Boss called me a job hopper--Is he right? Should I care?

[Jakejake]

Before you leave a conversation with him that goes something like this.

I am sorry, I realize that what I did so soon after you got me a raise, wasn't very professional.  ... The recruiter called and I reacted instead of thinking.

I agreed with everything else in the post, but not that part. I would never tell a boss I had been unprofessional and reacted without thinking. (Unless I really HAD screwed something up, I'll admit fault when appropriate, of course). I would just do a politician's nonapology apology if it comes up again - sorry if you're upset/sorry if this puts you in a bad position, how can I help in the transition?  (but not saying sorry I made the decision). I'm not a fan of making up faults for myself and telling them to my boss; that's something they'll remember and come to believe, instead of questioning their own position and eventually coming to terms with the idea that anyone would leave for that much additional money. Worse yet, what if they are in a position to repeat that to someone in the new job - that you accepted it without thinking?! I would just keep acting respectful and professional, not like a cowed dog.

[LouLou]

Your boss is being unreasonable; however, the best thing you can do is let it go and leave with dignity.  You never know when you might encounter him (or someone else who's watching) in the business world, and you should never burn bridges.

He is not being unreasonable, he is doing his job and trying to retain a valuable employee, by appealing to your emotions and using a bit of guilt.
What the hell is suppose to do congratulate you and wish you well?


Before you leave a conversation with him that goes something like this.

I am sorry, I realize that what I did so soon after you got me a raise, wasn't very professional.  It was such big increase in salary, and I have gotten lots of students loans (insert reason I really need the money).  The recruiter called and I reacted instead of thinking.  If who ever takes over has question feel free to have them give me a call.  (This is pretty much an empty promise)

Wait, are you arguing that appealing to emotions and making employees feel guilty is an appropriate retention tool?

OP, maybe your boss will calm down, maybe not. As you can see, some people are weirdly personal about employees changing jobs.  I left my old firm after getting a raise (for a $30k salary increase, thank you very much).  I am on excellent terms with some of my old coworkers, who were sad to see me go but understood why I left. My reputation was not harmed, and I can still point to all my successes at my old job. I also have copies of my old review, showing that I was a good employee.

[markbike528CBX]

......In my field,  people will just ask around to others employees about whether you are a good employee or not.  I've never had people call a reference ever. ......

As a hiring supervisor, I asked a reference who worked at the same company, about a job candidate.
Response:  " I wouldn't touch [job candidate] with a ten foot pole"

Action: job candidate not hired, no interview.

Lesson:  Ensure references will have positive spin before listing them.

[clifp]

Before you leave a conversation with him that goes something like this.

I am sorry, I realize that what I did so soon after you got me a raise, wasn't very professional.  ... The recruiter called and I reacted instead of thinking.

I agreed with everything else in the post, but not that part. I would never tell a boss I had been unprofessional and reacted without thinking. (Unless I really HAD screwed something up, I'll admit fault when appropriate, of course). I would just do a politician's nonapology apology if it comes up again - sorry if you're upset/sorry if this puts you in a bad position, how can I help in the transition?  (but not saying sorry I made the decision). I'm not a fan of making up faults for myself and telling them to my boss; that's something they'll remember and come to believe, instead of questioning their own position and eventually coming to terms with the idea that anyone would leave for that much additional money. Worse yet, what if they are in a position to repeat that to someone in the new job - that you accepted it without thinking?! I would just keep acting respectful and professional, not like a cowed dog.

You are right unprofessional is a bad word to use,so scratch that advice. The important thing is that you tell the boss that you understand why he is upset and why you put him bad position. I agree with you on rest.   Except for this "everyone would leave for additional money".  3 months after your company, matches a salary offer in order to retain you, when the recruiters call you tell them.  "No thanks I'm  not interested."  I only last 2+ years on my first job out college, before jumping ship for more money and a better opportunity.  I had a co-worker (and boss for a short period of time) who's cubicle was next to mine..   He did the get a job offer in order to get a raise trick .   But eventhough he was one of the slimiest guys I knew (not for that) for several months after the companies gave him a raise when the recruiters would call he'd tell them no thanks I am no longer looking.   So he didn't and I wouldn't have. A year later, I might and 2 years certainly, but 3 months no way.

[chasesfish]

The answer, like anything else, is it depends.  If you worked for me and presented me with that, I would explain why my office has a better value than just the base compensation.  In my profession, job hopping really puts a ceiling on how much you can make due to ramp up time.  I'm also in an industry undergoing a lot of consolidation, so people will leave only to find out the company they left for sells six months later.  This means before they know it, an employee could be with 2-3 different companies, go through a bunch of life stress, and be making the same three years from now as they make in that job offer.

In business, there's probably someone out there who will pay you more.  The evaluation is about value:  Compensation, quality of life, quality of the people you work with, benefits, career earning potential, and location.   

[Kaikou]

Wow this thread is still going. OP you did good. Act how you would want an employee to act.

[JLee]

The answer, like anything else, is it depends.  If you worked for me and presented me with that, I would explain why my office has a better value than just the base compensation.  In my profession, job hopping really puts a ceiling on how much you can make due to ramp up time.  I'm also in an industry undergoing a lot of consolidation, so people will leave only to find out the company they left for sells six months later.  This means before they know it, an employee could be with 2-3 different companies, go through a bunch of life stress, and be making the same three years from now as they make in that job offer.

In business, there's probably someone out there who will pay you more.  The evaluation is about value:  Compensation, quality of life, quality of the people you work with, benefits, career earning potential, and location.

It's the opposite in my industry (IT). You are generally paid less being promoted into a new role internally than you would be if you were an outside hire brought in for the same position (I have experienced this as the internally promoted employee).

[rmendpara]

Norms in terms of employment vary a lot by industry. It's not uncommon to have people moving around several times in a row every 12-24 months in start-up land, while the average in large/established companies is probably closer to 2-4 years. You'll have to judge what that is for you.

For the first 10 years or so, it's not a problem at all to try new things. We are all learning about ourselves and what we want out of a career just as much as we are developing professionally.

You did make a relationship boo-boo by continuing to look for work after accepting a raise. Are you still unhappy? By taking your next offer of 20k+ raise, it seems you are a) severely underpaid, or b) lucky with the new company who's desperate for someone with your skills.

Since you continued to look after you took the raise, it seems you are unhappy or dissatisfied. In my view, rightfully so if you are 40%+ underpaid. It's unlikely they will give you another raise to stay, so I would do what you can do avoid burning a bridge (3-4 week notice, wrap up and document all the status on your projects and/or train your replacement, etc.).

To give a personal example, I left my first job (1) after ~18 months to jump to another company doing the same thing with new clients for a 10% raise (company #2). During that interview period, I received another offer (company #3), but declined since it wasn't what I wanted and started working at #2. A few months later, #3 contacted me again with a better offer which was substantially more than what I was making at #2 (and probably what I would expect to make if I stayed for another 3 years). It was too much to pass up, and also a good career opportunity, so I took it. That short stint is not ideal, but I advanced my career (skills/experience/etc.) and make a LOT more today than I would have if I stayed at either #1 or #2. If a future employer asks why I left, I think they'll understand leaving for a 30%+ raise. If they don't, then I'll just have to find someone else who will. Certainly, some people will be put off by that, but others won't care. Overall, better for my career. Nothing is perfect, so you have to take the good (more money) with the bad (mark of leaving shortly).

Fortunately, for you, you're still at the same employer, so it will only be one company change for a big raise. I'd take it, if I were you.

[Catbert]

OPs situation is exactly why when I was an HR manager that I strongly recommended against matching offers from other organizations.  My advice to let employees go was often ignored.  In most cases the employee was gone within 6 months or coming back to the well for another offer to match.

Does that mean OP should care?  Probably not.  But his boss should have seen it coming.

[rmendpara]

OPs situation is exactly why when I was an HR manager that I strongly recommended against matching offers from other organizations.  My advice to let employees go was often ignored.  In most cases the employee was gone within 6 months or coming back to the well for another offer to match.

Does that mean OP should care?  Probably not.  But his boss should have seen it coming.

I'm curious, how did your organization respond when employees requested significant raises off cycle (i.e. not at their annual review), or even at their annual review?

Very interesting to see that employers are willing to pay double digit raises to hire from the outside, but in some cases aren't willing to do the same to keep people around (assuming more money is what they are looking for).

[Faraday]

HEY: this new company you are going to - they sound like they are growing like wildfire and would have even more openings they would like to fill.

Is it possible there might be a position there that you could recommend your (soon to be former) manager for?
Does your new employer provide incentive payments if you recommend someone for a position?

Wanna talk about loyalty - pitching to the former manager a new position at the new company, now THAT'S loyalty....

[JLee]

OPs situation is exactly why when I was an HR manager that I strongly recommended against matching offers from other organizations.  My advice to let employees go was often ignored.  In most cases the employee was gone within 6 months or coming back to the well for another offer to match.

Does that mean OP should care?  Probably not.  But his boss should have seen it coming.

I'm curious, how did your organization respond when employees requested significant raises off cycle (i.e. not at their annual review), or even at their annual review?

Very interesting to see that employers are willing to pay double digit raises to hire from the outside, but in some cases aren't willing to do the same to keep people around (assuming more money is what they are looking for).

I am betting it's simply because you need a reason to get someone to come to your company, but if somebody's already working there the hard part is already done.  I was promoted two weeks ago (new title) and my raise was $2630.70/year (putting me at 61k).  Hiring outside into my current position two years ago was ~65k, so it's a little frustrating knowing I'm worse off having been here three years than if I was hired into where I am right now.

[sol]

Hiring outside into my current position two years ago was ~65k, so it's a little frustrating knowing I'm worse off having been here three years than if I was hired into where I am right now.

On the flip side, you do have three extra years of seniority to count towards your pension.  Or gold watch or whatever.

My wife and I both draw the same paycheck, but since she's been there for like 20 years longer than I have her total compensation, including increases to the NPV of her pension based on years of service, is like $11k/yr higher than mine.

[stlbrah]

In my field, I care more about pay now than "future growth." I would rather get the money while I can, and have it collect interest which generates more income in itself vs betting on the future.

I was in that position once, and I chose to leave for higher pay. I am glad I did that.

[JLee]

Hiring outside into my current position two years ago was ~65k, so it's a little frustrating knowing I'm worse off having been here three years than if I was hired into where I am right now.

On the flip side, you do have three extra years of seniority to count towards your pension.  Or gold watch or whatever.

My wife and I both draw the same paycheck, but since she's been there for like 20 years longer than I have her total compensation, including increases to the NPV of her pension based on years of service, is like $11k/yr higher than mine.

Pension? Haha, you're funny. :)

[ShoulderThingThatGoesUp]

You know, you can negotiate with your employer. You can ask for more, especially when you know how much they're hiring for.

[WGH]

As a manager who has gone to bat for employees for raises before I can completely understand why the boss would be upset. You do put your neck on the line and there is an expectation that if I do this for you you will appreciate it and show me some loyalty and stay idk longer than another three months? You feel betrayed that you made the effort to help out your employee for something they wanted and it still wasn't good enough. And it makes you the manager look bad to your boss.

That being said there is no loyalty any more and I don't blame OP one bit for looking and finding something else. The reality as we all know is job jumping is the only way to get big raises. But at least you should empathize with your boss as well.

I have one employee I have done this for now twice. Problem is money doesn't keep people motivated. They think oh if I just made $X more then it would be easy sailing. Then they make more and they buy the bigger house, car, boat and are still just as broke.

[Telecaster]

OPs situation is exactly why when I was an HR manager that I strongly recommended against matching offers from other organizations.  My advice to let employees go was often ignored.  In most cases the employee was gone within 6 months or coming back to the well for another offer to match.

Does that mean OP should care?  Probably not.  But his boss should have seen it coming.

I agree.  Matching the offer almost never works out.

That said, I agree with the OP.   They say that you should never fall in love with something that can't love you back (like a house).   But same thing applies to corporations.  Being loyal to something that can't be loyal back combined with $4.50 gets you a latte.   He is being substantially underpaid at his current job.   That money will make a dramatic difference with lifestyle, FIRE plans, etc.  If the boss can come up with some reason why the OP's loyality will be rewarded to something equal to that, I'm all ears.  I doubt it though. 

[jzb11]

Take this to heart:

You are the only one who is looking out for your best interest. Your boss certainly is not, especially as he attempts to manipulate you into staying in your current role.

You are doing nothing unethical. It is your life, and you are the only one who can meet your needs.

[Bearded Man]

Studies show that those who change jobs every 2 years earn 50% more than those who don't, if I recall correctly. As others have said, would there be loyalty talk if they were about to lay you off?

[Case]

-You are a job hopper; not necessarily a bad thing.  They offered you a substantial raise in pay; I would have taken it.
-Loyalty is BS in most companies, but there are some companies that run like they did in the 'old days' and value employees as long term investments.  Don't know if your company is that or not.  I work for a company where they look for long term employees, and pay raises and bonuses go up significantly as you advance through the company.  Unfortunately these nice companies are somewhat counterproductive with fire, but then again they often have more enjoyable workplaces.
That said, at the end of the day work is work, and calling what you have done 'betrayal' is way to dramatic.  You are just playing the game and deciding that money is most important.
-Depending on what your job role is, staying at a job for longer than you have would allow more time for your projects to flourish.  I work in an R&D role, it takes time for projects to advance and for the science to reach a certain level.  I am avoiding jobhopping currently because I want to see my work come to fruition.  On the other hand if you work mostly on short term projects or do work that doesn't require much development of skill, than this doesn't matter.
-Your rec from your old boss is most likely shot; it would be a risky endeavor to ask for a reference when you know that he is probably going to list on their that you don't have much company loyalty.

I left my job of 2.75 years today for an opportunity at another company.

Here it is in cliff notes form:

-First real career-type job a couple years out of college after some very entry level jobs.
-Start at bottom of barrel (for the company) on 43k per year--thrilled with that at the time
-Receive yearly  2k raises and a promotion after 1.5 years bringing me to 54k at 1/1/15.
-All feedback I receive is positive. I get another job offer for 63k in May and take it to my boss who matches it, no questions asked.
-Company makes me feel great about working there consistently. Good work-life balance. Promises me continued growth into the future.
-I get another job offer for 85k with great advancement opportunities.
-I tell my boss and offer to give 4 weeks more of my time as opposed to the standard 2.
-He calls me a job hopper and tells me he passed up on many opportunities for more money and his W-2 is higher now because of it.
-Mentions the word betrayal several times and how important loyalty is.
-I point out that the company has poached several of its high ranking employees from other companies by offering more pay.
-I also point out that I have industry experience with only one company and nearly all of the company's highest executives have been with many companies in the industry during their careers.

I think I am being the logical one in this conversation but I really look up to this man. He is an incredible businessman and I would love to have him as a reference in the future if needed. I am interested to get some opinions on this. What would you have done? Do you perceive me as a job-hopper? Unethical?

[Drifterrider]

If your boss wants loyalty he should get a dog.

Your responsibility is to yourself and your future.  If you move from job to job with no advancement in mind, maybe it is you.  If moving gets you something you don't currently have, it is them.

There is an old saying that opportunity only knocks once.  That is a lie:  it has never knocked.  I've had to be on the lookout and sometimes chase it down the street.

[fitfrugalfab]

Not unethical at all. I guarantee if the roles were reversed your boss would hop on the same opportunity

[merula]

I think it very much depends on the industry, but I also think that young workers need to think about the long-term implications of job-hopping.

OP, as many have said, your boss is mad because he thought that by giving you a raise in May, you'd stay for awhile. Not forever, but longer than three months. It's possible that in your industry, your behavior is the norm and you'll be fine. BUT, based on your description of your boss as a well-respected leader in your field, it sounds to me like he knows the expectations better than you do and you may have shot yourself in the foot.

It's true that no one cares as much about your money or your career as you do. You shouldn't base any decisions on something as nebulous as "loyalty", but I definitely think that you have hurt your long-term earning potential with this move.

[Easye418]

I left my job of 2.75 years today for an opportunity at another company.

Damn.... I wouldn't want to know what he thinks of me then.... I've held 3 positions from Undergrad.

3 Months (Contract position), 2 years, 1 year, going on 6 months currently and if I don't get promoted between 12-18, I fully expect to jump at the 18 month mark because I dont have time to sit around and get underpaid. 

[acroy]

I left my job of 2.75 years today for an opportunity at another company.

-.......... I get another job offer for 63k in May and take it to my boss who matches it, no questions asked.

-I get another job offer for 85k with great advancement opportunities.
-I tell my boss and offer to give 4 weeks more of my time as opposed to the standard 2.
-He calls me a job hopper ......

 Do you perceive me as a job-hopper? Unethical?

Shoot, that is a 35% raise.

Being professional is a balancing act. Loyalty to an extent is important, but 35% is a ton of $$. And $$ is why you get out of bed in the morning!

You're doing the right thing: still early in your career, moving on up, getting those raises. It sounds like you do have a great boss so try to stay on his good side; offering 4 weeks was excellent of you. If he labels you 'betrayer' and will not give you positive references, well then he's not such a good boss.

A measure of a boss's success is how well the people under him do. He should take it as a compliment that you have been recruited. It'll be painful for him in the short term; but that's part of his job.