The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: nyxst on April 10, 2015, 09:10:11 AM
-
I had written on this forum before about a year ago, I think, about my parents and their terrible financial problems and gotten feedback that improved my clarity. Hoping for more of the same now....
Well, they had some problems through the last year (a few trees fell on their house and destroyed a good portion of it) and the insurance payments didn't cover everything (tree removal wasn't covered except for the tree that landed IN their living room, for example) and they desperately needed cash to get through the ordeal... Long story short, they were supposed to pay me back when the insurance check came. But, in order to get the final payment from insurance, all the work needed to be finished... the work couldn't get finished until they paid the contractors to finally finish it all... so they needed to borrow some more cash.... sigh.... anyway, the final check came and it wasn't for much, but they gave it to me, and promised that they would give me their tax return.
I know that when you give money to family, you should consider it as a gift and not as a loan, but I am not exactly in a position to give away that much money (it is my emergency fund and I am a single parent of three kids that I need to provide for.) So, unfortunately, I need that money back.
Anyway, tax season comes around.... they are expecting a $4000 return. Turns out they OWE $1500, because my mom got Obama-Care insurance and took a premium discount that she didn't actually qualify for.... and, of course, they don't have the money to pay the taxes.... and need to borrow the cash.
I insisted that they disclose all of their finances to me (I am out $6500 now... I am tapped out and I wanted to see if there was an ETA for getting the money back). They did so begrudgingly.
Ok, here is the depressing part.
They owe
$130,000 on their house (not bad, but not great)
$14,000 in credit card debt (making minimum payments)
$23,000 on a HELOC (they are making interest only payments)
No car payments (wooohooo!)
$38,000 per year income.
When it is all said and done, they are short almost $700 per month. I can only figure out how to squeeze them down by about another $300 per month (cut cable, get rid of a car...etc etc.) And all of that short fall either goes onto a credit card or onto the HELOC. They got the HELOC to consolidate their credit card debt 2 years ago and it was only $14000 then.
Anyway. I am trying to show them there is a better way to live. They are depressed, they are angry with each other, and at this rate, they will be bankrupt and homeless in a very short time. My mom seems to think that everything will be fine once my dad can get his social security. He is 57. He works a hard job as a laborer and has no education. My mom watches my kids so I can work and I pay her for it. She is an artist and hasn't had a job since I was a kid.
I work hard and I save a lot of my income, but I don't make a ton of money either. I am putting myself through school and am doing my best to avoid incurring debt in the process. Their situation is dragging my household down along with it, since, even though I cut them off and will never offer cash again, they have so much already with no hopes of repayment. I am making them apply for welfare, which is a sever pride shock for them. I made them a budget and I intend to sit with them every week and pay their bills and work on their weekly spending allowance... I am an only child and I feel that taking care of my parents is mandatory, but taking care of my kids and household is MORE important... I feel incredibly guilty saving money for my future......
-
Wow, that is a lot for any adult child to deal with. I can commiserate with you somewhat, having to contribute to my mother's financial wellbeing lately. It sucks any way you look at it.
~Can your mother find a part time job on evening/weekends? As long as she is physically capable, she should be looking at all means of bringing in extra income.
~Do they have any assets they can sell?
-
Move to a less expensive house? Theirs has a new roof...
-
Not really any advice to offer here, but when I first read your topics title I thought it meant that you had to move back in with your parents.
-
I might have missed it, but whats their financial situation re: their house? You posted that they owe $130,000, what is the house worth?
It might be worth them downsizing, settle up their mortgage and as much of their debt if possible, and then rent a modest 2 bedroom apartment or something. Their income is low but from a cash flow perspective they might come out ahead, no property taxes to worry about, no major maintenance, less stuff to do around the house so maybe it will allow mom to pick up a part time gig she can work around your kids.
My parents currently have way too much mortgage remaining on too much house, and are in their mid 60s. Selling their house and downsizing would set them up to live like kings with no debt even as average consumer sukkas (who like to gamble too!).
So I understand firsthand that you may end up dealing with significant pushback from them to the idea of downsizing, even if it makes financial sense.
-
What is the timeline for all your kids getting in full day school?
Your mom obviously needs to continue bringing in income. More, if possible. Otherwise they need to majorly downsize housing costs.
Do they have a bedroom they could rent out in their house?
-
~Can your mother find a part time job on evening/weekends? As long as she is physically capable, she should be looking at all means of bringing in extra income.
~Do they have any assets they can sell?
I am trying hard to make a list of options for her to make extra income. I have about 10 options so far. She is depressed and extremely negative (not sure which is cause and which is effect...) but I want to have a list that she can "choose" from.. I am going there on Sunday to try to re-situate them as much as possible... I am hoping to get her to see it as choosing her best option...
-
Could your mother watch a couple of additional kids with yours to bring in some cash? She would probably need to get a license depending on your area but it might be enough to bridge the cash gap each month.
-
At some point they will lose the house and/or go bankrupt. Would it be better to sell now & see if they qualify for low income housing?
-
I might have missed it, but whats their financial situation re: their house? You posted that they owe $130,000, what is the house worth?
.....
So I understand firsthand that you may end up dealing with significant pushback from them to the idea of downsizing, even if it makes financial sense.
My best guess for their house worth would probably be $300,000, give or take $20,000... It is a small 2 bedroom in a nice older neighborhood. They have a pool, which provides summer entertainment for my kids and saves me on summer camp costs... I talked to them about downsizing last year, or combining households, but it was like running into a brick wall. I will bring it up again with them on Sunday.
-
Ideas, some may be possible, some not:
+Sell the house if they're not upside down
+You move in with them if they have space, and pay them rent (and either rent your house or sell it if you own)
+Mom takes in more daycare kids
+They take on a boarder
+Mom gets a job on weekends/nights. As a teller, cashier, shit-shoveler, whatever. $10 at a time.
And if they say no to all this, sadly, bankruptcy. Which means that you will not get paid, and a good chance they lose the house as well.
-
I might have missed it, but whats their financial situation re: their house? You posted that they owe $130,000, what is the house worth?
.....
So I understand firsthand that you may end up dealing with significant pushback from them to the idea of downsizing, even if it makes financial sense.
My best guess for their house worth would probably be $300,000, give or take $20,000... It is a small 2 bedroom in a nice older neighborhood. They have a pool, which provides summer entertainment for my kids and saves me on summer camp costs... I talked to them about downsizing last year, or combining households, but it was like running into a brick wall. I will bring it up again with them on Sunday.
Good Gravy. Sell the house, collect $150,000, pay off HELOC and Credit Card and you, rent for a year while saving up more for the next house.
-
What is the timeline for all your kids getting in full day school?
Your mom obviously needs to continue bringing in income. More, if possible. Otherwise they need to majorly downsize housing costs.
Do they have a bedroom they could rent out in their house?
Renting one bedroom or the basement is on my list of options for them. My youngest is going to kindergarten next year, so they will all be in full day school.
-
They need to cut spending by the $400/mo in cuts you identified.
On top of that they need to either increase income or further cut spending by another $300/mo, and that's just to break even.
If they're ever to pay you and their other creditors back, they'll need to do more. I don't think renting out their basement or a room will cut it.
You shouldn't feel guilty about saving. Your obligation to them could be met by sheltering them and providing food, like the old days. Maybe cohabitating is a good solution for all.
-
My parents live with me (not for financial reasons). From my reading of your posts, I don't see cohabiting as a great option; if they are not capable of making financial choices on their own, and you feel they are taking your household down with them now, I don't see how that would change. (Behaviour / choices might trump cash flow wins.)
That's not even touching on all the emotional issues that could arise (on your part or theirs). Which are real (though to some extent unknown in advance), even when you are the one making the offer to assist.
Just my 2c.
Yes, the idea of trying to live under one house is terrifying for me... haha! Neither of our existing homes would really fit us all anyway. They have a couple of things they can sell, so that will be a part of my "choices" conversation on Sunday...
I am going to do my best to force a change, but I know I can't make them. If I can get my dad on board with a big change, then my mom will have one less excuse... my mom says my dad NEEDS x,y, and z... my dad says my mom NEED a, b, and c..... so I am making us all sit in the same room and figure out what they really NEED... I have no idea how much longer my dad's body is going to hold up for this kind of physical labor.
I love this forum... it's like my own personal think-tank :)
-
They need to cut spending by the $400/mo in cuts you identified.
On top of that they need to either increase income or further cut spending by another $300/mo, and that's just to break even.
If they're ever to pay you and their other creditors back, they'll need to do more. I don't think renting out their basement or a room will cut it.
You shouldn't feel guilty about saving. Your obligation to them could be met by sheltering them and providing food, like the old days. Maybe cohabitating is a good solution for all.
I wish I could figure out how to remove the guilt. I think by forcing my "solutions" on to them and doing my best to re-set their ideas and how they run the house, maybe some of the guilt will be removed... if I have done everything I can to help them change their ways, at least I tried my best.
You are right, even if they rent a room, they will not be breaking even.. and my calculations don't even get out of the very basics, like food, shelter, debts, etc. If I start adding in other items they think they need... my dad ruins clothes at work, but my mom buys him new pants... I went to a second hand shop to show her he could have 5 pairs to ruin for under $20, and she just would rather not leave the house and order online..... very frustrating to watch and hard to keep the anger from boiling up.
-
It's so sad to watch the denial, knowing what will eventually happen as they refuse to believe reality. I went through this with one of my brothers after he became disabled. I "lent" him $10,000 that I know I'll never see again, & insisted that he tell me his finances. He was angry when I refused to give him any more. Although he could no longer drive, he & his partner refused to sell even 1 of their 2 cars, "just in case he could miraculously drive again". He had too much house with a ridiculous mortgage interest rate, but had already wrecked his credit, making it impossible to refinance. Then it needed repairs, so he didn't want to sell it at break-even, even though he was no longer able to cover the payments. He went on SNAP. Two years later, he & his partner declared bankruptcy & then lost the house. Had they jettisoned the house, car, & other spending much earlier, they wouldn't have horrible credit now & might even have some savings. My brother & his partner still try to sell some high priced MLM products that few people want & it's not enough to sustain them.
Renting out a room is like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Selling the house appears to solve their debt problems very nicely, & maybe they could find a neighborhood to rent an apartment where a car is much less important. Social security is too far away to save them.
-
I just wanted to say I'm so sorry you're going through this. I think you have a good plan and there are some good ideas being offered. I hope you're "choices" conversation goes well and if not, you need to look out for yourself and your kids first, don't feel guilty about that. Your kids are young and the need you, your parents are supposed to be adults and able to take care of themselves.
Good luck!
-
I have a MIL who is not in good financial shape. It's hard to watch her struggle when theoretically we could "help" more. However, I feel much more strongly about making sure I never put my own children in the dilemma of "Help mom? Or help myself?" I never, ever want my kids to have to worry about my finances. I want them to be able to live their lives and do their own thing and look after their own children. This line of thinking helps immensely with the guilt.
I think you're on the right path. Just be aware that at some point you will be "tapped out" of being able to offer advise and at that point you will have to let them live the life they have created for themselves and suffer the consequences.
-
Unfortunately, I see no outcome without some hard parts to it.
Are things like "you need to go on welfare" and "you're going to lose the house" not wake-up calls for them? Situations involving insolvent parents are very emotion-filled, with parental ego and feelings that they always know best, and children who refuse to let their parents fail, thus sacrificing their lives and finances looking after their parents.
Your duties to both your parents and your children are similar; to the best of your ability you will always provide:
- food,
- a place to sleep if they face homelessness,
- encouragement and emotional support.
Furthermore, you will be independent and not a burden to either your parents or kids.
I think you should do your absolute best to educate and convince your parents to take action and to suggest all viable options. Then, you are the back-up food-and-shelter. Trying to force anything will probably not work and just ruin the family relationships.
I would probably say a few things, like:
- you don't earn enough to cover your costs or repay loans
- you are borrowing to cover your costs
- once your lenders see you will never be able to repay, they will no longer lend to you and want their money back. That means they will go after the house.
There is a lot of pride associated with living in your own house, which may be a huge reason they don't want to sell. But if they may be forced out by creditors, it would be much less embarrassing to preemptively sell, tell their friends and neighbours they are cashing in/moving to a carefree condo lifestyle, and save face that way.
I'm sorry your family is going through this. I think you are a great (adult) kid, to do so much to help your parents. Hope this weekend goes well!
-
Is there any possibility of them refinancing the house? If they could bundle all of their debts into a new mortgage (including repaying you!) it might keep their monthly payments under control (although decreasing their long-term equity).
Of course, their income is so low, they might not qualify for a larger loan.
-
Of course, their income is so low, they might not qualify for a larger loan.
Exactly... I'm not sure how their credit score is survivng, but I know they are nearly or totally maxed cards and some bill juggling happening, meaning skipping paying things some months. Between that and their small income level I highly doubt they can refi... Still, it is an option that we can discuss, so thank you!
-
I'm sorry your family is going through this. I think you are a great (adult) kid, to do so much to help your parents. Hope this weekend goes well!
Thank you. I really want them to succeed.. I know there is no easy fix, and I feel like I have a good list of viable options that they need to look over. Its a really tough topic, but I feel like if I don't try to do something now, and really stand firm that they make changes now, it will cross the line into almost unfixable very soon.
I feel bad for them.. My mom just wants people to help them by lending money... My dad is a proud man, and he tried to ask his brother for a loan but couldn't get the words out and ended up just small talking and then hanging up.
If they make changes and can show a lot of progress, he can start feeling better about their position... Maybe if they get on track and moving in the right direction, he will be proud again.. His brother isn't close, but he's got money and could help them out, but at this point, my parents would basically be asking the brother to shovel cash into a burning building.... My $6500 already went up in smoke....
-
However, I feel much more strongly about making sure I never put my own children in the dilemma of "Help mom? Or help myself?" I never, ever want my kids to have to worry about my finances.
I know that mindset.... Most of the reason I save so much is so my kids wont ever have issues with worrying about supporting me....
My oldest is 16 and I think its a good lesson for her to see... She sees that they are so unhappy... She got a little job after school a couple days per week and saves her money and even opened a Roth, so maybe she will be able to retire early and enjoy life.
Its a good lesson for me too, since I've learned basically everything NOT to do by watching my parents :) I swear my moms ideas are so terrible sometimes, and she is so sure of herself.... I argued for a week with her about getting the HELOC.... It was a bad idea because it was just a patch and they didn't fix the spending/income that caused the credit card debt... She was sure that it was going to fix everything and she wouldn't listen. It's probably because I'm a kid in their eyes still. Im just hoping I see a chink in the armor this weekend and get them to see the light.
-
Your parents are fortunate to have such a responsible and caring child. I admire your commitment to do whatever you can to help them right their ship. And I hope your efforts impact their poor habits and decision-making. But I'm not very optimistic they will be willing to take your good advice. If they continue on the path they're on, it's not a pretty picture and, I'm sure, as an only child especially, being their financial woes worsen will cause you much stress and heartache. As you said, at least you'll feel reassured that you did everything you could.
I would write off the loan you gave them as a gift/loss. And unfortunately, from my own experience and other similar situations I've observed, when it comes to helping family financially more times than not the adage "no good deed goes unpunished" rings true. They will likely be angry if you won't loan them money anymore, but that's a boundary you need to hold firm I believe. Loaning them money you need to use for other vital purposes will just prolong the inevitable unless they change something drastically. So you wouldn't really be helping them at all and you'll surely grow to resent it.
Both my and my DH's parents are elderly and not in the best financial shape. We've helped my parents and I anticipate both sets needing help in the coming 5 years. Not looking forward to that at all. I wish you the best and commend your integrity.
-
Unfortunately I think the best thing would be for you to step back and stop making suggestions. Things are probably not going to get better, and definitely not at your suggestion. You may find that once they realize you are not going to bail them out, they will suddenly become resourceful.
And this is why we all pay into social security. It's an anti-poverty program for people like this.
-
Are you paying your mom market rate to watch your kids? If not, they're subsidizing you at their expense. Even if they want to do it, they can't afford it.
-
I have looked up market rate and I'm pretty close and likely over-paying her. If I payed a daycare for half a day ( my youngest is in half day pre-k) it would be $350 and for after school (2 hours for my son) I would be paying $250. I pay her $600 per month, but I also pay her when they have no school and I take time off of work to be with them (I pay her over the holiday breaks and during my vacations...) and half of the time she leaves the kids at my house after school with my teen daughter babysitting.... (A large part of the reason I had my teen set her work schedule to right after school, so my mom couldn't take advantage so much...) So I think I am actually overpaying her.
-
I'm so sorry you're dealing with this. My MIL just called -- last night! -- and asked my husband for a substantial "loan."
I hope this all works out for your family! Its so hard to say no sometimes :(
-
You have received some excellent advice already. I think you should have one or more conversations with your parents ASAP. However, you should realize that getting your parents to see reality more clearly is very difficult because of their egos and fixed ideas. Some people hate change.
If they have an issue with you (their child) giving advice, then you may want to offer to pay for a Personal Financial Adviser to meet with them. This would be the last ditch thing that you would try before you accept the fact that it is beyond your control. You have done everything that a good child should do for his/her parents.
-
I have looked up market rate and I'm pretty close and likely over-paying her. If I payed a daycare for half a day ( my youngest is in half day pre-k) it would be $350 and for after school (2 hours for my son) I would be paying $250. I pay her $600 per month, but I also pay her when they have no school and I take time off of work to be with them (I pay her over the holiday breaks and during my vacations...) and half of the time she leaves the kids at my house after school with my teen daughter babysitting.... (A large part of the reason I had my teen set her work schedule to right after school, so my mom couldn't take advantage so much...) So I think I am actually overpaying her.
Chances are excellent you would be paying a standard daycare for these vacation times times, too. You pay for a spot with most places. They have staff to pay whether or not you choose to have your kid there. Even the in home daycares around here operate that way.
-
You are doing your very best and I commend you for that.
Taking a gigantic step back, it makes no sense to me that an elderly couple making $38K a year (say $44-45K with what you are paying your mom right now, but you won't be paying her that next year) live in a $300K house that is not paid off. Between the first and second mortgages, the bank is the majority owner of this property. It would really be a stretch for them to qualify for a mortgage on a house in this price range if they were young and just starting out with a huge amount of time to pay down the mortgage.
So it's not a surprise that they can't cover all of their bills. The mortgage has become a trap that severely limits their options. The mortgage on this particular house probably has always been a trap but the closing trap claws are finally cutting into their flesh. "Predatory lending" and "slave to the mortgage" are phrases for a reason. The HELOC was just them falling deeper into the bank's snare, and you tried to warn them but they don't want to listen. Because they can't possibly pay off their debts on the home before retirement, and social security checks will be low particularly if they start to draw at 62, then they are in fact effectively renting from the bank while paying all of the maintenance, insurance, tax expenses with the illusion of home ownership. How long have they lived in this house?
I agree with other posters:
Unless your mom is willing to start working full time to keep them in the house while paying off other obligations (which doesn't seem likely from what you are describing), then they need to sell the house soon while they still can.
I honestly will be surprised if they will even consider that, though. Proud and stubborn often go together. Both traits can be huge positives in some situations and huge negatives in others.
Stop giving them money that you need to feed and educate your little ones. Unfortunately I don't think they will listen to your advice. I guess you can try this one last time, but after that probably best to keep the lips zipped and the purse firmly closed.
-
Paradoxically, the more you "help" your parents with daycare & "loan" payments, the less they will be inclined to help themselves.
I agree that the only real choice they have is the timing of selling their house. Do it now, & they have the opportunity to be debt free with far lower expenses & head held high. Do it much later, & they will be ruined financially & emotionally.
They need to absolutely understand that you will not sacrifice their grandchildren to save them.
-
The phrase I had to use on my family member was "...you can't go North until you stop going South".
-
I feel for you! I am having a hard time with my parent's also. My mom is bound and determined to spend every last dime she has on fixing up her house when it doesn't need fixing. My dad has dementia and she wants to spend the money before they take it away if he has to go into a nursing home.
She will not talk to me about finances and tells me that if my dad dies, she will not be able to afford to live in their house. I told her that her house is the cheapest place she could possibly live and she should be saving her money to insure she could stay there if my dad were to die first. I also told her to spend her money on having someone come in to watch my dad for a few hours so she can get out and do stuff. She did not appear to listen to me, but then she told my daughter that she was doing that like it was her own idea! Parents!
They live 3 hours away and my mom will not move from there as she has her friends. Honestly, I don't know what she expects to happen and she will not plan for the future. I have gone out of my way to make sure she has had vacations with us at my expense, but she forgets about all that and fights with me about her finances. She brings up the fact that she took care of my grandma, but that is not true as we lived in my grandma's house and my grandma did all the cooking and my mom went back to work. My grandma only needed taking care of for the last 6 months of her life and then she died. We all lived with her for 14 years! Selective memory I guess!
The bad part is that we always had a great relationship until the last few years. Now all we seem to do is fight.
I just can't see it getting any better.
Sorry to vent on your thread, but I am very troubled by all of this. I wish you the best of luck! Dealing with parents finances can by a nightmare.
Miss Prim
-
...promised that they would give me their tax return.
.... they are expecting a $4000 return. Turns out they OWE $1500, because my mom got Obama-Care insurance and took a premium discount that she didn't actually qualify for....
...$38,000 per year income.
The above doesn't make sense to me. $38k is less than the obamacare cliff so she should qualify for subsidy. Even if it turned out she didn't, there is a limit on how much of the premium discount they can make you pay back and it is way less than $5500 at that income level. I would recommend taking a look at their tax return and comparing it to the prior year. It's possible it was prepared incorrectly or worse that they aren't being honest with you.
Also, they need to look up exactly how much social security income they qualify for.
-
I sat down with them for two hours this morning. You are all probably right, nothing is going to change. My mom just kept telling me that she already knows how to fix it all, and my dad is stubborn and resistant to change. I did my best.
I gave them four alternate budget options with different sets of changes they could make... I set them up with weekly spending envelopes. I painted a picture of how things will look down the road if they don't pull a 180 right now.
I felt like I was talking to a pair of teenagers the whole time :( especially when I told my mom to shread the credit cards. She grinned. And then I told her to remove the numbers from amazon, too, then she frowned... And they I told her I'd look at her statement every month and she looked angry.... So, she has no real intentions of stopping.
I used a lot of suggestions from you all and THANK YOU for helping me hash through it before I brought it to them! I did tell them that I am out of cash and any future income will be for my and my kids education, so there will be no more help from me. I told them if they don't change and end up losing the house, they can sleep on my couch and I will feed them and they would never be homeless.... They seemed genuinely thankful for that.
They are adults. I don't have the time or the energy to do more for them. I put a lot of time and effort into the budgets and lists and suggestions and I left it all with them in a little packet. Now I try my hardest to look the other way and accept the choices they make.
-
The phrase I had to use on my family member was "...you can't go North until you stop going South".
FYI, I stole and used these exact words :) thanks!!!!
-
@ olderone: I looked at their tax return. I think that they set it up to have a lot per month (and didn't pay enough taxes) AND said they would make less than they did (making them qualify for less of a subsidy for health insurance). It looks to be correct, and perhaps they knew they weren't getting a return and lied to me to let me think they'd pay me back soon, but I prefer to think that they just didn't understand and really thought there would be money. Either way, all water under the bridge now. Thanks for suggesting I take a look!
-
Honestly, I don't know what she expects to happen and she will not plan for the future.
Yes... This is exactly the problem. My folks won't step back and look at the whole picture. Every choice they make is to put out the little fires that come up, but they never acknowledge the the whole building is burning... My parents are 57.... They likely and hopefully have another 35-40 years in them... I just don't want to see them miserable that whole time... Or living on my couch for any of them.... Good luck to you!
-
This is so sad. My brother was also completely opposed to any change, but of course it came anyway. I'm sure he would have loved to move in with us -- no way. You've done what you can, & perhaps they will think about it.
-
Nyxst, my heart goes out to you. You've done your best. If they spend themselves into the poorhouse hopefully whatever social safety net that exists will keep them housed and fed.
Here's where some good may come of this situation: when your teenaged daughter asks, do not conceal the truth of your parents' financial situation. Let her know they are loving, caring people but they have overspent, borrowed, failed to plan, and exercised insufficient discipline to have healthy finances. She'll see how much it sucks to be broke and approaching retirement. Sometimes an example can be a powerful teaching tool.
It sounds like you can ill afford to lose the money you lent them. I hope you can recoup some and that no emergencies come up.
-
Glad to read you tried today.
Now just hold fast to your resolve to not give them any more money.
-
Sometimes an example can be a powerful teaching tool.
.....
It sounds like you can ill afford to lose the money you lent them.
Yes, I am using this as a tool definately! My teen has a good head on her shoulders, but is extreamly artistic and sees similarities between my mom and herself. She started saving for retirement already :'-) and I've told her before if she starts early, she will find herself in a position where she can do ANYTHING SHE WANTS with her time, because she won't be a slave to a job. She will learn from this.
My son is 9, but he is a math kid... Wants to be an aerospace engineer (or a baseball player... :) love it!) And he loves to check his savings account every month... He is jealous that his sisters is going up steadily while his is relatively stagnant, and he is always looking for ways to make a buck.
My youngest is 5 and the jury is still out on her :) probably a future paleontologist, judging from the holes I need to fill in in my yard all the time :) she lectured my mom for using her credit card yesterday at the pharmacy.
I believe the truth is crutial and good things dont happen if you arent living rooted in truth... my kids will be fine! My parents.... Not so much.
I will build the emergency fund back up. Not too worried about that! Slow and steady...
-
You have done all that you can. You should really good about that!
Some people won't change until they hit rock bottom. Maybe that won't happen until they are evicted from their house.
No matter what happens, you must refuse to give them any more money. Giving them more money is like giving a crack addict more crack - it hurts more than it helps.
-
The number one thing that you have to do is cut them off from any more "loans" from you. You are done with giving money because.. you can't afford to give them anything, you are tapped out.
They have to figure it out from here.
Dave Ramsey gives awesome, advice for people in screwed up financial situations. See if they will listen to his podcast or call in to his show.
Your parents need some hope. They also need to make a budget and see what they are dealing with.
You need a little space and some boundaries.
-
We actually just had the oddest will / estate meeting with my in-laws. They went over the will but did not share at all what assets they have available. We only know they have something.
Parents are weird. Hang in there!
-
Not sure if anyone has mentioned it prior to Kbecks, but Ramsey sounds like it may be your best bet.
-
Thank you! I will look at it. My mom is very anti-religious and from what I've seen of Ramsey, he has religious undertones at the very least... My dad, on the other hand is very religious, so maybe it could get through to him... Thanks!
-
I sat down with them for two hours this morning. You are all probably right, nothing is going to change. My mom just kept telling me that she already knows how to fix it all, and my dad is stubborn and resistant to change. I did my best.
I gave them four alternate budget options with different sets of changes they could make... I set them up with weekly spending envelopes. I painted a picture of how things will look down the road if they don't pull a 180 right now.
I felt like I was talking to a pair of teenagers the whole time :( especially when I told my mom to shread the credit cards. She grinned. And then I told her to remove the numbers from amazon, too, then she frowned... And they I told her I'd look at her statement every month and she looked angry.... So, she has no real intentions of stopping.
I used a lot of suggestions from you all and THANK YOU for helping me hash through it before I brought it to them! I did tell them that I am out of cash and any future income will be for my and my kids education, so there will be no more help from me. I told them if they don't change and end up losing the house, they can sleep on my couch and I will feed them and they would never be homeless.... They seemed genuinely thankful for that.
They are adults. I don't have the time or the energy to do more for them. I put a lot of time and effort into the budgets and lists and suggestions and I left it all with them in a little packet. Now I try my hardest to look the other way and accept the choices they make.
How old are your parents?
Because I have seen this exact kind of action from many people when they get older. Usually not until the 70's or 80's, but sometimes earlier. It's the "FU I'm old, I can do what I want." And it is like having teenagers again. I saw the frustration in my in-laws when my FIL's parents hit that point. They were trying to help them with their finances but the grandparents were resistant.
(Grandparents had savings, but didn't want to spend them. They expected my in-laws to clean their house and mow their lawn, etc. My in laws bought the house for them to rent, and said "pay a local kid $20 to mow the lawn." That's an example.)
In any event, you have to stop loaning them money. As long as they have an "out" they won't make difficult choices.
-
They are only 57..... If they were in their 80's, I'd be more understanding of their behavior :)
-
To the OP:
I don't have any wisdom to add, but just wanted to say my heart goes out to you.
Do you have good coping strategies for yourself? Your writing sounds measured and gentle. I hope you're not keeping too much inside. Please take care of yourself.
-
To the OP:
I don't have any wisdom to add, but just wanted to say my heart goes out to you.
Do you have good coping strategies for yourself? Your writing sounds measured and gentle. I hope you're not keeping too much inside. Please take care of yourself.
Thanks for your concern :) I try to keep a level head. I have taken some stress management courses and I try to use the things that I have learned to keep stress levels as low as possible. I have found that, once I have exhausted the issue and decide there is nothing else I can do, I feel better. I am sure that less stress would be better for my future health. I am rather healthy for now... no high blood pressure or other issues... i could stand to lose a few pound, but chocolate cake is my friend :) :) Between my kids and my parents, I am DEFINITELY looking forward to moving into a 7x5 cabin by a lake alone in about 10 years... or a house on the side of a mountain that no one can get to... I just need to get through a few more years!
-
I would second the Dave Ramsey recommendation. There has been debate on this site over making people pay $100/family unit for the materials for the classes; paying down debt based on oustanding balance, not interest rate; no credit cards; etc. And I generally agree with the critiques, but at the end of the day, it's a very psychologically coercive (in a good way) program, especially for folks without much financial literacy and/or who are in debt. It's a good mix of vision casting and specific incremental steps that, when completed, build buy-in to the overall program, followed by more vision casting and incremental steps. The Christian component isn't super strong or off-putting.
If you can get them to the first class of the series of classes (which is always free; locations/times are posted on their website), that would be the first step.
-
I told them if they don't change and end up losing the house, they can sleep on my couch and I will feed them and they would never be homeless.... They seemed genuinely thankful for that.
I would be very, very careful with that statement. In fact, I would retract it next time I saw them. You've just let them know that the worst that can happen is that they'll live at your house. I bet your house is pretty nice and you cook a decent meal. Since your parents are only 57 they likely have decades and decades to look forward to. You do not want them to spend those decades on your couch.
We've walked a similar fine line with MIL. She already lives in our basement suite, but we have been very upfront with her that this is where it ends. If she spends all her money on the Home Shopping Channel and has nothing left for food, we will not feed her. This gives her the incentive to not spend everything at the Home Shopping Channel and save a bit for groceries. If the shit really hit the fan, then I would feed her. However, knowing her personality if I said this to her face, she would very quickly be on the TrMama meal plan.
-
I told them if they don't change and end up losing the house, they can sleep on my couch and I will feed them and they would never be homeless.... They seemed genuinely thankful for that.
I would be very, very careful with that statement. In fact, I would retract it next time I saw them. You've just let them know that the worst that can happen is that they'll live at your house. I bet your house is pretty nice and you cook a decent meal. Since your parents are only 57 they likely have decades and decades to look forward to. You do not want them to spend those decades on your couch.
We've walked a similar fine line with MIL. She already lives in our basement suite, but we have been very upfront with her that this is where it ends. If she spends all her money on the Home Shopping Channel and has nothing left for food, we will not feed her. This gives her the incentive to not spend everything at the Home Shopping Channel and save a bit for groceries. If the shit really hit the fan, then I would feed her. However, knowing her personality if I said this to her face, she would very quickly be on the TrMama meal plan.
It sounds like OP's parents are pretty heavily into their pride, though. At least that's what I got from their reactions to the suggestion to sell their house, applying for welfare, and asking the brother for money.
There's lots of steps between now and her parents moving in. Downsizing to a condo, renting an apartment, subsidized housing. And the grandparents-on-the-couch thing is like adult kids moving home: temporary. If it happens you can insist on contributions to grocery and utility expenses, action plans for them to be out on their own again, and that progress be made periodically. I can't imagine any parents loving the "my house, my rules" scenario when it's not them making the rules.
(TrMama - you're a good woman to take in your MIL. In her case it does sound like you almost have to treat her like a child.)
-
Yes, my parents are very unlikely to ever WANT to live with me... My kids add a level of chaos that my parents don't want to deal with all the time...
And while I do cook yummy meals, my dad already joins us for most of them...
My mom and I don't get along and we have accepted that through the years. I moved out at 17, so we never "learned" to deal with each other as adults. We have about an hour together before we start making each other uncomfortable and grumpy, that's when we part ways to avoid disaster.
Things change over time and we are a close family, but I don't think living on my couch would ever be an option they would consider.
-
Seeing some changes being made...
They checked out their insurance bill and changed to a different company that will save them $700.00 per year...
They are looking at getting a prepaid cell phone for my mom and having my dad get a free one for work (ending their Verizon-induced bleeding)...
I'm hearing whispers about side hustles my mom is getting going...
I know it's no where even close to a 180 a this point, and I can hear a whole lot of "well, duh...." from us mustachion-level savers, but maybe as they see the savings from these changes, it will encourage them to make more? I have my fingers crossed!
-
That is great news! I have to say, 57 is not too old to change. Perhaps your suggestions did sink in a bit and help motivate them. Hope they keep it up!
-
may be an option?
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread1048719/pg1
-
Seeing some changes being made...
They checked out their insurance bill and changed to a different company that will save them $700.00 per year...
They are looking at getting a prepaid cell phone for my mom and having my dad get a free one for work (ending their Verizon-induced bleeding)...
I'm hearing whispers about side hustles my mom is getting going...
I know it's no where even close to a 180 a this point, and I can hear a whole lot of "well, duh...." from us mustachion-level savers, but maybe as they see the savings from these changes, it will encourage them to make more? I have my fingers crossed!
This is a great start!!! How much do they have to reduce spending to balance their budget?
P.S. BTW, I'm 55, FIRED, and a parent. Fortunately, I had depression-era parents that drilled the "live below your means" lesson into my head from a young age. My father retired at 58 and was a millionaire. I beat my father and retired at 52. I drilled the same lesson into my two adult sons, which they seem to have embraced. Anyway, old farts like me can still change.
-
This is a great start!!! How much do they have to reduce spending to balance their budget?
P.S. BTW, I'm 55, FIRED, and a parent. Fortunately, I had depression-era parents that drilled the "live below your means" lesson into my head from a young age. My father retired at 58 and was a millionaire. I beat my father and retired at 52. I drilled the same lesson into my two adult sons, which they seem to have embraced. Anyway, old farts like me can still change.
They have a lot of work to do still... but it is definitely a start! Since they are making interest only payments on their HELOC, and I did their budget using those numbers, and even then they were around $600 short per month. So they are finding expenses to cut, and that's great, but not enough to fix the problem, just slow it down some.
Its a shame, because my parents were always semi-good examples when I was young. They saved a 20% down payment for a house. They paid cash for everything when I was young. They taught me to appreciate all of the free things in life :) It has been over the last decade or so that they have lost their grip.
My mom is getting a little bit concerning to me as she gets older. Alzheimers runs in my family and sometimes the things she does makes me tilt my head a little and wonder if I should really be stepping in a lot faster instead of assuming they are just short on money... My dad had a stroke about 5 years ago and has been able to fully recover but still is a bit "off" and that is concerning.
Anyway, at least the conversation has been started, and they haven't completely ignored me, and seem a little proud with each cut they make.
-
It shows a willingness to change :-) This is good! As you said, not nearly enough but it should be some hope for more change being possible.
-
P.S. BTW, I'm 55, FIRED, and a parent.
rjack - I really hope to get there myself some day :) I am working hard towards my end goal and I try so hard to keep the motivation going. I think my household is running at about 80% efficiency right now. Mostly because of the time/convenience factors that come up often in a single parent household. Still, I am saving a good chunk of my income, so hopefully I can relax later! It is a hard line to walk, since I want to make sure my kids don't miss out on being kids and having experiences, so I pull out the savings vs. life experience scale almost every day/week. Right now its baseball season and looking for hand me down bats/gloves is my current mission :)
-
You comment about the dementia concerns... I have some experience here, dealing with the beginning stages in my family. :(
One thing that's fairly common in dementia patients is that they can't stop. Stop eating, stop spending things, etc and they don't even realize it. To the point that you have to lock food cupboards because they'll get a snack and eat the whole package. If you're concerned, don't ignore it. There are tons of resources out there for information and advice, support groups, etc.
Also, if dementia is suspected (or just in general really), make a push to get legal docs in place and make sure they're up-to-date. Wills, power of attorney, etc. An elder care expert could be very helpful.
-
Oh, my parents...
It seems that small changes have been made, but bigger walls have been put up, shelling my mom off from the world a little more. I suppose there isn't much I can do about it.
It is baseball season and my son and daughter are both on their respective little league teams. Between working full time, school, and being the "taxi" and "head cheerleader" for my kids, I end up with significantly less time to care for the little things that I feel are less important (i.e. the laundry pile had doubled in size, the dishes fall a half day behind, I neglected running the vacuum yesterday, etc. etc.). Anyway, my mom likes to ridicule my home at every chance normally, but my busy schedule opens me up to EXTRA EXTREME ridicule and critique, which I generally just roll my eyes and sigh and move on with my life. The other day, though, she stated that she wished that I made enough money to afford a maid, since I obviously couldn't maintain my household, and that the pizza box in the trash can out front was an obvious sign that I don't even know how to feed my family. So, I snapped a bit. I told her that she isn't welcome in my home if she can't stop her critiques. I have a billion things I wanted to say, like "I domake enough money to afford a maid, but I gave it all to you..."; like "There are things I find more important than laundry, like having a caring and supportive relationship with my children..."... my "I should have said" list goes on and on, but I felt that I had said what was sufficient to stop the negative comments and I let it go. Anyway, now she won't talk to me at all (2 weeks). Oh well. No matter what, she is never satisfied. I'm glad they know that I won't give them $ and I'm glad she knows I won't accept ridicule and negativity, but this is going to be a LONG life if peace can't be made :(
Sorry, just venting.
-
Do you feel like having a relationship with your parents is necessary for your own happiness? Could you just cut them out completely?
It sounds to me like they make you miserable. That's a high price to pay for a relationship, given that you only live once (as far as I know).
My dad is wonderful and caring and helpful. But my mom is just miserable. I wish I could help her. I don't think I could completely disconnect from them :(
-
Think of it this way. Your kids push and push and push until they hit a limit, and you lose it and they learn where that line is and don't go there again (for a while at least). They get over it, and after you've calmed down you feel horrible. Am I right?
Your mom did the same and found out where the limit was, but since she isn't used to getting push back like that, she's really angry right now. It's the same process, just taking longer. You can reach out and make peace, but she'll also remember that lesson (applying it is a little different).
Next time, just do what I do when people complain about how dirty my car is - "feel free to wash it for me!" Either they shut up, or I get a clean car. :) She doesn't like the laundry pile - she can do a load of laundry.
-
Family is family and disconnecting is appropriate in certain situations but from parents or kids? Much tougher and it messes with our sense of ourselves as responsible, respectable people.
Medical intervention may be indicated if you suspect incipient dementia/Alzheimers. Please get them to a doctor for evaluation. Some medications can be very helpful & just knowing what's going on can ease the upset for everyone. We don't blame people who get cancer for getting cancer; ditto for age-related failure. But knowing what's going on explains why we have to do x-y-z for them from now on.
Good luck
K
-
Is there any person in their life from whom they would take the advice about selling the house? You said your mom is anti-religious, so perhaps not a pastor. But is there anyone in any community they belong to who seems like a trusted person, who could help? Or would they be willing to see a financial counselor of some sort?
Maybe if they hear the advice coming from someone other than their child, they might see the light. The messenger is often as important as the message.
Good luck. My heart goes out to you. Virtual hug.
-
They owe
$130,000 on their house (not bad, but not great)
$14,000 in credit card debt (making minimum payments)
$23,000 on a HELOC (they are making interest only payments)
No car payments (wooohooo!)
$38,000 per year income.
When it is all said and done, they are short almost $700 per month. I can only figure out how to squeeze them down by about another $300 per month (cut cable, get rid of a car...etc etc.) And all of that short fall either goes onto a credit card or onto the HELOC. They got the HELOC to consolidate their credit card debt 2 years ago and it was only $14000 then.
So, they got a HELOC to consolidate their $14,000 of credit card debt and then went out and got another $14,000 of credit card debt!
You can't make people change. If a person wants to change, you can help them with the technical aspects, but the desire for change has to come from them. From what you're describing, they would rather jump from crisis to crisis than actually change what they're doing.
Of course, this doesn't solve your problem. You care about them and want to make sure that they don't end up on the street, no matter what foolish decisions they make. You also want to make sure that they don't take you down with them.
I recommend that you help them isolate assets and income streams that will survive bankruptcy. I don't know what state your parents are in, but many states will allow a house to survive bankruptcy. Ditto social security and pension payments. 401ks and IRAs will also survive bankruptcy.
Can you sell the house, pay off the HELOC and buy a smaller house? If so, put the new, smaller house in the name of a trust or find some other way to keep them from taking out a loan against it. You absolutely need to keep them from securing a loan with their residence or the same scenario will play out again.
If they have a paid off house, social security and medicare/medicaid will keep them in decent shape. They will continue to spend and run up bills until the bankruptcy, but thats beyond your control.
-
Is there any person in their life from whom they would take the advice about selling the house? You said your mom is anti-religious, so perhaps not a pastor. But is there anyone in any community they belong to who seems like a trusted person, who could help? Or would they be willing to see a financial counselor of some sort?
Maybe if they hear the advice coming from someone other than their child, they might see the light. The messenger is often as important as the message.
Good luck. My heart goes out to you. Virtual hug.
Thanks! My mom is really hard to get through to. She shuts down almost immediately, and not just with me, but with everyone I think :( My dad is receptive to suggestions, but relys on my mom to implement them, so that's no help. These last few days have been so peaceful without her talking to me, but it bothers me that it always has to be so difficult with them..
-
I feel incredibly guilty saving money for my future......
My 2 cents: Don't feel guilty about this.
Through the cold eyes of a project manager, it looks like you need to prioritize your resources on one of your projects (Project 1: helping your parents financially, project 2: helping you + your kidsfinancially) if you don't want both projects to fail. You can split your resources to help both your parents and your household, and end up in a situation where both fail. OR, you can be clear with your parents that you will not help them financially anymore (independently of the "you can sleep on the couch" offer), to guarantee a good financial future for you and your kids.
That's the "heart of stone" answer obviously. I'd be torn as well if it were my parents.
Here's another option:
clearly you do better with money than they do. So every 1$ that you pay yourself will be worth much more in 10 years than every 1$ you give them. It would make much more financial sense to help yourself/your kids first, reach a comfortable amount of financial security, and *then* help your parents.
In other words, and to make it a very stupid example:
Give them 1$ today, it will be gone tomorrow
Give yourself 1$ today, it will be worth 2$ in 10 years. At that point you can give them the extra dollar, everyone's better off.
This means that they can still live "paycheck to paycheck" for the next 10 years or so, until YOU are in a situation that's ok enough to actually help them financially without jeopardizing your own family.
Does that make sense?
-
I feel incredibly guilty saving money for my future......
My 2 cents: Don't feel guilty about this.
Give them 1$ today, it will be gone tomorrow
Give yourself 1$ today, it will be worth 2$ in 10 years. At that point you can give them the extra dollar, everyone's better off.
This means that they can still live "paycheck to paycheck" for the next 10 years or so, until YOU are in a situation that's ok enough to actually help them financially without jeopardizing your own family.
Does that make sense?
Makes a lot if sense!
I think if I allow myself to focus on my own house exclusively, then I will easily double the money and be in a better position to help in the future.
I think that they will ACTUALLY need help in the future as they age more, while right now they have self made emergencies all the time, but their today problems won't kill them, they may just lose things they love (like their house that the refuse to even condsider budging from).
I need to release myself from the guilt and bank the cash...
-
They owe
$130,000 on their house (not bad, but not great)
$14,000 in credit card debt (making minimum payments)
$23,000 on a HELOC (they are making interest only payments)
No car payments (wooohooo!)
$38,000 per year income.
When it is all said and done, they are short almost $700 per month. I can only figure out how to squeeze them down by about another $300 per month (cut cable, get rid of a car...etc etc.) And all of that short fall either goes onto a credit card or onto the HELOC. They got the HELOC to consolidate their credit card debt 2 years ago and it was only $14000 then.
So, they got a HELOC to consolidate their $14,000 of credit card debt and then went out and got another $14,000 of credit card debt!
You can't make people change. If a person wants to change, you can help them with the technical aspects, but the desire for change has to come from them. From what you're describing, they would rather jump from crisis to crisis than actually change what they're doing.
Of course, this doesn't solve your problem. You care about them and want to make sure that they don't end up on the street, no matter what foolish decisions they make. You also want to make sure that they don't take you down with them.
I recommend that you help them isolate assets and income streams that will survive bankruptcy. I don't know what state your parents are in, but many states will allow a house to survive bankruptcy. Ditto social security and pension payments. 401ks and IRAs will also survive bankruptcy.
Can you sell the house, pay off the HELOC and buy a smaller house? If so, put the new, smaller house in the name of a trust or find some other way to keep them from taking out a loan against it. You absolutely need to keep them from securing a loan with their residence or the same scenario will play out again.
If they have a paid off house, social security and medicare/medicaid will keep them in decent shape. They will continue to spend and run up bills until the bankruptcy, but thats beyond your control.
I think I have to wait for them to fall over the bankruptcy cliff before they will even acknowledge that they are really headed in that direction... They will ask for help from everyone before they get there, and I think once every puts their foot down ,it will naturally crash and burn :(
-
Have you tried listening to Dave Ramsey even for yourself? As mentioned earlier, his style of advise would help all parties involved as it is more than just budgets - he's got great advise on boundaries and the family dynamic.
At some point either you or your parents will have an epiphany about the situation, and hopefully that person is you. The relationship described in this thread reads as toxic at best.
Good luck finding clarity.
-
Your situation is almost like mine. The only difference is I don't have kids, but that fact hardly mathers in this situation. My parents (especially my dad) is very stubborn and they never have and never will change their ways and since I am their only son, who do you think they go after when they need money. At least, it's not on a regular basis, but I just wish they would listen to my advice. They always tell me that they are so much in a deep hole, that there is no way of getting out of it, so when I suggest them to cut to cut cable or even a silly think like the phone line, they got angry at me, because they feel life would be boring and there's no way they can do that.
On YNAB, I even have a category called "Incase my parents ask me for money".
-
Sometimes you do just have to let people fail. It sounds like your parents are going to fail and you have to let them as painful as it will be for you. People can learn from failure in a way that nothing else will teach them.
My brother once had a failing business and asked everyone to help him at the end. I said no, with some pangs of guilt. But that business needed to fail so he could do something else with his time and energy for awhile, and he learned from it.
Oh, and you have my sympathy on snapping about the housework comments. I'm kind of messy myself, and I just don't have the vacuuming gene, so I take "gee your house is messy" comments with a grain of salt. They got old from one person and I eventually told her quite directly that she had to knock it off or she wasn't welcome to visit anymore. But if anyone came into my house and made comments about me not feeding my kids properly, then I would show them to the door immediately and tell them why they were being told to leave.
Housework comments from one woman to another are usually an "I'm better than you" statement. It's probably the only area where she feels she can outdo you, but of course she doesn't work outside the home so it's an irrelevant comparison. Nonetheless, that doesn't mean you need to put up with her rudeness.
-
Do you know what their social security income will be? If they only have to hold on for five more years (both taking social security at 62), would that help? If they sold the house in the next couple of years and moved into an apartment, cleared their debt and started taking SS at 62, what would those next few decades look like for them?
-
It sounds like your mother has a poor grasp of reality if she derives her primary income from you (getting at/above-market pay for childcare), but still dishes out criticism like that. I'd be super pissed, too.
I empathize that it weighs on you that your relationship with your parents is never smooth or easy. I recommend you accept that they and your relationship may never change. You can keep trying, but if things don't get better you haven't counted on any improvement and won't be disappointed if it doesn't happen. A more distant and infrequent relationship might make you happier. You'll still have contact but you'll both have more freedom from each other's judgment/criticism/involvement (while you are trying to help your mother's refusal to implement your suggestions for savings could mean she feels your particular advice or involvement is unwelcome. Not rational but perhaps true anyway.)
-
Do not let them drag you over the cliff too.
-
Are you an only child? Also, what are your parents plans once you no longer require daycare? Do they realize that their monthly income will decrease further, or do they expect you to continue to subsidize them? Maybe when your youngest is in school all day you could use a different provider for afterschool care. This would free up her day so that she could take on a different job. (I realize that she will not like this idea, but it may help you.)
-
Are you an only child? Also, what are your parents plans once you no longer require daycare? Do they realize that their monthly income will decrease further, or do they expect you to continue to subsidize them? Maybe when your youngest is in school all day you could use a different provider for afterschool care. This would free up her day so that she could take on a different job. (I realize that she will not like this idea, but it may help you.)
I did mention to her that I couldn't keep paying once the youngest was in full day school (this August!) . that was part of the reason I had the talk with them in the first place. Once I pull my money back for no child care, they are going to fall flat on their faces and I didn't want that to happen, so I made sure to bring it up. It made her mad, and she said I would still have to pay her at least half. I plan on finding someone else just to avoid the aggrivation :( we will see what happens when that time comes.
And yes, I'm an only child.
-
Two jobs that I have enjoyed are
1.substitute teaching for a local private high school with minimal discipline issues. I was able to walk to work, the kids adored me (like following me around town), and eventually the staff wanted me to apply for a job. What's nice is that I generally didn't have to teach, though I liked to and often annoyed the kids by insisting on just ten minutes explaining the material. I also got the occasional office work which started off being reception area but again I sort of demanded to be made useful and they complied. I generally worked to the maximum below paying taxes or feeling like it cut in on my studies (I was in school at a place most of the students would have loved to get acceptance to), and it forced me to be productive instead of random time wasters. I estimated that I worked 3 hours and got paid to hang out. Its also a pretty short day and the assignments could be a day or weeks, and no problem if i turned one down. Inflation adjusted it paid around $125/day.
2. Security guard. A lot like the subbing, paid to be present. Handed out packages, went for a look around the apartment building and parking lot. Tenants were nice, low income artists and occasionally wanted me to see their studios. I was a tiny, barely 18 year old female, so my being a security guard was kind of a joke, but we had a second person on radio. Biggest problem was that I worked weekends which is frustrating as a college student and not always as productive if i had been partying. Not that I ever did that. A male relative did this as an adult and got a gun license. I think he may be shorter than me, but if I got $20/hr (inflation adjusted) then I assume he got double that. An option to your dad?
I went back and read your old thread, and you said you'd been paying your mom $400. I assume you bumped it up, great, but if she did more than 3 years before that (youngest is 5?) ) then the difference covers your "loan" to them. Just a thought if you want to justify forgiving the loan (to yourself and them).
-
I went back and read your old thread, and you said you'd been paying your mom $400. I assume you bumped it up, great, but if she did more than 3 years before that (youngest is 5?) ) then the difference covers your "loan" to them. Just a thought if you want to justify forgiving the loan (to yourself and them).
Thanks for the job ideas!
Yes, I started paying her more about a year ago. There was no "loan" or short pay in the past, though. I used to be married and my ex husband didn't often have a job, so he was home when I went to work and I didn't need daycare.
I wish there was a way to rationalize giving them so much, but I would have done it already if there was :(
-
Thanks! My mom is really hard to get through to. She shuts down almost immediately, and not just with me, but with everyone I think :( My dad is receptive to suggestions, but relys on my mom to implement them, so that's no help. These last few days have been so peaceful without her talking to me, but it bothers me that it always has to be so difficult with them..
You haven't said much about the dynamics between the two of them, but I was wondering if you could make more progress if you talked just to your Dad, and really laid it out to him what the next decade is going to look like. Get him to understand that your Mom is spending more than he is earning; that a lot of his income is just going to interest payments, their debt is growing, and their earning capacity is shrinking. Tell him your concerns about Alzheimers. It sounds a bit unethical but I'm basically suggesting that you cut your Mom out of the conversation.
I would hazard a guess that part of the problem is that neither one of them has taken responsibility for their financial situation. I think you'll find that in almost all couples on this board, one person led and the partner followed - either enthusiastically or reluctantly - but someone needs to be the leader in this and at the moment it's you, which isn't working, and I don't think your Mom wants to do it, so hello, Dad. Grab him after work when he's tired and before he's seen your Mom, and show him a vision of a more financially secure, less hard-working future.
-
It sounds as if you have enough problems with the family dynamics, but I just wanted to say that one way you could be partially paid back for the $6500 you lent them is if your mom did the remaining childcare free. I know this would leave them even shorter, financially, each month, and so there'd probably be enormous pushback. But just to say that it's not as if they have no way to pay you back any of that money. They have a way. They're just choosing not to do it. Intentionally or unintentionally, you are now a major source of income for them, and so it's to be expected that they'd put up a huge fight at losing that. I'm sure they love you, but there's also a dependence developing, and I'm sure you're wise to put a stop to that.
-
Update: over a year later, my parents have finally decided to turn off their cable and internet..... And are investigating cheaper cell phone options...... Sheesh! I wonder if she just really realized anything, or if they were gonna cut her off for non payment or something.... The world may never know.
-
Are you still paying your mother for childcare?
-
Are you still paying your mother for childcare?
No, once my kids were all in school full day, I started using the after-school care offered by the school. It's about $200 less than what I paid my mom, and it saves me about 10+ miles of driving each day. My mom still decided not to try to go to work, so when summer break came, I paid her to watch the kids for the summer.
She started watching the baby of a friend of mine a couple days per week. I know they are still going backwards and running up credit cards, but I think it will get better now.. without cable's advertising and internet, my mom won't be tempted into online shopping. I'm hoping it helps!
-
How egotistical of you to think that your parents will take lessons from you, their child. Which one of your kids know more than you?
Sorry, this was a hard pill my wife had to swallow about her parents. But seriously, you need to check your ego and let them be. They likely can't hear anything you have to say - it would need to come from someone/somewhere else.
MOD NOTE: Forum rule #1.
-
No, once my kids were all in school full day, I started using the after-school care offered by the school. It's about $200 less than what I paid my mom, and it saves me about 10+ miles of driving each day. My mom still decided not to try to go to work, so when summer break came, I paid her to watch the kids for the summer.
She started watching the baby of a friend of mine a couple days per week. I know they are still going backwards and running up credit cards, but I think it will get better now.. without cable's advertising and internet, my mom won't be tempted into online shopping. I'm hoping it helps!
Stop enabling her. Seriously, stop enabling her.
Especially if you want to have any ability to speak into her life. She probably thinks she is doing you a favor by watching your kids. The more you enable her, the more you are effectively undermining your ability to actually speak meaningfully about the situation.
-
How egotistical of you to think that your parents will take lessons from you, their child. Which one of your kids know more than you?
Sorry, this was a hard pill my wife had to swallow about her parents. But seriously, you need to check your ego and let them be. They likely can't hear anything you have to say - it would need to come from someone/somewhere else.
Wow. It's really a bad idea to help your family when you see them suffering and try to show them there is an easier way. Glad you aren't in my corner.
-
No, once my kids were all in school full day, I started using the after-school care offered by the school. It's about $200 less than what I paid my mom, and it saves me about 10+ miles of driving each day. My mom still decided not to try to go to work, so when summer break came, I paid her to watch the kids for the summer.
She started watching the baby of a friend of mine a couple days per week. I know they are still going backwards and running up credit cards, but I think it will get better now.. without cable's advertising and internet, my mom won't be tempted into online shopping. I'm hoping it helps!
Stop enabling her. Seriously, stop enabling her.
Especially if you want to have any ability to speak into her life. She probably thinks she is doing you a favor by watching your kids. The more you enable her, the more you are effectively undermining your ability to actually speak meaningfully about the situation.
I agree here. It was a conflicting issue. My kids love the pool at my parents and I figured it was better than daycare. Next summer I will probably fly find a different option.
-
Help them if you want - just don't try to change them. No surprise that someone without the maturity to know they can't educate their parents would get defensive about what I said. You can get all offended or take in some wisdom. Much like a teenager, you have been offended. I don't care one way or another.
-
There's always those parents whose kids teach them. Pity for the kids.
Age may not equal wisdom, but it does allow the time to gain experience in which to gain wisdom.
-
There's always those parents whose kids teach them. Pity for the kids.
Why? Ever since my kids were born they have taught me a great deal of things. Patience, empathy, communication, perspective, and more patience. As they grow and learn I am learning along with them about subjects that I never had the opportunity to learn or at the level of detail that their curiosity takes them to.
I believe that I will continue to learn from my children as much as they will learn from me as long as I am still of sound mind.
-
Posting to follow, primarily. I hope the cutting of cable and internet leads to larger improvements.
Nyxst, how much of your mother refusing to get a regular job is due to her thinking that her career is as an artist?
-
Nyxst, how much of your mother refusing to get a regular job is due to her thinking that her career is as an artist?
None, I don't think. She has a social anxiety issue. I've asked her to try talking to her doctor about it, but she has gotten gradually worse over the years. It is even harder for her as she gets older. She has no confidence. My dad is a social butterfly and is always out and about. She rarely leaves the house. That's why the cable thing is such a major issue... I think it's her best friend in some weird way. I see the same tendencies in myself, so I try to force myself to be more social then I would probably be naturally, just for fear that I could withdraw completely. She is not a happy person and I wish I could do more.
Still, she is an amazing artist. The problem is that the easiest way to make fast cash is buy drawing people on request (she can make $50 to pen and ink someone's child for example) but she won't put herself into a position to meet new people, and you can't really draw the SAME people's kids over and over... She watched kids mostly while I was growing up.
-
Learning from your kids through the experience of raising them, and learning from the experience of sharing of life with other human beings in general, is one thing.
Your kids sitting you down at the table and teaching you things that you should have taught them is totally different. We're talking finances and decision making skills here, not new tech gadgets and photography apps.
You can soap box your ideal life experience with your wonderful, insightful and wise kids all you want. But encouraging someone to expend their energies on a lost cause, relatives as they may be, is bad advice.
The whole point of this site is about debunking typical belief systems and behaviors that result in poor financial/life decisions. Since OP is engaging in the same activities over and over again ("teaching" her parents about finance), expecting different results, maybe its time for a change of perspective rather than more of the same (manipulating finance figures).
It has been said that doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results, is the definition of insanity.
-
Learning from your kids through the experience of raising them, and learning from the experience of sharing of life with other human beings in general, is one thing.
Your kids sitting you down at the table and teaching you things that you should have taught them is totally different. We're talking finances and decision making skills here, not new tech gadgets and photography apps.
You can soap box your ideal life experience with your wonderful, insightful and wise kids all you want. But encouraging someone to expend their energies on a lost cause, relatives as they may be, is bad advice.
The whole point of this site is about debunking typical belief systems and behaviors that result in poor financial/life decisions. Since OP is engaging in the same activities over and over again ("teaching" her parents about finance), expecting different results, maybe its time for a change of perspective rather than more of the same (manipulating finance figures).
It has been said that doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results, is the definition of insanity.
Sure, my parents are a lost cause. Still, I will try to help them by showing them what I can. I honestly hope that all three of my kids are smarter and better at life than I am. I hope someday to be able to stand next to them as adults and be able to learn from their worldly experiences, because they will have different experiences than I do. I am 36... I have three kids (my parents only had one) so I, logically, have had a different experience than they had when it comes to raising children. I think if a question ever came up about raising "kids" and having them get along well (just for example) I would surely be able to answer the question better than my parents could... because we have had different life experiences. I have had to budget very differently to "survive" being a single parent with three kids and having gone through divorce, things that my parents NEVER experienced... so they never got the difficult lessons I got. They had wealthy parents, who gave them each a lot, and who are gone now. They never learned. I learned. I don't see the problem with three adult humans sitting down and sharing life lessons with each other to try to help where there is a lack of knowledge. Obviously, they know a lot about a lot of things that they can still teach me. Just not a lot about money.
That all being said, I am completely hands off with them. I tried to help a year ago, I gave them information in the best way I though I could, then I stepped back and focused on my own life and my own issues. The seem to have slowly decided they like one or two of the things we talked about and have been incorporating things. No magic wand, just sharing of ideas between adults that happen to be related.
-
Help them if you want - just don't try to change them. No surprise that someone without the maturity to know they can't educate their parents would get defensive about what I said. You can get all offended or take in some wisdom. Much like a teenager, you have been offended. I don't care one way or another.
You didn't read your mod note so I am reposting it for you.
MOD NOTE: Forum rule #1.
For your convenience (since you seem to have not read them), here are the rules:
The overriding principle here on this site: Be a human being and treat others respectfully.
That includes, but is not limited to:
1. Don't be a jerk.
2. Attack an argument, not a person.
3. Your posts must not break any laws.
4. Be respectful of the site and other members.
5. No spam.
6. Use good taste.
PS If anyone is sounding like a teenager here, it is you.
-
Nyxst, how much of your mother refusing to get a regular job is due to her thinking that her career is as an artist?
None, I don't think. She has a social anxiety issue. I've asked her to try talking to her doctor about it, but she has gotten gradually worse over the years. It is even harder for her as she gets older. She has no confidence. My dad is a social butterfly and is always out and about. She rarely leaves the house. That's why the cable thing is such a major issue... I think it's her best friend in some weird way. I see the same tendencies in myself, so I try to force myself to be more social then I would probably be naturally, just for fear that I could withdraw completely. She is not a happy person and I wish I could do more.
Still, she is an amazing artist. The problem is that the easiest way to make fast cash is buy drawing people on request (she can make $50 to pen and ink someone's child for example) but she won't put herself into a position to meet new people, and you can't really draw the SAME people's kids over and over... She watched kids mostly while I was growing up.
This struck a chord, as my mother was similar and got steadily worse for her last decade of life.
-
Learning from your kids through the experience of raising them, and learning from the experience of sharing of life with other human beings in general, is one thing.
Your kids sitting you down at the table and teaching you things that you should have taught them is totally different. We're talking finances and decision making skills here, not new tech gadgets and photography apps.
You can soap box your ideal life experience with your wonderful, insightful and wise kids all you want. But encouraging someone to expend their energies on a lost cause, relatives as they may be, is bad advice.
The whole point of this site is about debunking typical belief systems and behaviors that result in poor financial/life decisions. Since OP is engaging in the same activities over and over again ("teaching" her parents about finance), expecting different results, maybe its time for a change of perspective rather than more of the same (manipulating finance figures).
It has been said that doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results, is the definition of insanity.
I don't see the difference, really, and you are totally off base to think it's egotistical. Clearly OP is better at money than her parents, and later, she's explained why (her life experience). I'm better at engineering than my parents, my mom was a much better gardener, my dad better at fixing cars. Etc. etc.
I think it's difficult when it's such a close family member - for more than one reason.
#1, it hurts to see someone you love suffer like this, when you know there's a better way. And it's probably not that her parents are stupid, just uneducated in this particular area.
#2, their lives are intertwined, albeit less so than at first with the child care. (And as far as summer care goes, it's possible that it was cheaper than other options). They owe her money. They are going to continue to ask her for money. It's going to be very difficult to "cut them off" financially but not emotionally.
I have a great, talented friend who is a dietitian. She once told me that many years into her career, she learned about phases of learning and change. She realized that there are several "phases" and some people JUST AREN'T READY. She learned to identify which people would come to her and want the magic bullet - they were not ready to make changes - and which people were ready. She actually took seminars to be able to identify these traits.
This seems similar. OP's parents have to be ready.
My 10 year old teaches me stuff all the time - computer programming, chess, baseball, all about the largest volcano ever in the world...
-
I don't see the difference, really, and you are totally off base to think it's egotistical. Clearly OP is better at money than her parents, and later, she's explained why (her life experience). I'm better at engineering than my parents, my mom was a much better gardener, my dad better at fixing cars. Etc. etc.
I think that the far more normal situation is parents not being willing to learn from their children, particularly on anything parents feel awkward about, such as money. This problem gets a lot worse the more the parents need the advice.
It fits my family well, my parents would never want to learn anything from me - someday they might stop seeing me as a kid, but that day has not yet come and I suspect never will.
Imagine your 10 year old tried to give you marriage counseling if you and your SO were finding it hard. Would you take them seriously? Seek out their counsel? Sure, you might find it cute, but would you take them seriously? Why or why not? Now recognize that same feeling is present in many of these interactions where important things are concerned for many parental relationships.
-
Nyxst, how much of your mother refusing to get a regular job is due to her thinking that her career is as an artist?
Still, she is an amazing artist. The problem is that the easiest way to make fast cash is buy drawing people on request (she can make $50 to pen and ink someone's child for example) but she won't put herself into a position to meet new people, and you can't really draw the SAME people's kids over and over... She watched kids mostly while I was growing up.
Seems like she has no anxiety around kids. Maybe she should try holding art classes for kids. This could lead to other opportunities. She can start small, one or two classes a week. If she's good, word will get around. She could do it right from their house. No costs for her but time. Make sure she has the students pay for all materials.
Then if you have the time and energy , you could help her manage the parents, or advertising. Really it doesn't take much. Just find out what other art classes charge, and let neighbors know she's going to do it. Let word of mouth bring in new students.
-
Nyxst, how much of your mother refusing to get a regular job is due to her thinking that her career is as an artist?
Still, she is an amazing artist. The problem is that the easiest way to make fast cash is buy drawing people on request (she can make $50 to pen and ink someone's child for example) but she won't put herself into a position to meet new people, and you can't really draw the SAME people's kids over and over... She watched kids mostly while I was growing up.
Seems like she has no anxiety around kids. Maybe she should try holding art classes for kids. This could lead to other opportunities. She can start small, one or two classes a week. If she's good, word will get around. She could do it right from their house. No costs for her but time. Make sure she has the students pay for all materials.
Then if you have the time and energy , you could help her manage the parents, or advertising. Really it doesn't take much. Just find out what other art classes charge, and let neighbors know she's going to do it. Let word of mouth bring in new students.
Excellent idea! I will run that past her!
-
I don't see the difference, really, and you are totally off base to think it's egotistical. Clearly OP is better at money than her parents, and later, she's explained why (her life experience). I'm better at engineering than my parents, my mom was a much better gardener, my dad better at fixing cars. Etc. etc.
I think that the far more normal situation is parents not being willing to learn from their children, particularly on anything parents feel awkward about, such as money. This problem gets a lot worse the more the parents need the advice.
It fits my family well, my parents would never want to learn anything from me - someday they might stop seeing me as a kid, but that day has not yet come and I suspect never will.
Imagine your 10 year old tried to give you marriage counseling if you and your SO were finding it hard. Would you take them seriously? Seek out their counsel? Sure, you might find it cute, but would you take them seriously? Why or why not? Now recognize that same feeling is present in many of these interactions where important things are concerned for many parental relationships.
Honestly children can be very wise. While we don't have marital problems, we have argued from time to time. The 10 year old (when he was younger) has come out with some statements that REALLY did make me stop and think.
(Sometimes the answer is simple and we make it too complicated.)