Author Topic: Getting married next week, should we have 1 checking account or seperate ?  (Read 4209 times)

Malcat

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Re: Getting married next week, should we have 1 checking account or seperate ?
« Reply #100 on: September 24, 2021, 12:05:06 PM »
I meant the legal regime of no-fault divorce is a crime against humanity. Not anybody's individual life circumstances. I could've been clearer I suppose. And it's off topic. Apologies, and best wishes to the betrothed!

So you either want people stuck in miserable marriages unless one partner has committed adultery, abuse or fraud? Or, you want to burden the legal system with a tribunal that has to determine on a case by case basis if the marriage is actually bad enough to warrant a divorce??

You think it's a crime against humanity for a couple who make each other absolutely miserable to break up???

I mean, okay, you're entitled to that opinion, but again, I think that means you have a wonky definition of the word "fact", as that is an opinion, and one that is not in any way universally factual.

I, for one, am absolutely thrilled that my husband didn't stay married to his first wife who after they got married quit her job and patently refused to ever work again despite lying to him for two years that her dream was to become a police officer and that she wanted to quit her job to go back to school, but instead upon getting married and quitting, picked up a heavy pot smoking, booze drinking, and ice cream eating habit and got really obsessed with the Kardashians, and then racked up boat loads of debt in store credit cards.

Yep, sounds like a total crime against humanity that he ended that horrible, horrible marriage less than a year after making that naive mistake. It's too bad there wasn't a law forcing him to pay for that error in judgement for the rest of his life, just hoping she would cheat on him or hit him so that he would have the right to get divorced.

Oh well, I guess instead he had to commit the crime against humanity of getting  no-fault divorced, growing up A LOT, and then getting into an excellent and healthy marriage where he's grown as a person, and a professional, and is happier and healthier than he's ever been.
Such a crime.

Christof

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Re: Getting married next week, should we have 1 checking account or seperate ?
« Reply #101 on: September 24, 2021, 04:00:16 PM »
I could've been clearer I suppose.

Don’t worry. You have been very clear..

Abe

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Re: Getting married next week, should we have 1 checking account or seperate ?
« Reply #102 on: September 24, 2021, 09:54:31 PM »
Wow, this thread got weird.

To clarify, Is it a crime against humanity like Auschwitz, like Hiroshima, or like the Rwandan genocide? Yeah I guess in some people’s minds the wholesale slaughter of millions is like getting a divorce, but honestly once the dust settles most people do relatively ok from the latter…

Also, if it’s a “think of the children” thing, children don’t normally die from parents divorcing, and especially not in boxcar loads.

Sorry, I just get irritated when people use other people’s terrible suffering as a debate technique.

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: Getting married next week, should we have 1 checking account or seperate ?
« Reply #103 on: September 25, 2021, 12:50:46 AM »
I’ll bite. We had a joint account to pay joint bills and separate accounts to manage as we saw fit. I wouldn’t ever change that and whatever committed relationship I have next will have the same set up. No one was irresponsible. It was nice to use our own money to surprise each other. It was nice to use our own money to buy presents for friends and family as we saw fit. It was nice to not ask for permission to be adults. All big decisions made together. We’re a couple and we’re individuals and there’s nothing wrong with that.

iris lily

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Re: Getting married next week, should we have 1 checking account or seperate ?
« Reply #104 on: September 25, 2021, 09:52:53 AM »
well said sir. Ill take heed to your advice as I am a Christian and marriage to me a convenant promise.

A covenant is just a formal promise, nothing to do with religion.  I'm a lowly heretic agnostic, and I view marriage as a covenant promise too.

:P

I just think a lot of young, stupid people get married well before really knowing themselves, and then have a lot of shit to deal with that either brings them close together or rips them apart.

I don't think the level of conviction going into a marriage has all that much to do with its success. I've seen some total pricks swear up and down that divorce is not an option, and then totally fail to be vulnerable and generous enough to make that a reality.

Most marriages either end, hence the divorce rate, or really should end, hence all of the utterly miserable marriages out there.

A marriage staying healthy, strong, loving, and trusting for decades is the exception, not the rule.

It's about figuring out what tools you need to consistently grow together instead of apart through difficult times, not throwing down who has the biggest cock of commitment.
I think a lot of the danger of the 'divorce is not an option' school of thought is the unspoken coda "...therefore I don't have to do anything to make you want to stay." Divorce *is* an option, marriage is not a deathmarch.

I agree. There’s one unmarried couple I read about who convinced me they really have their shit together in their careful consideration of their deliberately unmarried commitment.

Their philosophy was that they did not want a legal tie because they thought it was more important to focus on their relationship every day, not taking it for granted, always breathing life and health into it.
In other words, they placed their commitment to one another higher  than the societal institution of marriage.

I think that idea is interesting and cool, and perhaps it’s held by many unmarried couples I don’t know. I just know that it seems to me so many people drift from dating into living together and there’s no real thought process about remaining un-legally yoked.

Malcat

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Re: Getting married next week, should we have 1 checking account or seperate ?
« Reply #105 on: September 25, 2021, 10:33:10 AM »
well said sir. Ill take heed to your advice as I am a Christian and marriage to me a convenant promise.

A covenant is just a formal promise, nothing to do with religion.  I'm a lowly heretic agnostic, and I view marriage as a covenant promise too.

:P

I just think a lot of young, stupid people get married well before really knowing themselves, and then have a lot of shit to deal with that either brings them close together or rips them apart.

I don't think the level of conviction going into a marriage has all that much to do with its success. I've seen some total pricks swear up and down that divorce is not an option, and then totally fail to be vulnerable and generous enough to make that a reality.

Most marriages either end, hence the divorce rate, or really should end, hence all of the utterly miserable marriages out there.

A marriage staying healthy, strong, loving, and trusting for decades is the exception, not the rule.

It's about figuring out what tools you need to consistently grow together instead of apart through difficult times, not throwing down who has the biggest cock of commitment.
I think a lot of the danger of the 'divorce is not an option' school of thought is the unspoken coda "...therefore I don't have to do anything to make you want to stay." Divorce *is* an option, marriage is not a deathmarch.

I agree. There’s one unmarried couple I read about who convinced me they really have their shit together in their careful consideration of their deliberately unmarried commitment.

Their philosophy was that they did not want a legal tie because they thought it was more important to focus on their relationship every day, not taking it for granted, always breathing life and health into it.
In other words, they placed their commitment to one another higher  than the societal institution of marriage.

I think that idea is interesting and cool, and perhaps it’s held by many unmarried couples I don’t know. I just know that it seems to me so many people drift from dating into living together and there’s no real thought process about remaining un-legally yoked.

True, but it's also pretty easy just to move out in those situations as well.

I've casually moved in with a number of partners and just as easily moved back out when it wasn't working.

I had one that I lived with very seriously for years, but we didn't want to get legally married. As things got more serious though, so did our conversations about money and long term planning.

It's not like those who get married are all that much better about talking about money either, so I don't really get your point.

Most couples don't talk responsibly about money, whether married or not.

Also, many of those couples who are married were previously people who just "drifted" into living together beforehand, so it's not like it's a separate population.

Villanelle

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Re: Getting married next week, should we have 1 checking account or seperate ?
« Reply #106 on: September 26, 2021, 01:43:32 PM »
I meant the legal regime of no-fault divorce is a crime against humanity. Not anybody's individual life circumstances. I could've been clearer I suppose. And it's off topic. Apologies, and best wishes to the betrothed!

Between that and your swipe at the Germans, I think we all have a pretty accurate picture of where you stand.  You've been exceptionally clear on your worldview.  And even after this "clarification", I agree with Malcat about your intrepretation of "fact".

Imma

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Re: Getting married next week, should we have 1 checking account or seperate ?
« Reply #107 on: October 04, 2021, 02:13:57 PM »
OP hasn't been back, so I'm not going to feel bad for highjacking this thread.  I had a little snit fit/ knee jerk reaction to this thread and thankfully deleted it, once I got over myself.

But now I honesty want to ask.

Why is pooling the "of course" and separate the "but why" choice?  I've never seen separate as something to justify, or fix, or like we're doing something sub-optimal.  I also don't see it as a choice that's about how we would divid things at the possible ending, but as the choice we made during the doing.  But will pooling our money really make us a happier couple?  My main goal for FIRE is to increase my happiness, so maybe I've been looking at this wrong?

We keep our finances totally separate.  I like knowing that I'm doing this thing together, but also as individuals. I'm a big fan of the two trees in a forest thing, together but as individuals. (yes I've read the research on tree symbiosis, but the metaphor still works, lol)

My partner and I talk about money a lot, a lot a lot.  I love to talk about my FIRE plans and go on and on.  I convinced him that he had more than enough to FIRE 4ish years ago.  He was grateful to have my support and to give him the push he needed to not OMY.  I'll fire end of 2025.

What am I missing that we would get from pooling?

Pooling, to a certain degree, by default matches the laws as they apply to marriage.

If you want to keep things separate, your arrangement is in opposition to most jurisdiction's marriage laws, so you need to customize those laws with a prenup to make a separate finances situation safe and reasonable.

Otherwise, as I have said repeatedly in this thread, separate finances are INCREDIBLY dangerous, as it leaves each person totally blind to what's happening in half of the financial affairs of their own legal financial entity.

This would be like two business partners running different departments and acting like each is a separate company when in fact, they're one legal financial entity. One side can take both sides down.

If you want to operate as separate financial entities within a contract that is designed *not* to work that way, then you have to customize that contract.

That tends to be a lot more work and hassle. Hence why it's not the default.

Also, the VAST majority of people who keep separate finances do so to avoid talking about money. So the behaviour tends to correlate with poor financial relations while also dramatically raising risk.

It's GREAT that separate finances works for your marriage, but I don't think the generally judgement against it has anything to do with couples like you and your spouse.

It has to do with the overwhelming number of people out there who avoid talking about money at all costs, and who actively hide their personal finances from their partner, which is far, FAR more common than your situation.

I'm not sure about that. At least not where I live. I'm a tax professional and I've worked with many couples, married, unmarried, rich, poor, working class, middle class.

The vast majority of people that keep seperate finances in practice (as in - have seperate accounts that are used for more than just "pocket money" because pocket money bank accounts where each spouse gets €100 or €200 for spending seem to be pretty common here) also have seperate finances legally, as in, a pre-nup. Probably around 80%. And most have very good reasons other than "not wanting to talk about money" because drafting up the legal paperwork requires lots of conversations and is much harder than just getting married and accepting the terms and conditions set by the state. In most cases it has to do with inherited wealth or business ownerships, people who keep seperate finances out of principle like we do are much harder to find. Being a tax professional with a law degree, of course we have the necessary documents put in place.

The two most risky situations that I encounter far more often than "people having seperate finances in practice but not legally" are those two:
- people who are married and have legally combined finances, but one person pays all the bills and earns all or most of the income, where the other person (usually the wife) has no idea at all because "I'm not good with numbers". For many people this works out fine in the end. I have also encountered people whose spouse has spent all of the money and got them in massive debt without the other person knowing. I also know of a case where a husband was able to hide having fathered a child with his mistress that he was paying child support for out of their joint account, because his wife never checked the bank statements.
- people who are unmarried, have children and live as if they are married. Particularly if one party, usually the woman, gives up their job to look after the children. Legally you're nothing more than roommates and the only thing you're entitled to is child support. I have seen so many women in this situation including a fellow female tax professional. People don't think it will happen to them. I know of a lady who had children with their partner, but in his will he still left the house that they lived in together in to his ex because he never changed it and I think the life insurance as well. People think it won't happen to them or their family will sort it out between themselves, but of course his ex wasn't going to let go of free money.

The first situation is typically a Boomer couple, but of course it can happen in other generations too. The second couple are usually Milennials who don't love the institute of marriage because their parents are divorced. I don't love the idea of marriage either, so I understand, my parents were divorced too. None of my friends have parents that are still in their first marriage. But at least in my country there are other legal options that are the similar or the same as marriage, like civil partnership. It's important to put some documents in place and talk about money and the financial future.

Malcat

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Re: Getting married next week, should we have 1 checking account or seperate ?
« Reply #108 on: October 04, 2021, 05:43:13 PM »

I'm not sure about that. At least not where I live. I'm a tax professional and I've worked with many couples, married, unmarried, rich, poor, working class, middle class.

The vast majority of people that keep seperate finances in practice (as in - have seperate accounts that are used for more than just "pocket money" because pocket money bank accounts where each spouse gets €100 or €200 for spending seem to be pretty common here) also have seperate finances legally, as in, a pre-nup. Probably around 80%. And most have very good reasons other than "not wanting to talk about money" because drafting up the legal paperwork requires lots of conversations and is much harder than just getting married and accepting the terms and conditions set by the state. In most cases it has to do with inherited wealth or business ownerships, people who keep seperate finances out of principle like we do are much harder to find. Being a tax professional with a law degree, of course we have the necessary documents put in place.

The two most risky situations that I encounter far more often than "people having seperate finances in practice but not legally" are those two:
- people who are married and have legally combined finances, but one person pays all the bills and earns all or most of the income, where the other person (usually the wife) has no idea at all because "I'm not good with numbers". For many people this works out fine in the end. I have also encountered people whose spouse has spent all of the money and got them in massive debt without the other person knowing. I also know of a case where a husband was able to hide having fathered a child with his mistress that he was paying child support for out of their joint account, because his wife never checked the bank statements.
- people who are unmarried, have children and live as if they are married. Particularly if one party, usually the woman, gives up their job to look after the children. Legally you're nothing more than roommates and the only thing you're entitled to is child support. I have seen so many women in this situation including a fellow female tax professional. People don't think it will happen to them. I know of a lady who had children with their partner, but in his will he still left the house that they lived in together in to his ex because he never changed it and I think the life insurance as well. People think it won't happen to them or their family will sort it out between themselves, but of course his ex wasn't going to let go of free money.

The first situation is typically a Boomer couple, but of course it can happen in other generations too. The second couple are usually Milennials who don't love the institute of marriage because their parents are divorced. I don't love the idea of marriage either, so I understand, my parents were divorced too. None of my friends have parents that are still in their first marriage. But at least in my country there are other legal options that are the similar or the same as marriage, like civil partnership. It's important to put some documents in place and talk about money and the financial future.

That's amazing that so many people where you live have pre-nups. It must be a cultural thing, because here, even talking about pre-nups can get people very reactive. Like they've watched too many movies and believe that all pre-nups exist to screw someone over.

It's getting better, but I used to be cautious even mentioning pre-nups in certain company.