfitness.com/blog/2015/02/05/how-fast-can-i-build-muscle-naturally/
http://www.nerdfitness.com/blog/2015/02/02/just-how-fast-can-i-get-the-body-i-want/
http://www.nerdfitness.com/blog/2015/06/18/your-most-popular-diet-questions-answered/  <-- Steve would probably recommend keeping carb intake the same and just upping overall Calories so you don't go into fasting mode. Me, I think sustained effort is the main key, and that keeping ~30% AMDR carbs is just fine for fat loss. But who am I, anyway...

citykid3785

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2015, 11:58:24 AM »
Oh man, so many great responses, in such a short time!

1) I'll admit I'm wildly confused about exercising/nutrition plans. Everyone says "low carb gets great results!", then a bunch of other people say "You need carbs to fuel exercise!", while I'm juggling a lot of working out, so I get lost in the mix.

2) I try to target around 2100 calories a day. I will admit, it isn't easy, given my workout levels, and I often go over and gorge on the weekends when I'm drinking or with friends.

3) For 1lb/week of loss, does that really mean I have a maintenance caloric rate of 2600, *without* all the weightlifting/running/tennis? Should I drop my deficit attempts now and bump up carbs and bump up fat intake?

3) I've heard *so many* great things about low carb, that it just seemed to be the way to go. Is the point being that I'm actually costing my body/performance by not eating *more* carbs?? That seems incredibly counter-intuitive, as it would seem that excess carbs turns into fat, so less carbs begets less fat in the body, whereas more protein/fat helps feed muscle growth and energy needs.

For the "emergency": I will hunt for beef jerky, hummus/carrots, guacamole, and chicharones (I love chicharones)!

Also, I am in love with bell peppers. I will definitely chop a bunch up and take to work when I can!


I will try and give a little color as to why you may be confused on carb starving as a solution.  It works great in the sense that it puts your body in a state of "ketosis" (i recommend googling), and you lose weight quickly (2-5 lbs/week if you're determined).  The problem is, ketosis is not a good thing.  In fact, ketosis is the body's natural state to prevent pain when someone is ill and starving.  In other words, it's not a healthy state to be in, and can seldom be maintained long term.  In fact, many who use ketogenic diets often put the weight back on.  I'm speaking from science and anecdotal evidence from watching many personal friends do just that.

That being said, I've noticed that due to insulin sensitivity, people respond well to different amounts of carbs.  I can handle a lot, my wife can not.

Lastly, it seems silly, but carbs are often treated all the same.  A few distinctions: 1) cakes, cookies, chips, etc often get labeled as carbs.  They are fats. 2) fruits and vegetables are carbs.  These are good things to eat. 3)processed vs unprocessed: potatos/oats/rice average ~600 cals/lb., whereas cereal grains and bread are closer to 1200 cals./lb.  As much as you can, eat unprocessed carbs, mostly fruits and veggies.  Hope this helps!

OttoVonBisquick

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2015, 12:09:09 PM »
Okay, so on a purely macro standpoint, I should aim for about 125g carbs on all days, regardless of exercise?

Protein seems good at 150g, now should I bump up fat intake as well?

I guess what I'm asking is, on training days, I should focus on more carbs/fat? I don't want to mistakenly think that, say, 2400 calories a day, as gotten from increased carb/fat intake is going to make me a better athlete when I actually need like 2100 to maintain due to slow metabolism and be putting on a ton of weight at 2400 calories.

My waist is around a 33 or so (making well-fitting shirts so hard to find given my large chest/shoulders >:( ), so I'm doing okay, I just need to lose total weight to make it easier to run around on the tennis court as well as look a tad better.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 12:13:53 PM by OttoVonBisquick »

expectopatronum

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2015, 12:16:38 PM »
Okay, so on a purely macro standpoint, I should aim for about 125g carbs on all days, regardless of exercise?

Protein seems good at 150g, now should I bump up fat intake as well?

Shrug. I wouldn't go below 100g, especially for someone your size/gender/activity/presumed age. I'm just saying there's no need to be afraid that if you eat 150g, or whatever, that you'll suddenly stop making progress. Remember: go for fruits, veggies, low glycemic load carbs, not candy bars :)

And certainly if you're going to compete, DON'T restrict carb intake. It'll reduce the "I just suddenly hit a wall" feeling.

I think upping things in the ratios you have them would serve your needs, TBH. Track your BF% for 4-6 weeks and see. I hope this was all helpful and not super confusing...

GuitarStv

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2015, 12:35:00 PM »
My waist is around a 33 or so (making well-fitting shirts so hard to find given my large chest/shoulders >:( ), so I'm doing okay, I just need to lose total weight to make it easier to run around on the tennis court as well as look a tad better.

This will get much worse as you get into better shape.  You'll notice that most shirts wide enough in the shoulders are balloon like around the waist, and most pants that are big enough to fit your ass and thighs have acres of material near your belly button.  You'll look great naked though.

expectopatronum

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2015, 12:40:09 PM »
My waist is around a 33 or so (making well-fitting shirts so hard to find given my large chest/shoulders >:( ), so I'm doing okay, I just need to lose total weight to make it easier to run around on the tennis court as well as look a tad better.

This will get much worse as you get into better shape.  You'll notice that most shirts wide enough in the shoulders are balloon like around the waist, and most pants that are big enough to fit your ass and thighs have acres of material near your belly button.  You'll look great naked though.

Triangular shaped men are hot. Just had to throw that out there...

And for tennis - would you be better off focusing on increasing cardio endurance? Not muscular?

OttoVonBisquick

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2015, 12:41:30 PM »
My waist is around a 33 or so (making well-fitting shirts so hard to find given my large chest/shoulders >:( ), so I'm doing okay, I just need to lose total weight to make it easier to run around on the tennis court as well as look a tad better.

This will get much worse as you get into better shape.  You'll notice that most shirts wide enough in the shoulders are balloon like around the waist, and most pants that are big enough to fit your ass and thighs have acres of material near your belly button.  You'll look great naked though.

Haha I've noticed it a lot already. I've got a well-volumed donk, set of thighs and legs, so pants that fit them tend to be wide at the waist, so I basically have to cinch the pants with a good belt. Then all my dress/button-up shirts have a *ton* of material coming out the back, so it looks like I have no fashion sense!

I may have to go anti-mustachian and have a tailor mess with all my shirts and/or buy new custom tailored shirts entirely...


Triangular shaped men are hot. Just had to throw that out there...

And for tennis - would you be better off focusing on increasing cardio endurance? Not muscular?

I try to with my fast runs every other day, and the act of playing tennis itself. My goals with all the weight lifting are reducing body fat % and giving my legs more endurance (tons of jumping/squating in tennis) as well as boosting my explosive power.

Oh, and thanks, I suppose.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 12:45:05 PM by OttoVonBisquick »

Axecleaver

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2015, 01:02:36 PM »
The pro-carb are probably going to hate me, but I wanted to recommend _4 hour body_ for an alternate approach to weight loss. After trying and failing at weight loss for years and years, I lost 15 pounds in 3 weeks. Currently plateaued there for the last three. This is a low-carb diet that encourages a limited set of foods, but discourages calorie counting (this is, I think, where I need to focus next).

I started getting into it after losing weight accidentally while on vacation in the Carribean, where beans were a central part of every meal. They were prepared so well that I tried replicating it when I got home with some positive results. Beans are a central part of the 4 hour approach.

www.4hourbody.com

GuitarStv

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2015, 01:21:19 PM »
Most beans are at least 70% carbs.

OttoVonBisquick

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2015, 01:30:34 PM »
Most beans are at least 70% carbs.

This. I've read a ton of nutrition labels on all my foods, and beans are largely carbs...

Jeremy E.

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2015, 01:59:12 PM »
Most beans are at least 70% carbs.
Black Beans, Navy Beans and Kidney Beans are all very healthy. Each is around 25% protein, with about 20% fiber. They are also relatively cheap. I'd like to add that carbs aren't bad for you, it's your bodies ideal choice for energy. Almost all professional athletes eat more carbs than protein or fat. Ideal nutrition for an average adult male is a minimum of 65g of fat, 100g of protein, it doesn't really matter where the rest of the calories come from, carbs are cheapest and provide great energy.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 02:03:01 PM by Jeremy E. »

OttoVonBisquick

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2015, 06:01:47 PM »
Also, I've been looking around at BMR calculators online, all of them say that my maintenance calorie intake is around 2300 or 2200 calories. I find that both worrying and hard to believe. I've had one suggest a whopping 3100 calories if you count the working out, but it's all "sedentary, light, medium, heavy" working, not accounting for super intense workouts but lots of sitting otherwise.

Would it be advisable to see a nutritionist to do some test to find my actual BMR?

Also, I'm a tad confused; If I want to decrease body fat %, isn't a solid caloric deficit quite necessary, as well as decreasing the nutrients that fuel fat sustenance/production?  I was under the impression that, while carbs are performance fuel, when you're not performing, too much of them prevents the body from burning off fat stores.

Again, I reference an earlier point that everyone either says "carbs fuel good workouts for weight loss" or "low carbs mean your body has to start burning fats, but eat lots of fat and protein to maintain your muscle mass".

I might be running myself in unnecessary circles, but it's just a tad overwhelming.

EDIT: Based on the calculators and images I've looked at online, I'd say my body fat percentage is in the 17-19% range, and I'd like to try getting it down to 15%, if anyone is still interested haha
« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 06:37:18 PM by OttoVonBisquick »

Eric

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2015, 06:16:23 PM »
Your local 7-11 may also have a can of tuna with a pop-top.

Or a can opener for the existing can of tuna

GuitarStv

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2015, 07:04:51 PM »
Most beans are at least 70% carbs.
Black Beans, Navy Beans and Kidney Beans are all very healthy. Each is around 25% protein, with about 20% fiber. They are also relatively cheap. I'd like to add that carbs aren't bad for you, it's your bodies ideal choice for energy. Almost all professional athletes eat more carbs than protein or fat. Ideal nutrition for an average adult male is a minimum of 65g of fat, 100g of protein, it doesn't really matter where the rest of the calories come from, carbs are cheapest and provide great energy.

Yep, beans are great.  The post I was responding to seemed to incorrectly think that beans are low carb though.  They are predominantly carbohydrate.

G-dog

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2015, 09:35:40 PM »
Almonds, raw or roasted (though roasted will likely also be salted) good amount of protein for the calories.

Protein bars - they will cost you  $2-3 if you get the ones with 20-30g protein. Not sure of carb level on these.

Turkey breast - deli meat or in a sandwich. Cheese. You might find something like a lunch ablest with meat, cheese, and crackers, if you want less carbs you can toss the crackers..

patrickza

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2015, 01:58:17 AM »
I've been low carb for years, been down as low as 5% body fat, but generally stay below 10%. The whole needing carbs for exercise things isn't true. To prove it to myself I did the otter trail (local 30 mile 5 day hike up and down mountains repeatedly!) while on low carb. Well not just low carb, but low carb and fasted, for the last three years I've only ever eaten at night, google leangains.

Bodies need good nutrition. Meal timing is a fallacy IMO.

Bracken_Joy

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2015, 06:54:47 AM »
Okay, so on a purely macro standpoint, I should aim for about 125g carbs on all days, regardless of exercise?

Protein seems good at 150g, now should I bump up fat intake as well?

I guess what I'm asking is, on training days, I should focus on more carbs/fat? I don't want to mistakenly think that, say, 2400 calories a day, as gotten from increased carb/fat intake is going to make me a better athlete when I actually need like 2100 to maintain due to slow metabolism and be putting on a ton of weight at 2400 calories.

My waist is around a 33 or so (making well-fitting shirts so hard to find given my large chest/shoulders >:( ), so I'm doing okay, I just need to lose total weight to make it easier to run around on the tennis court as well as look a tad better.

(Please note: while I am a graduate nurse, this does not constitute medical advise and should not be used as such. It is considered prudent to speak to your doctor before embarking on a weight loss and fitness regimen. This advise does not constitute a provider/patient relationship.)

Okay, what I will link is not an academic resource (not that any of this thread has been, haha). But you seem to be desiring to pursue a lower carb approach to fat loss. Obviously paleo is very popular right now (and I will admit my bias that I have been paleo for over 5 years). So I will link the "holy bible of paleo/primal" if you will, Mark's Daily Apple. http://www.marksdailyapple.com/the-primal-carbohydrate-continuum/

As you can see, different people respond to different levels of carbs. (And even Mark Sisson approves of 150g/day). As others have said, it depends on your insulin sensitivity. Carbs do indeed trigger insulin release. Insulin is a growth hormone. If you want to put on muscle, you need growth hormones. This is why you see a lot of body builders do a "dirty bulk" and then a "clean cut". Basically, at some levels your goals antagonize each other. To maximize the rate at which you achieve them, you need to do them sequentially, not in tandem. From a long-term health perspective, though, this is not the best approach, as "dirty bulks" cause VISCERAL fat deposition in addition to SUBCUTANEOUS fat deposition. Where you fat is deposited has a hugely differing affect on your health- hence the belly button measurement mentioned above.

That being said, I disagree with the previous poster who said that ketosis is dangerous. Many studies have established its safety, and it has been used as a therapeutic diet for epilepsy for over 200 years. That being said, with your goals, ketosis is not necessarily conducive. Further, by the medical establishment it is considered a "therapy", and thus is treated as such: it is prescribed and monitored, just like a medication. (Well, more like blood sugar really, but that's beside the point). So approach very low carb (>50g) with respect and a great deal of study- food can be just as potent at medication.

If you have any specific areas you would like studies for (or more elaboration), let me know. Nutrition nerd-dome is one of my favorite passions. If anything is disjointed, I apologize- slapping this together at 5am before a hike!


ETA: as an example of different folks/different carbs: I have hypoglycemia, and used to have fainting episodes as a young adult. My best solution I have found is lower carb/mod protein/high fat. I start my day with eggs scrambled in butter, and cannot miss breakfast, but after that, my blood sugar is perfect throughout the day. After a couple weeks you become "fat adapted", and do run quite well off of lower carbs. It's a much better change over wearing an emergency bracelet and carrying smarties.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 07:00:24 AM by Bracken_Joy »

NewReality

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2015, 06:59:37 AM »
If I had to eat from 7-11, I'd be looking for the same type of stuff I regularly eat, which is minimally-processed natural foods. They sell nuts, and my store usually has bananas for 2 for $1.

expectopatronum

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2015, 07:59:24 AM »
Okay, what I will link is not an academic resource (not that any of this thread has been, haha). But you seem to be desiring to pursue a lower carb approach to fat loss. Obviously paleo is very popular right now (and I will admit my bias that I have been paleo for over 5 years). So I will link the "holy bible of paleo/primal" if you will, Mark's Daily Apple. http://www.marksdailyapple.com/the-primal-carbohydrate-continuum/

...

That being said, I disagree with the previous poster who said that ketosis is dangerous. Many studies have established its safety, and it has been used as a therapeutic diet for epilepsy for over 200 years. That being said, with your goals, ketosis is not necessarily conducive. Further, by the medical establishment it is considered a "therapy", and thus is treated as such: it is prescribed and monitored, just like a medication. (Well, more like blood sugar really, but that's beside the point). So approach very low carb (>50g) with respect and a great deal of study- food can be just as potent at medication. 

I'm not sure anyone has actually said ketosis is dangerous...I was joking earlier that the world of nutrition/exercise is constantly filled with things that seem contradictory and as such, is quite confusing. It seems like we are constantly being told to eat more of this, less of this, or this in moderation. Even people here don't agree on one universal approach. Part of this may also be due to the fact that all our bodies are simply different. The reason I like to eat a ~100g/carb/day diet (when I do...) is because I'm a notorious overeater of them (I don't mean fruit & veggies; I mean white rice, noodles, and bread) otherwise. It's awfully hard for me to overeat on the Paleo diet.

If anyone is curious, I didn't list a reference earlier, but it should be Nutrition: Your Life Science, Turley & Thompson, 1st ed (2012).

Also, I've been looking around at BMR calculators online, all of them say that my maintenance calorie intake is around 2300 or 2200 calories. I find that both worrying and hard to believe. I've had one suggest a whopping 3100 calories if you count the working out, but it's all "sedentary, light, medium, heavy" working, not accounting for super intense workouts but lots of sitting otherwise.

Would it be advisable to see a nutritionist to do some test to find my actual BMR?

Also, I'm a tad confused; If I want to decrease body fat %, isn't a solid caloric deficit quite necessary, as well as decreasing the nutrients that fuel fat sustenance/production?  I was under the impression that, while carbs are performance fuel, when you're not performing, too much of them prevents the body from burning off fat stores.

Again, I reference an earlier point that everyone either says "carbs fuel good workouts for weight loss" or "low carbs mean your body has to start burning fats, but eat lots of fat and protein to maintain your muscle mass".

I might be running myself in unnecessary circles, but it's just a tad overwhelming.

@Otto, it depends on what equation you use. Calculating by hand with the Mifflin-St. Jeor eqn, I got about 2036 (assumed you were 30, lol...you may not be). With a BMR calculator (http://www.bmi-calculator.net/bmr-calculator/#result), same plugins, I get 2166. Both of these are just estimates of how much you would need IF you were sedentary all day - a base rate of how much you need, minimally. I avoid the Harris-Benedict eqn because you take the BMR then multiply it by an "activity factor"; I personally found it easier to just estimate how much I was burning with my workouts and add that to the BMR/REE. For example, calculators consistently told me 1400 BMR, plus I was working out, so I shot for about 1200 Cal/day, not feeling comfortable going below that and trying to aim for a 500 Cal/day deficit. There may be a better approach; I dunno.

I found with persistence and trial-and-error that I did alright, and I wasn't doing something so extreme that I thought I need to shell out to ask my doctor to check out my "eat less, work out" weight loss plan. I tracked what I ate for a week or two, then stopped counting and just monitored what I was eating (was I sneaking extra rice, what things was I eating that I didn't think I was), and kept at it for a few months. I finally tried Whole 30 after too much "cheating" otherwise and that was the best I ever felt...though it was quite challenging.

OttoVonBisquick

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #28 on: June 26, 2015, 09:04:24 AM »
I'm 21, but also doesn't weight-lifting increase your resting metabolic rate for at least 24 hours afterwards? I assume that if I did nothing but sit all day, my caloric rate would indeed be about 2100. Besides the ~100 calories I'd burn doing moderate/high intensity weight training for 20 minutes, wouldn't it also bump up my BMR by a couple hundred calories?

Even then, I'm probably pushing about 2400-2600 at most on weight training days, so I don't quite understand how a 2000 caloric intake is pushing it?

I had assumed that by eating less than it took to sustain my entire body, fat included, something would have to give. If I ate high protein/fat and stimulating muscle growth by working out in all forms, combined with providing a low amount of carbs to access as energy, my body would defer to my fat stores (somewhat) and my muscles (somewhat), but not enough to be causing me to lose muscle.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 09:26:34 AM by OttoVonBisquick »

expectopatronum

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #29 on: June 26, 2015, 09:26:48 AM »
Yeah, I believe that's right, though I don't know how one could exactly calculate the effects. Anyway, taking your age as 21, I get a BMR of 2230, but if you're exercising at least moderately 3-5 days a week, then it goes up to like 3000. I actually don't find that so hard to believe - an active young guy who exercises! That would mean you could add in ~400 Cals so your deficit isn't that high. It seemed like first few posters made an offhand estimate based on their own needs and would agree? Here's what I used. http://www.nerdfitness.com/blog/2009/02/26/level-up-your-life-4-determining-your-calorie-level/

Again, not a nutritionist, just someone who's been into this stuff for awhile.

OttoVonBisquick

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #30 on: June 26, 2015, 09:31:33 AM »
Yeah, I believe that's right, though I don't know how one could exactly calculate the effects. Anyway, taking your age as 21, I get a BMR of 2230, but if you're exercising at least moderately 3-5 days a week, then it goes up to like 3000. I actually don't find that so hard to believe - an active young guy who exercises! That would mean you could add in ~400 Cals so your deficit isn't that high. It seemed like first few posters made an offhand estimate based on their own needs and would agree? Here's what I used. http://www.nerdfitness.com/blog/2009/02/26/level-up-your-life-4-determining-your-calorie-level/

Again, not a nutritionist, just someone who's been into this stuff for awhile.

Hah, at this point, nutritionists hold just about as much sway as someone who's studied it a lot... Everyone's body behaves so differently, apparently, so one set of anecdotal advice, even with scientific support, may not be right, but someone else's advice might.

I'm kinda worried about bumping up my caloric intake all the way to, say, 2500, given that I think I've been doing ~2100 for a few weeks and haven't seen any real weight loss. Maybe my body's metabolism went down the pooper or began digesting muscle as a result of such low nutrition intake.

NewReality

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #31 on: June 26, 2015, 09:33:41 AM »
You will shed muscle from undereating your MR over time. The body hates excess muscle, since they take resources to maintain, but likes excess fat; fat is a strategic energy store.

The trick as bodybuilders know is to undereat quickly and severely, forcing the body to metabolise fat for energy, before losing too much muscle; cut too slow and you will tend lose muscle while still maintaining that bag of oatmeal around your waist.

OttoVonBisquick

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #32 on: June 26, 2015, 09:35:24 AM »
cut too slow and you will tend lose muscle while still maintaining that bag of oatmeal around your waist.

I like to call it my pastry pooch, thank you very much. ;)

expectopatronum

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #33 on: June 26, 2015, 09:55:38 AM »
Hah, at this point, nutritionists hold just about as much sway as someone who's studied it a lot... Everyone's body behaves so differently, apparently, so one set of anecdotal advice, even with scientific support, may not be right, but someone else's advice might.

I'm kinda worried about bumping up my caloric intake all the way to, say, 2500, given that I think I've been doing ~2100 for a few weeks and haven't seen any real weight loss. Maybe my body's metabolism went down the pooper or began digesting muscle as a result of such low nutrition intake.

If your true caloric needs for maintenance were 3000, and you were eating 2000 almost every day, then yeah. Probably.

The bold is why you just need to try different things and see how they work for YOU. 2000 doesn't sound like it's working. Try 2500 for a few weeks. Maybe don't focus on macros, but simply adhere to Paleo (only suggested since you seem to be somewhat close to it already). Maintain as many other variables as possible. You are your own scientific study :)

OttoVonBisquick

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #34 on: June 26, 2015, 12:33:38 PM »
Alright, I'll try to ignore carb intake as long as it's from fruits, oatmeals, vegetables, meats, and my protein shake and try to limit carb intake from bread, rice, etc. (I eat very little to no cookies, candy, soda, juices weekly) Maybe I will shoot to have <50g carb/day coming from the bread/rice department and ignore the rest.

I'll maintain my exercise level, and increase my fat intake (peanut butter, avocados, etc.) and leave protein at around 150g and see how this goes.

EDIT: This means a) I'm bringing bell peppers and spinach salads to work now for snacks and b) I'm going to finish off the bagels that I own, but then try to simply eat a couple tablespoons of peanut butter out of the jar instead of smearing it on a bagel.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 01:01:24 PM by OttoVonBisquick »

expectopatronum

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #35 on: June 26, 2015, 01:24:18 PM »
Celery makes a great peanut butter receptacle.

Good luck!

GuitarStv

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #36 on: June 26, 2015, 01:30:51 PM »
I'm partial to huge gobs of peanut butter on semi-sweet bakers chocolate bricks myself.

OttoVonBisquick

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #37 on: June 26, 2015, 01:46:14 PM »
I'm partial to huge gobs of peanut butter on semi-sweet bakers chocolate bricks myself.

I used to take dark chocolate, as in 95% cocoa, and smear peanut butter on them for a homemade reeses kind of flavor. Problem being, dark chocolate is ultra expensive. I wonder how cheap baker's chocolate is.

Cassie

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #38 on: June 26, 2015, 02:18:43 PM »
I was advised by my doctor & a personal trainer to choose 1 day a week to "cheat" eat more then normal but not go crazy. I frequently would find that my weight had dropped a day or 2 after doing this. I am age 60 so took 10 months to lose 30 lbs. Being younger & male it should come off much quicker.

Bracken_Joy

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #39 on: June 26, 2015, 03:58:14 PM »
Otto, as a point of reference, my 5'8" DH is 180lbs and is a power lifter- mainly for fun, the occasional casual meet. He eats EASILY 3,000 calories a day, up to 5,000cal on hard training days. The point is to say, don't underestimate the level of fuel young active men can burn.

Another point, again anecdote but illustrating a scientific point I am too lazy to explain and cite right now. One of my friends has been losing weight eating a paleo diet the last couple years. And he has done an amazing job, and is down 100lbs now. Around 80lbs lost, though, he stalled majorly. It turned out he had decreased his food intake, and this had stalled the weight loss for 2 months. I encouraged him to increase his foods, particularly veggies. Lo and behold, his weight loss began again. Basically, calories in/calories out is really simplified. Yes, at a thermodynamics level this is true, but the human body is far too complex a system- much of our health is based on inflammation, gut biota, and micronutrient consumption. It isn't simply an issue of eat more/eat less, because based on other factors your body changes HOW it handles the calories you take in.

Expecto: don't worry, the lack of citations and "keto is dangerous" remarks were not aimed at you. You're doing a much better job citing your points than I am right now (lol). The same poster who made the delightful claim that "cookies and cake are fat, not carbs" is the one who said ketosis is dangerous.

cliffordru

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #40 on: June 26, 2015, 09:13:32 PM »
You could experiment with adding some nuts (go salt free without added oils) as well as seeds (again, salt free w/o oils).  Try to also up your fiber - vegetables, certain fruits, legumes, etc.  The fiber will help you feel satiated and more importantly will increase your nutrient absorption.  As for the peanut butter, really try to get butter without sugar/added oils - not always easy I know; alternatively opt for the lowest amount of added sugar.

DollarBill

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #41 on: June 28, 2015, 08:07:33 AM »
Quote
2) I try to target around 2100 calories a day. I will admit, it isn't easy, given my workout levels, and I often go over and gorge on the weekends when I'm drinking or with friends.
The first thing I would change is the drinking. Alcohol has a lot of empty calories and will get you to make bad food choices (Especially right before bed). If you go out one night then consumed 4-5 beers and some bad food it could run you 1000-1500 calories. Which means you need a 200-300 calorie deficit everyday during the week to maintain your weight going into the weekend. It's a pound a week if you go out 2 nights a week. I would cut it out until you hit your maintain weight.


GuitarStv

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #42 on: June 28, 2015, 08:33:01 AM »
Booze also inhibits muscle growth and recovery from exercise.  It's best to partake rarely and minimally.

OttoVonBisquick

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #43 on: June 28, 2015, 11:52:33 AM »
Alright, thanks so much Bracken and everyone else.

Little update:

My main dietary/workout goals are officially Reduce body fat %, Increase cardiovascular performance, and Boost leg endurance and explosive strength. I have my own plan for the latter two, but I know they are maximized by perfecting a strong diet for my body.

On Friday I did indeed enjoy (only) one long island iced tea and a hell of a lot of homemade jalapeno cream cheese wontons with a long-time friend, as they were homemade and unbelievably good. It inspired us to try and make a new dish every week and aim for it to be healthy-ish (we're not perfect).

I upped my intake to around ~2600 yesterday, although it was largely by peanut butter, ground beef, and more veggies/fruits in addition to what I normally eat. It really felt like I was going way over what I should be eating yesterday, but maybe if I stick to filling it up with the good stuff it will equate to reducing my body-fat %.

I upped my leafy greens (kale, spinach), fruit (strawberries, blackberries, both surprisingly not too high in sugar), I'll start my morning with 1/2 cup of oatmeal in addition to my banana, and will work to treat breads/bagels and other similar products like pastries or "emergency" quick energy boosters if I'm about to go play tennis or throw the discus for a while.

stlbrah

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #44 on: June 28, 2015, 11:58:51 AM »
« Last Edit: June 28, 2015, 12:00:49 PM by stlbrah »

Insanity

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #45 on: June 28, 2015, 12:24:34 PM »
6 eggs, 2x. a day.  Holy crap that is a lot of eggs.

OttoVonBisquick

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #46 on: June 28, 2015, 12:49:46 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNctsEFp7Zs

its pretty good advice

I'm really trying to cut, not bulk, so I will likely not be doing quite that much, but that's some damn good grocery tips. Appreciated!

Bracken_Joy

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #47 on: June 29, 2015, 08:41:01 AM »
Thought you might enjoy:  https://youtu.be/Wd8tZiHexPc    (Broscience is pretty hilarious if you spend time in gyms, IMO).

Based on your goals, I would look at your training plan with an eye for metcon and less with body building. Explosive sprints with some good posterior chain lifts will get at all those goals. You want the hormonal recruitment and hormesis, not the bulking from high weight + high volume. You're going for enough for glut-4 receptor translocation, not competitions. This is going to be WAY less exercise than you're currently doing probably, because inflammation is such a key mediator in this case- you need quality recovery time. Just my 2cents.

Kudos on the nutritional changes. Everyone's mom is right: eat your veggies =P I will echo the above though- alcohol is a training killer. It causes increased gut permeability, which if you have any GI, food sensitivity, or allergy issues is a problem. It causes poor sleep. It inhibits muscle growth. Not to mention the content of the alcohol itself- it's usually with bad mixers, high sugar, etc. I know that giving this advice to a 21yo in their senior year of college is probably totally pointless, I knew it and ignored it myself, but if you're serious about your fitness goals, you might consider it.

OttoVonBisquick

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #48 on: June 29, 2015, 08:44:47 AM »
Based on your goals, I would look at your training plan with an eye for metcon and less with body building. Explosive sprints with some good posterior chain lifts will get at all those goals. You want the hormonal recruitment and hormesis, not the bulking from high weight + high volume. You're going for enough for glut-4 receptor translocation, not competitions. This is going to be WAY less exercise than you're currently doing probably, because inflammation is such a key mediator in this case- you need quality recovery time. Just my 2cents.

Uh, wut

I just want to decrease body fat %, not put on muscle, since I don't need more muscle, being primarily a tennis athlete. It feels so odd having people tell me to eat more and work out less, haha.

Bracken_Joy

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Re: Diet help needed!
« Reply #49 on: June 29, 2015, 09:22:07 AM »
Based on your goals, I would look at your training plan with an eye for metcon and less with body building. Explosive sprints with some good posterior chain lifts will get at all those goals. You want the hormonal recruitment and hormesis, not the bulking from high weight + high volume. You're going for enough for glut-4 receptor translocation, not competitions. This is going to be WAY less exercise than you're currently doing probably, because inflammation is such a key mediator in this case- you need quality recovery time. Just my 2cents.

Uh, wut

I just want to decrease body fat %, not put on muscle, since I don't need more muscle, being primarily a tennis athlete. It feels so odd having people tell me to eat more and work out less, haha.

Sorry =P I really shouldn't post when I first wake up, because I don't explain well, I just... state things.

Basically, based on how you described your lifting routine, it sounds like you are going for bulk. Body builder priorities vs power lifter priorities vs lean sprinter priorities... all of these change how you train. I was just saying that your training and your goals don't seem to line up well. I will say with the major caveat that I don't know NEARLY as much about training protocols as I do nutrition, but DH is very into all of it (and has a Biochemistry degree... cue the nerd) so I've picked up some. Basically, you're looking at it from the body builder perspective- work muscles hard, they get big. This leads to every day training, and will get you large muscles, but also not as much functionality and usually a trade off with cardiovascular performance. It isn't explosive muscle like crossfitters or (some, lol) power lifters.

To get the lower body fat and explosive strength, you want the *hormonal* response, not the sheer mechanical remodeling of high training volumes. For the hormonal response, you don't want to do the muscular isolation exercises, you want whole-body work that signals growth hormones (IGF, insulin sensitivity, melatonin regulation primarily... insulin sensitivity is where the GLUT4 comes in, it's a cell surface "gate" basically that lets you move more sugar into your muscle cells without needing insulin as the "bus diver", so you get more muscular response and less body fat response with the same diet. Also why weight lifting is so important for blood sugar control in type 1 diabetics, FWIW). The other aspect of the hormonal response is inflammation. Basically, whenever we do anything- use our muscles, sleep poorly, eat foods that are difficult for our bodies to process, stress in any way- we cause inflammation. Inflammation in acute and targeted doses is actually what we want with exercise, since it signals, "hey body! Stuff happened, we should heal this tissue!". But chronic (all the time) or too much inflammation actually *prevents* fitness gains, because your body is like "oh god oh god everything is bad so we could die at any time. Let's just throw resources at body fat so that when the famine hits I will have reserves!" This is why sleep and drinking affect training so much. And why recovery time from exercise will actually get you more results than not having good recovery time.

Anyway, this article is a decent (if not at all scientific) primer on the importance of recovery: https://www.t-nation.com/training/cold-slap-in-the-newbie-face   Obviously this site is all about bodybuilding though.