Author Topic: Cars in Norway  (Read 955 times)

dmore

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Cars in Norway
« on: April 11, 2020, 10:33:14 AM »
I am struggling coming to term with what car to buy and I would like your help and input.

Background: I am in my 30s, married with a newborn baby, and a 10-year-old, large dog.  I make about 100 000 USD a year. My partner makes about 60 000 USD. We do not live in a major city, which means there isn’t much in the form of public transportation.

My previous investments have netted about 240 000 USD (excluding stocks). This is tied up in hour home, which has a mortgage of 410 000 US with an interest of 1,8 percent. In addition, there is about 70 000 USD in government student debt – the interest will most likely also be 1,9 percent.

I lived without a car until I was 2016 and we might be able to pull off most of the day to day without a car. However, with the baby and our dog it might be hard. Our family also owns a cabin. Before the baby we spent about 20 weekends a year there. During winter, which in our parts is five to six months, all-wheel drive can be required to get to the cabin. If it was just me, I could park a few kilometers away, and walk the few times where all wheel drive is required, but that is less of an option with a child.

Lastly, we travel across the country once or twice a year, which means the EVs with the lowest range are out of the question

The issue: Spending money on cars is stupid. If you can’t avoid it, spend as little as you can. MMM’s general advice is good. But I am having a hard time transferring it to our situation. I suspect it is stupidity masking as being interested in cars.
We currently own an e-Golf which is too small to carry us three, and the dog with luggage. Without luggage it is just large enough so we can do the day to day – but without the baby stroller. So:

•   Station wagon
•   All wheel drive
•   Minimum C-class/Octavia/A4 size. (preferably larger, but probably can make do with a roofbox).
•   Preferably 2016 or newer?
•   15 – 20k US miles.

In Norway cheap used cars are at least 20 000 USD. Like I mentioned most of our capital is tied up with the house. We have about 20 000 USD in the stock market. In the MMM YouTube post about cars from 2019. MMM mentioned the Toyota Rav4. I just did a search on finn.no and a 2012 with 49 000 US miles on it costs 21 200 USD, three times as much as MMM’s example. The same goes for the Prius. I guess one could extrapolate that paying between 20 000 and 30 000 USD would be within scope. Although, you do have to pay extra for all wheel drive + a somewhat newer car which would be on top of that, possibly extending the range from 30 000 to 40 000 USD.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2020, 02:56:28 AM by dmore »

alsoknownasDean

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Re: Cars in Norway
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2020, 06:48:05 PM »
Are there plenty of used Volvos up there for cheap? Would a Hyundai i30 wagon or similar be suitable? Subaru Forester or Outback?

What’s wrong with buying something older than 2016?

How many kilometres do you plan on driving per year? If you only do 5-10000km per year, maybe fuel economy isn’t a big deal. How much is fuel over there per litre?

Seems that a 2011 Forester with 150000km is about $14000USD. That would have plenty of life left in it. There seems to be plenty of cheap cars under 20000 USD on that site.

Ford Mondeo wagons have a lot of space for cheap if AWD isn’t critical.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2020, 02:02:28 AM by alsoknownasDean »

dmore

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Re: Cars in Norway
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2020, 02:54:14 AM »
Volvo is one of the more popular brands. Subs could be a possibility, although I going for a non-SUV, like a Skoda-wagon.

Nothing necessarily, however I have no knowledge or experience in maintaining a car. I figured buying something that has had the three/four first years of depreciation would be beneficial.

We drive 12 500km per year. Being conservative in the life expectancy of a car, (200 000km) and wanting to keep it for about 10 years, 75 000 km or less would be ideal.

Fuel is expensive. 1,5 - 1,7 USD per liter for diesel. 1,6 - 1,8 USD per liter for gasoline. Fun fact. A EV for 85 000 costs the same per month as a fossil vehicle for 50 000 USD if you include financing, but leave out depreciation due to cheap electricity and other national EV-benefits.

You can get a sub for about 16 000 USD. https://www.finn.no/car/used/search.html?engine_fuel=0%2F1&engine_fuel=0%2F2&make=0.810&model=1.810.3655&model=1.810.7141&sales_form=1&sort=2&transmission=2&wheel_drive=2&year_from=2012

Volvos for 22 000 USD https://www.finn.no/car/used/search.html?engine_fuel=0%2F2&make=0.818&mileage_to=150000&model=1.818.2000346&model=1.818.3077&model=1.818.7781&model=1.818.2000093&model=1.818.2000386&model=1.818.2000390&sales_form=1&sort=2&transmission=2&wheel_drive=2&year_from=2012  Change it from 150 000 KM to 75 000 they jump to 35 000 USD.

Linea_Norway

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Re: Cars in Norway
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2020, 04:24:52 AM »
I am another Norwegian who is looking for a next car. We want to drive more electric, but own a cabin where we can't park the car close by. So a total electric car would require to build another outlet further away.
We gave preregistrered for a Skoda Vision EV and for a Tesla Y. Both have 4x4, but are not available yet. We are seriously considering buying a plugin hybrid with 4x4, like the Volvo V60 or Mishubishi Outlander. Soon there will also be a Toyota RAV 4. The Mishubishinoutlander is the SUV with best stats for reliability. And from 2018 the officially imported Outlanders have a 7 years guarantee period. Check this carefully, because there are many 2018 that are imported differently that don't have this. You can also buy older Outlanders that have 5 years guarantee.
If you don't find electric important, you can buy a used diesel car for really cheap now, new or used. Hybrids have lower fuel consumption.

I would personally always buy a car cash. If you can't buy an expensive one, than buy an older car.
We are ourselves mostly thinking about buying a second hand plugin hybrid now. This solves the incomvenience at our cabin, but will let us drive electrically on local trips. We see lots of almost new cars with 20.000 kms for a much lower price than the new cars. We also think that the Outlander is not a modern car and we therefore should not buy it new.

What is your budget? For a second hand 4x4 with good space, I can recommend the Misthubishi Outlander that many are very content with, the Skoda Octavia that many used to like and the Subaru Outback or any other Subaru model that we have ourselves. I was also content with our old suzuki, but that was a very basic car. I would personally choose for a plugin hybrid now. That is why we want to trade in our 10 year old Outback that has driven almost 200.000 km.

dmore

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Re: Cars in Norway
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2020, 04:50:22 AM »
Tesla Model S and Audi Etron would both get us to our cabin, and back. But their price is less than ideal. A 2018 outlander with less than 50 000km is about 40 000 USD. They have small trunks, especially compared with Skoda wagons. When you say you would always use cash. Do you mean through your mortgage (rammelån)?

In terms of a budget. We have none - spend the least amount possible and still cover our needs. Our needs (wagon with at least 500l of trunk space, 4x4, preferably somewhat new and not driven to far) is the driving factors. Looks like a Skoda Octavia could come in at around 22 000 USD. That might be the best choice.

Linea_Norway

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Re: Cars in Norway
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2020, 12:52:36 AM »
Tesla Model S and Audi Etron would both get us to our cabin, and back. But their price is less than ideal. A 2018 outlander with less than 50 000km is about 40 000 USD. They have small trunks, especially compared with Skoda wagons. When you say you would always use cash. Do you mean through your mortgage (rammelån)?

In terms of a budget. We have none - spend the least amount possible and still cover our needs. Our needs (wagon with at least 500l of trunk space, 4x4, preferably somewhat new and not driven to far) is the driving factors. Looks like a Skoda Octavia could come in at around 22 000 USD. That might be the best choice.

When I mean cash, I mean using our savings. We paid off our mortgage long ago in 5,5 years, before ever buying an expensive car. So we didn't put a car loan into the house mortgage.
I presume you listen to the podcast Pengerådet sometimes? They say how to so this, borrowing from your mortgage for a car. The point is to pay that extra loan off quicker than the rest of your mortgage.
Do you really need a newish car if you cannot afford it? You could also buy a car that has driven 100.000 km. Yes, it will need some repairs soon, but will still last a long time.

Linea_Norway

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Re: Cars in Norway
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2020, 05:29:23 AM »
Tesla Model S and Audi Etron would both get us to our cabin, and back. But their price is less than ideal. A 2018 outlander with less than 50 000km is about 40 000 USD. They have small trunks, especially compared with Skoda wagons. When you say you would always use cash. Do you mean through your mortgage (rammelån)?

In terms of a budget. We have none - spend the least amount possible and still cover our needs. Our needs (wagon with at least 500l of trunk space, 4x4, preferably somewhat new and not driven to far) is the driving factors. Looks like a Skoda Octavia could come in at around 22 000 USD. That might be the best choice.

For trunk space, also consider the option of using a roof box. Everybody is cleaning out their homes now and used roof boxes are sold for close to nothing. We just bought one for kr 200 + extra roof rails for kr 300. We expect our next car to have less storage space than the Outback, so therefore the roofbox. Normally they are sold for kr 1000 on Finn.

RWD

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Re: Cars in Norway
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2020, 07:38:39 AM »
Have you considered the Opel Insignia? I believe there is a wagon AWD version. Something like 530l of cargo space with the seats up, 1500l with the seats folded down.

gaja

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Re: Cars in Norway
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2020, 08:37:14 AM »
Petrol and diesel will continue to increase in cost (despite the oil prices) compared to electricity, and I think we might be moving towards road taxes that make it increasingly expensive to use those types of cars. So if you can in any way manage to find an usable EV, I would do that. Alternatively get a slightly older station wagon and prepare to switch it out sooner, when the newer and larger EVs get even cheaper.

How rural are you? With only 5-6 months of winter I'm guessing not northern Norway type of rural?

I'm often surprised of how well EVs handle icy and steep roads. Have you tested the eGolf on the way to your cabin, so you know that you really need AWD or 4x4?

Also for the size needed: don't know anything about dogs, but kids need the most room when they are tiny and you have to find room for strollers, beds, diapers, etc. if you are able to separate between wants and needs, space needed on road trips dramatically decreased by around the age of 4-5. After that, having a big car is a waste. Unless you are planing for more kids, or it really is the dog that forces you to go large.

dmore

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Re: Cars in Norway
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2020, 10:30:42 AM »
You are thinking about the tourer. And yes, I have looked at it. It is the same price range as the other cars mentioned here, maybe a bit above. For fossil cars I think the Skoda Superb/Octavia are the best choices if you mix frugality and practically.

@gaja Northern Norway rural would be accurate. Tesla Model S, Etron and Tesla Model X with the etron being ideal, having rails (roofbox), a towing hitch and being very spacious. And yes. I would say 7/10 trips there during the winter is fine, this winter we nearly went off the road twice. There are three steep hills with sharp turns that makes the road difficult to manage with front wheel drive. Pre pregnancy/baby we would just walk the last few kilometeres. All of the above have large enough batteries, so that range wont be an issue.

I agree. The stroller is easily solved by buying a cheap used one and storing it at the cabin. The dog cage still takes up 60 percent of a large trunk. In addition, we are planning on having another in a year or two. And it is a mixture of kids and the dog. Obviously, keeping the egolf would be ideal, but I don't see how we can keep it and the dog. And getting rid of the dog is not an option. Without fluffy we could have kept the egolf until kid nummer two arrived, at which point I would no longer be able to drive the car with a child seat behind the driver position.

Row 2 shows different value cars ranging from 400 - 900k NoK. (About 40 - 90k USD).

                                                                                             Used EV               New EV
Dep%    400 000,00     500 000,00     600 000,00     700 000,00     800 000,00    Dep %    900 000,00
16 %    336 000,00     420 000,00     504 000,00     588 000,00     672 000,00    20 %    720 000,00
11 %    299 040,00     373 800,00     448 560,00     523 320,00     598 080,00    14 %    619 200,00
10 %    269 136,00     336 420,00     403 704,00     470 988,00     538 272,00    13 %    538 704,00
10 %    242 222,40     302 778,00     363 333,60     423 889,20     484 444,80    12 %    474 059,52
10 %    218 000,16     272 500,20     327 000,24     381 500,28     436 000,32    11 %    421 912,97
10 %    196 200,14     245 250,18     294 300,22     343 350,25     392 400,29    10 %    379 721,68
10 %    176 580,13     220 725,16     264 870,19     309 015,23     353 160,26    10 %    341 749,51
10 %    158 922,12     198 652,65     238 383,17     278 113,70     317 844,23    10 %    307 574,56
10 %    143 029,90     178 787,38     214 544,86     250 302,33     286 059,81    10 %    276 817,10
10 %    128 726,91     160 908,64     193 090,37     225 272,10     257 453,83    10 %    249 135,39
                     
                     
Depre.    271 273,09     339 091,36     406 909,63     474 727,90     542 546,17        650 864,61
Intr          15 000,00      25 000,00     35 000,00     45 000,00     55 000,00        65 000,00
Insur.       50 000,00      60 000,00     60 000,00     70 000,00     70 000,00        70 000,00
Fuel          95 000,00      95 000,00     95 000,00     95 000,00     20 000,00        20 000,00
Trafficfee  29 640,00      29 640,00     29 640,00     29 640,00                  -          -   
Tiers          8 000,00       8 000,00       8 000,00       12 000,00     12 000,00        12 000,00
Wash        10 000,00      10 000,00     10 000,00     10 000,00     10 000,00        10 000,00
Service     18 000,00      18 000,00     18 000,00     18 000,00     18 000,00        18 000,00
Tolls         100 000,00  100 000,00     100 000,00     100 000,00     50 000,00        10 000,00
Ferry        60 000,00     60 000,00     60 000,00     60 000,00     30 000,00        30 000,00
                     
Total            656 913,09     744 731,36     822 549,63     914 367,90     807 546,17        925 864,61
Per Year      65 691,31       74 473,14       82 254,96       91 436,79       80 754,62          92 586,46

Last second row shows the total cost over 10 years, with the last row showing per year. Please feel free to add or correct any wrong estimates
« Last Edit: April 13, 2020, 10:38:01 AM by dmore »

Linea_Norway

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Re: Cars in Norway
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2020, 10:53:44 AM »
Why are you looking at cars that cost 900.000 NOK? Why not staying in the reasoneable price category? If you buy an EV or hybrid, you get more car for your money because of tax rules. Although last year, I saw a brand new diesel Skoda Octavia for sale for 300.000-ish NOK.
Don't underestimate second hand cars. Dealers are often selling year old showroom models with a 100.000 NOK discount.

dmore

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Re: Cars in Norway
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2020, 11:02:47 AM »
Why are you looking at cars that cost 900.000 NOK? Why not staying in the reasoneable price category? If you buy an EV or hybrid, you get more car for your money because of tax rules. Although last year, I saw a brand new diesel Skoda Octavia for sale for 300.000-ish NOK.
Don't underestimate second hand cars. Dealers are often selling year old showroom models with a 100.000 NOK discount.

Hm. It's a spreadsheet that shows a range of used options, that also shows the price of EVs which costs more up front, and less over time - which is an neat point. It has also been pointed out several times in this thread.

That's interesting, the current campaign is for 412 000 NOK. Major price increase in a year. And I've only ever bought second hand cars.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2020, 11:08:04 AM by dmore »