The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: jeromedawg on January 24, 2021, 10:39:12 PM
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Hey guys,
Wondering what car batteries y'all recommend - Interstate @ Costco? Everstart Maxx at Walmart? The Duralast Gold in our Mazda is starting to go bad (was purchased in Feb 2019 by my brother. We bought the car from him end of 2019). He doesn't know where he bought it but thinks possibly AutoZone? They have 3yr warranties on them IIRC but not sure if that'll matter if I can't find a receipt.
That said, I think I saw that Autozone will give a $10 merchandise/gift card back for dropping off an old battery to recycle but are there other places that do the same like Costco or Walmart? Assuming I can't locate the receipt and it is necessary (whether this was done at Big O or Autozone), I'll most likely get a new battery at Costco or Walmart. Just trying to figure out the best thing for the old battery especially if I can get some $$ for it. I thought I read that some junk yards will give you money for old batteries? That said, I've spent a few hours at a junk yard on a repair project I undertook on an previous car and not sure I'd want to go back LOL
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I'm not in US, so can't answer the "where to buy" question, but a reasonable car battery should last at least 5 years and probably 7 before declining and becoming unreliable. There must be something wrong if a 2019 battery needs replacing - is there no recourse to the manufacturer of the battery if you can't track back to the retailer? I replaced the battery in my 10-year-old car last year, but it was the original battery that had been installed at manufacture, so it had lasted nine years, with no issues - I was only replacing it on the basis that winter was coming up and I didn't want to risk having a nine-year old battery start to give problems on a cold morning.
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I'm not in US, so can't answer the "where to buy" question, but a reasonable car battery should last at least 5 years and probably 7 before declining and becoming unreliable. There must be something wrong if a 2019 battery needs replacing - is there no recourse to the manufacturer of the battery if you can't track back to the retailer? I replaced the battery in my 10-year-old car last year, but it was the original battery that had been installed at manufacture, so it had lasted nine years, with no issues - I was only replacing it on the basis that winter was coming up and I didn't want to risk having a nine-year old battery start to give problems on a cold morning.
We did experience a sudden temp drop in the last couple days where it was moderate and in the mid 50s-70s during the night/day and dropped probably by 10 degrees and has been raining on and off. And we've been driving the car out maybe once every 2-3 days - it's parked outside uncovered.
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I'm not much of a car guy, but for what its worth, I'd suggest going back to Autozone and have them check the charging system. It could be the alternator and not the battery--- they provide that service for free. I don't think there's anything inherently bad about their batteries, and even without a receipt, they might cover the prorated warranty.
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I’ve read that car batteries don’t last as long as they used to because people charge devices so much in the car now.
We buy batteries at AutoZone. Also windshield wipers, etc. They are very helpful there, and in our case, it’s right up the street.
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Everywhere here has that core charge, that you get back if you turn in the new one. We have had good luck with Costco batteries.
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I always go to the local NAPA store. They pull and dispose of you old battery and install a new one while you wait, no charge for the install effort.
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I'm not much of a car guy, but for what its worth, I'd suggest going back to Autozone and have them check the charging system. It could be the alternator and not the battery--- they provide that service for free. I don't think there's anything inherently bad about their batteries, and even without a receipt, they might cover the prorated warranty.
I don't think it's the alternator because I was able to jump start the car last night. I've read some horror stories about Autozone not being willing to replace batteries - one in particular the guy was having issues with his battery and had to jump it every time to start his car. He had it checked by 2-3 other sources including his mechanic, who all told him the battery was going bad or bad. When he brought it to Autozone (a few times between checking elsewhere) the tech checking his battery said it was good and nothing was wrong with it... it end up being a big fiasco that resulted in him never getting the replacement battery even after speaking with a manager. I wouldn't think it should be so hard but who knows...lol
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Definitely take it to Autozone and see if they'll honor the warranty. Their website says "Duralast Gold & Platinum vehicle batteries have a Nationwide Three-Year Free Replacement Warranty." It will probably be in their system under your brother's phone number, which he should've given them at the time of purchase, so you shouldn't need a receipt. Just have his number ready when you go in, and don't mention that it wasn't you that purchased the battery.
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Autozone warranty only applies to the person who bought the battery (at least that's what they told me when mine died within the warranty period).
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What is the evidence that the battery needs replacing? Slow cranking? No cranking? I agree with other posters that the battery itself is probably not the problem.
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What is the evidence that the battery needs replacing? Slow cranking? No cranking? I agree with other posters that the battery itself is probably not the problem.
My wife said she noticed it being "slow when starting" so perhaps that means slow cranking? If an alternator is dying, will jump starting still work? If so, then yea it could be the alternator.
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What is the evidence that the battery needs replacing? Slow cranking? No cranking? I agree with other posters that the battery itself is probably not the problem.
My wife said she noticed it being "slow when starting" so perhaps that means slow cranking? If an alternator is dying, will jump starting still work? If so, then yea it could be the alternator.
Yes, jump starting would still work if the alternator were dying. I would expect the car to die on the road within 2 or 3 hours of driving if the alternator is out. Could she also mean, it needs to crank longer before the engine fires as "slow when starting"? Easiest way to test an alternator is to put a multimeter on the poles of the battery while the car is running... if it reads 12.5V or lower, it's probably dead. Normally I would expect a battery to read 13-14v while running. I realize that not everyone has a multimeter, your local O'rielly/Autozone/Napa should.
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What is the evidence that the battery needs replacing? Slow cranking? No cranking? I agree with other posters that the battery itself is probably not the problem.
My wife said she noticed it being "slow when starting" so perhaps that means slow cranking? If an alternator is dying, will jump starting still work? If so, then yea it could be the alternator.
Yes, jump starting would still work if the alternator were dying. I would expect the car to die on the road within 2 or 3 hours of driving if the alternator is out. Could she also mean, it needs to crank longer before the engine fires as "slow when starting"? Easiest way to test an alternator is to put a multimeter on the poles of the battery while the car is running... if it reads 12.5V or lower, it's probably dead. Normally I would expect a battery to read 13-14v while running. I realize that not everyone has a multimeter, your local O'rielly/Autozone/Napa should.
Ah ok - I went to Youtube immediately after and saw the same suggestion so I'll give that a shot. I have one of the cheapo HF multimeters but not sure if I have the probes for it - will have to dig around.
But yea it could mean the cranking felt as if it were taking longer. FWIW: after jump starting last night, I let it idle and revved it a few times, shut the engine off, then started it up again and it started. I did this a couple times and after about 5-10 more minutes I started up the car and took it for a short drive down the street. It seemed ok. Guess I'll try doing that again in a bit.
Would temp drops and or wet weather contribute to or exacerbate any of this?
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Incoming useful wall of text on battery manufacturers, sources, and quality....
Wondering what car batteries y'all recommend - Interstate @ Costco? Everstart Maxx at Walmart? The Duralast Gold in our Mazda is starting to go bad (was purchased in Feb 2019 by my brother. We bought the car from him end of 2019). He doesn't know where he bought it but thinks possibly AutoZone? They have 3yr warranties on them IIRC but not sure if that'll matter if I can't find a receipt.
First, yes, Duralast is an AutoZone house brand. Second, regarding specifics on the warranty, even without the receipt, there should be a manufacture date sticker for month and year the battery was made, and technically the top sticker should have been modified with month and year info for when it was installed. On one hand, yes, it might be worth trying to get it swapped under warranty, but most all of these batteries are made by Exide (no matter where you buy them), and they're not great. If nothing else, you can probably collect on the warranty if the date of manufacture is under three years. This is why it's important to grab the newest made battery when possible off the shelf. Lead acid batteries that sit idle and unused do not age well.
The Walmart Everstart Maxx used to be a decent brand back when Walmart sourced the batteries from Johnson Controls (JCI). However, JCI's battery division got sold off in 2019 to Brookfield, and Walmart switched to Exide as the manufacturer. So, outside of general price for the warranty period and theoretically higher inventory turnover rates, there's little quality advantage to the Everstart Maxx batteries outside of most others, as most all the cheaper auto part chain batteries seem to be made by Exide these days (and there's really only like three dominant wet cell lead acid battery manufacturers by market share, Exide, Clarios (the merger of Brookfield and Johnson Controls' battery division), and East Penn/Deca. There are some smaller outfits, though, that still put out good stuff. Some people seem to like Exide, but I'm not one of them, as I've never had an Exide sourced battery last more than a couple years, and I suspect it's due to their notoriously heavily-polluting lead recycling methods if I were to hazard to guess why, but may be wrong. I've since learned to trust Johnson Control batteries over the past 15 years or so.
Which brings us back to Costco and Interstate. Interstate's batteries are usually pretty decent quality, and they used to source from JCI before the selloff/merger with Brookfield, Brookfield before the merger (IIRC), and now some from Exide. However, it's worth noting that the batteries are made in Mexico, which is where JCI used to manufacture their batteries, and where Clarios still holds manufacturing plants. So, it's probably pretty safe to assume that the Mexican made Interstates are coming out of JCI/Brookfield/Clarios. Given their high battery stock turnover rate, their three year no questions warranty, and a price half that of any other three year warranty battery price anywhere else?
When even the cost of a one year membership plus a battery costs less than any other three year battery on the market (including the Everstart Maxx), and you know it's made from a decent manufacturer and sold through a brand with a good reputation, it's a no-brainer. If you have access to a Costco, use it. Combine that with their great synthetic oil prices and decent tire selection... and it practically makes a Costco membership more than pay for itself just with basic vehicle maintenance if you're willing to get your hands dirty. Just be sure to pick up a felt ring set with dialectric grease pack down at your local O'vanced NapAuto Zone before you head out, since the Costco install will be DIY.
That said, I think I saw that Autozone will give a $10 merchandise/gift card back for dropping off an old battery to recycle but are there other places that do the same like Costco or Walmart? Assuming I can't locate the receipt and it is necessary (whether this was done at Big O or Autozone), I'll most likely get a new battery at Costco or Walmart. Just trying to figure out the best thing for the old battery especially if I can get some $$ for it. I thought I read that some junk yards will give you money for old batteries? That said, I've spent a few hours at a junk yard on a repair project I undertook on an previous car and not sure I'd want to go back LOL
As has already been touched on, there are core charges that will be refunded with battery exchange. It's a way of making sure the batteries get properly disposed of and recycled. Lead's surprisingly expensive.
There's other stuff being discussed, such as alternators and such now, and @v8rx7guy has that well under control, but to just add in, a dying battery can cause cold cranking issues as well, and this is the time of year that weak batteries usually finally give up and die, and given we're approaching the year mark with the pandemic and far less driving, the reduced frequency of the electro-chemical process that keeps lead acid batteries happy certainly hasn't helped matters. It's important to figure out which one's the main problem and get it diagnosed, though. Fortunately, that's pretty easy to do.
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Thanks all for the replies!
So I just went back downstairs to check on the car - completely dead. Even the keyless entry/alarm and ignition system - had to use the aux key to open the door. I figure jumping should work. But at this point it seems the battery has drained completely. Is this a sign of a bad battery or still possibly the alternator? I'll jump the car and hookup the voltmeter to see what the alternator is putting out now I guess.
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When she drives the car, does it get to go > 10 miles per trip usually ?
This would give it more time to recharge. If she has made a bunch of short 5 minute drives , with periods of sitting for several days, than cold weather-, it could just need to be driven for 20+ minutes to fully charge the battery. This assumes you do not have a battery charger you could put on it overnight. I say be driven, as opposed to just idling, as some cars don't charge the battery much if they have a low idle speed.
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Thanks all for the replies!
So I just went back downstairs to check on the car - completely dead. Even the keyless entry/alarm and ignition system - had to use the aux key to open the door. I figure jumping should work. But at this point it seems the battery has drained completely. Is this a sign of a bad battery or still possibly the alternator? I'll jump the car and hookup the voltmeter to see what the alternator is putting out now I guess.
Jump it, then put a multimeter on the battery. That will tell you a lot.
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It could be a bad battery, it could be a low battery that could be brought back. The alternator needs time to charge the system. If you get the car started, drive it around for 30 min plus. Than when you get home, check the voltage after you shut it off. Go back out a few hours later and check the voltage again. If it is substantially lower, [ ie 12.8 turns to 11.8 in a few hours ] you probably either have a battery that needs replacing - or- you have an electrical drain that is pulling the voltage down overnight.
It should be about 12.6 to 12.8 just sitting there [ in good condition]
12.0 to 12.4 should start the car.
11.5 and lower might not start the car.
10 volts will not start the car.
lower than 10 volts and you have a bad cell.
As mentioned before, if you run the leads from the multimeter to the positive and negative connections while it is running you shoud see about 14 volts.
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Thanks all for the replies!
So I just went back downstairs to check on the car - completely dead. Even the keyless entry/alarm and ignition system - had to use the aux key to open the door. I figure jumping should work. But at this point it seems the battery has drained completely. Is this a sign of a bad battery or still possibly the alternator? I'll jump the car and hookup the voltmeter to see what the alternator is putting out now I guess.
Jump it, then put a multimeter on the battery. That will tell you a lot.
It could be a bad battery, it could be a low battery that could be brought back. The alternator needs time to charge the system. If you get the car started, drive it around for 30 min plus. Than when you get home, check the voltage after you shut it off. Go back out a few hours later and check the voltage again. If it is substantially lower, [ ie 12.8 turns to 11.8 in a few hours ] you probably either have a battery that needs replacing - or- you have an electrical drain that is pulling the voltage down overnight.
It should be about 12.6 to 12.8 just sitting there [ in good condition]
12.0 to 12.4 should start the car.
11.5 and lower might not start the car.
10 volts will not start the car.
lower than 10 volts and you have a bad cell.
As mentioned before, if you run the leads from the multimeter to the positive and negative connections while it is running you shoud see about 14 volts.
OK so prior to jumping it the battery was at 1.95 :( I jumped it and the voltmeter went up to 14.xx+ consistently until I turned off the engine. So I think the alternator's fine based on what you guys (and Youtube lol) are saying. I let the car idle for several minutes before turning it off to see if the battery would charge up. After turning the engine off I noticed the battery was sitting at around 12v maybe just over, then the voltage started dropping and pretty quick. Within minutes after running back into the apartment to get some stuff and going back, the voltage had dropped to around 5-6v. I guess I can try driving the car around. The last time we drove it was a few days ago. When we take it out we usually take it out for at least 10-15 mins at a time but most of our driving is local. We haven't driven a long distance in the car in a while.
Regarding electrical drain, I did forget that I had a BT transmitter plugged into the center console armrest box where the jack apparently is on ALL the time even when the engine is off. I unplugged this last night after jump starting the car though. For the battery to drain that fast, it sounds like the battery may have gone bad no? So would any amount of driving around (even 30 mins+ to get the alternator going) really help in this case?
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When she drives the car, does it get to go > 10 miles per trip usually ?
This would give it more time to recharge. If she has made a bunch of short 5 minute drives , with periods of sitting for several days, than cold weather-, it could just need to be driven for 20+ minutes to fully charge the battery. This assumes you do not have a battery charger you could put on it overnight. I say be driven, as opposed to just idling, as some cars don't charge the battery much if they have a low idle speed.
I have a Noco maintainer but it's packed away in storage - I didn't think I would have a use for it since the car is parked outside all the time. But I realized that I can run a long extension cord from our balcony down to the space where we're parked and it would probably be able to reach (although I would probably get hassled by maintenance/front office that this is a hazard and I shouldn't do that hahaha).
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You can test the battery disconnected from the car to see if the voltage drops with nothing attached, but it sounds like you have a drain somewhere.
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You can test the battery disconnected from the car to see if the voltage drops with nothing attached, but it sounds like you have a drain somewhere.
I don't have anything else plugged in - what would cause it to drain that quickly assuming nothing else is plugged in?
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You can test the battery disconnected from the car to see if the voltage drops with nothing attached, but it sounds like you have a drain somewhere.
I don't have anything else plugged in - what would cause it to drain that quickly assuming nothing else is plugged in?
Could be a short somewhere, usually not easy to trace down, but it'd let you know whether or not to spend time looking at the alternator/battery or look for the short. I helped my BIL last year with a battery draining issue on his car. Not sure ultimately what it was since I didn't find the short, but I was able to isolate it to the cigarette lighter circuit with an IR camera. Pulled the fuse, no more dead battery, and since the car also had a separate 12v outlet, he really wasn't out anything. Nothing was plugged into it either, something on that circuit just kept draining the battery for years until we pulled the fuse.
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You can test the battery disconnected from the car to see if the voltage drops with nothing attached, but it sounds like you have a drain somewhere.
I don't have anything else plugged in - what would cause it to drain that quickly assuming nothing else is plugged in?
Could be a short somewhere, usually not easy to trace down, but it'd let you know whether or not to spend time looking at the alternator/battery or look for the short. I helped my BIL last year with a battery draining issue on his car. Not sure ultimately what it was since I didn't find the short, but I was able to isolate it to the cigarette lighter circuit with an IR camera. Pulled the fuse, no more dead battery, and since the car also had a separate 12v outlet, he really wasn't out anything. Nothing was plugged into it either, something on that circuit just kept draining the battery for years until we pulled the fuse.
Yikes. This wasn't a 2008 Mazda CX9 by chance was it? Hahaha...
I'm going to swing by Autozone later and see if I can just have them swap the battery. I just called and they found the transaction in their system under my brother's phone number. So will see if they'll be willing to just swap it out - the guy I talked to said there could be issues if I have to sign for anything but I said I could put my brother on the phone; he told me just come by and they'll check/test the battery and that likely they'll be able to swap it out no questions asked. Hopefully the same thing doesn't happen as far as the [new] battery getting drained. The car has been fine this whole time and I don't think my brother had any issues (although the prior battery he had installed was back in 2016, which was just a few years) either, so I guess we'll find out if the drain issue persists - would the same thing happen even on a new battery where, after it's installed, you check the voltmeter and it just keeps counting down?
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You can test the battery disconnected from the car to see if the voltage drops with nothing attached, but it sounds like you have a drain somewhere.
I don't have anything else plugged in - what would cause it to drain that quickly assuming nothing else is plugged in?
Could be a short somewhere, usually not easy to trace down, but it'd let you know whether or not to spend time looking at the alternator/battery or look for the short. I helped my BIL last year with a battery draining issue on his car. Not sure ultimately what it was since I didn't find the short, but I was able to isolate it to the cigarette lighter circuit with an IR camera. Pulled the fuse, no more dead battery, and since the car also had a separate 12v outlet, he really wasn't out anything. Nothing was plugged into it either, something on that circuit just kept draining the battery for years until we pulled the fuse.
Yikes. This wasn't a 2008 Mazda CX9 by chance was it? Hahaha...
I'm going to swing by Autozone later and see if I can just have them swap the battery. I just called and they found the transaction in their system under my brother's phone number. So will see if they'll be willing to just swap it out - the guy I talked to said there could be issues if I have to sign for anything but I said I could put my brother on the phone; he told me just come by and they'll check/test the battery and that likely they'll be able to swap it out no questions asked. Hopefully the same thing doesn't happen as far as the [new] battery getting drained. The car has been fine this whole time and I don't think my brother had any issues (although the prior battery he had installed was back in 2016, which was just a few years) either, so I guess we'll find out if the drain issue persists - would the same thing happen even on a new battery where, after it's installed, you check the voltmeter and it just keeps counting down?
Nope, it was a Mercury.
Yes, if there's a drain, it will drain a new battery too.
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You can test the battery disconnected from the car to see if the voltage drops with nothing attached, but it sounds like you have a drain somewhere.
I don't have anything else plugged in - what would cause it to drain that quickly assuming nothing else is plugged in?
Could be a short somewhere, usually not easy to trace down, but it'd let you know whether or not to spend time looking at the alternator/battery or look for the short. I helped my BIL last year with a battery draining issue on his car. Not sure ultimately what it was since I didn't find the short, but I was able to isolate it to the cigarette lighter circuit with an IR camera. Pulled the fuse, no more dead battery, and since the car also had a separate 12v outlet, he really wasn't out anything. Nothing was plugged into it either, something on that circuit just kept draining the battery for years until we pulled the fuse.
Yikes. This wasn't a 2008 Mazda CX9 by chance was it? Hahaha...
I'm going to swing by Autozone later and see if I can just have them swap the battery. I just called and they found the transaction in their system under my brother's phone number. So will see if they'll be willing to just swap it out - the guy I talked to said there could be issues if I have to sign for anything but I said I could put my brother on the phone; he told me just come by and they'll check/test the battery and that likely they'll be able to swap it out no questions asked. Hopefully the same thing doesn't happen as far as the [new] battery getting drained. The car has been fine this whole time and I don't think my brother had any issues (although the prior battery he had installed was back in 2016, which was just a few years) either, so I guess we'll find out if the drain issue persists - would the same thing happen even on a new battery where, after it's installed, you check the voltmeter and it just keeps counting down?
Nope, it was a Mercury.
Yes, if there's a drain, it will drain a new battery too.
Will the drain be notably as fast as how I described the current battery draining earlier?
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Ugh I'm such an idiot. I realized that I left the passenger light switched on last night. When I was talking about the voltage dropping quickly after starting the car earlier, that light was switched on. I didn't figure this out until a few hours later. Anyway, jump started the car and drove to Autozone. The guy I spoke with on the phone brought out his tester and said everything looked good as far as the battery is concerned. We drove the car around for a good hour or so, keeping it idling where we could. Stopped/Started it at Autozone then when we got gas. No issues. I just went down to check the voltage on the battery with the car off and it was 12.75v. I'll probably check again later tonight before bed and then again tomorrow morning to see if it has dropped. If it does drop, how much should I be expecting to see it drop?
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You can test the battery disconnected from the car to see if the voltage drops with nothing attached, but it sounds like you have a drain somewhere.
I don't have anything else plugged in - what would cause it to drain that quickly assuming nothing else is plugged in?
Could be a short somewhere, usually not easy to trace down, but it'd let you know whether or not to spend time looking at the alternator/battery or look for the short. I helped my BIL last year with a battery draining issue on his car. Not sure ultimately what it was since I didn't find the short, but I was able to isolate it to the cigarette lighter circuit with an IR camera. Pulled the fuse, no more dead battery, and since the car also had a separate 12v outlet, he really wasn't out anything. Nothing was plugged into it either, something on that circuit just kept draining the battery for years until we pulled the fuse.
Yikes. This wasn't a 2008 Mazda CX9 by chance was it? Hahaha...
I'm going to swing by Autozone later and see if I can just have them swap the battery. I just called and they found the transaction in their system under my brother's phone number. So will see if they'll be willing to just swap it out - the guy I talked to said there could be issues if I have to sign for anything but I said I could put my brother on the phone; he told me just come by and they'll check/test the battery and that likely they'll be able to swap it out no questions asked. Hopefully the same thing doesn't happen as far as the [new] battery getting drained. The car has been fine this whole time and I don't think my brother had any issues (although the prior battery he had installed was back in 2016, which was just a few years) either, so I guess we'll find out if the drain issue persists - would the same thing happen even on a new battery where, after it's installed, you check the voltmeter and it just keeps counting down?
Nope, it was a Mercury.
Yes, if there's a drain, it will drain a new battery too.
Will the drain be notably as fast as how I described the current battery draining earlier?
Depends on the state of your current battery, if it's still in good shape, the voltage will drop just as quickly. If it's already shot, than the new battery should hold on a bit longer before losing voltage. Sounds like you did have a drain, see what the next day brings. How big of a drop you'll see is dependent on battery condition, phantom drains, your normal power drains (alarm system, radio clock, PCM, etc.), but it should be minimal unless there's a problem.
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You can test the battery disconnected from the car to see if the voltage drops with nothing attached, but it sounds like you have a drain somewhere.
I don't have anything else plugged in - what would cause it to drain that quickly assuming nothing else is plugged in?
Could be a short somewhere, usually not easy to trace down, but it'd let you know whether or not to spend time looking at the alternator/battery or look for the short. I helped my BIL last year with a battery draining issue on his car. Not sure ultimately what it was since I didn't find the short, but I was able to isolate it to the cigarette lighter circuit with an IR camera. Pulled the fuse, no more dead battery, and since the car also had a separate 12v outlet, he really wasn't out anything. Nothing was plugged into it either, something on that circuit just kept draining the battery for years until we pulled the fuse.
Yikes. This wasn't a 2008 Mazda CX9 by chance was it? Hahaha...
I'm going to swing by Autozone later and see if I can just have them swap the battery. I just called and they found the transaction in their system under my brother's phone number. So will see if they'll be willing to just swap it out - the guy I talked to said there could be issues if I have to sign for anything but I said I could put my brother on the phone; he told me just come by and they'll check/test the battery and that likely they'll be able to swap it out no questions asked. Hopefully the same thing doesn't happen as far as the [new] battery getting drained. The car has been fine this whole time and I don't think my brother had any issues (although the prior battery he had installed was back in 2016, which was just a few years) either, so I guess we'll find out if the drain issue persists - would the same thing happen even on a new battery where, after it's installed, you check the voltmeter and it just keeps counting down?
Nope, it was a Mercury.
Yes, if there's a drain, it will drain a new battery too.
Will the drain be notably as fast as how I described the current battery draining earlier?
Depends on the state of your current battery, if it's still in good shape, the voltage will drop just as quickly. If it's already shot, than the new battery should hold on a bit longer before losing voltage. Sounds like you did have a drain, see what the next day brings. How big of a drop you'll see is dependent on battery condition, phantom drains, your normal power drains (alarm system, radio clock, PCM, etc.), but it should be minimal unless there's a problem.
Ok, just checked this AM and the voltage has dropped to 12.57. Last night after getting home it was at 12.75 - and maybe 3 or so hours later/before going to bed I checked again and it was around 12.70 IIRC.
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You can test the battery disconnected from the car to see if the voltage drops with nothing attached, but it sounds like you have a drain somewhere.
I don't have anything else plugged in - what would cause it to drain that quickly assuming nothing else is plugged in?
Could be a short somewhere, usually not easy to trace down, but it'd let you know whether or not to spend time looking at the alternator/battery or look for the short. I helped my BIL last year with a battery draining issue on his car. Not sure ultimately what it was since I didn't find the short, but I was able to isolate it to the cigarette lighter circuit with an IR camera. Pulled the fuse, no more dead battery, and since the car also had a separate 12v outlet, he really wasn't out anything. Nothing was plugged into it either, something on that circuit just kept draining the battery for years until we pulled the fuse.
Yikes. This wasn't a 2008 Mazda CX9 by chance was it? Hahaha...
I'm going to swing by Autozone later and see if I can just have them swap the battery. I just called and they found the transaction in their system under my brother's phone number. So will see if they'll be willing to just swap it out - the guy I talked to said there could be issues if I have to sign for anything but I said I could put my brother on the phone; he told me just come by and they'll check/test the battery and that likely they'll be able to swap it out no questions asked. Hopefully the same thing doesn't happen as far as the [new] battery getting drained. The car has been fine this whole time and I don't think my brother had any issues (although the prior battery he had installed was back in 2016, which was just a few years) either, so I guess we'll find out if the drain issue persists - would the same thing happen even on a new battery where, after it's installed, you check the voltmeter and it just keeps counting down?
Nope, it was a Mercury.
Yes, if there's a drain, it will drain a new battery too.
Will the drain be notably as fast as how I described the current battery draining earlier?
Depends on the state of your current battery, if it's still in good shape, the voltage will drop just as quickly. If it's already shot, than the new battery should hold on a bit longer before losing voltage. Sounds like you did have a drain, see what the next day brings. How big of a drop you'll see is dependent on battery condition, phantom drains, your normal power drains (alarm system, radio clock, PCM, etc.), but it should be minimal unless there's a problem.
Ok, just checked this AM and the voltage has dropped to 12.57. Last night after getting home it was at 12.75 - and maybe 3 or so hours later/before going to bed I checked again and it was around 12.70 IIRC.
A voltage drop isn't necessarily going to tell you what you need to know. A surface charge on a fully charged battery will dissipate after a few hours and result in a drop in voltage.
You need to test what amps are being drawn while the car is off an there are no accessories plugged in with an amp meter. Anything more than around 50 milliamp means you have a problem (any relatively modern car will have some drain due to computers, alarms, radios, etc. that run always). It's a very easy thing to test if you have a multimeter.
See: https://www.yourmechanic.com/article/how-to-diagnose-a-car-battery-drain_2
And lots of you tube videos to help if you search.
If you have a drain then you have to do the painstaking process of locating the drain. There's a few things that are easy to test:
* can take the car to Autozone and they can test your alternator (and possibly other major parts depending on your car)
* you can verify that /every/ light bulb in the car works - a fused bulb can create a draw
* you can check if power points work - a shorted power point can cause a draw
but after that you have to pop the fuze box and start testing circuits.
A drain could be anything from a bad alternator to a blown tail light to a shorted wire somewhere from rodent damage. It's a PITA.
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You can test the battery disconnected from the car to see if the voltage drops with nothing attached, but it sounds like you have a drain somewhere.
I don't have anything else plugged in - what would cause it to drain that quickly assuming nothing else is plugged in?
Could be a short somewhere, usually not easy to trace down, but it'd let you know whether or not to spend time looking at the alternator/battery or look for the short. I helped my BIL last year with a battery draining issue on his car. Not sure ultimately what it was since I didn't find the short, but I was able to isolate it to the cigarette lighter circuit with an IR camera. Pulled the fuse, no more dead battery, and since the car also had a separate 12v outlet, he really wasn't out anything. Nothing was plugged into it either, something on that circuit just kept draining the battery for years until we pulled the fuse.
Yikes. This wasn't a 2008 Mazda CX9 by chance was it? Hahaha...
I'm going to swing by Autozone later and see if I can just have them swap the battery. I just called and they found the transaction in their system under my brother's phone number. So will see if they'll be willing to just swap it out - the guy I talked to said there could be issues if I have to sign for anything but I said I could put my brother on the phone; he told me just come by and they'll check/test the battery and that likely they'll be able to swap it out no questions asked. Hopefully the same thing doesn't happen as far as the [new] battery getting drained. The car has been fine this whole time and I don't think my brother had any issues (although the prior battery he had installed was back in 2016, which was just a few years) either, so I guess we'll find out if the drain issue persists - would the same thing happen even on a new battery where, after it's installed, you check the voltmeter and it just keeps counting down?
Nope, it was a Mercury.
Yes, if there's a drain, it will drain a new battery too.
Will the drain be notably as fast as how I described the current battery draining earlier?
Depends on the state of your current battery, if it's still in good shape, the voltage will drop just as quickly. If it's already shot, than the new battery should hold on a bit longer before losing voltage. Sounds like you did have a drain, see what the next day brings. How big of a drop you'll see is dependent on battery condition, phantom drains, your normal power drains (alarm system, radio clock, PCM, etc.), but it should be minimal unless there's a problem.
Ok, just checked this AM and the voltage has dropped to 12.57. Last night after getting home it was at 12.75 - and maybe 3 or so hours later/before going to bed I checked again and it was around 12.70 IIRC.
A voltage drop isn't necessarily going to tell you what you need to know. A surface charge on a fully charged battery will dissipate after a few hours and result in a drop in voltage.
You need to test what amps are being drawn while the car is off an there are no accessories plugged in with an amp meter. Anything more than around 50 milliamp means you have a problem (any relatively modern car will have some drain due to computers, alarms, radios, etc. that run always). It's a very easy thing to test if you have a multimeter.
See: https://www.yourmechanic.com/article/how-to-diagnose-a-car-battery-drain_2
And lots of you tube videos to help if you search.
If you have a drain then you have to do the painstaking process of locating the drain. There's a few things that are easy to test:
* can take the car to Autozone and they can test your alternator (and possibly other major parts depending on your car)
* you can verify that /every/ light bulb in the car works - a fused bulb can create a draw
* you can check if power points work - a shorted power point can cause a draw
but after that you have to pop the fuze box and start testing circuits.
A drain could be anything from a bad alternator to a blown tail light to a shorted wire somewhere from rodent damage. It's a PITA.
Looks like I'll need to buy a better multimeter. The HF one seems to short and turn off when I set it to 200mA and immediately upon placing the probes on the terminals. The article linked says to use a multimeter with at least a 20amp fuse. I *think* the fuse on these is 0.5a but it's hard to tell/read on the metal part
Any recommendations on a solid multimeter that won't break the bank? Was looking on Amazon but I don't want to end up with some junky one.
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Are you putting the probes across the pos and neg battery terminals? That’s no good for amperage. Needs to be in series, so you’ll have to disconnect the pos cable and probe between cable and pos terminal.
If you’re already doing that, never mind.
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Are you putting the probes across the pos and neg battery terminals? That’s no good for amperage. Needs to be in series, so you’ll have to disconnect the pos cable and probe between cable and pos terminal.
If you’re already doing that, never mind.
Yea so I was placing the positive probe on the pos battery terminal and the negative probe on the neg battery terminal. No idea how to check all this... doh, just re-read the article:
"Next you’ll want to attach your amp meter, in the correct series, to your electrical system. This is done by disconnecting the negative battery terminal from the negative post on the battery and using the positive and negative probes on the amp meter to complete the circuit between the battery post and battery terminal."
So basically just disconnect the negative post [only] and THEN place the probes like how I was doing before (it's just that the negative terminal isn't connected to the car). Will the cheapo HF Centech multimeter still work for this?
EDIT: just read what you typed again and you're saying to disconnect the positive terminal (but leave the negative connected)? I thought you were generally supposed to disconnect the negative terminal first...?
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I suppose disconnecting negative is safer. Same principle.
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I suppose disconnecting negative is safer. Same principle.
Cool. I'll give it a shot. Thanks for pointing it out. Actually... I think something is wrong with the multimeter. The screen blanks out completely when I am using the probes on a simple battery. I think I should probably just pickup a decent multimeter at this point.
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I suppose disconnecting negative is safer. Same principle.
Cool. I'll give it a shot. Thanks for pointing it out. Actually... I think something is wrong with the multimeter. The screen blanks out completely when I am using the probes on a simple battery. I think I should probably just pickup a decent multimeter at this point.
You probably fried it when you placed it on terminals directly @ 200mA. I should have been more clear with what I was saying, sorry.
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I suppose disconnecting negative is safer. Same principle.
Cool. I'll give it a shot. Thanks for pointing it out. Actually... I think something is wrong with the multimeter. The screen blanks out completely when I am using the probes on a simple battery. I think I should probably just pickup a decent multimeter at this point.
You probably fried it when you placed it on terminals directly @ 200mA. I should have been more clear with what I was saying, sorry.
My fault - I obviously need to learn how to use a multimeter haha. I think I probably half-fried this thing even before this. I noticed some of the functions were acting weird even prior. The HF multimeters are junk - I had another one that stopped working out of nowhere. I heard something rattling inside, opened it up and it was a loose piece of solder that detached at some point.
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I think you’re still doing it wrong. Reread what I wrote and the instructions you typed out. Worded differently but saying the same thing. The current of what you want to measure needs to flow through the meter. Putting the probes across the pos and neg terminals of the battery is shorting it out.
To measure amperage, the meter probes need to both be on either the outgoing or incoming end of the current path, if that makes sense. At some point you’ll hit a uereka moment. Or look up a diagram and it will be obvious.
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I suppose disconnecting negative is safer. Same principle.
Cool. I'll give it a shot. Thanks for pointing it out. Actually... I think something is wrong with the multimeter. The screen blanks out completely when I am using the probes on a simple battery. I think I should probably just pickup a decent multimeter at this point.
You probably fried it when you placed it on terminals directly @ 200mA. I should have been more clear with what I was saying, sorry.
My fault - I obviously need to learn how to use a multimeter haha. I think I probably half-fried this thing even before this. I noticed some of the functions were acting weird even prior. The HF multimeters are junk - I had another one that stopped working out of nowhere. I heard something rattling inside, opened it up and it was a loose piece of solder that detached at some point.
There should be a fast acting fuse inside that you can replace
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Here's a better video/instructions:
https://youtu.be/n5FJDgcdii8
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I suppose disconnecting negative is safer. Same principle.
Cool. I'll give it a shot. Thanks for pointing it out. Actually... I think something is wrong with the multimeter. The screen blanks out completely when I am using the probes on a simple battery. I think I should probably just pickup a decent multimeter at this point.
You probably fried it when you placed it on terminals directly @ 200mA. I should have been more clear with what I was saying, sorry.
My fault - I obviously need to learn how to use a multimeter haha. I think I probably half-fried this thing even before this. I noticed some of the functions were acting weird even prior. The HF multimeters are junk - I had another one that stopped working out of nowhere. I heard something rattling inside, opened it up and it was a loose piece of solder that detached at some point.
There should be a fast acting fuse inside that you can replace
So the second HF multimeter that has been 'half-working' for me has the fuse soldered on :( The one that's completely broken has the replaceable fuse. So like I was saying, I think I'm going to need a new multimeter either way - any good recommendations?
In the meantime, I'll research how to measure the amps properly. Hopefully the car continues to start - will probably need to take it for another spin later today.
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I suppose disconnecting negative is safer. Same principle.
Cool. I'll give it a shot. Thanks for pointing it out. Actually... I think something is wrong with the multimeter. The screen blanks out completely when I am using the probes on a simple battery. I think I should probably just pickup a decent multimeter at this point.
You probably fried it when you placed it on terminals directly @ 200mA. I should have been more clear with what I was saying, sorry.
My fault - I obviously need to learn how to use a multimeter haha. I think I probably half-fried this thing even before this. I noticed some of the functions were acting weird even prior. The HF multimeters are junk - I had another one that stopped working out of nowhere. I heard something rattling inside, opened it up and it was a loose piece of solder that detached at some point.
There should be a fast acting fuse inside that you can replace
So the second HF multimeter that has been 'half-working' for me has the fuse soldered on :( The one that's completely broken has the replaceable fuse. So like I was saying, I think I'm going to need a new multimeter either way - any good recommendations?
In the meantime, I'll research how to measure the amps properly. Hopefully the car continues to start - will probably need to take it for another spin later today.
Multimeters are an item that you really do get what you pay for in both longevity and accuracy. For what you are currently doing even the cheaper ones in the 20-30 dollar range will be 'good enough' probably but may have those lovely soldered on fuses and be fragile (multimeters are very impact sensitive).
I have a 50 or 60 buck Klein that's worked for me for many years but I don't really have a good comparison for you.
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Had a friend who instead of figuring out the electric problem just detached one of the battery connections whenever he parked the car. Worked fine until he got into a minor crash (incredibly minor - I was in the passenger seat when this happened. I don't think we were going over 5 MPH and the other car was stopped). Hood bent just right so we couldn't open it and the thoroughly loosened battery connector detached as well. What can I say? Young and stupid.
So you could always go that route - disconnecting the battery every time you turn the car off will prevent it from draining overnight regardless of what the source of the drain is.
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Had a friend who instead of figuring out the electric problem just detached one of the battery connections whenever he parked the car. Worked fine until he got into a minor crash (incredibly minor - I was in the passenger seat when this happened. I don't think we were going over 5 MPH and the other car was stopped). Hood bent just right so we couldn't open it and the thoroughly loosened battery connector detached as well. What can I say? Young and stupid.
So you could always go that route - disconnecting the battery every time you turn the car off will prevent it from draining overnight regardless of what the source of the drain is.
I was considering just removing the battery every time and bringing it inside to hook it up to my Noco Genius LOL.
I just went back downtstairs to check and my multimeter can't handle the amperage I guess. It just blanks out after a second of placing the probes on the battery - in this case, I had the negative probe on the negative terminal and the positive problem touching the negative connector which I *think* is what you're supposed to do (?)
I checked the voltage again and it's currently at 12.59v. I think things might be ok - it's been sitting overnight and all day. The biggest indicator will be once I try actually starting the car
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Had a friend who instead of figuring out the electric problem just detached one of the battery connections whenever he parked the car. Worked fine until he got into a minor crash (incredibly minor - I was in the passenger seat when this happened. I don't think we were going over 5 MPH and the other car was stopped). Hood bent just right so we couldn't open it and the thoroughly loosened battery connector detached as well. What can I say? Young and stupid.
So you could always go that route - disconnecting the battery every time you turn the car off will prevent it from draining overnight regardless of what the source of the drain is.
That's a good emergency procedure, but not a long term option as you mention.
However, if you do have a drain and you isolate it to a circuit to something you can't easily/affordable fix and its something not essential like the radio or power points you can just pull the fuse to that circuit and move on.
Don't do this unless you are very, very sure you are only disabling things that are not important though. Don't want to yank a fuse to a critical safety system or something heh.
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in this case, I had the negative probe on the negative terminal and the positive problem touching the negative connector which I *think* is what you're supposed to do (?)
Yes, correct connection. Not sure what to tell you about the rest of your issues, however.
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I really think you need to bring your car to a good car mechanic. You most likely still have something drawing current. With old cars, you pull the battery terminal and insert an ammeter. With new cars, when you reconnect with the ammeter, all the electronic modules in the car reset and go through startup. You can have several amps for a couple minutes.
There is a trick. Connect a wire from the terminal of the battery to the connector. Once connected, pull off the connector, keeping the wire in place. You could use something like a hose clamp to keep it in place. Next, hook up your ammeter to both sides as before. Leave the car alone for an hour. Then come back and remove one end of the wire. The ammeter will now measure the current without having the modules all reset.
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I really think you need to bring your car to a good car mechanic. You most likely still have something drawing current. With old cars, you pull the battery terminal and insert an ammeter. With new cars, when you reconnect with the ammeter, all the electronic modules in the car reset and go through startup. You can have several amps for a couple minutes.
There is a trick. Connect a wire from the terminal of the battery to the connector. Once connected, pull off the connector, keeping the wire in place. You could use something like a hose clamp to keep it in place. Next, hook up your ammeter to both sides as before. Leave the car alone for an hour. Then come back and remove one end of the wire. The ammeter will now measure the current without having the modules all reset.
I just took the car for a spin - it took longer to crank for sure. Again, not sure if the cold plays a factor in any of this. Car is exposed and it has been in the 40s-50s lately (normally it's in the 60s-70s). As far as taking it to a mechanic, I could bring it in to my mechanic but he's further away and we got the car serviced not that long ago... thing is, if he confirms that the battery is bad, I'm not sure what Autozone will do if whatever they use to test the batteries keeps telling them the batteries are good. I actually read about this happening to someone who complained about Autozone ducking out of honoring the warranty on the battery. The guy took his car to like 2-3 different independent mechanics to confirm the battery was bad and Autozone kept telling him nothing is wrong with it. Even after escalating to a manager they wouldn't replace his battery. But I guess in this case we're trying to determine if there's a phantom power draw on the car.
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When was the last time you replaced the spark plugs?
Also, not sure what car it is, but is it a distributor or coil packs?
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Guys, guys! I know we all want to help @jeromedawg definitively track down the problem and fix it, but I think a little too much armchair internet diagnostics are getting in the way and overcomplicating things with talk of chasing down phantom power draws with someone who doesn't have the sufficient electrical/technical background to even own more than a $2 Harbor Freight multimeter.
What do we know?
-Jeromedawg lives in SoCal, and SoCal has gotten real winter this past week and there's symptoms of difficulty cranking with a cold engine.
-The one night after the battery was completely dead was after accidentally leaving a light on in the cabin.
-The car hasn't been driven much for long session runs and proper recharges the past year due to the pandemic, shortening the life of the battery further. Lead acid is forgiving, but it's still not that forgiving.
-The car has been serviced with a trusted mechanic within the past few months with a clean bill of health, and the previous owner was his brother, so it's not some used mystery machine haunted with gremlins.
-AutoZone sells crappy Exide batteries with known quality control issues to the point as has been pointed out they don't like to honor the warranty even when the batteries are testing bad.
Advanced Auto Parts does similar, so I assume it standard practice given my own experience nearly a decade ago when one of their cheap Exide batteries went bad and corroded out around the terminals less than 18 months in on a three year battery and they tried to blame my alternator without even hooking anything up while trying to dodge a warranty swap. The "bad" alternator is still on my car a decade later working fine, but not their batteries. Never their batteries again. All these chain shops source their parts from the same manufacturers, the only thing that changes is the packaging.
Sometimes, a duck is just a duck.
Jerry, just take the car to a Walmart service center and have them test the battery for you for free. These people will have no vested interest in lying to you given their pay, no warranty on the line, and no sales bonus for selling you something you don't need. They'll likely even give you a paper printout of the battery test results to take with you. If the thing tests bad or is on the way out, just go to Costco, eat the money, and replace it with something you know is decent from a seller who won't try and screw you on a warranty return. Then, be sure to take better care of your battery in the coming years by actually stretching and exercising your car every couple months to keep the seals wet, the carbon buildup burnt off, the battery happy, and the tires from developing flat spots. You've been fighting this for three days and destroyed two admittedly crappy multimeters already.
If there's still a phantom power draw causing problems after that? Then cross that bridge when you get to it, but if replacing the battery fixes the problem? You're done! Go home and rest easy knowing the job is done.
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Guys, guys! I know we all want to help @jeromedawg definitively track down the problem and fix it, but I think a little too much armchair internet diagnostics are getting in the way and overcomplicating things with talk of chasing down phantom power draws with someone who doesn't have the sufficient electrical/technical background to even own more than a $2 Harbor Freight multimeter.
What do we know?
-Jeromedawg lives in SoCal, and SoCal has gotten real winter this past week and there's symptoms of difficulty cranking with a cold engine.
-The one night after the battery was completely dead was after accidentally leaving a light on in the cabin.
-The car hasn't been driven much for long session runs and proper recharges the past year due to the pandemic, shortening the life of the battery further. Lead acid is forgiving, but it's still not that forgiving.
-The car has been serviced with a trusted mechanic within the past few months with a clean bill of health, and the previous owner was his brother, so it's not some used mystery machine haunted with gremlins.
-AutoZone sells crappy Exide batteries with known quality control issues to the point as has been pointed out they don't like to honor the warranty even when the batteries are testing bad.
Advanced Auto Parts does similar, so I assume it standard practice given my own experience nearly a decade ago when one of their cheap Exide batteries went bad and corroded out around the terminals less than 18 months in on a three year battery and they tried to blame my alternator without even hooking anything up while trying to dodge a warranty swap. The "bad" alternator is still on my car a decade later working fine, but not their batteries. Never their batteries again. All these chain shops source their parts from the same manufacturers, the only thing that changes is the packaging.
Sometimes, a duck is just a duck.
Jerry, just take the car to a Walmart service center and have them test the battery for you for free. These people will have no vested interest in lying to you given their pay, no warranty on the line, and no sales bonus for selling you something you don't need. They'll likely even give you a paper printout of the battery test results to take with you. If the thing tests bad or is on the way out, just go to Costco, eat the money, and replace it with something you know is decent from a seller who won't try and screw you on a warranty return. Then, be sure to take better care of your battery in the coming years by actually stretching and exercising your car every couple months to keep the seals wet, the carbon buildup burnt off, the battery happy, and the tires from developing flat spots. You've been fighting this for three days and destroyed two admittedly crappy multimeters already.
If there's still a phantom power draw causing problems after that? Then cross that bridge when you get to it, but if replacing the battery fixes the problem? You're done! Go home and rest easy knowing the job is done.
Haha thanks buddy. Good idea on taking it to a Walmart service center to get tested. Hopefully there's not a crazy wait. Couldn't I just do the same at a Costco service center? We have AAA as well so wondering if it's worth exercising having them come out to test the thing.
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Walmart has a more full-service service center (if the particular Walmart has one). Costco does tires and batteries, but not much else - not sure 'check the battery' is necessarily a separate service they provide there. And the Costco tire centers seem to always be very busy whenever I've been by, whereas Walmart is more often not as busy. But then I've never lived where you do - situation might be wholly different in your area.
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Haha thanks buddy. Good idea on taking it to a Walmart service center to get tested. Hopefully there's not a crazy wait. Couldn't I just do the same at a Costco service center? We have AAA as well so wondering if it's worth exercising having them come out to test the thing.
Honestly, it's better to know than not, so getting the electrical system and battery tested first wouldn't hurt anything. This said, AutoZone already did a test, and though they think the battery is fine (it may be, may be borderline, may be bad and trying to dodge the exchange), I'm pretty sure they wouldn't pass up the chance to sell you an alternator. But, second opinions are never awful, Walmart has the lowest stakes basic free diagnostics for this stuff, and Costco doesn't test or install batteries - which helps with the no-questions warranty exchange. It's possible your AAA service center might be able to do likewise, but I've never dealt with them.
If the alternator is bad, you're probably looking at having to replace the battery anyway and your mechanic doing the work, better to have a battery in there with a no question warranty exchange. If there's more phantom power draw than normal with any car made in the past 40 years, having a new good battery lose enough charge after sitting two weeks is going to be a great diagnostics point for your mechanic, which I doubt you'll want to try and diagnose yourself anyway.
The battery is already pushing close to three years from manufacture at this point. It's a known shoddy brand. It's had a rough year with improper recharging with plenty of short trips in a warm/hot climate, and it's struggling to start a cold engine during an unusual snap of actual winter. The only ways to rehab a dying SLA battery involves trickle chargers you don't have and potentially turning your complex into a superfund site trying to clean out the lead scale while being careful not to melt the flesh off your fingers and face and going mad as a hatter from lead dust exposure, or starting a fire.
If it were me in your shoes at this point? I'd buy the felt pads and dielectric grease pack from my closest parts shop, grab my tools, and take the ten minutes to just replace the fool battery out in the Costco parking lot and stop worrying about it. If there's still problems after that, you can cross that bridge then with your trusted mechanic that you'd probably have do the work anyway, and if the problem's fixed just replacing the battery, you're done and your wife's happy.
Then, if you still want to learn all this basic vehicular electrical diagnostics stuff, you can do so on your own time while the car is actually working.
K.I.S.S., man, K.I.S.S.