Author Topic: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money  (Read 21552 times)

Felipe

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Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« on: April 18, 2015, 04:34:36 PM »
Hi,

I'm 22 and recently shared my financial goals with my girlfriend of about a year, I told her I've started gaining some momentum and I'm excited about aiming to save 80% of my income while I finish college. I showed her my investment accounts (under 50k then) and encouraged her to open an account and begin saving.

Since that, we broke up as we deeply don't trust eachother. We talk off and on till one day she blocks my number for having a cute girl at my house, she calls the next day calls me saying she's been looking into laser eye surgery but doesn't have enough to cover it without pulling out of her emergency fund. She mentions that my parents bought me laser as a gift so she wants to know if I can gift her 2000 for half of that till she can pay me back with financial aid money in September. I genuinely consider it and come to think it ridiculous when she knows how frugal I am and that she already cash has enough saved for it if she needs it. She can simply wait till December and do it without debt. I feel she's starting to think my money is her money.

She moves the loan down to 1000 and I say no, I've made my mind clear about not "loaning" her money, if I did give her money it'd be a gift, not a business loan. So I ask her about what the interest on the "loan" she had in mind was. She flips and tells me it's disgusting for me to consider charging her interest. She's in debt to her dad, her aunt, and the government(student loans) already with no intention to pay for several years till her full-time engineering job.

She accuses me of being so cheap and uncaring, she'd give me the money if I needed it, she's given me so much and she expects the same care back. Looking at mint, I realize she's my largest expense most months because we cook and travel together and I cover most of that. I smelled a manipulation attempt as I've treated her well, listened, massaged, cooked, and helped her feel like a uniquely amazing, special woman, my frugality was her only complaint. She ends up getting her ex-boss she's "not dating" to "loan" her funds.

In my gut I feel like I dodged a bullet. Same feeling of loss from a break up but more relief.

My question is- How do I deal with revealing/hiding my wealth to lovers and friends when they are in debt or haven't begun saving? And how do I screen for people who'd otherwise be chill becoming golddiggers when they find out about my beginning wealth?
I feel awkward hiding and I love teaching people the joy and efficiency of frugality+investing yet don't want the resentment or financial predators that come with having begun accumulating wealth.

Thank you for your help,
-Felipe
« Last Edit: April 18, 2015, 04:37:36 PM by Felipe »

Exflyboy

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2015, 04:44:30 PM »
Well your doing the right thing.. I sadly did not in almost the same situation and of course I will never get paid back.. She filed bankruptcy and life has been hard to her and blah blah blah

Anyway after 10 years I have to suck it up.

So yeah, your not married to this chick and she is trying to use you.. Don't do it. I never loan money to anybody after this last episode.

Felipe

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2015, 05:02:25 PM »

Exflyboy: Sorry to hear that about your losses. I lost 2000 and a friend a while back over a loan so I took the lesson then on loaning to friends/lovers.  Happy you could help me feel a bit more secure in knowing it was her trying to manipulate me.

Dmy0013: Never mention the numbers- that's the piece I was missing in sharing my love for saving and efficiency. I feel the temptation to share the numbers as I'm excited about it but I gotta shift into being quieter there till it gets serious.

frugaliknowit

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2015, 05:38:17 PM »
Echo DMY0013

Unless and until you are marrying or becoming life partners where you will be commingling, keep the specifics of your finances private.  Lesson learned.  Good job, btw!!

midweststache

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2015, 05:41:33 PM »
Dmy0013: Never mention the numbers- that's the piece I was missing in sharing my love for saving and efficiency. I feel the temptation to share the numbers as I'm excited about it but I gotta shift into being quieter there till it gets serious.

This.

I didn't come to MMM until after BF and I had been together for 4+ years. I'm lucky, in that he's always been pretty frugal and made good financial choices; if I was dating around, I wouldn't share financial details (hard numbers) until you're combining lives (moving in together, getting married, etc.)

I think you can talk in broad strokes, which will help you establish compatibility in the future, but until you're doing more than splitting the bill for dinner or buying each other birthday gifts, I wouldn't divulge specifics...

Felipe

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2015, 06:44:34 PM »
And suddenly I feel peace about sharing less numbers with others.

Thank you for the quick help. Here's what I've gotten.

My original question-How do I deal with revealing/hiding my wealth to lovers and friends when they are in debt or haven't begun saving? How do I screen for people who'd otherwise be chill becoming golddiggers when they find out about my beginning wealth?

I can do this by sharing my principles, not my numbers, seeing whether we mesh, whether they're open to or violently against spending less than earnings and foregoing waning luxuries for enduring financial independence. Never mention those numbers, just see if they enjoy frugality, building, learning, nature and all that with me or not.

If they ever want money, loan, any of that- run before it becomes a pattern.

Snow White

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2015, 06:52:13 PM »
I am a big fan of being who you are all the time with everyone and life will sort out those who are attracted to the real you.  I would be as upfront as you can be with friends and potential love interests that you are frugal and interested in maximizing saving and investing for your future.  That includes gently letting them know you are not saving to invest in their schemes, dreams, and lack of planning.  You don't need to share your numbers with anyone until you are ready for a long term commitment and by then you should know if you and your sweetie share the same values.

This situation might have created a short term heartache for you but undoubtedly saved you a bigger pain in the future with her.  Good luck!

MrsPete

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2015, 06:55:45 PM »
I did something similar when I was in college.  I had a long-term boyfriend whom I assumed I would marry.  We had sort of a whoever-has-money-pays philosophy about going out, but it didn't take me too long to realize that he was spending all of his money on crap ... and then spending mine too.  The irony was that he had so much more than I did! 

If a girlfriend NEEDED eye glasses and had no way to get them, I think it might be right for a long-time boyfriend to step up and help with that moderate expense ... but lasik surgery?  No.  That's a luxury, and an expensive one, at that!

astvilla

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2015, 06:55:57 PM »
[removed]

I agree with sharing principles and certain lifestyle choices. If someone sees that they know what kind of person you are.

On the other hand, revealing all the numbers at the end and having it backfire could make all that time wasted and you might feel more pressure to continue the relationship because of the time together even though you find out later that she will use you as a checking account to play around and fool around with other people.

But revealing at the beginning means you won't know if she is continuing the relationship because she knows about the hard numbers.

I agree with the others. Live by certain principles, speak vaguely, and see if the other person's values match your own and always get prenups. That's why most Mustachians prefer prenups, because all of us can be fooled by another at some point, even the person who "loves" you.

MOD NOTE: Discourse and questioning is encouraged, however, please refrain from making sweeping statements that are based on gender stereotyping.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 09:48:19 AM by fewaopi »

okits

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2015, 07:11:24 PM »
You're too open with information.  Have some other hobbies to talk about with people unless you know for sure they are into frugality and investing.  You're advertising yourself as a piggy bank for anyone within earshot.

Don't reveal financial details until your relationship gets serious and you're considering a long-term partnership with legal and financial responsibilities. Observe their behaviour. You want someone hard-working and independent who has frugal habits and a good relationship with money. You can even ask, "would you be willing to live a life of reduced consumption to retire sooner?" "What would you give up to be FI?"

Realize, also, that you must make frugality in your mate a priority and have a variety of things to offer as a partner. I've met people where the only thing going for them is that they're rich. If that's what you put out as "this is why you should be with me", don't be surprised when you only get gold diggers.


Krnten

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2015, 08:19:24 PM »
No need to share anything til you're talking marriage.  You'll get a sense soon in a new relationship whether she's gonna be compatible with you financially.  I had a boyfriend once who had literally zero savings.  He was always talking about how he was broke.  We worked together and made about the same.  He didn't use the 401(k), no roth, not even a savings acct.  it became clear to me pretty soon that it would not last.  I really loved him but he was terrible with $ and there's no way I'd have wanted to nag him about it long run. You'll probably just "know" when's the right time to share.

My husband and I talked marriage and finances early on and I could see we were roughly on the same page.  We even combined before marriage.

ENL

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2015, 08:23:09 PM »
It's hard to say, I have a similar question. It just seems so many women these days feel entitled to all the money from their partner. Coming to MMM helps me refresh the fact that not all women are like that and sometimes it's the opposite where the man has no self-control and the women is trying to maintain finances. Always one exploiting the other. Likely more females exploit but certainly not all.

This is extremely offensive.

Megma

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2015, 08:55:40 PM »
It's hard to say, I have a similar question. It just seems so many women these days feel entitled to all the money from their partner. Coming to MMM helps me refresh the fact that not all women are like that and sometimes it's the opposite where the man has no self-control and the women is trying to maintain finances. Always one exploiting the other. Likely more females exploit but certainly not all.

This is extremely offensive.

+1 to that being offensive. Wasn't there a poll on MMM showing that more than half the forum participants were women? Clearly it's not "likely" that more than half of us are just after you dudes for your money.

electriceagle

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2015, 10:34:11 PM »
Congratulations on learning this lesson at 22!

A fair amount of financial responsibility is about attitude. You don't have to wait until you show someone your investment account statement to evaluate their attitude towards personal responsibility.

When you meet someone, think about how they view their problems. Do they frequently complain that their parents, their boss, the government, corporations, or the world has done them wrong? If so, odds are that they won't mesh with Mustachian style values. (Unless they got hit by a truly serious black swan along the way.)

Exflyboy

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2015, 11:37:00 PM »
It's hard to say, I have a similar question. It just seems so many women these days feel entitled to all the money from their partner. Coming to MMM helps me refresh the fact that not all women are like that and sometimes it's the opposite where the man has no self-control and the women is trying to maintain finances. Always one exploiting the other. Likely more females exploit but certainly not all.

This is extremely offensive.

+2 this is not cool!.... :(

Argyle

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2015, 11:55:23 PM »
+3. 

The fact is that if you're mustachian, you probably have some savings.  And if you have some savings and you get together with someone who's not mustachian, they may well spend all their money and then look hopefully to you as a source of money.  Because their approach is to spend until they run out.  If you were also that type, you'd both be spending like crazy.  Since you're not, they think, "There's more money to spend!  Let's do it!"  In other words, I don't see it so much as sponging, more like "There's money left!  Time to spend!"

Of course it's extravagant and will make them broke quickly.  But as a woman, I can guarantee that there's a also a good supply of men whose eyes light up when they find a woman with money, and who'd be happy to use up that money.  Those people should find the extravagant women and get together and spend to their hearts' content, and meanwhile mustachians can befriend each other.

RunHappy

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2015, 02:22:53 AM »
Dating while stashing can be difficult.  I would say that unless you have put a ring on her finger and are talking about all the things married people should talk about before marriage, you do not need to disclose your actual numbers.  Honestly this goes for men and women on the site.  it is also good to talk about the concepts of money and how people treat money pretty early on, but actual numbers none of their business.


NICE!

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2015, 03:32:16 AM »
Easy and early lesson, my friend. You weren't in deep and you're young. Good for you. Now go have fun.

And yeah, don't let on too much of your financial picture until you are pretty sure you have long-term potential.

andreamac

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2015, 05:32:24 AM »
About the women stereotyping. I've found this website and introduced it to my husband. I make twice my husband's salary and I am the main thrifty person :) We aren't back in the 1950's anymore!

As per the question, I agree with everyone else that you dodged a bullet. I've only made one loan and it was for my sister's wedding. She repaid me back after the wedding but if I had to do it again, I would say no unless they absolutely needed money and then I would make it a gift. Losing friends and family over a loan isn't worth the risk in my eyes. My dad doesn't talk to a sister over a loan so it happens!

KBecks2

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2015, 06:09:44 AM »
I think you will get to know someone for a while before you share your financials.  Maybe a year or more.  If they are content doing simple things and if you talk about saving generally and they are cool with it, then you are doing well.  Do not show your accounts until you are quite serious about the person as a life partner. 

AmbitiousCanuck

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2015, 06:24:56 AM »
I don't see what good hiding your finances from your partner, "until marriage" or whatever, would do.  If the person feels entitled to your money, they are still going to feel entitled to it when you are married, and then you are already trapped in a serious relationship.

Personally, I would tell them fairly quick into the relationship that I have substantial savings and see how they react.  If they suddenly start acting like I need to pay for everything, or ask for money, well there is a big red flag.  Better to find these things out earlier than later.  And besides, hiding things from a partner is not a good way to start a long-term relationship.

2ndTimer

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2015, 08:02:22 AM »
Personally, I would tell them fairly quick into the relationship that I have substantial savings and see how they react.  If they suddenly start acting like I need to pay for everything, or ask for money, well there is a big red flag.  Better to find these things out earlier than later.  And besides, hiding things from a partner is not a good way to start a long-term relationship.

Exactly what I would have said if I had been so eloquent.

sheepstache

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2015, 09:33:47 AM »
She blocked your number for having a cute girl at your house and then demanded money. This isn't a frugality mismatch problem, this is an immature ghetto drama queen problem. You don't need that kind of person.

James

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2015, 09:47:10 AM »
I would definitely count it as a win, you dodged a bullet and found out enough about her to avoid getting tangled up in her financial woes.


But as you look back would you have seen the same thing (if you had been watching carefully) even without the financial disclosure and loan request? I just assume you can find those issues based on general behavior and discussion, but curious if that was true in your case as you look back.


astvilla

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2015, 09:47:18 AM »
+3. 

The fact is that if you're mustachian, you probably have some savings.  And if you have some savings and you get together with someone who's not mustachian, they may well spend all their money and then look hopefully to you as a source of money.  Because their approach is to spend until they run out.  If you were also that type, you'd both be spending like crazy.  Since you're not, they think, "There's more money to spend!  Let's do it!"  In other words, I don't see it so much as sponging, more like "There's money left!  Time to spend!"

Of course it's extravagant and will make them broke quickly.  But as a woman, I can guarantee that there's a also a good supply of men whose eyes light up when they find a woman with money, and who'd be happy to use up that money.  Those people should find the extravagant women and get together and spend to their hearts' content, and meanwhile mustachians can befriend each other.

My apologies to those who might have been offended, I think some of my words were misinterpreted or I didn't make myself clear enough.

There's a societal stereotype that women tend to be more the gold digger than men. I don't know how accurate that is but I know in the Mustachian community, all of us, men and women are clearly not like that. I was merely trying to introduce how society might stereotype genders into a small community of that society whose values I know clearly deviate from the norm in this country.

Part of that stereotype comes from unequal pay differences and gender discrimination. Males on average have a higher salary than women in the same job which isn't right. If everyone got equal pay for equal work, then we wouldn't have this stereotype about women being gold diggers that the media often portrays. I would like to see more equal work and employer support for parents to raise their families (mom and dad). I think many of views are similar to the rest of MMM.

I was part of that general society until I came here. I didn't really hold many views before about gold digging but I'm really glad I stumbled upon this community and turned around some preconceived views I had before. I will admit I was surprised at first but was ecstatic to hear how untrue that women were only gold diggers was and I meant to show appreciation for the community for overturning those stereotyped views. And it was good to see that men could be gold diggers as well. There are plenty of cases where women make more than men in a relationship too! It taught me to look more at the person and not their gender. I wouldn't have known that had I not come here. Likewise, not all men are brutes either but some women hold this view too (not necessarily in MMM, just overall, big picture)

A lot of us hold stereotypes of different types as part of being human. Though stereotypes are sometimes grounded in some truth, it is most certainly not absolute and that those stereotypes are not always a fault of a group of people but often the conditions that create it (like unequal pay for equal work, glass ceiling for women [not enough female CEOs, gender discrimination, so on]). If society valued women's work as more and paid more than men, I'm sure men would start being seen as gold diggers a whole in society. MMM is a small segment of that society whose views obviously differ so I think we also need to be mindful that our views don't always reflect the whole populace. Telling others to live like Mustachians and how irresponsible they are can seem rude even though it's technically "correct."

Apologies again, I didn't mean to offend anyone, I didn't really want to go into the whole spiel and write an essay or go off topic and should've kept focus on the question.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 09:50:25 AM by fewaopi »

neophyte

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2015, 09:52:34 AM »
I don't see what good hiding your finances from your partner, "until marriage" or whatever, would do.  If the person feels entitled to your money, they are still going to feel entitled to it when you are married, and then you are already trapped in a serious relationship.

Personally, I would tell them fairly quick into the relationship that I have substantial savings and see how they react.  If they suddenly start acting like I need to pay for everything, or ask for money, well there is a big red flag.  Better to find these things out earlier than later.  And besides, hiding things from a partner is not a good way to start a long-term relationship.

I think this is a good idea too.

OP, I'd say consider yourself lucky to have found out and gotten out early.  My ex-fiance and I didn't start talking about money much until we were engaged. Well, we weren't on the same page. (Actually that's how I found MMM - Googling how to talk to your partner about money and get them on board with frugality and saving.) He is just one of those guys who sees money in his account and wants to spend it. Once we were engaged and he found out I had money saved, he started to feel like I was holding out on him. I somehow wound up paying for most of our dates and little day-to-day things.

Over the year-and-a-half or so before we broke up, I gave him and his family a generous amount of money to help with home repairs, his mother's medical bills, a child support lawsuit fiasco, etc.   After I found out that his mother had misled us/me about what some of the money was being used for, I was furious. We had a come-to-God talk about how we'd hit the wall for how money I was willing to shell out for a long, long time, how I believe in personal responsibility and I wasn't willing for us to support her or help her avoid the consequences of her irresponsibility, how saving was important to me and I wanted us to work together to build savings, how we could realize his dream of retiring early if we worked together and stopped spending on frivolous things...

Well, a few months later he asked me to loan him $500 for an expense he'd know was coming for months but hadn't saved enough for. I said no. He whined and said I didn't love him or trust him and he wasn't worth even $500 dollars to me. I said that wasn't true but I was disappointed by his lack of planning. We had another talk about personal responsibility, planning for the future, etc. It was petty of me, but I made the decision to loan him the money thinking that he would either pay it back and try to prove that he was turning over a new leaf and it was worth giving the relationship another chance or I would learn that I should move on. We wrote out and agreed on a generous schedule for repayment over several months. He knew I would be very disappointed in him if he couldn't stick to the schedule he made. I even asked "Are you sure you can meet these deadlines? I want you to seriously think about what you can do and not agree to more. I'd rather stretch out our agreement now than have you not be able to meet it." He assured me it would be no problem. (I had daydreams of him picking up overtime and stopping eating out in order to pay me back early "Here honey, I know this isn't due for a few more months, but I couldn't stand the thought of owing you money and I wanted to prove to you that my promises to you come first." LOL) Over that time he still had money to got out with friends, take an international trip to attend his sister's wedding, help with wedding expenses when his sister came up short, and buy himself trinkets on a regular basis. Nothing more was said until after he missed the first two payments. I reminded him, he acted hurt (Rent! Child support! Sister's wedding!) I never said anything about it again and after a few more months we broke up. He thinks I'm greedy and a gold-digger and I didn't even love him enough to give him $500.  I think I made an investment to find out that a man with a full time job and no other debt couldn't come up with $500 over 9 months, or basically, that he couldn't inconvenience himself a little in order to keep a promise he made to the woman he asked to marry him.  $500 well spent, I just wish I'd figured it out sooner.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 10:07:19 AM by neophyte »

historienne

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2015, 10:02:29 AM »

My apologies to those who might have been offended, I think some of my words were misinterpreted or I didn't make myself clear enough.

There's a societal stereotype that women tend to be more the gold digger than men. I don't know how accurate that is but I know in the Mustachian community, all of us, men and women are clearly not like that. I was merely trying to introduce how society might stereotype genders into a small community of that society whose values I know clearly deviate from the norm in this country.

Part of that stereotype comes from unequal pay differences and gender discrimination. Males on average have a higher salary than women in the same job which isn't right. If everyone got equal pay for equal work, then we wouldn't have this stereotype about women being gold diggers that the media often portrays. I would like to see more equal work and employer support for parents to raise their families (mom and dad). I think many of views are similar to the rest of MMM.


Thanks for writing this.  I think you've explained yourself much more clearly here.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2015, 10:13:34 AM »
Yeah, I'm not sure holding out until you're practically married is a good choice either. People usually get married around 29-30, when a practicing Mustachian could easily be worth a few hundreds of thousands, whereas the spouse-to-be is still treading water with a barely above 0 net worth. I can't imagine dropping a bomb like that on someone.



2ndTimer

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2015, 10:37:36 AM »

My apologies to those who might have been offended, I think some of my words were misinterpreted or I didn't make myself clear enough.

There's a societal stereotype that women tend to be more the gold digger than men. I don't know how accurate that is but I know in the Mustachian community, all of us, men and women are clearly not like that. I was merely trying to introduce how society might stereotype genders into a small community of that society whose values I know clearly deviate from the norm in this country.

Part of that stereotype comes from unequal pay differences and gender discrimination. Males on average have a higher salary than women in the same job which isn't right. If everyone got equal pay for equal work, then we wouldn't have this stereotype about women being gold diggers that the media often portrays. I would like to see more equal work and employer support for parents to raise their families (mom and dad). I think many of views are similar to the rest of MMM.


Thanks for writing this.  I think you've explained yourself much more clearly here.

But you did the next best thing when you accepted ownership of the issue and apologized.  Lots of people would have just fired back automatically.  You have just won the Person-with-whom-I-am-Willing-to-Converse Award.  A fresh cranberry oat scone will be delivered to your house shortly.  Hope you are not on a diet.

Came back to add I once returned a rather large diamond to a very nice man after he explained that he NEEDED a new (more fashionable) car even though the one he had was perfectly functional.  There was more to it than that but basically I concluded that EE degree aside, he was just too stupid for a life partner.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 10:55:37 AM by 2ndTimer »

frugaldrummer

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2015, 10:59:20 AM »
And as a woman myself, I'm opposed to sterotypes BUT I have to admit I have known a number of women who suffer from what I call "Princess Syndrome".  Often raised in households where the wife and daughters were spoiled rotten and spending money on"girlie" things like shoes and clothes and manicures was considered an essential part of their sex appeal.

These girls grow up expecting, like Snow White, that "one day my prince will come" and so they never quite take responsibility for their own financial life.  They resist learning to budget or manage their finances because they're "bad at math" or because it makes them anxious.  They just keep waiting for that man who is going to take care of them.

Sometimes daddy issues are involved. I have a friend in her 50s, a widow with a young son and very little money, who is just now waking up to the fact that she actually has to take financial responsibility for her own future. (Sadly, at this age and with no assets or pension, she also cannot afford to date a man unless he has at least some retirement assets, or she risks being an impoverished old woman. )

It all drives me crazy as I've never been that way, but it's something you see glorified in popular culture (Real Housewives, for example).
« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 11:01:58 AM by frugaldrummer »

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #30 on: April 19, 2015, 11:07:36 AM »
Just wanted to say that I'm not advocating waiting for marriage, engagement, or close to it. I'm saying that the relationship needs to be somewhat serious before I discuss finances like this.

That is to say, there's a real chance for the future and I think I have a good read on the person's character.

Luckily for me this came relatively early and easily. I will say that I didn't give her a net worth number or anything like that for awhile, though. What would the purpose have been? She knew I saved well and she saw my spending habits. I saw the same things in her. We discussed things. As time went on I saw that she was (is) way better than me at what I call the tactical finance game - the day-to-day stuff like eating out or buying a cheap game on Xbox. On the other hand, I was (am) way better at the strategic finance game - the big wins such as continuing to drive my over-a-decade old honda and keeping money in the market for the long run.

Together we do far better at the finance game than we ever would've done alone, and we're still pretty much on the same income I had before marriage and not much more. Last year we saved what it took me 2-4 years to save in the past. This is especially awesome because she is very career-minded and my career is pretty much the primary now, but I'm willing to get out and be the secondary earner or stay at home dude...pending good progress on FI. She's of the same mindset. I'm really excited that the money I saved before marriage and the money we're saving now is going to give her the freedom to be a female breadwinner/primary career in the family/head of household/whatever you want to call it.

Sorry, that was a long explanation. Basically, I am saying don't let on too much about finances if you're really early in a relationship, before you have a reasonable read on their habits & values.

pachnik

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #31 on: April 19, 2015, 11:17:48 AM »
And as a woman myself, I'm opposed to sterotypes BUT I have to admit I have known a number of women who suffer from what I call "Princess Syndrome".  Often raised in households where the wife and daughters were spoiled rotten and spending money on"girlie" things like shoes and clothes and manicures was considered an essential part of their sex appeal.

These girls grow up expecting, like Snow White, that "one day my prince will come" and so they never quite take responsibility for their own financial life.  They resist learning to budget or manage their finances because they're "bad at math" or because it makes them anxious.  They just keep waiting for that man who is going to take care of them.

It all drives me crazy as I've never been that way, but it's something you see glorified in popular culture (Real Housewives, for example).

+1 I am a woman too.  I have known a few women like this.  A lot of them are much younger than me too.

But on the other hand I know a couple of women who had well-paying, steady jobs - i.e. specialized nursing - and they both ended up with guys who were looking to not work too hard themselves.  Neither of the two marriages lasted very long.  So either sex can be gold-digging.  It is pretty much equal opportunity now.

LeRainDrop

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #32 on: April 19, 2015, 11:35:39 AM »
OP, I'd say consider yourself lucky to have found out and gotten out early.  My ex-fiance and I didn't start talking about money much until we were engaged. Well, we weren't on the same page. (Actually that's how I found MMM - Googling how to talk to your partner about money and get them on board with frugality and saving.) He is just one of those guys who sees money in his account and wants to spend it. Once we were engaged and he found out I had money saved, he started to feel like I was holding out on him. . . . He thinks I'm greedy and a gold-digger and I didn't even love him enough to give him $500.  I think I made an investment to find out that a man with a full time job and no other debt couldn't come up with $500 over 9 months, or basically, that he couldn't inconvenience himself a little in order to keep a promise he made to the woman he asked to marry him.  $500 well spent, I just wish I'd figured it out sooner.

Oh man, neophyte, that is so messed up.  I'm very sorry you had to go through that.  Your ex-fiance reminds me a lot of one of my brothers.  He has borrowed four figures from me and my other brother (a sliver has been repaid), well into five figures from my parents (who themselves borrowed five figures from me and the other brother), went to three different colleges but technically did not complete a degree because he had just one last paper to turn in but couldn't bring himself to finish it (even with the one-year extension the professor/school allowed), has nearly all that substantial student loan debt in my parents' names, and just wants to live his "dream."  So, he actually is living quite frugally for the last year or so because he literally earns minimum wage and it's not even steady work.  But that means he continues to ask for "loans."  Other brother and I stopped the loans two years ago (though we still have good sibling relationships with each other), but he keeps milking our mom (who is bleeding her own resources for him, still has a bunch of her own debt, and always wants to give him "one more chance") and his girlfriend.

Well, girlfriend is like 23 years old and has about $12k in the bank.  Brother knows this because he was at her house (she lives with dad, mom, and younger sibling), and saw that the bank statement was left out on the counter or something and he snooped.  Well, boy did he feel entitled to that money!  His car needed like $1.5k repair, he needed around $2k dental work, and he needed $3k for some career thing.  Anyway, he got the car and dental work from my mom, and asked his girlfriend for the $3k.  He'd say things to me like, "She's got $12k!  She could easily give me the $3k!  She's so greedy.  She knows that this $3k would be for my career which would help US long term.  She must not believe in me!"  He kept pressuring her and pressuring her, and she kept saying no, that her family taught her never to give any loans.  Well, he's also really jealous because girlfriend's family lives pretty comfortably and the parents still take pretty good care of her financially.  I hear a lot of brother's comments about girlfriend's "mommy and daddy."  Anyway, he finally gives her the ultimatum to give him the $3k or he's going to break up with her because she must not really believe in him or think the "investment" in him is worth it.  Simultaneously, he continues to manipulate me and my mom with all sorts of threats and such -- I do not buy it, but mom caves.  Mom swears it's going to be a "loan" and brother is going to have to agree to various stipulations, such as a specific timeline for repayment plus a timeline for repayment to me and other brother on the old loans.  After more harassment from brother, mom just gives him the money.  Brother and girlfriend cycle through some drama...fast forward to now where he has given her another ultimatum.  He's now telling her she either needs to move in with him and pay for half the rent, or he will break up with her.

In my opinion, brother's thinking is so dysfunctional, but he does not grasp that at all.  When I give him advice, I have to tread very carefully.  A large part of me wants to tell his girlfriend to run, but I also don't want to do anything to hurt brother :-/

Merrie

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #33 on: April 19, 2015, 11:41:41 AM »

In my opinion, brother's thinking is so dysfunctional, but he does not grasp that at all.  When I give him advice, I have to tread very carefully.  A large part of me wants to tell his girlfriend to run, but I also don't want to do anything to hurt brother :-/

I don't think you do your brother any favors by closing your eyes to this, personally. If you have a good relationship with his GF, and you tell her you think she should leave and she actually listens to you, then maybe that'll be the wakeup call your brother needs, or maybe not. It's certainly in *her* best interests to leave. Does she have anyone on her side who is aware of the situation who is counseling her so and who she might listen to? Could you do a discreet heads-up to her parent/best friend/sibling/whoever?

Felipe, I agree with the consensus in the thread that you are better off without a GF who would act this way towards you. It sucks to end a relationship, but it is better to get out earlier than later.

I don't get feeling that you're entitled to financial help from the person you are dating... I guess I'm old-fashioned but I think that your finances should be separate or largely separate unless you're married or as good as. It would be one thing if one party really was frugal and really got into legitimate hot water, but in the scenario where A wants to borrow money from B to fund some unexpected expense without cutting back on a lifestyle of partying, buying dumb crap, etc... that person obviously isn't a good partner for a Mustachian going forward.

Villanelle

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #34 on: April 19, 2015, 12:03:26 PM »
Why is it that you ignored her ridiculously childish behavior of blocking you on social media?  To me, you had all the signs you needed that this person was incapable of a mature, reasonable relationship, before you even got to the loan conversation.

Perhaps it might be of value to you to evaluate your approach to relationships in areas other than just money. 

That said, I think it is important to be upfront, every early, about your overall financial philosophy.  Comments about how you like picnic dates because they are so inexpensive and saving is important to you, revealing that you hope to retire by age XX, etc.  I wouldn't mention numbers, but that's more because I generally I don't think talking specifics about money it appropriate. 

Paul der Krake

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #35 on: April 19, 2015, 12:26:04 PM »

In my opinion, brother's thinking is so dysfunctional, but he does not grasp that at all.  When I give him advice, I have to tread very carefully.  A large part of me wants to tell his girlfriend to run, but I also don't want to do anything to hurt brother :-/

I don't think you do your brother any favors by closing your eyes to this, personally. If you have a good relationship with his GF, and you tell her you think she should leave and she actually listens to you, then maybe that'll be the wakeup call your brother needs, or maybe not. It's certainly in *her* best interests to leave. Does she have anyone on her side who is aware of the situation who is counseling her so and who she might listen to? Could you do a discreet heads-up to her parent/best friend/sibling/whoever?
There is no need to tell her to run. Just state clearly that the brother has never repaid his debts, and encourage her to stand firm. The running away should follow shortly thereafter.

Argyle

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #36 on: April 19, 2015, 12:51:00 PM »
There's also the question of what the cute girl was doing over at the OP's house.  OP, maybe you already had an inkling that this was a relationship that had run its course?

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #37 on: April 19, 2015, 02:10:47 PM »
There's also the question of what the cute girl was doing over at the OP's house.  OP, maybe you already had an inkling that this was a relationship that had run its course?

Or OP hangs out with other attractive human beings from time to time? Why does it have to be nefarious?

Argyle

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #38 on: April 19, 2015, 02:15:59 PM »
It isn't necessarily nefarious.  But that whole incident is separate from the money incident, and did provoke a rupture.  I'm thinking the problems in the relationship didn't develop out of thin air, and perhaps the relationship was already headed for trouble. I'm sure the OP has a sense of whether this is true, though he is under no obligation to tell us.

MrsPete

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #39 on: April 19, 2015, 04:59:15 PM »
Coming in late on the gold-digger /princess syndrome thing: 

I don't think the girl about whom the thread was started fits either stereotype.  Rather, I think she's a very typical "today's woman" who's smart, who figures she's going to school for an in-demand major (didn't the OP say she's studying engineering?), and who figures that in a few  years she'll be out of school earning BIG BUCKS ... so what's the harm in borrowing a bit today?  It'll be EASY to pay it back tomorrow. 

I don't think this particular "ailment" is limited to women. 



scrubbyfish

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #40 on: April 19, 2015, 05:24:00 PM »
...either sex can be gold-digging.  It is pretty much equal opportunity now.

+1. I'm female and have only dated men. All but one wanted me to support them financially. When I didn't, they looked for another woman (female partner or female parent) who would. They did this when the disparity was as little as my $400 to their $0, and when it was much greater.

To the question...  Having read the whole thread, I lean on the side of speaking early about principles and being very cautious about revealing assets...but...I also remain unsure about avoiding a numbers talk early. I wouldn't want to become deeply invested with someone, plan to marry them, and only then learn our actual numbers were seriously misaligned.

Last summer I learned by the 7th date that the guy had: excellent work/income, was car-free, shared a co-op unit with a friend, lived simply, was entirely open/receptive to money conversations...and had developed major debt, then received a massive sum of money, then had immediately blown it all, and now had debt again. I really think this fellow could well have been influenced for Mustachianism, but I'm too old and tired now to bother influencing dates, so I was glad for the early info.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #41 on: April 19, 2015, 05:40:52 PM »
I feel she's starting to think my money is her money.
Because that's how it works in a couple. You share problems and resources both. You're not two train tracks that happen to be running in the same direction, your lives get entangled with each-other.

Of course, this works best if you have similar philosophies about what's important in life.

Merrie

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #42 on: April 20, 2015, 06:03:16 AM »
I feel she's starting to think my money is her money.
Because that's how it works in a couple. You share problems and resources both. You're not two train tracks that happen to be running in the same direction, your lives get entangled with each-other.

Of course, this works best if you have similar philosophies about what's important in life.

That also depends on the relationship. If you're not married/cohabiting or seriously planning to be, I'd argue you're independent individuals and it only makes sense to share expenses that are legitimately shared (splitting the cost on stuff you do together). Even when my husband and I were cohabiting and not yet married, we split our expenses down the middle... we had roughly equal incomes and resources at that time. If one partner has a lot more than the other, under certain circumstances it can be argued that one should pay more (if one is an investment banker and one a clerk at WalMart, and the higher earner wants a nice vacation together, s/he should pay imo). But if you're just dating and not yet in it for the long haul, it doesn't make sense to think you HAVE to go in on something that your partner wants that's just for them or that you HAVE to help your partner fix their problems. You're not automatically a team yet at that point.

frugaldrummer

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #43 on: April 20, 2015, 02:32:50 PM »
I agree with the poster above.  And let me just add, when I was in my 20's, it would have NEVER OCCURRED to me to borrow money to do a Lasik procedure, MUCH LESS impose on a boyfriend to "loan" it to me!!!  The inability to delay gratification is the biggest red flag in my book.

Lis

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #44 on: April 20, 2015, 03:28:47 PM »
I feel she's starting to think my money is her money.
Because that's how it works in a couple. You share problems and resources both. You're not two train tracks that happen to be running in the same direction, your lives get entangled with each-other.

Of course, this works best if you have similar philosophies about what's important in life.

Have to disagree with you on that. When you're in a marriage, or a partnership for years and you see a continued future - absolutely, yes. When you're 22, in college, and neither of you have really experienced life yet? Not so much.

Felipe - you're young, you have plenty of time. I agree you dodged a bullet, not just financially but emotionally as well. As for how to communicate your plans and goals with new people, be broad and explain your plans and goals. "I don't want to be tied to a corporate life for forever," or "I want to make sure I'm in a good place to start my own business by the time I'm 35," or "I hope to be financially secure and travel the world by the time I'm 40." Insert your goals here. If they're interested and ask you how, just say "I save and invest a lot of my earnings." No need to go into details... x amount of thousands a month or even a percentage.

When you start dating someone, suggest free/cheap dates, like strolls through the park and home cooked meals. If she pushes you towards expensive fancy things, just say it doesn't match up with your goals. And if she continues to push you, she doesn't match up either.

dsmexpat

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #45 on: April 20, 2015, 03:47:38 PM »
I feel she's starting to think my money is her money.
Because that's how it works in a couple. You share problems and resources both. You're not two train tracks that happen to be running in the same direction, your lives get entangled with each-other.

Of course, this works best if you have similar philosophies about what's important in life.
My wife and I have completely separate finances and go 50/50 on necessary joint expenses such as food, rent, pet and so forth. We keep the joint expenses within our means but she can spend her surplus as she wishes and I can spend mine as I wish. I find it infinitely preferable to telling her that she's spending her money wrong or being upset when she spends too much of mine.

Dibbels81

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #46 on: April 20, 2015, 03:50:57 PM »
Don't tell future lovers your net worth, but rather, tell them the details of your monthly budget.  If they are on board the frugal train with you and are pumped up about it, you probably are in safe water.  If you get the ol' "you only live once," or "why not enjoy your money while you can?" response, head for the hills.

ysette9

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #47 on: April 20, 2015, 04:03:22 PM »
Generally thinking I think it is a good idea to keep a bit of an open mind when you are 22. I know I was young and a bit foolish at that age and made financial choices that I now would do differently. My then-boyfriend/now-husband has always been more frugal and didn't agree with some things I did, but then he wasn't my husband so he didn't do more than express disapproval. After all, it wasn't his money to spend. Thankfully though he stuck with me and we learned together and have become more similar in our values as time went on. Again, 22 is young and foolish and there is still plenty of time for learning/changing. I think the important thing is to be open with your values, be with someone who shares your values or at least respects them and is open to exploring new ideas.

That said, I think your situation does not fit into the above paragraph and you are much better off without this lady. It sounds like you had a serious mismatch of values as well as communication problems. Money was just the mechanism that highlighted those underlying problems.

Tactically speaking, when my then-boyfriend and I were living together we kept a running spreadsheet of all common expenses and who paid for what. It was a way of making sure we were coming out generally even for groceries, rent, utilities, and the like. That way we didn't split every restaurant check half-way down the middle but were not in a situation of one mooching off the other. Eventually as we both got jobs and had several years under our belts of sharing expenses pretty evenly we stopped tracking so carefully. We did not merge money until after being married however.

In our case we each have a "play money" account for frivolous expenses with a weekly allowance. I thought it was important in the beginning since I am/was more frivolous than my husband and wanted to be able to have the occasional splurge without feeling guilty. In practice we each have a separate savings account that just keeps growing so we'll probably retire them in the future. In my opinion it is an important concept to have if there is any discrepancy in frugalness between the two partners. 

MustachioedPistachio

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #48 on: April 20, 2015, 04:19:08 PM »
My wife and I have completely separate finances and go 50/50 on necessary joint expenses such as food, rent, pet and so forth. We keep the joint expenses within our means but she can spend her surplus as she wishes and I can spend mine as I wish. I find it infinitely preferable to telling her that she's spending her money wrong or being upset when she spends too much of mine.

+1

This is the way we work as well. Her main beef is (fear of) investing, and my issue is I invest every drop of surplus :) We've come quite a ways in 3 years in aligning our goals, however.

We had discussions about personal finance early on in our relationship. Somehow, despite being totally spoiled, she is amazingly frugal. Like MMM, she talks about getting something for months, and then, if it passes that test of time, she seeks out the most inexpensive method of acquiring it.

Now if she could only see the boon of optimizing the other side of the FI formula... :)

galliver

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Re: Break Up with Girlfriend Over Refusing to Loan Her Money
« Reply #49 on: April 20, 2015, 04:23:03 PM »
Sounds like trust and values were much bigger issues here than money! And frankly, I think that when trust and values are aligned, the money issue(s) become straightforward to discuss and work through.

If your SO/friend is having a financial issue that relates to something you approve of (getting a better job-moving or "missed" paycheck(s) from diff schedules, addressing loan repayment, getting much needed medical care, etc) I think decent people who are in a position to do so offer a loan (or gift) before it's asked for. Existing trust means you believe they will stick to the agreed-upon terms, whatever those are. And when they do, trust is further built in the relationship. On some level, I think you have to take risks to build trust (they just might not be financial).

I'm not saying this is a first-date conversation. In fact, it's not really something to talk about on a date at all... but I think 1 year is a time frame where a relationship becomes "long-term" if it's not already, and if you don't feel comfortable disclosing your net worth to your SO, or they are living a lifestyle you can't be supportive of, that's a yellow flag to give the relationship careful consideration.