Car Compromise

[A_P_]

Well, I've been lurking around here for awhile, but it's time to finally register and get some advice on my car situation.

A little background: In 2010, I upgraded from my first car (a 1998 Ford Contour, got me back and forth from college for four years, but was getting to the point where it was going to cost more to fix needed issues than the car was worth). I bit the bullet, went car shopping, and found a great deal on a 2007 Hyundai Tucson. It was a good car but definitely still not a mustachian purchase. I was paying $206/mo on a 60 month term. Not a terrible monthly payment, but I could have found a fine car for less money... I was swayed by the lower miles, and yes, the sunroof. At the time, I was fresh out of college and making ~$950/mo working part time. Not awful overall, but definitely not mustachian.

But it gets worse... in 2012, I totaled the Tucson. Got a great payout from insurance (more than I actually bought the car for). The smart thing to do would have been to buy a car for the same or less and stay on track with my car payments. But no... I splurged on a low-mileage 2010 Toyota Venza. I really liked the car, and still do, but it was way more than I needed at the time and it still is now.

I justified it at the time with the fact that I play drum set occasionally and needed the space to haul my equipment to rehearsals/gigs. But I could have gotten by with a smaller vehicle for sure... even the Contour could fit everything with some creative maneuvering. I also figured the extra space would be good for when my wife and I eventually have kids... but that's still years off. I was also desperate to have a vehicle again and probably didn't think the purchase through as well as I normally would. Long story short, my monthly payment is now $351, and I started a new 60-month term.

Recently, I was re-evaluating our car situation. My wife started working at Ford, and just recently purchased a 2013 Ford Focus so that she could park in the employee parking lot. That's $329/mo for 48 months, far from mustachian but better than her 72 month (I know...) term for a similar monthly payment on her previous car, a Subaru Impreza (bought new). We did at least steer clear of a Ford Focus that would have been quite a bit more per month.

My wife mentioned that if we can fit everything into the Focus, we should take that car on our upcoming vacation to save money on gas. That got the wheels turning in my head. I realized:

• I travel frequently for work, and I sometimes work from home when I am not on travel. So I am not putting many miles on my car these days. I have put less than 5000 miles on the car since the end of November last year, and most of those were on a trip from Missouri to Wisconsin for Thanksgiving.
• I'm not playing the drums as much as I used to, so the space really isn't needed.
• It's not really an efficient or practical car for a 20-minute each way commute when I am actually in town, especially not for $351/mo.
• If we no longer even need it for long road trips, I'm starting to find it hard to justify having it.

So, in my continued pursuit of increased Mustachianism that I have begun to cultivate in the few months since discovering MMM, I started looking at cheaper, more efficient vehicles. However, my wife has some concerns. In general, we are never going to see 100% eye-to-eye on cars. Even in my pre-Mustache days, I for the most part thought of cars primarily as a method to get from point A to point B. Yes, I like cool cars as much as the next guy, but I never really got sucked in to the whole luxury car mindset, and I would never buy a brand new car. She, on the other hand, thinks of cars as freedom and likes some of the bells and whistles. Working for Ford, she's become even more tuned in to said bells and whistles.

We discussed my idea to look at swapping out the Venza, and while she agrees with the principle of it, she wants to keep a car with similar space (her reasoning: so that we have cargo space if we need it, and legroom for the - very rare - occasion we have more than just the two of us in the car). She also wants the car to have AWD, which the Venza does. We do get some snow here, but I grew up in Wisconsin and managed to make it through winters in high school with the Ford Contour. Finally, she'd also like for it to be a Ford, so that she has the option to drive either car to work. That's negotiable though.

The AWD requirement is obviously the big issue that limits my options, especially in the price range I was looking at. The Venza is worth about $16K, and there's roughly $14K (3.5 years) left on the loan. So I could definitely save a decent chunk of change. We'd lower our monthly payments and likely save on insurance and vehicle property tax as well. Gas is debatable if we're ruling out smaller vehicles.

With all this in mind, what are your thoughts? Should I not even bother, and just keep the Venza? Or are there any recommendations for what I could look for? I don't think I'm going to sway my wife on the AWD or space requirements, though if anyone could help me out on the AWD especially, that would be great. :) That being said, if anyone still thinks there are good options out there that'll save us a little more money each month, I'm more than willing to explore.

Thanks in advance!

TL;DR: I have a car that's more than I need. I'd like to replace it with something more Mustachian, but my wife insists on AWD and similar size. What are my options?

[fishingman88]

The car situation is always one of the hardest things to decide.  I feel like we all like to think we need something for those RARE occasions where we would need the car to haul stuff around or would need AWD.  However, I'll give you a personal experience that made me re-think my car decision.

I absolutely love fishing and 2-3 times a year I head to the beach where you need 4WD to drive along the beach.  Furthermore, we get some snow days occasionally.  In my anti-Mustachian days where I had a significant other who encouraged me to splurge, I made a grave financial mistake of purchasing a 4WD truck as  SECOND VEHICLE (absolute madness looking back).  I drove the truck 4 times in the snow and 2 times at the beach.  Not only did I pay an extra $40/month for insurance, $250/year for taxes, and an extra $200/month car payment....I sold the truck at a loss after a year.

Here's what I do nowadays for my beach trip.  I rent a truck from a local car rental place and pay $50/day   My beach trip lasts 2-3 days usually, so it ends up coming to $150 for 3 days.  That's $300 for 2 beach a year.

Let's look at the comparison.....in one year I spent $3130 on a truck and could have just rented one for $300.

In your situation if you HAVE to purchase another vehicle...I would look around for a AWD or 4WD Honda CRV.  Great space, decent gas mileage, and you could purchase one for cheap.  I helped my parents purchase a 2002 Honda CRV with 100K miles for under $8K.  It is reliable and allows them to haul stuff around with no issues. 

This will help you reduce your liabilities while giving you a vehicle that does what you want while pleasing the wife.

[CarDude]

If it has to be an AWD Ford SUV, I'd suggest a 2007+ Ford Edge. You can start getting them for around 10k. The biggest issue with them is terrible mileage (16/22).

If you don't have to have the Ford part but do have to have the AWD SUV parts, then definitely a CR-V, as fishingman88 suggested. However, I'd make it at least an '06 due to a number of safety features that aren't in the older models (namely, ESC and side head/torso airbags). You can find these starting at 8k if you aren't picky about the number of miles on the clock, and they are rated better (~20/25).

[GRSConstruction]

What about another Subaru? The Outback and Forester both have lots of cargo room, are AWD, have great safety ratings, higher than average re-sale in most areas, and as long as you stay away from the turbo models are pretty fuel efficient. Just another couple options to compare with the CRV (which is obviously a great option too).

[hexdexorex]

She has the ford...you get what you want. I understand a relationship is about compromise but when it comes to cars the person owning/driving the car really gets final decision on what they drive.

I second the subaru...although I think AWD can be a little overrated....and the mpg hit probably isnt worth it.

[blackomen]

I just rent a truck from home depot when I need to haul stuff occasionally.

Sent from my HTCEVOV4G using Tapatalk

[A_P_]

She has the ford...you get what you want. I understand a relationship is about compromise but when it comes to cars the person owning/driving the car really gets final decision on what they drive.

In theory, yes. But if that was the case, on the flip side of the coin, she would be driving a much nicer and more expensive car if we didn't compromise on her's.

[frugaliknowit]

I would explain the renting (as needed) concept to your wife in trying to get her off the AWD mindset.  Also, you need to get out of the payment mindset (payment not bad and the like...).  Get into a cycle of paying cash for cars.

[RetiredAt63]

I am an older female driver in snow country, and I went from a Subaru Legacy AWD to my Mazda 3 front wheel drive.  Except in extreme conditions it is not an issue.  For cold weather driving (below 7C/45F) put on winter tires - the rubber is softer so the tires have good traction in the cold.  See http://www.wheels.ca/news/its-official-winter-tires-really-do-cut-collisions/  I had one drive of 120 km this winter in a whiteout at night, in the Mazda3 with snow tires.  It was a slow drive, windy, but I was never in danger of going off the road.

For any car, the hatchback/station wagon version will hold more than the sedan, so that will always give you more cargo area.

Renting is always an option, especially when you add up all the costs associated with a particular vehicle that is really more than you need.

[A_P_]

I would explain the renting (as needed) concept to your wife in trying to get her off the AWD mindset.  Also, you need to get out of the payment mindset (payment not bad and the like...).  Get into a cycle of paying cash for cars.

I absolutely agree with you. I'm on board with the renting as needed concept for when we need cargo space or are going somewhere where we'd need the AWD. I think she can be swayed on that side of it, too. Where we disagree is in terms of winter driving. Even though winters here aren't *that* bad, she's worried about being able to get to work... still working carefully on trying to sway her on this one, because the AWD requirement is definitely the biggest limiter of our options.

As for getting out of the payment mindset, that lightbulb has definitely clicked on for me ever since getting hooked on MMM. Once we pay off our current car loans (or my new loan if we do make a swap, though I don't plan to go longer than 36 months so I'd still have it paid off sooner than my current loan), I plan to buy any cars we purchase in the future with cash.

[eil]

Finally, she'd also like for it to be a Ford, so that she has the option to drive either car to work.

Terribly confused on this point, which came up twice in your post. In order to work for Ford, you have to drive a Ford vehicle? Wat?

I used to drive by a GM plant employee parking lot every day and clearly remember seeing lots of other makes including imports, even here in Michigan with its unusually high rate of domestic favoritism.

[BlueMR2]

I interviewed for a GM job a few years back and was informed that were I to get the job that I would be required to buy a GM car.  Didn't get the job, so I can't say if that's official policy or not.

[m8547]

Where do you live? You said you get "some" snow? How much? Do you have snow tires for both cars? If not you don't need AWD, you just need snow tires. Even if it doesn't snow much they are helpful in cold weather as someone above mentioned.  If you live where it really only snows a few times a year, you can probably get by with good all season tires.

We get an average of 35 snowy days a year, or about 90 inches, and I was fine for part of this winter with nearly bald (around minimum tread depth) front tires and good all seasons in the rear (I don't recommend it). I replaced the front tires, and it made a huge difference. Snow tires would be even better, but I wasn't sure if I was going to keep the car long-term. With the new tires (Michelin Primacy MXV4 on all four) I drove on the lightly plowed roads around town (the city is too cheap to really clear them) and drove through a few unexpected blizzards on ski trips. I got slightly stuck once with the old tires (had to try a few times to get over a slippery spot at an intersection on a hill), but never had a problem with the new ones.

AWD won't help you stop or steer, but snow tires will.

If it gets really bad get some chains. On one ski trip this year there was a blizzard on the way home (I was riding in someone else's car). Conditions were bad, snow was falling several inches per hour, but the road was right around freezing so it became really slick. The situation on the interstate was chaos, with cars and trucks (including big 18 wheelers) sliding everywhere, blocking the road, and parking on the shoulder because they couldn't continue. Even Subarus and SUVs were getting stuck because they were presumably not equipped with snow tires and/or they didn't know how to drive in snow.  But there was one car that confidently passed everyone... a little Toyota Yaris hatchback (FWD) with chains on the front wheels! We also saw one or two newer Honda Civics (FWD) cautiously proceeding up the mountain (no chains, but probably snow tires). It should have taken an hour and a half to get home but it took 5 hours because of the inadequately equipped cars blocking the road.

Someone said in another thread, and I agree, you don't need AWD on any paved roads. It can help in some situations, but you don't need it.

[A_P_]

Just to clarify, it isn't a requirement to own a Ford, but if you don't, you have to park in a separate lot about a mile away. Cars int hat lot are also occasionally broken into as security is more lax. My wife dealt with it for awhile, but when we had a few weeks of well below zero temps, we both agreed it was time to buy a Ford. But she's okay with the second car not being a Ford, it would just be a preference if we are able to find one.

[A_P_]

Where do you live? You said you get "some" snow? How much? Do you have snow tires for both cars? If not you don't need AWD, you just need snow tires. Even if it doesn't snow much they are helpful in cold weather as someone above mentioned.  If you live where it really only snows a few times a year, you can probably get by with good all season tires.

We get an average of 35 snowy days a year, or about 90 inches, and I was fine for part of this winter with nearly bald (around minimum tread depth) front tires and good all seasons in the rear (I don't recommend it). I replaced the front tires, and it made a huge difference. Snow tires would be even better, but I wasn't sure if I was going to keep the car long-term. With the new tires (Michelin Primacy MXV4 on all four) I drove on the lightly plowed roads around town (the city is too cheap to really clear them) and drove through a few unexpected blizzards on ski trips. I got slightly stuck once with the old tires (had to try a few times to get over a slippery spot at an intersection on a hill), but never had a problem with the new ones.

AWD won't help you stop or steer, but snow tires will.

If it gets really bad get some chains. On one ski trip this year there was a blizzard on the way home (I was riding in someone else's car). Conditions were bad, snow was falling several inches per hour, but the road was right around freezing so it became really slick. The situation on the interstate was chaos, with cars and trucks (including big 18 wheelers) sliding everywhere, blocking the road, and parking on the shoulder because they couldn't continue. Even Subarus and SUVs were getting stuck because they were presumably not equipped with snow tires and/or they didn't know how to drive in snow.  But there was one car that confidently passed everyone... a little Toyota Yaris hatchback (FWD) with chains on the front wheels! We also saw one or two newer Honda Civics (FWD) cautiously proceeding up the mountain (no chains, but probably snow tires). It should have taken an hour and a half to get home but it took 5 hours because of the inadequately equipped cars blocking the road.

Someone said in another thread, and I agree, you don't need AWD on any paved roads. It can help in some situations, but you don't need it.

We live in Kansas City. Average snowfall is about 20 inches per year, which pales in comparison to what I grew up with in Wisconsin. That being said, we have had a few more heavy snowfalls than normal in since I've moved here. In four winters living here, three have been above normal snow and one was virtually no snow. I fortunately have the luxury of bring able to work from home if there is heavy snow, but my wife does not.

We do not have snow tires, just all seasons.

[A_P_]

Thanks for the great advice everybody! I think, after thinking it over, I'm at the point where I don't want to make the perfect the enemy of the good, as the saying goes.

While I am going to try and see if I can sway the wife on getting snow tires and going with a 2WD, I think I'm willing to settle for an AWD. When I first started thinking about this, the goal I had in my head was downsizing, getting more fuel efficient, and getting cheaper payments and insurance. Going with a same-sized car with AWD isn't going to help with downsizing or fuel efficiency, but it can still reduce the cost of ownership significantly. And I guess something is better than nothing.

[A_P_]

Update: I got an offer in the mail today saying that a local dealer would give me up to $17,300 for my Venza, because they are in "high demand." Now, normally I disregard these because they're generally a marketing ploy to get people into a newer car with a new car payment and full loan term. In this case, though, it sparked some more conversations with my wife, and really opened a great opportunity to jump on trading in my car. Online estimates put my car at about $16,500 right now, so I'd be getting potentially almost another thousand. I'd have over $3000 to put towards a new car. I think my wife and I are mostly on the same page with regards to taking advantage of the opportunity. I've even gotten her to budge on the AWD, with snow tires as an option if necessary. Not sure how small/fuel efficient we'll be able to go (I found a Prius and a Matrix at the dealer that I was targeting, but those may get nixed), but there is a RAV4 for under $10K that would be a great option and would save us over $7000 total vs continuing to pay off the Venza.

[A_P_]

In case anyone is still following the thread, we traded in the Venza last night! Swapped it for an 05 Ford Escape Hybrid. Only had 51K miles on it, and sold for $10K. After the balance of the Venza loan was paid, we had about $2500 left over and so we are financing $7500. Lower monthly payment and the loan will be gone quicker. Plus it's cheaper to insure, should get much better gas mileage, and still has good cargo space. OH, and it's 4WD. I didn't even know they made 4WD Escape Hybrids. So all in all, a big win.

[DollarBill]

I know I'm late to the party but wanted to drop my $.02. An AWD will only help you move forward, it doesn't help stopping the car. AWD cars are not created equal. Most are front wheel drive with only one wheel that is powered and it will only turn the wheel with the least amount of traction. When the tire slips it will engage a clutch to send power to the rear wheels (but just one, the one that has the least amount of traction. If the two wheels with power are spinning the traction control will kick in and apply the brakes on those wheels so the opposite side turns...unless it's a Subaru. See videos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UL9LmT3fzbQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t09ExAUgtyE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_MXK2nzt2Y

Next time go for the 2wd hatch back, winter tires and set of chains. I've switched over from a life time of driving 4wd trucks and I'll tell you I'll never switch back.

[m8547]

I know I'm late to the party but wanted to drop my $.02. An AWD will only help you move forward, it doesn't help stopping the car. AWD cars are not created equal. Most are front wheel drive with only one wheel that is powered and it will only turn the wheel with the least amount of traction. When the tire slips it will engage a clutch to send power to the rear wheels (but just one, the one that has the least amount of traction. If the two wheels with power are spinning the traction control will kick in and apply the brakes on those wheels so the opposite side turns...unless it's a Subaru. See videos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UL9LmT3fzbQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t09ExAUgtyE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_MXK2nzt2Y

Next time go for the 2wd hatch back, winter tires and set of chains. I've switched over from a life time of driving 4wd trucks and I'll tell you I'll never switch back.

Not all Subaru systems are the same. Some use viscous coupling, and some of the newer ones are FWD biased multi-plate clutch systems like everyone else has. More FWD bias saves on gas.

The symmetricality of the Subaru system is often repeated, but that doesn't really mean anything, as far as I can tell. I guess the axle/shafts are the same length, but does that matter? They are not the same length in my car, and it's not a problem at all.

In the third video, how often do you drive up a 45 degree incline? Probably never, but if you do on a regular basis you should get a 4wd truck instead. A RWD car could probably make it up the ramp since so much weight is shifted onto the back tires.

For on-road driving, snow tires are critical if you live somewhere where it snows. I did an informal parking lot tire survey this winter, and about 25% of cars have snow tires. Very few trucks and SUVs have snow tires, probably because their bigger tires are more expensive and the vehicles are more expensive to begin with (so less money left for more tires). A good number of 2wd cars had snow tires. 2wd with snow tires is at least as capable as all wheel drive, until it comes time to stop. An AWD car with all season tires will slide just as much as a 2wd car with all season tires. AWD drivers get a false sense of confidence because they don't have as much trouble accelerating with their stock tires.

For off-road driving, ground clearance is key, unless you get into really difficult roads, and then that becomes an expensive sport in itself. Ground clearance is one of the reasons that Subarus are so capable off road, compared to other small SUVs. Most Subarus have 8-9 inches, whereas vehicles like the Honda CR-V have just over 6, or only slightly more than a Honda Civic for example. Mazda SUVs also have good ground clearance for small/unibody SUVs. The truck-based ones are obviously better, but then you get 15-20mpg.

I would bet that most people can't tell the difference between an AWD car and a 2WD car, except in a few limited situations (starting from a stop on snow, for example). Most of the AWD systems are relatively weak and only provide a slight push from the rear, and very few are good at moving power to wheels with traction (it's more complicated and expensive to make a system that does that well.)

Finally, it's unfortunate that it can be really hard to find technical information about AWD systems, like how they work and what the capabilities are. There are huge differences between the systems, but manufacturers publish almost no information that can be used to compare them.

[DollarBill]

I know I'm late to the party but wanted to drop my $.02. An AWD will only help you move forward, it doesn't help stopping the car. AWD cars are not created equal. Most are front wheel drive with only one wheel that is powered and it will only turn the wheel with the least amount of traction. When the tire slips it will engage a clutch to send power to the rear wheels (but just one, the one that has the least amount of traction. If the two wheels with power are spinning the traction control will kick in and apply the brakes on those wheels so the opposite side turns...unless it's a Subaru. See videos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UL9LmT3fzbQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t09ExAUgtyE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_MXK2nzt2Y

Next time go for the 2wd hatch back, winter tires and set of chains. I've switched over from a life time of driving 4wd trucks and I'll tell you I'll never switch back.

Not all Subaru systems are the same. Some use viscous coupling, and some of the newer ones are FWD biased multi-plate clutch systems like everyone else has. More FWD bias saves on gas.

Correct

The symmetricality of the Subaru system is often repeated, but that doesn't really mean anything, as far as I can tell. I guess the axle/shafts are the same length, but does that matter? They are not the same length in my car, and it's not a problem at all.

I don't know what car you have and I can't figure out the length issue. I think most have a type of posi-track/open/limited slip deferential/electric spool.

In the third video, how often do you drive up a 45 degree incline? Probably never, but if you do on a regular basis you should get a 4wd truck instead. A RWD car could probably make it up the ramp since so much weight is shifted onto the back tires.

I liked that video because it showed the tires that spin. It would work the same way on snow or ice. 4wd will work the same but it's more mechanical not electrical and you still only have two wheels powered unless you have a locker or spool diff. Most pickup trucks don't get good traction unless you put extra weight in the rear...but most think they are have an advantage in snow and ice. If you have more weight then it takes longer to stop.

For on-road driving, snow tires are critical if you live somewhere where it snows. I did an informal parking lot tire survey this winter, and about 25% of cars have snow tires. Very few trucks and SUVs have snow tires, probably because their bigger tires are more expensive and the vehicles are more expensive to begin with (so less money left for more tires). A good number of 2wd cars had snow tires. 2wd with snow tires is at least as capable as all wheel drive, until it comes time to stop. An AWD car with all season tires will slide just as much as a 2wd car with all season tires. AWD drivers get a false sense of confidence because they don't have as much trouble accelerating with their stock tires.

Agreed, most will buy an aggressive tread that doesn't help unless your in mud.

For off-road driving, ground clearance is key, unless you get into really difficult roads, and then that becomes an expensive sport in itself. Ground clearance is one of the reasons that Subarus are so capable off road, compared to other small SUVs. Most Subarus have 8-9 inches, whereas vehicles like the Honda CR-V have just over 6, or only slightly more than a Honda Civic for example. Mazda SUVs also have good ground clearance for small/unibody SUVs. The truck-based ones are obviously better, but then you get 15-20mpg.

Most of the unibody SUV's get better clearance because they don't have a diff. Independent suspension has better clearance and better control. Lowest point on solid axles are the shock mounts that are below the axle or the diff.

I would bet that most people can't tell the difference between an AWD car and a 2WD car, except in a few limited situations (starting from a stop on snow, for example). Most of the AWD systems are relatively weak and only provide a slight push from the rear, and very few are good at moving power to wheels with traction (it's more complicated and expensive to make a system that does that well.)

Agreed

Finally, it's unfortunate that it can be really hard to find technical information about AWD systems, like how they work and what the capabilities are. There are huge differences between the systems, but manufacturers publish almost no information that can be used to compare them.

Agreed

[DollarBill]

It might be even better to just say to you boss, damn I'm snowed in...can't make it to work...I'm snowed in with only 2wd :)