Author Topic: University expenses, decisions  (Read 7869 times)

tzxn3

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 22
University expenses, decisions
« on: February 23, 2012, 10:45:08 AM »
Any of you who read the ERE forums might be familiar with a thread I posted a while back, talking about my various options.

A bit of background: Tuition is £9,000 ($14,000) a year, for all courses I've applied to. These fees are new this year. Despite the fact I'm a good student, there is a dearth of academic scholarships, and those that exist are generally means-tested, and my household income is far too high for me to qualify for those.

I've applied to do chemistry, and received offers back from four institutions, which are conditional on me attaining certain grades in my exams in a few month's time. I should easily be able to achieve these, as the course I'm applying to do (chemistry) is not especially competitive.

Ultimately, my thoughts can be distilled down into a few questions.

Should I go to university or do something else?
  • Learning a trade, becoming an electrician for instance, appeals to me in a way, and would cost a lot less.
  • However, I feel I should go to university, as I'm very good at academic learning. It may also give me far higher income potential.

Should I go to a more esteemed university, even if it's in a location where the cost of living (housing in particular) is significantly higher?
  • Having a degree from somewhere known to push its students harder may well benefit me (I also enjoy a challenge).
  • On the other hand, spending more money than is necessary for spurious, ill-defined future benefits isn't very sensible.

Should I go to university in my home city and live with my parents?
  • It would be significantly cheaper.
  • However, my parents don't really want me hanging around the place for the next 3-4 years.
  • Also, I've had people strongly advise against it, as I'll miss out on the experience of "student life".

« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 10:48:30 AM by tzxn3 »

fruplicity

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 69
Re: University expenses, decisions
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2012, 11:39:31 AM »
What about some sort of combination of your options? Like school part-time on top of learning a trade/working full-time? Or someone I think on GRS mentioned that they decided to pay to live on campus for one year to get the "experience" and make friends, then lived off-campus for the remainder of schooling but still maintained the active social circles from his first year on-campus.

Sparafusile

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 335
  • Age: 43
  • Location: Indiana, USA
Re: University expenses, decisions
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2012, 11:42:42 AM »
If you're worried about the cost of tuition, get a job at the university. At the very least, they'll give you a nice discount (I got 50%) and I've heard of other people getting a full ride depending on what job they performed. Not only will you be saving money on tuition, but you'll have an income and work experience after graduating.

MEJG

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 276
  • Location: Northeast US
Re: University expenses, decisions
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2012, 11:51:03 AM »
It is wonderful you are thinking about these things before going to school.  Good for you! 

I'm in the US so my thoughts might not take everything into consideration.  My thoughts on your questions:

Should you go to university?  If you are going to do Chemistry and you feel you can do well I'd say go for it.  In my experience Chemistry opens up some pretty good job areas.  You should spend some time thinking about if you WANT to be in any of those jobs though.

Should you go to a brand name University? NO.  By and large the price tag is not worth the name.  Spend time doing work experience over your breaks and the networking you'll do with be worth as much as a brand name University.

Live at home or away?  This is a little more gray.  I felt that living away at school was very valuable to me.  However, you need to price the difference and then make a judgement call.  Living at home will change your experience significantly.  Living cheaply with a bunch of other students was valuable for me.


What I will say is I wished I had worked more during school to reduce the cost.  I know people who worked too hard and burnt out so I'm not encouraging that.  I would say you should maintain a job, work reasonable hours and help offset the costs though.

tzxn3

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 22
Re: University expenses, decisions
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2012, 12:44:56 PM »
If you're worried about the cost of tuition, get a job at the university. At the very least, they'll give you a nice discount (I got 50%) and I've heard of other people getting a full ride depending on what job they performed. Not only will you be saving money on tuition, but you'll have an income and work experience after graduating.

I don't think this applies in the UK. I've certainly never heard of it happening. Tuition fees were never really a major expense in the UK until this year, there's been no time for people or places to adapt to the sudden increase.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 12:55:35 PM by tzxn3 »

Guitarist

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 210
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Kansas City
Re: University expenses, decisions
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2012, 02:44:21 PM »
The missing out on the student experience excuse is bull. It kind of sucks that your parents don't want you around though, mine had no problem with it. Had I been smart, I would have stayed for my entire college career, but I believed I was missing out on the student experience (which was basically me doing everything like I was already doing but with crappy roommates that helped ruin the friendship and spending more money to do it), so I wasted money paying somebody else's mortgage. You can spend your entire day on campus and only come home to eat and sleep. Study in the library, walk around outside when it's nice, make friends with people and hang out at their homes, just basically stay out of your parent's hair if they don't want you to be home for another 4 years.

onehappypanda

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 238
  • Location: Columbus, Ohio
Re: University expenses, decisions
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2012, 05:14:04 PM »
I'm in the US so maybe it's different, but IME going to a high-end university is rarely worth it unless you're in a field that relies heavily on reputation for hiring. With a little extra work and determination, you can get a great experience and make a name for yourself at a regular institution (here, state universities). You can learn to challenge yourself even if the institution doesn't do it for you.

So personally, I'd pick the less expensive school and work to get every bit of experience you can out of it. Look for opportunities to work on projects outside of class, if that's a possibility in your field. See if other institutions have summer programs you can attend. Work part time to defray costs if you can, but not so much that it kills your grades. Admittedly, I'm biased, because that's exactly what I did.

If you have the academic know-how and determination to make it in Chemistry, I'd do it. You should be able to get a decent-paying job with that degree, though check out the job market if you can as some are obviously doing better than others. It depends on the career, but I think nowadays a degree might give you some extra upward mobility and income earning potential. Again, this is based on a U.S. perspective though so it could be different elsewhere.

As far as living with parents vs. not, that's highly personal. I'm an independent person and couldn't wait to get out of my parent's house. I liked living with roommates, then loved living alone. That was totally worth it to me. But I also know some people have no issues living with parents, and you can definitely save some cash. Maybe you could come to a compromise where you'll live there for the first year or two, then save up some money to move out on your own- find a super cheap place and/or take on roommates to defray the cost of that. I think those are all valid options, you just have to decide what works for you.

Sunflower

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 245
  • Location: US
Re: University expenses, decisions
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2012, 06:49:03 PM »
Fair warning - this will likely be a long, rambling post.

I've been thinking about this post for most of the day and I'll admit right away that I'm not sure what you should do.

I'm working on my Ph.D. in chemistry right now at a top 10 school in the US. It is definitely possible to get a job in chemistry with a B.A. but depending on the type of work you want to do, most people decide to get a higher degree if they intend to stay in science. The really nice thing about advanced degrees in science is that you are paid a stipend (~$25,000 USD) and your 'tuition' is covered by the institution as well. (basically I get tuition taken out of my account but the same week I miraculously have a credit applied for the same amount). I have no idea how this works outside of the US but because I'm still a 'student' the federally subsidized loans that I took out for college are in deferment until I graduate. 

From what I know of the job market right now, a job with a B.A. will get you into a $20,000-$40,000/year range and a Ph.D. in industry is usually worth $80,000-$100,000 for starting salary (I'm not sure about a masters but usually you have to pay the tuition cost unless you're going straight for a Ph.D.). All of the recent graduates I know have found good jobs in industry if they didn't want to postdoc but I'm not sure how much this has to do with being at a good school with lots of well regarded professors/labs.

In terms of school recognition, I think that where you get an advanced degree matters much more than where you get an undergraduate degree as long as you pursue research opportunities throughout your time at university. While it's true that most of the students in my program came from places like UC Berkeley, MIT, etc., there are definitely students from lesser known schools as well. In the US we have programs that allow you to spend summers at other schools across the country to do research. I'm pretty sure a few of these programs are international and they usually pay a summer stipend that covers housing/food costs while letting you build up your resume and trying out different types of science.

Personally, I wouldn't trade my time away at college for anything in the world. I had a really great experience and have made lasting connections with many people which will continue to enrich my life. That being said, I went to a very unique, small liberal arts college where 90% of the student population lived on campus. My boyfriend went to a large state school close to his parents and lived at home for the last three years to save money. He absolutely hated living with a bunch of random other students and, as others have suggested you do, spent most of the day on campus or out with friends, returning home mostly to sleep. I was lucky enough to have some help from my parents and am only looking at $12,000 in student loans which will be paid off as soon as I graduate (I've been saving for them while in graduate school).  Since it sounds like you're in a different money situation, it might make more sense to stay closer to home.

Good luck with your choices! Trade school is definitely an option but you have to think about whether that would actually make you happy. I'm all for being frugal and making smart choices but you only get this one life to live. Much of the point of MMM is making good money choices so that you can actually live a good life and enjoy it (rather than being stuck at a job you hate because you need the money). If you think you could be just as happy with a hands on job like electrician then I'd suggest that you seriously consider it as an option. I've worked a couple jobs that required little to no intellectual stimulation and I hated it. For me, I'd rather love what I do for ten years in a job than suffer through five because its higher paying.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 07:49:11 PM by Chemistay »

Sunflower

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 245
  • Location: US
Re: University expenses, decisions
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2012, 07:47:43 PM »
Wait! One more Thing! (told ya it was going to be long)

I forgot to mention that there are several (high paying if sometimes morally ambiguous) fields that recruit scientists. I'm talking about Investment Banking and consulting groups (like BCG, Kinsey, Bain). Clearly I-banking has taken a hit in recent years but I know several people (in Europe and the US) who decided to leave science for consulting after getting bachelor's degrees or Ph.D. in chemistry. I guess what I'm trying to say is that a degree in science can open doors in many different fields....not that I'm biased towards promoting it or anything. :-P

CptPoo

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 87
  • Location: Indiana
  • I play music and stuff
Re: University expenses, decisions
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2012, 08:42:44 PM »
I am finishing up my last semester of my undergraduate degree right now, and I have already been accepted to the grad program that I want at the same university I am currently studying at. I have worked the entire time that I have been in college, and I have been lucky enough to find three jobs that I can hold down comfortably while studying. This has allowed me to pay the majority of my living expenses on my own, but I will still graduate with around $36,000 in debt. I'm lucky in that my mom will be paying about $8,000 so I effectively graduate with about $28,000 of debt that I will be responsible for.

While it has not been enjoyable to watch this debt pile up, it would have been much worse if I hadn't had my jobs. Being able to pay for most of my living expenses myself has incredibly beneficial. It will take me 5 years to finish my undergrad degree altogether which has done two things:

1. I had to pay for an extra year of school which put me about $8,000 more in debt.
2. I was able to cut way back on my credit hours this last year so that I could fit all three of my jobs in

If I were to have to quit one of my jobs I would have made about $3,000 less last year than I did, so this helped negate the financial burden of an extra year's tuition.

One of my jobs is for the university, but we don't get any tuition remission as undergrad students and the pay is only about 10% over minimum wage. If you find a school that does remission for undergrads then that is a very good deal, and I would definitely pursue that. The biggest benefit that I have gotten from this job is an offer to be a graduate assistant, which covers about 90% of the cost of grad school and pays a stipend that equals about minimum hourly wage. If you calculate that in terms of real wages, I will be getting paid over $20,000 a year to go to school. Freshman year, my sociology professor told my class that if you have to pay for grad school, you probably shouldn't be there.

What I want to recommend is this; don't try to rush through school at full blast, I have found that it is much more enjoyable to take it slower and find a way to get a job to help with expenses. The trick is just to find a good balance that gives you financial comfort, but still allows you to focus as much as you need on school. Living with your parents can be a great way to go to college on the cheap, but I would most definitely recommend living on campus the first year. This helps you build networks with other students at your school, which can be really beneficial in the long run.

tzxn3

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 22
Re: University expenses, decisions
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2012, 01:48:02 AM »
CptPoo: Courses in the UK are not very flexible: you either do it in three years, or don't do it. I may well do a masters as it's only one extra year on top of the three for a bachelor's. I was originally thinking about doing a PhD, but Jacob of ERE fame presented a cogent argument against it. At the very least, I may leave it until after I'm FI.

CptPoo

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 87
  • Location: Indiana
  • I play music and stuff
Re: University expenses, decisions
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2012, 08:22:40 AM »
In that case, a job will be a lot tougher to handle, and if you are expected to go full blast through school, there really isn't much room one. Sometimes you can find front desk jobs for the University that let you do homework during down time. I work as a computer technician at the library and when we are waiting for something for us to fix, I get plenty of time to read and study.

I would still recommend living on campus at least the first year. The connections you make are often as important as the stuff you learn that first year. After that, living with your parents would be a great way to reduce costs, but it is pretty nice to get out of the house and on your own. Right now, I go to a school that has one of the lowest cost of living in the US. That has been a huge money saver for me. So if you can find a place with a low cost of living it can be pretty cheap to go out on your own.

I would definitely pursue a masters, especially if it is only one more year. I know that the master's I am going after will improve my chances of getting a good paying job that I enjoy. In general, I think my graduate degree is just going to open a lot more doors that would not otherwise be there.

The main thing to keep in mind is that this is about what you want to learn. The reason it will take me 5 years to finish is because I got fooled in to going to a small, out-of-state, private school for my first year that cost about 2.5 times as much as the cheap, public school I go to now. I have enjoyed the public school immensely and, in general, the teachers have been fantastic. If you enjoy chemistry, you will learn it. The effect the institution has on the quality of education is marginal.
 

shedinator

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 300
  • Location: Eudora, KS
Re: University expenses, decisions
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2012, 08:42:42 AM »
CptPoo: Courses in the UK are not very flexible: you either do it in three years, or don't do it. I may well do a masters as it's only one extra year on top of the three for a bachelor's. I was originally thinking about doing a PhD, but Jacob of ERE fame presented a cogent argument against it. At the very least, I may leave it until after I'm FI.

Make sure you find out from professionals in your field if the Masters will add anything to your level of qualification. In many areas, the Masters is something that a person does on his/her way to the PhD, and the corresponding pay increase from the Masters can easily be negated by your student debt. I have a friend who got a job in a chemistry lab with his bachelor's degree, then went back for a masters. It took a year after he finished the degree before they gave him a "raise," which was only an added 3% on top of his annual increase. He basically spent a year's salary in order to see a pay increase that was the equivalent of gaining one extra year's worth of experience. Factoring in interest on loans He won't see a net profit from that experience until he's held the degree for 25 years.

tzxn3

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 22
Re: University expenses, decisions
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2012, 09:28:32 AM »
There is some scope for doing courses part time, or even doing distance learning through the Open University, which is well-respected. However, I don't really feel that's for me. It does make a lot of sense when I think about it, but it's unfamiliar territory.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 10:43:05 AM by tzxn3 »

MsLogica

  • Guest
Re: University expenses, decisions
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2012, 12:51:13 PM »
Hi tzxn3, I thought you might like a UK opinion to be added to the mix here.

I'm 24, so unfortunately (for you, not for me!) I'm one of those annoying people that went through on the last year of the old old system when the tuition fees were low and there were grants for low income families (which I'm from).  My sister (who is 18 months younger), went through on the system before yours, where the fees were £3000 and partially loaned, so she has more debt than me.  I'm just telling you all of this so you know where I'm coming from with my reply.  I'm going to title my responses to some of your comments to make it easier.  I studied Geology, and my sister did Alternative Medicine, so we both have science backgrounds.

Is going to uni worth it?

I assume you're doing chemistry with the hopes of getting a job in the field after.  If not, I'm going to stop you right there and tell you it's a waste of time!  Chemistry degrees are very "vocational", in that you're going to learn a lot of specific info about chemistry things.  As you seem to have noticed, British degrees are not like American degrees. You can't pick and choose your modules and you can't drop out early (although some courses will give you a diploma after two years if you decide to quit).

My housemate at uni was a chemist, and he loved his course, but it is hard work.  He knew that he wanted to be a chemist afterwards though, and it did not take him very long to find work after graduating.  If you get the option to do the 4 year Masters with a year in industry, take it!  The wages in your fourth year (your year in industry) are tax-free (because you're a student) and he pretty much earnt back his student debts in that year!  Plus, the year in industry gives you experience in the field and a reference for job hunting.  It is well worth it, and more vocational sciences should offer this, in my opinion!

Despite Astra Zeneca cutting 1000+ jobs in the UK, I still think there is a strong science sector in the UK, and you should not have problems finding a job related to chemistry when you graduate, assuming you want to do this.

Should I go to a more esteemed uni?

Personally, I would say ignore all Americans on this issue [sorry, but read on to find out why!].  Whether you like it or not, Britain is still obsessed with class (it's more of an issue than racism!).  One way to move social classes and demonstrate your versatility is to go to a prestigious university.  Now, if you're commenting in these forums from your country estate in the home counties, you can ignore what I'm saying because you'll be fine!  If you're from a working class or middle class background though, I personally think going to an older university will give you an extra boost on your CV.  As an example, I went to Durham (I took my own advice very seriously!), and it's one of the first things people remark on when they see where I got my degree.  (This is usually then followed by a discussion about how a relative of their's also went there and do I know such-and-such).  Whether you like it or not, these things still matter in the UK.

I would add a caveat here though that you should not sacrifice the quality of your course for your university's reputation.  Try to find a compromise.  Using myself as an example again, Durham has an old and well-respected Geology and Geography dept (now separate), so I did not sacrifice anything by going there.  One of my friends at uni had gone to Cambridge to do a Psychology degree, only to discover that Psychology at Cambridge isn't accredited (so she can't practice) and she had to go to Durham and do the whole course all over again.  Do not do this!  Courses are ranked yearly so you can have a look and see which universities are considered the best for your course.

Should I stay at home?

In my experience, people who stay at home during uni miss out on the "traditional" student life (drinking, late nights, embarrassing shenanigans, weeks with nothing to eat but pasta...).  However, if you're planning to keep your head down and get excellent grades, then that shouldn't be a problem.  I wouldn't recommend staying at home though.  It's not that common in the UK and you miss out on a lot.

Personally, I would recommend joining a couple of clubs and working hard regardless of where you live.  You need the socialising and to learn new skills alongside your course, and it bulks out your CV.

Jobs

I didn't work during term time, so I can't give advice on this, but I had friends that worked in bars and the money does help.  However, they were history students and only had a couple of lectures a week.  Chemistry has quite a full timetable and I wouldn't recommend it.

Working during the holidays is a must, though.  I always found it easier to find work in my home town than in my uni town, as there were less students looking for work at the same time!  I sent emails to companies in my degree area and offered my services (no job was too little. Even if I just spent a summer photocopying maps for someone, it still counts as work!).  I also worked in a local bookshop at Christmas.  I had experience in this so they were grateful with the help at a busy time.  Other popular summer jobs amongst my friends were jobs abroad (don't drink it all if you go to Spain!), cleaners in hospitals, office temping (good wages usually) and factory work (monotonous but lots of hours = lots of pay).

Debts

Don't forget that British student loans are not the same as student loans in the U.S.  The Student Loans Company (who belong to the Government and will give you your loans) will not start collecting on your debt until you're earning a minimum amount (currently £17500pa I think), and the interest on the loan is to match inflation, so it is not a traditional loan (they're not in it for profit).  At the moment, the interest on student loans is matched to the inflation thing applied to state pensions, so that it is fair.

It's important, therefore, to realise that your debt as a UK student is not the same as the debt to a U.S student, and it's the best loan you're ever going to get.  Because of the low interest rates, British financial advisors will always tell you to pay the minimum on this debt (which happens automatically when your tax goes out, if you're earning enough) and to put your money to other uses.  For this reason, I do not consider my student loans as a debt.  They are a tax I pay for my education, and it has no effect on my day-to-day life.  Any payments I make happen automatically in my pay slip and I'm better off building my savings than paying off the loan early.

I hope this all helps!

tzxn3

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 22
Re: University expenses, decisions
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2012, 05:04:01 PM »
How is it a waste of time to do chemistry and not get a job in that particular field? A degree in chemistry shows a high level of analytical, mathematical, and practical skill that is applicable to a huge variety of jobs. I chose chemistry precisely because I don't know what I want do for a career, but it seemed like a good degree to have.

The only other thing I'm equally interested in is computer science, but I'm skeptical about the quality of computer science courses, even at the more prestigious universities. It's a field that changes so fast, course content is outdated before it's even taught. The main advantage would be I wouldn't have to use my hands as much, and it would make it easier to get a job in software engineering, which appeals to me somewhat.

However, I feel it would be easier and more productive to teach myself computer science while doing a degree in chemistry, rather than vice versa.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 05:13:51 PM by tzxn3 »

Sunflower

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 245
  • Location: US
Re: University expenses, decisions
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2012, 12:35:59 PM »
How is it a waste of time to do chemistry and not get a job in that particular field? A degree in chemistry shows a high level of analytical, mathematical, and practical skill that is applicable to a huge variety of jobs. I chose chemistry precisely because I don't know what I want do for a career, but it seemed like a good degree to have.

The only other thing I'm equally interested in is computer science, but I'm skeptical about the quality of computer science courses, even at the more prestigious universities. It's a field that changes so fast, course content is outdated before it's even taught. The main advantage would be I wouldn't have to use my hands as much, and it would make it easier to get a job in software engineering, which appeals to me somewhat.

However, I feel it would be easier and more productive to teach myself computer science while doing a degree in chemistry, rather than vice versa.

I definitely agree that you'll be able to find jobs outside of science with a degree in chemistry - as I said above most people who don't stay in science go into consulting or finance but I'm sure that if you are aware of your skill sets and able to market them, you'll open up other job opportunities. (Maybe the job market will actually be better by the time you graduate even!)

I think you're approaching it the right way assuming you'll find chemistry courses interesting. I don't have a lot of personal experience with computer science but I do know some people who have taught themselves.

CptPoo

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 87
  • Location: Indiana
  • I play music and stuff
Re: University expenses, decisions
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2012, 08:09:03 PM »

Don't forget that British student loans are not the same as student loans in the U.S.  The Student Loans Company (who belong to the Government and will give you your loans) will not start collecting on your debt until you're earning a minimum amount (currently £17500pa I think), and the interest on the loan is to match inflation, so it is not a traditional loan (they're not in it for profit).  At the moment, the interest on student loans is matched to the inflation thing applied to state pensions, so that it is fair.

It's important, therefore, to realise that your debt as a UK student is not the same as the debt to a U.S student, and it's the best loan you're ever going to get.  Because of the low interest rates, British financial advisors will always tell you to pay the minimum on this debt (which happens automatically when your tax goes out, if you're earning enough) and to put your money to other uses.  For this reason, I do not consider my student loans as a debt.  They are a tax I pay for my education, and it has no effect on my day-to-day life.  Any payments I make happen automatically in my pay slip and I'm better off building my savings than paying off the loan early.

I hope this all helps!


That is pretty awesome! Student loans are a little more brutal here. I have managed to stay away from private loans mostly, but I still have to pay interest on my federal subsidized loans, even while I am still in school. Lucky for me, my family has helped me out a lot with that.

tzxn3

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 22
Re: University expenses, decisions
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2012, 07:05:12 AM »
The loan I'll get will have an interest rate of RPI (retail price index, currently just under 4%) + 3% while I'm still studying.

Once I've finished my course, interest will be calculated based on what I'm earning. If I earn £21,000 or less, it will be equal to the RPI. If I earn more than that, it will increase linearly up to a maximum of RPI + 3% somewhere around £50,000.

The minimum repayment is 9% of all income above £21,000. After 30 years, the entire loan is written off.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2012, 07:09:21 AM by tzxn3 »

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!