Biodegradable cat litter

[skp]

Does anyone use biodegradable cat litter?  I currently use regular clumping cat litter.  We only have one cat but the litter he generates  takes up a lot of weight/ room in our trash.   We have to pay per bag of trash and there is a limit on the weight you put in it.  We usually put out a bag every other week. We recycle and do a lot of composting. The idea of litter sitting indefinately in a landfill disturbs me.   I just found out you can buy biodegradable cat litter- some you can flush.  We have a septic, so I'm reluctant to do that.  But I could compost it- I wouldn't use it in our tiny garden, I'd just disperse it in our woods.   I hear it is more expensive, but you use less of it.  What has been your experience with it?

[BikeFanatic]

I use Feline pine ( cheweys has good deals on 40 LB bags), it is wood pellets. The pelets become sawdusty when mixed with urine.
You could compost that seperate from your regular compost, or spread it as mulch on some of your non edible plants.
I just put it in the trash once a week.

[slappy]

I use the equine wood pellets, they are pine i think. It's super cheap, $6 for a $40 pound bag, and they don't use as much of it. I just dump it in the woods. I have a septic, and I don't know the implications of flushing it. I do flush the poop though. With the pellets, they don't tend to bury it as much. I just grab it off the top (with a piece of toilet paper), dump it in the toilet, and wash my hands. There a lot of you tube videos about using the pine pellets if you wanted to do more research.

[Metalcat]

I tried to convert my cat to wood pellets and he peed in my bed, but I've heard of many cats adapting with no problems

[jfer_rose]

My old lady kitty passed away last spring, but I also used horse bedding for her litter. They are pine pellets and as far as I can tell are the exact same product as Feline Pine, however much cheaper, assuming you can get to a farm supply store.

However, my best tip is to buy the Feline Pine litter box. It's essentially two boxes. The inner one is a sieve and the bottom one is solid. When the litter gets wet, it turns to sawdust. You can shake/scrape the litter until the sawdust falls down through the sieve. This helps the litter to last longer because you can dump the sawdust and keep the unused stuff.

[dodojojo]

I have used wheat litter for a long time.  I recently added grass litter because the wheat didn't clump very well.  The grass litter is really lightweight.  Unfortunately, both are expensive relative to other types of litter.

[jeninco]

This is a fascinating question. We use corn-cob-based litter, "Nature's Miracle" (I can't bear using stuff that's mined, or should be food... and the recycled-newspaper stuff didn't work particularly well for us.)

The website says it can be composted! (But not used on food plants, obviously.) I'm so glad you raised this, because it's bugging me how much of our trash bag this takes up -- we also pay by the bag.  I think, going forward, I'm going to continue to put the scooped poop into the trash, but when I dump out the boxes I'll put them in a back corner of the yard, and occasionally mix in some leaves.

[nessness]

We use Naturally Fresh walnut shell cat litter. It's great - controls odor better than any other litter I've tried.

I've always thrown it out - it never occurred to me until just now that I could compost it - but according to their website it is compostable.

https://www.naturallyfreshlitter.com/#:~:text=Eco-Friendly%20Cat%20Litter,your%20place%20into%20a%20jungle.

[Zikoris]

I'm a huge fan of the corn-based one. I used to use normal clay ones, but found the dust gave me pretty bad allergies, and also I really didn't like the smell of it. The corn one is not only dust free, it also clumps really well, and is way better at not stinking.

I learned something interesting awhile ago - apparently the corn cat litter is basically identical to corn chicken feed, which you can get at any farm supply place for a fraction of the cost. I live in the downtown core of a city so I haven't managed to take advantage of that yet, but hopefully one day.

[BikeFanatic]

I will have to look at the feed store for the horse bedding sounds interesting (and cheaper).

[YttriumNitrate]

But I could compost it- I wouldn't use it in our tiny garden, I'd just disperse it in our woods.

Is there a reason you couldn't just disperse regular clumping cat litter in the woods? It looks like the main ingredient in most of them is a clay called sodium bentonite. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bentonite

[mistymoney]

We use Naturally Fresh walnut shell cat litter. It's great - controls odor better than any other litter I've tried.

I've always thrown it out - it never occurred to me until just now that I could compost it - but according to their website it is compostable.

https://www.naturallyfreshlitter.com/#:~:text=Eco-Friendly%20Cat%20Litter,your%20place%20into%20a%20jungle.

I had to give that one up. too much dust. the cat was always coughing.

moved to yesterdays news and it work well. prefer the performance of the walnut shells, but worried about the health factor can't be good to have that in your lungs all the time. No more coughing.

[skp]

But I could compost it- I wouldn't use it in our tiny garden, I'd just disperse it in our woods.

Is there a reason you couldn't just disperse regular clumping cat litter in the woods? It looks like the main ingredient in most of them is a clay called sodium bentonite. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bentonite

It isn't biodegradable.  The idea of clumps of cat litter permanently laying in my woods disturbs me.   I'd like it to at least partially break down in a compost pile first.

[Daley]

It isn't biodegradable.  The idea of clumps of cat litter permanently laying in my woods disturbs me.   I'd like it to at least partially break down in a compost pile first.

If you're that concerned, try making a clump of "urine" litter with just water, pull it out, let it dry in a container, and then pour a ton of water over the top of it, with or without breaking the clump up first and tell me if it remains "clumped" or not as your simulated heavy rainfall does the erosion thing. If water can carve the Grand Canyon, I'm pretty sure it can break apart a cat litter clump.

This said, the danger with clumping litter is mostly in the dust and possible silicosis, as most clumping litter is really dusty. We tried going the natural biodegradable several years ago with kiln dried oak pellets, but eventually gave up and went back to the normal stuff. Best, non-dust producing litter we ever found was Arm & Hammer Clump & Seal Multicat. The stuff clumps tight, there's almost zero odor and dust, the cat likes the sand-like texture, and we actually use a lot less litter now given the stuff seems to last forever.

This said, I'm not down with the stuff just being tossed in the woods.


@slappy @jfer_rose @BikeFanatic  Do be careful in using pine horse pellets, and make sure they're thoroughly kiln dried. That's the thing with Feline Pine, they kiln dry the stuff to try and break down as much of the pine oils as possible, and even then, it's still not entirely enough to not cause health issues with some cats.

Pine horse pellets frequently aren't kiln dried, and the packaging rarely marked as to whether they are or not, which leaves more pine oil in the product, and pine oil is toxic to cats and can do liver damage... which means if the exposure isn't high enough to kill your cat outright, it'll instead gradually build up in the liver until it is. It's the same reason why you don't use Pine Sol (or nearly any essential oils) around cats. If the bedding you toss in that box smells like pine, you're cutting your furry little friend's life far shorter than necessary just to save a few pennies on their waste box.

Please do be careful and educate yourselves on the risks of using pine products in such an intimate way with your cats' health if you haven't already... and if you have, please remember to include such critical points of information next time you share it while giving advice to others on using it.

[BikeFanatic]

Pine horse pellets frequently aren't kiln dried, and the packaging rarely marked as to whether they are or not, which leaves more pine oil in the product, and pine oil is toxic to cats and can do liver damage..

Thanks for that Daley, Last thing I want to do is hurt the cat.

[Sibley]

Thank you Daley, for being aware of the risks of pine to cats! I can't tell you how many cat lovers swear that the stuff is harmless. It may not be immediately deadly, but it's not just the immediate you need to be concerned with.

My Arwen is going to give herself kidney disease as she doesn't drink enough water and never has, despite all the encouragement I can devise. The best I've ever done is to enable her habit of drinking from the bathtub.

[dodojojo]

@Sibley, I get water into my cats by adding water to their canned food.  I lucked out with my cats willing to eat soupy food.  For every 2 tablespoon of canned food,  I add about 3-4 tablespoons of water. My cats will only drink water on their own when I travel.  That's because instead of being fed wet food twice daily, they only get one serving.  My cat sitters note seeing the cats drinking from the water bowls.

[WhiteTrashCash]

We use World's Best Cat Litter which is corn-based and has very little dust. It's completely biodegradable and compostable. It's a very green way to handle cat litter.

[Daley]

You bet.

I'll admit, giving risky advice to others without disclosing those risks is a pet peeve of mine. If you truly love your neighbor as yourself, you shouldn't decide what risks are acceptable or not for someone else. If you're gonna spend the time to offer advice, suggest the safest and best paths for them (not the most financially beneficial for you), and disclose the negatives.

This isn't to say that a lot do it maliciously, usually it's just ignorance, but ignorance can be just as damaging as malice.


@Sibley Have you tried a cat fountain? Some of them can be quite expensive, but I did a write-up a couple years back here on a model that was cheap to run and easy to DIY replacement filters with, complete with disclosure risks and testing methods for potentially using certain off-purpose filtration media.

[jfer_rose]

You bet.

I'll admit, giving risky advice to others without disclosing those risks is a pet peeve of mine. If you truly love your neighbor as yourself, you shouldn't decide what risks are acceptable or not for someone else. If you're gonna spend the time to offer advice, suggest the safest and best paths for them (not the most financially beneficial for you), and disclose the negatives.

This isn't to say that a lot do it maliciously, usually it's just ignorance, but ignorance can be just as damaging as malice.

Yes please don't assume maliciousness! Before today I had never heard any suggestion that pine litter could be unsafe-- in fact I had only heard that it's safer than clay litters. I am somebody that cares very much about these things. I did research litter when I first made the decision of what kind to use with my cat. But that was a long time ago and having made my decision, I never researched again and certainly the vet never brought it to my attention. Fortunately, my vet was impressed with my cat's longevity before she passed away, because otherwise I would beat myself up over this.

Would you be willing to share your sources for this info? I would be interested in reading up on this and nothing that came up high in my search results had sources/citations.

[Daley]

Yes please don't assume maliciousness!

Don't worry, I didn't. Never ascribe to malice what ignorance can easily explain, and all that. That said, I'm quite happy to hear your cat lived a long life, and I suspect you thankfully got lucky with the pellets.

As for sources? I can't cite specific toxicology studies (nor am I going to spend the time trying to track them down), because it's just been something I've known most of my life and informed of by a vet in that most essential oils are toxic to cats and dogs, especially the ones commonly featured in cleaning products... but how about references to pine and other essential oil toxicity to cats being referenced by Texas A&M Veterinary Medicine and Biomedical Sciences, the ASPCA, and the Pet Poison Helpline?

https://vetmed.tamu.edu/news/pet-talk/a-scent-sitive-subject-essential-oil-diffusers-and-your-cat/
https://www.aspcapro.org/resource/most-common-toxicologic-causes-tremors-cats
https://www.aspca.org/pet-care/animal-poison-control/cats-plant-list
https://www.petpoisonhelpline.com/blog/essential-oils-cats/

Are those sufficiently high enough level sources?

[Sibley]

Re the water.... yes, I've tried fountains. For several years I had 2 fountains. The cat declines. She's perfectly happy to drink from toilets, mud puddles and bathtubs. She will also drink (periodically) from a bowl. She's actually drinking more in the past year or so than she has previously. Bloodwork recently came back normal, but I assume kidney disease has started.

Between the 2 cats, neither prefers the fountain, so I gave one to a friend and put the other in storage. They want a bowl. (Plus the toilets, bathtub, mudpuddles)

[Daley]

Between the 2 cats, neither prefers the fountain, so I gave one to a friend and put the other in storage. They want a bowl. (Plus the toilets, bathtub, mudpuddles)

I know I've said this to you before, but man... cats are weird.

[Spicolli]

My sister swears by the Cat Toilet Training Systems. Says they work and once trained in 4-5 weeks, you don't have to worry about cat litter again. Thinking of trying it out ourselves. 

[Sibley]

My sister swears by the Cat Toilet Training Systems. Says they work and once trained in 4-5 weeks, you don't have to worry about cat litter again. Thinking of trying it out ourselves.

Until they get older and are unable to jump to the toilet rim. Not all of course, but it absolutely can happen. Not all cats are willing to be toilet trained, plus you lose the ability to monitor health through the litterbox. And that's aside from the silly cats that want to drink from the toilet. There are downsides.


------
And yes, Daley, cats are weird. We love them anyway.

[WhiteTrashCash]

My sister swears by the Cat Toilet Training Systems. Says they work and once trained in 4-5 weeks, you don't have to worry about cat litter again. Thinking of trying it out ourselves.

Until they get older and are unable to jump to the toilet rim. Not all of course, but it absolutely can happen. Not all cats are willing to be toilet trained, plus you lose the ability to monitor health through the litterbox. And that's aside from the silly cats that want to drink from the toilet. There are downsides.


------
And yes, Daley, cats are weird. We love them anyway.

Our cats have fecal examinations as part of their annual wellness exams. I agree that toilet training is a problem because you lose the ability to do that to check their health that way.

[eav]

I don't hear many people talk about it, but we use unscented paper litter by Exquisicat and love it!

https://www.petsmart.com/featured-brands/exquisicat/exquisicat-naturals-paper-multi-cat-litter-5219990.html

[jfer_rose]

My sister swears by the Cat Toilet Training Systems. Says they work and once trained in 4-5 weeks, you don't have to worry about cat litter again. Thinking of trying it out ourselves.

Our city sends out educational materials saying to never flush cat feces or cat litter down the toilet. Cats can carry toxoplasmosis without our knowing, and then if you flush the feces down the toilet it can get into the municipal water supply. That was enough for me to want to stick with using litter.

[slappy]

It isn't biodegradable.  The idea of clumps of cat litter permanently laying in my woods disturbs me.   I'd like it to at least partially break down in a compost pile first.

If you're that concerned, try making a clump of "urine" litter with just water, pull it out, let it dry in a container, and then pour a ton of water over the top of it, with or without breaking the clump up first and tell me if it remains "clumped" or not as your simulated heavy rainfall does the erosion thing. If water can carve the Grand Canyon, I'm pretty sure it can break apart a cat litter clump.

This said, the danger with clumping litter is mostly in the dust and possible silicosis, as most clumping litter is really dusty. We tried going the natural biodegradable several years ago with kiln dried oak pellets, but eventually gave up and went back to the normal stuff. Best, non-dust producing litter we ever found was Arm & Hammer Clump & Seal Multicat. The stuff clumps tight, there's almost zero odor and dust, the cat likes the sand-like texture, and we actually use a lot less litter now given the stuff seems to last forever.

This said, I'm not down with the stuff just being tossed in the woods.


@slappy @jfer_rose @BikeFanatic  Do be careful in using pine horse pellets, and make sure they're thoroughly kiln dried. That's the thing with Feline Pine, they kiln dry the stuff to try and break down as much of the pine oils as possible, and even then, it's still not entirely enough to not cause health issues with some cats.

Pine horse pellets frequently aren't kiln dried, and the packaging rarely marked as to whether they are or not, which leaves more pine oil in the product, and pine oil is toxic to cats and can do liver damage... which means if the exposure isn't high enough to kill your cat outright, it'll instead gradually build up in the liver until it is. It's the same reason why you don't use Pine Sol (or nearly any essential oils) around cats. If the bedding you toss in that box smells like pine, you're cutting your furry little friend's life far shorter than necessary just to save a few pennies on their waste box.

Please do be careful and educate yourselves on the risks of using pine products in such an intimate way with your cats' health if you haven't already... and if you have, please remember to include such critical points of information next time you share it while giving advice to others on using it.

I've done a fair bit of research and have never heard of this being an issue. Any sources you could link for me? We also have a vet appointment coming up so I will ask the vet what her thoughts are.

Edit-nevermind, I see you posted sources above. Thank you!

[peterlewis]

I have found Skoon to be a good bio degradable cat litter. And yes, it is easily available on Amazon. I like how it completely traps the odor, makes the living room much more livable. :p 

[Mr. Green]

While clay isn't biodegradable, it is still a natural material that breaks down into powder over time. Of course, if you have to put it in a plastic bag and then it goes in a landfill that sorta defeats the purpose but if tossed in the woods it will become nothing over time. It just takes a while, and it will affect the pH of the soil where it lays, like limestone powder.

[draco44]

My sister swears by the Cat Toilet Training Systems. Says they work and once trained in 4-5 weeks, you don't have to worry about cat litter again. Thinking of trying it out ourselves.

Our city sends out educational materials saying to never flush cat feces or cat litter down the toilet. Cats can carry toxoplasmosis without our knowing, and then if you flush the feces down the toilet it can get into the municipal water supply. That was enough for me to want to stick with using litter.

Yes, please do not flush cat waste. Water treatment plants are not designed to handle non-human waste, and flushed cat feces can lead to the spread of Toxoplasma gondii. Avoiding this parasite is the reason pregnant women are now advised not to scoop cat litter. It's one of those nasty things you may not even know you are infected with (about 40 million Americans are carriers - https://www.cdc.gov/parasites/toxoplasmosis/index.html) but if it gets to someone with a weak immune system or who is carrying a baby, bad things can happen. Contamined water can also harm other animals such as sea otters.

There's low risk of your cat having this parasite if they are completely an indoor cat, but if they go outside at all (where they may eat small animals carrying it or be exposed to contaminated water, sand, etc.) or you ever feed them raw meat, there is a chance that your cat is a carrier. Here's a public bulletin from the CDC on cats and the spread of toxoplasmosis:
https://www.cdc.gov/parasites/toxoplasmosis/resources/printresources/catowners_2017.pdf

I've heard mixed things about the safety of composting cat waste. Some say if the compost pile gets up to 165 degrees you are good to go on cat feces, but I don't have any information to verify that claim.

I do encourage you to find a more eco-friendly litter that your cat is willing to use. Other commenters gave you great suggestions on that front.

[Spicolli]

My sister swears by the Cat Toilet Training Systems. Says they work and once trained in 4-5 weeks, you don't have to worry about cat litter again. Thinking of trying it out ourselves.

Our city sends out educational materials saying to never flush cat feces or cat litter down the toilet. Cats can carry toxoplasmosis without our knowing, and then if you flush the feces down the toilet it can get into the municipal water supply. That was enough for me to want to stick with using litter.

Yes, please do not flush cat waste. Water treatment plants are not designed to handle non-human waste, and flushed cat feces can lead to the spread of Toxoplasma gondii. Avoiding this parasite is the reason pregnant women are now advised not to scoop cat litter. It's one of those nasty things you may not even know you are infected with (about 40 million Americans are carriers - https://www.cdc.gov/parasites/toxoplasmosis/index.html) but if it gets to someone with a weak immune system or who is carrying a baby, bad things can happen. Contamined water can also harm other animals such as sea otters.

There's low risk of your cat having this parasite if they are completely an indoor cat, but if they go outside at all (where they may eat small animals carrying it or be exposed to contaminated water, sand, etc.) or you ever feed them raw meat, there is a chance that your cat is a carrier. Here's a public bulletin from the CDC on cats and the spread of toxoplasmosis:
https://www.cdc.gov/parasites/toxoplasmosis/resources/printresources/catowners_2017.pdf

I've heard mixed things about the safety of composting cat waste. Some say if the compost pile gets up to 165 degrees you are good to go on cat feces, but I don't have any information to verify that claim.

I do encourage you to find a more eco-friendly litter that your cat is willing to use. Other commenters gave you great suggestions on that front.

Thanks for the replies...I'll forward this information to my sister. I was contemplating toilet training our cat but will no longer consider it.

[slappy]

It isn't biodegradable.  The idea of clumps of cat litter permanently laying in my woods disturbs me.   I'd like it to at least partially break down in a compost pile first.

If you're that concerned, try making a clump of "urine" litter with just water, pull it out, let it dry in a container, and then pour a ton of water over the top of it, with or without breaking the clump up first and tell me if it remains "clumped" or not as your simulated heavy rainfall does the erosion thing. If water can carve the Grand Canyon, I'm pretty sure it can break apart a cat litter clump.

This said, the danger with clumping litter is mostly in the dust and possible silicosis, as most clumping litter is really dusty. We tried going the natural biodegradable several years ago with kiln dried oak pellets, but eventually gave up and went back to the normal stuff. Best, non-dust producing litter we ever found was Arm & Hammer Clump & Seal Multicat. The stuff clumps tight, there's almost zero odor and dust, the cat likes the sand-like texture, and we actually use a lot less litter now given the stuff seems to last forever.

This said, I'm not down with the stuff just being tossed in the woods.


@slappy @jfer_rose @BikeFanatic  Do be careful in using pine horse pellets, and make sure they're thoroughly kiln dried. That's the thing with Feline Pine, they kiln dry the stuff to try and break down as much of the pine oils as possible, and even then, it's still not entirely enough to not cause health issues with some cats.

Pine horse pellets frequently aren't kiln dried, and the packaging rarely marked as to whether they are or not, which leaves more pine oil in the product, and pine oil is toxic to cats and can do liver damage... which means if the exposure isn't high enough to kill your cat outright, it'll instead gradually build up in the liver until it is. It's the same reason why you don't use Pine Sol (or nearly any essential oils) around cats. If the bedding you toss in that box smells like pine, you're cutting your furry little friend's life far shorter than necessary just to save a few pennies on their waste box.

Please do be careful and educate yourselves on the risks of using pine products in such an intimate way with your cats' health if you haven't already... and if you have, please remember to include such critical points of information next time you share it while giving advice to others on using it.

We spoke with the vet today and they said the pine pellets are fine for litter, as long as the cats aren't sleeping in it or ingesting it. They said some cats do tend to sleep in the litter box (gross!), and that could be an issue, but overall we are fine to use it.

I have to admit, I resent the implication that I didn't do research and am giving out dangerous information. I only briefly scanned the links you posted, but it seems they had more to do with essential oils, not pine pellet litter.

[slappy]

Re: flushing cat poop-Does anyone know if this is an issue if we have a septic system and well water? Sounds like the main concern is contaminating public water supply by flushing it if you have municipal water system. Isn't there also a possible ground water contamination issue if you just dump the poop outside, as has been suggested in previous posts?

[Daley]

We spoke with the vet today and they said the pine pellets are fine for litter, as long as the cats aren't sleeping in it or ingesting it. They said some cats do tend to sleep in the litter box (gross!), and that could be an issue, but overall we are fine to use it.

I have to admit, I resent the implication that I didn't do research and am giving out dangerous information. I only briefly scanned the links you posted, but it seems they had more to do with essential oils, not pine pellet litter.

And feed lot pine pellets aren't cat-safe pine litter, not all feed store pine pellets are kiln dried to bake off that oil, pine pellets can be dusty given they're literal sawdust, that sawdust can stick to paws and get in fur, and cats bathe themselves with their tongues.

Please feel free to be offended and resentful all you want, but the warning is warranted, even by your own vet's standards.

[Daley]

I have to admit, I resent the implication that I didn't do research and am giving out dangerous information.

You know, I thought about sending this via PM to you @slappy, but decided it might be better to post publicly.

Here's the thing about me, I care more about grounded truth and reality than I do about people's feelings, especially the feelings of people who give bad or dangerous advice to others, whether by ignorance or malice. You yourself admitted and confirmed that the vet told you that pine pellets can be hazardous to some cats, and that you didn't know that. After all, you were shocked to find out that some cats will sleep in their litter boxes, and doing so with pine pellets can cause long term health problems! That alone confirms that you didn't actually do thorough research and you are potentially giving out dangerous information to others, but all you heard was, "it's safe for my cat," and you chose resentment as a response to that news over registering the non-zero risk as being validated by your own credible authority and trying to dismiss the science that confirms that risk because the research details the toxicity of the oils itself inside the plant, instead of the industrial byproduct and how those oils relate to it, the very subject of the concern.

As @Sibley and I have jokingly stated on more than one occasion in these sorts of threads, is that cats are weird. I've seen cats chew on furniture and power cords, try to eat carpet, eat bread and waffles, eat and swallow anything if it's small and chewy enough, lick bags...

Dust can be breathed in, and it can get trapped in fur. Diabetic cats tend to get club foot with any litter they use because of neuropathy, which is one of the other risks of clumping litter and ingestion (and I forgot about that risk when I talked about clumping litter earlier and discussed silicosis, my apologies). Cats bathe themselves and process the dirt from their bodies through their digestive tracts. There is a non-trivial risk for some cats with this sort of litter, even the kiln dried official stuff, specifically because of the terpines present in pine wood. Your vet even confirmed this. What may be statistically "safe" for one, is not safe for all. The warning is justified.

When you give advice to others, it's not about you. It's about them, and you know as much about them as they disclose to you. You have as much right or authority to make moral or ethical choices for other people as I do, and that right to do so is zero.

We both have the right to call out and challenge and highlight those problems in discussion, but we cannot make those choices for others. You chose to make that risk, and it may be a risk you feel comfortable taking, even justified by your own framework... but it was a risk founded on incomplete information, and a risk not everyone is willing to take. The signal to noise ratio on the internet is awful, and doing due diligence is getting harder, and genuine problems worth considering are getting lost and buried in a sea of noise of personal, self-centered anecdotes wrapped in ignorance passing as advice. After all, pine toxicity with cats is not common knowledge anymore. You have to know what you're looking for if you want to find the risks to begin with.

You didn't know, and that's okay. But you know now, and you have no excuse to not disclose the risk in the future when discussing the topic at hand with others.

When I give advice, it's never about me. I have nearly a decade of that philosophy lived on these forums, and I do it because I want the same level of detail and disclosure when I ask advice, and have been burned by others not doing so. I never cite myself as an absolute authority, always recommend doing further research to cover where I'm ignorant... but I always warn about downsides if I know them, and let the other make their own decision. It's why I read terms of service agreements with MVNOs, and disclose about the advertising opt-out with RedPocket. It's why I discuss the finer points of copyright law when talking about streaming services. It's why, when P'tel was in the early stages of going under a few years back, that I personally PM'd every single person on these forums that I knew were using P'tel because of my advice, to prepare to port their number out to another provider before the official announcement even came down. I care more about informing the person asking questions and answering those questions when possible with well researched information, than your or anyone else's feelings, or even my own. A lot more people on these forums in the early days used to be likewise, and I miss that. But if that philosophy makes me an hermaphroditic troll, as has been implied by someone else on these forums recently, then feel free to just call me Pat Bjergtrolde... I guess. ᕙ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ᕗ

[slappy]

I have to admit, I resent the implication that I didn't do research and am giving out dangerous information.

You know, I thought about sending this via PM to you @slappy, but decided it might be better to post publicly.

Here's the thing about me, I care more about grounded truth and reality than I do about people's feelings, especially the feelings of people who give bad or dangerous advice to others, whether by ignorance or malice. You yourself admitted and confirmed that the vet told you that pine pellets can be hazardous to some cats, and that you didn't know that. After all, you were shocked to find out that some cats will sleep in their litter boxes, and doing so with pine pellets can cause long term health problems! That alone confirms that you didn't actually do thorough research and you are potentially giving out dangerous information to others, but all you heard was, "it's safe for my cat," and you chose resentment as a response to that news over registering the non-zero risk as being validated by your own credible authority and trying to dismiss the science that confirms that risk because the research details the toxicity of the oils itself inside the plant, instead of the industrial byproduct and how those oils relate to it, the very subject of the concern.

As @Sibley and I have jokingly stated on more than one occasion in these sorts of threads, is that cats are weird. I've seen cats chew on furniture and power cords, try to eat carpet, eat bread and waffles, eat and swallow anything if it's small and chewy enough, lick bags...

Dust can be breathed in, and it can get trapped in fur. Diabetic cats tend to get club foot with any litter they use because of neuropathy, which is one of the other risks of clumping litter and ingestion (and I forgot about that risk when I talked about clumping litter earlier and discussed silicosis, my apologies). Cats bathe themselves and process the dirt from their bodies through their digestive tracts. There is a non-trivial risk for some cats with this sort of litter, even the kiln dried official stuff, specifically because of the terpines present in pine wood. Your vet even confirmed this. What may be statistically "safe" for one, is not safe for all. The warning is justified.

When you give advice to others, it's not about you. It's about them, and you know as much about them as they disclose to you. You have as much right or authority to make moral or ethical choices for other people as I do, and that right to do so is zero.

We both have the right to call out and challenge and highlight those problems in discussion, but we cannot make those choices for others. You chose to make that risk, and it may be a risk you feel comfortable taking, even justified by your own framework... but it was a risk founded on incomplete information, and a risk not everyone is willing to take. The signal to noise ratio on the internet is awful, and doing due diligence is getting harder, and genuine problems worth considering are getting lost and buried in a sea of noise of personal, self-centered anecdotes wrapped in ignorance passing as advice. After all, pine toxicity with cats is not common knowledge anymore. You have to know what you're looking for if you want to find the risks to begin with.

You didn't know, and that's okay. But you know now, and you have no excuse to not disclose the risk in the future when discussing the topic at hand with others.

When I give advice, it's never about me. I have nearly a decade of that philosophy lived on these forums, and I do it because I want the same level of detail and disclosure when I ask advice, and have been burned by others not doing so. I never cite myself as an absolute authority, always recommend doing further research to cover where I'm ignorant... but I always warn about downsides if I know them, and let the other make their own decision. It's why I read terms of service agreements with MVNOs, and disclose about the advertising opt-out with RedPocket. It's why I discuss the finer points of copyright law when talking about streaming services. It's why, when P'tel was in the early stages of going under a few years back, that I personally PM'd every single person on these forums that I knew were using P'tel because of my advice, to prepare to port their number out to another provider before the official announcement even came down. I care more about informing the person asking questions and answering those questions when possible with well researched information, than your or anyone else's feelings, or even my own. A lot more people on these forums in the early days used to be likewise, and I miss that. But if that philosophy makes me an hermaphroditic troll, as has been implied by someone else on these forums recently, then feel free to just call me Pat Bjergtrolde... I guess. ᕙ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ᕗ

FWIW, I am aware that some cats sleep in the litter box. My own cats have done it in the past (not in pine litter). I still think its gross! haha

I mean, I just find this so strange. Should I make a note on every comment I make with full disclosure of my knowledge or lack thereof in a particular subject. I don't see that happening when people make blanket statements about index investing. Is there no responsibility on the part of the person looking for advice to do further research? It would seem that would go without saying. I feel like a simple, "hey this could be harmful to the cat" would have been sufficient, rather than some diatribe about giving out misinformation on the internet. Then I probably would have thought, "oh no, I should look more into that, sounds scary!" rather than be put on the defensive feeling like I'm being accused of spreading false information.  I'm pretty sure nowhere did I "make a choice for others". That feels like an extreme accusation. Not that it matters I guess, this is the internet and we are all adults.

Anyway, I am actually unsure right now about the pine litter option. Although my vet did say it was fine, I am hesitant to take even a small chance that it may harm the cat. On the other hand, I've heard (not researched or have any further knowledge) that clay clumping litters are not good for cats either. So what is the answer? Is there a safe and economical option for cat litter, other than not having cats? This particular aspect of cat ownership feels like the bane of my existence, with a smaller home and multiple cats. (Obviously I am not the cat lover in the family, but I am outnumbered by cat lovers, so here we are.)

[Daley]

I mean, I just find this so strange. Should I make a note on every comment I make with full disclosure of my knowledge or lack thereof in a particular subject. I don't see that happening when people make blanket statements about index investing. Is there no responsibility on the part of the person looking for advice to do further research? It would seem that would go without saying. I feel like a simple, "hey this could be harmful to the cat" would have been sufficient, rather than some diatribe about giving out misinformation on the internet. Then I probably would have thought, "oh no, I should look more into that, sounds scary!" rather than be put on the defensive feeling like I'm being accused of spreading false information.  I'm pretty sure nowhere did I "make a choice for others". That feels like an extreme accusation. Not that it matters I guess, this is the internet and we are all adults.

That's the thing. Your reaction was a negative one towards simple information filling in the blank on ignorance by someone else. You didn't know before, but you know now. I simply stated the dangers initially, exactly like what you suggest here, but you earlier demanded sources to back up this claim (rightfully so) which I provided, you checked with your vet to confirm the information, and then you used the word "resent" as a response to my warning and tried to dismiss that data through a caveat and used words to dismiss the info publicly. That's my point. It's not about me or you, it's about the quality of the information shared. Full stop. If someone points out a problem, and it's accurate, let it ride, and fold the info in yourself for future reference.

I don't take offense at others knowing more than I do, if anything, I'm grateful for it and pay closer attention. If you take that more complete information as a personal attack and then use that as justification to further trivialize and dismiss that valid information publicly, I don't know what to tell you or anyone else... but you shouldn't be surprised if someone responds with a diatribe about ethics in response. And honestly, this community needs more people arguing for the sake of ethics again on multiple topics, trivial or not.

And for the record, I consider the blanket investing statements to be grossly irresponsible, and how people who do point out valid issues frequently get shouted down. It's one of the things that sticks in my craw about the current WSB/GME thing. The advice given there isn't just malice, it's all about personally profiting off of the advice shared, whether it actually helps others or not.

Anyway, I am actually unsure right now about the pine litter option. Although my vet did say it was fine, I am hesitant to take even a small chance that it may harm the cat. On the other hand, I've heard (not researched or have any further knowledge) that clay clumping litters are not good for cats either. So what is the answer? Is there a safe and economical option for cat litter, other than not having cats? This particular aspect of cat ownership feels like the bane of my existence, with a smaller home and multiple cats. (Obviously I am not the cat lover in the family, but I am outnumbered by cat lovers, so here we are.)

Ultimately, in an imperfect world fueled by entropy, everything is about calculated risk and being informed. It's why truth sets us free.

The real risks with most clay and clumping litters long term is potential silicosis off of the fine dust, and that's mitigated with formulas that are genuinely not dusty. Unfortunately, the claims of low dust by most litters is absolute rubbish - I'm looking at you, Tidy Cat! Where the real, more immediate risk of danger with clumping litters specifically lies is with significant ingestion of the litter itself as it absorbs moisture and forms into a hard mass. Most short hair cats are fine and safe on that front, but diabetic cats or cats with nerve damage in their paws or long-hair cats that get their fur wet and sit in the box have a far higher risk of ingestion because of the whole club foot thing. The cat is more likely to make direct contact with the urine clump while burying and getting a significant amount of the litter stuck to their paws or coat, which they then lick off and ingest, which increases the chance of an intestinal blockage.

But that's almost beside the problem, just like the equine pine pellets versus Feline Pine versus other litter, as you're getting almost too lost in the financial end of things. It costs what it costs to do things right to your values and standards, and if you cut corners, be willing to live with the consequences. Make peace with that, and you'll be fine.

[Sibley]

Cats are indeed weird. And I happen to know that my vet had a cat in there last Friday for emergency surgery because they ate a bunch of cat litter. I also know I'm playing with fire having lilies all over my yard with cats that go outside. If I get burned, I'll only have myself to blame.

I actually am in the market for a new litter, Fresh Step is just too damn dusty and I'm annoyed with it. But I'm sticking with something similar because I have enough problems with Arwen and the litterbox.

[slappy]

Cats are indeed weird. And I happen to know that my vet had a cat in there last Friday for emergency surgery because they ate a bunch of cat litter. I also know I'm playing with fire having lilies all over my yard with cats that go outside. If I get burned, I'll only have myself to blame.

I actually am in the market for a new litter, Fresh Step is just too damn dusty and I'm annoyed with it. But I'm sticking with something similar because I have enough problems with Arwen and the litterbox.

Which one are you going to go with?