Author Topic: Car Conundrum - Facepunch may be required  (Read 3549 times)

Raymond Reddington

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Car Conundrum - Facepunch may be required
« on: April 22, 2019, 04:56:53 PM »
Looking for a facepunch (or not):

The facts:
-I'm 32, married, have over 230K saved (that's just me! DW has her savings too which I shall not post here, but it's more than mine as she's older than me), and have good cashflow. Have a mortgage at low interest, no credit card debt, own my car (2011 Ford Escape) outright.
-We keep our finances separate (hence the above), so everything I post below is strictly my numbers.
-I live in a suburban neighborhood of NYC - private house and single vehicle driveway. DW owns a car too. No kids.
-Work makes me commute all over the city - I'm OK with this because of the benefits and pay
-I have lived frugally almost my entire life. Spend less than you earn was part of my routine growing up. The only time in my life that I didn't was when I attempted to start my own business, which didn't work out, but that only set me back a few thousand when I was 19 so in hindsight it was more of an education than anything else.
-My cashflow is good - I currently save about 47% of my after tax income every month. I save another 12% pretax, which works about to about 55-56% overall since I don't penalize myself for not saving taxes (and remember I live in stupid high tax NYC with stupid high tax NYS!)
-I'm paying grad school tuition for the next 2 years, getting a discount, but it still works out to about 8K/year. So bump savings down to 35% after tax, 45-46% overall as of this writing. I'm not considering this "spending" because it is an investment in myself that will pay off in increased pay once I complete my degree.
-We have an old house and do a lot of DIY. We are trying to spend more time outdoors and traveling. We are about to become aunt/uncle for the first time, and who knows, someday maybe mom/dad but we are still figuring that out.

The scoop:
-My car is perfectly great. Have been happy with it. I can fit 8 foot 2x4s in it with no problem and have on multiple occasions. It's a small SUV, it's big enough, I'm comfortable in it, love the view of the road I get, and it's small enough to easily parallel park in NYC when DW gets the driveway. It's the preferred vehicle when my folks or anyone else comes to visit and we all go out together.
-Ever since I was a kid, I've always wanted an F-150.
-I'd be lying if I said that living frugally hasn't taken a toll on me at times.
-Despite being Mustachian ("money should only be spent if it makes you happy"), I despise bikes, scooters, and Priuses. To me, the Prius is the one of the most uncomfortable cars I've ever sat in as a passenger, and no way I can haul DIY project materials in the same manner, a bike seat is a rolling death trap with an enema in NYC, and a scooter is an uncomfortable kid's toy with a high center of gravity. So these are nonstarters.
-Took an F-150 for a test drive just on a whim. Brand new, the kind of thing that up until right now I would have never done. Absolutely loved it. Can take out a loan with 0 down by trading in the Escape. So unMustachian, I know. But the loan would be at 0%. Car insurance would go up by 600/ year. I can actually afford the payments comfortably. I can continue my pretax contributions to retirement. Post tax would take a hit for 2 years until I can make it through all my tuition bills, then go back to saving what I have been after 2.5 years when I graduate.
-Might get a promotion at work that would render this moot over the next few months and put me well ahead of the game in 2.5 years, and well on my way in 6 when the 0% car loan is paid off.

Do I need the F-150? NO. Do I want it? Hell yes. Would it make me happy? Probably. It'll make me happy every time I sit in it. It'll make me happy every time I go to pick up building materials and don't need to rent a UHaul. It'll make me happy when we go out of state with our nephew and his parents and we can tow a camper and enjoy the great outdoors from the comfort of the truck on a road trip. It'll make me happy when DW's parents visit and the 6 of us - me, her, my folks, and hers can all fit in one vehicle when we do something. Will I get frustrated from time to time when I can't find a parking spot? Of course. But I really want to keep this truck for 20 years if I can. And it gets better fuel economy than the Escape (granted, by 1 MPG) so outside of insurance, my costs of ownership aren't really going up in buying it. Do I allow myself this one once-in-a-lifetime indulgence?

Sidebar: Do I need it new? NO, of course not. But this is literally something I'd do once. I enjoy cars/trucks and I've never ever had a new vehicle in my entire life. Plus, from buying used, I've always found I've inherited someone else's bad driving habits in terms of the care & maintenance on the vehicle. This is a change to take care of one from jump, drive it carefully, and make sure it lasts half a million miles.

The thing is: the numbers really seem to work, especially if the promotion goes through which is likely since I've accepted an offer, but it is still subject to executive approval.

My goal is FATFIRE at 55, so it's not like I'm sentencing myself to years more of work by doing this, just altering the insane amounts of wealth I hope to build to be slightly less insane.

Do I need a facepunch? Or can I allow myself this one luxury?

Thoughts?

Montecarlo

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Re: Car Conundrum - Facepunch may be required
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2019, 05:13:28 PM »
What's your FI #?  Buy your F-150 when you reach it as a gift to yourself, and not a moment earlier.

noplaceliketheroad

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Re: Car Conundrum - Facepunch may be required
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2019, 05:15:57 PM »
I don't really have a strong opinion for you - your money, your choice. But one thing to think about when buying new is the body style cycle - most vehicles undergo a complete redesign every 3-4 years, so I'd make sure the 150 isn't due for one the next model year. If you're gonna buy a new car because you want the luxury, then at least make sure it's gonna look new for a few years.

Raymond Reddington

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Re: Car Conundrum - Facepunch may be required
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2019, 05:25:50 PM »
What's your FI #?  Buy your F-150 when you reach it as a gift to yourself, and not a moment earlier.

That's just the thing. There may be an opportunity cost in that. 23 years from now, driving may be very different than it is today. I certainly would not enjoy a Level 5 Autonomous F-150 the same way I would enjoy one today. And the vehicle would provide happiness now in the sense that we can do these adventures while we are still young, while our nephew is young, and if we decide to have kids they will be able to be part of these adventures as well. When I am 55, and he is in his 20s, it might be a very different dynamic vs. when he is still young.

FI# for me is highly variable. I'm aiming for an age, not a number. Pension plan at work will replace more than half my income when I retire independent of everything else me and DW save. House will be paid off by FI years, so living expenses cut in half at that time. I still think I can reach 1.5M easily on my own, even buying this vehicle, and that doesn't even account for DW's finances or having the pension.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2019, 05:57:18 PM by Raymond Reddington »

Montecarlo

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Re: Car Conundrum - Facepunch may be required
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2019, 06:02:47 PM »
What's your FI #?  Buy your F-150 when you reach it as a gift to yourself, and not a moment earlier.

That's just the thing. There may be an opportunity cost in that. 23 years from now, driving may be very different than it is today. I certainly would not enjoy a Level 5 Autonomous F-150 the same way I would enjoy one today. And the vehicle would provide happiness now in the sense that we can do these adventures while we are still young, while our nephew is young, and if we decide to have kids they will be able to be part of these adventures as well. When I am 55, and he is in his 20s, it might be a very different dynamic vs. when he is still young.

FI# for me is highly variable. I'm aiming for an age, not a number. Pension plan at work will replace more than half my income when I retire independent of everything else me and DW save. House will be paid off by FI years, so living expenses cut in half at that time. I still think I can reach 1.5M easily on my own, even buying this vehicle, and that doesn't even account for DW's finances or having the pension.

I would consider doing this:
Take your living expenses, subtract the mortgage, and multiply by 25.  That's roughly your FI #.  Save to get there in 5 years.  Buy truck.

Raymond Reddington

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Re: Car Conundrum - Facepunch may be required
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2019, 06:19:49 PM »
What's your FI #?  Buy your F-150 when you reach it as a gift to yourself, and not a moment earlier.

That's just the thing. There may be an opportunity cost in that. 23 years from now, driving may be very different than it is today. I certainly would not enjoy a Level 5 Autonomous F-150 the same way I would enjoy one today. And the vehicle would provide happiness now in the sense that we can do these adventures while we are still young, while our nephew is young, and if we decide to have kids they will be able to be part of these adventures as well. When I am 55, and he is in his 20s, it might be a very different dynamic vs. when he is still young.

FI# for me is highly variable. I'm aiming for an age, not a number. Pension plan at work will replace more than half my income when I retire independent of everything else me and DW save. House will be paid off by FI years, so living expenses cut in half at that time. I still think I can reach 1.5M easily on my own, even buying this vehicle, and that doesn't even account for DW's finances or having the pension.

I would consider doing this:
Take your living expenses, subtract the mortgage, and multiply by 25.  That's roughly your FI #.  Save to get there in 5 years.  Buy truck.

If that's the true FI number, I'll be there in less than 2. Wow never looked at it that way...so without the mortgage I could retire in 2 years on the 4% rule in NYC? Insane. That said, this is why I'm thinking of doing this. I'm not dipping into savings at all to do it, and it's a 0% loan. Instead of getting to the FI sans mortgage number in 2 years, it'll probably be 6 (coincidentally when the loan ends).

Montecarlo

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Re: Car Conundrum - Facepunch may be required
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2019, 06:33:25 PM »
What's your FI #?  Buy your F-150 when you reach it as a gift to yourself, and not a moment earlier.

That's just the thing. There may be an opportunity cost in that. 23 years from now, driving may be very different than it is today. I certainly would not enjoy a Level 5 Autonomous F-150 the same way I would enjoy one today. And the vehicle would provide happiness now in the sense that we can do these adventures while we are still young, while our nephew is young, and if we decide to have kids they will be able to be part of these adventures as well. When I am 55, and he is in his 20s, it might be a very different dynamic vs. when he is still young.

FI# for me is highly variable. I'm aiming for an age, not a number. Pension plan at work will replace more than half my income when I retire independent of everything else me and DW save. House will be paid off by FI years, so living expenses cut in half at that time. I still think I can reach 1.5M easily on my own, even buying this vehicle, and that doesn't even account for DW's finances or having the pension.

I would consider doing this:
Take your living expenses, subtract the mortgage, and multiply by 25.  That's roughly your FI #.  Save to get there in 5 years.  Buy truck.

If that's the true FI number, I'll be there in less than 2. Wow never looked at it that way...so without the mortgage I could retire in 2 years on the 4% rule in NYC? Insane. That said, this is why I'm thinking of doing this. I'm not dipping into savings at all to do it, and it's a 0% loan. Instead of getting to the FI sans mortgage number in 2 years, it'll probably be 6 (coincidentally when the loan ends).

Well at that point youíll be FI once the mortgage is paid off or if you geoarbitrage.  And compounding will really be your friend.  Itís your gift to your future self.  In two years you can happily buy the truck, and know that you are already set for life.

RWD

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Re: Car Conundrum - Facepunch may be required
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2019, 08:26:30 PM »
Is it worth the ~50% premium to buy a brand new F-150 compared to a two-year old model? New vehicle depreciation is brutal. The first two years of F-150 ownership cost about as much in depreciation as the following nine years.
https://usedfirst.com/cars/ford/f-150/

I really don't understand enjoyment of trucks. I drove an F-150 once and hated it.

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: Car Conundrum - Facepunch may be required
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2019, 08:33:23 PM »
So I binge-watched a bunch of Dave Ramsey and now I finally get it: cars are worse than crack cocaine for some people (not me!). You will buy the truck. It won't make you happier after about 3 months (notwithstanding the replication crisis, hedonic adaptation is probably a real thing).

red_pill

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Re: Car Conundrum - Facepunch may be required
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2019, 08:49:13 PM »
Not sure what your parking situation is not just at your house but in shopping areas, work, etc.  We downgraded from a pick up to a smaller SUV after we moved to the city and I donít regret it one bit. Loved having a truck, hated driving or parking it.  Any chance you would not like the size of it?  Could you rent one for a week to make sure itís not too big for your realities?

Also, trucks suck from an environmental standpoint.  Thatís a lot of CO2 youíll be spewing out. 

Telecaster

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Re: Car Conundrum - Facepunch may be required
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2019, 09:36:39 PM »
FI# for me is highly variable. I'm aiming for an age, not a number. Pension plan at work will replace more than half my income when I retire independent of everything else me and DW save. House will be paid off by FI years, so living expenses cut in half at that time. I still think I can reach 1.5M easily on my own, even buying this vehicle, and that doesn't even account for DW's finances or having the pension.

No one can tell you the best way to maximize your own happiness, but your opinion about number vs. age could change a lot.  Dream jobs can become nightmare jobs.  Great companies can go out of business, or be bought out by shitty companies.   Pension plans can go bust.  You or your spouse might have a health issue that prevents you from working.   Keep that stuff in mind.

And don't dismiss a used vehicle so quickly.  These days, you can easily check on a vehicle's maintenance history especially of the vehicle has been maintained at the dealer.  I don't know what the depreciation on an F-150 is like, but I bet it is amazing.  If buying a lightly used vehicle buys you a year a freedom, shouldn't you at least consider it?

Raymond Reddington

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Re: Car Conundrum - Facepunch may be required
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2019, 11:39:47 PM »
Not sure what your parking situation is not just at your house but in shopping areas, work, etc.  We downgraded from a pick up to a smaller SUV after we moved to the city and I donít regret it one bit. Loved having a truck, hated driving or parking it.  Any chance you would not like the size of it?  Could you rent one for a week to make sure itís not too big for your realities?

Also, trucks suck from an environmental standpoint.  Thatís a lot of CO2 youíll be spewing out.

I'm sure, as with anything, that there will be times parking frustrates me...but parking would frustrate me with any vehicle in NYC. However, the area where I live is not a busy commercial area and there is ample parking during the daytime. At night, things get tight, but if I'm coming home late even now, DW usually gives me the driveway. And that's because when I'm not driving to work (which is plenty of times because of the realities of NYC and the headache of bringing a car of any size to certain parts of the city), I make sure she gets the driveway.

To answer your question, yes I enjoyed driving it a lot. Most shopping I do is at malls with large parking lots and even with the Escape I prefer to park far away from people and take a nice long walk to the store from the back of the lot, so I don't really anticipate that changing. Work parking is either ample or nonexistent, depending on location. When nonexistent, I take the iron horse.

Environmentally, the F-150 has lower emissions (only slightly) than my Escape, so it'd actually be an improvement. I also struggle with that at times, and I consider the reduced number of flights I've taken in life to be more my contribution to the environment than anything else. Just the way I've always looked at it.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2019, 11:42:30 PM by Raymond Reddington »

Raymond Reddington

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Re: Car Conundrum - Facepunch may be required
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2019, 12:01:10 AM »
So I binge-watched a bunch of Dave Ramsey and now I finally get it: cars are worse than crack cocaine for some people (not me!). You will buy the truck. It won't make you happier after about 3 months (notwithstanding the replication crisis, hedonic adaptation is probably a real thing).

The crazy thing is I have literally never been one of these people. I've driven a Plymouth Horizon, Subaru Forester, a 1987 Chevy 10 Van (in 2006!), and the Escape. That's it. I just have reached a point where I've worked very hard and all my goals seem within short term reach - it's hard to explain but this is something I always wanted at some point in life - and for the first time it seems like I can do it without setting myself back - all I'd be doing is slowing down for 6 years...crazy thing is if the promotion goes through as I expect it to, I end up being right where I am now before having purchased the vehicle.

DW always tells me I live in the future too much, and sometimes we counterbalance each other...she's worked on her Mustachianism a lot because of me, and I just see this as an opportunity to have something I always wanted to have. It's tough, I don't really know where I was going with this thread TBH because part of me still thinks I'm being stupid while the other part is saying that it's time to enjoy the spoils of my hard work in a non-destructive way. The Escape has been a great car...I will miss it, but I've always wanted to do this.

I guess more than anything, I was looking to hear from people who had done it and either regretted it horribly, or maybe just it wasn't what they expected but they still got enjoyment out of it, or maybe they felt it was 100% worth it, provided it could be afforded. Tomorrow is never guaranteed. Health is never guaranteed. I fear that I will miss out on the opportunity to do these kinds of things if I don't do them soon. Climbing into a truck bed you've converted into a swimming pool for the day or hooking up a 5000 lb. RV with adult nephews and (maybe) children in my 50s doesn't seem like the lasting memory that doing it now is, while we all still have our youth. If our health goes south, so does our wealth, and we will have made sacrifices only to lose savings without having had any fun - which is a fear that literally every one of us struggles with to some degree given our healthcare system - the thought that no matter how well you plan, circumstance can wreck everything. My parents have always scrimped and saved, but instead of buying a pickup, they bought land, built a vacation home on it, and lived paycheck to paycheck as renters for years while paying off a vacation property they never fully lived in or rented out and sold for a loss - so the pitfalls of a bad investment are foremost in my mind. They recovered from it, and I know they regret not having had more fun when they had their youth. Ironically, when I spoke to my mother, one of the most frugal people I know, she didn't try to talk me out of it - instead she (who never got a driver's license) confided in me that she had always wanted to own a pickup (meaning my father driving, obviously). Needless to say, when I read off the price tag to her, I still expected shock and a stern scolding to smack me back to Mustachian reality. But it never came. Instead she...encouraged me to do it if it would make me happy.

I've always interpreted Mustachianism as a balance between prioritizing fun and happiness, smart investing principles, and not blindly lighting money on fire on things that aren't important to you just because other people do it. I've agonized over this for 2 months - how to balance this philosophy with an innate urge dating back 15 years to (for those very same Mustachian happiness reasons) purchase the exact symbol of opulence and waste that MMM derides in an effort to paradoxically lead a lifestyle more true to onself and one's happiness. And so this is the reason for this post. I have no desire to ever purchase a new car again after this - it just feels kind of "bucket list" to me...I can't quite explain why, and I thought it would go away after some time, but it really hasn't. And marketing has never really worked on me, so I'm really starting to think it's something else - that maybe this really is important to me - and if all signs point to yes, and I do it...I am hoping that it's not a mid-life phase that will fade in 5 minutes (it really doesn't feel like it), but also moreso that it's not a slippery slope. I've been disciplined for so long that sometimes I just feel that I need something significant for now to reinforce my desire to stay the course - even if, somewhat counterintuitively, it slows my pace on that same course. But as long as I'm not going backwards, right? And what better way than to learn car skills than by buying one of the most popular, customizable, and modified vehicles on the planet and taking up a solemn oath to myself to take care of it for as many years as possible? Is that Mustachian? Or am I just tricking myself? It's hard to say, but I am really struggling with this.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2019, 12:18:13 AM by Raymond Reddington »

InterfaceLeader

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Re: Car Conundrum - Facepunch may be required
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2019, 12:14:24 AM »
What if...
Instead of getting the promotion you lose your job?
What if your spouse loses her job?
Can you still afford the extra insurance and payments?

Another way to do it is maybe to calculate how many extra months/years you'll be working before you are FI if you go ahead, and decide if it's worth it.

If yes, then it's your money.

Raymond Reddington

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Re: Car Conundrum - Facepunch may be required
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2019, 12:28:41 AM »
What if...
Instead of getting the promotion you lose your job?
What if your spouse loses her job?

We both have in this day and age, what could be termed as very good job security. In short, if I lose my job it will be my own fault, not the product of layoffs, budget, automation, or other external factors. Same with DW.

Can you still afford the extra insurance and payments?

At DEFCON 1, I could pull liquid investments without penalty. But I don't see this happening, and I have plenty of emergency funds I could pull first at DEFCON 5. Somewhere around DEFCON 2 or 3, I could postpone grad school if I had to and finish my master's later.

Another way to do it is maybe to calculate how many extra months/years you'll be working before you are FI if you go ahead, and decide if it's worth it.

Four, barring a major negative stochastic market event. If I invested the money in car payments and insurance at 5% instead (just to be conservative), I will have suffered an opportunity cost of a little over $8000 + the depreciation of the vehicle over that time frame at the end of 6 years. The $8000 alone will represent an opportunity cost of just shy of 20K after 23 years when I am ready to FATFIRE. The sting of the depreciation will be mitigated somewhat by holding onto the vehicle for an extremely long time (come on, 20 years!) and not having a car payment after 6 years.

If you worstcase it and assume the depreciation goes to actual zero, then the opportunity cost of not investing the entire purchase price of the vehicle into investments earning 5% at the dates in which payments are due and calculating annual returns subsequent to the payoff date, the opportunity cost of this is 135K in age 55 dollars...which will mean a reduction in annual income in retirement of about 4K/year. Mind you, these numbers do not include the cost of a vehicle that would be required at some point in the next 10 to replace my current one - which, even if used and paid for all-cash, would still bear a cost to me that would reduce this number.

If yes, then it's your money.

Just struggling because it feels so right yet so...unnatural.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2019, 12:36:48 AM by Raymond Reddington »

RWD

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Re: Car Conundrum - Facepunch may be required
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2019, 06:49:13 AM »
Climbing into a truck bed you've converted into a swimming pool for the day [...]

... is a good way to damage your truck.
https://jalopnik.com/why-a-bedliner-company-begs-stop-turning-trucks-into-s-1571865086

RWD

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Re: Car Conundrum - Facepunch may be required
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2019, 07:07:15 AM »
You seem intent on doing this despite the title of this thread. So here's someone telling you it's a great financial decision (but only if you buy the Raptor):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBcNfIwnJK4

acepedro45

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Re: Car Conundrum - Facepunch may be required
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2019, 07:44:43 AM »
Quote
...marketing has never really worked on me...

Are you SURE about this? Because (and forgive the facepunch) a whole lot of your postings seem like copy from the advertising wing of the Ford Motor Company. All this stuff about how it will make you happy every time you sit in it and help create lasting memories of love and family bonding with your nephews? In my experience, consumption items don't create those things. In some ways that is the fundamental MMM counter-cultural message. YOU create those memories and experiences with your family. You don't buy that happiness from a corporation in the form of a cup of coffee or a shiny car.

Can you afford it? Honestly, even with all this posting I am still not sure because I'm still not seeing net worth or annual spending, but probably yes. Is it in keeping with the principles of mustachianism? Absolutely not.

P.S. Anyone else think Raymond Reddington might be an alias for Boarder42 come back to have one last laugh at us?

RWD

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Re: Car Conundrum - Facepunch may be required
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2019, 08:02:18 AM »
P.S. Anyone else think Raymond Reddington might be an alias for Boarder42 come back to have one last laugh at us?
The account pre-dates boarder42's ban by a couple months. The spelling and capitalization is too good to be him anyway.

doingfine

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Re: Car Conundrum - Facepunch may be required
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2019, 08:19:46 AM »
My rule of thumb for purchasing vehicles is that if you can write a check and pay for it without materially affecting your emergency fund and are ok with the tradeoffs spending that money will incur, go for it.

It sounds like you probably have the assets to do this however you are getting wrapped up in the 0% financing and payments. Would you purchase this vehicle today if you had to take that $40k out of your existing assets as a lump sum? If so, then go ahead, even get the financing. But if you are using monthly payments as a way to disguise the true cost of the vehicle, you should wait or buy something cheaper that passes the above test.

Jon Bon

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Re: Car Conundrum - Facepunch may be required
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2019, 08:31:04 AM »
Well this is MMM, and Cars, especially fully sized trucks..... Haters gonna hate!

I say do it, but maybe pick up one that is 1-2 years old. It sounds like you guys are doing pretty good at your DINK lifestyle and a 30k truck would not be that big of an impact on your NW. ALSO to note trucks dont effing depreciate! Its insane compared to most cars/suvs. So if you do buy it, and it does not work out or you hate it or need to sell. You can without taking a terrible hit like you would on a new giant ass SUV or something.

I do worry about you taking payments on a new truck though Those two things are strictly forbidden! 

Seriously though everyone has their thing, boats, bikes, cars, etc. buying a more expensive and less efficient version of an object that you need to have anyways is not a unforgivable sin.

Buy the (used) truck.


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Re: Car Conundrum - Facepunch may be required
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2019, 08:34:12 AM »
I think you need to do more hard thinking before you buy, because you have a massive pair of rose-colored glasses on.  You are dreaming of the (very occasional) exciting adventure, and discounting the mounting annoyance of the (everyday) hassle of parking the beast.*  You are envisioning the fun of traveling with your nephew, but you haven't considered the costs of the camper, the gas while towing something, the significant extra cost of depreciation, and all that extra stuff.  I call this the "even George Clooney throws his socks on the floor."  And you also have not considered hedonic adaptation.  Because let me tell you, when you let yourself "upgrade," telling yourself it's a one-time-only treat, what you've really done is set a new floor in what you consider acceptable for your transportation.  What's the average lifespan of an F-150?  So build in replacement vehicles on that frequency, costing the same or more.  Ask me how I know.

So the first thing you do is really focus on the downsides.  Imagine yourself parking that puppy every night, fussing with your DW over who gets the driveway.  Imagine yourself writing the check every month to pay for it -- hell, count out that money in cash, and imagine yourself handing that over every month.  Imagine what it will feel like when you are covering the mounting repair bills, the nth tire/brake replacement, and you start to dream about paying for a newer, spankier truck.  Imagine your DW wanting to fix up the [insert home item here], and you not wanting to do that yet because you still have your truck payment, and getting snippy with each other.  Because all of that will happen, and so you need to weigh that before you dive in.

FWIW, I am a car girl.  I have wanted a StupidCar for over 25 years, sometimes so bad I wanted to cry.  But I waited until (1) we were FI, *including* the additional cost of the car/gas/insurance/depreciation; (2) I had other higher priorities covered (i.e. college funding); (3) I could write a check for it without blinking; and (4) I found a gently-used model with all the features I wanted that saved me about 30% off the original purchase price.  Oh:  and my StupidCar is of a variety that tends to retain some of its value -- at least better than an F-150.  So if the shit hits the fan, I can always sell it for a good chunk of what I paid and downgrade myself to a cheaper car (or -- I hope -- move to a condo where I won't need one).  Oh, and a hugely unexpected added bonus:  I have enjoyed the hell out of the car with zero guilt -- biggest check I ever wrote, except for a house, and yet it's also the only check I ever wrote that didn't have me wanting to throw up.  Precisely because I did wait 25 years, until we were FI and had all of our more important priorities completely covered.  First time in my life I have been able to treat myself with just pure enjoyment, knowing that I earned it.  I know I am enjoying it so much more than if I had bought it years ago and always had this niggling feeling that I was putting my own frivolity in front of my family's needs.

In your case, if you are planning to work for another 20 years and are well on track to be FI by then even with the additional truck/insurance/maintenance/replacement costs, and you have sufficient emergency savings and cash on hand to cover any crises, and you have any future kids' needs and home repairs covered, and you still have enough cash left over to pay cash for the truck without affecting those higher priorities**, and you can cover your 0% loan payments without affecting the savings you need to execute that plan, then you are in a position to buy the truck.  But I think that's not right now, because you have been very clear that buying the truck now would make a big dent in your post-tax savings to cover the payments while you're still in school.

So wait until you're done paying for grad school.  That will free up cash that you can then divert to the truck, without requiring you to cut back on your savings.  And then you can view the truck as your reward for getting through grad school (which might help limit the hedonic adaptation a bit, if you're telling yourself this is a special one-time treat for hitting a huge milestone).  IOW, set that dearly-beloved truck up as the Thing You Are Doing All This Hard Work For, and then feel the extra satisfaction when you finally get there. 

And for Pete's sake, buy a gently-used one.  I gotta tell you, I don't enjoy my StupidCar one whit less because someone else got to drive it before I did.  I mean, there's stupid, and there's Stupid. 

*Hint:  we take much more pleasure and experience much more annoyance out of things we experience every day than things that we do only occasionally.  This is why things like big trips and big purchases usually don't make us as happy as we think they will.

**I am not saying you should pay cash -- my rule is that you need to be able to.
 

iluvzbeach

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Re: Car Conundrum - Facepunch may be required
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2019, 08:40:18 AM »
I think you are emotionally invested in buying this truck but deep down know it would be a mistake in the long run. Seriously, did you expect to make this post and have a bunch of people tell you ďyesĒ or were you subconsciously hoping and expecting we slap the hell out of you and bring you back to reality?

I would absolutely advocate for keeping the Escape, at least until you finish grad school. Then, at that time, if you still really want the truck find a gently used one that has already taken the new car depreciation.

RWD

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Re: Car Conundrum - Facepunch may be required
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2019, 08:56:37 AM »
ALSO to note trucks dont effing depreciate! Its insane compared to most cars/suvs. So if you do buy it, and it does not work out or you hate it or need to sell. You can without taking a terrible hit like you would on a new giant ass SUV or something.
They still have the huge initial depreciation when new. About 1/3 of the value in the first two years.

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Re: Car Conundrum - Facepunch may be required
« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2019, 09:01:32 AM »
The one thing that jumps out to me, is saying the new F150 will get better mileage than your escape.  I highly doubt that. Truck mpg ratings are ... optimistic.

I (we) have a 2012 Escape V6 awd xlt, averages 22 mpg. Our 2014 F150 4x4 long box 3.5EB, averages 16 despite the window sticker claiming 17/21. The only time it did more than 20 was driving through eastern Oregon back when the speed limit was 55.

Also, trucks don't depreciate much here. Buying new with incentives is often better than mildly used (<5 years).

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Re: Car Conundrum - Facepunch may be required
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2019, 09:29:43 AM »
I think you need to do more hard thinking before you buy, because you have a massive pair of rose-colored glasses on.  You are dreaming of the (very occasional) exciting adventure, and discounting the mounting annoyance of the (everyday) hassle of parking the beast.*  You are envisioning the fun of traveling with your nephew, but you haven't considered the costs of the camper, the gas while towing something, the significant extra cost of depreciation, and all that extra stuff.  I call this the "even George Clooney throws his socks on the floor."  And you also have not considered hedonic adaptation.  Because let me tell you, when you let yourself "upgrade," telling yourself it's a one-time-only treat, what you've really done is set a new floor in what you consider acceptable for your transportation.  What's the average lifespan of an F-150?  So build in replacement vehicles on that frequency, costing the same or more.  Ask me how I know.

So the first thing you do is really focus on the downsides.  Imagine yourself parking that puppy every night, fussing with your DW over who gets the driveway.  Imagine yourself writing the check every month to pay for it -- hell, count out that money in cash, and imagine yourself handing that over every month.  Imagine what it will feel like when you are covering the mounting repair bills, the nth tire/brake replacement, and you start to dream about paying for a newer, spankier truck.  Imagine your DW wanting to fix up the [insert home item here], and you not wanting to do that yet because you still have your truck payment, and getting snippy with each other.  Because all of that will happen, and so you need to weigh that before you dive in.

FWIW, I am a car girl.  I have wanted a StupidCar for over 25 years, sometimes so bad I wanted to cry.  But I waited until (1) we were FI, *including* the additional cost of the car/gas/insurance/depreciation; (2) I had other higher priorities covered (i.e. college funding); (3) I could write a check for it without blinking; and (4) I found a gently-used model with all the features I wanted that saved me about 30% off the original purchase price.  Oh:  and my StupidCar is of a variety that tends to retain some of its value -- at least better than an F-150.  So if the shit hits the fan, I can always sell it for a good chunk of what I paid and downgrade myself to a cheaper car (or -- I hope -- move to a condo where I won't need one).  Oh, and a hugely unexpected added bonus:  I have enjoyed the hell out of the car with zero guilt -- biggest check I ever wrote, except for a house, and yet it's also the only check I ever wrote that didn't have me wanting to throw up.  Precisely because I did wait 25 years, until we were FI and had all of our more important priorities completely covered.  First time in my life I have been able to treat myself with just pure enjoyment, knowing that I earned it.  I know I am enjoying it so much more than if I had bought it years ago and always had this niggling feeling that I was putting my own frivolity in front of my family's needs.

In your case, if you are planning to work for another 20 years and are well on track to be FI by then even with the additional truck/insurance/maintenance/replacement costs, and you have sufficient emergency savings and cash on hand to cover any crises, and you have any future kids' needs and home repairs covered, and you still have enough cash left over to pay cash for the truck without affecting those higher priorities**, and you can cover your 0% loan payments without affecting the savings you need to execute that plan, then you are in a position to buy the truck.  But I think that's not right now, because you have been very clear that buying the truck now would make a big dent in your post-tax savings to cover the payments while you're still in school.

So wait until you're done paying for grad school.  That will free up cash that you can then divert to the truck, without requiring you to cut back on your savings.  And then you can view the truck as your reward for getting through grad school (which might help limit the hedonic adaptation a bit, if you're telling yourself this is a special one-time treat for hitting a huge milestone).  IOW, set that dearly-beloved truck up as the Thing You Are Doing All This Hard Work For, and then feel the extra satisfaction when you finally get there. 

And for Pete's sake, buy a gently-used one.  I gotta tell you, I don't enjoy my StupidCar one whit less because someone else got to drive it before I did.  I mean, there's stupid, and there's Stupid. 

*Hint:  we take much more pleasure and experience much more annoyance out of things we experience every day than things that we do only occasionally.  This is why things like big trips and big purchases usually don't make us as happy as we think they will.

**I am not saying you should pay cash -- my rule is that you need to be able to.

+1

+My $.02:  The SO CALLED 0% financing is offsetting negotiating room in the price.  You are a smart guy, you need to take off the rose colored glasses.  Buy used for cash.  If it doesn't seem new, take it to the best auto detailer you can find and have them compound it, wax it, scrub and shine it, buy some "new car smell" air freshener and you won't know the difference, except your bank account will be fatter:)

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Re: Car Conundrum - Facepunch may be required
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2019, 09:40:11 AM »
An F150 refresh is expected to be announced this year.

My recommendation is to finish grad school and then wait for the right deal on a gently used F150. Find the best one - what cab / bed configuration do you want? Which engine do you want? Which option packages do you want? What color do you want?

CarGurus has the best search and filtering options of any car sales site I have found so far.   Keep an eye on the market so you know what price trends are like, and when the time comes go buy a gently used truck the south / southwest (no rust) and have it Fluid Film / etc undercoated before its first NY winter.  Undercoat it every year before winter and it'll last you a long time. 

My "I want a new car" itch is often scratched by obsessively researching the ins and outs of whatever I'm interested in at the time.  Sometimes I end up buying something (like my Corvette last year) and sometimes I end up deciding not to buy something (BMW 335i due to chronic high pressure fuel pump problems), etc.

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Re: Car Conundrum - Facepunch may be required
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2019, 10:03:32 AM »
Everyone has beaten me to the punch.  You have some massive cognitive biases at work here.  You ask for reasons not to buy a new truck and when those reasons are given, you discount them all in ways that are quite frankly a little thin on actual logic.  Oh parking isnít that bad, we can juggle the driveway. Oh, itís not that bad on gas the, escape is a bit worse. 

So why did you ask for feedback on your plans if you were so set on it already?   What were you thinking you would be told that you donít already know?

Most of the people who live on my street would just go buy something if they wanted it so bad. And they probably wouldnít think twice about it.  So, if you want to be like them then go get it.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2019, 10:15:56 AM by red_pill »

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Re: Car Conundrum - Facepunch may be required
« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2019, 10:54:35 AM »
My "I want a new car" itch is often scratched by obsessively researching the ins and outs of whatever I'm interested in at the time.  Sometimes I end up buying something (like my Corvette last year) and sometimes I end up deciding not to buy something (BMW 335i due to chronic high pressure fuel pump problems), etc.

My trick is to wash, wax, vacuum, the heck out of the thing, fix any nagging issues that you have been ignoring/putting off. Makes it a lot more satisfying to get into and makes your car just look nicer.

 

Raymond Reddington

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Re: Car Conundrum - Facepunch may be required
« Reply #29 on: April 26, 2019, 01:22:38 PM »
An F150 refresh is expected to be announced this year.

My recommendation is to finish grad school and then wait for the right deal on a gently used F150. Find the best one - what cab / bed configuration do you want? Which engine do you want? Which option packages do you want? What color do you want?

CarGurus has the best search and filtering options of any car sales site I have found so far.   Keep an eye on the market so you know what price trends are like, and when the time comes go buy a gently used truck the south / southwest (no rust) and have it Fluid Film / etc undercoated before its first NY winter.  Undercoat it every year before winter and it'll last you a long time. 

My "I want a new car" itch is often scratched by obsessively researching the ins and outs of whatever I'm interested in at the time.  Sometimes I end up buying something (like my Corvette last year) and sometimes I end up deciding not to buy something (BMW 335i due to chronic high pressure fuel pump problems), etc.

That was how this started. I honestly didn't think it was feasible. Just a pipe dream all the way. Maybe something to buy in retirement...but the more I thought about it and researched it, the more I wanted it and the less I could find against it.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2019, 01:25:19 PM by Raymond Reddington »

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Re: Car Conundrum - Facepunch may be required
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2019, 01:32:47 PM »
Everyone has beaten me to the punch.  You have some massive cognitive biases at work here.  You ask for reasons not to buy a new truck and when those reasons are given, you discount them all in ways that are quite frankly a little thin on actual logic.  Oh parking isnít that bad, we can juggle the driveway. Oh, itís not that bad on gas the, escape is a bit worse. 

So why did you ask for feedback on your plans if you were so set on it already?   What were you thinking you would be told that you donít already know?

Most of the people who live on my street would just go buy something if they wanted it so bad. And they probably wouldnít think twice about it.  So, if you want to be like them then go get it.

I guess mainly I'm looking for lived experiences. I like cars. Many Mustachians do. I was looking for feedback from people who've maybe made this decision, one way or the other, and what they thought. People who maybe sacrificed some long term wealth for short term happiness in balance, and whether or not it worked out for them. People who didn't, and watched something they really wanted get redesigned such that they didn't want the newer version that was available when they were finally ready to take the plunge. There is an opportunity cost to everything. So much of what I do in the rest of my life, especially at work, requires me to place my better days in the future. I've worked years of odd hours traveling all over NYC, chasing promotions, vacations cancelled at the last minute, missed family events, last minute scheduling changes, long hours, changing days off...and for what? For great benefits, strong pay which I've invested wisely over the years and somehow through it all I met a great girl who puts up with all of this (and all of me). It's hard to sit here and say that in 23 years, when things will be very different, when tomorrow is never guaranteed that I will do this then. It's hard to even say that about any number of years, honestly. I already do that about money, but it's hard to do that about lived experiences. I get it, some people aren't car people. So that's mainly the people I'm asking.

I reacted the way I did because I really don't care what a holier than thou person who intends to retire on 15K/year who thinks "Dude an F-150? You should have traded your Escape in for a Prius or a Razor scooter!" thinks. They don't know my struggle, and I don't really sympathize with theirs. At the end of the day Mustachianism is supposed to be about maximizing happiness, not being frugal to the point of being cheap or living an unfulfilling life (and I'm not talking about vehicles here) - not just doing what all the other Mustachians seem to be doing. I know there are plenty of Mustachians who apply Pete's principles to aspects of their life and still have time for luxury purchases in areas that are important to them personally. Those are the people I really want to hear from...was it worth it? Did you regret it? Were you able to make it a once in a lifetime kind of thing, or did lifestyle creep force you to do things you didn't want to do or extend your retirement date past when you really wanted? Do you regret the couple thousand dollars in dividend income you're not getting more than you'd regret not doing that thing? I guess at the end of the day, my question boils down to these kinds of things.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2019, 01:35:59 PM by Raymond Reddington »

Laura33

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Re: Car Conundrum - Facepunch may be required
« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2019, 02:12:20 PM »
People who didn't, and watched something they really wanted get redesigned such that they didn't want the newer version that was available when they were finally ready to take the plunge. There is an opportunity cost to everything.

This is a red herring -- if you like the old design, you can always find one used, for a better price.  For almost every material item, the real opportunity cost is the fun you missed during the X number of years you lived without the fun toy.

So much of what I do in the rest of my life, especially at work, requires me to place my better days in the future. I've worked years of odd hours traveling all over NYC, chasing promotions, vacations cancelled at the last minute, missed family events, last minute scheduling changes, long hours, changing days off...and for what?

This is your problem -- and it is not one a new vehicle can fix.  Sure, it would feel good right away, like a reward.  But if you try to fix a "life dissatisfaction" problem with a material item, I guarantee that no more than two years from now, you will be on here saying "and for what?  A damn truck?"

That doesn't mean you shouldn't get the truck, whether that's now, a year from now, 10 years from now, or whatever.  What it means is that instead of focusing on buying a toy to make yourself feel better, take a long, hard look at the part of your life that is making you so unhappy.  I, too, would be miserable in a job that required everything you laid out there.  The difference is that I'd be yelling "this is such bullshit!" and spending my free time figuring out how to put myself in a position not to have to do that ever again -- other jobs, other careers, no job and selling the house, moving to a different part of the country, etc. etc. etc.  There are an infinite number of opportunities out there that do not require you to sacrifice your physical health, mental wellbeing, relationships, and personal life to earn a living.  They just come with their own downsides, like less pay, less advancement, moving, etc.  Open your mind to all of the options you have in front of you.  Maybe you'll find a better one, maybe you won't -- but for me, knowing that I have chosen the best combination of pros and cons for my own goals makes me feel better all by itself, even when I can't change the underlying problem.

At the end of the day Mustachianism is supposed to be about maximizing happiness 

ITA.  The fundamental problem, though, is that people generally suck at accurately identifying what makes them happy.*  So it's always good to take what you think you want with a grain of salt and ask yourself whether you will actually be happier on a day to day basis, or whether you are just bullshitting yourself to justify getting the BrightShiny.

I know there are plenty of Mustachians who apply Pete's principles to aspects of their life and still have time for luxury purchases in areas that are important to them personally. Those are the people I really want to hear from...was it worth it? Did you regret it?

100% worth it, 0% regret. 

But that means nothing out of context.  The real story is that that "yes" came only after 25 years of saying no.  And I am prouder and happier with my purchase because I waited.  Because my #1 priority was always my family's security and wellbeing.  And I don't just mean serious things, like retirement and college -- I mean being able to throw money at totally frivolous things like taking our kids on vacations to interesting places, just because we wanted to go and see it all together as a family.  Waiting until we had all of those other things covered is a critical part of why I enjoy my StupidCar so much now:  because I know I lived up to my values and put first things first.

Obviously, you need to figure out for yourself where that balance lies.  But that's why I suggested setting yourself up to get it when you graduate and no longer to have school to pay for:  because I bet you will enjoy your toy more fully when you don't have that niggling worry about making your finances tighter for a toy that only you enjoy.


*For example, I've known people who believe that a new vehicle will make them happy, when the real problem is a deep frustration with their job.  ;-) 

RWD

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Re: Car Conundrum - Facepunch may be required
« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2019, 02:51:26 PM »
I reacted the way I did because I really don't care what a holier than thou person who intends to retire on 15K/year who thinks "Dude an F-150? You should have traded your Escape in for a Prius or a Razor scooter!" thinks.
We spent $50k on a Porsche last year... You ignored all of my posts. I still think buying a new F-150 is stupid when it is so easy to find good used ones at a significant discount.

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Re: Car Conundrum - Facepunch may be required
« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2019, 05:48:31 PM »
People who didn't, and watched something they really wanted get redesigned such that they didn't want the newer version that was available when they were finally ready to take the plunge. There is an opportunity cost to everything.

This is a red herring -- if you like the old design, you can always find one used, for a better price.  For almost every material item, the real opportunity cost is the fun you missed during the X number of years you lived without the fun toy.

So much of what I do in the rest of my life, especially at work, requires me to place my better days in the future. I've worked years of odd hours traveling all over NYC, chasing promotions, vacations cancelled at the last minute, missed family events, last minute scheduling changes, long hours, changing days off...and for what?

This is your problem -- and it is not one a new vehicle can fix.  Sure, it would feel good right away, like a reward.  But if you try to fix a "life dissatisfaction" problem with a material item, I guarantee that no more than two years from now, you will be on here saying "and for what?  A damn truck?"

That doesn't mean you shouldn't get the truck, whether that's now, a year from now, 10 years from now, or whatever.  What it means is that instead of focusing on buying a toy to make yourself feel better, take a long, hard look at the part of your life that is making you so unhappy.  I, too, would be miserable in a job that required everything you laid out there.  The difference is that I'd be yelling "this is such bullshit!" and spending my free time figuring out how to put myself in a position not to have to do that ever again -- other jobs, other careers, no job and selling the house, moving to a different part of the country, etc. etc. etc.  There are an infinite number of opportunities out there that do not require you to sacrifice your physical health, mental wellbeing, relationships, and personal life to earn a living.  They just come with their own downsides, like less pay, less advancement, moving, etc.  Open your mind to all of the options you have in front of you.  Maybe you'll find a better one, maybe you won't -- but for me, knowing that I have chosen the best combination of pros and cons for my own goals makes me feel better all by itself, even when I can't change the underlying problem.

At the end of the day Mustachianism is supposed to be about maximizing happiness 

ITA.  The fundamental problem, though, is that people generally suck at accurately identifying what makes them happy.*  So it's always good to take what you think you want with a grain of salt and ask yourself whether you will actually be happier on a day to day basis, or whether you are just bullshitting yourself to justify getting the BrightShiny.

I know there are plenty of Mustachians who apply Pete's principles to aspects of their life and still have time for luxury purchases in areas that are important to them personally. Those are the people I really want to hear from...was it worth it? Did you regret it?

100% worth it, 0% regret. 

But that means nothing out of context.  The real story is that that "yes" came only after 25 years of saying no.  And I am prouder and happier with my purchase because I waited.  Because my #1 priority was always my family's security and wellbeing.  And I don't just mean serious things, like retirement and college -- I mean being able to throw money at totally frivolous things like taking our kids on vacations to interesting places, just because we wanted to go and see it all together as a family.  Waiting until we had all of those other things covered is a critical part of why I enjoy my StupidCar so much now:  because I know I lived up to my values and put first things first.

Obviously, you need to figure out for yourself where that balance lies.  But that's why I suggested setting yourself up to get it when you graduate and no longer to have school to pay for:  because I bet you will enjoy your toy more fully when you don't have that niggling worry about making your finances tighter for a toy that only you enjoy.


*For example, I've known people who believe that a new vehicle will make them happy, when the real problem is a deep frustration with their job.  ;-)

I am content with my job, and don't really see a way I could do better - most of the sacrifices I've made in those categories were in the past (hence the promotions). Now I'm sacrificing somewhat for school, but overall I'd say the thing that gives me the least "joy" if you will is where I live - NYC - the dilemma of that being that the woman I love, the job I've grown into, and the opportunities that I have will be worth it are all here. The politics here is a cesspool, and it's as if politicians enjoy dragging the successful down to throw good money after bad and then raise taxes because of it. It's disheartening, and it's worse when you do the Mustachian thing and take public transit, and have to deal with subhuman filth defecating all over the place and harrassing for money while the cops just shrug and say "ACLU," making you regret the choice to save, or worse just put you in an overall foul mood. Far from spending frivolously, I've tried to focus on things that can either be self-improvement or generate happiness. I enjoy driving, just not in Manhattan - and fortunately I live on the edge of an outer borough of NYC which makes going to the suburbs and doing all sorts of interesting things in the tri-state area possible. It's just tough, I'm still on the fence about it - I've been living frugally since I was a child - sometimes even as a child to the point of being cheap - which is why I was so surprised when I mentioned the truck to my frugal mother and she didn't immediately try to talk me out of it, which turned into a whole discussion about she wished she'd done more and made different decisions.

I want to continue to save...I just find myself having this urge to just have one "thing" that's very nice. I have a great wife already, but she's not a thing, we're both busy, and sometimes when we don't get to see each other due to busy schedules, those are the hardest times for me. The house is a work in progress. I'm working my way up in my career to hopefully get more regular hours - but the pay is good and the benefits are great while I make that climb. I have intellectual stimulation from school. But I do feel like I "work" all the time, and I just feel at this point that this BrightShiny as you call it would just almost be a reminder to me to stay the course. A dividend that I don't reinvest, for a change, so I can look forward to the day I don't have to. As for why a '19, and not an earlier model, safety features. They made structural improvements to the truck since this generation debuted, with the '18 and '19 being the best, but the '18 has had a few serious recalls that don't apply to the '19s. Plus trucks don't really depreciate the same as other vehicles so the difference in price between an '18 and a '19 is not material with me compared to the benefits. Buying something older that already has 50K miles on it just doesn't really appeal to me at this time in the whole "I earned it" reinvorcement vein - just hard to get excited about that. If that's truly the alternative, I'd rather keep what I have, as half-assing an unMustachian purchase wouldn't give me the daily reminder I'm looking for of why I go through the struggle I go through on the days that I don't get to see my wife.

I don't know. Still very much on the fence, but I do appreciate your perspective on this.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2019, 05:54:24 PM by Raymond Reddington »

InterfaceLeader

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Re: Car Conundrum - Facepunch may be required
« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2019, 05:08:26 AM »
I just re-read your original post and noticed this:
and who knows, someday maybe mom/dad but we are still figuring that out.

I would, honestly, not commit to any major ongoing payments until after you have that figured out. People's values/priorities change when they have children. Costs go up. Earnings go down. People move. College funds and daycare becomes a thing.


BDWW

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Re: Car Conundrum - Facepunch may be required
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2019, 03:33:54 PM »
I reacted the way I did because I really don't care what a holier than thou person who intends to retire on 15K/year who thinks "Dude an F-150? You should have traded your Escape in for a Prius or a Razor scooter!" thinks.
We spent $50k on a Porsche last year... You ignored all of my posts. I still think buying a new F-150 is stupid when it is so easy to find good used ones at a significant discount.

I'd actually hold that the best option is to take advantage of what @JLee mentioned. Wait until the refreshes have been on the lot for ~6 months, and then buy one of the holdover older models. Around here there'll be so much on the hood, that it will be cheaper than an equivalent used model.

BicycleB

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Re: Car Conundrum - Facepunch may be required
« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2019, 05:35:35 AM »
Hi, @Raymond Reddington. Best wishes in finding solace on the days when you don't see your wife. That sounds like the root of the problem.

I don't think a truck will fix it, but I can't say for sure. I did buy a desired and desirable vehicle that I lived to regret. I still have it. I don't think it would satisfy me as a wife substitute, even if I had a wife on other days. I have wished I had that money much more often than I have been glad I had the car.

I do have personal experience with substitution/comfort behavior. When I am lazy and avoid the long list of Things I Could Do That Would Be Really Wise But I Don't Feel Like It, I eat cookies or ice cream. This feels great at the time, but doesn't really fill the hole that burns in my chest or my gut from what I'm missing. If I had a perfect solution for you, I'd offer it.

I don't want you to buy the truck because I think it'll waste your money without solving the problem, but hope that if you buy it, it works for you.

Upthread, you mentioned that buying the truck doesn't feel right either. Why is that?

acepedro45

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Re: Car Conundrum - Facepunch may be required
« Reply #37 on: April 30, 2019, 08:48:29 AM »
Quote
At the end of the day Mustachianism is supposed to be about maximizing happiness, not being frugal to the point of being cheap or living an unfulfilling life (and I'm not talking about vehicles here)...

You're right about this! And it seems very possible to me that someone who intends to use a truck as a truck and really values a truck could get a lot of joy out of owning a used F-150.

But in reading your posts, I sense that you are looking for the gross indulgence of BUYING as the experience and validation you are seeking, not just a truck. You seem fixated on the joy of watching the odometer turn from 0 to .1 and inhaling that new car smell and thinking "I earned this baby." That experience is as anti-mustachian as it gets. As many other posters have pointed out, that feeling will pass quickly before you've made more than 4-5 monthly payments on the thing.

But I sympathize. We all lust after material possessions. Companies have a lot invested in making sure we feel that way.

Quote
Buying something older that already has 50K miles on it just doesn't really appeal to me at this time in the whole "I earned it" reinvorcement vein - just hard to get excited about that. If that's truly the alternative, I'd rather keep what I have, as half-assing an unMustachian purchase wouldn't give me the daily reminder I'm looking for of why I go through the struggle I go through on the days that I don't get to see my wife.

I'm paraphrasing and maybe putting words in your mouth...but the expenditure itself, its very wantonness, is something that's very appealing to you. And that is a sure sign that financial folly is about to happen. The "daily reminder" will fade...the payments won't.


« Last Edit: April 30, 2019, 08:53:58 AM by acepedro45 »

humbleMouse

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Re: Car Conundrum - Facepunch may be required
« Reply #38 on: May 01, 2019, 10:44:15 PM »
Holy crap dude, buy a slightly used truck.  This post is ridiculous.  While you're at it, buy a used Tundra and not an F150 for christ's sake.  Smfh, facepunches for you.  Buying a new truck, and a ford of all trucks, is a ridiculously stupid decision. 

Raymond Reddington

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Re: Car Conundrum - Facepunch may be required
« Reply #39 on: May 05, 2019, 04:34:50 PM »
Well, I went ahead and got the truck. Was able to get the price talked down significantly, including the modifications I wanted.

Yes, I will have a car payment for 6 years, but I plan to drive this thing for a very long time.

To the guy who posted about getting a Tundra, hell no! Tundras aren't that reliable, have the worst fuel efficiency among trucks, and are very expensive for what you can get. I've been driving Fords pretty much ever since I was old enough to choose my own cars, and they've always done right by me. FTR, I've also driven or had long term friendships with people who drove Subarus, a Plymouth, Chevys, a Jeep, Hondas, a Nissan, a Dodge, and of course a Toyota (I personally only owned Fords, a Chevy, and the Plymouth). I know Toyota cars generally are considerably reliable (though DW has had to deal with several major issues with hers, thankfully Toyota stood behind it each time, even if they didn't reimburse her for the gallons of oil she had to buy while her engine was eating it), but their trucks are a different story, and the Honda Ridgeline is an abomination among trucks. I just drove 950 miles to visit family and back this weekend (I couldn't get off work to catch the wife's flights and had something to do today, so I did the drive solo), and I averaged about 22.5 miles per gallon largely doing the 70mph speed limit in hilly terrain. In a Tundra I'd be lucky to get 18. Yeah, you don't buy a truck for MPG but it adds up.

I consider myself someone who enjoys driving, and what I've always valued most about Pete's message is the part about spending on what makes you happy, and about investing wisely and staying within a budget, and this checks the boxes. Am I maximizing savings? No. But I feel that, having thought about this extensively and gotten lots of feedback, that I am maximizing happiness by balancing something I've always wanted to own with continuing to be frugal in other areas of my life to make both it and aggressive retirement savings possible. I also feel that I got to a point where I just needed something else that would make me happy or proud just to see/have - it's hard to explain, but like I said when I don't see my wife. Sometimes you just need a little something for right now, but not something that you eat or experience and it's gone, and not something so little you forget about it...something that's a part of your daily life that makes you happy just to have in it. That's what it kept coming down to for me as I agonized over this. And I know I'm going to use it for its intended purposes, whether for DIY trips to pick up supplies, or just stuffing people into it so we can all do fun stuff together. Who knows? Maybe I'll even try offroading someday, since I have Jeep friends who are into it, though I won't be going near water. Already looking forward to going to a drive in and watching the movie from the bed.

To answer those who said buy used, why am I buying new?
-Earlier Ecoboost engines weren't as reliable
-I basically got to customize the vehicle as I wanted with the add-ons that are important to me and will keep the vehicle in good shape for a long time. Not trying to put a bedliner and tonneau cover in after someone else has let rust set in, or adding wheel well liners after tens of thousands of miles have already gone on it.
-Android Auto.
-By buying new, I can do my part to drive the vehicle responsibly, take care of it, and ensure that it lasts a long time vs. a situation where damage may have already been done. Been there done that - not with the Escape, but with other vehicles I've driven in life.

So, these updates will be part of my monthly updates, but I can say that I am happy with the truck so far. For example, when visiting family, we had 6 people to take to dinner. I was only there for a short time (just one night and one day), and I wanted to catch up with everyone. Fortunately, because I had the truck, we didn't have to take 2 vehicles, so all 6 of us all got to spend time together in the car, while DW's folks showed us around their neighborhood and gave us an impromptu driving "tour."

The first payment hasn't hit yet, so there's that, but I've run the numbers and my wealth will still be increasing significantly each month - even with school and truck payments. Plus, when school is done, I can send more money to the car note to pay it off earlier (if I choose, which I may, or I can continue to invest) - I ran the numbers on the financing and chose the best possible terms for myself without any extra service plans/extended warranties/etc.

I realize this is not the choice everyone would have made - and many wouldn't - and the facepunches definitely made me think about it a lot, which is what I wanted, but in the end, I think I did the right thing, and we've all got to maximize our happiness in our own way. And thank you for the facepunches, because in absorbing them, I have a better understanding for why I wanted it, that the reasons were valid to me, and that it wasn't something I would later get moody about or grow to hate or regret...because now I can say that definitely won't be the case.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2019, 04:48:16 PM by Raymond Reddington »


FIREby35

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Re: Car Conundrum - Facepunch may be required
« Reply #41 on: May 07, 2019, 06:46:38 AM »
Hey good luck on your car choice. I'm not coming to rain on your parade. BUT, I have done DIY projects with a Prius! Don't sell them short, the hatchback has more space than you can imagine. I've loaded it up so it was riding low, but I drove it home slow and got it done. Lol.

Good luck with your truck. If you want my advice, buy an an old used truck. Nowadays, I own a 2005 Ford Explorer for my projects and family trips (it seats 7).

GreenEggs

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Re: Car Conundrum - Facepunch may be required
« Reply #42 on: May 07, 2019, 09:27:21 PM »

Van's are the hip trendy vehicle these days.  ;)












SaucyAussie

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Re: Car Conundrum - Facepunch may be required
« Reply #43 on: May 09, 2019, 06:23:45 AM »
Somewhere, Don Draper is smiling.

Raymond Reddington

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Re: Car Conundrum - Facepunch may be required
« Reply #44 on: May 12, 2019, 01:26:28 AM »
Hey good luck on your car choice. I'm not coming to rain on your parade. BUT, I have done DIY projects with a Prius! Don't sell them short, the hatchback has more space than you can imagine. I've loaded it up so it was riding low, but I drove it home slow and got it done. Lol.

Good luck with your truck. If you want my advice, buy an an old used truck. Nowadays, I own a 2005 Ford Explorer for my projects and family trips (it seats 7).

There wasn't a chance in hell I was going with a Prius. The payload rating is completely inadequate, and it's dangerous and really bad for vehicles long-term to overload them even though people do it all the time. Plus I hate small, cramped cars...really just anything tiny. I grew up in a small apartment and always said that I would value space over convenience. I know, cue the chorus of people talking about how "roomy" the Prius is. Reality is I've never liked the height or seating position of cars...I need frequent stops to get out and move around whenever I'm in my wife's car. That's why I've pretty much always owned vans, SUVs, or, now, a truck. But having taken the first long drive with the truck, I really enjoyed being comfortable and having plenty of room to give my knees and ankles a break. 8 hours and I really wasn't uncomfortable, compared with about 4-5 in the Escape, which I still consider a great vehicle, compared with about 2 in my wife's car.

Also came in handy this weekend when I had to haul the new air conditioner and a bunch of heavy tiles we were returning for refund (extras) from the completed first half of the basement project at the same time.

In other good news, the promotion went through. There are some benefit givebacks - those were expected - but not actually as bad as I thought, all things considered. I appreciate all the advice in the thread since it made me look at everything, and I know I made my choice for reasons that are sound to me, so I'm happy with the choice. Still on track for FatFIRE at 55.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2019, 01:28:04 AM by Raymond Reddington »