The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: schnell on March 13, 2015, 12:55:12 PM
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Hey there! I'm so undecisive right now! I've been a Mac user for the last 10 years and Macs have served me very well. However, ever since I "became a mustachian" one year ago it just hurts to pay so much money for a computer again even though I could pay it in cash with no problems! My last Mac just died and served me well for about 6 years. However, it cost me about 1700 Euros back then. That means that I spent like 25 Euros (I replaced battery and HDD too) every month for that Computer!
The problem so far is that I kind of need a computer right now, I've been trying other options instead of Macs for the last month and I'm just being unefficient, not because the other options don't work but because I can't decide what to buy now. I could get a cheap desktop Windows PC but then I think that I sometimes really want to be mobile. Also, Windows PCs tend to be quite loud and take up space, plus you lose time because of all that updating and virus stuff! I'm not experienced in Linux and need Microsoft Office otherwise I would just use an old PC with Linux.
However, if I want to be mobile Macs just are the best computers out there because they combine power with good battery life and great displays (retina). I also tested an Acer Chromebook but the display was just killing my eyes..
I'm just confused. I kind of think that I should probably be able to get the job done with whatever computer I can get as long as it has word and a keyboard. I don't know what to do.
Do you have any suggestions? I'm a student by the way, so I kind of rely on a god computer but don't earn money with it...
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I always think that a mac or any apple product, is worth it in the long run.
I have gone in and out of the eco-system many times over the years but I always look forward to returning to apple products, regardless of the price.
They just work.
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A Mac uses all the same parts as a Windows PC with a fancier case. Their margin on laptops is unbelievable.
They're a luxury purchase, not needed by 99% of the population. Any laptop you find, I can get you equal specs for at least 20% less. 3 years ago it was 50% less, so at least they're less of a ripoff.
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Your average computer user would do just fine with a free distro of Ubuntu on any old hardware. Open office is a full featured free replacement for MS products, and should be able to open stuff created in microsoft office. It's absolutely worth giving a serious look.
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Windows machines get a bad reputation because people compare cheap windows machines to expensive mac ones. Buy a nice windows laptop and it will be quiet, work well, etc. But buy a bargain basement walmart special- not so much. (Things still wear down- notice how the mac still needed a new hard drive and battery- SSD's are much hardier than traditional hard drives, and if you buy a laptop I would recommend an SSD (Solid state drive- much faster, much more expensive, no moving parts, much more durable))
You are a mac user, have mac software licenses, and like mac- stick with mac! But why not buy a 1-2 year old used computer? Computers depreciate faster than cars, and I've been happy with used technology I have purchased.
(I have never purchased a mac- I am a linux/windows user who can't stand mac OS- but if you like it, and want to use it, stick with mac)
Lastly, what died on the old mac? You can replace any part of a computer, and it is usually decently cost effective. At least fix the old machine and sell it, using the proceeds towards the new computer.
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I have a macbook pro 15" that is about 4 years old.
I lucked out and because I purchased in December my friend from HS who worked there let me use her once a year discount on a computer, so I paid about 1300, instead of the 1700.
This past Christmas I purchased an Acer Chromebook to replace my SO's 6 year old 13" macbook pro.
It took her a few days to get used to it, she LOVES it. 11 hour battery, 8 while streaming netflix at half brightness, very light.
The best part? It cost 80+% LESS than a comparable Macbook.
I love my Mac, however I will not shell out 6-8x as much for a product that will essentially do the same thing for me.
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I have had good luck buying refurbished on apple.com.
It's not like hugely discounted, but at least you get apple warranty starting from the day you buy it (e.g., not if you buy second hand from someone else).
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Your average computer user would do just fine with a free distro of Ubuntu on any old hardware. Open office is a full featured free replacement for MS products, and should be able to open stuff created in microsoft office. It's absolutely worth giving a serious look.
Absolutely this, especially since trying Linux is effectively free, and you don't even have to install Linux first to ensure LibreOffice will work with your existing documents as LO can be downloaded and run on any platform, including OSX. Pair Ubuntu 14.04 LTS with a nice refurbished Lenovo Thinkpad T or X laptop, and you could easily have a sweet little rugged setup for well under €400.
If you insist and decide to go Apple again anyway, buy a 2-3 year old refurb instead and save some money.
Whatever you do, stay away from the consumer laptop crap running Windows. I say this not so much to bag on Microsoft but the build quality of consumer market laptops. Refurbished business/enterprise equipment is far and away better built, will last longer, and cost less as an off-lease refurb... thus the Thinkpad suggestion.
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Your average computer user would do just fine with a free distro of Ubuntu on any old hardware. Open office is a full featured free replacement for MS products, and should be able to open stuff created in microsoft office. It's absolutely worth giving a serious look.
Absolutely this, especially since trying Linux is effectively free, and you don't even have to install Linux first to ensure LibreOffice will work with your existing documents as LO can be downloaded and run on any platform, including OSX. Pair Ubuntu 14.04 LTS with a nice refurbished Lenovo Thinkpad T or X laptop, and you could easily have a sweet little rugged setup for well under €400.
If you insist and decide to go Apple again anyway, buy a 2-3 year old refurb instead and save some money.
Whatever you do, stay away from the consumer laptop crap running Windows. I say this not so much to bag on Microsoft but the build quality of consumer market laptops. Refurbished business/enterprise equipment is far and away better built, will last longer, and cost less as an off-lease refurb... thus the Thinkpad suggestion.
Someone who paid full boat for Apple laptops is unlikely to have the desire or wherewithal to deal with OS compatibility issues.
For websurfing and light office use, just buy a cheap Windows machine
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Personally I like to spend $$$ on the device I will be using every single day of my life.
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Personally I like to spend $$$ on the device I will be using every single day of my life.
That's fine. It's still objectively a complete waste of money.
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Personally I like to spend $$$ on the device I will be using every single day of my life.
That's fine. It's still objectively a complete waste of money.
No. My quality of experience is worth it. And Macs easily last twice as long as PCs.
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ONLY IF you run your own business and handle calls and communication SUPER regularly would I suggest:
1) don't skimp on a very fast phone (but no need for an iphone) and
2) you do not need a mac to handle 99% of all activities requiring a computer unless you are a video editor or designer.
You can save $1500-$2500 on a laptop by switching to a PC. If you don't move it around much, even better, it will last longer. If you need it to be rugged, get an even cheaper one.
I've been using my pretty inexpensive Lenovo IdeaPad U310 for 3+ years. At $500, I don't worry too much about it getting dinged up here and there. Sure for video exporting it does take .. 20 minutes longer than a different computer but who cares, I just head out to do errands or work while it happens anyway.
My phone is more expensive than my laptop and just as important for operating my business but even so, combined, they are both less than $1000. I see this as a completely necessary business expense and put it in that category of spending (required, guilt free, optimize but get something fast).
Finally:
The "fix it yourself" mentality might be useful here too -- instead of worrying about "It just works" and spending $1500 extra, save $1500 and learn how to maintain your computer like you do your car, your home, and your clothing -- software wise make sure you have spyware, antiviruses, , and learn how to minimize RAM usage (google "turn off startup programs windows") and defragment your hard drive -- hardware wise, grab a cheap can of pressurized air and that's about all you need.
If you don't fit in the above category, purchase a cheap laptop on ebay or craigslist that was purchased within the last 3 years and you're going to be super set. Most will still have a copy of Windows on it but feel free to use Ubuntu.
You can purchase a refurbished new lenovo laptop that is way more than good enough for $330 online so you should be able to find something that will handle basically anything for $200 easily.
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I buy certified refurb macbooks from Apple - just got one this month to replace an aged-out computer. I can get what basically amounts to a new computer (and is free to fix for any issue for 1 year - everything mechanical or software related except for stuff due to user stupidity - like drops or spilled liquids) for roughly 80% of what the new ones cost.
There are resellers out there that also sell "gently used" or refurbs. I'd suggest checking for those as well and making sure before you buy that they have an excellent reputation and some sort of good coverage similar to Mac's AppleCare, as they would be an even cheaper route while still allowing you to get a Mac.
If your laptop is only 6 years old, are you sure it can't be repaired? It may still be worth it to just get it fixed and hold onto it for a few more years.
I am a professional graphics person, and the only computer I'll ever use is a Mac. Macs were made for my group of people, and they just work best. Some folks compromise on cars or travel or other expenses to spend a bit more on something they want (vs need) in another area - and this is mine, because the quality and intuitive usability of the machine I use to produce my artwork is important to me. Considering that I've had my last Mac last over 9 or 10 years (and is still going strong; if only I could upgrade the OS), I think is a pretty okay area to "splurge" in.
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And Macs easily last twice as long as PCs.
Respectfully, this is a phenomenally uninformed statement.
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Get a refurbed Macbook Air, they're around 700 dollars. That's a great price for a powerful ultrabook, Mac or PC.
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And Macs easily last twice as long as PCs.
Respectfully, this is a phenomenally uninformed statement.
I have a 2007 white macbook that is still going great with osx 10, a 2009 macbook pro 13 inch that is still going great with osx 10, and a 2012 15 inch macbook pro that is still working great. And a 2010 macbook air that still works great too.
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Apple laptops are actually excellent value for their cost, but that doesn't mean they are a good purchase for the average person.
It's a common myth that there are comparable laptops available for radically cheaper price from other vendors, but if you actually research it, you'll discover that is broadly false. Some components are actually much cheaper when purchased from Apple than when purchased from most vendors (such as SSDs, which Apple can apparently acquire cheaply), other components are mostly comparable in price.
I think the key thing to understand is that with Apple, you are paying for top of the line fancypants hardware, which may exceed the actual needs of the average user. That doesn't mean it is overpriced, however; people who say that are typically comparing Apple products to far worse products that (shockingly enough) cost less.
I should clarify that this comment is restricted to the laptops. Many other Apple products are not particularly good value, such as the phones, watches, music players, and desktop computers.
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Get a refurbed Macbook Air, they're around 700 dollars. That's a great price for a powerful ultrabook, Mac or PC.
Or go a notch further and get a used one- the new version of the MacBook Air is coming out very soon, so expect a glut of practically brand new computers showing up on Craigslist any minute now. New Apple products are ludicrously expensive and worthy of a facepunch, but used ones are pretty hard to complain about.
Be patient and you can score a new machine for a minimal price. Lots of people end up selling computers cheap because they couldn't actually afford them to begin with, then reality comes crashing down in the form of a bill they can't pay.
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And Macs easily last twice as long as PCs.
Respectfully, this is a phenomenally uninformed statement.
I have a 2007 white macbook that is still going great with osx 10, a 2009 macbook pro 13 inch that is still going great with osx 10, and a 2012 15 inch macbook pro that is still working great. And a 2010 macbook air that still works great too.
I use a Windows NT computer at work that was installed in '96. Not my preference to use, but that's the software the customer wanted at the time, so we maintain it. And several Linux boxes that have been happily chugging along for decades.
An OS is just software.
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Someone who paid full boat for Apple laptops is unlikely to have the desire or wherewithal to deal with OS compatibility issues.
Not really an issue with Thinkpads as they're some of the consistently best supported hardware for Linux. Stuff just works. That only leaves software. If they're not wholly entrenched in the Apple ecosystem and LibreOffice can handle their MS Office docs, there's really no other major hurdles. Ubuntu is old-people friendly, and the Unity DE has a lower learning curve for OSX transplants. There's no more to learn about installing Linux these days than reinstalling Windows or OSX.
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Personally I like to spend $$$ on the device I will be using every single day of my life.
That's fine. It's still objectively a complete waste of money.
No. My quality of experience is worth it. And Macs easily last twice as long as PCs.
Citation needed.
Anytime I see a ranking, Apple's usually middling: http://www.rescuecom.com/news-press-releases/Computer-Reliability-Report-2013.aspx (http://www.rescuecom.com/news-press-releases/Computer-Reliability-Report-2013.aspx)
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Anything Apple is a luxury purchase, you are paying for the name. Apple computers have run the same hardware as every other computer for years, it's been a long time since they used RISC chips, and the last few generations of Apple OS are just Linux with a different GUI and all sorts of locking down to prevent you from using the machine in various ways but may make it easier for someone not familiar or confident with computers to use it.
Get a cheap computer with hardware that meets your needs, load whatever OS you want. If you like Linux, Ubuntu is a free and relatively use friendly OS, much better than Apple. MS comes packaged with most computers and the OEM licenses are not expensive so don't add much to the cost of buying a laptop. Personally I can't stand Apple, they charge an arm and a leg for cheap hardware and junky software that is not intuitive and won't let you do what you want either at all or without complex workarounds.
All that being said, if you like Apple products go ahead and buy what you like, but make an informed purchase and understand it's a luxury item, like designer clothes, and offers few if any practical or functional advantages over the competition.
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I heard MMM rocks a Macbook Pro Retina
/thread
Mr. PoP
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I heard MMM rocks a Macbook Pro Retina
/thread
Mr. PoP
MMM is also FI/RE/Independently wealthy/a multimillionaire
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Only you can make this decision. I vastly prefer the user experience of a Mac (Linux is awesome, but unfortunately there isn't a lot of software that's compatible which makes it impractical for me to use in most capacities) and am willing to pay a couple hundred extra in order to not want to stab my eyes out every time I use the computer. If you're going to get a Mac I'd highly recommend getting a refurb; they have the same warranty/protection for a lower cost than new.
If you're just using the computer for average day to day stuff (surfing the web, editing photos, watching movies, etc) then you should really look into getting a cheaper laptop and installing Ubuntu (a version of Linux). It's very user friendly and will work great if you don't need to run any specialized software. My husband installed it for his parents, who are totally not computer savvy, and they love it.
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We have two 2011 era macbook pros in our household which are still going quite strong (one is an i5 and another is an i7 processor). We've upgraded ram and they work perfectly for our purposes, which are not crazy, no film editing or anything like that, though I do a fair bit of excel and other programming.
They would be great machines, not as sleek and light as the Airs but very reasonable in price at this point.
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I've used lots of PC's and still have a PC at the office.
I've used Macs at home for 8-9yrs and like them better. They cost more, but I spend more time on my computer than anything else at home except sleeping so I don't mind paying more.
I did switch from an iPhone to an Samsung android phone and I don't miss the iPhone.
My next computer will be a Mac.
-- Vik
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How close are you to FI? What's your savings rate? Surely those should also factor into your decision. If you have massive debt and aren't saving, then you need to be more frugal. If you're at 50% savings and have a good store and no debt, then saving every penny is less crucial.
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Is a Mac laptop more expensive than an equivalent pc laptop such as Thinkpad? I do not think so. I just did a comparison between a loaded Thinkpad T450s and a MacBook Pro 13"
T450s
i7 + 14" FHD(1920 x 1080 mutil touch)+ 12 G RAM + 512 SSD = $2,105.10
MacBook Pro 13"
i7 + Retina Display+ 16 G RAM + 512 SSD = $2,199
Both are very solid laptops. You can't compare a MacBook pro with a cheap Inspiron.
However, do you actually need a nice laptop? I do not. I have a Dell Inspiron close to 10 years old. It just won't die. I can't even sell it. Maybe I will give it to my Mom.
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If you're just gonna be browsing the web, Facebook, and emailing though, it may not be the most Mustachian way to go (unless you find a smoking hot deal on one, like a Macbook Air for instance... but "smoking hot deal" is all relative when we start talking Apple). Admittedly, I own a Macbook Air and primarily just browse the web and email on it LOL. I probably would be just as well off with a Win laptop but I wanted to give the Mac a try. I do like it, except for the fact that it slows to a crawl when I have more than 3-4 apps open at a time in addition to a bunch of tabs in Firefox (which sucks but Chrome sucks worse). I haven't bought into Safari yet either.
Agree that if you're heavy into video-editing or photo-edit and anything design-oriented (where you need to use Adobe products, ironically), Macs are the way to go - they just seem designed for designers.
For business use, I think PCs/Windows still own the market. I use a PC at work and while it might be nice having a Mac, I think there would be more to figure out with certain logistics (in this case, a more technical person could probably do just fine with a Mac). But as I said, if you are doing design-work as a job, you most likely will have a Mac anyway.
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Thank you very much for your replies.
Well I'm not even close to FI yet since I'm still a student. Refurbished Macs on the Apple website are interesting but they are usually just 14-16% cheaper than the original retail price and it's usually the hardware that has been updated already. As a student I get a 12% discount on new Macs.
My old Macbook pro would totally be OK for me but the screen is broken and in an apple service store they told me that just the screen would cost like 400 Euros without repair. Since it's already 6 years old I tought it might just be worth it to get a new Mac, maybe a Macbook Air.
I'm convinced that I could use that Mac for at least 5 years if it doesn't die somehow. However, after 5 years it will probably need a new battery that might cost like 150 Euro to replace. The questions is also whether I should get the maximum RAM when I buy it or just go with the 4 GB in the standard MBP configuration. My idea was to use the Mac with OS X as long as it runs smoothly and gets security updates and whenever it's to slow just install Linux. The screen is also an issue. I have an external screen since I had been using my old Macbook Pro with that one when just the screen was broken. But now it died entirely. However, after university I might not want to have this big screen here and just use a nice high resolution retina display. Or I might just not want do use a computer after work anyways so it would absolutely not matter ;) I just don't really know.
Another point to consider is that if I spend more than 1000 Euros on a nice Mac I will have to take care of it. Obviously I wouldnt want it to get stolen or something. With a 300 Euro Chromebook that would not be too much of an issue and I could be a lot more relaxed about it.
Well, after all it's just a question of personal preference. What I tried to consider is also the monthly amount of money I spend on my computer on a monthly basis. My 1700 Euro Macbook Pro for 6 years costs like 24 Euros. If I use a 300 Euro Chromebook for two years it's half that price. However, getting a new one every two years is kind of against my anti consumer and throw away attitude. And if I consider that I'm trying to live as minimalistic as possible a small computer with an external screen and keyboard is just annoying too.
Well, how much do you think is a reasonable monthly budget for a computer on the long run?
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This may be a stupid no. 1 reason why I love my macbook air but the tracking pad is awesome.
When I've had windows laptops I've had to carry a damn mouse around because of how bad inbuilt pointers/trackers are on PC's.
So it's not just what's on the inside that counts when comparing ...
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I used to be in the "get an expensive computer that lasts forever!" camp, but at one point was shown that if you get a computer that costs 1/3 of the expensive one and lasts 1/2 as long, you're winning cost-wise. Furthermore, you spend more time with up-to-date technology rather than working with a 7-10 yo machine that may have limited support, spare parts, etc. Obviously the other end of the spectrum has other problems: the computers aren't reliable from the get-go, so you're worried about losing data/having it die inconveniently. Also replacing a computer *too* often is an environmental hazard. I don't know when I'd replace a fun/pleasure computer; I've always needed mine for school.
Started college in 2006 with a 2001 Dell Latitude. By 2008 it couldn't handle PDF+Word+Excel+internet for lab reports. 256 MB RAM, one slot was busted (i.e. couldn't expand).
Parents gifted ~$1500 2008 Dell Latitude in 2008. It was my baby and I loved it. Still chugging along, occasional blue-screens on certain non-critical functions/activities (I think the graphics card overheats, and yes, I have cleaned it). Leading to...
Fall 2014 got an ASUS T300 (i5, 128GB SSD), refurbed on eBay, for about $550. Love it for reading papers/highlighting as well as all the other stuff. Touchscreen makes Win8 make *sense*.
OP, expand your search. You're still saving money if your computer is 500euro instead of 300. I would expect one of the business-class PCs to have a similar lifetime to a Mac and reliability at least as good. The thing with PCs is that there are a *lot* of options out there so you have to look for what you need...
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You know, I think one of the things that I personally would have to consider is pleasure.
I have always used Macs. Like, since the 80s. I have always strongly preferred them. I have, however, only bought a Mac a couple of times. The rest have been computers or laptops that my work has furnished. The last time I bought one myself was in the late 1990s.
Right now, I have a Mac at work and use our (my husband bought it) PC at home. I have finally become proficient on the PC (it took a while), but I get no pleasure at all out of using it. It's a tool. It often frustrates me, and I often hate it. But it gets the job done.
If I had to buy a computer that I was going to use all the time, like if I was self-employed and heavily reliant on a computer that I'd be using 8 hours a day, I think I would really struggle with this decision. As it is now, I don't mind using the PC for bill paying, surfing the Net, etc. I have even written full-time on it for six months or so (while I was on a sabbatical from my job). While I was doing that, though, an almost-daily refrain from me was, "If I decide to quit my job and write permanently, screw this, I'm getting a Mac." I haven't quit my job yet, but if I did, I think that I'd strongly lean in that direction.
So, you probably have to think about what the tipping point is for you, where the amount of time you spend on the Mac justifies the extra comfort of having a more expensive machine.
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Good point. However, I probably spend more time on my computers than I should. So if I had an annoying and lound windows desktop PC I might just get the important stuff done as fast as possible and then do something healthier ;) Or I might not even start do use it and procrastinate, I don't know...
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Anything Apple is a luxury purchase, you are paying for the name. Apple computers have run the same hardware as every other computer for years, it's been a long time since they used RISC chips, and the last few generations of Apple OS are just Linux with a different GUI and all sorts of locking down to prevent you from using the machine in various ways but may make it easier for someone not familiar or confident with computers to use it.
As you know, there is more to "hardware" than "the architecture of the processor". The latter is a single very specific hardware property; it doesn't uniquely characterise all components of the computer. It seems like a bit of a nonsequitur to say that Apple laptops have x64 processors and therefore they should cost the same as any other laptop, regardless of the constituent hardware.
I agree with you that the operating system is irrelevant since it's just software. The phrase "Windows computer" is a bit of pet peeve, as is the term "PC". I actually blame Apple to a certain extent for the state of computer knowledge among the general public (i.e. very poor), because Apple's highly successful advertising campaigns were often based on false dichotomies (like "Mac versus PC", which doesn't even make any sense).
That said, OS X is not GNU/Linux. The kernel is Darwin (derived from FreeBSD) and the overall operating system environment is also BSD. There are many differences between BSD and GNU/Linux. They are not the same operating system.
As of today, MacBooks are not particularly "locked down"; you can run arbitrary code, including an arbitrary operating system. I believe you cannot easily reflash the bootloader as it is verified at the hardware level, so that aspect is locked down, but that is unlikely to affect even most advanced users.
In the future, I would not be surprised if Apple moved to lock down their laptops like they do with the phones, but they have not done that yet.
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In the future, I would not be surprised if Apple moved to lock down their laptops like they do with the phones, but they have not done that yet.
That sounds like a risky move. What about the hordes of devs using macs as their primary dev box who wouldn't be able to run $fashionableWebFramework locally?
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A Mac can make sense when you pay software developers to use it, because labor is the most expensive part of software development, followed by software licenses, followed by hardware.
But as a student, when you have a laptop that costs you mabye 550 Euros over the next five years, less than it did cost you over the past six years? I think you are just rationalizing why you do need a new computer when the old one would do just fine.
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A Mac can make sense when you pay software developers to use it, because labor is the most expensive part of software development, followed by software licenses, followed by hardware.
But as a student, when you have a laptop that costs you mabye 550 Euros over the next five years, less than it did cost you over the past six years? I think you are just rationalizing why you do need a new computer when the old one would do just fine.
You mean if I repair the old one? The risk is that, since it's so old already, once I repaired the Screen the next part that might fail is a fan and then the logicboard and then ... so I might just have gotten a new one for a similar price or even the same price when I consider that someone might pay me up to 200euros because they use the dead macbook pro for their own repairs.
Also I will finish university next year and won't get the Apple students discount after that.
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But that is the same reasoning why people buy a new car every three years... The old one might need more repairs, there is a special offer just for today...
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Well, that comparison doesn't really work for computers. Streets won't become faster or more difficult to drive on with time. For a computer websites and everything else will require more power and modern software won't run on them which will affect security. A car from 20 years ago will perfectly run on todays streets, a 20 year old computer won't be able to show any modern website.
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Caveat: Your mileage may vary.
I've been a unix guy forever -- going back to pre-Linux days. I typically get 8+ years out of midrange consumer grade laptops loaded with Linux. At that point, they're still very usable as "throwdowns" but are just getting sluggish with the ever bloating GUI environment. I still use them for various little things here and there.
If you only got 6 years out of a high end Mac... well, that doesn't sound good.
But: if you're afraid Linux is too hard, let me interject -- I've put 3 octogenarians on Linux. They didn't know they were using Linux. They were not particularly afraid of it. They did fine.
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I have purchased 100's of laptops over the years as part of my job. I can say that you get what you pay for. My mother would buy the cheap PC laptops for $300-400 and they last about a year on average. (Hardware was cheap and she's not very gentle on equipment). If you're a comfortable Mac user, buy a Mac for simplicity. It's well worth it. If you're a techie that doesn't mind the frustration of going with Linux, go for it.
You'll be using the device so often that a FUNCTIONING laptop is worth a lot more than 5 crappy laptops that slow you down.
Apple is very expensive but they also control their software and hardware more than anyone else. It works for me.
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I was a Windows support person and then a Windows-based programmer for years. But I don't allow Windows hardware in my home...at this time. (I like to keep my options open. :D)
Which computer do I use? Look at my user name.
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After all I might just get the previous version of Macbook Air. They're selling it for 869, seems OK for me.
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Spread over the expected lifetime of the computer, for something that's used daily, I figure it's often worth spending a little more. Be it Mac or PC depends on what software is useful for you and what you value.
With the obvious caveat that if you're paying cash, and not borrowing for it :)
If you don't value what a more expensive laptop (be it Mac or PC) offers, then don't bother.
I've got a MacBook Pro that's about to celebrate its sixth birthday. I do admit I've got the upgrade bug (and downsize bug, looking to go from a 15" MBP to a 13" retina MBP). Most likely I'll either buy from the Apple refurb store or wait until one of the big retailers has a 10% off sale.
The questions is also whether I should get the maximum RAM when I buy it or just go with the 4 GB in the standard MBP configuration.
Unless it's the 'classic' MacBook Pro, then consider going for more RAM. After all, you can't upgrade the RAM in the things.
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One thing's for sure: Apple does not serve a low-end market and if all you're going to do is surf the web and email then you don't need and shouldn't get a Mac.
Another thing's for sure: Apple is not just a name. It isn't just overpriced hardware. No where else can you get the look and feel for the same price. Once you start comparing things like build quality, noise pollution, trackpad and keyboard, and screen, it's literally more like comparing Apple's to Orange's. I just don't understand why people try to put blanket statements on your options by saying one is overpriced or the same can be had for much cheaper. I would not care if Sony made the best computers, I'd buy them, but they generally don't. Also, once you get high-end, the difference in price is negligible.
The fact is that Apple just doesn't make a cheap computer. *Most* people can get away with any $5-600 PC laptop and should.
All that said, I prefer Macs and I prefer to use Macs. I demand the processing power occasionally but as a whole I appreciate the luxury of the amazing screen and all of the other build quality benefits.
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I just replaced my mac and with Time Machine it was super easy to basically open the same machine when I got everything transferred. I bought used from Other World Computing (just google them) and got a nice machine, 3 years old for around mid-600s. I was and am quite satisfied with the bargain.
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Right now, I have a Mac at work and use our (my husband bought it) PC at home. I have finally become proficient on the PC (it took a while), but I get no pleasure at all out of using it. It's a tool. It often frustrates me, and I often hate it. But it gets the job done.
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So, you probably have to think about what the tipping point is for you, where the amount of time you spend on the Mac justifies the extra comfort of having a more expensive machine.
Its funny, because I would say the exact opposite: Macs often frustrate me, and I often hate it. I find windows PCs to generally be an absolute pleasure to use. But then I am not a casual user, I am a power user. I like Windows and windows-based software because it is extremely customizable and I can make everything function just the way I want. The Mac OS and most software designed for it allow only one way to do any given task, and if you don't like it, you are SOL.
But at the end of the day, both OSes will get the job done if you are a light to medium user. The exact same hardware that is in an apple computer can be found in hundreds of PC models from a wide range of manufacturers for a fraction of the price. I personally recommend ASUS, they are high quality but reasonable price.
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And Macs easily last twice as long as PCs.
Respectfully, this is a phenomenally uninformed statement.
Well, we can only go on our personal experience.
I have a 2009 MacBook Pro that sees usage every day and is doing just fine.
I have a 2011 MacBook Air that is my daily driver (i.e., primary machine) and is doing even better.
I never EVER had a Windows work PC that made it through the full three year SDL depreciation period -- EVER.
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This may be a stupid no. 1 reason why I love my macbook air but the tracking pad is awesome.
When I've had windows laptops I've had to carry a damn mouse around because of how bad inbuilt pointers/trackers are on PC's.
So it's not just what's on the inside that counts when comparing ...
This is what won me over to Apple 5 years ago.
I expect it'll be what keeps me with Apple whenever my machine finally dies.
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And Macs easily last twice as long as PCs.
Respectfully, this is a phenomenally uninformed statement.
Well, we can only go on our personal experience.
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I feel it is unhealthy to make sweeping generalizations based on anecdotal evidence.
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Well, that comparison doesn't really work for computers. Streets won't become faster or more difficult to drive on with time. For a computer websites and everything else will require more power and modern software won't run on them which will affect security. A car from 20 years ago will perfectly run on todays streets, a 20 year old computer won't be able to show any modern website.
You keep doing this... Initially, you talked about the screen and the battery. Then in a response you added fan and logic board. Initially you spoke about five years you want to get out of your computer, now you are somehow extending this to 20 years. If you keep looking for excuses, you will find them, that is how rationalizing works. ;)
Figure out what you priorities are, look at the facts that support them, and then go and get the most efficient solution. Every 300€ you spend on your computer is 1€ in retirement payments. If a new Mac now is worth it to you giving up 6€/month or two days of food for life, then be it.
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I've had 3 notebook computers since 2003 and all have been Macs. All up they have cost me probably $7000 which as an annual cost I'm happy enough with, especially when I consider how many hours of use it gets every day. I expect to get a few more years out of my current one.
All my old computers still work too but technology has been moving too fast for them to remain useful for much. Maybe the 12" IBM Powerbook will become a collectors item one day?
Probably the biggest reason that I stick with Macs today is that my work uses windows and I really like that I have a completely different computer experience at home to at work.
I still remember the look on my dad's face the day we put his old $6000 (in 1989) desktop computer out on the street for garbage collection. There is a financial cost to the convenience of home computing for sure but as time has progressed it has at least gotten cheaper.
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I see your point. But if you consider that you spend like 50 Dollars per month for your Mac, is it still worth it for you? That just seems a lot of money to me.
OT: Just noticed my horrible spelling mistake in the titel. Is it possible to correct "deside" and put "decide"?
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In 2006 I spent $1200 on a nice brand new HP I ordered directly from HP. Within 2-3 years it was garbage. Power button quit working, had to open through the QuickTime key. Cd drive would eject at random times. Extended cell battery was garbage.
After that I purchased a base 13" MacBook pro for around $1100 in 2009. I still have that computer. I quit using it about a year and a half ago but it still worked. Battery was slowing down and touch pad was weak. Both fixed with a mouse and plugging in.
I am a bit biased after that experience. My work laptop has been going good for 1.5 years now and is a solid computer.
I now do all my computer stuff at work so haven't used a computer at home in a couple years. If I were to purchase one, it would probably be a Mac. I haven't had Internet for a couple years either (do so much with my phone) but I may get a Mac mini down the road.
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And Macs easily last twice as long as PCs.
Respectfully, this is a phenomenally uninformed statement.
Well, we can only go on our personal experience.
I have a 2009 MacBook Pro that sees usage every day and is doing just fine.
I have a 2011 MacBook Air that is my daily driver (i.e., primary machine) and is doing even better.
I never EVER had a Windows work PC that made it through the full three year SDL depreciation period -- EVER.
I have a 2011 Dell laptop and it was having a lot of problems, so I used iolo System Mechanic on it and now it's working like it's brand new again. I use this laptop for absolutely everything including almost all my entertainment, so it tends to be powered on and in use for at least ten hours a day. PCs can last a really long time as long as you maintain them properly.
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Hey there! I'm so undecisive right now! I've been a Mac user for the last 10 years and Macs have served me very well. However, ever since I "became a mustachian" one year ago it just hurts to pay so much money for a computer again even though I could pay it in cash with no problems! My last Mac just died and served me well for about 6 years. However, it cost me about 1700 Euros back then. That means that I spent like 25 Euros (I replaced battery and HDD too) every month for that Computer!
The problem so far is that I kind of need a computer right now, I've been trying other options instead of Macs for the last month and I'm just being unefficient, not because the other options don't work but because I can't decide what to buy now. I could get a cheap desktop Windows PC but then I think that I sometimes really want to be mobile. Also, Windows PCs tend to be quite loud and take up space, plus you lose time because of all that updating and virus stuff! I'm not experienced in Linux and need Microsoft Office otherwise I would just use an old PC with Linux.
However, if I want to be mobile Macs just are the best computers out there because they combine power with good battery life and great displays (retina). I also tested an Acer Chromebook but the display was just killing my eyes..
I'm just confused. I kind of think that I should probably be able to get the job done with whatever computer I can get as long as it has word and a keyboard. I don't know what to do.
Do you have any suggestions? I'm a student by the way, so I kind of rely on a god computer but don't earn money with it...
It's funny how clearly Macs are NOT mustachian, but there are still so many strong defenders of them on this forum.
They are an expensive luxury, and in most circumstances people get a much better value from an inexpensive PC.
This helps to illustrate how much people in THIS forum (of all places) are still slaves to consumerism.
That said, the purpose the whole lifestyle is not to live frugally, but to optimize quality of life. Every gets to pick and choose their battles, and perhaps for some people having a Mac as their expensive toy is the exception they make; that's definitely ok. You can be frugal and still have a Mac; that does not make Macs frugal.
Perhaps your exception if cable TV, or a car, or fancy restaurants, or lattes. You can't have it all though unless you want to give up on retiring early or have a huge income stream. But most people can probably afford a few luxuries and still retire pretty early.
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You should only spend your money on what YOU want if you meet MY string of long, intricate, arbitrary criteria.
Do what you like. It's your call.
That said, I spend my money on macbooks. I like them, a lot. The hardware is superior to most of the windows based laptops I have seen for comparable or less money. Most win based systems available for lower cost are vastly inferior. Crappy displays. Poor, chinzy I/O surfaces (keyboard, touchpad). Heavy. Cheap plastic. Etc. Etc.
Feature for feature you have to spend a bunch of money on a PC clone laptop to get the same quality and feel as a macbook. And at that point.. what's the point?
My company supplies engineers with two laptops; 15" macbook pros and a comparatively spec'ed "business class" machine from Lenovo or HP. The HP's actually cost 50% MORE than the MBPs. I think the Lenovos may be priced the same as the MBP. But neither stack up in terms of usability.
MacOS is also more usable in my opinion. I am a professional software type and vastly prefer a *nix command line interface. I find the file system simpler and more stable for my use. And the OS doesn't ship with any OEM bloatware crap installed on top of it.
I bought a win 8.1 based tablet / hyper-portable for travel last year. Total waste of my money. I should have bought a macbook air or something at 4x the cost. It is 100x the machine.
But in the end, buy whatcho want. This isn't a case where there is a single option that is way better on the bang/buck ratio than the rest. Anything priced less will be less. This is one of those times where you get what you pay for.
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I also find it strangely hypocritical (not necessarily directing this towards anyone here) how someone can say Apple only makes overpriced stuff (can get buy with cheaper) yet owns or rents 2-3x more house than they need. You'll never spend enough difference on computers to get back the opportunity costs lost by living in too much house. Then again, in general, these one-off costs aren't as critical as the destructive subscriptions most people benefit much more from cutting (Starbucks, clothes, restaurants, etc).
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I see your point. But if you consider that you spend like 50 Dollars per month for your Mac, is it still worth it for you? That just seems a lot of money to me.
I get that too.
I still splurge on more things than many here would themselves and my computer is certainly one of them. I am very much ok with $50 per month for what I get from it.
This is quite possibly just me rationalising, but as I always intend to keep a computer has my primary machine for 5+ years and because I'm familiar with the Mac, I'm confident that my purchase will meet my needs. I'd hate to buy something half the price, be disappointed and then feel like I have to live with it for at least a few years.
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It's funny how clearly Macs are NOT mustachian, but there are still so many strong defenders of them on this forum.
They are an expensive luxury, and in most circumstances people get a much better value from an inexpensive PC.
This helps to illustrate how much people in THIS forum (of all places) are still slaves to consumerism.
Slaves to consumerism? Really? Clearly not mustachian?
The incremental cost I have paid for my 5 year old 13" macbook pro vs a windows machine is nearly nothing. A former roommate and I have joked that his similarly used windows laptops cost nearly the same as mine since he's bought them about twice as often as I have. His has also been completely down for nearly two weeks total for repairs covered by warranty.
I used this machine full-time in graduate school for 2.5 years, in addition to about 2 years of personal usage. Probably a total number of hours I don't even want to consider. The amount I pay per hour more to have in my opinion a much superior product is next to nothing (if it has even cost me anything at all). I like using my 5-year old laptop. My work laptop (which cost as much as the 15" retina machines do currently) is not enjoyable to use, the hardware feels inferior and cheap, and the trackpad/display are worse. This machine still looks/feels solid and new, other than minor cosmetic damage.
A laptop is a tool. This tool has met my needs perfectly for the last 5 years. A similarly equipped Windows machine to have met my needs would have not cost the $400 or $500 that people seem to expect, but close to if not more than this one did.
I expect that there are a large number of people here who don't buy the absolute cheapest available tools, instead preferring something higher quality or more robust for the exact same reasons I bought this laptop. Likewise, most people here spend more on food than they could for again, similar reasons. Does preferring high(er) quality food make you a slave to consumerism?
Many people don't care about the things that make Mac computer valuable to others (such as myself) and competitive price wise. I care about the build quality, screen quality, trackpad/keyboard quality, quiet fan, backlit screen, multitouch functionality, and the operating system among other things. A lot of people don't. I am willing to "pay" for those things (I'm still not convinced that my laptop was more expensive than comparable Windows machines, which makes the "cost" even less over the last 5 years, but hey let's pretend). And that's fine, everyone has their own perspective on what makes something valuable. But the idea that because someone doesn't think something is valuable --> completely not having value to other people is an idea which seems to be much more amplified when it comes to Apple products.
When I look to buy a new computer I am going to look for that list of things I want in a computer. Those items matter to me. When I bought this machine, there were no comparable Windows laptops which were close to the value Apple provided. Perhaps it will not be the case that Apple laptops are the best value. I know of no other way I can impact as many hours of my life positively with $150/year as choosing a Mac vs Windows does.
And for what it's worth, I think iPhone/iPads are a huge waste of money compared to the plethora of Android devices available.
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Good comment. What I find funny is that some people are like "how can you get a Mac, it's so overpriced" and use a 700 Euro phone. Which does NOT increasy their productivity as much as a Mac does.
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It's funny how clearly Macs are NOT mustachian, but there are still so many strong defenders of them on this forum.
They are an expensive luxury, and in most circumstances people get a much better value from an inexpensive PC.
This helps to illustrate how much people in THIS forum (of all places) are still slaves to consumerism.
Slaves to consumerism? Really? Clearly not mustachian?
The incremental cost I have paid for my 5 year old 13" macbook pro vs a windows machine is nearly nothing. A former roommate and I have joked that his similarly used windows laptops cost nearly the same as mine since he's bought them about twice as often as I have. His has also been completely down for nearly two weeks total for repairs covered by warranty.
I used this machine full-time in graduate school for 2.5 years, in addition to about 2 years of personal usage. Probably a total number of hours I don't even want to consider. The amount I pay per hour more to have in my opinion a much superior product is next to nothing (if it has even cost me anything at all). I like using my 5-year old laptop. My work laptop (which cost as much as the 15" retina machines do currently) is not enjoyable to use, the hardware feels inferior and cheap, and the trackpad/display are worse. This machine still looks/feels solid and new, other than minor cosmetic damage.
A laptop is a tool. This tool has met my needs perfectly for the last 5 years. A similarly equipped Windows machine to have met my needs would have not cost the $400 or $500 that people seem to expect, but close to if not more than this one did.
I expect that there are a large number of people here who don't buy the absolute cheapest available tools, instead preferring something higher quality or more robust for the exact same reasons I bought this laptop. Likewise, most people here spend more on food than they could for again, similar reasons. Does preferring high(er) quality food make you a slave to consumerism?
Many people don't care about the things that make Mac computer valuable to others (such as myself) and competitive price wise. I care about the build quality, screen quality, trackpad/keyboard quality, quiet fan, backlit screen, multitouch functionality, and the operating system among other things. A lot of people don't. I am willing to "pay" for those things (I'm still not convinced that my laptop was more expensive than comparable Windows machines, which makes the "cost" even less over the last 5 years, but hey let's pretend). And that's fine, everyone has their own perspective on what makes something valuable. But the idea that because someone doesn't think something is valuable --> completely not having value to other people is an idea which seems to be much more amplified when it comes to Apple products.
When I look to buy a new computer I am going to look for that list of things I want in a computer. Those items matter to me. When I bought this machine, there were no comparable Windows laptops which were close to the value Apple provided. Perhaps it will not be the case that Apple laptops are the best value. I know of no other way I can impact as many hours of my life positively with $150/year as choosing a Mac vs Windows does.
And for what it's worth, I think iPhone/iPads are a huge waste of money compared to the plethora of Android devices available.
I don't know what to say, other than I and several others have not had so many problems with laptops; and often laptops that are far cheaper.
I think I incorrectly stated that Macs are a bad value; what I meant to communicate was that they are a good value, but an extravagant purchase. Similar to buying a fancy car when all that you need is something that is fuel efficient. They are a purchase that most people don't need, given their high cost. Similiarly, most people don't need a fancy PC that is equivalent (hardware wise) with a Mac.
In terms of people's PCs falling apart faster than Macs, forcing them to buy new ones... . I have observed it with people that are less computer savy. I wonder if this more has to do with the inability of the purchaser to choose the right PC for their needs, not junk it up with spam, etc... Perhaps Macs have an edge in that case, in that they are more user friendly (presumably, I don't use them). In that case, the more frugal thing to do is to get a little more educated and even just deal with the frustration.
I used a cheap dell for all of graduate school plus an additional year or so; at least 6 years. It was not until the last year that the performance became problematic... and at that point I was out of grad school and employed in places that gave me a work computer. The computer still worked well for all I did with it; surf the web and send emails. This dell handled all of the scientific software quite well; meanwhile everyone with a Mac was having compatibility problems since most if not all of the software is made for PCs. I know that these kinks are starting to be worked out, but it is only a recent advance.
I agree on the ipads/iphones part, for the same reasons listed above.
I may one day get one of these fancypants devices, perhaps in FIRE. But for now, I give up the luxury because my cheap laptop does quite well, lasts several years, and the money I saved goes straight into VTSAX where it will buy 3 Macs in the future.
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It's funny how clearly Macs are NOT mustachian, but there are still so many strong defenders of them on this forum.
They are an expensive luxury, and in most circumstances people get a much better value from an inexpensive PC.
This helps to illustrate how much people in THIS forum (of all places) are still slaves to consumerism.
Slaves to consumerism? Really? Clearly not mustachian?
The incremental cost I have paid for my 5 year old 13" macbook pro vs a windows machine is nearly nothing. A former roommate and I have joked that his similarly used windows laptops cost nearly the same as mine since he's bought them about twice as often as I have. His has also been completely down for nearly two weeks total for repairs covered by warranty.
I used this machine full-time in graduate school for 2.5 years, in addition to about 2 years of personal usage. Probably a total number of hours I don't even want to consider. The amount I pay per hour more to have in my opinion a much superior product is next to nothing (if it has even cost me anything at all). I like using my 5-year old laptop. My work laptop (which cost as much as the 15" retina machines do currently) is not enjoyable to use, the hardware feels inferior and cheap, and the trackpad/display are worse. This machine still looks/feels solid and new, other than minor cosmetic damage.
A laptop is a tool. This tool has met my needs perfectly for the last 5 years. A similarly equipped Windows machine to have met my needs would have not cost the $400 or $500 that people seem to expect, but close to if not more than this one did.
I expect that there are a large number of people here who don't buy the absolute cheapest available tools, instead preferring something higher quality or more robust for the exact same reasons I bought this laptop. Likewise, most people here spend more on food than they could for again, similar reasons. Does preferring high(er) quality food make you a slave to consumerism?
Many people don't care about the things that make Mac computer valuable to others (such as myself) and competitive price wise. I care about the build quality, screen quality, trackpad/keyboard quality, quiet fan, backlit screen, multitouch functionality, and the operating system among other things. A lot of people don't. I am willing to "pay" for those things (I'm still not convinced that my laptop was more expensive than comparable Windows machines, which makes the "cost" even less over the last 5 years, but hey let's pretend). And that's fine, everyone has their own perspective on what makes something valuable. But the idea that because someone doesn't think something is valuable --> completely not having value to other people is an idea which seems to be much more amplified when it comes to Apple products.
When I look to buy a new computer I am going to look for that list of things I want in a computer. Those items matter to me. When I bought this machine, there were no comparable Windows laptops which were close to the value Apple provided. Perhaps it will not be the case that Apple laptops are the best value. I know of no other way I can impact as many hours of my life positively with $150/year as choosing a Mac vs Windows does.
And for what it's worth, I think iPhone/iPads are a huge waste of money compared to the plethora of Android devices available.
I don't know what to say, other than I and several others have not had so many problems with laptops; and often laptops that are far cheaper.
I think I incorrectly stated that Macs are a bad value; what I meant to communicate was that they are a good value, but an extravagant purchase. Similar to buying a fancy car when all that you need is something that is fuel efficient. They are a purchase that most people don't need, given their high cost. Similiarly, most people don't need a fancy PC that is equivalent (hardware wise) with a Mac.
In terms of people's PCs falling apart faster than Macs, forcing them to buy new ones... . I have observed it with people that are less computer savy. I wonder if this more has to do with the inability of the purchaser to choose the right PC for their needs, not junk it up with spam, etc... Perhaps Macs have an edge in that case, in that they are more user friendly (presumably, I don't use them). In that case, the more frugal thing to do is to get a little more educated and even just deal with the frustration.
I used a cheap dell for all of graduate school plus an additional year or so; at least 6 years. It was not until the last year that the performance became problematic... and at that point I was out of grad school and employed in places that gave me a work computer. The computer still worked well for all I did with it; surf the web and send emails. This dell handled all of the scientific software quite well; meanwhile everyone with a Mac was having compatibility problems since most if not all of the software is made for PCs. I know that these kinks are starting to be worked out, but it is only a recent advance.
I agree on the ipads/iphones part, for the same reasons listed above.
I may one day get one of these fancypants devices, perhaps in FIRE. But for now, I give up the luxury because my cheap laptop does quite well, lasts several years, and the money I saved goes straight into VTSAX where it will buy 3 Macs in the future.
A lot depends how much a person makes as well. An extra $400 on a laptop spread out over 5 years is much different for a person who makes 50k vs 150k...
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I have a friend who only has used Macs, and to be fair, she's a musician and uses garageband, which is why she sticks with Macs.
I have used cheap Toshiba laptops, usually around $400 on sale.
Most of our other uses for our laptops are the same. We surf the web, send emails, watch videos. Both are equally easy to use for these purposes and work just as well.
Her Macs have suffered more breakage (assorted plastic pieces separating from the case). They have not lasted any longer than my Toshibas. The same is true for the Mac laptops my two adult musician kids have.
So my friend has spent THREE TIMES as much for laptops over the years than I have. She also spends three times as much for her iPhones. And she's poor, and doesn't realize how much more it's costing her to have the prestige of Apple products.
To me, the only reason to spend the extra money is if you need it for music or graphic processing, and I don't know but I'm pretty sure Apple no longer has an exclusive on those things.
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I buy all my Macs used. My latest MacBook Pro was $650 on eBay. I expect it to last me a few years.
There's almost no reason to pay new prices unless you're making a lot of money using the thing.
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I just bought a grade A, Dell Latitude refurb off lease. It's basically as new, I think they might've put a new battery in.
I have owned Macs. I liked my Mac Mini, a lot.
I would say þe $360 I spent on a really good business level laptop was worth it. It will easily last 5 years the way I take care of things.
I find OS X finnicky and harder to get things done with (keyboard shortcuts are lacking for some things). I would certainly not pay more for an Apple than a good Windows machine.
I wouldn't buy a consumer Dell, though, nor an Acer, and probably not HP. My wife has had a refurb Toshiba Satellite for 5 years now and, with an easily upgraded to SSD, it still chugs along well enough for what she does - including Illustrator and Photoshop.
Macs are like BMWs. If you want it/can afford it/choose to use your discretionary income on it, go for it. But please don't try to convince yourself or anyone else it isn't a luxury purchase.
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Slightly different perspective, I'm a Mac OS X and (more often) iOS developer. Outside of a Hackintosh, which is a viable (but unsupported) option, this is the only way to get my work done. For me, though, the conversion to Mac came first, then the income. I write off the computer and iPhone/iPad purchases, and they pay for themselves within a few hours/days of work. However, I don't upgrade frequently either. Just this last month I upgraded my 6 year old Macbook Pro and my 5 year old iPhone.
My transition from Linux and Windows to Mac only was mostly because of the elegance of the interface and the general enjoyment of using Mac OS X over the alternatives. I was a long time core developer with a relatively well known open source software, and primarily used Ubuntu and Debian in the past. There is simply an intangible but real enjoyment I get from using my Mac that I have never gotten on another OS. The "feel good" factor is obviously subjective, but it's also something which is impossible to evaluate objectively.
If I get a lot more enjoyment on a daily basis for the price premium, not to mention the purchase allowing to make way, way more money than I was ever able to on another OS, the cost is both objectively and subjectively worth it to me.
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lol...I thought this post was about buying Big Mac's...which I no longer buy, but I do make the big mac sauce occasionally at home
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lol...I thought this post was about buying Big Mac's...which I no longer buy, but I do make the big mac sauce occasionally at home
This is EASILY the best comment of the thread.
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Slightly different perspective, I'm a Mac OS X and (more often) iOS developer. Outside of a Hackintosh, which is a viable (but unsupported) option, this is the only way to get my work done. For me, though, the conversion to Mac came first, then the income. I write off the computer and iPhone/iPad purchases, and they pay for themselves within a few hours/days of work. However, I don't upgrade frequently either. Just this last month I upgraded my 6 year old Macbook Pro and my 5 year old iPhone.
My transition from Linux and Windows to Mac only was mostly because of the elegance of the interface and the general enjoyment of using Mac OS X over the alternatives. I was a long time core developer with a relatively well known open source software, and primarily used Ubuntu and Debian in the past. There is simply an intangible but real enjoyment I get from using my Mac that I have never gotten on another OS. The "feel good" factor is obviously subjective, but it's also something which is impossible to evaluate objectively.
If I get a lot more enjoyment on a daily basis for the price premium, not to mention the purchase allowing to make way, way more money than I was ever able to on another OS, the cost is both objectively and subjectively worth it to me.
If you make serious money from a tool, of course it is worth paying for. It's just like having a truck to haul stone or straw or whatever.
I can't say I've noticed OS X being much more elegant... depends if you're more a keyboard or mouse person I guess. But after years of Linux, it's hardly surprising OS X, based on Unix, feels more at home. It's like Linux but polished. And if you're a dev, no doubt you can get to the guts via Terminal no problem, write Bash scripts to do things, etc.
Finder, at least last time I saw it, was fairly shit. The Dock is fairly shit. That the keychain loses info now and again... That you have to repair permissions every so often...
Bleh.
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That's true! I've seend a lot of professional programmers who use Macbook Pros (15"). I think that if you (have to) spend lots of time with your computer it's worth it to get a Mac because tiny details matter then.
However, if you don't earn money with your computer it might be better to get the crappiest desktop pc (as noisy as possible). That will probably make you spend less time in front of your computer and do healthier stuff (cooking, exercise, socialize, read books, ...). I think I've read this idea in one of the MMM posts as well, I think it was "getting your brain back".
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Id recommend looking into getting a early unibody macbook pro model (say 2009-2011) which will be heavily discounted over a newer model as several posters have already mentioned. Then do a swap to an SSD (~$80 for 256GB).
I just did that on my mid-2009 MBP which i was considering replacing since it was getting awfully slow. Imagine my surprise when it improved speed by at least 200-300%! Its like having a brand new MBP for $80. IMO, its worth looking into for getting the mac quality and experience without the insane entry price.
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Id recommend looking into getting a early unibody macbook pro model (say 2009-2011) which will be heavily discounted over a newer model as several posters have already mentioned. Then do a swap to an SSD (~$80 for 256GB).
I just did that on my mid-2009 MBP which i was considering replacing since it was getting awfully slow. Imagine my surprise when it improved speed by at least 200-300%! Its like having a brand new MBP for $80. IMO, its worth looking into for getting the mac quality and experience without the insane entry price.
Also fixing permissions. I was gobsmacked at how slowly my MIL's laptop was going... rebooted into whatever mode it is, fixed a bunch of permission mismatches and it ran like new.
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And Macs easily last twice as long as PCs.
Respectfully, this is a phenomenally uninformed statement.
Well, we can only go on our personal experience.
I have a 2009 MacBook Pro that sees usage every day and is doing just fine.
I have a 2011 MacBook Air that is my daily driver (i.e., primary machine) and is doing even better.
I never EVER had a Windows work PC that made it through the full three year SDL depreciation period -- EVER.
I'm posting this from a Thinkpad T510 purchased in 2010.. I don't see myself replacing it for another 3 years at least. It runs windows 7 and works just fine. Daily usage. It will need a new hard drive at some point (SSD probably) and it is a bit beat up (it was my college laptop) but a mac would be in a similar situation.
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And Macs easily last twice as long as PCs.
Respectfully, this is a phenomenally uninformed statement.
Well, we can only go on our personal experience.
...
I feel it is unhealthy to make sweeping generalizations based on anecdotal evidence.
But I only related my personal experience. I don't recall making any generalizations.
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It's funny how clearly Macs are NOT mustachian, but there are still so many strong defenders of them on this forum.
They are an expensive luxury, and in most circumstances people get a much better value from an inexpensive PC.
This helps to illustrate how much people in THIS forum (of all places) are still slaves to consumerism.
Slaves to consumerism? Really? Clearly not mustachian?
The incremental cost I have paid for my 5 year old 13" macbook pro vs a windows machine is nearly nothing. A former roommate and I have joked that his similarly used windows laptops cost nearly the same as mine since he's bought them about twice as often as I have. His has also been completely down for nearly two weeks total for repairs covered by warranty.
I used this machine full-time in graduate school for 2.5 years, in addition to about 2 years of personal usage. Probably a total number of hours I don't even want to consider. The amount I pay per hour more to have in my opinion a much superior product is next to nothing (if it has even cost me anything at all). I like using my 5-year old laptop. My work laptop (which cost as much as the 15" retina machines do currently) is not enjoyable to use, the hardware feels inferior and cheap, and the trackpad/display are worse. This machine still looks/feels solid and new, other than minor cosmetic damage.
A laptop is a tool. This tool has met my needs perfectly for the last 5 years. A similarly equipped Windows machine to have met my needs would have not cost the $400 or $500 that people seem to expect, but close to if not more than this one did.
I expect that there are a large number of people here who don't buy the absolute cheapest available tools, instead preferring something higher quality or more robust for the exact same reasons I bought this laptop. Likewise, most people here spend more on food than they could for again, similar reasons. Does preferring high(er) quality food make you a slave to consumerism?
Many people don't care about the things that make Mac computer valuable to others (such as myself) and competitive price wise. I care about the build quality, screen quality, trackpad/keyboard quality, quiet fan, backlit screen, multitouch functionality, and the operating system among other things. A lot of people don't. I am willing to "pay" for those things (I'm still not convinced that my laptop was more expensive than comparable Windows machines, which makes the "cost" even less over the last 5 years, but hey let's pretend). And that's fine, everyone has their own perspective on what makes something valuable. But the idea that because someone doesn't think something is valuable --> completely not having value to other people is an idea which seems to be much more amplified when it comes to Apple products.
When I look to buy a new computer I am going to look for that list of things I want in a computer. Those items matter to me. When I bought this machine, there were no comparable Windows laptops which were close to the value Apple provided. Perhaps it will not be the case that Apple laptops are the best value. I know of no other way I can impact as many hours of my life positively with $150/year as choosing a Mac vs Windows does.
And for what it's worth, I think iPhone/iPads are a huge waste of money compared to the plethora of Android devices available.
+1
First of all, I don't put much stock in what/who is or is not mustachian. It's all relative. Secondly, in my case, I'm coming up on four years' ownership of my newest Mac, which gets heavy use for many hours every day, and is in fine shape. That's pretty good.
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Macs last a long time, and maybe longer than an average PC, but PCs can last longer. The advantage of macs is that they are relatively high-end hardware when they are new, so there's not much planned obsolescence built in. The disadvantage is that they are not supported as long as Windows.
My parents had a 2003 Dell workstation that they retired last year (replaced with a late 2008 Macbook Pro). It came with Windows XP, and they got rid of it shortly after XP was no longer supported for various reasons, not just the lack of updates. It was top of the line in 2003, and the equivalent mac would have been a Power Mac G5. I never had a PowerPC Mac, so I don't know for sure, but I get the impression that support for them was phased out a while ago after the switch to Intel, and no one is compiling dual binary software any more.
I am typing this on an early 2008 Macbook Pro (pre-unibody, best Macbook Pro they ever made IMO). I'm still running 10.6.8, and I've read bad things about putting any newer OS on this model. But 10.6.8 is no longer supported, and a lot of new software won't run on it. I don't need to run a lot of software, but at some point something I need will no longer work. Or maybe I'll get frustrated with the slowness. The old Core 2 Duo is a bit slow at processing photos, and sometimes it runs out of RAM (maxed out at 6GB).
An equivalent Windows mobile workstation, such as a Dell Precision from 2008 would have come with XP or Vista. I would have run XP, but it would have been designed for Vista. Anything that can run Vista can run Windows 7 just as well, so I would be running Windows 7 right now if I had the PC equivalent, and Windows 7 is still supported just fine because windows 8 isn't that good.
I also have a desktop PC that I built. It's hard to say when it's from because it's a mix of parts. I got a Core 2 Quad LGA775 processor, DDR2 RAM, and compatible motherboard as that technology was being phased out in 2009. I got a great deal on all the parts, but it's more like high end 2006 technology or mid range 2009 technology. I upgraded the GPU at some point, and it happily runs Windows 7. I think I spent around $1000. The equivalent system at the time was probably a Mac Mini, but those are not upgradeable, so it would be nearly obsolete now.
Longevity aside, I prefer Macs over PCs because I can work more efficiently on them (or at least the old ones. With recent updates it seems like they've been making things inconsistent, which is frustrating. I can't think of any specific examples right now). With my PC I'm often fighting the OS to get it to do what I want. For example, my desktop has a bad case of insomnia. I put it to sleep (even hibernate), and it randomly wakes up, which in turn wakes me up in the middle of the night. I've disabled literally everything I can think of that might wake it up, and I've checked the logs when it wakes up and there's no sign of the cause. I disabled scheduled tasks and services, Wake on LAN, the ability for any hardware device to wake it up, the ability for the mouse and keyboard to wake it up, etc. The only sure way to keep it off is to shutdown, but that's annoying because I have to close everything.
I'd love to replace this Macbook Pro and my desktop PC with a new Mac, but I can't justify the price. As long as these still work, I don't need anything else yet, so I'll wait. I think I'll hold out for the next update to the retina iMac, or longer.
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Two options for PCs:
http://blog.laptopmag.com/asus-ux305-vs-macbook
http://www.laptopmag.com/reviews/laptops/asus-zenbook-ux305
http://www.techradar.com/us/reviews/pc-mac/laptops-portable-pcs/laptops-and-netbooks/dell-xps-13-2015-1279013/review
A refurbished Mac book air for 700-800 USD isn't a bad option either. Though I'm not sure what your costs are in EU.
Nonetheless you can find a quality pc ultrabook. I think you may be able to find an affordable refurbished macbook air as well.
Windows laptops will certainly offer more value.
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Well, that comparison doesn't really work for computers. Streets won't become faster or more difficult to drive on with time.
Streets around here get slower and more difficult to drive on ...
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http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/specialdeals/mac
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I always think that a mac or any apple product, is worth it in the long run.
I have gone in and out of the eco-system many times over the years but I always look forward to returning to apple products, regardless of the price.
They just work.
Seriously? That sounds like the kind of RATIONALIZATION people use to OVERPAY for Mercedes, Prada, or (insert name of overpriced "Prestige" brand here).
Look, if you want to impress your friends, buy Mercedes, Apple, Prada.
If you just want to get the job done for a reasonable price, and are not trying to impress your friends and relatives, DO NOT BUY Mercedes/Apple/Prada.
Yeah, that $2,000 MacBook Pro "just works."
But so does that $249 laptop from Dell or whatever.
I was an Apple user in the '80s, been a PC guy ever since. I no longer see the need to overpay to be "cool." Or maybe I'd just rather be a multimillionaire than be "cool."
This message typed on a 7-year old Dell notebook that cost me $399 in late 2007. It'll probably still be going strong 3 years from now.
Works just fine. Nothing fancy, just chugs along.
Can someone explain to me why I need a $2,000+ "iwhateverthehell"?
And yeah, I realize, I'm not "iCool." I'll just have to learn to live with it, lol.
Look, if you want a "hey, look at me, I'm iCool" machine, go ahead and by the Iwhateverthehell from Apple. But just realize it's a vanity choice, not a practical choice.
My wife drives a Beemer. It's a "hey, look at me, my car is cooler than yours" car. Cars are her non-frugal weak spot. We both realize it, and that's okay- no one is perfect :) .
She doesn't bull sh*t herself into believing it's the "practical" choice. Just don't lie to yourself and tell yourself that you "need" the Apple/Beemer/Prada, because you DO NOT.
The less flashy brands will do just fine, for far less money.
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I always think that a mac or any apple product, is worth it in the long run.
I have gone in and out of the eco-system many times over the years but I always look forward to returning to apple products, regardless of the price.
They just work.
Seriously? That sounds like the kind of RATIONALIZATION people use to OVERPAY for Mercedes, Prada, or (insert name of overpriced "Prestige" brand here).
Look, if you want to impress your friends, buy Mercedes, Apple, Prada.
If you just want to get the job done for a reasonable price, and are not trying to impress your friends and relatives, DO NOT BUY Mercedes/Apple/Prada.
Yeah, that $2,000 MacBook Pro "just works."
But so does that $249 laptop from Dell or whatever.
I was an Apple user in the '80s, been a PC guy ever since. I no longer see the need to overpay to be "cool." Or maybe I'd just rather be a multimillionaire than be "cool."
This message typed on a 7-year old Dell notebook that cost me $399 in late 2007. It'll probably still be going strong 3 years from now.
Works just fine. Nothing fancy, just chugs along.
Can someone explain to me why I need a $2,000+ "iwhateverthehell"?
And yeah, I realize, I'm not "iCool." I'll just have to learn to live with it, lol.
Look, if you want a "hey, look at me, I'm iCool" machine, go ahead and by the Iwhateverthehell from Apple. But just realize it's a vanity choice, not a practical choice.
My wife drives a Beemer. It's a "hey, look at me, my car is cooler than yours" car. Cars are her non-frugal weak spot. We both realize it, and that's okay- no one is perfect :) .
She doesn't bull sh*t herself into believing it's the "practical" choice. Just don't lie to yourself and tell yourself that you "need" the Apple/Beemer/Prada, because you DO NOT.
The less flashy brands will do just fine, for far less money.
There certainly are less flashy brands that will offer similar performance for less money.
On the PC side I believe apple makes some of the best laptops. The build quality, weight/size, and screen quality/resolution are excellent. As is the customer service. If something goes wrong with your PC you can take into a store and have it diagnosed/repaired instead of sent off in the mail. Their phone/remote support is excellent as well. I've had a few remote sessions myself.
With that said if you're just typing and web surfing, almost any laptop will do. So the question is what are your needs? How much performance do you need? How mobile will you be with the laptop? Do you prefer a larger screen or a smaller screen?
Usually you can find a windows equivalent at a lower price. Sometimes they're closer in price more than you'd think.
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I just bought a $258 Acer laptop for my mom since she's retiring and losing her work lappie. Windows 8.1, pretty boring stats (quad core, 4 GB ram, non-ssd HD of 0.5 or 1 TB). Perfect if all you do is surf the web, watch youtube, netflix, basic word processing, online billpay, facebook, etc (in other words, what my mom uses it for). Beautiful display, 7 hr battery life, keyboard feels very sturdy and responsive. I was honestly surprised at how awesome this little computer was.
I'll also mention that I was interviewed on a video podcast yesterday. I used my off the shelf el cheapo Dell laptop for the video and stock speakers and mic. The interviewer said my audio sounded amazing and assumed I had a professional studio with high quality mic and windscreen. Nope, just a $220 basic laptop with stock components.
Moral: You get a lot in the sub $300 laptop market these days. The one thing I haven't seen is an ultralight ultracheap laptop. My mom's new laptop and my two relatively new laptops weigh between 4.75 and 5 lb (2-2.25 kg). Not a big deal unless you're on the go constantly. In that case, ditch the full size screen and go with something closer to 13" for a ~3 lb machine (for which you will pay more).
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I understand you're trying to talk yourself into a Mac, but let me try to talk you out of it.
1) For the same specs, you're paying 75% too much. Most people don't compare apples to apples, so they think the Mac performs better, but it doesn't when compared to like machines.
2) Unless you're going into a graphic design/architecture type field, your Mac runs a high risk of not being compatible.
3) There are viruses that affect Macs and PCs and if you're smart, you'll have anti virus software either way.
4) The screens on some of the new laptops (IPS) can actually be higher resolution than a Mac laptop.
5) Every PC laptop I've had has lasted over 5 years and many have lasted much longer.
6) Replacement batteries for a PC are CHEAP and easy to do yourself.
7) Any replacement part is cheaper for a PC and most can be done yourself if you're technically inclined.
The only thing redeeming about the Mac is the resale value, but like you said, you're getting away from consumerism, so you should be looking to use it for it's entire useable life if possible.
Just make sure you get a laptop with a Synaptics touchpad and an IPS screen and you'll be just as happy and have way more money left. Also, if you don't already, check out slickdeals.net to see if there are any current deals out there.
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Can someone point me to a laptop that stacks up against this :
Refurbished 13.3-inch MacBook Pro 2.5GHz Dual-core Intel i5
Originally released June 2012
13.3-inch (diagonal) LED-backlit glossy widescreen display, 1280-by-800 resolution
4GB (2 x 2GB) of 1600MHz DDR3 SDRAM
500GB Serial ATA @ 5400 rpm1
8x double-layer SuperDrive (DVD±R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)
Intel HD Graphics 4000
Refurb'ed price is $829 shipped to my door.
What can I get from the PC world that stacks up?
Must be well built and sturdy like the aluminum MBP.
Must have a robust power and peripheral input setup like the Mac mag-safe.
Must have USB3 like the MBP.
Must have a reasonably crisp, high-res display like the MPB.
Must have a sturdy, usable keyboard and pointing surface.
Beat this. Show me the err of my ways. We'll ignore the pain in the ass that Windows 8.whatever is these days and talk strictly hardware. Show me a well built clone laptop that I can get for under $8-900.
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Can someone point me to a laptop that stacks up against this :
Refurbished 13.3-inch MacBook Pro 2.5GHz Dual-core Intel i5
Originally released June 2012
13.3-inch (diagonal) LED-backlit glossy widescreen display, 1280-by-800 resolution
4GB (2 x 2GB) of 1600MHz DDR3 SDRAM
500GB Serial ATA @ 5400 rpm1
8x double-layer SuperDrive (DVD±R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)
Intel HD Graphics 4000
Refurb'ed price is $829 shipped to my door.
What can I get from the PC world that stacks up?
Must be well built and sturdy like the aluminum MBP.
Must have a robust power and peripheral input setup like the Mac mag-safe.
Must have USB3 like the MBP.
Must have a reasonably crisp, high-res display like the MPB.
Must have a sturdy, usable keyboard and pointing surface.
Beat this. Show me the err of my ways. We'll ignore the pain in the ass that Windows 8.whatever is these days and talk strictly hardware. Show me a well built clone laptop that I can get for under $8-900.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00SGS7ZH4/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_1?pf_rd_p=1944687602&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B00RY4X8A4&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=12AV208T69TM3A03934N
http://www.dell.com/us/p/xps-13-9343-laptop/pd
To be honest, both are better options than the standard 13 macbook pro in terms of portability/weight/height. They also have SSDs which blow away HDDs in performance.
http://store.apple.com/us/product/GD760LL/B/refurbished-macbook-air-14ghz-dual-core-intel-core-i5
- That macbook air for $759 is hard to beat and is a better option than all of the above (unless you need the 8gb of ram and more storage space).
With that said your point is noted. It is difficult to find an ultrabook type computer (alumininum construction, light weight, sturdy/well built, SSD) for less than 700.
You can find a funcitonal laptop, but there is something to be said about a $700-$1000 laptop vs a $300-$500 laptop.
I think in the 700-1200 range, if you're considering refurbished, windows laptops aren't necessarily a better value.
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Beat this. Show me the err of my ways.
I'll play.
Lenovo Thinkpad T420, refurbished (http://www.ebay.com/itm/351352763217) (Arrow Direct) plus a used USB3.0 Thinkpad Mini Dock (433715U). Approximately $350 for everything. Nigh indestructible, built like a tank. Twice the RAM, and it only falls short on the USB 3.0 front on the portable end only (not a huge deal), but gets in compensation a fantastic dock that converts the laptop into a full-fledged desktop just by dropping it in, and the HDD is a bit smaller at 320GB... but for an extra $265, you could dump in a 512GB Samsung 850 Pro SSD which is trivial to do with a Thinkpad (you can't even use a third party SSD with TRIM support enabled under OSX 10.9+ without breaking critical OS security). Could easily do the full shebang for under $650, and it'd absolutely decimate that Macbook's performance for $200 less.
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You can find a funcitonal laptop, but there is something to be said about a $700-$1000 laptop vs a $300-$500 laptop.
I think in the 700-1200 range, if you're considering refurbished, windows laptops aren't necessarily a better value.
Overall I agree entirely. Apple's refurb store is usually my first and last stop when shopping. If they don't have what I'm after available refurb, I usually hold off buying anything.
But I'm really impressed with what you linked. The Asus gives me pause. I bought an Asus hyper portable/tablet and it is complete junk. The touch and control surfaces are so unspeakably horrible. I would want to touch and feel one. But that's a damned good answer you posted. Well done.
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Beat this. Show me the err of my ways.
I'll play.
Lenovo Thinkpad T420, refurbished (http://www.ebay.com/itm/351352763217) (Arrow Direct) plus a used USB3.0 Thinkpad Mini Dock (433715U). Approximately $350 for everything. Nigh indestructible, built like a tank. Twice the RAM, and it only falls short on the USB 3.0 front on the portable end only (not a huge deal), but gets in compensation a fantastic dock that converts the laptop into a full-fledged desktop just by dropping it in, and the HDD is a bit smaller at 320GB... but for an extra $265, you could dump in a 512GB Samsung 850 Pro SSD which is trivial to do with a Thinkpad (you can't even use a third party SSD with TRIM support enabled under OSX 10.9+ without breaking critical OS security). Could easily do the full shebang for under $650, and it'd absolutely decimate that Macbook's performance for $200 less.
Thinkpad loses for me based on pointing/tracking device which was a must have by the poster.
Last thinkpad I had was horrible although this may have improved. I travel a lot so it's a biggie for me and don't want to have to carry a mouse around.
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Thinkpad loses for me based on pointing/tracking device which was a must have by the poster.
Last thinkpad I had was horrible although this may have improved. I travel a lot so it's a biggie for me and don't want to have to carry a mouse around.
The T420 has both the trackstick and an excellent Synaptics trackpad. Win/win.
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Thinkpad loses for me based on pointing/tracking device which was a must have by the poster.
Last thinkpad I had was horrible although this may have improved. I travel a lot so it's a biggie for me and don't want to have to carry a mouse around.
The T420 has both the trackstick and an excellent Synaptics trackpad. Win/win.
As the IT guy put it when he handed me a T430 . . .
"Stroke the box until your finger gets tired and then finish off your work on the little red nub."
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I'm kinda in the same boat, or will be in the next few years.
I'm currently typing on a mid 2007 macbook (the black one, not a pro) that I received new as a gift when I finished my master's degree almost 8 years ago. I've upgraded the RAM since then, and late last year I put in a solid state hard drive, and I fully expect this machine to last me another 3 years. That said, when she finally goes, I probably want another mac.
My only question is new or used. Used makes more sense to me, but I got a *lot* out of the 3 year apple care on this machine. My motherboard burned out, and my hard drive failed (might've been my fault, from a drop), both within the warranty period, so the apple care paid for itself. No computer is buy it for life, but I'm pretty happy with the cult of mac for quality of product and service getting repairs, and I'm pretty hard on my stuff. I went through 3 computers in 4 years before this machine.
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I use Apple products for my business for one reason only -- they are consistently more reliable and have less downtime than comparable Windows machines. I don't have to scan everyday for viruses, spyware and adware. I just start it up and work.
Every person I know who uses a Windows machine is always complaining about having to deal with viruses, the blue screen of death, etc. If I multiplied my billable rate by the amount of time I would spend fiddling with a Windows machine to keep it working, the cost of that lost productivity would more than overwhelm any savings I might have by buying the cheaper computer.
That said, Apple products aren't inherently immune to all the woes of Windows machines -- it's just that their market share is small enough that they don't seem to interest the hacking community. But that could change and Apple might lose that edge.
But until that happens, I'm sticking with Apple.
Yeah, it hurts to pay twice the cost, but again, I figure I get it back in productivity.
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2) Unless you're going into a graphic design/architecture type field, your Mac runs a high risk of not being compatible.
3) There are viruses that affect Macs and PCs and if you're smart, you'll have anti virus software either way.
2. Most people only need web browsing and some other basic software these days, and the amount of mac software has increased as they've gained market share in the past few years. I have numerous ways (VMWare Fusion, Wine, Bootcamp, remote into a Windows PC) to run Windows stuff on my mac, but I rarely have to any more. Last time I did was to use the scan tool software for my car, but most people don't need that.
3. If you're smart you don't need antivirus software on either. I don't use it on my PC any more, not even the free Microsoft Security Essentials. It was slowing it down too much. I'm careful about what I download and what sites I go to, and if I get bad luck I guess I'll just reinstall the OS. I don't mind taking the risk.
I wasted an hour on my work computer today updating it and waiting for it to reboot. My mac is no longer supported, so there are no more updates! But even when there were, they were generally quick to install. I don't use my PC at home as much as my mac, but every time I do it needs updates. There are other frustrating things, for example today Excel got lost on the invisible third monitor (I only have two monitors). I quit and opened a new spreadsheet several times, but eventually I had to change the screen resolution to bring it back. I can't think of a time when I've had a similar problem on my mac. My work PC gets sluggish after a while from having too many things open. I think the Aero interface gets clogged up somewhere, and I end up having to reboot. I can often go months on my mac without rebooting, though after a while it does help clean up after programs that leak memory. The weekly required virus scans slow down my work PC significantly, and they will never find anything. Over a year these things add up to measurable time, and unmeasurable frustration.
I've used Windows and Mac extensively, but I can work more efficiently on macs.
Macs are high-end hardware sold at a premium, with a premium OS. PCs are available on a wide range of hardware, and sometimes the low-end models give them a bad name. The OS is OK, but not the best. Instead of refining Windows 7 and improving it, they add unnecessary junk in Windows 8. I guess Apple is doing that too, but I've skipped everything after 10.6.8 just like I've skipped everything after Windows 7. Maybe Windows 10 will be better.
An example of a frustrating feature of Windows 7 is the control panel. I grew up with Windows 98 through Windows XP, and the windows XP control panel buttons are burned in my memory. Add/remove programs, Printers and Faxes, and Device Manager are some of the common ones. In Windows 7 there's Device Manager and Devices and Printers. The difference is not clear, and there's too much stuff going on in the icons for them to be useful. Plus, if I try to use the search bar to get to one of them quickly, I have to type "Devices..." or "Device M..." to get the right one. On a Mac, the first three letters of all the system control boxes are unique, and in fact the first two letters of all the built-in ones are unique, at least on mine. And, while the icons are not the most useful, most of them have different visual content, so it's easy remember the one you want and find it at a glance. The Windows ones are all round glassy silver with a lot of stuff going on. Why do Folder Options and Default Location have check boxes in the icon, and Administrative Tools has two!? None of the other ones have it, even though these are all options. Date and Time, Recovery, and Regional and Language options all have clocks, and they are all set to three o'clock. Why? On a mac, Date & Time and Time Machine both have clocks, but the Time Machine icon is much different (and set for four or five o'clock). On a mac you can type approximately what you want on the system control window search bar, and it highlights relevant buttons. With Windows you have to know exactly what it's called. For example, on a mac you can type power and it highlights Energy Saver. It's little details like that which make a mac less frustrating to use for me.
Edit: Forgot to add that the icons in the Windows control panel may be in a different place depending on the size of the window. The only way to get an alphabetical list is to make the window tall and really narrow. The mac system control doesn't let you resize it, so they are always in the same place.
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I just bought my wife a Macbook Pro for her programming hobby. Refurbished, and with the education discount.
Paid 1000 bucks for around 600-700 bucks worth of PC, but with a better screen and PCIe storage. Also the knowledge that all components are of high quality backed by a great warranty.
Pricey, and certainly a luxury. Hardly a ripoff though.
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Beat this. Show me the err of my ways.
I'll play.
Lenovo Thinkpad T420, refurbished (http://www.ebay.com/itm/351352763217) (Arrow Direct) plus a used USB3.0 Thinkpad Mini Dock (433715U). Approximately $350 for everything. Nigh indestructible, built like a tank. Twice the RAM, and it only falls short on the USB 3.0 front on the portable end only (not a huge deal), but gets in compensation a fantastic dock that converts the laptop into a full-fledged desktop just by dropping it in, and the HDD is a bit smaller at 320GB... but for an extra $265, you could dump in a 512GB Samsung 850 Pro SSD which is trivial to do with a Thinkpad (you can't even use a third party SSD with TRIM support enabled under OSX 10.9+ without breaking critical OS security). Could easily do the full shebang for under $650, and it'd absolutely decimate that Macbook's performance for $200 less.
I wouldn't say the T420 would decimate an Air performance wise. A new 13.3 Air with the i5-4350U is slightly better than the i5-2520M on passmark, and an HD5000 is more or less twice the HD3000.
The Thinkpad would have double the ram and four time the storage with a 512GB SSD, so anything that requires a lot of onboard storage or usage of swap/pagefile would be better there (Although the Air apparently has better 4k-64 reads/writes for some reason http://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-MacBook-Air-13-MD761D-B-2014-06-Notebook-Review-Update.119805.0.html).
On the other hand, the T420 is twice the size, and with an older battery, it probably won't go much above ~3 hours versus 10+ from a new Air. The Air tends to be more aesthetically appealing to people, and in general Apple does a good job tuning OSX compared to windows.
All told, it depends on what someone wants, but I don't see a clear winner comparing a refurb T420 with a 512GB SSD for $650 to a new MB Air for $680.
http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/expired-deals/1432171/
Not to say there aren't plenty of Apple products that aren't crazy expensive and not really worthwhile. But that's not always the case.
Shoot, if I were to spend $650 on computer hardware, I'd go with a refurb HP 14" chromebook ($180) with a 128GB SSD ($65) for my laptop, and build an AMD desktop ($25 80+ PSU, $20 case, $120 FX-8320E proc/mobo, $30 128GB SSD, $60 1TB HD, and 8GB of ram ($55)) for all the heavy lifting.
The chromebook would have better mobility than the T420 and the desktop would be ~3x faster than those 2 laptops. All with ~$60-$100 left in my pocket, plus the option to upgrade my desktop ~5 years down the road and being able to reuse at least some of the components. But that's just me... YMMV and all that. ;)
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Another option:
http://www.officedepot.com/a/products/665236/Dell-XPS-11-XPS18-9091CFB-2/
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I had been totally indifferent to Macs a long time. But since I started working as a iOS developer recently, I discovered that the Macbooks are extremely well designed machines (IMHO)!! I am regularly employed, so I have a brandnew Macbook Pro at work, which I do not use at home.
So being in the same dilemma as you, I bought myself a used 4 year old Macbook (without the pro) which is in very good shape. It was rather slow, so I bought a 250GB SSD drive. Now the machine runs really fast and I am having a great time using it.
It does have quite little RAM, so I will eventually upgrade that, too. But right now, I do not notice that in everyday use, so I am not in a hurry. I can buy the RAM used from people who upgraded their own laptops quite cheap.
The Macbook cost me 500 € and I intend to use it for the next 2-3 years, maybe 4, reselling it later should be possible. :)
(changing the parts is very easy, you can look everything up on the ifixit website, however I did have some experience like assembling my own desktop machines, etc.)
Hope this helps!!
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All told, it depends on what someone wants, but I don't see a clear winner comparing a refurb T420 with a 512GB SSD for $650 to a new MB Air for $680.
Sorry Darin, but you're literally comparing Apples to oranges. The challenge was as follows:
Can someone point me to a laptop that stacks up against this :
Refurbished 13.3-inch MacBook Pro 2.5GHz Dual-core Intel i5
Originally released June 2012
13.3-inch (diagonal) LED-backlit glossy widescreen display, 1280-by-800 resolution
4GB (2 x 2GB) of 1600MHz DDR3 SDRAM
500GB Serial ATA @ 5400 rpm1
8x double-layer SuperDrive (DVD±R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)
Intel HD Graphics 4000
Refurb'ed price is $829 shipped to my door.
What can I get from the PC world that stacks up?
Must be well built and sturdy like the aluminum MBP.
Must have a robust power and peripheral input setup like the Mac mag-safe.
Must have USB3 like the MBP.
Must have a reasonably crisp, high-res display like the MPB.
Must have a sturdy, usable keyboard and pointing surface.
...also, your "brand new" Air for $680 is not a deal you can consistently pick up, and is normally $900. Refurbed Thinkpads are everywhere at the price listed.
On the other hand, the T420 is twice the size, and with an older battery, it probably won't go much above ~3 hours versus 10+ from a new Air.
At least the end user can actually replace the Lenovo battery themselves (or any other failed component) without spending an arm and a leg.
Thanks for playing anyway.
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Haha! IP, you're one ornery SOB! :D
The Air is $770 right now instead of $680, but sooner or later BB will drop the price by $100 again and it'll be $680. 77 also didn't ask to have to available this very second, they just were asking if anything in the PC world stacks up.
There are options that do, but they aren't as clear cut as you're making them out to be, which is my point.
A $680 Air is good for some people, a $645 thinkpad good for others, and I love my $245 dual (soon to be triple hopefully) booting chromebook.
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At least the end user can actually replace the Lenovo battery themselves (or any other failed component) without spending an arm and a leg.
Thanks for playing anyway.
I'm surprised the DIY folks here at MMM aren't all about the cost of maintaining/upgrading/replacing stuff. I've replaced so many things for myself and others on plain jane PC laptops. $40 for a new LED/LCD panel (kid smashed it by closing it on a mouse), $7 power supplies, cheap ram, cheap HDDs or SSDs, $12 keyboards, cheap batteries, etc. Instead of "bring it in to the Apple store and it'll be $199 for that".
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At least the end user can actually replace the Lenovo battery themselves (or any other failed component) without spending an arm and a leg.
Thanks for playing anyway.
I'm surprised the DIY folks here at MMM aren't all about the cost of maintaining/upgrading/replacing stuff. I've replaced so many things for myself and others on plain jane PC laptops. $40 for a new LED/LCD panel (kid smashed it by closing it on a mouse), $7 power supplies, cheap ram, cheap HDDs or SSDs, $12 keyboards, cheap batteries, etc. Instead of "bring it in to the Apple store and it'll be $199 for that".
I used to. Nowadays it is not in my interest to do with frustrations. I do it when I have to, but try to avoid it.
Since the wife and I are planning on traveling full-time and getting down to lightweight stuff we can carry in a backpack, I just bought a MacBook air last week on Craigslist. 2013 model, $500. (Old laptop was old and trackpad stopped working, is it was time to upgrade anyways, but our future plans dictates what I decided to buy.). Chromebook was not an option due to potential lack of Internet access. I'm running Windows 7 via Bootcamp, and shrunk the OS X partition to as small as possible, and may delete it soon. But it's a decent piece of hardware. Not something I'd get if we were staying at home, but it should serve my needs reasonably well. And access to any Apple Store in the world for service, if necessary, is a nice bonus.
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I used to. Nowadays it is not in my interest to do with frustrations. I do it when I have to, but try to avoid it.
Since the wife and I are planning on traveling full-time and getting down to lightweight stuff we can carry in a backpack, I just bought a MacBook air last week on Craigslist. 2013 model, $500. (Old laptop was old and trackpad stopped working, is it was time to upgrade anyways, but our future plans dictates what I decided to buy.). Chromebook was not an option due to potential lack of Internet access. I'm running Windows 7 via Bootcamp, and shrunk the OS X partition to as small as possible, and may delete it soon. But it's a decent piece of hardware. Not something I'd get if we were staying at home, but it should serve my needs reasonably well. And access to any Apple Store in the world for service, if necessary, is a nice bonus.
Gotcha. The lighter weight of a ultrabook or 13" PC notebook or mac air is certainly appealing. We're planning on traveling light (with 3 kids) and carrying basically carry on backpacks and bookbags for our upcoming 7 wk trip. I thought about paying up for something a little lighter than our 4.75-5 lb 15" laptops, but can't quite justify the big price bump and don't want to lose the screen real estate or ability to swap out common components for cheap. Of course we'll be home-based probably 40-45 weeks per year, so traveling isn't the primary focus for electronic gadgets.
Kids also break things, so losing a $250 laptop hurts less than losing a $500+ laptop. :)
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Yeah, if we had a home base we were at 90% of the time and traveling 10, I'd just put up with the extra weight/size. When we're fitting everything we own into two 28L backpacks, I'm okay spending a bit more. Or at least trying to make myself okay with it. :)
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I would recommend the 2012 i7 15 Macbook Pro (non retina) I just bought a second one for my brother. They are more powerful that 80+% of computers sold today and for sub 1k USD.. hard to beat.
I wanted the anti glare screen, so had to wait a while, I paid 1,011 for 2.3ghz, 16gb, 256gb ssd, with the antiglare screen. The only thing I wanted more was the 2.6ghz because of the upgrade to graphics card... but oh well, I don't play games anyway.
This is the last of the easy RAM/HDD/Optibay 15" Macbook, get the mid 2012 since they have USB 3.0.
That said, if they make a windows with a trackpad that works (multi touch, doesn't jump around) I saw some ~$700 at Sam's Club that were nice. Comparable to what I had just bought. But the trackpad... a disaster IMO.
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Yeah, if we had a home base we were at 90% of the time and traveling 10, I'd just put up with the extra weight/size. When we're fitting everything we own into two 28L backpacks, I'm okay spending a bit more. Or at least trying to make myself okay with it. :)
Woah, 28L! You guys are seriously going light. If you have a packing list for what you think you can fit in 28L, PM me (since I'm thinking about the packing list and what special gear or electronics, if any, I should take with us on our trip) . I'm looking more at 45-55 L backpacks for "only" 7 weeks though, however will be carrying surplus stuff if the kids can't pack it in their packs.
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Yeah, if we had a home base we were at 90% of the time and traveling 10, I'd just put up with the extra weight/size. When we're fitting everything we own into two 28L backpacks, I'm okay spending a bit more. Or at least trying to make myself okay with it. :)
Woah, 28L! You guys are seriously going light. If you have a packing list for what you think you can fit in 28L, PM me (since I'm thinking about the packing list and what special gear or electronics, if any, I should take with us on our trip) . I'm looking more at 45-55 L backpacks for "only" 7 weeks though, however will be carrying surplus stuff if the kids can't pack it in their packs.
I have travelled with both 28L and 55L. From my experience, I found it easier going with a half empty 55L pack than a jammed pack 28L. I think my larger pack had better ergonomic design so was more comfortable, but I was also better able to organize my stuff in the 55L pack. I'll probably look to buy a 45L pack when my 55L falls apart.
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77 also didn't ask to have to available this very second, they just were asking if anything in the PC world stacks up.
77 also feels a premium of ~$100 is perfectly reasonable for switching to OSX and not having the baked in OE bloatware.
I'm curious about you all recommending Lenovos. I know the old thinkpads were considered tanks. At work they issue two types of laptops; macbook pros and the flavor the month leased clones running windows. Previously they were HPs. Recently they switched over to Lenovos. I had the displeasure of using a co-workers' BRAND NEW Lenovo T-something-something today. The control surfaces are HORRRIBLE. The touch pad is lousy and the keyboard is not very comfortable to use. Feels like the keys are packed closer together than they should be. Also the machine got rather cranky when we connected it to the AirPlay services in the conference room. He says he's been looking into beta video drivers to cure some display issues he's been having.
And suddenly it all came back.
$100 is nothing in the uber-long run. Thank you all for the suggestions, I'm impressed that there seem to be more, better options than I had realized. But I'll buy another mac when I finish destroying this one.
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Recently they switched over to Lenovos. I had the displeasure of using a co-workers' BRAND NEW Lenovo T-something-something today. The control surfaces are HORRRIBLE. The touch pad is lousy and the keyboard is not very comfortable to use. Feels like the keys are packed closer together than they should be. Also the machine got rather cranky when we connected it to the AirPlay services in the conference room.
Lenovo Thinkpads up until about the T430/530 series were still tanks, but then they started going downhill abandoning everything that made them great while trying to impersonate the same questionable "features" of the Apple laptops (chicklet keys, etc.). I still swear by the older ones, but I wouldn't buy the new ones if my life depended on it. If I was required to buy new, I'd probably go with a Dell Latitude E5440/6440, but I'd still take a used Thinkpad T420/520 over either of those.
Also, complaining about Apple's proprietary AirPlay service not working well under any other OS is a little disingenuous. Apple's closed platform toys are only designed to work well under Apple's ecosystem. iTunes for Windows, for example. Proprietary vendor lock-in and shunning open standards is a scummy tactic from any software/platform vendor. Blaming the Thinkpad, no matter how badly designed the hardware is these days, is like kicking a dog for not having a small enough neck to keep from choking on some fancy, overpriced, one-size-fits-all collar that you want it to wear.
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Yeah, if we had a home base we were at 90% of the time and traveling 10, I'd just put up with the extra weight/size. When we're fitting everything we own into two 28L backpacks, I'm okay spending a bit more. Or at least trying to make myself okay with it. :)
Woah, 28L! You guys are seriously going light. If you have a packing list for what you think you can fit in 28L, PM me (since I'm thinking about the packing list and what special gear or electronics, if any, I should take with us on our trip) . I'm looking more at 45-55 L backpacks for "only" 7 weeks though, however will be carrying surplus stuff if the kids can't pack it in their packs.
You have many more people though, it's just the two of us. :D
I have list of websites I used for research, but I generally find that the shorter the trip, the more luggage you take proportionally to the length.
For example, we pack more for a week with my family in Seattle than we did for 2 months backpacking through Europe. When you have to really get it down, you do.
With kids though I imagine that'd be much, much harder.
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. I also tested an Acer Chromebook but the display was just killing my eyes..
Chromebooks are by far the best. No viruses. No Windows updates. Fast boot. And when you need to run a legacy program (such as YNAB) you can now run Linux in a window within Chrome OS.
You can get a Toshiba Chromebook with a much better screen than the Acer for $300 ish.
http://www.amazon.com/Toshiba-CB35-B3340-13-3-Inch-Chromebook-Full-HD/dp/B00N99FXIS
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I always think that a mac or any apple product, is worth it in the long run.
I have gone in and out of the eco-system many times over the years but I always look forward to returning to apple products, regardless of the price.
They just work.
What's funny about that - is that the phrase "they just work" applies in my case so much more to Chrombooks these days. In 2001 I switched from PC to Mac for their ease of use... and in 2011? when the first Chromebook came out I switched from Mac to Chromebook for the exact same reason.
A bus could literally run over my Chromebook right now and I could pick up a brand new Chromebook and log in and everything *EVERYTHING* would be instantly there on the new Chromebook within seconds of logging in.
The only exception to this would be if I had any local data on my Linux install... but since the only thing I use the Linux install for is for YNAB and all that is in the cloud too I still wouldn't lose anything. It'd just take me an hour to install crouton and YNAB again. But as soon as there's a cloud based YNAB that problem would go away too.
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A windows chromebook competitor:
http://www.laptopmag.com/reviews/laptops/asus-eeebook-x205ta
It's a budget option, but is a fair one of you want something cheap that runs windows. A little too underpowered for my taste. But it may fit your use case.
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This is such a hard question because it changes over the years, and it is very dependent on personal preferences. My personal view at the moment is:
- for under $300: get a Chromebook, or a Windows tablet with Anker stand and good wireless keyboard. If you want screen size, make sure your laptop/tablet comes with HDMI. For a desktop, look at a bay trail system (see this beauty: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856501010). Or build it yourself (look for J1800 or J1900 motherboards, combined with an SSD these are amazing).
- for under $500: buy one out of the $300 category now and renew in two years.
- for $1,000 range (or up) and you want to be mobile: go Apple. Better battery, good build quality, some say it is the better OS, awesome support, great resale value in 3-5 years.
- for $1,000 range (or up) and you want a desktop: build it yourself. Just the way you want it, no brand premium, fun of building it yourself, and no bloatware in sight (be careful when installing drivers in Windows!).
Who needs anything but the $300 computers? Hard to say. They are perfect for browsing, mailing, netflix, word processing ... . Do you use computers as a job to program, do research, video editing, RAW photo management ... ? Then you probably need to look at the $1,000 category.
Is Apple more expensive? To some extent. First, be careful with selecting options as they do come with a premium. Second, take the resale value into account as Apple computers maintain their value for far longer than their PC counterparts. And please: stop looking at the purchase value of goods but look at the total lifetime cost.
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Personally I like to spend $$$ on the device I will be using every single day of my life.
That's fine. It's still objectively a complete waste of money.
No. My quality of experience is worth it. And Macs easily last twice as long as PCs.
Would you like a bedpan and a catheter with that?
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/09/18/is-it-convenient-would-i-enjoy-it-wrong-question/
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Personally I like to spend $$$ on the device I will be using every single day of my life.
That's fine. It's still objectively a complete waste of money.
No. My quality of experience is worth it. And Macs easily last twice as long as PCs.
Would you like a bedpan and a catheter with that?
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/09/18/is-it-convenient-would-i-enjoy-it-wrong-question/
I'm not a huge fan of Apple stuff, but consciously paying for quality is starkly different than paying for comfort due to weakness.
Or do you build your own PCs, because using a motherboard/PSU/RAM designed and built by someone else is weak?
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A windows chromebook competitor:
http://www.laptopmag.com/reviews/laptops/asus-eeebook-x205ta
It's a budget option, but is a fair one of you want something cheap that runs windows. A little too underpowered for my taste. But it may fit your use case.
Anyone else have any suggestions for PCs in that $200 range? We just bought a HP Stream 11 for $200, but have had some small quirks with it, so we may be sending it back.
My wife just needs something small and underpowered to write on (and Chromebook is no good because of lack of Internet access while we travel).
This looks like a good alternative.
Thanks for the link! :)
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Your used options are endless at around 200-230. I think these are all stronger options, except that the laptop I linked to probably destroys them in battery life. With that said a stronger processor, 4GB of ram, and 500gb of hd space are notable improvements.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00LO3K0B6/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used
- That looks like an even better option and a great price at 216 (buy the amazon open box). 4GB ram, 500gb hd. .
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B009F1I1C4/ref=sr_1_1_olp?ie=UTF8&qid=1427810113&sr=8-1&keywords=vivobook+x202e&condition=used
$100 more but an I3 processor, also seems to be a metal chassis.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00K5DZO5I/ref=sr_1_7_olp?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1427810707&sr=1-7&keywords=asus+11.6&condition=used
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00IQEA8UE/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00F32ZB68/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00E3KQWIC/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used
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The MS store is selling this for $200 right now:
http://smile.amazon.com/dp/B00FCK20SI/ref=psdc_565108_t3_B00E3KQWIC
So I'm really trying to decide between these two I think:
http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/pdp/HP-Pavilion-x2-10-k077nr-Signature-Edition-2-in-1-PC/productID.309725500
http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/pdp/ASUS-EeeBook-X205TA-US01-BL-Signature-Edition-Laptop/productID.311268400
Leaning towards the latter, simply because the touchscreen/tablet part won't really be used at all.
While I buy used for most everything, I think in the $200 laptop range new is probably worth it.
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I'd suggest:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00LO3K0B6/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used
Open box from amazon warehouse deals (I've boughten from amazon warehouse before). You'll get 4GB of ram, stronger processor, and way more storage. I think the power/storage is worth it. You're also getting USB 3 ports as well.
With that said you'll lose out on battery life. The X205 is also lighter and will boot faster due to the SSD.
Good luck!
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You have many more people though, it's just the two of us. :D
I have list of websites I used for research, but I generally find that the shorter the trip, the more luggage you take proportionally to the length.
I've noticed that perverse relationship too. :) I think it's the willingness to deal with carrying more baggage for a short period of time instead of multiple months.
With kids though I imagine that'd be much, much harder.
Yeah, I'm not sure if the kids understand that they are primarily responsible for carrying their own gear. I think I'm going to let them research their electronic device entertainment options and let them buy the device(s) with their own money. Otherwise, I think the toys will be 1-2 light outdoor play items and maybe a tiny stuffed animal for the youngest one. And a wooden train he loves and can provide hours of entertainment. We're already getting questions like "daddy, how many pesos are in a dollar?" "15" "How much can I buy with 15 pesos?" "A lot" :)
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I've noticed that perverse relationship too. :) I think it's the willingness to deal with carrying more baggage for a short period of time instead of multiple months.
Makes sense.
With kids though I imagine that'd be much, much harder.
Yeah, I'm not sure if the kids understand that they are primarily responsible for carrying their own gear. I think I'm going to let them research their electronic device entertainment options and let them buy the device(s) with their own money. Otherwise, I think the toys will be 1-2 light outdoor play items and maybe a tiny stuffed animal for the youngest one. And a wooden train he loves and can provide hours of entertainment. We're already getting questions like "daddy, how many pesos are in a dollar?" "15" "How much can I buy with 15 pesos?" "A lot" :)
Yeah, I'm definitely taking notes on child rearing from your example, among a few select others. :)
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I'd avoid Macs. I like how shiny and cool they are, but every time I let myself get roped back in I end up regretting it. The price is high. The design is very nice. However, better quality can be found elsewhere for less money. I also chafe under all the limitations you have to live with in their ecosystem. I've done this cycle a couple times. I so much *want* to like Apple, I give them a try, then the cold hard facts hit me again and I abandon them yet again...
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Yeah, I'm definitely taking notes on child rearing from your example, among a few select others. :)
Oh crap, I hope it's mostly good stuff you see and not schadenfreude over my predicament. :)
I'm feeling strangely better about our 7 wk Mexico trip than our 5 wk Canada road trip (that we aborted 1/2 way through). Less traveling this time around, more spread out, and more convenience and luxury (without a huge price tag).
Can you pm me the link(s) to whatever packing sites you found on traveling light? Thanks!
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Personally I like to spend $$$ on the device I will be using every single day of my life.
That's fine. It's still objectively a complete waste of money.
No. My quality of experience is worth it. And Macs easily last twice as long as PCs.
Would you like a bedpan and a catheter with that?
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/09/18/is-it-convenient-would-i-enjoy-it-wrong-question/
I'm not a huge fan of Apple stuff, but consciously paying for quality is starkly different than paying for comfort due to weakness.
Or do you build your own PCs, because using a motherboard/PSU/RAM designed and built by someone else is weak?
The person I was responding to didn't say quality, they said "quality of experience", which I take as being synonymous with luxury (though I think my argument still stands by either definition, because I don't think THE BEST QUALITY EVERRRR is really necessary - a dinner at a fancy restaurant is probably objectively better than something you make at home but if you chose that all the time I would still see it as a waste of money, even if you could afford it, because no human being needs to eat fine dining every day, and having more than you need regardless of quality = luxury). That said, Macs really aren't higher in quality -- as some people have already pointed out, they have Windows hardware in them. Obtaining a PC with the same specs as a Mac can be done with far, far less money (my PC is fantastic and cost about $400 to build).
My husband actually is the PC-building one in the family, but that's beside the point. I don't think the MMM article is talking about weakness. It's not WEAK to want luxury, it's simply something that leads away from Mustachianism, not towards it.
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My wife just needs something small and underpowered to write on (and Chromebook is no good because of lack of Internet access while we travel).
Chromebooks can be used offline now though btw.
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I don't think there's anything objective out there. My personal experience:
I've more than gotten my money out of this mac. It's 7 years old. I replaced the battery and drive. And it's still my favorite daily driver for development and web browsing.
Windows is much better than it was. And if you get a high end machine, it can age on par with a mac. But the price will be on par too.
I love linux, but it's still not there for the common user desktop. It's almost perfect for development.
Chromebooks seem like a very good inexpensive option, but they are somewhat unknown, so a bit of a risk.
Good luck!