Being Mustachian vs Finding a Partner?

[shotgunwilly]

Here's a question that I battle with in my mind:

How will being mustachian affect finding a partner to spend the rest of my life with?

I am 26 years old and enjoy my life as it is.  I have a great time with great friends, great family, and going on occasional dates.  I enjoy going out and meeting people, although I find it hard to meet someone that peaks my interests, has same values/morals/views as me, (Not necessarily about being frugal or mustachian), and that i'm attracted to.  I have no problem in going out and just "getting laid" if that's what I really wanted, but that is not really my style and never has been.  I want someone to share my life with, but I will not rush to go out and marry someone just to fill a void or have a fairy tale wedding, (which sadly, IMO, alot of young people do.)

The thing is, I go out and meet people, but I spend quite a bit of money doing it. Then, dates cost more money.  I am far from mustachian badassity that many of you are here, but I am ok with that.  I just don't want to spend ALL of my money like most people are doing my age.  They buy new cars, big trucks, nice boats, "stylish" clothes (I think style is bullshit), spend frivolously on going out, and even go in debt to do all of this.  All to impress others and court a mate.  And the sad result... It works.  In our society, (especially those around my age and younger) I see ALOT of females falling for this bs.  They'll end up with someone that lives paycheck to paycheck no matter how much they make, or is in debt.  Yes, that connection may fail in the future, but they still fell for it.

The biggest point would be this...

Do you still go out, be anti-mustachian so that you don't appear to be "poor" or "not cool" in the eyes of others, so that you even have that CHANCE of just speaking to them and possibly something more? (You know what they say about first impressions.)  OR, do you say to hell with what society thinks, be mustachian, not go out, drive something that appears "cheap", wear "cheap" clothes, etc.  And HOPE that you stumble into someone that you would want to spend the rest of your life with?

I feel that it is extremely easier to be frugal once you already have a partner and aren't searching.

[hexdexorex]

Here's a question that I battle with in my mind:

How will being mustachian affect finding a partner to spend the rest of my life with?

I am 26 years old and enjoy my life as it is.  I have a great time with great friends, great family, and going on occasional dates.  I enjoy going out and meeting people, although I find it hard to meet someone that peaks my interests, has same values/morals/views as me, (Not necessarily about being frugal or mustachian), and that i'm attracted to.  I have no problem in going out and just "getting laid" if that's what I really wanted, but that is not really my style and never has been.  I want someone to share my life with, but I will not rush to go out and marry someone just to fill a void or have a fairy tale wedding, (which sadly, IMO, alot of young people do.)

The thing is, I go out and meet people, but I spend quite a bit of money doing it. Then, dates cost more money.  I am far from mustachian badassity that many of you are here, but I am ok with that.  I just don't want to spend ALL of my money like most people are doing my age.  They buy new cars, big trucks, nice boats, "stylish" clothes (I think style is bullshit), spend frivolously on going out, and even go in debt to do all of this.  All to impress others and court a mate.  And the sad result... It works.  In our society, (especially those around my age and younger) I see ALOT of females falling for this bs.  They'll end up with someone that lives paycheck to paycheck no matter how much they make, or is in debt.  Yes, that connection may fail in the future, but they still fell for it.

The biggest point would be this...

Do you still go out, be anti-mustachian so that you don't appear to be "poor" or "not cool" in the eyes of others, so that you even have that CHANCE of just speaking to them and possibly something more? (You know what they say about first impressions.)  OR, do you say to hell with what society thinks, be mustachian, not go out, drive something that appears "cheap", wear "cheap" clothes, etc.  And HOPE that you stumble into someone that you would want to spend the rest of your life with?

I feel that it is extremely easier to be frugal once you already have a partner and aren't searching.

Its true someone who appears secure might be more appealing to a mate. I was lucky enough to find someone that had the same mindset towards money that I had but it can be difficult. I would obviously not get into money on the first date or two, and offer to pay because its still a societal norm (although I have had girls get upset even that I would suggest it).

I think one important thing I try to do is just not talk about price/frugality too much around friends. My cloths are mostly good values...meaning instead of paying 100 I get the same jacket on slickdeals for 15 dollars...etc. Buying cloths from goodwill now a days isnt even a good deal.

When going to a bar or something just buy one drink instead of 5...predrink if you want. Overall yes alot of it is about hiding your frugality because not everyone shares it...but hopefully people are open enough to not care either way. When finding a partner long term I think its important you both are sort of on the same page (a little less important if you dont share a bank account etc) But its not the end all be all of a friendship or a relationship.

[penguin456]

Have you tried online dating?  That might be a good way for you to meet people. When you are in the email phase you can float that one of your goals is early retirement and you try to live below your means to get there and see what the response is.

You dont have to go overboard pretending to be a big spender, but coming off as super cheap is going to be a big turnoff. I went on a date with a guy once who spent half the first date talking about how he saves money. I paid my half and got out of there as fast as i could. Even though being frigal has always been a personal goal and something i wanted in a husband, i was turned off by someone obsessed with it to the exclusion of everything else.

I would expect dating to cost a bit more than you would like. You can plan free things and take her to romantic but inexpensive restaurants, but i would still suggest that you pay for the first couple of dates and occasionally splurge on things important to her. The way you spend your money shows what you value, and in the early dating stages you need to show you value her in addition to FIRE. Once you et beyond the initial stages you can determine how on board she would be with your plans. Expect to make some adjustments to accommodate her priorities, but end any relationship with a spendthrift who has no interest in learning to be frugal. It would result in a lifetime of misery for both of you.

Also, dont judge a book by its cover. There are plenty of frugal girls who still dress nicely and go out with friends.

[Healthie]

I hear you. I'm 23 and I've gone through a similar thought. I think it's just young girls, man. It takes time for girls to learn that the superficial stuff is only short-term gratification and the long term things (frugalty, etc.,) matter more. Although rare- there are girls in their 20s who appreciate "2-for-1" coupon type guys. I've found the closer a girl is to 30 the less they care about superfluous, surface type things, and being a moral, determined, thoughtful man matter more.

It's important to note the differences between how we're raised compared to girls. Girls get bombarded by media that says spending money and having nice/lots of stuff makes you a more valuable person. Coming out of that fog can be challenging because of how strong that belief is built in from a young age. While this is true for both guys and girls, I think guys get off easier.

I agree with the two posters above me- being a little generous goes a long way. It's classy to pay for a first date.

[shotgunwilly]

Thanks for the responses. 

I by no means come off as cheap.  In fact, I still spend way more than I should be in my life.  Also, I always pay for dates.  But what I'm observing (and this isn't always me as the subject) with the large majority of people, is that they may not even give you a chance to even go on a date or even learn a thing about you because of what they perceive as someone who is successful/cool.  (which ironically is the exact opposite in most occasions. i.e they are actually broke/fake.)  I suppose its a judgment problem.

It's actually funny to me when I take a certain best friend of mine out to the bar with me occasionally.  The guy (23 yo) is a rancher and owns 12,000 acres.  (And when i mean rancher, I mean he's out there tending cows and farming for 14 hours a day 360 days out of the year, not having someone else do everything.)  He doesn't buy toys, wears the same wranglers, probably OWNS like 10 shirts, etc... So he gets 0 attention at the bars* from the girls who are looking for successful people.  If only they knew he was worth $50 million... Haha. 

*I know bars aren't the ideal place to meet the best people.

[jpo]

The biggest point would be this...

Do you still go out, be anti-mustachian so that you don't appear to be "poor" or "not cool" in the eyes of others, so that you even have that CHANCE of just speaking to them and possibly something more? (You know what they say about first impressions.)  OR, do you say to hell with what society thinks, be mustachian, not go out, drive something that appears "cheap", wear "cheap" clothes, etc.  And HOPE that you stumble into someone that you would want to spend the rest of your life with?

I feel that it is extremely easier to be frugal once you already have a partner and aren't searching.

This is a false dichotomy. Why choose being mustachian or finding a partner when you can choose both? As many on the board can attest, those aren't mutually exclusive.

[shotgunwilly]

This is a false dichotomy. Why choose being mustachian or finding a partner when you can choose both? As many on the board can attest, those aren't mutually exclusive.

I would wager that the majority of people here either are single or became mustachian AFTER they already had a partner.

[MidwestGal]

I think it depends a lot on the values a woman's parents have, and whether she decides to follow them.

It's important to note the differences between how we're raised compared to girls. Girls get bombarded by media that says spending money and having nice/lots of stuff makes you a more valuable person....I think guys get off easier.

I totally disagree.  What about the commercials, magazines, and other forums that focus on how studly and masculine you can be if you buy this gun/truck/nutrition supplement/workout routine?  And the rise of metrosexuality made it fashionable and even desirable to enjoy some of the same anti-mustachian beauty privileges that some women do.

My story is very different...when I met my spouse, we were both just looking for fun.  It was quite by accident that we discovered we shared the same familial values, as well as personal faith and drive toward higher education.  I'm thankful every day that we found each other, while just trying to hook up!  I paid for the first meal and declined the offer to share the bill.  I think that if your date doesn't at least offer to help pay for the tip out of kindness (especially if you're the type to go to classier places), she may not be that great.

I would wager that the majority of people here either are single or became mustachian AFTER they already had a partner.

I still think that upbringing helps younger people find their way to frugality.  The rest probably needed a 'good' reason, like having a child or saving for a house.

[Pootie22]

I can definitely see your point, I'm 26 and hang out at bars just about every weekend so i know MANY people like that. In a way, it's kind of good that you can "weed" out girls who think that way, I was very lucky to find a very frugal girlfriend 2 years ago. I certainly did not and still do not splurge but one of the things that did impress her was the fact that i owned my own house and had a successful job, these are things that did not "cost" me any money to impress her it was things that i was already doing.
The hard part is finding that girl who knows and appreciates those kind of things, they are certainly out there man just keep looking and don't settle.

[frugalnacho]

I was fairly mustachian before I found this website or my wife.  I did fall prey to a lot of life style inflation and consumerism that in retrospect I wish I hadn't, but I have always been about saving a buck.  I kept my thermostat on 55/45 before it was cool.  I tended to watch a free movie or rent a dvd instead of going to the theater.  I tend not to carry debt (besides mortgage).  I just wish I had found MMM sooner to slap some sense into me about lifestyle inflation and give me some guidance as to what to do with my excess money.  With no FIRE goal in site, and only being in my 20's I tended to waste a lot more money that I should have just because I had it and everyone was encouraging me to "live life".     

My wife is pretty frugal too and was privy to my cheap nature.  It made for a good match.  I agree it is a false dichotomy.  You don't have to go full nonmustachian to find a mate.  It's probably not in your best interest anyway.  Why would you want to find a partner that is non mustachian and will inhibit all your life long goals anyway?

[studentdoc2]

I hear you. I'm 23 and I've gone through a similar thought. I think it's just young girls, man. It takes time for girls to learn that the superficial stuff is only short-term gratification and the long term things (frugalty, etc.,) matter more. Although rare- there are girls in their 20s who appreciate "2-for-1" coupon type guys. I've found the closer a girl is to 30 the less they care about superfluous, surface type things, and being a moral, determined, thoughtful man matter more.

It's important to note the differences between how we're raised compared to girls. Girls get bombarded by media that says spending money and having nice/lots of stuff makes you a more valuable person. Coming out of that fog can be challenging because of how strong that belief is built in from a young age. While this is true for both guys and girls, I think guys get off easier.

I agree with the two posters above me- being a little generous goes a long way. It's classy to pay for a first date.

Okay, let's not place all of our society's materialism on women (and please -- a female in her 20s is a woman, not a girl, just as a male in his 20s is a man, not a boy). Men are just as subject to this.

I would say that for some women (if we're talking about a heterosexual relationship), being a super frugal coupon-type might raise red flags even in the absence of superficiality and materialism. You want some indication that your potential partner is "investing" something in the relationship, that it has some "worth" to him/her. Sure, one could show that by spending money on the dinners, clothes, and bars. But alternatively, putting forth "effort" that happens to be low-cost would express a similar "I'm a serious guy who's looking for a mate" without saying "I'm a cheap guy who's looking to spend as little on our relationship as possible". Home-cooked dinner, wine and cheese at the park, community theater -- anything that indicates you've thought about this and are putting forth some effort.

Paying on a first date -- I'm not going to touch this except to say your mileage will vary hugely, and maybe you'd be a better fit for someone who's fine splitting things.

And plus one million to online dating.

[shotgunwilly]

You don't have to go full nonmustachian to find a mate.  It's probably not in your best interest anyway.  Why would you want to find a partner that is non mustachian and will inhibit all your life long goals anyway?

I agree with this.  It's kind of my point, but also the fact that it makes it much more difficult to find that person.

[shotgunwilly]

I hear you. I'm 23 and I've gone through a similar thought. I think it's just young girls, man. It takes time for girls to learn that the superficial stuff is only short-term gratification and the long term things (frugalty, etc.,) matter more. Although rare- there are girls in their 20s who appreciate "2-for-1" coupon type guys. I've found the closer a girl is to 30 the less they care about superfluous, surface type things, and being a moral, determined, thoughtful man matter more.

It's important to note the differences between how we're raised compared to girls. Girls get bombarded by media that says spending money and having nice/lots of stuff makes you a more valuable person. Coming out of that fog can be challenging because of how strong that belief is built in from a young age. While this is true for both guys and girls, I think guys get off easier.

I agree with the two posters above me- being a little generous goes a long way. It's classy to pay for a first date.

Okay, let's not place all of our society's materialism on women (and please -- a female in her 20s is a woman, not a girl, just as a male in his 20s is a man, not a boy). Men are just as subject to this.

 I knew this would come up in this thread at some point.  I certainly wasn't singling out women in my question, and I do not believe Healthie was either.  When he states "I think it's just young girls man," I believe he is comparing younger females to older more mature females (since I am male and talking about a female partner)... not comparing younger females to younger males.

*edit: had to change "girl" to "female" :P

[Luck12]

I'm several years older than you, OP.  Let me tell you, it's a jungle out there for sure.  It's hard enough finding someone you connect with on all the non-money stuff, let alone adding in MMM values to the equation.    I would just say to be yourself, but at the same time don't sweat the small $$ stuff.   Also, IME, women take notice in a positive way when you are creative in planning dates.  Many enjoy a bike ride and picnic or playing tennis, ping pong, etc.   

Funny I had a date this week and found out she leases a car and didn't know what a mutual fund was and it was a turnoff.  Still giving it another shot, but a non MMM type probably wouldn't bat an eye on this. 

[trailrated]

If only they knew he was worth $50 million... Haha. 

I think if they started off knowing this that would attract the "wrong kind of attention". Most people have difficultly just walking up to someone and getting a date on the spot. I would suggest getting to know someone for a bit before you ask them out. What has worked for me in the past are friends of friends met through group get togethers, meeting someone in a class, volunteering, etc. Give them a chance to get to know who you are for a bit and you will have a much better shot imho.

[studentdoc2]

I hear you. I'm 23 and I've gone through a similar thought. I think it's just young girls, man. It takes time for girls to learn that the superficial stuff is only short-term gratification and the long term things (frugalty, etc.,) matter more. Although rare- there are girls in their 20s who appreciate "2-for-1" coupon type guys. I've found the closer a girl is to 30 the less they care about superfluous, surface type things, and being a moral, determined, thoughtful man matter more.

It's important to note the differences between how we're raised compared to girls. Girls get bombarded by media that says spending money and having nice/lots of stuff makes you a more valuable person. Coming out of that fog can be challenging because of how strong that belief is built in from a young age. While this is true for both guys and girls, I think guys get off easier.

I agree with the two posters above me- being a little generous goes a long way. It's classy to pay for a first date.

Okay, let's not place all of our society's materialism on women (and please -- a female in her 20s is a woman, not a girl, just as a male in his 20s is a man, not a boy). Men are just as subject to this.

 I knew this would come up in this thread at some point.  I certainly wasn't singling out women in my question, and I do not believe Healthie was either.  When he states "I think it's just young girls man," I believe he is comparing younger females to older more mature females (since I am male and talking about a female partner)... not comparing younger females to younger males.

*edit: had to change "girl" to "female" :P

Fair enough -- I didn't get the impression that you were railing against women, nor did I think Healthie was summarily dismissing half of the human race. Just trying to keep it productive :). (and definitely didn't mean to come off as irritated or anything! No ranting! Just a friendly reminder!)
(also, the girl/woman thing is a habit we all tend to have and perhaps not consciously meant to be diminutive -- but it is, and it's something we all (me too) should work on changing)

[shotgunwilly]

Okay, let's not place all of our society's materialism on women (and please -- a female in her 20s is a woman, not a girl, just as a male in his 20s is a man, not a boy). Men are just as subject to this.

Also... I've met many females well into their 20's that I would have no reservations in labeling as "girls" and not "women." I guess the term, for me, is linked to intellectual maturity instead of physical maturity.

As the same for "boys" in their 20's. 

[MidwestGal]

Yeah, I agree with the whole online dating deal.  If somebody fills out their profile or whatever completely then you may be able to glean some good info from that.  And getting away from the whole dinner/movie thing is good too.  Cook a meal together at home?  Go rock scrambling together before a picnic?  Just stay the hell away from bars and clubs if you want to find somebody compatible, unless you won the lottery in terms of bar finds!

...just keep looking and don't settle.

Amen.  She's out there for you.

[Cheddar Stacker]

This is a false dichotomy. Why choose being mustachian or finding a partner when you can choose both? As many on the board can attest, those aren't mutually exclusive.

I would wager that the majority of people here either are single or became mustachian AFTER they already had a partner.

Agreed, if for no other reason than the website has been around 3 years so there was more time to get married, then find the site vs. find the site, then get married.

It's a tough question for sure. I'm married and we've always been a bit different in our money management. I'm the saver, and finding this site last year has only made our money differences grow. I would never change my circumstances based on this alone.

If I were single and mustachian, I would consider money management in a potential mate, but it would be one of many factors. No one is perfect, and every relationship includes some compromise, so you have to weigh the pros and cons.

Good luck shotgun.

[frugaliknowit]

I suggest you meet potential mates "organically" i.e. via activities you have in common like hobbies or sports and through friends.  This gives you the opportunity to get to know them a bit and make friends before you go on a "date".  This way they'll have an idea on the front end as to your spending attitudes (like if you're in a bike club and have a $5,000 bike..., what you drive, where you live/work, etc.).  I believe the on-line route will yield much disappointment to a frugal person seeking a financially compatible mate.   

[kaizen soze]

Wanted: SF, 21-25, must like pina coladas (homemade) and getting caught in the rain (while on bicycle).  No spendthrifts please.  Mustache preferred.

[Numbers Man]

shotgunwilly - Not all females or males for that matter spend like there's no tomorrow. You just need to put yourself out there in a variety of places and situations. Sounds like you're mature enough to shit-can the bar scene. And don't be so quick to judge. My wife had a department store credit card which she was "paying on time" when we first met. I had no idea what "paying on time" was. She was paying the minimum balance, she just didn't know any better. I never really dictated frugality to her. She just naturally morphed into it. I guess she followed my lead over the years. We each have our hot buttons about what we are frugal about but don't carry it to the extreme on every area of our lives.

[shotgunwilly]

Wanted: SF, 21-25, must like pina coladas (homemade) and getting caught in the rain (while on bicycle).  No spendthrifts please.  Mustache preferred.

Bingo.

[homeymomma]

Start by not referring to women as "females"

[shotgunwilly]

Start by not referring to women as "females"

Umm, I was referring to plural of the opposite sex. Aka "females."

[Hugerat]

Whoa, let's give the ladies more credit than this! They're no more or less frugal than we are. In a few short years your male friends will have ridiculous contraptions like ride-on mowers and other nonsense. Being frugal just means you need to find more creative ways to make dates interesting that don't involve throwing down huge wads of cash. What about a picnic? How about just coffee? It's the conversation that makes the date, not the food. I've invited even first dates over for a home cooked meal on more than one occasion and none went badly (helps if you know her a little bit first). I assure you, she'll be much more impressed if you make her laugh than if you have a high paying job or your own house.

[puglogic]

I suggest you meet potential mates "organically" i.e. via activities you have in common like hobbies or sports and through friends.  This gives you the opportunity to get to know them a bit and make friends before you go on a "date".  This way they'll have an idea on the front end as to your spending attitudes (like if you're in a bike club and have a $5,000 bike..., what you drive, where you live/work, etc.). 

Amen that.  If I want to find anti-mustachian people, I look to those who habitually hang out in bars for fun, or to find a mate.  You find lots (not all, but lots) of people who are superficial, who like vacuous entertainment and who like blowing a lot of money on getting drunk.  What's mustachian about that?   I find kindred spirits in meetups, hiking, at the dog park, at bookstores, in adult ed classes on frugal topics.  But I wouldn't entirely rule out online dating - just make your dates somewhere better than a bar, unless that's the only thing you enjoy.

[Hugerat]

What attracted me to my (now) husband of 20+ years was that he was very clear about his goals and lifestyle even at age 27. He wasn't trying to put on a show or fit in. We would talk about how he was putting away money and other things that shouted "secure/trustworthy" to me. I was really stupid about money back then (I was 23), BUT I also knew that flashy, superficial guys were useless to me. Be yourself, socialize in groups that do what you enjoy doing (not just drinking in bars)--intramural sports? running club? volunteering? whatever...then when you meet The One there she'll be showing you she is interested in at least some of the things you are. She's out there volunteering at a dog shelter or hiking local trails wondering where to meet a sensible, financially stable guy.

The running club is an excellent idea. I happen to be in a large one and we have countless couples who met throgh the club. Plus, runners have great legs ;)

[agent_clone]

Plus if you meet people through activities their more likely to be interested in the things you are.

In regards to spending males vs females my understanding was that as a general thing (I note this is general, so not all), women tend to shop more frequently but look for better deals and perhaps make smaller purchases, whereas men tend to go look for what they want and buy it no matter the cost, also they perhaps make larger purchases.  The amount actually spent is approximately the same.  As it is a generalisation your mileage varies.

[homeymomma]

Start by not referring to women as "females"

Umm, I was referring to plural of the opposite sex. Aka "females."

Yes, it's technically accurate. But I can't think of a faster way to alienate many, many women. Well, that's just not true, there are lots of other ways. Lol. But it's just not very respectful. Just something to consider... I promise I'm not the only one who feels this way :)

[Weyfarere]

It's actually funny to me when I take a certain best friend of mine out to the bar with me occasionally.  The guy (23 yo) is a rancher and owns 12,000 acres.  (And when i mean rancher, I mean he's out there tending cows and farming for 14 hours a day 360 days out of the year, not having someone else do everything.)  He doesn't buy toys, wears the same wranglers, probably OWNS like 10 shirts, etc... So he gets 0 attention at the bars* from the girls who are looking for successful people.  If only they knew he was worth $50 million... Haha. 

I know it's not the point of this story, but "farming for 14 hours a day 360 days out of the year" is a major relationship handicap, no matter what his net worth is.

Also +1 for online dating as a way to meet people you might not otherwise run into.

[Latwell]

If a guy actually took me out on a pricey date, I would feel uncomfortable b/c I'd be stuck wondering if he constantly spends this kind of money.

If you meet a girl you like, I'd avoid expensive dates and opt for different options. Instead of asking a girl out, you can ask if they want to hangout. Watch a movie at your place or something. Times have changes. Formal dates are uncommon in my opinion.

You sound like you are on a smarter path when it comes to finances and dating. As long as your content with yourself, love will find it's way. It's nice to hear someone not trying to push for it though. Everyone I know is so worked up on finding someone to share their bed with; they forget to enjoy their own company.

[Worsted Skeins]

As many of us will attest, it is a false dichotomy to be Mustachian or to find a partner.

Get out of the bars and embrace life, young man!  (Says the Mustachian Mum!)

[trailrated]

Best mustachian date I have been on was a few weeks ago. Borrowed a pick up from work (thanks boss!) Put my couch in the back, bottle of wine, drive in movies $20 total and an awesome time.

[shotgunwilly]

Times have changes. Formal dates are uncommon in my opinion.

This is absolutely true. I tell people this all the time. And I don't like it.

[shotgunwilly]

Best mustachian date I have been on was a few weeks ago. Borrowed a pick up from work (thanks boss!) Put my couch in the back, bottle of wine, drive in movies $20 total and an awesome time.

Those are exactly my type of dates. Love the drive in!

I like going to the lake too.

[StarryC]

"stylish" clothes (I think style is bullshit),

One thing to search your soul about- are you allowing women the same leeway you give yourself?  Men often say they don't want to spend money on expensive clothes or cars or whatever to impress women.  They want frugal, practical women, not gold diggers!  Down to Earth Women. . .  so long as those women LOOK like they have a personal trainer, go to the salon every week for waxings, get a $100 haircut ever 6 weeks, spend an 30 minutes a day on makeup, and respond to his texts within 10 minutes. 

But, it might be that the values you are looking for are more commonly found in the ladies who go to bed early for work, make meals at their house, pack lunches, and don't spend much on their looks.  Their hair might not be as bouncy, because the bike helmet crushed it.  They might be wearing comfortable jeans because they think the sexiest, trendiest jeans just aren't worth the $200.  They might feel that high heels are expensive and harmful and impractical.  She might avoid the bars and clubs because she knows she won't be the prettiest, most done up one there, and so those places make her feel bad or don't attract what she's looking for. 

Reasoning on "females" being creepy:  Their are females of all species, not just humans.  So, it sometimes makes it seem like you view human women as non-human.  It also essentializes human women to their reproductive capability in a way.  Finally, it's popular in the pick up artist community.  It might, therefore indicate that you are out "negging" and trying to beat those "beta males."  The women you say you want are probably not into that! 

[trailrated]

"stylish" clothes (I think style is bullshit),

One thing to search your soul about- are you allowing women the same leeway you give yourself?  Men often say they don't want to spend money on expensive clothes or cars or whatever to impress women.  They want frugal, practical women, not gold diggers!  Down to Earth Women. . .  so long as those women LOOK like they have a personal trainer, go to the salon every week for waxings, get a $100 haircut ever 6 weeks, spend an 30 minutes a day on makeup, and respond to his texts within 10 minutes. 

But, it might be that the values you are looking for are more commonly found in the ladies who go to bed early for work, make meals at their house, pack lunches, and don't spend much on their looks.  Their hair might not be as bouncy, because the bike helmet crushed it.  They might be wearing comfortable jeans because they think the sexiest, trendiest jeans just aren't worth the $200.  They might feel that high heels are expensive and harmful and impractical.  She might avoid the bars and clubs because she knows she won't be the prettiest, most done up one there, and so those places make her feel bad or don't attract what she's looking for. 

Very well said, could not agree more!

Reasoning on "females" being creepy:  Their are females of all species, not just humans.  So, it sometimes makes it seem like you view human women as non-human.  It also essentializes human women to their reproductive capability in a way.  Finally, it's popular in the pick up artist community.  It might, therefore indicate that you are out "negging" and trying to beat those "beta males."  The women you say you want are probably not into that!

You lost me here, I think you are reading wayyyy to into it. I hope that doesn't make me an asshole for not being able to grasp where you are coming from. I think a big part of being offended about something is the intent. I do not think that was the intent of the poster. That being said if we were talking to you in the future I would use a term you are more comfortable with out of respect to you.

[StarryC]

Sure, I'm not saying he meant it this way.  However, it gets read this way by most women I know.  Therefore, in the dating world, it's best to avoid saying things that have a hidden meaning you don't mean!  I mean, you might not mean to be racist, but if you call a 25 year old black man "boy", people will probably think you are!   It's just a word to the wise. 

Here are some links in which women talk about how this creeps them out:
http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2013/02/is_calling_a_woman_a_female_offensive.html
http://jezebel.com/5613279/men-who-refer-to-women-as-females-rarely-meet-my-approval
http://www.complex.com/city-guide/2013/04/15-unintentionally-annoying-things-guys-do-to-women/call-women-females

[trailrated]

Sure, I'm not saying he meant it this way.  However, it gets read this way by most women I know.  Therefore, in the dating world, it's best to avoid saying things that have a hidden meaning you don't mean!  I mean, you might not mean to be racist, but if you call a 25 year old black man "boy", people will probably think you are!   It's just a word to the wise. 

Here are some links in which women talk about how this creeps them out:
http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2013/02/is_calling_a_woman_a_female_offensive.html
http://jezebel.com/5613279/men-who-refer-to-women-as-females-rarely-meet-my-approval
http://www.complex.com/city-guide/2013/04/15-unintentionally-annoying-things-guys-do-to-women/call-women-females

I stand corrected, thanks for the info :)

[Cheddar Stacker]

"stylish" clothes (I think style is bullshit),

One thing to search your soul about- are you allowing women the same leeway you give yourself?  Men often say they don't want to spend money on expensive clothes or cars or whatever to impress women.  They want frugal, practical women, not gold diggers!  Down to Earth Women. . .  so long as those women LOOK like they have a personal trainer, go to the salon every week for waxings, get a $100 haircut ever 6 weeks, spend an 30 minutes a day on makeup, and respond to his texts within 10 minutes. 

But, it might be that the values you are looking for are more commonly found in the ladies who go to bed early for work, make meals at their house, pack lunches, and don't spend much on their looks.  Their hair might not be as bouncy, because the bike helmet crushed it.  They might be wearing comfortable jeans because they think the sexiest, trendiest jeans just aren't worth the $200.  They might feel that high heels are expensive and harmful and impractical.  She might avoid the bars and clubs because she knows she won't be the prettiest, most done up one there, and so those places make her feel bad or don't attract what she's looking for. 

Very well said, could not agree more!

Reasoning on "females" being creepy:  Their are females of all species, not just humans.  So, it sometimes makes it seem like you view human women as non-human.  It also essentializes human women to their reproductive capability in a way.  Finally, it's popular in the pick up artist community.  It might, therefore indicate that you are out "negging" and trying to beat those "beta males."  The women you say you want are probably not into that!

You lost me here, I think you are reading wayyyy to into it. I hope that doesn't make me an asshole for not being able to grasp where you are coming from. I think a big part of being offended about something is the intent. I do not think that was the intent of the poster. That being said if we were talking to you in the future I would use a term you are more comfortable with out of respect to you.

I agree. You (starry) are implying all those things from one word someone else wrote. I never would've reached those conclusions. It's important to not take offense when none is intended and few people on this forum have ill intentions.

I would like to give you credit though for using the term "negging". Very nice.

[frogger]

You lost me here, I think you are reading wayyyy to into it. I hope that doesn't make me an asshole for not being able to grasp where you are coming from. I think a big part of being offended about something is the intent. I do not think that was the intent of the poster. That being said if we were talking to you in the future I would use a term you are more comfortable with out of respect to you.

Trailrated, this is not a direct response to you, but a general point, since you've noted the correction.

"Female" is best used as an adjective when referring to human girls/women (as "male" ought to be for boys/men). "Female(s)" as a noun is appropriate in a Discovery Channel show about animals, and applied to human girls/women is, if not a direct indicator of not seeing women as people, at least a flag to be wary. Whether it's been used that way in this thread or not, it's used that way in enough spaces and for a derogatory enough reason that it can be a warning sign.

It's especially the case when (again, not saying that happened here) the person uses "men" and "females". Major red flag.

If you're not a woman, it may seem a needless distinction. If you are a woman, chances are the distinction is much needed.

OP, I nth the suggestion to let relationships grow out of activities you enjoy. When you get to know people in a context outside of an immediate assessment of dateability (on your side as well as hers), it takes the pressure off that often misleading first impression. Plus you're likely to have some shared interests and you'll hopefully have a good time either way.

[Argyle]

I second the point about "female."

If you wonder "How do women assess a man?  What little change could I make that would be incredibly easy to me but make me more appealing to women?", well, there's one of the secrets.

[totoro]

I just couldn't care less whether someone refers to me as female/girl/woman.

What I care about:

1. easy-goingness
2. similar interests
3. similar backgrounds
4. similar values
5. kindness
6. empathy
7. bad habits
8. good habits

I think you just have to keep putting yourself out there until you find a good match.  Online dating is good for exposure.  Not all young women will be blinded by credit.

[William]

It's actually funny to me when I take a certain best friend of mine out to the bar with me occasionally.  The guy (23 yo) is a rancher and owns 12,000 acres.  (And when i mean rancher, I mean he's out there tending cows and farming for 14 hours a day 360 days out of the year, not having someone else do everything.)  He doesn't buy toys, wears the same wranglers, probably OWNS like 10 shirts, etc... So he gets 0 attention at the bars* from the girls who are looking for successful people.  If only they knew he was worth $50 million... Haha. 

That literally made me LOL.  I know the type.  Reminds me of The Millionaire Next Door.

I wonder what the ratio is among women who are spenders and women who are savers.  Say it's 25 to 1.  That's based on my experience.  So you need to meet 25 women before you meet one that sees eye-to-eye on money.  So finding a woman who you love that is on the same page with money may take hundreds of dates.  So I'll agree with everyone else and say to try online dating.  It's a numbers game and there's no faster way of meeting people than with the internet.

Nice to meet you by the way.

[Cressida]

On avoiding "female" as a noun - if nothing else will convince people - think of the Ferengi. :)

[mm1970]

Here's a question that I battle with in my mind:

How will being mustachian affect finding a partner to spend the rest of my life with?

I am 26 years old and enjoy my life as it is.  I have a great time with great friends, great family, and going on occasional dates.  I enjoy going out and meeting people, although I find it hard to meet someone that peaks my interests, has same values/morals/views as me, (Not necessarily about being frugal or mustachian), and that i'm attracted to.  I have no problem in going out and just "getting laid" if that's what I really wanted, but that is not really my style and never has been.  I want someone to share my life with, but I will not rush to go out and marry someone just to fill a void or have a fairy tale wedding, (which sadly, IMO, alot of young people do.)

The thing is, I go out and meet people, but I spend quite a bit of money doing it. Then, dates cost more money.  I am far from mustachian badassity that many of you are here, but I am ok with that.  I just don't want to spend ALL of my money like most people are doing my age.  They buy new cars, big trucks, nice boats, "stylish" clothes (I think style is bullshit), spend frivolously on going out, and even go in debt to do all of this.  All to impress others and court a mate.  And the sad result... It works.  In our society, (especially those around my age and younger) I see ALOT of females falling for this bs.  They'll end up with someone that lives paycheck to paycheck no matter how much they make, or is in debt.  Yes, that connection may fail in the future, but they still fell for it.

The biggest point would be this...

Do you still go out, be anti-mustachian so that you don't appear to be "poor" or "not cool" in the eyes of others, so that you even have that CHANCE of just speaking to them and possibly something more? (You know what they say about first impressions.)  OR, do you say to hell with what society thinks, be mustachian, not go out, drive something that appears "cheap", wear "cheap" clothes, etc.  And HOPE that you stumble into someone that you would want to spend the rest of your life with?

I feel that it is extremely easier to be frugal once you already have a partner and aren't searching.

So, I know my experience is 22 years old.  But when my husband and I met (at work, in the Navy).
We were early 20's.
He drove an '86 Chevy Nova with rust.  I guess it was only 1992, so only six years old, but still.
We didn't "dress".
Our first date was $6 to play volleyball indoors at a high school, then he made me spaghetti.  Our second date was a movie.

So, you can meet people like you.  Just have to figure out where they are, where they hang out.

[iris lily]

Hang out with graduate students, they are savvy about having fun at little cost. Or hang out with the outdoorsy crowd. Although they can have some serious gear addictions, they don't purposely spend money on highly consumerist activities and "stuff."

For me, I wouldn't entertain the notion of a serious relationship back when I was young with someone who treated money frivolously. Debt and being a spendthrift--instant turnoff.

[socaso]

I think people who are involved in activities they are passionate about have a better chance of meeting someone they would be compatible with. You could check meetup in your area for clubs and social groups involved in things you like. There are biking groups, hiking groups, you could volunteer regularly with an organization you like, so on and so forth. Also you will be busy with activities that are basically free and you will stop fretting about finding a partner. That is generally acknowledged to be a very appealing state for a person to be in.

I didn't meet my husband until I was 30 and even though we have compatible views about money we still have disagreements about it that go like this,
"I want to save money THIS way!!"
"Well, I want to save it like THIS!"
"You are NOT listening to me!"
"You are making me CRAZY!!"
*March across room, slam door*
*March in a different direction, slam different door*

[ch12]

"stylish" clothes (I think style is bullshit),

One thing to search your soul about- are you allowing women the same leeway you give yourself?  Men often say they don't want to spend money on expensive clothes or cars or whatever to impress women.  They want frugal, practical women, not gold diggers!  Down to Earth Women. . .  so long as those women LOOK like they have a personal trainer, go to the salon every week for waxings, get a $100 haircut ever 6 weeks, spend an 30 minutes a day on makeup, and respond to his texts within 10 minutes. 

But, it might be that the values you are looking for are more commonly found in the ladies who go to bed early for work, make meals at their house, pack lunches, and don't spend much on their looks.  Their hair might not be as bouncy, because the bike helmet crushed it.  They might be wearing comfortable jeans because they think the sexiest, trendiest jeans just aren't worth the $200.  They might feel that high heels are expensive and harmful and impractical.  She might avoid the bars and clubs because she knows she won't be the prettiest, most done up one there, and so those places make her feel bad or don't attract what she's looking for. 

Very well said, could not agree more!

I'm 22. I don't think that it's fair to paint all 20-something women as superficial people who need to be impressed by a display of wealth. It's selection bias, I think. I like bars and clubs, actually, but I don't really go to them. When I live in major cities, I go to them all the time, because it's part of the rhythm of life.

I don't live in a major city (well, what I would consider a major city) right now, and my life has a much quieter pace. Church choir on Monday nights and Sunday mornings, yoga on Tuesdays, hanging out with buddies on Wednesday nights, Thursdays and Fridays rest because I'm probably sleep deprived at that point and tired from work, Saturday errands. On occasion, I'll go out on a Friday or Saturday with friends, but it's really not part of my normal rhythm.

How are you going to encounter a nice Mustachian girl if the only place you're trying to find one is a bar/club? You have to look in the right place, like volunteering somewhere for a cause that means something to you. The easiest is probably the Mustachian and Single area.