Author Topic: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?  (Read 31064 times)

RapmasterD

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #50 on: March 13, 2015, 06:11:18 PM »
And Macs easily last twice as long as PCs.

Respectfully, this is a phenomenally uninformed statement.

Well, we can only go on our personal experience.

I have a 2009 MacBook Pro that sees usage every day and is doing just fine.

I have a 2011 MacBook Air that is my daily driver (i.e., primary machine) and is doing even better.

I never EVER had a Windows work PC that made it through the full three year SDL depreciation period -- EVER.

ender

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #51 on: March 13, 2015, 06:13:40 PM »
This may be a stupid no. 1 reason why I love my macbook air but the tracking pad is awesome. 
When I've had windows laptops I've had to carry a damn mouse around because of how bad inbuilt pointers/trackers are on PC's. 
So it's not just what's on the inside that counts when comparing ...

This is what won me over to Apple 5 years ago.

I expect it'll be what keeps me with Apple whenever my machine finally dies.

AmbitiousCanuck

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #52 on: March 13, 2015, 06:14:47 PM »
And Macs easily last twice as long as PCs.

Respectfully, this is a phenomenally uninformed statement.

Well, we can only go on our personal experience.

...

I feel it is unhealthy to make sweeping generalizations based on anecdotal evidence.

Christof

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #53 on: March 14, 2015, 01:50:05 AM »
Well, that comparison doesn't really work for computers. Streets won't become faster or more difficult to drive on with time. For a computer websites and everything else will require more power and modern software won't run on them which will affect security. A car from 20 years ago will perfectly run on todays streets, a 20 year old computer won't be able to show any modern website.

You keep doing this... Initially, you talked about the screen and the battery. Then in a response you added fan and logic board. Initially you spoke about five years you want to get out of your computer, now you are somehow extending this to 20 years. If you keep looking for excuses, you will find them, that is how rationalizing works. ;)

Figure out what you priorities are, look at the facts that support them, and then go and get the most efficient solution. Every 300 you spend on your computer is 1 in retirement payments. If a new Mac now is worth it to you giving up 6/month or two days of food for life, then be it.

pancakes

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #54 on: March 14, 2015, 04:42:05 AM »
I've had 3 notebook computers since 2003 and all have been Macs. All up they have cost me probably $7000 which as an annual cost I'm happy enough with, especially when I consider how many hours of use it gets every day. I expect to get a few more years out of my current one.

All my old computers still work too but technology has been moving too fast for them to remain useful for much. Maybe the 12" IBM Powerbook will become a collectors item one day?

Probably the biggest reason that I stick with Macs today is that my work uses windows and I really like that I have a completely different computer experience at home to at work.

I still remember the look on my dad's face the day we put his old $6000 (in 1989) desktop computer out on the street for garbage collection. There is a financial cost to the convenience of home computing for sure but as time has progressed it has at least gotten cheaper.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2015, 04:45:28 AM by pancakes »

schnell

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #55 on: March 14, 2015, 05:09:21 AM »
I see your point. But if you consider that you spend like 50 Dollars per month for your Mac, is it still worth it for you? That just seems a lot of money to me.


OT: Just noticed my horrible spelling mistake in the titel. Is it possible to correct "deside" and put "decide"?
« Last Edit: March 14, 2015, 05:58:15 AM by schnell »

use2betrix

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #56 on: March 14, 2015, 06:10:16 AM »
In 2006 I spent $1200 on a nice brand new HP I ordered directly from HP. Within 2-3 years it was garbage. Power button quit working, had to open through the QuickTime key. Cd drive would eject at random times. Extended cell battery was garbage.

After that I purchased a base 13" MacBook pro for around $1100 in 2009. I still have that computer. I quit using it about a year and a half ago but it still worked. Battery was slowing down and touch pad was weak. Both fixed with a mouse and plugging in.

I am a bit biased after that experience. My work laptop has been going good for 1.5 years now and is a solid computer.

I now do all my computer stuff at work so haven't used a computer at home in a couple years. If I were to purchase one, it would probably be a Mac. I haven't had Internet for a couple years either (do so much with my phone) but I may get a Mac mini down the road.

MoneyCat

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #57 on: March 14, 2015, 06:21:39 AM »
And Macs easily last twice as long as PCs.

Respectfully, this is a phenomenally uninformed statement.

Well, we can only go on our personal experience.

I have a 2009 MacBook Pro that sees usage every day and is doing just fine.

I have a 2011 MacBook Air that is my daily driver (i.e., primary machine) and is doing even better.

I never EVER had a Windows work PC that made it through the full three year SDL depreciation period -- EVER.

I have a 2011 Dell laptop and it was having a lot of problems, so I used iolo System Mechanic on it and now it's working like it's brand new again.  I use this laptop for absolutely everything including almost all my entertainment, so it tends to be powered on and in use for at least ten hours a day.  PCs can last a really long time as long as you maintain them properly.

17oclockshadow

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #58 on: March 14, 2015, 08:28:17 AM »
Hey there! I'm so undecisive right now! I've been a Mac user for the last 10 years and Macs have served me very well. However, ever since I "became a mustachian" one year ago it just hurts to pay so much money for a computer again even though I could pay it in cash with no problems! My last Mac just died and served me well for about 6 years. However, it cost me about 1700 Euros back then. That means that I spent like 25 Euros (I replaced battery and HDD too) every month for that Computer!

The problem so far is that I kind of need a computer right now, I've been trying other options instead of Macs for the last month and I'm just being unefficient, not because the other options don't work but because I can't decide what to buy now. I could get a cheap desktop Windows PC but then I think that I sometimes really want to be mobile. Also, Windows PCs tend to be quite loud and take up space, plus you lose time because of all that updating and virus stuff! I'm not experienced in Linux and need Microsoft Office otherwise I would just use an old PC with Linux.

However, if I want to be mobile Macs just are the best computers out there because they combine power with good battery life and great displays (retina). I also tested an Acer Chromebook but the display was just killing my eyes..

I'm just confused. I kind of think that I should probably be able to get the job done with whatever computer I can get as long as it has word and a keyboard. I don't know what to do.

Do you have any suggestions? I'm a student by the way, so I kind of rely on a god computer but don't earn money with it...

It's funny how clearly Macs are NOT mustachian, but there are still so many strong defenders of them on this forum.
They are an expensive luxury, and in most circumstances people get a much better value from an inexpensive PC.
This helps to illustrate how much people in THIS forum (of all places) are still slaves to consumerism.

That said, the purpose the whole lifestyle is not to live frugally, but to optimize quality of life.  Every gets to pick and choose their battles, and perhaps for some people having a Mac as their expensive toy is the exception they make; that's definitely ok.  You can be frugal and still have a Mac; that does not make Macs frugal.

Perhaps your exception if cable TV, or a car, or fancy restaurants, or lattes.  You can't have it all though unless you want to give up on retiring early or have a huge income stream.  But most people can probably afford a few luxuries and still retire pretty early.

77rider

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #59 on: March 14, 2015, 08:45:24 AM »
You should only spend your money on what YOU want if you meet MY string of long, intricate, arbitrary criteria.

Do what you like. It's your call.

That said, I spend my money on macbooks. I like them, a lot. The hardware is superior to most of the windows based laptops I have seen for comparable or less money. Most win based systems available for lower cost are vastly inferior. Crappy displays. Poor, chinzy I/O surfaces (keyboard, touchpad). Heavy. Cheap plastic. Etc. Etc.

Feature for feature you have to spend a bunch of money on a PC clone laptop to get the same quality and feel as a macbook. And at that point.. what's the point?
My company supplies engineers with two laptops; 15" macbook pros and a comparatively spec'ed "business class" machine from Lenovo or HP. The HP's actually cost 50% MORE than the MBPs. I think the Lenovos may be priced the same as the MBP. But neither stack up in terms of usability.

MacOS is also more usable in my opinion. I am a professional software type and vastly prefer a *nix command line interface. I find the file system simpler and more stable for my use. And the OS doesn't ship with any OEM bloatware crap installed on top of it.

I bought a win 8.1 based tablet / hyper-portable for travel last year. Total waste of my money. I should have bought a macbook air or something at 4x the cost. It is 100x the machine.

But in the end, buy whatcho want. This isn't a case where there is a single option that is way better on the bang/buck ratio than the rest. Anything priced less will be less. This is one of those times where you get what you pay for.

Ricky

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #60 on: March 14, 2015, 08:54:11 AM »
I also find it strangely hypocritical (not necessarily directing this towards anyone here) how someone can say Apple only makes overpriced stuff (can get buy with cheaper) yet owns or rents 2-3x more house than they need. You'll never spend enough difference on computers to get back the opportunity costs lost by living in too much house. Then again, in general, these one-off costs aren't as critical as the destructive subscriptions most people benefit much more from cutting (Starbucks, clothes, restaurants, etc).

pancakes

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #61 on: March 14, 2015, 09:21:54 AM »
I see your point. But if you consider that you spend like 50 Dollars per month for your Mac, is it still worth it for you? That just seems a lot of money to me.

I get that too.

I still splurge on more things than many here would themselves and my computer is certainly one of them. I am very much ok with $50 per month for what I get from it.

This is quite possibly just me rationalising, but as I always intend to keep a computer has my primary machine for 5+ years and because I'm familiar with the Mac, I'm confident that my purchase will meet my needs. I'd hate to buy something half the price, be disappointed and then feel like I have to live with it for at least a few years.

ender

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #62 on: March 14, 2015, 09:48:06 AM »
It's funny how clearly Macs are NOT mustachian, but there are still so many strong defenders of them on this forum.
They are an expensive luxury, and in most circumstances people get a much better value from an inexpensive PC.
This helps to illustrate how much people in THIS forum (of all places) are still slaves to consumerism.

Slaves to consumerism? Really? Clearly not mustachian?

The incremental cost I have paid for my 5 year old 13" macbook pro vs a windows machine is nearly nothing. A former roommate and I have joked that his similarly used windows laptops cost nearly the same as mine since he's bought them about twice as often as I have. His has also been completely down for nearly two weeks total for repairs covered by warranty.

I used this machine full-time in graduate school for 2.5 years, in addition to about 2 years of personal usage. Probably a total number of hours I don't even want to consider. The amount I pay per hour more to have in my opinion a much superior product is next to nothing (if it has even cost me anything at all). I like using my 5-year old laptop. My work laptop (which cost as much as the 15" retina machines do currently) is not enjoyable to use, the hardware feels inferior and cheap, and the trackpad/display are worse. This machine still looks/feels solid and new, other than minor cosmetic damage.

A laptop is a tool. This tool has met my needs perfectly for the last 5 years. A similarly equipped Windows machine to have met my needs would have not cost the $400 or $500 that people seem to expect, but close to if not more than this one did.

I expect that there are a large number of people here who don't buy the absolute cheapest available tools, instead preferring something higher quality or more robust for the exact same reasons I bought this laptop. Likewise, most people here spend more on food than they could for again, similar reasons. Does preferring high(er) quality food make you a slave to consumerism?

Many people don't care about the things that make Mac computer valuable to others (such as myself) and competitive price wise. I care about the build quality, screen quality, trackpad/keyboard quality, quiet fan, backlit screen, multitouch functionality, and the operating system among other things. A lot of people don't. I am willing to "pay" for those things (I'm still not convinced that my laptop was more expensive than comparable Windows machines, which makes the "cost" even less over the last 5 years, but hey let's pretend). And that's fine, everyone has their own perspective on what makes something valuable. But the idea that because someone doesn't think something is valuable --> completely not having value to other people is an idea which seems to be much more amplified when it comes to Apple products.

When I look to buy a new computer I am going to look for that list of things I want in a computer. Those items matter to me. When I bought this machine, there were no comparable Windows laptops which were close to the value Apple provided. Perhaps it will not be the case that Apple laptops are the best value. I know of no other way I can impact as many hours of my life positively with $150/year as choosing a Mac vs Windows does.

And for what it's worth, I think iPhone/iPads are a huge waste of money compared to the plethora of Android devices available.


schnell

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #63 on: March 14, 2015, 11:06:46 AM »
Good comment. What I find funny is that some people are like "how can you get a Mac, it's so overpriced" and use a 700 Euro phone. Which does NOT increasy their productivity as much as a Mac does.

17oclockshadow

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #64 on: March 14, 2015, 12:41:10 PM »
It's funny how clearly Macs are NOT mustachian, but there are still so many strong defenders of them on this forum.
They are an expensive luxury, and in most circumstances people get a much better value from an inexpensive PC.
This helps to illustrate how much people in THIS forum (of all places) are still slaves to consumerism.

Slaves to consumerism? Really? Clearly not mustachian?

The incremental cost I have paid for my 5 year old 13" macbook pro vs a windows machine is nearly nothing. A former roommate and I have joked that his similarly used windows laptops cost nearly the same as mine since he's bought them about twice as often as I have. His has also been completely down for nearly two weeks total for repairs covered by warranty.

I used this machine full-time in graduate school for 2.5 years, in addition to about 2 years of personal usage. Probably a total number of hours I don't even want to consider. The amount I pay per hour more to have in my opinion a much superior product is next to nothing (if it has even cost me anything at all). I like using my 5-year old laptop. My work laptop (which cost as much as the 15" retina machines do currently) is not enjoyable to use, the hardware feels inferior and cheap, and the trackpad/display are worse. This machine still looks/feels solid and new, other than minor cosmetic damage.

A laptop is a tool. This tool has met my needs perfectly for the last 5 years. A similarly equipped Windows machine to have met my needs would have not cost the $400 or $500 that people seem to expect, but close to if not more than this one did.

I expect that there are a large number of people here who don't buy the absolute cheapest available tools, instead preferring something higher quality or more robust for the exact same reasons I bought this laptop. Likewise, most people here spend more on food than they could for again, similar reasons. Does preferring high(er) quality food make you a slave to consumerism?

Many people don't care about the things that make Mac computer valuable to others (such as myself) and competitive price wise. I care about the build quality, screen quality, trackpad/keyboard quality, quiet fan, backlit screen, multitouch functionality, and the operating system among other things. A lot of people don't. I am willing to "pay" for those things (I'm still not convinced that my laptop was more expensive than comparable Windows machines, which makes the "cost" even less over the last 5 years, but hey let's pretend). And that's fine, everyone has their own perspective on what makes something valuable. But the idea that because someone doesn't think something is valuable --> completely not having value to other people is an idea which seems to be much more amplified when it comes to Apple products.

When I look to buy a new computer I am going to look for that list of things I want in a computer. Those items matter to me. When I bought this machine, there were no comparable Windows laptops which were close to the value Apple provided. Perhaps it will not be the case that Apple laptops are the best value. I know of no other way I can impact as many hours of my life positively with $150/year as choosing a Mac vs Windows does.

And for what it's worth, I think iPhone/iPads are a huge waste of money compared to the plethora of Android devices available.

I don't know what to say, other than I and several others have not had so many problems with laptops; and often laptops that are far cheaper.

I think I incorrectly stated that Macs are a bad value; what I meant to communicate was that they are a good value, but an extravagant purchase.  Similar to buying a fancy car when all that you need is something that is fuel efficient.  They are a purchase that most people don't need, given their high cost.  Similiarly, most people don't need a fancy PC that is equivalent (hardware wise) with a Mac.

In terms of people's PCs falling apart faster than Macs, forcing them to buy new ones... .  I have observed it with people that are less computer savy.  I wonder if this more has to do with the inability of the purchaser to choose the right PC for their needs, not junk it up with spam, etc...  Perhaps Macs have an edge in that case, in that they are more user friendly (presumably, I don't use them).  In that case, the more frugal thing to do is to get a little more educated and even just deal with the frustration.

I used a cheap dell for all of graduate school plus an additional year or so; at least 6 years.  It was not until the last year that the performance became problematic... and at that point I was out of grad school and employed in places that gave me a work computer.  The computer still worked well for all I did with it; surf the web and send emails.  This dell handled all of the scientific software quite well; meanwhile everyone with a Mac was having compatibility problems since most if not all of the software is made for PCs.  I know that these kinks are starting to be worked out, but it is only a recent advance.

I agree on the ipads/iphones part, for the same reasons listed above.
I may one day get one of these fancypants devices, perhaps in FIRE.  But for now, I give up the luxury because my cheap laptop does quite well, lasts several years, and the money I saved goes straight into VTSAX where it will buy 3 Macs in the future.

use2betrix

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #65 on: March 14, 2015, 05:47:36 PM »
It's funny how clearly Macs are NOT mustachian, but there are still so many strong defenders of them on this forum.
They are an expensive luxury, and in most circumstances people get a much better value from an inexpensive PC.
This helps to illustrate how much people in THIS forum (of all places) are still slaves to consumerism.

Slaves to consumerism? Really? Clearly not mustachian?

The incremental cost I have paid for my 5 year old 13" macbook pro vs a windows machine is nearly nothing. A former roommate and I have joked that his similarly used windows laptops cost nearly the same as mine since he's bought them about twice as often as I have. His has also been completely down for nearly two weeks total for repairs covered by warranty.

I used this machine full-time in graduate school for 2.5 years, in addition to about 2 years of personal usage. Probably a total number of hours I don't even want to consider. The amount I pay per hour more to have in my opinion a much superior product is next to nothing (if it has even cost me anything at all). I like using my 5-year old laptop. My work laptop (which cost as much as the 15" retina machines do currently) is not enjoyable to use, the hardware feels inferior and cheap, and the trackpad/display are worse. This machine still looks/feels solid and new, other than minor cosmetic damage.

A laptop is a tool. This tool has met my needs perfectly for the last 5 years. A similarly equipped Windows machine to have met my needs would have not cost the $400 or $500 that people seem to expect, but close to if not more than this one did.

I expect that there are a large number of people here who don't buy the absolute cheapest available tools, instead preferring something higher quality or more robust for the exact same reasons I bought this laptop. Likewise, most people here spend more on food than they could for again, similar reasons. Does preferring high(er) quality food make you a slave to consumerism?

Many people don't care about the things that make Mac computer valuable to others (such as myself) and competitive price wise. I care about the build quality, screen quality, trackpad/keyboard quality, quiet fan, backlit screen, multitouch functionality, and the operating system among other things. A lot of people don't. I am willing to "pay" for those things (I'm still not convinced that my laptop was more expensive than comparable Windows machines, which makes the "cost" even less over the last 5 years, but hey let's pretend). And that's fine, everyone has their own perspective on what makes something valuable. But the idea that because someone doesn't think something is valuable --> completely not having value to other people is an idea which seems to be much more amplified when it comes to Apple products.

When I look to buy a new computer I am going to look for that list of things I want in a computer. Those items matter to me. When I bought this machine, there were no comparable Windows laptops which were close to the value Apple provided. Perhaps it will not be the case that Apple laptops are the best value. I know of no other way I can impact as many hours of my life positively with $150/year as choosing a Mac vs Windows does.

And for what it's worth, I think iPhone/iPads are a huge waste of money compared to the plethora of Android devices available.

I don't know what to say, other than I and several others have not had so many problems with laptops; and often laptops that are far cheaper.

I think I incorrectly stated that Macs are a bad value; what I meant to communicate was that they are a good value, but an extravagant purchase.  Similar to buying a fancy car when all that you need is something that is fuel efficient.  They are a purchase that most people don't need, given their high cost.  Similiarly, most people don't need a fancy PC that is equivalent (hardware wise) with a Mac.

In terms of people's PCs falling apart faster than Macs, forcing them to buy new ones... .  I have observed it with people that are less computer savy.  I wonder if this more has to do with the inability of the purchaser to choose the right PC for their needs, not junk it up with spam, etc...  Perhaps Macs have an edge in that case, in that they are more user friendly (presumably, I don't use them).  In that case, the more frugal thing to do is to get a little more educated and even just deal with the frustration.

I used a cheap dell for all of graduate school plus an additional year or so; at least 6 years.  It was not until the last year that the performance became problematic... and at that point I was out of grad school and employed in places that gave me a work computer.  The computer still worked well for all I did with it; surf the web and send emails.  This dell handled all of the scientific software quite well; meanwhile everyone with a Mac was having compatibility problems since most if not all of the software is made for PCs.  I know that these kinks are starting to be worked out, but it is only a recent advance.

I agree on the ipads/iphones part, for the same reasons listed above.
I may one day get one of these fancypants devices, perhaps in FIRE.  But for now, I give up the luxury because my cheap laptop does quite well, lasts several years, and the money I saved goes straight into VTSAX where it will buy 3 Macs in the future.

A lot depends how much a person makes as well. An extra $400 on a laptop spread out over 5 years is much different for a person who makes 50k vs 150k...

frugaldrummer

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #66 on: March 14, 2015, 06:15:54 PM »
I have a friend who only has used Macs, and to be fair, she's a musician and uses garageband, which is why she sticks with Macs.

I have used cheap Toshiba laptops, usually around $400 on sale.

Most of our other uses for our laptops are the same. We surf the web, send emails, watch videos.  Both are equally easy to use for these purposes and work just as well.

Her Macs have suffered more breakage (assorted plastic pieces separating from the case).  They have not lasted any longer than my Toshibas. The same is true for the Mac laptops my two adult musician kids have.

So my friend has spent THREE TIMES as much for laptops over the years than I have. She also spends three times as much for her iPhones. And she's poor, and doesn't realize how much more it's costing her to have the prestige of Apple products.

To me, the only reason to spend the extra money is if you need it for music or graphic processing, and I don't know but I'm pretty sure Apple no longer has an exclusive on those things.

mjb

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #67 on: March 14, 2015, 06:33:57 PM »
I buy all my Macs used. My latest MacBook Pro was $650 on eBay. I expect it to last me a few years.

There's almost no reason to pay new prices unless you're making a lot of money using the thing.

daverobev

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #68 on: March 14, 2015, 06:47:04 PM »
I just bought a grade A, Dell Latitude refurb off lease. It's basically as new, I think they might've put a new battery in.

I have owned Macs. I liked my Mac Mini, a lot.

I would say e $360 I spent on a really good business level laptop was worth it. It will easily last 5 years the way I take care of things.

I find OS X finnicky and harder to get things done with (keyboard shortcuts are lacking for some things). I would certainly not pay more for an Apple than a good Windows machine.

I wouldn't buy a consumer Dell, though, nor an Acer, and probably not HP. My wife has had a refurb Toshiba Satellite for 5 years now and, with an easily upgraded to SSD, it still chugs along well enough for what she does - including Illustrator and Photoshop.

Macs are like BMWs. If you want it/can afford it/choose to use your discretionary income on it, go for it. But please don't try to convince yourself or anyone else it isn't a luxury purchase.

iamlindoro

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #69 on: March 14, 2015, 07:25:55 PM »
Slightly different perspective, I'm a Mac OS X and (more often) iOS developer.  Outside of a Hackintosh, which is a viable (but unsupported) option, this is the only way to get my work done.  For me, though, the conversion to Mac came first, then the income.  I write off the computer and iPhone/iPad purchases, and they pay for themselves within a few hours/days of work.  However, I don't upgrade frequently either.  Just this last month I upgraded my 6 year old Macbook Pro and my 5 year old iPhone.

My transition from Linux and Windows to Mac only was mostly because of the elegance of the interface and the general enjoyment of using Mac OS X over the alternatives.  I was a long time core developer with a relatively well known open source software, and primarily used Ubuntu and Debian in the past.  There is simply an intangible but real enjoyment I get from using my Mac that I have never gotten on another OS.  The "feel good" factor is obviously subjective, but it's also something which is impossible to evaluate objectively. 

If I get a lot more enjoyment on a daily basis for the price premium, not to mention the purchase allowing to make way, way more money than I was ever able to on another OS, the cost is both objectively and subjectively worth it to me.

kathrynd

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #70 on: March 14, 2015, 07:56:40 PM »
lol...I thought this post was about buying Big Mac's...which I no longer buy, but I do make the big mac sauce occasionally at home

17oclockshadow

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #71 on: March 14, 2015, 11:41:09 PM »
lol...I thought this post was about buying Big Mac's...which I no longer buy, but I do make the big mac sauce occasionally at home

This is EASILY the best comment of the thread.

daverobev

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #72 on: March 15, 2015, 03:57:11 AM »
Slightly different perspective, I'm a Mac OS X and (more often) iOS developer.  Outside of a Hackintosh, which is a viable (but unsupported) option, this is the only way to get my work done.  For me, though, the conversion to Mac came first, then the income.  I write off the computer and iPhone/iPad purchases, and they pay for themselves within a few hours/days of work.  However, I don't upgrade frequently either.  Just this last month I upgraded my 6 year old Macbook Pro and my 5 year old iPhone.

My transition from Linux and Windows to Mac only was mostly because of the elegance of the interface and the general enjoyment of using Mac OS X over the alternatives.  I was a long time core developer with a relatively well known open source software, and primarily used Ubuntu and Debian in the past.  There is simply an intangible but real enjoyment I get from using my Mac that I have never gotten on another OS.  The "feel good" factor is obviously subjective, but it's also something which is impossible to evaluate objectively. 

If I get a lot more enjoyment on a daily basis for the price premium, not to mention the purchase allowing to make way, way more money than I was ever able to on another OS, the cost is both objectively and subjectively worth it to me.

If you make serious money from a tool, of course it is worth paying for. It's just like having a truck to haul stone or straw or whatever.

I can't say I've noticed OS X being much more elegant... depends if you're more a keyboard or mouse person I guess. But after years of Linux, it's hardly surprising OS X, based on Unix, feels more at home. It's like Linux but polished. And if you're a dev, no doubt you can get to the guts via Terminal no problem, write Bash scripts to do things, etc.

Finder, at least last time I saw it, was fairly shit. The Dock is fairly shit. That the keychain loses info now and again... That you have to repair permissions every so often...

Bleh.

schnell

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #73 on: March 15, 2015, 04:55:04 AM »
That's true! I've seend a lot of professional programmers who use Macbook Pros (15"). I think that if you (have to) spend lots of time with your computer it's worth it to get a Mac because tiny details matter then.

However, if you don't earn money with your computer it might be better to get the crappiest desktop pc (as noisy as possible). That will probably make you spend less time in front of your computer and do healthier stuff (cooking, exercise, socialize, read books, ...). I think I've read this idea in one of the MMM posts as well, I think it was "getting your brain back".

frugal_engineer

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #74 on: March 15, 2015, 08:56:26 AM »
Id recommend looking into getting a early unibody macbook pro model (say 2009-2011) which will be heavily discounted over a newer model as several posters have already mentioned.  Then do a swap to an SSD (~$80 for 256GB).

I just did that on my mid-2009 MBP which i was considering replacing since it was getting awfully slow.  Imagine my surprise when it improved speed by at least 200-300%!  Its like having a brand new MBP for $80.  IMO, its worth looking into for getting the mac quality and experience without the insane entry price.

daverobev

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #75 on: March 15, 2015, 10:06:45 AM »
Id recommend looking into getting a early unibody macbook pro model (say 2009-2011) which will be heavily discounted over a newer model as several posters have already mentioned.  Then do a swap to an SSD (~$80 for 256GB).

I just did that on my mid-2009 MBP which i was considering replacing since it was getting awfully slow.  Imagine my surprise when it improved speed by at least 200-300%!  Its like having a brand new MBP for $80.  IMO, its worth looking into for getting the mac quality and experience without the insane entry price.

Also fixing permissions. I was gobsmacked at how slowly my MIL's laptop was going... rebooted into whatever mode it is, fixed a bunch of permission mismatches and it ran like new.

innkeeper77

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #76 on: March 15, 2015, 11:06:13 AM »
And Macs easily last twice as long as PCs.

Respectfully, this is a phenomenally uninformed statement.

Well, we can only go on our personal experience.

I have a 2009 MacBook Pro that sees usage every day and is doing just fine.

I have a 2011 MacBook Air that is my daily driver (i.e., primary machine) and is doing even better.

I never EVER had a Windows work PC that made it through the full three year SDL depreciation period -- EVER.

I'm posting this from a Thinkpad T510 purchased in 2010.. I don't see myself replacing it for another 3 years at least. It runs windows 7 and works just fine. Daily usage. It will need a new hard drive at some point (SSD probably)  and it is a bit beat up (it was my college laptop) but a mac would be in a similar situation.

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #77 on: March 15, 2015, 04:06:06 PM »
And Macs easily last twice as long as PCs.

Respectfully, this is a phenomenally uninformed statement.

Well, we can only go on our personal experience.

...

I feel it is unhealthy to make sweeping generalizations based on anecdotal evidence.

But I only related my personal experience. I don't recall making any generalizations.

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #78 on: March 15, 2015, 04:09:28 PM »
It's funny how clearly Macs are NOT mustachian, but there are still so many strong defenders of them on this forum.
They are an expensive luxury, and in most circumstances people get a much better value from an inexpensive PC.
This helps to illustrate how much people in THIS forum (of all places) are still slaves to consumerism.

Slaves to consumerism? Really? Clearly not mustachian?

The incremental cost I have paid for my 5 year old 13" macbook pro vs a windows machine is nearly nothing. A former roommate and I have joked that his similarly used windows laptops cost nearly the same as mine since he's bought them about twice as often as I have. His has also been completely down for nearly two weeks total for repairs covered by warranty.

I used this machine full-time in graduate school for 2.5 years, in addition to about 2 years of personal usage. Probably a total number of hours I don't even want to consider. The amount I pay per hour more to have in my opinion a much superior product is next to nothing (if it has even cost me anything at all). I like using my 5-year old laptop. My work laptop (which cost as much as the 15" retina machines do currently) is not enjoyable to use, the hardware feels inferior and cheap, and the trackpad/display are worse. This machine still looks/feels solid and new, other than minor cosmetic damage.

A laptop is a tool. This tool has met my needs perfectly for the last 5 years. A similarly equipped Windows machine to have met my needs would have not cost the $400 or $500 that people seem to expect, but close to if not more than this one did.

I expect that there are a large number of people here who don't buy the absolute cheapest available tools, instead preferring something higher quality or more robust for the exact same reasons I bought this laptop. Likewise, most people here spend more on food than they could for again, similar reasons. Does preferring high(er) quality food make you a slave to consumerism?

Many people don't care about the things that make Mac computer valuable to others (such as myself) and competitive price wise. I care about the build quality, screen quality, trackpad/keyboard quality, quiet fan, backlit screen, multitouch functionality, and the operating system among other things. A lot of people don't. I am willing to "pay" for those things (I'm still not convinced that my laptop was more expensive than comparable Windows machines, which makes the "cost" even less over the last 5 years, but hey let's pretend). And that's fine, everyone has their own perspective on what makes something valuable. But the idea that because someone doesn't think something is valuable --> completely not having value to other people is an idea which seems to be much more amplified when it comes to Apple products.

When I look to buy a new computer I am going to look for that list of things I want in a computer. Those items matter to me. When I bought this machine, there were no comparable Windows laptops which were close to the value Apple provided. Perhaps it will not be the case that Apple laptops are the best value. I know of no other way I can impact as many hours of my life positively with $150/year as choosing a Mac vs Windows does.

And for what it's worth, I think iPhone/iPads are a huge waste of money compared to the plethora of Android devices available.

+1

First of all, I don't put much stock in what/who is or is not mustachian. It's all relative. Secondly, in my case, I'm coming up on four years' ownership of my newest Mac, which gets heavy use for many hours every day, and is in fine shape. That's pretty good.

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #79 on: March 15, 2015, 10:16:13 PM »
Macs last a long time, and maybe longer than an average PC, but PCs can last longer. The advantage of macs is that they are relatively high-end hardware when they are new, so there's not much planned obsolescence built in. The disadvantage is that they are not supported as long as Windows.

My parents had a 2003 Dell workstation that they retired last year (replaced with a late 2008 Macbook Pro). It came with Windows XP, and they got rid of it shortly after XP was no longer supported for various reasons, not just the lack of updates. It was top of the line in 2003, and the equivalent mac would have been a Power Mac G5. I never had a PowerPC Mac, so I don't know for sure, but I get the impression that support for them was phased out a while ago after the switch to Intel, and no one is compiling dual binary software any more.

I am typing this on an early 2008 Macbook Pro (pre-unibody, best Macbook Pro they ever made IMO). I'm still running 10.6.8, and I've read bad things about putting any newer OS on this model. But 10.6.8 is no longer supported, and a lot of new software won't run on it. I don't need to run a lot of software, but at some point something I need will no longer work. Or maybe I'll get frustrated with the slowness. The old Core 2 Duo is a bit slow at processing photos, and sometimes it runs out of RAM (maxed out at 6GB).

An equivalent Windows mobile workstation, such as a Dell Precision from 2008 would have come with XP or Vista. I would have run XP, but it would have been designed for Vista. Anything that can run Vista can run Windows 7 just as well, so I would be running Windows 7 right now if I had the PC equivalent, and Windows 7 is still supported just fine because windows 8 isn't that good.

I also have a desktop PC that I built. It's hard to say when it's from because it's a mix of parts. I got a Core 2 Quad LGA775 processor, DDR2 RAM, and compatible motherboard as that technology was being phased out in 2009. I got a great deal on all the parts, but it's more like high end 2006 technology or mid range 2009 technology. I upgraded the GPU at some point, and it happily runs Windows 7. I think I spent around $1000. The equivalent system at the time was probably a Mac Mini, but those are not upgradeable, so it would be nearly obsolete now.

Longevity aside, I prefer Macs over PCs because I can work more efficiently on them (or at least the old ones. With recent updates it seems like they've been making things inconsistent, which is frustrating. I can't think of any specific examples right now). With my PC I'm often fighting the OS to get it to do what I want. For example, my desktop has a bad case of insomnia. I put it to sleep (even hibernate), and it randomly wakes up, which in turn wakes me up in the middle of the night. I've disabled literally everything I can think of that might wake it up, and I've checked the logs when it wakes up and there's no sign of the cause. I disabled scheduled tasks and services, Wake on LAN, the ability for any hardware device to wake it up, the ability for the mouse and keyboard to wake it up, etc. The only sure way to keep it off is to shutdown, but that's annoying because I have to close everything.

I'd love to replace this Macbook Pro and my desktop PC with a new Mac, but I can't justify the price. As long as these still work, I don't need anything else yet, so I'll wait. I think I'll hold out for the next update to the retina iMac, or longer.

jzb11

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #80 on: March 16, 2015, 04:46:01 AM »
Two options for PCs:

http://blog.laptopmag.com/asus-ux305-vs-macbook

http://www.laptopmag.com/reviews/laptops/asus-zenbook-ux305

http://www.techradar.com/us/reviews/pc-mac/laptops-portable-pcs/laptops-and-netbooks/dell-xps-13-2015-1279013/review

A refurbished Mac book air for 700-800 USD isn't a bad option either. Though I'm not sure what your costs are in EU.

Nonetheless you can find a quality pc ultrabook. I think you may be able to find an affordable refurbished macbook air as well.

Windows laptops will certainly offer more value.

GuitarStv

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #81 on: March 17, 2015, 10:19:59 AM »
Well, that comparison doesn't really work for computers. Streets won't become faster or more difficult to drive on with time.

Streets around here get slower and more difficult to drive on ...

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libertarian4321

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #83 on: March 18, 2015, 02:33:35 AM »
I always think that a mac or any apple product, is worth it in the long run.

I have gone in and out of the eco-system many times over the years but I always look forward to returning to apple products, regardless of the price.

They just work.

Seriously?  That sounds like the kind of RATIONALIZATION people use to OVERPAY for Mercedes, Prada, or (insert name of overpriced "Prestige" brand here).

Look, if you want to impress your friends, buy Mercedes, Apple, Prada.

If you just want to get the job done for a reasonable price, and are not trying to impress your friends and relatives, DO NOT BUY Mercedes/Apple/Prada.

Yeah, that $2,000 MacBook Pro "just works." 

But so does that $249 laptop from Dell or whatever.

I was an Apple user in the '80s, been a PC guy ever since.  I no longer see the need to overpay to be "cool."  Or maybe I'd just rather be a multimillionaire than be "cool."

This message typed on a 7-year old Dell notebook that cost me $399 in late 2007.  It'll probably still be going strong 3 years from now.

Works just fine.  Nothing fancy, just chugs along.

Can someone explain to me why I need a $2,000+ "iwhateverthehell"?

And yeah, I realize, I'm not "iCool."  I'll just have to learn to live with it, lol.

Look, if you want a "hey, look at me, I'm iCool" machine, go ahead and by the Iwhateverthehell from Apple.  But just realize it's a vanity choice, not a practical choice.

My wife drives a Beemer.  It's a "hey, look at me, my car is cooler than yours" car.   Cars are her non-frugal weak spot.  We both realize it, and that's okay- no one is perfect :) .

She doesn't bull sh*t herself into believing it's the "practical" choice.  Just don't lie to yourself and tell yourself that you "need" the Apple/Beemer/Prada, because you DO NOT. 

The less flashy brands will do just fine, for far less money.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2015, 02:41:54 AM by libertarian4321 »

jzb11

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #84 on: March 18, 2015, 08:25:11 AM »
I always think that a mac or any apple product, is worth it in the long run.

I have gone in and out of the eco-system many times over the years but I always look forward to returning to apple products, regardless of the price.

They just work.

Seriously?  That sounds like the kind of RATIONALIZATION people use to OVERPAY for Mercedes, Prada, or (insert name of overpriced "Prestige" brand here).

Look, if you want to impress your friends, buy Mercedes, Apple, Prada.

If you just want to get the job done for a reasonable price, and are not trying to impress your friends and relatives, DO NOT BUY Mercedes/Apple/Prada.

Yeah, that $2,000 MacBook Pro "just works." 

But so does that $249 laptop from Dell or whatever.

I was an Apple user in the '80s, been a PC guy ever since.  I no longer see the need to overpay to be "cool."  Or maybe I'd just rather be a multimillionaire than be "cool."

This message typed on a 7-year old Dell notebook that cost me $399 in late 2007.  It'll probably still be going strong 3 years from now.

Works just fine.  Nothing fancy, just chugs along.

Can someone explain to me why I need a $2,000+ "iwhateverthehell"?

And yeah, I realize, I'm not "iCool."  I'll just have to learn to live with it, lol.

Look, if you want a "hey, look at me, I'm iCool" machine, go ahead and by the Iwhateverthehell from Apple.  But just realize it's a vanity choice, not a practical choice.

My wife drives a Beemer.  It's a "hey, look at me, my car is cooler than yours" car.   Cars are her non-frugal weak spot.  We both realize it, and that's okay- no one is perfect :) .

She doesn't bull sh*t herself into believing it's the "practical" choice.  Just don't lie to yourself and tell yourself that you "need" the Apple/Beemer/Prada, because you DO NOT. 

The less flashy brands will do just fine, for far less money.

There certainly are less flashy brands that will offer similar performance for less money.

On the PC side I believe apple makes some of the best laptops. The build quality, weight/size, and screen quality/resolution are excellent. As is the customer service. If something goes wrong with your PC you can take into a store and have it diagnosed/repaired instead of sent off in the mail. Their phone/remote support is excellent as well. I've had a few remote sessions myself.

With that said if you're just typing and web surfing, almost any laptop will do. So the question is what are your needs? How much performance do you need? How mobile will you be with the laptop? Do you prefer a larger screen or a smaller screen?

Usually you can find a windows equivalent at a lower price. Sometimes they're closer in price more than you'd think.

RootofGood

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #85 on: March 18, 2015, 08:40:56 AM »
I just bought a $258 Acer laptop for my mom since she's retiring and losing her work lappie.  Windows 8.1, pretty boring stats (quad core, 4 GB ram, non-ssd HD of 0.5 or 1 TB).  Perfect if all you do is surf the web, watch youtube, netflix, basic word processing, online billpay, facebook, etc (in other words, what my mom uses it for).  Beautiful display, 7 hr battery life, keyboard feels very sturdy and responsive.  I was honestly surprised at how awesome this little computer was. 

I'll also mention that I was interviewed on a video podcast yesterday.  I used my off the shelf el cheapo Dell laptop for the video and stock speakers and mic.  The interviewer said my audio sounded amazing and assumed I had a professional studio with high quality mic and windscreen.  Nope, just a $220 basic laptop with stock components.

Moral:  You get a lot in the sub $300 laptop market these days.  The one thing I haven't seen is an ultralight ultracheap laptop.  My mom's new laptop and my two relatively new laptops weigh between 4.75 and 5 lb (2-2.25 kg).  Not a big deal unless you're on the go constantly.  In that case, ditch the full size screen and go with something closer to 13" for a ~3 lb machine (for which you will pay more). 

3okirb

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #86 on: March 18, 2015, 09:11:57 AM »
I understand you're trying to talk yourself into a Mac, but let me try to talk you out of it.

1) For the same specs, you're paying 75% too much.  Most people don't compare apples to apples, so they think the Mac performs better, but it doesn't when compared to like machines.
2)  Unless you're going into a graphic design/architecture type field, your Mac runs a high risk of not being compatible.
3)  There are viruses that affect Macs and PCs and if you're smart, you'll have anti virus software either way.
4)  The screens on some of the new laptops (IPS) can actually be higher resolution than a Mac laptop.
5)  Every PC laptop I've had has lasted over 5 years and many have lasted much longer.
6)  Replacement batteries for a PC are CHEAP and easy to do yourself.
7)  Any replacement part is cheaper for a PC and most can be done yourself if you're technically inclined.

The only thing redeeming about the Mac is the resale value, but like you said, you're getting away from consumerism, so you should be looking to use it for it's entire useable life if possible.

Just make sure you get a laptop with a  Synaptics touchpad and an IPS screen and you'll be just as happy and have way more money left.  Also, if you don't already, check out slickdeals.net to see if there are any current deals out there.

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #87 on: March 25, 2015, 09:50:50 AM »
Can someone point me to a laptop that stacks up against this :

Refurbished 13.3-inch MacBook Pro 2.5GHz Dual-core Intel i5
Originally released June 2012
13.3-inch (diagonal) LED-backlit glossy widescreen display, 1280-by-800 resolution
4GB (2 x 2GB) of 1600MHz DDR3 SDRAM
500GB Serial ATA @ 5400 rpm1
8x double-layer SuperDrive (DVDR DL/DVDRW/CD-RW)
Intel HD Graphics 4000

Refurb'ed price is $829 shipped to my door.

What can I get from the PC world that stacks up?

Must be well built and sturdy like the aluminum MBP.
Must have a robust power and peripheral input setup like the Mac mag-safe.
Must have USB3 like the MBP.
Must have a reasonably crisp, high-res display like the MPB.
Must have a sturdy, usable keyboard and pointing surface.

Beat this. Show me the err of my ways. We'll ignore the pain in the ass that Windows 8.whatever is these days and talk strictly hardware. Show me a well built clone laptop that I can get for under $8-900.

jzb11

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #88 on: March 25, 2015, 10:23:01 AM »
Can someone point me to a laptop that stacks up against this :

Refurbished 13.3-inch MacBook Pro 2.5GHz Dual-core Intel i5
Originally released June 2012
13.3-inch (diagonal) LED-backlit glossy widescreen display, 1280-by-800 resolution
4GB (2 x 2GB) of 1600MHz DDR3 SDRAM
500GB Serial ATA @ 5400 rpm1
8x double-layer SuperDrive (DVDR DL/DVDRW/CD-RW)
Intel HD Graphics 4000

Refurb'ed price is $829 shipped to my door.

What can I get from the PC world that stacks up?

Must be well built and sturdy like the aluminum MBP.
Must have a robust power and peripheral input setup like the Mac mag-safe.
Must have USB3 like the MBP.
Must have a reasonably crisp, high-res display like the MPB.
Must have a sturdy, usable keyboard and pointing surface.

Beat this. Show me the err of my ways. We'll ignore the pain in the ass that Windows 8.whatever is these days and talk strictly hardware. Show me a well built clone laptop that I can get for under $8-900.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00SGS7ZH4/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_1?pf_rd_p=1944687602&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B00RY4X8A4&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=12AV208T69TM3A03934N

http://www.dell.com/us/p/xps-13-9343-laptop/pd

To be honest, both are better options than the standard 13 macbook pro in terms of portability/weight/height. They also have SSDs which blow away HDDs in performance.

http://store.apple.com/us/product/GD760LL/B/refurbished-macbook-air-14ghz-dual-core-intel-core-i5

- That macbook air for $759 is hard to beat and is a better option than all of the above (unless you need the 8gb of ram and more storage space).

With that said your point is noted. It is difficult to find an ultrabook type computer (alumininum construction, light weight, sturdy/well built, SSD) for less than 700.

You can find a funcitonal laptop, but there is something to be said about a $700-$1000 laptop vs a $300-$500 laptop.

I think in the 700-1200 range, if you're considering refurbished, windows laptops aren't necessarily a better value.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2015, 10:28:11 AM by jzb11 »

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #89 on: March 25, 2015, 11:45:40 AM »
Beat this. Show me the err of my ways.

I'll play.

Lenovo Thinkpad T420, refurbished (Arrow Direct) plus a used USB3.0 Thinkpad Mini Dock (433715U). Approximately $350 for everything. Nigh indestructible, built like a tank. Twice the RAM, and it only falls short on the USB 3.0 front on the portable end only (not a huge deal), but gets in compensation a fantastic dock that converts the laptop into a full-fledged desktop just by dropping it in, and the HDD is a bit smaller at 320GB... but for an extra $265, you could dump in a 512GB Samsung 850 Pro SSD which is trivial to do with a Thinkpad (you can't even use a third party SSD with TRIM support enabled under OSX 10.9+ without breaking critical OS security). Could easily do the full shebang for under $650, and it'd absolutely decimate that Macbook's performance for $200 less.

77rider

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #90 on: March 25, 2015, 11:46:10 AM »
You can find a funcitonal laptop, but there is something to be said about a $700-$1000 laptop vs a $300-$500 laptop.

I think in the 700-1200 range, if you're considering refurbished, windows laptops aren't necessarily a better value.

Overall I agree entirely. Apple's refurb store is usually my first and last stop when shopping. If they don't have what I'm after available refurb, I usually hold off buying anything.

But I'm really impressed with what you linked. The Asus gives me pause. I bought an Asus hyper portable/tablet and it is complete junk. The touch and control surfaces are so unspeakably horrible. I would want to touch and feel one. But that's a damned good answer you posted. Well done.

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #91 on: March 25, 2015, 12:26:06 PM »
Beat this. Show me the err of my ways.

I'll play.

Lenovo Thinkpad T420, refurbished (Arrow Direct) plus a used USB3.0 Thinkpad Mini Dock (433715U). Approximately $350 for everything. Nigh indestructible, built like a tank. Twice the RAM, and it only falls short on the USB 3.0 front on the portable end only (not a huge deal), but gets in compensation a fantastic dock that converts the laptop into a full-fledged desktop just by dropping it in, and the HDD is a bit smaller at 320GB... but for an extra $265, you could dump in a 512GB Samsung 850 Pro SSD which is trivial to do with a Thinkpad (you can't even use a third party SSD with TRIM support enabled under OSX 10.9+ without breaking critical OS security). Could easily do the full shebang for under $650, and it'd absolutely decimate that Macbook's performance for $200 less.

Thinkpad loses for me based on pointing/tracking device which was a must have by the poster. 
Last thinkpad I had was horrible although this may have improved.    I travel a lot so it's a biggie for me and don't want to have to carry a mouse around.

Daley

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #92 on: March 25, 2015, 12:44:46 PM »
Thinkpad loses for me based on pointing/tracking device which was a must have by the poster. 
Last thinkpad I had was horrible although this may have improved.    I travel a lot so it's a biggie for me and don't want to have to carry a mouse around.

The T420 has both the trackstick and an excellent Synaptics trackpad. Win/win.

GuitarStv

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #93 on: March 25, 2015, 01:31:42 PM »
Thinkpad loses for me based on pointing/tracking device which was a must have by the poster. 
Last thinkpad I had was horrible although this may have improved.    I travel a lot so it's a biggie for me and don't want to have to carry a mouse around.

The T420 has both the trackstick and an excellent Synaptics trackpad. Win/win.

As the IT guy put it when he handed me a T430 . . .

"Stroke the box until your finger gets tired and then finish off your work on the little red nub."

superone!

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #94 on: March 25, 2015, 07:35:48 PM »
I'm kinda in the same boat, or will be in the next few years.

I'm currently typing on a mid 2007 macbook (the black one, not a pro) that I received new as a gift when I finished my master's degree almost 8 years ago. I've upgraded the RAM since then, and late last year I put in a solid state hard drive, and I fully expect this machine to last me another 3 years. That said, when she finally goes, I probably want another mac.

My only question is new or used. Used makes more sense to me, but I got a *lot* out of the 3 year apple care on this machine. My motherboard burned out, and my hard drive failed (might've been my fault, from a drop), both within the warranty period, so the apple care paid for itself. No computer is buy it for life, but I'm pretty happy with the cult of mac for quality of product and service getting repairs, and I'm pretty hard on my stuff. I went through 3 computers in 4 years before this machine.

jgold723

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #95 on: March 25, 2015, 08:58:25 PM »
I use Apple products for my business for one reason only -- they are consistently more reliable and have less downtime than comparable Windows machines. I don't have to scan everyday for viruses, spyware and adware. I just start it up and work.

Every person I know who uses a Windows machine is always complaining about having to deal with viruses, the blue screen of death, etc. If I multiplied my billable rate by the amount of time I would spend fiddling with a Windows machine to keep it working, the cost of that lost productivity would more than overwhelm any savings I might have by buying the cheaper computer.

That said, Apple products aren't inherently immune to all the woes of Windows machines -- it's just that their market share is small enough that they don't seem to interest the hacking community. But that could change and Apple might lose that edge.

But until that happens, I'm sticking with Apple.

Yeah, it hurts to pay twice the cost, but again, I figure I get it back in productivity.


m8547

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #96 on: March 26, 2015, 10:09:40 PM »
2)  Unless you're going into a graphic design/architecture type field, your Mac runs a high risk of not being compatible.
3)  There are viruses that affect Macs and PCs and if you're smart, you'll have anti virus software either way.

2. Most people only need web browsing and some other basic software these days, and the amount of mac software has increased as they've gained market share in the past few years. I have numerous ways (VMWare Fusion, Wine, Bootcamp, remote into a Windows PC) to run Windows stuff on my mac, but I rarely have to any more. Last time I did was to use the scan tool software for my car, but most people don't need that.

3. If you're smart you don't need antivirus software on either. I don't use it on my PC any more, not even the free Microsoft Security Essentials. It was slowing it down too much. I'm careful about what I download and what sites I go to, and if I get bad luck I guess I'll just reinstall the OS. I don't mind taking the risk.

I wasted an hour on my work computer today updating it and waiting for it to reboot. My mac is no longer supported, so there are no more updates! But even when there were, they were generally quick to install. I don't use my PC at home as much as my mac, but every time I do it needs updates. There are other frustrating things, for example today Excel got lost on the invisible third monitor (I only have two monitors). I quit and opened a new spreadsheet several times, but eventually I had to change the screen resolution to bring it back. I can't think of a time when I've had a similar problem on my mac. My work PC gets sluggish after a while from having too many things open. I think the Aero interface gets clogged up somewhere, and I end up having to reboot. I can often go months on my mac without rebooting, though after a while it does help clean up after programs that leak memory.  The weekly required virus scans slow down my work PC significantly, and they will never find anything. Over a year these things add up to measurable time, and unmeasurable frustration.

I've used Windows and Mac extensively, but I can work more efficiently on macs.

Macs are high-end hardware sold at a premium, with a premium OS. PCs are available on a wide range of hardware, and sometimes the low-end models give them a bad name. The OS is OK, but not the best. Instead of refining Windows 7 and improving it, they add unnecessary junk in Windows 8. I guess Apple is doing that too, but I've skipped everything after 10.6.8 just like I've skipped everything after Windows 7. Maybe Windows 10 will be better.

An example of a frustrating feature of Windows 7 is the control panel. I grew up with Windows 98 through Windows XP, and the windows XP control panel buttons are burned in my memory. Add/remove programs, Printers and Faxes, and Device Manager are some of the common ones. In Windows 7 there's Device Manager and Devices and Printers. The difference is not clear, and there's too much stuff going on in the icons for them to be useful. Plus, if I try to use the search bar to get to one of them quickly, I have to type "Devices..." or "Device M..." to get the right one. On a Mac, the first three letters of all the system control boxes are unique, and in fact the first two letters of all the built-in ones are unique, at least on mine. And, while the icons are not the most useful, most of them have different visual content, so it's easy remember the one you want and find it at a glance. The Windows ones are all round glassy silver with a lot of stuff going on. Why do Folder Options and Default Location have check boxes in the icon, and Administrative Tools has two!? None of the other ones have it, even though these are all options. Date and Time, Recovery, and Regional and Language options all have clocks, and they are all set to three o'clock. Why? On a mac, Date & Time and Time Machine both have clocks, but the Time Machine icon is much different (and set for four or five o'clock).  On a mac you can type approximately what you want on the system control window search bar, and it highlights relevant buttons. With Windows you have to know exactly what it's called. For example, on a mac you can type power and it highlights Energy Saver. It's little details like that which make a mac less frustrating to use for me.

Edit: Forgot to add that the icons in the Windows control panel may be in a different place depending on the size of the window. The only way to get an alphabetical list is to make the window tall and really narrow. The mac system control doesn't let you resize it, so they are always in the same place.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 10:13:52 PM by m8547 »

Chuck

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #97 on: March 26, 2015, 10:46:07 PM »
I just bought my wife a Macbook Pro for her programming hobby. Refurbished, and with the education discount.

Paid 1000 bucks for around 600-700 bucks worth of PC, but with a better screen and PCIe storage. Also the knowledge that all components are of high quality backed by a great warranty.

Pricey, and certainly a luxury. Hardly a ripoff though.

DarinC

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Re: Can't deside - should I really NOT buy a Mac again?
« Reply #98 on: March 27, 2015, 12:38:30 AM »
Beat this. Show me the err of my ways.

I'll play.

Lenovo Thinkpad T420, refurbished (Arrow Direct) plus a used USB3.0 Thinkpad Mini Dock (433715U). Approximately $350 for everything. Nigh indestructible, built like a tank. Twice the RAM, and it only falls short on the USB 3.0 front on the portable end only (not a huge deal), but gets in compensation a fantastic dock that converts the laptop into a full-fledged desktop just by dropping it in, and the HDD is a bit smaller at 320GB... but for an extra $265, you could dump in a 512GB Samsung 850 Pro SSD which is trivial to do with a Thinkpad (you can't even use a third party SSD with TRIM support enabled under OSX 10.9+ without breaking critical OS security). Could easily do the full shebang for under $650, and it'd absolutely decimate that Macbook's performance for $200 less.
I wouldn't say the T420 would decimate an Air performance wise. A new 13.3 Air with the i5-4350U is slightly better than the i5-2520M on passmark, and an HD5000 is more or less twice the HD3000.

The Thinkpad would have double the ram and four time the storage with a 512GB SSD, so anything that requires a lot of onboard storage or usage of swap/pagefile would be better there (Although the Air apparently has better 4k-64 reads/writes for some reason http://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-MacBook-Air-13-MD761D-B-2014-06-Notebook-Review-Update.119805.0.html).

On the other hand, the T420 is twice the size, and with an older battery, it probably won't go much above ~3 hours versus 10+ from a new Air. The Air tends to be more aesthetically appealing to people, and in general Apple does a good job tuning OSX compared to windows.

All told, it depends on what someone wants, but I don't see a clear winner comparing a refurb T420 with a 512GB SSD for $650 to a new MB Air for $680.

http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/expired-deals/1432171/

Not to say there aren't plenty of Apple products that aren't crazy expensive and not really worthwhile. But that's not always the case.

Shoot, if I were to spend $650 on computer hardware, I'd go with a refurb HP 14" chromebook ($180) with a 128GB SSD ($65) for my laptop, and build an AMD desktop ($25 80+ PSU, $20 case, $120 FX-8320E proc/mobo, $30 128GB SSD, $60 1TB HD, and 8GB of ram ($55)) for all the heavy lifting.

The chromebook would have better mobility than the T420 and the desktop would be ~3x faster than those 2 laptops. All with ~$60-$100 left in my pocket, plus the option to upgrade my desktop ~5 years down the road and being able to reuse at least some of the components. But that's just me... YMMV and all that. ;)

jzb11

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