Career advice for youngest son?

[frugaldrummer]

Ok, so I already asked this question for my oldest son (who has mild Asperger's), now I'm dealing with it in my youngest son.  He's completed 2 years of community college (gen ed) and taken some time off to pursue music (which didn't work out well, as the music industry right now is in terrible straits and he has been dealing with some serious depression at the same time). Now he's starting to realize that an education may be required if he wants to achieve the level of financial success that he desires.  Problem is, he really doesn't know what he wants to do.

Talking to him, his priority seems to be financial success (unfortunately, he had very wealthy friends growing up and tends to hang out in that crowd, so he may have somewhat unrealistic ideas about wealth.)  Because of his current depression (which he IS finally getting some help for, fingers crossed) nothing really appeals to him - the world is a horrible place and people suck.  So he feels since he's going to hate everything, he should do something he hates but that makes him a boatload of money. At least he is being realistic about the fact that if he goes back to school, he should study something that provides him a path to gainful employment. 

Right now he's thinking about maybe aiming for law school.  I'm not super keen on the idea, since it's a long haul and lawyers are a dime a dozen out there now - I don't think it's the guaranteed path to success it once was.  I'd like to offer him an array of ideas, but frankly, I know little of the job market, having been in my niche my whole adult life pretty much.

Things to consider:
 - he'll graduate undergrad without debt but grad school will probably be on his dime
 - he's super-smart (taught himself to read at age 3) and could theoretically excel at anything if he wanted
 - unlike his brother that has Asperger's, this one is super-savvy socially, has some natural leadership skills, but doesn't like to schmooze and currently sees people through the dark lens of depression
 - doesn't tolerate fools
 - isn't interested in programming (although could easily learn any related computer skills needed for a different type of job)
 - not interested in medicine
 - has had some entrepreneurial aspirations in the past but now feels that involves too much schmoozing
 - is concerned that a blue-collar skilled job (like electrician) would result in him working with people that he doesn't have an intellectual connection with
 - is always at the forefront of trends in fashion etc (i.e. would probably not be happy working in a total nerd environment)

Any suggestions out there for careers that would be very financially rewarding that he and I haven't thought of?  I'm thinking maybe he should get an undergraduate degree in finance or accounting; if he does go to law school, seems like a useful background, and if he doesn't, seems like an employable degree?  And could be useful if he pursues anything entrepreneurial in the future.  I'd be interested in any and all suggestions for careers with 6 figure incomes.  (Don't worry, I'll be having discussions with him about how money doesn't buy happiness, and about how much you spend being just as important as how much you earn).

[Beric01]

I went through some of the very same questions around 5 years ago in college!

I guess it really depends on his goals. I shared his similar philosophy of "money first" in jobs - working is only part of your life and you should have enough money to afford your hobbies outside of work - of course nowadays that perspective has changed to being able to afford FIRE.

There's really only 4 well-paying fields (with their specialties of course):

• Doctor - takes almost 10 years of education and huge student loans, plus long hours and a lot of stress. The pay doesn't make up for it. Your son isn't wrong to rule that one out.
• Lawyer - similarly takes many years of school and heavy student loans. Long hours as well, plus it has the benefit of having too many graduates and too few jobs - you need to be in the top 10% of your class to have a chance to get a job. I ruled this out out, even though the field interested me.
• Engineer (most types) - has the best starting pay, and you can get a job and start working after only 4 years in school. Those 4 years will be some of the most challenging years of education you can have, however. Sell your soul for 4 years and you'll get a good salary right when you come out. The one other potential concern is that it's very specialized and changes quickly - you may need additional education later on in your career if you don't plan to FIRE at 35.
• Business (Accounting, finance, MIS, marketing, etc.) - has the advantage of relatively easy schooling for only 4 years. Pretty decent salaries when you come out, and it has the advantage of being able to scale up to the highest salary if you stay in the field for many years. Main disadvantage is not as "hard" of skills as the other options, so you will need to network/find internships more than any other field. But this INTJ managed it, so your son can too.

That's my overly simplified, but eventual reasoning I choose business with - right now I'm in marketing. But IMO engineering would not have been a bad field either, I just hated the high-level calculus classes and endless homework problems required to get the degree.

[frugaldrummer]

That's pretty much my reasoning as well - of the different undergraduate business-related degrees, what do you think are the benefits of, say, accounting vs. marketing vs. general business?

[Numbers Man]

I don't think he should go back to school until he has a better idea of what he wants to do. He needs to get a full time time job doing something. By working a full time job he'll probably come to the conclusion that he doesn't want to do this the rest of his life and he'll be more likely to figure out what he really wants to study in school. He just needs to understand that he has to work his way up the ladder. Obviously encouragement from his parents and a constant dialogue should help.

[2Birds1Stone]

Business to business technology sales.

It takes smart, sociable individuals, a bachelors degree, and drive.

The $$ is amazing, and regardless of economy good sales people will always have work.

[Beric01]

That's pretty much my reasoning as well - of the different undergraduate business-related degrees, what do you think are the benefits of, say, accounting vs. marketing vs. general business?

Good question! There's really 4 different sub-fields in business:

• Marketing - I chose marketing because I'm a very strategic thinker - I love strategy and marketing really works with every aspect of the company, so I presumed it would end up the most strategic field. But it's got a number of issues, and I wouldn't recommend it for just anyone. For one, it has unfortunate aspect of being a very "Soft" field - if you want a job you will need to really work on your resume. You need to have a "specialty" that will get you in the door in a particularity field, or you will end up with a sales job like most of my classmates did. I love technology, and surprisingly most of my peers in my marketing don't, so this worked to my advantage to get into a tech firm. You'll want at least 2 internships and your resume and interviewing skills are really big here (if you can't even market yourself, you've got nothing). Finally, it may take a number of years to get beyond the low-level marketing areas. Note that marketing will always be the first to be fired when a company is starting going down - thank goodness I work for an Asian tech company which doesn't let its employees go so easily.
• Accounting - basically the opposite of marketing. The "hardest skill" of the choices here. My brother is actually taking the last of his CPA exams (and I also took 3 accounting classes in college), so I have some familiarity with the field. It's very much about memorization and following the "rules". You're going to be very specialized, and doing a lot of the same things over again. You should be pretty good at studying and test-taking - a lot of people fail the CPA exam several times, though my brother doesn't have that issue. If you go to a good school that the Big 4 accounting firms recruit from, you WILL walk into a job. Job security is very good. Specialization is not a big deal here - just preferably get an internship and then get your job. You can go all the way up to a partner at an accounting firm, or get a specialization and work for a regular coimpany in the accounting department.
• Finance - I don't have so much familiarity here, but do have a couple friends in the field. It's less of a "soft" skill than marketing, but softer than accounting. A specialty may really help here, as will connections. It's going to require a lot more math knowledge as well. In retrospect, I might have gone with this field had I discovered MMM earlier - finance never interested me before I learned about MMM, but now it really interests me.
• MIS (management information systems). This is actually a really interesting field. Basically it's combining business and computer science. Very high job placement rates and starting salaries, but not as hard-core technical as pure engineering. You will look at structuring overall databases and systems, so it's more of a big-picture field. But your son doesn't seem to like programming, so it may or may not interest him. This can definitely become a consulting field, meaning you get a lot of variety in your everyday work.

Business to business technology sales.

It takes smart, sociable individuals, a bachelors degree, and drive.

The $$ is amazing, and regardless of economy good sales people will always have work.

This is another option, which I admit I avoided because I hate the idea of working in sales. Easiest way is to get a business/marketing degree, get some technical expertise (perhaps even just through a sales internship at a tech company) and get started. The pay is indeed very good. I admittedly hate talking on the phone and visiting customers/attending meetings all the time, but I shouldn't rule it out for the OP's son as everyone is different.

[frugaldrummer]

@NumbersMan - he wouldn't be going back to school for a year and a half, given the vagaries of the application process in our state.  He might go back to community college for a semester to finish up any pre-reqs.  He is looking for a job right now.  One financial incentive to get school done, his father has to contribute to his undergraduate education costs, but only up to age 25. So financially it is better if he returns sooner.

@2Birds1Stone - not sure he's enough of an extrovert for sales. 

[slschierer]

I chose accounting, myself.  I was able to graduate from college 1 year early with a job offer in hand the summer before I graduated.  That's the great part about accounting:  there's a ton of demand.  I work for a manufacturing company as the working hours appealed to me more than the long hours put in by those who work as auditors.  My company did pay for my MBA and CPA so your son may want to keep that in mind.

[MDM]

he's super-smart (taught himself to read at age 3) and could theoretically excel at anything if he wanted
 - unlike his brother that has Asperger's, this one is super-savvy socially, has some natural leadership skills,

Based on the above attributes, engineering (eventually moving into technical management) could be a great fit.

However, "doesn't like to schmooze and currently sees people through the dark lens of depression" are things he will have to overcome (for pretty much any career).

[Check2400]

If he suffers from depression then he should not go into law, as the profession only exacerbates that tendency. 
If he does not suffer fools, then he should not go into law.  This is where people say 'but that means he'll be a great litigator and argue down with impunity those fools who face him!'  The reality is that, while opposing party and opposing counsel may very well be fools, the likelihood your client who is the one paying you the money, is also a fool. 
If he doesn't like schmoozing, then he shouldn't go into law.  Unless he want to be completely reliant on other attorneys as rainmakers to give him work. 

This is the part that should alarm you.  He doesn't like Schmoozing but is super savvy personable?  I think we would probably agree that if he is super savvy personable, then the depression is probably dictating his opinion on Schmoozing or, as the people in the working world call it 'Networking' or simply 'Working.'  It would be a shame to let the Depression steer his educational and resultant career decision simply based on a timeline resulting from father's obligation to pay tuition. 

It sounds like he needs to work through the problems he has.  I would imagine he's struggling with the dichotomy of being a young success vs. being free and young.  For long term decisions and emotional stability, I'd err on young and free, but hedge it by not going into debt.  Student and law school loans are debt.

If he truly thinks he wants to do law school, this is the most neutral, analytical approach I've found, and the one I recommend. 
http://www.artofmanliness.com/2012/02/27/faq-should-i-go-to-law-school/

Long answer short, you're asking for advice on a major, and then for a career, for your son who won't be taking classes for another year and a half.  The better question may be what can he do in that year and a half to have the knowledge to make those educational and subsequently career defining decisions.  From the article linked, and my own personal hindsight, I would say work a job, any job, at a law firm.  He may hate it, love it, or settle for it, but at least the decision will be an educated one. 

[frugaldrummer]

Yes, I agree that the depression is the number one hurdle and we are working on that.  I agree that law would be full of people he wouldn't probably care to work with, and situations that would frustrate him.  Plus, I figure, he could easily still go to law school with an undergraduate degree in accounting or business if he chose to.

I also agree that he should spend some time seeing what the day to day work life is like in any of those careers before he invests too much time into something he would hate.  Studying a subject and working in that field are two completely different experiences.

[Beric01]

If he suffers from depression then he should not go into law, as the profession only exacerbates that tendency. 
If he does not suffer fools, then he should not go into law.  This is where people say 'but that means he'll be a great litigator and argue down with impunity those fools who face him!'  The reality is that, while opposing party and opposing counsel may very well be fools, the likelihood your client who is the one paying you the money, is also a fool. 
If he doesn't like schmoozing, then he shouldn't go into law.  Unless he want to be completely reliant on other attorneys as rainmakers to give him work. 

This is the part that should alarm you.  He doesn't like Schmoozing but is super savvy personable?  I think we would probably agree that if he is super savvy personable, then the depression is probably dictating his opinion on Schmoozing or, as the people in the working world call it 'Networking' or simply 'Working.'  It would be a shame to let the Depression steer his educational and resultant career decision simply based on a timeline resulting from father's obligation to pay tuition. 

It sounds like he needs to work through the problems he has.  I would imagine he's struggling with the dichotomy of being a young success vs. being free and young.  For long term decisions and emotional stability, I'd err on young and free, but hedge it by not going into debt.  Student and law school loans are debt.

If he truly thinks he wants to do law school, this is the most neutral, analytical approach I've found, and the one I recommend. 
http://www.artofmanliness.com/2012/02/27/faq-should-i-go-to-law-school/

Long answer short, you're asking for advice on a major, and then for a career, for your son who won't be taking classes for another year and a half.  The better question may be what can he do in that year and a half to have the knowledge to make those educational and subsequently career defining decisions.  From the article linked, and my own personal hindsight, I would say work a job, any job, at a law firm.  He may hate it, love it, or settle for it, but at least the decision will be an educated one.

Good link! this paragraph basically agrees with that I was saying word-for-word:

Also, what people don’t tell you is that the only jobs that offer six-figure salaries to people right out of law school are the big, established firms. And you have almost no chance of being hired by a big firm unless you graduate in the top 10% of your class–really these days you have to be one of the top ten people in your class for big firms to even take a look at you. And keep in mind that if you are lucky to get hired by a big firm, you’ll often be working 60-80 hours a week, so you’ll certainly be earning those Benjamins.

[Cwadda]

Lots of things in STEM to choose from. 4 years only may be a bit too limiting if he doesn't go with engineering or accounting. So I'll list some ideas for 6 years or less. I'm assuming he's not interested in going for medical school? I wouldn't count medicine out completely if medical school is the only thing in the way.

Science - Nursing, Nurse Practitioner, Occupational Therapy, Physician Assistant
Technology - Computer Science, MIS
Engineering - lots of fields to choose from here
Mathematics - Applied math, actuarial science, accounting, finance

Someone else said engineering seems like the best fit for the information you've given. An engineering degree is extremely valuable. I also feel like its difficulty as a major gets a bit exaggerated at times. If he's smart and has a good work ethic then it should definitely be manageable. Plenty of my engineering major friends have a good balance of school work and social life. Do the work, don't procrastinate, and you'll make it through.

[2Birds1Stone]

@NumbersMan - he wouldn't be going back to school for a year and a half, given the vagaries of the application process in our state.  He might go back to community college for a semester to finish up any pre-reqs.  He is looking for a job right now.  One financial incentive to get school done, his father has to contribute to his undergraduate education costs, but only up to age 25. So financially it is better if he returns sooner.

@2Birds1Stone - not sure he's enough of an extrovert for sales.

Darn, you do have to be fairly extroverted. I recently made the switch from retail management to enterprise management software sales and I love the new industry. Maybe once he exits his depressive phase and builds confidence this will change.

[Beric01]

I'm assuming he's not interested in going for medical school? I wouldn't count medicine out completely if medical school is the only thing in the way.

Spending 10 years in school and being hundreds of thousands in debt? That's enough for me to discount it, I don't know about you. My uncle is 50 and still paying off his student loans, and he's a neurosurgeon (and anti-mustachian, though that's another story). The problem with all of that time spent in school is not only the money you're spending, but the time - time you could have been spending making money. I would argue an engineer/business Mustachian with a high savings rate will forever be ahead of a doctor in net worth, simply because they have more years to earn money.

Science - Nursing, Nurse Practitioner, Occupational Therapy, Physician Assistant

The OP's son will encounter discrimination in all of these fields due to being male.

I also feel like its difficulty as a major gets a bit exaggerated at times. If he's smart and has a good work ethic then it should definitely be manageable. Plenty of my engineering major friends have a good balance of school work and social life. Do the work, don't procrastinate, and you'll make it through.

I guess it depends on your school. I went to a school well-known for engineering, but as a business major. Most of my friends were engineers, and I had WAY more free time than them - admittedly time I spend in my academic clubs and internships, but still, free time. I took a couple programming classes for fun, and they required 10+ hours a week of lab time and homework, more than all of my other classes combined. But I have ADHD and really struggle with sitting down and focusing on homework, so that didn't make engineering more attractive.

Engineering is an awesome field once you get your degree - you can specialize how you want. But you have to get your degree. My Dad, a software architect, has said he never touched calculus after he graduated, but that didn't prevent him from having to take 10+ higher math classes.

[happyfeet]

The nurse anesthetist next door to us makes $350,000.   So he says which seems a bit high but in checking averages for the career it is upwards of $200,000.

[aschmidt2930]

That's pretty much my reasoning as well - of the different undergraduate business-related degrees, what do you think are the benefits of, say, accounting vs. marketing vs. general business?

Good question! There's really 4 different sub-fields in business:

• Marketing - I chose marketing because I'm a very strategic thinker - I love strategy and marketing really works with every aspect of the company, so I presumed it would end up the most strategic field. But it's got a number of issues, and I wouldn't recommend it for just anyone. For one, it has unfortunate aspect of being a very "Soft" field - if you want a job you will need to really work on your resume. You need to have a "specialty" that will get you in the door in a particularity field, or you will end up with a sales job like most of my classmates did. I love technology, and surprisingly most of my peers in my marketing don't, so this worked to my advantage to get into a tech firm. You'll want at least 2 internships and your resume and interviewing skills are really big here (if you can't even market yourself, you've got nothing). Finally, it may take a number of years to get beyond the low-level marketing areas. Note that marketing will always be the first to be fired when a company is starting going down - thank goodness I work for an Asian tech company which doesn't let its employees go so easily.
• Accounting - basically the opposite of marketing. The "hardest skill" of the choices here. My brother is actually taking the last of his CPA exams (and I also took 3 accounting classes in college), so I have some familiarity with the field. It's very much about memorization and following the "rules". You're going to be very specialized, and doing a lot of the same things over again. You should be pretty good at studying and test-taking - a lot of people fail the CPA exam several times, though my brother doesn't have that issue. If you go to a good school that the Big 4 accounting firms recruit from, you WILL walk into a job. Job security is very good. Specialization is not a big deal here - just preferably get an internship and then get your job. You can go all the way up to a partner at an accounting firm, or get a specialization and work for a regular coimpany in the accounting department.
• Finance - I don't have so much familiarity here, but do have a couple friends in the field. It's less of a "soft" skill than marketing, but softer than accounting. A specialty may really help here, as will connections. It's going to require a lot more math knowledge as well. In retrospect, I might have gone with this field had I discovered MMM earlier - finance never interested me before I learned about MMM, but now it really interests me.
• MIS (management information systems). This is actually a really interesting field. Basically it's combining business and computer science. Very high job placement rates and starting salaries, but not as hard-core technical as pure engineering. You will look at structuring overall databases and systems, so it's more of a big-picture field. But your son doesn't seem to like programming, so it may or may not interest him. This can definitely become a consulting field, meaning you get a lot of variety in your everyday work.

Business to business technology sales.

It takes smart, sociable individuals, a bachelors degree, and drive.

The $$ is amazing, and regardless of economy good sales people will always have work.

This is another option, which I admit I avoided because I hate the idea of working in sales. Easiest way is to get a business/marketing degree, get some technical expertise (perhaps even just through a sales internship at a tech company) and get started. The pay is indeed very good. I admittedly hate talking on the phone and visiting customers/attending meetings all the time, but I shouldn't rule it out for the OP's son as everyone is different.

Get familiar with marketing automation (Marketo,Hubspot, ect) and a CRM system (Salesforce) and you can get a high paying job in marketing at a very young age.  This may not be ideal for the OPs son if he has no interest in programming or tech, but marketing jobs are easy to get if you build the skills the field needs.

[Beric01]

Get familiar with marketing automation (Marketo,Hubspot, ect) and a CRM system (Salesforce) and you can get a high paying job in marketing at a very young age.  This may not be ideal for the OPs son if he has no interest in programming or tech, but marketing jobs are easy to get if you build the skills the field needs.

Yup, this is basically the route I went. Learned CRM, SPSS, Access databases, and so forth. I got 3 good job offers out of college, and I find out that the company that hired me uses pure Excel - no CRM or ERP system whatsoever. Our supply chain consists of emailing Excel files to support a many-million dollar business. And that's very primitive Excel - I'm lucky to make a pivot table once a month. All sales reporting and graphing is completely manual. People say "you're so fast at Excel" and I'm dying inside because my more advanced skills are going to waste since the company has no interest in CRM.

[mozar]

When I was young, depressed, angry, and hating schmoozing I decided to go into accounting. There is some schmoozing in the Big 4 firms but you can stay away from that. It's a good field to be a depressed young person because the demand is so high you can easily find a job elsewhere when you've pissed off your boss. He could take some accounting classes and get a job doing payroll or something. I think it will help him get motivated for more schooling when he sees how boring it is. There are a few fields within accounting: forensics, audit, IT (accounting software), tax, advisory (consulting), budgets, etc. If he has amazing technical accounting skills and cpa he can go from making 55k to 100k in 4 years.

Are there people in your life that have different jobs that your son can talk to? It's hard to explain to a young person that they have to try some things in order to figure it out.

[ClaycordJCA]

I have a somewhat different take. Your son's career should be something that he enjoys doing and not just on what may be most financially rewarding.  Life is too short to spend so much of your time doing something you dislike. Particularly if one is prone to depression. Ask your son what he has studied in school that interests him. What possible careers interest him?  If he doesn't know yet, he should take the time to figure it out.  Take a careers class at the community college.   I know any number of unhappy lawyers and accountants who would much rather be retired or doing something else if they could, but now feel trapped by their circumstances.   I'm a lawyer. My son is interested in being a paramedic or a radiology technician.  I'm all for it if that will make him happy.

[Grid]

As a younger individual who has been through the throes of depression, let him figure it out!  It seems he's starting to build some desire for a specific financial future, so let him run with it.  Offer some guidance, but be sure he's making his own decisions.  If you try to make some decisions for him, you've sucked away some of what could have been his personal initiative to jumpstart his life.

[Cwadda]

Spending 10 years in school and being hundreds of thousands in debt? That's enough for me to discount it, I don't know about you. My uncle is 50 and still paying off his student loans, and he's a neurosurgeon (and anti-mustachian, though that's another story). The problem with all of that time spent in school is not only the money you're spending, but the time - time you could have been spending making money. I would argue an engineer/business Mustachian with a high savings rate will forever be ahead of a doctor in net worth, simply because they have more years to earn money.

I was trying to say this: I would discount medical school, but wouldn't necessarily discount the medical field. There are good jobs in the field that don't require medical school.

The OP's son will encounter discrimination in all of these fields due to being male.

By discrimination what do you mean? Social discrimination? Discrimination within the workforce? If anything, I'd expect male nurses to be highly sought after. But yes, I can see what you mean by a negative social stigma with stereotypes and all.

[Pigeon]

I would have him google the occupational outlook handbook and spend some time on the site.

There are lots of great jobs in the medical field beyond doctor and males in these fields are much more common in some things like nursing than they used to be. Others like PT and pharmacy have never been female dominated.

If he is math oriented and doesn't want to schmooze, actuarial science might be worth looking into. We have a program at the university where I work and those students have multiple high offers when they graduate.

I wouldn't encourage anyone to go into law unless they were interested in something like patent law and even then you can make a decent living as an agent without a law degree if you have a scientific background in the right areas.