Case Study - Budget Discussions with Wife

[Platypuses]

Hello All,

I am new to the community and would like some feedback about which items should be prioritized to cut back on in budget conversations (which we haven't had in about a year). I try to pick my battles for budget reduction conversations as most of the time the discussions turn more into arguments with no resolutions. Right now my strategy is to pay our mortgage down as fast as possible (currently paying an extra $5,000/month) and as long as we are in the black for the month after the additional payment I do not care how much else we save. Enough background let's just get right to the numbers:

Income:
Me:
Annual Gross: $80k/yr +$4k/yr bonus
Monthly Net (After health care, taxes, 401k): $4200
401k - I put in $7200/yr company gives $8,800 (I put in 9% company gives 11%)

Wife: Hers is a little complicated has 3 yr contract (which will be renewed in 2017)
Annual Base Salary: $110k
Bonuses:

-Annual Bonus - $30k, $35k, $40k  years 2015, 2016, 2017 respectively
-Monthly Company Performance Bonus - 42% of Base Salary (~ $2800/mo after taxes) - She has been getting these every month since her raise in June '14. However we do expect a bit of a                slowdown in the next few months
-Yearly Company Performance Bonus - 28% of Base Salary (~18,000/yr after taxes)
- 3 yr EBITDA End of Contract Bonus - Gross varies from $138k - $240k (This will be paid in June 2017 when contract expires)

401k - She puts in ~$9,300/yr + 6% of yearly bonuses, company puts in ~ $6,100
Basically she takes home about $9.3k/month

This year I plan on maxing our 401k's with the yearly bonuses she gets, so an additional $10.3k to my 401k and $8.2k for hers.
Monthly Expenses
 
Mortgage/ Ins/ Taxes   1974 + additional 5000 towards principal
Daycare   1950 (2 kids)
Electric   100
Water   60
Netflix/ Cable/ Internet   60
Cell   180        (Wifes company pays $120 of this)
Life Ins   47
ID ins   13   (Plan on cancelling provided now through work)
Car Ins   72
AAA   8              (Plan on cancelling provided now through car insurance)
Nat Gas   35
Maid   185           (Every other week. Wife won't let go as long as she works)
Gas   280
Tolls   150           ($7/day for me to commute)
Groceries   1000   
Restaurants   500
Car Maint   120
Clothing   200
Gifts   300
Entertainment   100
Vacation   500
Misc   250 (includes babysitting, amazon)
Charity   150
Gym   150
Dance   88
Grooming   70

Total- $8542/mo + $5000/mo extra to mortgage
*She also gets an expense check of ~$300/mo she can use for discretionary spending
Debts:
Mortgage : $208k @ 4.375%
Student Loan : $30.8k @ 0% (Parents were extremely generous to loan us money and asked that we pay it back by 2019)

Both cars are paid off - We are planning on keeping these cars for a while possibly getting a used minivan with the bonus in 2017
2007 Camry
2008 Honda Odyssey

Our end goal is for her not to work anymore, so we are trying to pay off the mortgage with gazelle like intensity (Projected to be paid off in Feb 2018). She would like to be a stay at home mom once our kids start going to 1st grade, so I would like to not have any debt at that time.


My questions are:

1.) What items do you think are worth having a discussion about cutting back on?
- I have been focusing on the big items, such as not buying a new car and delaying aesthetic home improvement projects.

2.) Do you have any good strategies for budget conversations with your significant other?
- She has agreed to talk budget for 15 mins/ week.

Thanks for your help, and please not too many face punches.

[BarkyardBQ]

$5000 extra to the mortgage every month? $5000*173 = $865,000 in 10 years... or $600,000 in 10 years of home equity. How much is your house? It would be better to invest than mortgage, but that's beating a dead horse. http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/investor-alley/paying-off-mortgage-early-how-bad-is-it-for-your-fi-date/

My only suggestion is to start by asking your wife and yourself what are your goals. Then align your spending with making sure you achieve those goals. If your goal is to not worry about spending and never be in debt, spend 100% of your income. If you goal is to retire in 15 years, figure how how much that requires and what you can be happy to cut and invest. If it's truly hard for her to get on board, have her read Your Money or Your Life and have her figure out what is valuable to her.

[SuperSecretName]

Our end goal is for her not to work anymore

If one was going to stay home, it looks like it should be you and not her.

[DrF]

It sounds like your wife turns off when you discuss budget/investing. Make sure you have a investment plan that is well thought out to present to her with some facts and figures when you sit down to talk about it. Don't try to talk about it when you are trying to cook/clean/get the kids in bed etc. Also, don't try to talk about it when you are getting ready to fall asleep.

Paying off a mortgage can be a very personal decision. The evidence suggests that investing the money would be the more prudent route. What would you rather have if you and your wife lost your job; $200k in an account and owing $200k on your mortgage, or $0 in an account but with your mortgage paid off? I'd rather have the cash.

You guys are probably paying massive amounts of taxes. Max out all of your pre-tax investment options first, including a traditional IRA if you and your wife are eligible (you have pretty high income, so you may not be able to get below the threshold).

Read this. http://www.madfientist.com/retire-even-earlier/

Then read this. http://www.madfientist.com/guinea-pig-year-1/

[patricles]

If your goals are to have her be a stay at home mom then your daycare expense of $1950 should drop to $0, that's a savings of $23,400 annually right there.  Maid expenses could be a source of savings as well.  But if she is a bit more spendthrift than you (sounds it) then be careful she doesn't use all that new found time to spend.

Discussions with less frugal SOs are hard.  I probably agree with your strategy to focus on big areas (car/renovations) rather than small ones as it sounds like the discussion take a toll so you might as well get large savings from having them.

[neo von retorch]

$5000 extra to the mortgage every month? $5000*173 = $865,000 in 10 years... or $600,000 in 10 years of home equity

"paid off in February 2018" - in other words, 34 months from now. $170k over the next 3 years. May affect your math.

Still agree - if OP mortgage rate is 4% or lower, I'd recommend redirecting the $5k / month into investable assets. Grow your passive income over the next three years instead. But of course we see that $4200 net income and $8500 in expenses is going to be unsustainable - your passive income probably isn't going to be high enough (and certainly not reliably so) in time.

Don't focus on what you need to cut - focus on the goal you both have (her staying at home aka greatly reduced income). Do the math with a couple options...

• Current plan of paying off mortgage
• New plan with investing money instead
• A plan that keeps you at least at a neutral budget when she quits... how long will she have to work for you to get there?

[BarkyardBQ]

"paid off in February 2018" - in other words, 34 months from now. $170k over the next 3 years. May affect your math.

Yup! I totally glossed over that on the way out to lunch.

If the mortgage is a priority, could you refi your mortgage for 15Y at a lower interest rate? This would increase your principal payments and leave you more to invest, splitting the benefits. Obviously you can afford the additional payment, but now you could possibly pay off $3000/m and invest $2000.

[Platypuses]

Thanks for all the replies!!!

I have struggled with investing the $5k/mo. instead of paying extra towards the mortgage, but my reasoning for paying off the mortgage early is:
1.) It helps keep us accountable for saving the $5k (otherwise I could see the money not being saved). Although I could have automatic deductions setup with an investment account so this really is not that great of a reason.
2.) We would be stretched thin once my wife stops working and we have a mortgage payment of ~$2k.
3.) It is largely psychological and my wife likes the goal of paying off our house early.

I have looked at refinancing down to a 15 yr lower interest rate mortgage, but did not think about lowering the additional payments. We decided not to at the time because of the closing costs to refinance the mortgage and the fact that we would be paid off in 3 years. This is a good idea zdrave, she plans on working another 5 years so I will look into the strategy of refinancing to a lower rate 15 yr or 5 yr and then put the rest in an investment account.

DrFunk- You are right I usually do bring up financials at inopportune times, but honestly there really aren't a lot of opportune times. I will try and plan a weekly meeting on a weekend day to brush over the budget. And you are right about taxes, we had an unexpected tax bill this month of $13,500 (so we missed the extra mortgage payment for April and March in order to keep our emergency fund funded).

[marty998]

$500 a month at restaurants? Really? On top of a $12,000 a year grocery bill.

There's $6,000 a year for you saved (or ~$10,000 pre tax equivalent).

Start to think of everything as pre-tax equivalent....makes you realise just how hard you really have to work for each expense.

[BarkyardBQ]

Find an amortization spreadsheet and stick the numbers in for 15y mortgage. BankRate has an awesome iPhone app that lets you add taxes and insurance. Then drop the term to 5 years and see what your payment would be. See what the refi + extra would get you for 5 year payoff, and how much you would then have left to invest.

You should cut your food budgets by 25-50% to start. 18K/year will not be sustainable in 5 years when she quits, so you might as well start optimizing it now.

[MsSindy]

If your wife is clearly not a "numbers gal", then you need to try a different tactic.  Instead of presenting her with spreadsheets and talk about what you should sacrifice, instead just spend some time talking about your life dreams - let her dream a little and really get bought into the overall family goals.

Once you both are firm around your life goals, then you can approach her with some different options that you already thought through and that you know she would be agreeable to.  For example, if you say, "Hey, let's cut the maid" - you know you're just asking for trouble!  Try something like, let's not eat out as much ($1,500 on food is insane!), it will be healthier for us, too.  And if you eat out on routine, like pizza every Friday night, YOU volunteer to make dinner that night.  Don't suggest drastic things in the beginning, but you need to make sure she understands the connection between spending and making your dreams a reality.  You guys have so much fat in your expenses, that it will be pretty easy to trim without much pain...just go slowly and don't bore her with a bunch of spreadsheets.

[wordnerd]

Big changes might seem like the best focus because the ROI is higher, but what you really want to affect is a change in perspective. I would start with small changes that don't hurt (and might even be enjoyable)--a family walk around the neighbor rather than some "entertainment activity" or making dinner rather eating out.

Talking about big changes might put her on the defensive and make this a you vs. her situation ("I make six-figures and the husband begrudges me a maid!!") This is a long-term change; make it gradual and collaborative. Looks like there's plenty of fat in your budget, so it shouldn't be too hard to get started.

[justajane]

If you're worried about spending the 5K a month, you can automate direct deposits into a taxable Vanguard investment account like the VTSAX. This makes much more sense than prepaying your mortgage, as that will be liquid money you can tap for any reason once your wife stays home.

Also, can you list your assets, including the value of your home?

Does she hate her job? Is that why she is planning on staying home? I'm just trying to get a sense how best to discuss with her changes. If she is the one driving the decision to quit in the future, then I would structure your discussion of cutting back around that - i.e. this is something you really want, so it is important for us to make the necessary changes so that you can make this major change for the better.

[Platypuses]

I know the food budget is high, and that's something I know we can bring down. I am going to try Aldi this week, and I have learned not to bring up the maid conversation.

I did a comparison on the options to refinance and pay off the house in 5 years (Option 1) or to continue at our current strategy and not refinance and pay off the house ASAP. The remaining money leftover from the $7000 mortgage payment was assumed to be invested at a rate of 5%.

                              Option 1     Option 2
Prinicipal                           205000     205000
Monthly Prinicipal           3690     6280.3
Monthly Escrow           719.7     719.7
Monthly Payment           4409.7     7000
Total Interest Paid           16397     13090
Interest Rate                   3.07%     4.375%
Closing Costs                   3000     0
Investment Rate           5%             5%
Amount to Invest/mo   2590.3     7000
Months Invested           60             27
Amount in May 2020   176890      200433
       Winner:   Option 2    26542.86
*Please let me know if you see any mistakes

As far as our assets, they are not much as the higher income is relatively new (we were making a combined $100k/yr 2 years ago):

401k: 94,000
Mutual Fund/ Stocks: 12,500
Savings: 50,000
Home Value: 285,000

My wife doesn't hate her job, her main complaint is being bored and for the most part she seems to enjoy working. The main reason she wants to stay home is to raise and homeschool the kids, which will probably start in 5-7 years.

Thanks again for all of the advice.

[Platypuses]

Oh just noticed i said monthly principal. That is actually monthly principal +interest.

[theadvicist]

Maid   185           (Every other week. Wife won't let go as long as she works)

Why can't you take it on? You're the one who wants to cut spending. Why is the only option maid or wife doing the cleaning?

[Platypuses]

We have a good share of the house chores. I take care of the kitchen & dishes, and she does the laundry. The option isn't her doing the cleaning or the maid. It is a psychological relief to know that twice a month she will come home and the bathrooms will be scrubbed and the house dusted. Even if I did this weekly it would not be the same of having a maid do it. She is fine getting rid of the maid when she quits working, and at that time I will likely be able to take up more of the cleaning duties.

I did notice a mistake in option 2 on the monthly payment calculations. I assumed all of the $7000 will be going into an investment account when in actuality it would be $6280.30 ( 7000- escrow payment of 719.30). This results in a May 2020 amount of $179,826. This makes the options much closer, but option 2 still wins by $5,936 assuming $3,000 for closing cost.

[justajane]

The discussion about whether to prepay or invest is not just a discussion about what the taxable investment will be in 5 years; it's about liquidity and also about what the investment will be in 10 years, 15 years, etc. Houses don't appreciate very quickly, whereas the money in taxable investments will continue to grow. 

Prepaying your mortgage is not a terrible financial decision; it's just not usually the best decision. I opened what is a "mortgage payoff" account. It's with the VTSAX. Once the amount in the account reaches the amount of your mortgage, you could do a "lump sum" payment to pay off the mortgage. Or you could decide you prefer to keep the money liquid.

There are many discussions on here about how the low interest 30 year mortgage is the best hedge against inflation we have and basically a gift from the government. By paying off your mortgage, you are giving up that advantage.

If it were me, I'd throw half of your surplus in retirement and the other half in a taxable investment account.

[cashstasherat23]

Maid   185           (Every other week. Wife won't let go as long as she works)

Why can't you take it on? You're the one who wants to cut spending. Why is the only option maid or wife doing the cleaning?

My thoughts as well!

Other than that, agree that your food budget is insanely high. Other areas that could certainly get cut:

Clothing   200-How many items of clothing could you all possibly need? This is  Stop this spending ASAP, go through your closets, and realize how much you already have.
Gifts   300-On gifts?! What kind of gifts are you buying every month? For what purpose?!
Misc   250 (includes babysitting, amazon)-With all of the other spending you have in other categories, you should have no need for a misc category. You already have entertainment, restaurants, vacations, gym, etc...to me, this just reads as $250 a month for mindless spending on things you don't need.
Grooming   70-This seems a waste to me. What is it going to? For yourself, you should get a pair of clippers and cut your own hair/have your wife help you. For your wife, she should be able to get a haircut every 3 months or so at the very least (I go about 6 months in between), and it doesn't have to be in a fancy salon. This could be trimmed significantly!

[justajane]

As far as our assets, they are not much as the higher income is relatively new (we were making a combined $100k/yr 2 years ago):

I just have to point out that for many of us on here, 100K is a high income already. I know you are new, but many on here manage to build a pretty large stash in retirement and investment accounts on far, far less. It's all a matter of perspective. It seems that you are using this as an excuse for why you don't have more in retirement, but the real reason you don't have more in savings is that you spend a lot of money on stuff.

[Sibley]

Who does the cooking generally? You? If so, meal plan. You'll automatically save money, and if you already have a plan for that night's dinner then no excuse to go out to eat. Win-win, plus your wife gets yummy food.

Also, given your otherwise spendy budget, I'm guessing that you have a ton of food in your house already. Make meals that use it, and make sure when you meal plan that you consider what you have going forward.

[theadvicist]

We have a good share of the house chores. I take care of the kitchen & dishes, and she does the laundry. The option isn't her doing the cleaning or the maid. It is a psychological relief to know that twice a month she will come home and the bathrooms will be scrubbed and the house dusted. Even if I did this weekly it would not be the same of having a maid do it. She is fine getting rid of the maid when she quits working, and at that time I will likely be able to take up more of the cleaning duties.

Why would it not be the same as if the maid did it? Is dusting and deep cleaning beyond you, or beneath you? They are the only two options I can come up with.

Clean is clean, no matter who did it. If your wife likes the house sparkling once a fortnight, and you support that need, just make that your cleaning schedule.

You claim you are paying nearly $400 a month for 'psychological relief'. Really? You sure you're not paying it get out of cleaning?
 

[Unique User]

Maid   185           (Every other week. Wife won't let go as long as she works)

Why can't you take it on? You're the one who wants to cut spending. Why is the only option maid or wife doing the cleaning?

I'd go after some of the other categories first since this may be a bit of a battle.  Your food bill, clothing and misc can easily be cut and cut big.  Aldi, markdowns and meal planning could get your food bill down substantially.  See if she will agree to a freeze on new clothing purchases for 3 months or so.   I'd also get a handle on what is in the misc category also.  Is dance a kid activity?

[ZiziPB]

Priority number one for you: increase your 401k contributions (for both of you) to the max NOW!  And then fund IRAs - you can still do them for 2014 until April 15.  Do you have HSA available to you?  Once either one of you stops working, the window of opportunity for funding your retirement accounts will be closed or at least significantly reduced. 

[Argyle]

If your wife is not on board with frugality generally, but she approves of paying down the mortgage, then maybe a compromise is to continue paying down the mortgage — it's better than not doing anything frugal.  You could suggest increasing the monthly payments to $5500 or $6000 and see if she's agreeable to that.  Saving is more profitable than spending, even if it's not optimum saving.

[Platypuses]

I agree with you Zizi 401k needs to be the priority. I do have an HSA and it is funded through my company/ paychecks, however not to the max (3000 out of the possible 6650).
I think my strategy will be to first focus on the food budget (after we get the 401k's maxed). I'll volunteer to meal plan and do some crock pot meals as well as shop at Aldi. I'll also try to keep better track of the miscellaneous/gift spending categories, which will probably be my next target. Clothing/maid are touchy topics so I am going to tiptoe around those for a little while.
The dance class is for the kids, and we will likely have piano coming up in the next year.

As far as the traditional IRA contributions, with our income bracket the contributions would be considered non-deductible. I know I am getting off topic and probably need to put this in another post but does it make sense to fund a nondeductible IRA over a brokerage account?

[4alpacas]

As far as the traditional IRA contributions, with our income bracket the contributions would be considered non-deductible. I know I am getting off topic and probably need to put this in another post but does it make sense to fund a nondeductible IRA over a brokerage account?

We do a backdoor Roth IRA (http://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Backdoor_Roth_IRA) for another $11k before we invest in brokerage accounts. 

[ZiziPB]

I agree with you Zizi 401k needs to be the priority. I do have an HSA and it is funded through my company/ paychecks, however not to the max (3000 out of the possible 6650).
I think my strategy will be to first focus on the food budget (after we get the 401k's maxed). I'll volunteer to meal plan and do some crock pot meals as well as shop at Aldi. I'll also try to keep better track of the miscellaneous/gift spending categories, which will probably be my next target. Clothing/maid are touchy topics so I am going to tiptoe around those for a little while.
The dance class is for the kids, and we will likely have piano coming up in the next year.

As far as the traditional IRA contributions, with our income bracket the contributions would be considered non-deductible. I know I am getting off topic and probably need to put this in another post but does it make sense to fund a nondeductible IRA over a brokerage account?

Definitely max out both 401ks and the HSA - at your tax bracket it's crazy not to do it.  HSA is the best tax break going.

As to the backdoor Roth IRAs, what do you expect your income bracket to be when you retire?  If you think you will be at 15% or below, then the brokerage account is probably better.  If you think you will be above 15%, then Roth makes more sense.  In any event, you don't have much in retirement savings at this point, so I would probably go for backdoor Roths if I were you.

[lifejoy]

I can totally relate to the psychological need of having the mortgage paid off ASAP! I can't explain it... I just don't want to owe anybody anything. I know the math doesn't always make sense. Sigh.

[lifejoy]

OP - great idea about cooking and meal planning. When my DH wants to go out for dinner, it's an easy win when I respond with, "Sure! We can totally go out... I just made this salad and quiche, but we could still go out if you want..." 100% of the time he opts for the delicious food that's right in front of him :)