The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: tmoneyearlyretiree on June 16, 2016, 10:20:11 AM
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I traveled a bunch in the past six months. Been to around 35 countries since my "early retirement." There are a bunch more places I want to go in the next five years or so and thought I'd ask the community, what country is the best combo of cheap, safe, and fun in the world? My top three would be
1) Ukraine
2) Montenegro
3) Nicaragua
would love to hear your top or top 3, with explanation too if you want
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...Ukraine? The country at war with Russia?
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Don't know much about Eastern Europe, but Nicaragua is definitely fun and really cheap. Nice beaches and Lake Nicaragua/Ometepe is beautiful. Granada is also a cool little colonial city. I missed out on "Volcano surfing" and on the little islands near Granada (Las Isletas). Both of those are supposed to be really cool, too.
I don't think Nicaragua is quite as safe as Eastern Europe, but I think safety is more about educating yourself, asking the locals, and staying aware of your surroundings. That applies no matter which of the countries you pick. And if you're worried about safety, you should worry about buses and taxis more than crime. Traffic accidents may not sound as scary as some bad guy with a gun, but it's the mundane things that will get you.
Weather is pretty hot in Nicaragua, too, so that's something to consider.
...Ukraine? The country at war with Russia?
Only a small part of Ukraine is dangerous. It's like not going to Florida because Detroit is dangerous.
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Hmmm, so far Argentina would be probably one of the tops of my list considering the dollar is so strong there - it's been awhile since I was there, but the exchange rate was about 3:1 when I was there, so essentially everything was 66% off as far as I could tell.
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...Ukraine? The country at war with Russia?
Yeah that's why it's so cheap is because the rich tourists have a misconception as to the danger there in the western half of the country. I went to Lviv and Kiev a year ago, my brother is there right now.
Search Lviv on hotels.com. I typed in a query for tonight and found a 5 star hotel in the center of town for $54 a night, just 60 min away from the border of Poland, a NATO member. Don't think Russia will try anything there. Beautiful city too.
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Hmmm, so far Argentina would be probably one of the tops of my list considering the dollar is so strong there - it's been awhile since I was there, but the exchange rate was about 3:1 when I was there, so essentially everything was 66% off as far as I could tell.
Argentina is NOT safe. A few things I learned from a good friend of mine who relocated there to take over his families business.
.......inflation is RAMPANT
As a result the official exchange rates are RARELY honored
Crime is RAMPANT (he got carjacked at gunpoint by a few teenagers last year)
There is a scary political/economic climate that has many Argentinians on the edge of their seat
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Thailand. Just went for the first time this year, and wanted to buy some land on the beach to retire in. Then found out that foreigners can't buy land, only condos. I'm not a condo person.
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Oh fun question!
I would say Greece. It's my favourite country by far and not as expensive as you would think.
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I just now saw that you're looking for our top three aside from info on yours.
Out of the ones I've visited, I would say my favorites are
- India - There is so much life in India. You will never ever be bored. It's also so big and diverse that it's more like a continent than a single country. And you aren't going to find a country cheaper than India. Plus, the food is the best I have ever had. Don't go if you're the kind of person that likes somewhere low key, though, because India is definitely not.
- Mexico - seriously underrated. The landscape is amazing, and the mix of Indigenous and European culture is fascinating. Like India, it's a big country that has a lot of options geographically. It's also probably the single most underrated food destination in the world. The peso is way down, so now is a great time to go price-wise. And yes, I know Mexico is not the safest country in the world, but you really can't generalize on this for such a big country. Some parts of Mexico are very peaceful despite what's going on in Nuevo Laredo or Guerrero or wherever.
Out of the places I haven't been to, my top 3 are
Indonesia
Sri Lanka
Rwanda
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Philippines, as of now, is still not qualified
to be in the top of the list of combo of cheap, safe and fun
but if you intend to visit Singapore / Hong Kong / Bangkok,
here are the 3 places worth visiting, with direct flights from the cities mentioned:
1. Boracay (Kalibo airport) - beach, nightlife, wide selection of international cuisine
2. Palawan (Puerto Princesa airport) island hopping, laid back islands and beaches
3. Subic Bay Freeport Zone (Clark airport) - jungle, sea, nightlife
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The Baltic states are nice, safe and cheap.
Interesting for anyone not caring for tropical beaches.
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Oh fun question!
I would say Greece. It's my favourite country by far and not as expensive as you would think.
Yeah, there's just that tiny problem of the historically unstable government. ;)
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Oh fun question!
I would say Greece. It's my favourite country by far and not as expensive as you would think.
Yeah, there's just that tiny problem of the historically unstable government. ;)
I don't think that's really going to affect the casual tourist unless you go somewhere with a bunch of protests. It actually works somewhat in your favor since it scares away all the other tourists and gives you less competition. You can get deals and still help out an economy that really needs it.
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Following. My DH's FIRE plans include permanently moving to a warmer, cheaper country. I'm not sold on the idea yet, but if we can find the trifecta of warm, safe and cheap I may consider it.
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Following. My DH's FIRE plans include permanently moving to a warmer, cheaper country. I'm not sold on the idea yet, but if we can find the trifecta of warm, safe and cheap I may consider it.
I'm on the other side of that coin. I'm wanting to move somewhere in Latin America post-FIRE, but I'm afraid my DH won't take to it. He says he's ok with it, but we'll see.
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I mean, compared to some countries, parts of the USA are cheap, safe and fun. You can get by in CO or UT and have a super awesome lifestyle like MMM (just stay away from the ritzy mountain towns and certain areas of Boulder/Denver), or you could be in a different kind of paradise in FL for pretty cheap (not my cuppa tea due to humidity, but people like it there).
If I weren't married, I'd move to Mexico at retirement. Perhaps 50/50 time spent between Puebla and Playa del Carmen (for a taste of old school colonial Mexico along with laid-back beachfront fishing town Mexico). Both are pretty safe from my experience.
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I mean, compared to some countries, parts of the USA are cheap, safe and fun. You can get by in CO or UT and have a super awesome lifestyle like MMM (just stay away from the ritzy mountain towns and certain areas of Boulder/Denver), or you could be in a different kind of paradise in FL for pretty cheap (not my cuppa tea due to humidity, but people like it there).
If I weren't married, I'd move to Mexico at retirement. Perhaps 50/50 time spent between Puebla and Playa del Carmen (for a taste of old school colonial Mexico along with laid-back beachfront fishing town Mexico). Both are pretty safe from my experience.
It's not quite as much about cost to me since we're going to save up to Tennessee-level FIRE to not get "stuck" in Latin America. Parts of the USA are cheap and safe, yes, but all the fun parts to me are crazy expensive and/or freezing cold. I want to live where there's always something happening and where a car is completely unnecessary. Maybe I'm crazy, but I really like Mexico City.
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The list keeps changing, but I'm thinking:
Cost of travel will be taken care of by credit card points/miles, which will also cover some hotel stays, though most AirBnB lodging rates in these areas falls below my current rent expense.
I know OP limited us to 3 countries, but since I haven't decided on the last two, honorable mentions for:
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Bulgaria is really nice if you stay away from the casinos and the strip club bars. Heard a sad story of a young Japanese guy that got extorted by the Russian mob at one of the strip clubs in Sofia. They threatened to beat the crap out of him if he didn't cough up 2000 euros. That said, if you stay away from that scene Bulgaria is tremendous, and I was just in the Sofia area.
Rwanda is a neat choice. I'd saw Mexico is fun too anywhere south or east of Mexico City.
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I am in agreement about Mexico. I spent 8 months there working and traveling and had the opportunity to see many towns. My favourites towns are Puerto Escondido a laid back surfer town and San Cristóbal, a town full of beauty and culture.
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Bulgaria is really nice if you stay away from the casinos and the strip club bars. Heard a sad story of a young Japanese guy that got extorted by the Russian mob at one of the strip clubs in Sofia. They threatened to beat the crap out of him if he didn't cough up 2000 euros. That said, if you stay away from that scene Bulgaria is tremendous, and I was just in the Sofia area.
Since I'm not into strip clubs or casinos, I'd probably be safe in Sofia. However, I was actually considering Plovdiv, because I have a Bulgarian friend who lives not far from the city. (My friend considers Sofia especially corrupt and refuses to go there -- though I'd be likely to visit the safer areas.)
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Following!
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Are we talking for retirement or just to visit?
For retirement: I'm dividing by region and picking up to three that I'd consider good options for the region. (I haven't traveled in Eastern Europe so I left that area out.)
Western Europe: Spain, Portugal, Ireland
Central America: Belize or Nicaragua
South America: Ecuador or Colombia
Southeast Asia: Thailand, Cambodia, Malaysia
Also on my list is the US Commonwealth option: Northern Marianas Islands.
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Posting to follow...
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Oh fun question!
I would say Greece. It's my favourite country by far and not as expensive as you would think.
Yeah, there's just that tiny problem of the historically unstable government. ;)
I don't think that's really going to affect the casual tourist unless you go somewhere with a bunch of protests. It actually works somewhat in your favor since it scares away all the other tourists and gives you less competition. You can get deals and still help out an economy that really needs it.
When the "bunch of protests" gets big, as happens with Greece, yeah, it affects the casual tourist.
Then again, I'm going to Great Britain and France in September. GB's freaking out about Brexit and ISIS seems to like France. There but for the grace go I ...
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Romania!
Strangely perpetually overlooked; the Eastern Europeans consider it Balkan and ignore it, but the Balkans consider it Eastern European and too big for it's britches, and ignore it too. An amazingly gorgeous language that is as close as you will ever get to spoken vulgar Latin, a country that looks like Middle Earth, caves, forests, castles, orchards, mountains, hiking, a to-die-for music scene, a "foodie" scene that is less about going back to the old ways as it is celebrating the ways that have never changed, fastest internet in Europe, and a populace that is warm, friendly, beautiful, educated and has a great droll, dry, sense of humor that I adore.
Beats the pants off Bulgaria and Ukraine. :)
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Another vote for Thailand! Super-cheap once you're there, I always felt totally safe, and there's tons of cool stuff to do. Bonus: amazing street food. Anything you want on a stick.
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Following too!
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Following!
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My wife and I have spent a lot of time in Mexico. We lived in Mexico City for a year. Mexico City is huge. People are always worried it is dangerous, but that is like saying New York City or Chicago is 100% dangerous. In Mexico City you can stay in their really nice neighborhoods where movie actors and politicians live for $1500 a month. You can find nice safe neighborhoods for less. Mexico City has world class museums, theatre, restaurants, everything. A movie ticket cost like $2, the subway costs 15 cents and you can take a 30 minute taxi ride for $5. Even the he expensive restaurants cost a fraction of some overpriced American chain like Olive Garden! Lastly, if you need suits or other expensive clothing like that (I do, I am an attorney) you can buy them for way, way less in Mexico City. A nice, wool suit tailored to fit costs $100. I love Mexico City and have plans to return.
We also spend time in Zihuatanejo (Pacific Coast). This is a small town of approximately 50,000 people. It is touristy without being a resort. Lots of great, affordable restaurants. Fresh avocados, mango, blackberries, strawberries and other fruit from the market for super cheap. Fresh daily fish from the ocean. We take our entire family (Wife and three kids). A nanny for 8 hours a day costs 400 pesos (right now, that's like $25). We paid $150 pesos (approx $7.50) for hour long swim lessons for our three kids (all under five years old). We got a local photographer to take family pictures and give us all the digital prints for $1,000 pesos ($50). This was a really good photographer, btw.
I also recommend the colonial cities of Guanajuato and San Miguel de Allende. It will remind you that Mexico has a really cool mix of Indigenous, European and colonial history (which you see everywhere but especially in Mexico City and other major colonial towns).
Anyway, we are taking a 3 month sabbatical this year (our first taste of FIRE, we are about half way to our number). We will be using airline miles to get there and then slow traveling through Mexico. Our expenses will be lower in Mexico even with eating out and other splurges just do to the exchange rates and all that. Feel free to ask anything you need to know about Mexico.
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I have visited over 30 countries as well.
All have their own reasons why they are so great, but I will give you my favorite out of the ones I've visited so far.
South Korea- Safe, always entertaining, great food, and amazing public transportation.
Romania- Cheap! Amazing meals at fine restaurants for next to nothing. Never felt unsafe there.
Ireland- Friendliest people on Earth. Great vibes and delicious beer.
I could tell you a million things about all the countries I've been to.
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Have been to 40ish countries and agree with Thailand, Portugal, and Mexico, particularly the smaller towns. Would add Estonia as well. The problem with some of the "cheaper" developing countries is that in recent years the touristy parts of these countries have gotten really expensive to the point where they're nearly on par with countries that are a bit safer and have more infrastructure (such as those I listed). And the nontouristy parts of those countries often don't have the infrastructure many here would be looking for in a place to settle down. Nicaragua is a decent example of this, IMO. Such countries are still certainly worth visiting, and perhaps even settling in, but it's something to keep in mind when planning where to FIRE.
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Choose any two of the three options! No Latin American country is safe by US standards. They all have violent crime/murder rates about like Detroit, which Americans hardly consider a safe city. Ditto for most SE Asian countries, except Singapore or Hong Kong. Cheap, fun, and rather dangerous.
And yes, I have lived and worked and vacationed in Latin America and in Asia.
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Are we talking for retirement or just to visit?
For retirement: I'm dividing by region and picking up to three that I'd consider good options for the region. (I haven't traveled in Eastern Europe so I left that area out.)
Western Europe: Spain, Portugal, Ireland
Central America: Belize or Nicaragua
South America: Ecuador or Colombia
Southeast Asia: Thailand, Cambodia, Malaysia
Also on my list is the US Commonwealth option: Northern Marianas Islands.
I thought Ireland was really expensive. I rented a house there two years ago in a non-touristy area. The groceries were very pricey. Gas was expensive. Housing not so expensive. Maybe things have changed. But it was fun and safe!!
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Thailand. Just went for the first time this year, and wanted to buy some land on the beach to retire in. Then found out that foreigners can't buy land, only condos. I'm not a condo person.
I understand that the current solution to this is a long term lease of a plot of land with a house on it. Others create a thai corporation that will own the house. Get a thai lawyer before you committ any major sums... Laws will change over time.
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...Ukraine? The country at war with Russia?
Yeah that's why it's so cheap is because the rich tourists have a misconception as to the danger there in the western half of the country. I went to Lviv and Kiev a year ago, my brother is there right now.
Search Lviv on hotels.com. I typed in a query for tonight and found a 5 star hotel in the center of town for $54 a night, just 60 min away from the border of Poland, a NATO member. Don't think Russia will try anything there. Beautiful city too.
It appears Poland and NATO are not as confident as you...
http://www.newsweek.com/russia-biggest-threat-global-security-says-poland-471620
http://sputniknews.com/world/20160704/1042418443/russia-poland-border.html
http://blogs.wsj.com/brussels/2016/06/10/poland-seeks-nato-help-to-close-defense-gap-it-fears-russia-might-exploit/
http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/13/politics/nato-battalions-poland-baltics-russia/
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...Ukraine? The country at war with Russia?
Only a small part of Ukraine is dangerous. It's like not going to Florida because Detroit is dangerous.
No. It's not like that at all!
The correct analogy would be...
"It's like not going to Florida because Detroit has been invaded by Russia."
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Posting to follow! There are too many places I have yet to see.
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following :)
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I was thinking of Nica too! Or Mexico in the yucatan. Peru, but I have to say I didn't love it like I did the other two named above. India!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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...Ukraine? The country at war with Russia?
Only a small part of Ukraine is dangerous. It's like not going to Florida because Detroit is dangerous.
No. It's not like that at all!
The correct analogy would be...
"It's like not going to Florida because Detroit has been invaded by Russia."
To be really nitpicky about this, assuming distance from a given conflict area is the best proxy for safety of said other area, an even more correct analogy would be not going to Florida because Kentucky "rebels" with weapons and supplies from Russia, aided by Russian special forces, were vying for "sovereignty" against USA's federal government.
Had to :)
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Hmmm, so far Argentina would be probably one of the tops of my list considering the dollar is so strong there - it's been awhile since I was there, but the exchange rate was about 3:1 when I was there, so essentially everything was 66% off as far as I could tell.
Argentina is NOT safe. A few things I learned from a good friend of mine who relocated there to take over his families business.
.......inflation is RAMPANT
As a result the official exchange rates are RARELY honored
Crime is RAMPANT (he got carjacked at gunpoint by a few teenagers last year)
There is a scary political/economic climate that has many Argentinians on the edge of their seat
Mhmm.
Argentina USA
Murder rate 5.5 5
Rape rate 8.5 27.3 3 times more than Argentina
Total crimes 1.34 million 11.88 million 9 times more than Argentina
Total crimes per 1000 35.63 41.29 16% more than Argentina
There's lots more here:
http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Argentina/United-States/Crime
It's a heck of a lot safer than living in the US, and I've been here most of my life.
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For retirement, I have thought a lot about Ecuador. You can find inexpensive real estate at the beach or in the mountains. The recent earthquake made me think that renting is a better option than buying.
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I've been to over 80 countries and there are some that are quite liveable, at least for awhile:
* Ecuador - loved Quito (stayed for 7 months). Heard good things about Cuenca
* Colombia - like the cities down the Andes. Great festivals.
* Georgia - lovely country. They recently changed the visa (used to be able to stay 360 of 365 days). Relatively cheap flights to Europe.
* Thailand - stayed in Chang Mai for a month. It's hot but there were good comforts
* Sri Lanka - Hill country was nice. Food was great
* Philippines - lots of great beaches, but getting busy.
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I hate the heat so any warm countries are out for me. There are many countries I have not been to but I like Poland for it's beauty, LCOL, friendly people and 4 seasons. Although, in the winter they burn coal so my asthma would probably not like that. Actually I would not want to retire anywhere but in the US. However, it would be fun to spend a few months in one place. I have friends that are spending a year traveling in Europe so are staying a month in each place.
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Hmmm, so far Argentina would be probably one of the tops of my list considering the dollar is so strong there - it's been awhile since I was there, but the exchange rate was about 3:1 when I was there, so essentially everything was 66% off as far as I could tell.
Argentina is NOT safe. A few things I learned from a good friend of mine who relocated there to take over his families business.
.......inflation is RAMPANT
As a result the official exchange rates are RARELY honored
Crime is RAMPANT (he got carjacked at gunpoint by a few teenagers last year)
There is a scary political/economic climate that has many Argentinians on the edge of their seat
Mhmm.
Argentina USA
Murder rate 5.5 5
Rape rate 8.5 27.3 3 times more than Argentina
Total crimes 1.34 million 11.88 million 9 times more than Argentina
Total crimes per 1000 35.63 41.29 16% more than Argentina
There's lots more here:
http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Argentina/United-States/Crime
It's a heck of a lot safer than living in the US, and I've been here most of my life.
Hmm. Numbers fight. This source says otherwise:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
Argentina 7.6/100,000
US 3.9/100,000
Canada and Chile are the only New World countries with a lower murder rate than the US, as near as I can tell from this chart.
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Yeah I've been to chile 10x over last decade including a six month stint in Santiago. It is not dangerous at all if you are a savvy person used to being in urban environments. Perhaps if one came from a suburb or rural area Santiago could be scary. But I look and sound like a Gringa even though I am fluent and the worst that happened was being pick pocketed which is such a small matter it's barely with mentioning. That said it ain't cheap.
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Hmmm cheap, safe and fun... it's fascinating seeing what countries people think hit the mark. There's nothing in Western Europe I'd consider cheap (that's just in response to the listings of Portugal, Spain and Ireland).
I guess it depends whether you want to live there or just visit. For example I'd say Ukraine is great for a visit (except for their ridiculously high visa fees for me) but I wouldn't want to live there (the weather... urrrrghhhh) and I certainly wouldn't want to be earning in local currency. But if you were seriously thinking about living in countries obviously the visa situation would play a role.
But without over thinking it I'd say.
1) Bulgaria. I'm totally biased but I've lived all over the world and I love this place (I've been here 3 years now). Cheap cost of living (which ruins you for most other places) but still with easy access to Western Europe. Totally safe (I live in Sofia and I feel as safe here as I did in Tokyo which is where my last job was and certainly a hell of a lot safer than I do in Australia when I visit). Fun if you're in to outside stuff (mountains, beaches, climbing, skiing, hiking...) and as far as I know fun if you're into more of a party culture (not my thing but others seem to like it)
2) Albania. I don't know why but when I visited Tirana I just had this immediate feeling of being at home and felt like I could live there. It's definitely cheap. Felt safe and I imagine it could be a lot of fun. I only visited as a tourist though but I could see myself living there.
3) China. Definitely getting less cheap but I feel like it is still worth a mention. Safe (if you ignore what you're breathing) and fun if you love surprises and craziness.
A question to the OP. Why Montenegro? I'm just interested because if I was ranking the Balkan States that would go at the bottom of my list.
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My wife and I have spent a lot of time in Mexico. We lived in Mexico City for a year. Mexico City is huge. People are always worried it is dangerous, but that is like saying New York City or Chicago is 100% dangerous. In Mexico City you can stay in their really nice neighborhoods where movie actors and politicians live for $1500 a month. You can find nice safe neighborhoods for less. Mexico City has world class museums, theatre, restaurants, everything. A movie ticket cost like $2, the subway costs 15 cents and you can take a 30 minute taxi ride for $5. Even the he expensive restaurants cost a fraction of some overpriced American chain like Olive Garden! Lastly, if you need suits or other expensive clothing like that (I do, I am an attorney) you can buy them for way, way less in Mexico City. A nice, wool suit tailored to fit costs $100. I love Mexico City and have plans to return.
...
Anyway, we are taking a 3 month sabbatical this year (our first taste of FIRE, we are about half way to our number). We will be using airline miles to get there and then slow traveling through Mexico. Our expenses will be lower in Mexico even with eating out and other splurges just do to the exchange rates and all that. Feel free to ask anything you need to know about Mexico.
I agree with your assessment of Mexico City. We loved our visit there last year, and hope to return soon.
Your upcoming trip sounds fantastic; are you going to blog about it?
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Following
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So I would definitely put Ukraine and Nicaragua up there on my list. Lviv I think is like Prague 30 years ago. It's fantastic along with Ivano- Frankivsk, but not speaking Ukrainian (mine is non-existent) can be a hindrance, but everyone was so nice that it always worked out (They haven't been inundated with tourists so it's still a fun change of events for them and not an annoyance). Also, I never felt in danger at all while I was in Ukraine. Not saying the current situation isn't a factor, but in western Ukraine I think it's very small until something major changes.
1. Mexico. My top picks would be Puerto Escondido (as mentioned before). I thought this was a great place with good surf and very reasonable rates for food and accommodation. Also quite beautiful and more of a resort town for Mexicans than foreigners. The Baja peninsula was also great and cheap. Anywhere south of Ensanada is good. Bahia de los Angeles is good and La Paz.
2. El Salvador. This one is a big maybe because the crime rate has shot up since I've been there, but I think it is concentrated in San Salvador (but there's probably spillage) . But in the north close to Playa Coastal Azul area can be fantastic, cheap for food, booze and accommodation and there's amazing surfing here.
3. Croatia. I'm completely biased because my experience with the people was so fantastic, but I think it's reasonably priced and has lots of things to do and see.
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Another vote for Croatia.
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I've been enjoying following along with this series: http://frugalvagabond.com/retire-abroad/ -- Might give you some ideas.
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Following. Love this thread!
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I'm happy to see so many replies about Mexico :) Considering I was born and still live here, it warms my heart lol
But where I live is one of the most expensive cities (Monterrey), from what I read most people are looking for a quiet town, so I wouldn't recommend it here. I think even Mexico City is cheaper.
The mexican peso has been losing value against the USD in the last 4 years since Peña Nieto became president (around 2 pesos every year, went from 1 USD= 13 pesos to 1 USD=18/19 pesos from 2012 to 2016), so if you bring your american money, it'll last you a lifetime and beyond!
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...Ukraine? The country at war with Russia?
Only a small part of Ukraine is dangerous. It's like not going to Florida because Detroit is dangerous.
No. It's not like that at all!
The correct analogy would be...
"It's like not going to Florida because Detroit has been invaded by Russia."
To be really nitpicky about this, assuming distance from a given conflict area is the best proxy for safety of said other area, an even more correct analogy would be not going to Florida because Kentucky "rebels" with weapons and supplies from Russia, aided by Russian special forces, were vying for "sovereignty" against USA's federal government.
Had to :)
Also FL and Kentucky, and Detroit for that matter, have only been independent from Russia for 26 years.
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I like Costa Rica and Thailand. Though probably not as cheap as your options.
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Following. I haven't been nearly to as many places as others here but I would say Chile.
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Dang! So much Detroit bashing! I live in Michigan and extended family and friends go to Downtown Detroit all the time! The area around Comerica Park and Ford Field (baseball and football) is beautiful and there are lots of bars and restaurants down there. Also, Greek town has the casino and lots of Greek restaurants. The fireworks on the waterfront for the 4th of July (usually earlier) has 3 barges in the Detroit river and is put on by Detroit and Windsor, On. Canada. We have Mexican town with great Mexican restaurants and Corktown with Irish pubs. Detroit is just like any big city, there are places you go and places you don't go to, but neither I nor my family have every felt afraid downtown.
Just like Memphis is supposed to be dangerous, but we love going to Beale St. and listening to all the music. I've also been to Mexico a lot and never felt afraid either. Like I said before, every big city has it's dangerous areas, but if you know where to go and not go, you should be fine.
Miss Prim
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Dang! So much Detroit bashing! I live in Michigan and extended family and friends go to Downtown Detroit all the time! The area around Comerica Park and Ford Field (baseball and football) is beautiful and there are lots of bars and restaurants down there. Also, Greek town has the casino and lots of Greek restaurants. The fireworks on the waterfront for the 4th of July (usually earlier) has 3 barges in the Detroit river and is put on by Detroit and Windsor, On. Canada. We have Mexican town with great Mexican restaurants and Corktown with Irish pubs. Detroit is just like any big city, there are places you go and places you don't go to, but neither I nor my family have every felt afraid downtown.
I agree, downtown Detroit, during the day, or evening, is great. We've enjoyed walking around Greek town and having lunch, going to a Lions game, etc.
But I wouldn't hang out south of 8 mile at 2am.
Like you said, most places have dangerous places you shouldn't go.. Detroit's are just a little more dangerous, and a little more of them, than the average US city, so that's why it's used as the example. :)
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"Cheap, safe, and fun"
Maybe this is one of those things where you get to pick any two of the three.
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"Cheap, safe, and fun"
Maybe this is one of those things where you get to pick any two of the three.
Nah. I think there are many, many places that have all three. A small sampling of them have been mentioned in this thread.
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following
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Indonesia, outside Jakarta.
North Carolina
Thailand
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North Carolina is a country now? And I always thought it was Texas that wanted to succeed :-)
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When my sister and I went to Thailand in 1998 they had huge billboards inside the airport warning you that it is not safe for women to travel alone, do not get in a car with someone offering to give you a tour, etc. In Bangkok we stayed in a super fancy hotel that had armed guards with big guns on every floor. It did not feel very safe to me. We only took tours that picked and dropped us off at our hotel.
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I traveled around Thailand by myself in 2001 as a I late 20 something woman, including staying for several days in Bangkok. I was totally comfortable. I did the same in Cambodia and Vietnam as well. I would much rather travel as a solo female traveler in SEAsia than many other parts of the world.
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Thailand, interestingly, is one of the very few Asian countries with a strong tradition of private firearms ownership. Quite liberal laws, at least when I was there in the 1990s.
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...Ukraine? The country at war with Russia?
Only a small part of Ukraine is dangerous. It's like not going to Florida because Detroit is dangerous.
No. It's not like that at all!
The correct analogy would be...
"It's like not going to Florida because Detroit has been invaded by Russia."
The Russians would never invade Detroit.
It's too dangerous.
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Er, to get on topic, I'd maybe go with Croatia/Slovenia.
Not as cheap as some places, but not bad, and safe/modern.
My grandparents emigrated from Ukraine (Galicia/Lviv area), but I'm not sure I'd want to go there unless they allow me to keep an M-16 in the house in case Putin gets more aggressive. :)
Actually, I've never been there, but I hope to get there someday.
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USA by far.
Free to camp at many places. Free healthcare for low income. Police that actually respond to crime and don't require bribes. Water you can drink from tap. Meat that is actually kept safely cool in the grocery store. Roads that are reasonably marked and maintained. Many different climates to sample all under the same general law and currency.
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USA by far.
Free to camp at many places. Free healthcare for low income. Police that actually respond to crime and don't require bribes. Water you can drink from tap. Meat that is actually kept safely cool in the grocery store. Roads that are reasonably marked and maintained. Many different climates to sample all under the same general law and currency.
You make a lot of great points - for the price of a ticket OUT of the USA, once could have a pretty kick-ass vacation inside the USA.
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USA by far.
Free to camp at many places. Free healthcare for low income. Police that actually respond to crime and don't require bribes. Water you can drink from tap. Meat that is actually kept safely cool in the grocery store. Roads that are reasonably marked and maintained. Many different climates to sample all under the same general law and currency.
You make a lot of great points - for the price of a ticket OUT of the USA, once could have a pretty kick-ass vacation inside the USA.
IDK, our tickets out of the US was 11.20 for the two adults, and $78 for the infant, total under $100. And there are places in Bali, Chiang Mai, etc. we're looking at booking for ~300-400/mo..much less than camping fees. And the food is a fraction of the price. The US is great for many, many things.
But if you're looking for "cheapest," even the cheapest areas of the US don't crack the top 20 (and likely 100?) of the world.
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USA by far.
Free to camp at many places. Free healthcare for low income. Police that actually respond to crime and don't require bribes. Water you can drink from tap. Meat that is actually kept safely cool in the grocery store. Roads that are reasonably marked and maintained. Many different climates to sample all under the same general law and currency.
You make a lot of great points - for the price of a ticket OUT of the USA, once could have a pretty kick-ass vacation inside the USA.
IDK, our tickets out of the US was 11.20 for the two adults, and $78 for the infant, total under $100. And there are places in Bali, Chiang Mai, etc. we're looking at booking for ~300-400/mo..much less than camping fees. And the food is a fraction of the price. The US is great for many, many things.
But if you're looking for "cheapest," even the cheapest areas of the US don't crack the top 20 (and likely 100?) of the world.
Bali does check my 'fun' box, and cheap to boot.
I don't know where you camp that it's $400 a month... must have electricity and water and maid service.
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I don't know where you camp that it's $400 a month... must have electricity and water and maid service.
I just googled "US average camping spot per night"
First result: "It cost $20 to $30 a night to stay at a well-equipped campground"
http://www.usatourist.com/english/traveltips/lodging/lodging-camping-tips.html
Another front page result: "How much does it cost to stay in an RV park or campground? ... Typical daily rates: $10-$30;"
It's great when it's cheap, or free, but increasingly it isn't, sadly. Even a "primitive campsite" can run you $80 for the night in some popular locations.
See some examples in California: http://www.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=23293
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I don't know where you camp that it's $400 a month... must have electricity and water and maid service.
I just googled "US average camping spot per night"
First result: "It cost $20 to $30 a night to stay at a well-equipped campground"
http://www.usatourist.com/english/traveltips/lodging/lodging-camping-tips.html
Another front page result: "How much does it cost to stay in an RV park or campground? ... Typical daily rates: $10-$30;"
It's great when it's cheap, or free, but increasingly it isn't, sadly. Even a "primitive campsite" can run you $80 for the night in some popular locations.
See some examples in California: http://www.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=23293
If you find cheap/free camp sites you'll need a car. That's a big expense for any sort of long term travel. One of the big money savers is being able to use buses to get around, and that's not easy in the US. I can't think of many camping options that don't require a car. Even hostels, when you can find them, tend to run a bit high in the US.
On top of that, food is more expensive in the US than most developing countries. Yes, there may be better food safety, but if you follow what precautions the locals take do you should be fine in most countries. And adjusting to the different set of germs is probably good for your immune system.
The US is a great place to travel, but there aren't many options for a long trip on a budget.
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Just chiming in to agree that our summer of exploring the US and camping was definitely not cheap. From memory we might once or twice have had camping spots that were $10 a night but most were more like $18 and those were the cheap ones (this is for a tent site). Times when we couldn't get a spot in a NP and had to end up staying at some fancy pants campground it was a lot higher (I have a horrible feeling we ended up paying $60 a night more than once).
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The problem with many developing countries is that many are very hot/humid, lots of bugs, your apartment probably does not have air conditioning, dirty water/air, etc. It sounds awful to me.
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The problem with many developing countries is that many are very hot/humid, lots of bugs, your apartment probably does not have air conditioning, dirty water/air, etc. It sounds awful to me.
True, but you can solve that with altitude. The Andes, the Himalayas, Central Mexico, and several other places are high enough to be really nice all year or even a bit cold. And bugs are generally not bad if you're high up and/or in the desert. Lots of places in the US are a lot more buggy.
And not all developing countries are tropical. You could pack your coat right now and go snow skiing in Argentina. Or if you go to Ukraine or Poland in a few months, I doubt you'll be complaining about hot weather.
Dirty water and air can be an issue, but it's not bad if you get away from big development. Air and water quality aren't always great in the developed world either by comparison.
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And not all developing countries are tropical. You could pack your coat right now and go snow skiing in Argentina. Or if you go to Ukraine or Poland in a few months, I doubt you'll be complaining about hot weather.
I love Minnesotan summers, but absolutely hate winters, so one thing I might do is become an international 'snowbird,' and go to South America in October and come back around April.
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My DIL is from Poland which is a pretty country. However, in winter because they burn coal yes it is cold but the air is not good for someone that has asthma. I know there are countries that are cheap and not tropical but many are.
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To whoever says Portugal is not cheap.... it is.
I dare you to counter me on that and give me examples.
Even the capital, Lisbon, is cheap it you go out side the capital then things get crazy cheap...
And it's safe and fun too.
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We are staying RIGHT NOW at a Army Corps maintained park right on Lake Sakakawea. We have been here six days and maybe 1/4 of the golf course manicured spots have been filled. Trash dumpster and toilets on site but no other services. Boat ramp and beach are awesome. $0 per night. We have 1100 watts of solar on our RV and large water tanks. Fill them in town 10 miles away once every week or two for free. Went sailing in our boat today, cost $0 to launch. Watched some TV last night (get 21 channels here on antenna), cost $0. We did spend $70 for a week's food at Walmart before driving here.
So how much cheaper are these other places???
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Portugal
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Question for those in Portugal, how are the people? My company's salesman is from India and lived in Spain for many years while working, he says that he really didn't like Portugal because they were very rude to him and racist. I know that all regions have all types of people, but I remember mentioning that a friend of mine is going to Portugal and he instantly begged me to stop him/her, when I told him that my friend is white, he relaxed and smiled and said, "They'll have a good time, it's nice and cheap there with great seafood."
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To whoever says Portugal is not cheap.... it is.
I dare you to counter me on that and give me examples.
Even the capital, Lisbon, is cheap it you go out side the capital then things get crazy cheap...
And it's safe and fun too.
Shhh.... ;)
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We are staying RIGHT NOW at a Army Corps maintained park right on Lake Sakakawea. We have been here six days and maybe 1/4 of the golf course manicured spots have been filled. Trash dumpster and toilets on site but no other services. Boat ramp and beach are awesome. $0 per night. We have 1100 watts of solar on our RV and large water tanks. Fill them in town 10 miles away once every week or two for free. Went sailing in our boat today, cost $0 to launch. Watched some TV last night (get 21 channels here on antenna), cost $0. We did spend $70 for a week's food at Walmart before driving here.
So how much cheaper are these other places???
Beautiful lake. Been to the State Park there a few times on bike trips. My grandfather worked on the dam there, I'm told.
But, but, buuuuutttt you forget MustacheMath: since you had to buy a car (average cost $33,000 according to google) and a camper (probably about the same average cost), taxes, title, license and insurance, amortorize it over the times you take it camping, and then add in fuel, food, camping fees and the opportunity cost of all of that money not being invested, and you can see how it could cost easily $6,000- $8,000 a weekend to go camping. It's much more frugal to fly around the world and stay in a hostel. :D
It's totally true, yo.
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Beautiful lake. Been to the State Park there a few times on bike trips. My grandfather worked on the dam there, I'm told.
But, but, buuuuutttt you forget MustacheMath: since you had to buy a car (average cost $33,000 according to google) and a camper (probably about the same average cost), taxes, title, license and insurance, amortorize it over the times you take it camping, and then add in fuel, food, camping fees and the opportunity cost of all of that money not being invested, and you can see how it could cost easily $6,000- $8,000 a weekend to go camping. It's much more frugal to fly around the world and stay in a hostel. :D
It's totally true, yo.
MustacheMathTM
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That's going in my signature.
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That's going in my signature.
MustacheMathTM, the rules:
If you want it, its either free or makes you $1000/wk.
If you think it sucks, it costs an average of $50,000/yr, not including opportunity costs.
BTW, my wife gives me shit about this all the time. Calls it DadMath.
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Morocco. I was there only once. Marrakech is a tourist trap but if you stay in the many coastal city (like Essaouira) it is safe (no alcohol whatsoever, Muslim but not fundamentalist, very peaceful), incredibly cheap (1 kg of fresh strawberries in February for 0.20 USD? Oh yeah). And the food is amazing. You could literally eat out every night. And very cheap and traditional spa service (hammam, massage).
And in winter you can go ski in the atlas.
And btw, lots and lots of retiree from Europe, mostly southern Spain. They live like king on Spanish pensions.
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This showed up as one of the rockstarfinance article's today...thought it may be of interest to this thread...
http://frugalvagabond.com/2016/07/07/retire-abroad-july-2016-1200/
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Beautiful lake. Been to the State Park there a few times on bike trips. My grandfather worked on the dam there, I'm told.
But, but, buuuuutttt you forget MustacheMath: since you had to buy a car (average cost $33,000 according to google) and a camper (probably about the same average cost), taxes, title, license and insurance, amortorize it over the times you take it camping, and then add in fuel, food, camping fees and the opportunity cost of all of that money not being invested, and you can see how it could cost easily $6,000- $8,000 a weekend to go camping. It's much more frugal to fly around the world and stay in a hostel. :D
It's totally true, yo.
MustacheMathTM
Hmmm... let's rerun the numbers according to the Snarky Complainypants Calculator:
Nice hotel room with a view of the harbor - $22
Plate of Masala in a nice restaurant - $3
Bus ride into the Andes - $10
Flight to the other side of the planet - 1 MILLION dollars
Not being stuck by a lake in North Dakota - PRICELESS
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"Stuck by a lake in ND"
Yep, and last week we were stuck in the badlands of SD (free).
The week before that we were stuck in the Bighorn Mountains in Wyoming (also free).
But I am sure a crowded smelly $3 bus ride is better.
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Hey, at least it's not Ohio...
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Morocco. I was there only once. Marrakech is a tourist trap but if you stay in the many coastal city (like Essaouira) it is safe (no alcohol whatsoever, Muslim but not fundamentalist, very peaceful), incredibly cheap (1 kg of fresh strawberries in February for 0.20 USD? Oh yeah). And the food is amazing. You could literally eat out every night. And very cheap and traditional spa service (hammam, massage).
How is Casablanca? The AirBnB rates appear fairly cheap.
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"Stuck by a lake in ND"
Yep, and last week we were stuck in the badlands of SD (free).
The week before that we were stuck in the Bighorn Mountains in Wyoming (also free).
But I am sure a crowded smelly $3 bus ride is better.
You can upgrade to the $10 bus and ride in a literal Mercedes. Even the cheap chicken bus is worth it for sandboarding (board rental $1) and a plate of fresh ceviche (also $1).
$10 for 200 miles is a lot less than trailing your camper the same distance. And the delicious Peruvian street food can be eaten likely for cheaper than camp food.
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Umm... but you'd still be in Peru. How much does it cost to charter a Mercedes somewhere interesting? And at $22 a night, that's over $600 a month, just for lodging. Just sayin'....
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This showed up as one of the rockstarfinance article's today...thought it may be of interest to this thread...
http://frugalvagabond.com/2016/07/07/retire-abroad-july-2016-1200/
Thanks Andy and others who have shared the series in this thread. It's humbling and gratifying that people enjoy it. Obviously, my fiancée and I are pro-retirement abroad, but not because we don't love the US. We just happen to love immersing ourselves in other places and cultures, too. One of the big advantages of FIRE is that you can slow your travel way, way down, and get much closer to the prices paid by locals by booking housing for longer durations.
I write the series linked above for our own gratification as much as anyone else's. Putting into context where we could go tomorrow if necessary makes our footing on the path to FI feel much more secure, and gives us an inkling of the real freedom that awaits us ahead.
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Umm... but you'd still be in Peru.
Yes, and it would be wonderful.
How much does it cost to charter a Mercedes somewhere interesting? And at $22 a night, that's over $600 a month, just for lodging. Just sayin'....
You can take the bus just about anywhere there's a road in Peru or in most countries. Some of those buses are way way nicer than Greyhound for a fraction of the price.
$22 is the air conditioned hotel room in a skyscraper price. You can go way cheaper if you practice even the least amount of Mustachianism. You can live on nearly nothing if you enjoy camping out by the lake and relaxing.
The US is a great country to see. It can be cheap if you're already set up here and don't move around a whole lot, but it's quite expensive from the outside looking in when you compare apples to apples. I get that some people want to stick to developed countries where things are clean and orderly. I get that you can save a lot of money by sticking close to home and camping out. I just don't think it's where this thread was headed, though.
On some level I'm jealous of the people who are happy near home. That 5000 mile plane ticket is expensive. Some of us unfortunately have the itch to see those dirty, smelly, chaotic, wonderful places a long ways from wherever the lottery of birth lottery plopped us down.
Hey, at least it's not Ohio...
Or Detroit :)
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The USA is huge though. Most who travel abroad have never actually seen much of the USA.
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The USA is huge though. Most who travel abroad have never actually seen much of the USA.
A lot of people who travel the USA haven't seen much of their own state. A lot of people who travel their own state haven't seen many of the neighborhoods in their own city.
The world is really big. Some of the places in it are much cheaper than traveling around the US when you're staying out for longer than a few weeks. And the whole point of traveling is to see something new and different at least to me. California is pretty different from Alabama or North Dakota, but they're quite similar when you compare them with Nicaragua or India.
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Umm... but you'd still be in Peru.
Yes, and it would be wonderful.
How much does it cost to charter a Mercedes somewhere interesting? And at $22 a night, that's over $600 a month, just for lodging. Just sayin'....
You can take the bus just about anywhere there's a road in Peru or in most countries. Some of those buses are way way nicer than Greyhound for a fraction of the price.
$22 is the air conditioned hotel room in a skyscraper price. You can go way cheaper if you practice even the least amount of Mustachianism. You can live on nearly nothing if you enjoy camping out by the lake and relaxing.
The US is a great country to see. It can be cheap if you're already set up here and don't move around a whole lot, but it's quite expensive from the outside looking in when you compare apples to apples. I get that some people want to stick to developed countries where things are clean and orderly. I get that you can save a lot of money by sticking close to home and camping out. I just don't think it's where this thread was headed, though.
On some level I'm jealous of the people who are happy near home. That 5000 mile plane ticket is expensive. Some of us unfortunately have the itch to see those dirty, smelly, chaotic, wonderful places a long ways from wherever the lottery of birth lottery plopped us down.
Hey, at least it's not Ohio...
Or Detroit :)
No one was saying you can't travel abroad for cheap. The argument was made that traveling domestically can be cheap as well. I'm sure Peru is wonderful (never been, but dated a very nice young women from there. Good Allah could she cook).
And one could probably BUY in Detroit for the similar price of renting in Peru. :D
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This showed up as one of the rockstarfinance article's today...thought it may be of interest to this thread...
http://frugalvagabond.com/2016/07/07/retire-abroad-july-2016-1200/
Thanks Andy and others who have shared the series in this thread. It's humbling and gratifying that people enjoy it. Obviously, my fiancée and I are pro-retirement abroad, but not because we don't love the US. We just happen to love immersing ourselves in other places and cultures, too. One of the big advantages of FIRE is that you can slow your travel way, way down, and get much closer to the prices paid by locals by booking housing for longer durations.
I write the series linked above for our own gratification as much as anyone else's. Putting into context where we could go tomorrow if necessary makes our footing on the path to FI feel much more secure, and gives us an inkling of the real freedom that awaits us ahead.
Your USA retirement/rental income might be heavily taxed in some of those countries you mention, if you would decide to relocate there.
Seems there is no provision for probably the biggest cost item in your budgets : local taxes on your income.
Or did I miss that topic?
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The argument was made that traveling domestically can be cheap as well.
You can make the US fairly cheap if you go full on Mustachian, but that same level of Mustachianism will take you much further in so many other parts of the world. When you compare apples to apples, the US is way more expensive than other places.
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings_by_country.jsp
And one could probably BUY in Detroit for the similar price of renting in Peru. :D
Yes, but I'd rather be in Peru than some third-world country ;)
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And one could probably BUY in Detroit for the similar price of renting in Peru. :D
Yes, but I'd rather be in Peru than some third-world country ;)
(http://m.memegen.com/syxf7s.jpg)
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Your USA retirement/rental income might be heavily taxed in some of those countries you mention, if you would decide to relocate there.
Seems there is no provision for probably the biggest cost item in your budgets : local taxes on your income.
Or did I miss that topic?
Speaking for ourselves, we'll be slow traveling, so we don't anticipate remaining anyplace long enough to be subject to local taxation. Most likely six months at a time where possible. I always try to be very clear that the budgets cover a basic basket of necessities that roughly represent the lean FIRE budgets reported by a variety of sources, but not items such as medical emergencies, travel home, or taxation. If it helps to think of the articles as "Retire Abroad on $x per month (after tax)," that works too.
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I've been to over 80 countries and there are some that are quite liveable, at least for awhile:
* Ecuador - loved Quito (stayed for 7 months). Heard good things about Cuenca
* Colombia - like the cities down the Andes. Great festivals.
* Georgia - lovely country. They recently changed the visa (used to be able to stay 360 of 365 days). Relatively cheap flights to Europe.
* Thailand - stayed in Chang Mai for a month. It's hot but there were good comforts
* Sri Lanka - Hill country was nice. Food was great
* Philippines - lots of great beaches, but getting busy.
I missed this post. I'm really glad to here some love for Quito. There's a lot of hate for Quito around the internet. We'll probably go down next year to scope it out, possibly for post-FIRE long-term potential. I liked Lima, and I'm a bit skeptical of some of the claims that Quito is way worse than other big cities in Latin America.
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I've been to over 80 countries and there are some that are quite liveable, at least for awhile:
* Ecuador - loved Quito (stayed for 7 months). Heard good things about Cuenca
* Colombia - like the cities down the Andes. Great festivals.
* Georgia - lovely country. They recently changed the visa (used to be able to stay 360 of 365 days). Relatively cheap flights to Europe.
* Thailand - stayed in Chang Mai for a month. It's hot but there were good comforts
* Sri Lanka - Hill country was nice. Food was great
* Philippines - lots of great beaches, but getting busy.
I missed this post. I'm really glad to here some love for Quito. There's a lot of hate for Quito around the internet. We'll probably go down next year to scope it out, possibly for post-FIRE long-term potential. I liked Lima, and I'm a bit skeptical of some of the claims that Quito is way worse than other big cities in Latin America.
Glad to hear that great experiences were had in Quito. My current post-FIRE plans have me going down there to avoid a Minnesotan winter and to properly learn Spanish. I know my thinking is somewhat ambitious but after learning Spanish, I would like to move to India to learn Hindi (can understand it and speak a little, would be nice to become fluent), and then go from there.
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The USA is huge though. Most who travel abroad have never actually seen much of the USA.
A lot of people who travel the USA haven't seen much of their own state. A lot of people who travel their own state haven't seen many of the neighborhoods in their own city.
The world is really big. Some of the places in it are much cheaper than traveling around the US when you're staying out for longer than a few weeks. And the whole point of traveling is to see something new and different at least to me. California is pretty different from Alabama or North Dakota, but they're quite similar when you compare them with Nicaragua or India.
This is very true. Even though I've rode my bicycle in most of the United States, I'm often surprised when discovering a small rural town in my home state or a new neighborhood in my city.
Still, it's not the same as riding through a country where English isn't spoken and the adventures are often more interesting.
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Glad to hear that great experiences were had in Quito. My current post-FIRE plans have me going down there to avoid a Minnesotan winter and to properly learn Spanish. I know my thinking is somewhat ambitious but after learning Spanish, I would like to move to India to learn Hindi (can understand it and speak a little, would be nice to become fluent), and then go from there.
Ecuador is a great place to learn Spanish. Private lessons can still be had for $7-10 ($5 when I was there 12 years ago) - shop around and maybe try a couple schools for a week at a time. Quito is good if you don't like heat & bugs. Since it's such a small country, it's great for 1-5 day trips to amazon rainforest, cloud forest, hot springs, coast, colonial cities, Andes lakes. There are some great festivals that cost just a few dollars for a bus ride.
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[MOD NOTE: Hyperbole (on either side) doesn't help or enlighten anyone.
Please try to debate with facts and reasoning, and/or just present the good side of yours, if you can't resist insulting the other options if you do address it.]
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Question for those in Portugal, how are the people? My company's salesman is from India and lived in Spain for many years while working, he says that he really didn't like Portugal because they were very rude to him and racist. I know that all regions have all types of people, but I remember mentioning that a friend of mine is going to Portugal and he instantly begged me to stop him/her, when I told him that my friend is white, he relaxed and smiled and said, "They'll have a good time, it's nice and cheap there with great seafood."
Don't really understand, Spain and Portugal are different countries! I can related his comment to Spain but not Portugal.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Question for those in Portugal, how are the people? My company's salesman is from India and lived in Spain for many years while working, he says that he really didn't like Portugal because they were very rude to him and racist. I know that all regions have all types of people, but I remember mentioning that a friend of mine is going to Portugal and he instantly begged me to stop him/her, when I told him that my friend is white, he relaxed and smiled and said, "They'll have a good time, it's nice and cheap there with great seafood."
Don't really understand, Spain and Portugal are different countries! I can related his comment to Spain but not Portugal.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I meant that while he was living in Spain he went to Portugal quite often and felt like he was treated very badly by the Portuguese, while his companions (who were Spaniards) were treated quite well. I don't know how well his experience meshes with other people's.
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Question for those in Portugal, how are the people? My company's salesman is from India and lived in Spain for many years while working, he says that he really didn't like Portugal because they were very rude to him and racist. I know that all regions have all types of people, but I remember mentioning that a friend of mine is going to Portugal and he instantly begged me to stop him/her, when I told him that my friend is white, he relaxed and smiled and said, "They'll have a good time, it's nice and cheap there with great seafood."
Don't really understand, Spain and Portugal are different countries! I can related his comment to Spain but not Portugal.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I meant that while he was living in Spain he went to Portugal quite often and felt like he was treated very badly by the Portuguese, while his companions (who were Spaniards) were treated quite well. I don't know how well his experience meshes with other people's.
I'm not Indian but traveled in Portugal with a friend from the subcontinent and he never had similar issues. In fact, if we're making sweeping generalizations (why not?!) in my experience, Spaniards are among the least inclusive people I've met, certainly among Spanish-speaking countries around the world, but also among European countries. Portuguese, by contrast, were among the warmest and most welcoming. I lived in Spain for a while and found the food delicious and the women beautiful, but that was my experience concerning friendliness/openness. Obviously, YMMV.
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Choose any two of the three options! No Latin American country is safe by US standards. They all have violent crime/murder rates about like Detroit, which Americans hardly consider a safe city. Ditto for most SE Asian countries, except Singapore or Hong Kong. Cheap, fun, and rather dangerous.
And yes, I have lived and worked and vacationed in Latin America and in Asia.
Panama and Nicaragua are both pretty darn safe (the former more than the latter).
El Salvador and (mainland) Honduras have serious crime problems.
Not everything is the same.
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Choose any two of the three options! No Latin American country is safe by US standards. They all have violent crime/murder rates about like Detroit, which Americans hardly consider a safe city. Ditto for most SE Asian countries, except Singapore or Hong Kong. Cheap, fun, and rather dangerous.
And yes, I have lived and worked and vacationed in Latin America and in Asia.
Panama and Nicaragua are both pretty darn safe (the former more than the latter).
El Salvador and (mainland) Honduras have serious crime problems.
Not everything is the same.
A couple ladies left their purses in the van at a pit stop one time in Panama. That would never happen in a lot of places including a lot of the US.