The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: Ecky on January 24, 2022, 09:52:44 AM
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Hi all,
I'm looking to change careers, and could use some advice and possibly a reality check.
Not long ago I relocated from Vermont to Michigan's Detroit metro area. The move was almost solely to be close to SO's family, for when we decide to start a family of our own. I'm 32. I have a bachelor's in Geology, but post-college I started working in low voltage electrical, because it was what was available and paid well at the time. I have no professional experience in my field of study.
At my previous low voltage job in Vermont, I was making around $70,000, doing specialized troubleshooting and some project management. I mostly worked for places like universities and startups, and often would find myself working from my laptop with a fantastic view of the Adirondacks behind lake Champlain, with a warm cup of coffee.
Now that I'm in the Detroit metro, I'm making similar money (slightly less), but I find myself generally working in chilly marijuana grow warehouses in severely depressed areas, or at strip clubs, or places where people have been shot and killed (and there are still bulletholes in the glass) just outside. My commute changed from "gorgeous, takes my breath away every morning and afternoon" to "depressing, avoiding dangerous drivers often without license plates, on bad roads".
Talking with other employees, most here feel really privileged to be here, and consider this one of the best places to work in the metro area in this field, possibly *the* best. From what I've been able to gather, the job market here is fairly bad compared with most of the US. I've put in maybe 50 applications for entry level positions that would use my degree, at a $30-40k pay cut, and have had no calls back. My SO (also a college graduate) has been unemployed for the last 5 months, looking for jobs every day.
The reality of my situation is that we're not going to move, and I have a solid job in the area. Others here are clearly happy and content, and it's only my outside perspective and expectations that prevent me from finding any peace. I'm also somewhat concerned with taking a large pay cut and having a lot less job security, in an area that has a reputation for sending people into poverty.
My sister recently was hired to work remotely as a front-end web developer, with no prior experience, making more than I am. I know I would have a hard time working at a desk all day, but frankly, leaving home no longer has much appeal. I'm still strongly considering it though. Either that, or to keep applying for far lower-paid positions doing geological or environmental work, which may or may not be an improvement.
Given these circumstances, can anyone give me some advice?
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You mentioned project management in your prior job, which makes me wonder what other skills you might have that are not in your vision field right now in terms of employment.
Maybe list out all the professional skills you have, experience you have, and hobbies you enjoy. See if there's something on that list that sparks interest and you can start looking for matches with that. I have friends who've had a lot of luck with LinkdIn profiles too.
If you land a remote job and don't want to work from home, you could look into co-working spaces near you. Part of the cost of the job.
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Get out of there.
You don't want to live in the area, have no reason to be there beyond work that it sounds like you aren't too attached to, your wife can't find a job, and it doesn't seem like there's much in the way of prospects for anything else. Live and learn, fix your mistakes, move on.
Potential help with young kids from SOs family is just not worth what you're going through.
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Just throwing this out there - if you have a degree in geology, experience with low voltage electrical systems, and project management experience, is there scope for you to get involved with companies, consultants, financial services firms (e.g. banks), or local or state government agencies that are focusing on the climate change-related adaptations? It wouldn't necessarily be a simple switch from one role to another, but maybe it's a subject you could explore through some free courses and reading? I imagine that there is a wide range of opportunities including hands-on work, project management, assessment-related work, and design.
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Move. Or you're going to end up hating your SO.
Just because your SO's family is there is not worth the downsides. And I say that as someone who grew up in the area and just moved my parents out of there. Yeah, there's a lot of good stuff in the Detroit area. But you're unhappy. You're only there because of your SO, and eventually your dislike of the area is going to cause dissatisfaction and ultimately dislike of your SO. It might take 10 years - but it will happen. So move.
You don't have kids, you may never have kids. And just because you're nearby doesn't guarantee that family will want/be able to help out.
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"The reality of my situation is that we're not going to move..." Remind yourself this is a choice. I am sure you have good reasons for stating it, but your post provides great reasons for making a different choice.
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No way would I stay there.
Just because you live close to SO's family doesn't mean they're going to be useful. My sister relocated to a place I consider nice, but boring as hell as far as scenery goes, just because her husband's family lives there and he thought it would be great for the kids. Well, his parents are just not the warm-and-fuzzy types, and have never babysat a day in their lives (the youngest of my sister's four kids is now nineteen). The rest of his family moved to a city a few hours away by car, so they were never around.
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Is this even a place where you’d want to raise kids? As far as jobs go, you should have some excellent remote opportunities. If not already on LinkedIn, setup an account, make it look good and connect with as many resources as you can. You should be able to find plenty of remote positions that will allow you to work from wherever you land. Can you find a more desirable place to live that’s within a hour or so drive wise?
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Thanks for the posts and advice so far.
Some other, possibly relevant info: My SO is really close with family, and it was extremely hard for them to be 12+ hours away. We're now about 45 minutes away (we actually settled in a nearby suburb that I felt best about, given restrictions of being maybe 45 minutes to an hour away from family), and we're seeing family 5-6 times per month, holidays not included. Sometimes their family volunteers to come over and help paint, or take us to lunch or w/e. I absolutely adore my nieces and get a lot of joy from watching them (though I'd prefer to have my own kids) and the family are all really there for each other. All else equal, we would have moved within 5-10 minutes of them if I didn't find the downriver area to be so incredibly depressing. And, unfortunately, none of them are likely to move. A few are engineers in the automotive industry, and there's also the sense of "well I'm not moving away from family", so nobody is going to move away first.
The town that we moved into is a nearby suburb of Detroit, maybe 30 minutes from downtown. It's relatively safe, has great schools, is relatively prosperous, and pretty sleepy. It's walkable - during summer we're next to a great park, and 5-10 minutes by foot from restaurants and other cultural amenities. I like this tiny town quite a bit, but it's only 2 x 3 miles, we're in the middle of winter, during a pandemic. On a day to day basis, I'm realistically seeing about 2 minutes of it on my way in and out. If I could find a job in town that I could walk to, doing something I enjoy and could make a reasonable living doing, I suspect I'd be content. It isn't gorgeous like Vermont (which I'm coming to realize was a huge quality of life factor for me), but it's a pleasant patch in the middle of an otherwise (for me) tough and depressing region. I also wonder if I might not just have a lot of hedonic adaptation. Surely if others can be happy in the area, so can I? The problem being that I've known better.
You mentioned project management in your prior job, which makes me wonder what other skills you might have that are not in your vision field right now in terms of employment.
Maybe list out all the professional skills you have, experience you have, and hobbies you enjoy. See if there's something on that list that sparks interest and you can start looking for matches with that. I have friends who've had a lot of luck with LinkdIn profiles too.
If you land a remote job and don't want to work from home, you could look into co-working spaces near you. Part of the cost of the job.
I've been doing some of this, but thank you for spelling it out for me.
One job I actually have gotten a call back for (but haven't had an interview yet) is vegetation management for the local utilities. I was surprised to learn that it's something you need a degree for. The job largely seems to involve walking around and looking/identifying trees, and then talking with homeowners, city counsel, contractors and utility companies to remediate the issues. I have the impression I'd get the lion's share of my work in my town, and those immediately surrounding it, though I would be covering the whole metro when others in the company aren't available to make an appointment or cover something. The downside? I'm not yet certain what the career advancement opportunities are, that don't involve relocation (e.g. moving to regional office and going into management), and the starting pay is around half of what I'm making now. That's a tough pill to swallow, though perhaps an inevitable one if I want to change careers and work locally in an area with a tough job market and relatively low salaries.
I also have a reasonably strong resume in IT, but that too seems pretty competitive. I've put in a few dozen applications for positions which I believe I would have been highly overqualified for and would have had offers for, were they in Vermont, but every one so far I've either been turned down for, or heard nothing from.
I can probably think of a few other hobbies that might have practical application, but overall I get the impression that, compared with some of the more prosperous areas in the US, there just isn't the economy for some "frivolities" to make paying careers.
I haven't tried LinkedIn yet though. I'll give that a shot. Thanks!
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Get out of there.
You don't want to live in the area, have no reason to be there beyond work that it sounds like you aren't too attached to, your wife can't find a job, and it doesn't seem like there's much in the way of prospects for anything else. Live and learn, fix your mistakes, move on.
Potential help with young kids from SOs family is just not worth what you're going through.
This is valuable to hear. I'm leaning this way myself, but frankly it's a group decision, and while that may be a path we eventually settle on, I feel before that call is made, I'll want to exhaust a few more options and months of trying.
Just throwing this out there - if you have a degree in geology, experience with low voltage electrical systems, and project management experience, is there scope for you to get involved with companies, consultants, financial services firms (e.g. banks), or local or state government agencies that are focusing on the climate change-related adaptations? It wouldn't necessarily be a simple switch from one role to another, but maybe it's a subject you could explore through some free courses and reading? I imagine that there is a wide range of opportunities including hands-on work, project management, assessment-related work, and design.
I would absolutely love to get involved with climate-change related stuff, and would definitely move in that direction if I had any leads. So far I haven't seen any positions open, but I may just not be using the right search terms.
Overall, the culture in most of the metro area seems pretty ambivalent about the environment, and sometimes even hostile toward it. Take for example - in Vermont, at the low voltage company I worked for, we composted food scraps, and *everything* was recycled properly. Metal, batteries, cardboard, plastic wrap, circuit boards, all of it we spent time sorting and seeing that it went to the right place.
Here by comparison, I rarely see recycle bins. I've had a good half dozen interactions, both at work and outside, which have gone something like this:
Me: "That could be recycled"
Other person: "I'm sure it could" - and then they dump it all right in the trash with a grin.
I was actually so shocked by the attitude that I looked up some statistics a few months back. Here's an example of what I found:
(https://acropolis-wp-content-uploads.s3.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/wasteland.jpg)
In other words, I'm leaning toward climate and environment being, on average, a much lower priority here.
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Move. Or you're going to end up hating your SO.
Just because your SO's family is there is not worth the downsides. And I say that as someone who grew up in the area and just moved my parents out of there. Yeah, there's a lot of good stuff in the Detroit area. But you're unhappy. You're only there because of your SO, and eventually your dislike of the area is going to cause dissatisfaction and ultimately dislike of your SO. It might take 10 years - but it will happen. So move.
You don't have kids, you may never have kids. And just because you're nearby doesn't guarantee that family will want/be able to help out.
I'd like to hear some more of your experiences in southeast Michigan, if you don't mind. Should I send a private message?
"The reality of my situation is that we're not going to move..." Remind yourself this is a choice. I am sure you have good reasons for stating it, but your post provides great reasons for making a different choice.
It is a choice, but it's not mine solely to make. I feel I need to try to find happiness and prosperity here a bit longer before we, as a couple, can decide we failed, give up, and move somewhere else. I'm really not looking to undermine or only half-heartedly try at that either. What I am is discouraged. You may well be right, and that might be exactly where we end up in 6 or 12 or 18 months. This is useful to hear (and thank you), though I'm also hoping to find some advice on either how I might change my mindset, or strategies I might use to try and make it work here. E.g. the suggestion above to try LinkedIn or to expand my search to other fields (e.g. climate change related).
No way would I stay there.
Just because you live close to SO's family doesn't mean they're going to be useful. My sister relocated to a place I consider nice, but boring as hell as far as scenery goes, just because her husband's family lives there and he thought it would be great for the kids. Well, his parents are just not the warm-and-fuzzy types, and have never babysat a day in their lives (the youngest of my sister's four kids is now nineteen). The rest of his family moved to a city a few hours away by car, so they were never around.
And what if family really had been warm and fuzzy, and useful? Do you think that would have changed the calculus a bit? Or maybe made the decision to move on a little harder? I'd appreciate hearing more of your thoughts on the topic.
Is this even a place where you’d want to raise kids? As far as jobs go, you should have some excellent remote opportunities. If not already on LinkedIn, setup an account, make it look good and connect with as many resources as you can. You should be able to find plenty of remote positions that will allow you to work from wherever you land. Can you find a more desirable place to live that’s within a hour or so drive wise?
The particular town we settled in has truly top notch public schools. I don't much care for the environment or attitude of the metro area at large, but in the surrounding mile and a half, I feel it wouldn't at all be a bad place to raise kids. I would however encourage them to see the rest of the world as soon as they were on their own.
As far as other nearby desirable places to live - I'm not that familiar with Michigan yet, but I have done some homework. Ann Arbor is about an hour away. It's both geographically more interesting (a college town set in a valley sloping down to a river, in an otherwise flat and rather featureless region), and highly rated in terms of resident happiness and prosperity. Given that I already like the small town that I live in, and I could feasibly commute over to Ann Arbor even if we don't live there right away, this isn't a bad suggestion.
Other than that, Michigan's west coast (~3 hours) is supposed to be gorgeous, but also very much culturally at odds with my beliefs and values, and additionally not a place where I'm likely to have any more luck finding work.
I'll noodle over this one a bit.
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Are there any jobs in Vermont that can be done remotely?
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Are there any jobs in Vermont that can be done remotely?
I could likely work for my previous company, albeit at somewhat reduced hours, completely remotely. I would like to give Michigan's offerings a shot, and/or move into something more related to my education. Most of my applications for a career change have been in environmental science and chemistry - I taught chemistry at one point.
I wonder if I might not find some remote work I might do relating to climate change or climate science.
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Random question: do you have any interest in hydrology? Could you use your geology undergrad to get the post-graduate certificate?
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Random question: do you have any interest in hydrology? Could you use your geology undergrad to get the post-graduate certificate?
I likely could, but I believe I need some professional experience in the field first. Might depend on the school.
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Would a federal job interest you? I suggest signing up for USAJOBS and having openings in the region emailed to you to see what’s out there. The Corps of Engineers seems like it might have possibilities (may need to get your foot in the door at tech level but there might be career ladder positions too). I’m not familiar with that area of the country or I would have more agency suggestions.
I’m not sure if this fits your career goals, but my family members that are IBEW always suggest reaching out to the local about opportunities.
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Would a federal job interest you? I suggest signing up for USAJOBS and having openings in the region emailed to you to see what’s out there. The Corps of Engineers seems like it might have possibilities (may need to get your foot in the door at tech level but there might be career ladder positions too). I’m not familiar with that area of the country or I would have more agency suggestions.
I’m not sure if this fits your career goals, but my family members that are IBEW always suggest reaching out to the local about opportunities.
I'd definitely consider a federal job. I've browsed and there really isn't much in the area right now, but thanks for the tip on having listings sent to me.
Signing up for LinkedIn appears to have been a good idea - I've found some more things to apply to. Still getting turned down, but I have a larger pool of opportunities.
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No way would I stay there.
Just because you live close to SO's family doesn't mean they're going to be useful. My sister relocated to a place I consider nice, but boring as hell as far as scenery goes, just because her husband's family lives there and he thought it would be great for the kids. Well, his parents are just not the warm-and-fuzzy types, and have never babysat a day in their lives (the youngest of my sister's four kids is now nineteen). The rest of his family moved to a city a few hours away by car, so they were never around.
And what if family really had been warm and fuzzy, and useful? Do you think that would have changed the calculus a bit? Or maybe made the decision to move on a little harder? I'd appreciate hearing more of your thoughts on the topic.
It would certainly have made things easier if his family had been more involved. My sister was moving to a new country where she knew no one, and they already had two small children at that point. The city they moved to is nice enough, but they had no reason to be there apart from his family. He has always worked from home, and my sister has never worked since they got married. It took her years to build up a social network again.
Personally, I would have moved to a more scenic part of Canada. They could have settled in Vancouver for the same money back then.