The Money Mustache Community

Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: jeromedawg on November 04, 2015, 11:28:55 AM

Title: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: jeromedawg on November 04, 2015, 11:28:55 AM
So our newborn is now at just over 2 months and it's been quite a ride. My wife is exhausted and it's hard to see. We've been dealing with reflux issues as well as food allergy issues (wife had to cut out dairy, soy and wheat). And the whole milk-supply issue is another story. Baby seems to constantly be hungry after my wife feeds him, yet after feeding him yesterday he spit up 2-3 times immediately after. We've been giving him Ranitidine to help with reflux, so I don't think that's the issue. Besides overeating, what else could be the problem?

That leads to the next point about his sleep schedule. He's been super-fussy at night time lately. My wife has been trying to get him on a consistent sleeping schedule but he just won't have it. Lately he's been screaming his lungs off for 20-30+ mins at a time until my wife either gives him a pacifier (which is just a band-aid since he'll spit it out just as easily). She will give into comfort-nursing but lately it has been a catch-22 because as soon as she de-latches he starts whining, and will go absolutely crazy if you put him down in the rocker or co-sleeper. We've tried supplementing with some formula to help soothe him but nothing seems to work. Sometimes he'll go down full/satisfied but won't sleep for more than an hour if she's lucky. Last night, with her parents staying over, it came down to letting him cry it out for 30+ minutes until he fell asleep. Her parents (first time grandparents) were frantic and ended up scolding and lecturing her on how she should nurse him to sleep and that's what they did with her and her brother blah blah blah.

Yesterday, he logged maybe around 10 hours of sleep total and was super-cranky at night when trying to have him sleep.

This is all so super-frustrating - if it's not one issue it's another.

Anyone have advice/strategies/coping mechanisms/whatever? Going to bed is becoming something neither of us look forward to.
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: Stachetastic on November 04, 2015, 11:35:42 AM
I don't have any good suggestions, but wanted to let you know I've been there. It's so unbelievably hard. We never identified any allergies in our son, but milk supply was a huge issue. We switched to formula at 2 months, but he still didn't sleep through the night until he was 18 months old. I'm not trying to scare you--I'm sure your little guy will get with the program much sooner!

Kids are challenging. Babies are infinitely so. I don't think I could ever do the baby stage again. The good news? They do get easier. Hang in there.
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: FrugalFan on November 04, 2015, 11:36:36 AM
I have dealt with all of this (both my kids had reflux, my son also had allergies to milk and soy, and I never made enough milk so always had to supplement). I assume your wife is completely off milk and soy and that the formula you supplement with is hypoallergenic? I will say though that regardless of all these issues, two months is VERY young and probably the worst of the sleep issues. Most babies are not ready to go to sleep on their own at that age, and it is definitely too young to cry it out. With both kids, we had the witching hours in the evening from 6 PM to 11 PM or so at that age, where they were very fussy and cluster feeding and seemingly inconsolable. We spent a lot of time feeding and walking around the house bouncing them in our arms. I will tell you that it does get better and this is the worst age for sleep. By 3-4 months there were already some improvements during the evening and bedtime started to move earlier. There were still a lot of night wakings, but the evenings were definitely easier.
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: ShoulderThingThatGoesUp on November 04, 2015, 11:41:24 AM
We ended up co-sleeping with comfort nursing. That's what worked for us and we'll do it again with the next one. People break it a lot earlier than we are - we're approaching 2 and she still nurses, or hangs out on the boob, to sleep. But we've all gotten plenty of sleep since two weeks in, and that's definitely made me a more capable parent.
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: jeromedawg on November 04, 2015, 11:42:54 AM
We ended up co-sleeping with comfort nursing. That's what worked for us and we'll do it again with the next one. People break it a lot earlier than we are - we're approaching 2 and she still nurses, or hangs out on the boob, to sleep. But we've all gotten plenty of sleep since two weeks in, and that's definitely made me a more capable parent.

So you fall asleep with them latched?
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: fiveoh on November 04, 2015, 11:45:22 AM
It sucks.  Our first kid was a bad sleeper and is still a light sleeper at 4.  Our second was awesome and was sleeping 5-6 hours at night at 2-3 months.(and still sleeps better than his brother)  I'm not sure there is always a reason for kids sleeping patterns that one can fix.  Good luck!!
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: KCM5 on November 04, 2015, 11:46:15 AM
We ended up co-sleeping with comfort nursing. That's what worked for us and we'll do it again with the next one. People break it a lot earlier than we are - we're approaching 2 and she still nurses, or hangs out on the boob, to sleep. But we've all gotten plenty of sleep since two weeks in, and that's definitely made me a more capable parent.

So you fall asleep with them latched?

Yes

For us the nursing while sleeping thing didn't work until she was at least a couple of months old. Before then it was just painful (we had latch issues). Give that a try, if your wife is comfortable with it.

But in general, I just wanted to say hang in there. There's a light at the end of the tunnel and they get much easier as they get older.
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: FrugalFan on November 04, 2015, 11:46:33 AM
We didn't co-sleep but we did nurse to sleep.
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: ysette9 on November 04, 2015, 11:51:08 AM
I feel for you. It is super rough and you have to do whatever will keep you all sane. When we had rough night like that we sometimes would sleep with our baby on one of our chests wrapped up in the Moby wrap to be secure. Then whoever had the baby would sleep reclined on pillows. The baby liked the comfort of being next to a warm parent's chest. I also suspect that being in a somewhat upright position helped with any reflux issues.
Can you cosleep and sideline nurse the baby to sleep?
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: ShoulderThingThatGoesUp on November 04, 2015, 11:52:36 AM
We ended up co-sleeping with comfort nursing. That's what worked for us and we'll do it again with the next one. People break it a lot earlier than we are - we're approaching 2 and she still nurses, or hangs out on the boob, to sleep. But we've all gotten plenty of sleep since two weeks in, and that's definitely made me a more capable parent.

So you fall asleep with them latched?

Sure do. No blankets or sheets on you, turn up the heat if you need to. Skip pillows for a while. It's better than not sleeping. Baby will pretty quickly get so he finds the boob when he stirs without waking anybody up at all.

For a few months I (father) slept in a separate bed because I'm a pretty heavy sleeper, but it probably wasn't necessary.
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: blueridge on November 04, 2015, 11:56:11 AM
For us, putting baby in a separate room did the trick.  I, for one, didn't know the difference between real "crying" and when baby was simply making noise in his sleep.  Turns out he is just a noisy sleeper, even if he's perfectly content.

After about 3 months he started sleeping through the night. 
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: jengod on November 04, 2015, 12:04:33 PM
http://thechimericalcapuchin.com/babybooks/

I bought all the top books on baby sleep and development. I read through them all, as well as several blogs and sleep websites. I gathered lots of advice.

You shouldnít sleep train at all, before a year, before 6 months, or before 4 months, but if you wait too late, your baby will never be able to sleep without you. College-aged children never need to be nursed, rocked, helped to sleep, so donít worry about any bad habits. Nursing, rocking, singing, swaddling, etc. to sleep are all bad habits and should be stopped immediately. White noise will help them fall asleep. White noise, heartbeart sounds, etc., donít work. Naps should only be taken in the bed, never in a swing, carseat, stroller, or when worn. Letting them sleep in the carseat or swing will damage their skulls. If your baby has trouble falling asleep in the bed, put them in a swing, carseat, stroller, or wear them.

Put the baby in a nursery, bed in your room, in your bed. Co-sleeping is the best way to get sleep, except that it can kill your baby, so never ever do it. If your baby doesnít die, you will need to bedshare until college.

Use the same cues as night: cut lights, keep the house quiet and still. Differentiate naps from nightly sleep by leaving the lights on and making a regular amount of noise. Keep the room warm, but not too warm. Swaddle the baby tightly, but not too tightly. Put them on their back to sleep, but donít let them be on their backs too long or they will be developmentally delayed. Give them a pacifier to reduce SIDS. Be careful about pacifiers because they can cause nursing problems and stop your baby from sleeping soundly. If your baby sleeps too soundly, theyíll die of SIDS.

Donít let your baby sleep too long, except when theyíve been napping too much, then you should wake them. Never wake a sleeping baby. Any baby problem can be solved by putting them to bed earlier, even if they are waking up too early. If your baby wakes up too early, put them to bed later or cut out a nap. Donít let them nap after 5 pm. Sleep begets sleep, so try to get your child to sleep as much as possible. Put the baby to bed awake but drowsy. Donít wake the baby if it fell asleep while nursing.

You should start a routine and keep track of everything. Not just when they sleep and how long, but how long it has been between sleep, how many naps theyíve had per day, and what you were doing before they slept. Have a set time per day that you put them to bed. Donít watch the clock. Put them on a schedule. Scheduling will make your life impossible because they will constantly be thrown off of it and you will become a prisoner in your home.

Using CIO will make them think theyíve been abandoned and will be eaten by a lion shortly. It also causes brain damage. Not getting enough sleep will cause behavior and mental problems, so be sure to put them to sleep by any means necessary, especially CIO, which is the most effective form. Extinction CIO is cruel beyond belief and the only thing that truly works because parents are a distraction. The Sleep Lady Shuffle and Ferber method are really CIO in disguise or Controlled Crying and so much better than Extinction. All three of these will prevent your child from ever bonding with you in a healthy way.

Bedsharing and gentler forms of settling will cause your child to become too dependent on you.

Topping the baby off before bed will help prevent night wakings. When babies wake at night, it isnít because they are hungry. If the baby wants to nurse to sleep, press on the babyís chin to close its mouth. Donít stop the baby from nursing when asleep because that doesnít cause a bad habit. Be wary of night feeds. If you respond too quickly with food or comfort, your baby is manipulating you. Babies canít manipulate. Babies older than six months can manipulate.

Sleep when the baby sleeps. Clean when the baby cleans. Donít worry. Stress causes your baby stress and a stressed baby wonít sleep.
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: ysette9 on November 04, 2015, 12:06:36 PM
You probably know this already, but just to be sure, babies sleep worse and worse the more overtired they get. This seems counter intuitive at first. 10 hours total in a day for a 2-month old is really insufficient. I would try to do whatever you can to get the baby to sleep more during the day and hope that the nighttime will eventually get better.

What worked well for us personally (my daughter was and still is a dreadful sleeper) when she was really young was baby wearing with a wrap like the Rhapsody Breeze or the Moby (or Ergo, Boba, etc. NOT a crotch dangler like a Bjorn). There are instructional videos on Youtube on how to do the wrap and lots of baby wearing classes and coaches if you need. The point is the baby should feel safe and secure wrapped snugly against your warm body and should be able to sleep deeply. Wear the baby throughout the day so he/she can sleep sufficiently as well as just get that comfort. Baby wearing also leaves you hands-free so you can get chores done or just take a walk or something.

I also recommend hiring a sleep coach to help you out if you are really struggling. There is no shame in asking for help. These times with a young baby are SO hard and it is so challenging to figure out what they need. Hang in there - we are all rooting for you!
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: CheapskateWife on November 04, 2015, 12:08:58 PM
We ended up co-sleeping with comfort nursing. That's what worked for us and we'll do it again with the next one. People break it a lot earlier than we are - we're approaching 2 and she still nurses, or hangs out on the boob, to sleep. But we've all gotten plenty of sleep since two weeks in, and that's definitely made me a more capable parent.

So you fall asleep with them latched?

This +1000 for both of my sons....look, it ain't sexy but your spouse and you NEED to get some sleep.  So curl up in a big family bed and let that baby have the boob.  Switch sides in the night.  Whatever you have to do.  As her partner, please make sure you aren't going to bed in an inebriated state, as that will pose a greater risk to rolling over on the precious little one. 

I used to nap in the lazy boy recliner at 2:00 in the morning while oldest was still nursing.  Prop up enough pillows that he/she can't roll out of the bed, and if it will make you feel better, go ahead and put some pillows on the floor just in case.  Ours never rolled, but my preferred position was baby between mommy and daddy.  It just worked.  And at about 9 months, both boys were able to transition to sleeping on their own.

Also, please rest assured that your little one WILL grow out of this.  I know its painful now and you are exhausted but it will pass.
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: tomorrowsomewherenew on November 04, 2015, 12:33:55 PM
I'm a mom of a 1 year old, so it hasn't been too long since I was there. Dealing with a newborn was definitely one of the more trying experiences of my life. You've got a lot of issues you're dealing with: a newborn, feeding problems, sleeping problems and so on. I can't give a lot of advice other than to survive the day, so that tomorrow you can fight again. It's a very frustrating experience, but it sounds like these are problems that time will eventually solve. Please come back and give us an update in the following weeks and months!

Eventually you won't be dealing with baby problems and you'll be dealing with toddler temper tantrums instead!
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: catccc on November 04, 2015, 12:48:08 PM
Another vote for proper baby wearing so baby can catch some daytime zzzs while mom can do something else, maybe some chores or just a relaxing walk outside.  And the daytime sleep may well lead to better nighttime sleep.  We mostly kept DD1 & DD2 in a portable sized crib pushed right up to my side of our bed, and more often with DD2, I'd wake up with her in bed with us, sometimes latched, sometimes just sleeping next to me.  I often did not even remember taking her out to nurse at night.  So we slept well enough.  But 2 months, that's still a time of very non-routine sleeping, I think.

I was very careful to un-latch DD1 before she was completely out, and putting her down in her crib, and there was a lot of standing over the crib to pick her up and put her down (PUPD).  With DD 2 we were not as on top of this.  really, I didn't have the time to stand by the crib for the PUPD.  I liked PUPD because I felt like I was conveying "I'm here if you need me.  And I want you to sleep in your crib.  But I'm here if you need me.  But please sleep in your crib"  Yes, it was a seemingly endless cycle of this.  But it wasn't CIO, and it wasn't me completely ignoring my own needs for my baby.  Honestly, they both slept about the same.  Not horrible, but not super.  Maybe even relatively well compared to others.  They both transitioned to their own bedrooms (or a shared kids room for DD2) around at just over 1 year.

Babies don't really have schedules, as in set times, but the do like routines, as in do things in the order.  At least that is how it seemed for my kids.

I must have read a dozen baby books, half of which were specifically on sleep.  I recommend "the no-cry sleep solution."  I think that is what helped me the most.  the PUPD I got from Tracy Hogg's baby whisperer book.  And she may have even advocated a hand on the baby in the crib, not even picking up.  I can't really remember.  My kids are 4 and 7 now.  And everyone in the house sleeps great.  Except my husband, who wakes early to work in a coffee shop, but stays up late to hang out with me.
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: MayDay on November 04, 2015, 12:56:50 PM
Lots of good advice.

I would just add that you should be cautious about CIO with such a young baby.  There is loads of research that it is not good for their tiny little brains.  6 months would be my minimum.  Younger than that, no way. 
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: NewbieFrugalUK on November 04, 2015, 01:04:42 PM
Hang on in there! 2 months is still very small. I know it's not very mustachian to throw money at the problem but maybe invest in one of those crib thingies that is on an incline? We had a sleepyhead which was awesome but if reflux is part of the problem them the one that they are sort of strapped to can be brilliant.  I'll look up its name. Also be aware that it can take 6 weeks for the dairy to leave your wife's system so it may take a bit of time for things to improve. Massive sympathies! Writing thing with a nearly asleep 7 month old on the boob...
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: everinprogress on November 04, 2015, 01:09:00 PM
Sorry you're having a rough time right now- although most babies do it at some point. Mine was a terrible sleeper until he was about 6 months old.
Only real suggestion is try different stuff, and see what works for you- lots of people have different idea, but different things work for different babies.  We had to do some sort of sleep training around 3 months, until then little guy was nursing to sleep then I would put him down. But over a week, I couldn't put him down without waking him up anymore, getting him to bed was taking hours each time and getting worse. But we didn't want to let him cry it out. Tried putting him down to sleep, and staying with him until he fell asleep. This didn't work at all, he pretty much stared at me, obviously if I'm there I should be picking him up.  So we started leaving him, letting him cry for a few minutes, and them coming back to get him settled again. Took forever the first week or two, but did actually work without him being too upset/left to cry. We would slowly increase the time we left him before going in my a few minutes each time. Eventually he would go to sleep really easily, which was great.
However, at 6 months he was still getting up every 2-3 hours to eat- which was killing me, and was also totally unnecessary at that age. So back to trying stuff. First, I tired getting him to eat more before bed, and when he got up. This also didn't work at all. If anything, seemed to convince him he was starving to death, and after a few days started getting up even more often. So I started picking one or two feedings a night where I would cut him off a minute or two before he would normally be done eating. (Had to do time, because he was breastfed- otherwise volume would be easier) He would be full enough he wouldn't be too upset, and go to sleep with maybe a few seconds of fussing. Over a number of days, I made those one or two feedings shorter and shorter, and he started sleeping a bit longer. Soon, we had cut one out, and I picked a new night feed to shorten. Took a few weeks, but he finally started letting me sleep properly.
No idea what will work for you, but maybe try a few things that you both feel comfortable with, give it at least a few days to see if it works for your little one, and don't be afraid to try something different, because they're all different.
Best of luck!!
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: mrsnamemustache on November 04, 2015, 01:37:34 PM
I have a 3 month old and all this is on my mind. Know that constant nighttime feeding and fussyness are not abnormal at 2 months and it will get better--probably soon. But also, know that CIO will not harm your baby. The research that allegedly says that it is harmful is problematic and misinterpreted. Check out this great review of the CIO sleep lit:http://scienceofmom.com/2012/02/06/the-cry-it-out-controversy-and-my-familys-sleep-story/

2 months is earlier than generally recommended for CIO, but it won't hurt him, and could work (it worked for my sister). But you still would need to do night feedings with a baby that young, as I understand it.
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: seemsright on November 04, 2015, 01:56:03 PM


I read this...and you all ready got tons of idea on how to help baby...Your wife's parents need to go. Your wife is tired, recovering for child birth, her hormones are crazy, she has a baby that is high maintenance. She does not need to be told that she is doing something wrong, not the way I did it, not this not that. She does not need to be told this by anyone but esp her parents!

It might be worth taking a stand and protecting her from those ideas and not allow her parents to talk to her like that. I do not care if they are first time grandparents. You guys are first time parents and they can wait! Have a rule...no people stay over. They can come visit for 30 minutes her 30 minutes there...but they do not get to stay at your house. Babies do not expire!

When I had our baby. My husband protected me from his mother! She was baby crazy and wanted to be at the hospital when I delivered. He refused to tell her my due date or what hospital I was delivering at. She was allowed to visit for one hour after we got home and bonded as a family 3 weeks later. Then he was very stern with her about when and how she could visit. It made my life so much easier. I struggled with breast feeding and had a baby who would nurse round the clock non stop for the first 4 months. 

Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: Kitsune on November 04, 2015, 02:05:44 PM
We ended up co-sleeping with comfort nursing. That's what worked for us and we'll do it again with the next one. People break it a lot earlier than we are - we're approaching 2 and she still nurses, or hangs out on the boob, to sleep. But we've all gotten plenty of sleep since two weeks in, and that's definitely made me a more capable parent.

So you fall asleep with them latched?

This +1000 for both of my sons....look, it ain't sexy but your spouse and you NEED to get some sleep.  So curl up in a big family bed and let that baby have the boob.  Switch sides in the night.  Whatever you have to do.


This. My daughter would wake up within 20 minutes if she wasn't touching someone (so, crib? co-sleeper? hahahahah NO.) so she spent the first year of her life sleeping basically curled up against my stomach. No blankets, turn up the heat in the bedroom, put the mattress on the floor against the wall, and see if the entire family can't get enough sleep for a few nights. Sleep gives energy and perspective, which in turn gives the ability to deal with other problems. (And, in response to the 'she'll never be out of your bed' common comment, our daughter switched to her own bed once she stopped waking up when she wasn't in physical contact with someone, around 13 months. She now puts herself to sleep in her own bed and sleeps through the night, alone, at 18 months. We got there.)

Also, if the baby has food issues and you're supplementing with formula, make sure it's hypoallergenic (and WHATEVER you do don't taste the hypoallergenic formula that stuff is vile) and, if it's for heath reasons, your insurance should cover it with a prescription, so check if that's an option (because it is more $$ than the regular stuff).
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: jeromedawg on November 04, 2015, 02:10:08 PM


I read this...and you all ready got tons of idea on how to help baby...Your wife's parents need to go. Your wife is tired, recovering for child birth, her hormones are crazy, she has a baby that is high maintenance. She does not need to be told that she is doing something wrong, not the way I did it, not this not that. She does not need to be told this by anyone but esp her parents!

It might be worth taking a stand and protecting her from those ideas and not allow her parents to talk to her like that. I do not care if they are first time grandparents. You guys are first time parents and they can wait! Have a rule...no people stay over. They can come visit for 30 minutes her 30 minutes there...but they do not get to stay at your house. Babies do not expire!

When I had our baby. My husband protected me from his mother! She was baby crazy and wanted to be at the hospital when I delivered. He refused to tell her my due date or what hospital I was delivering at. She was allowed to visit for one hour after we got home and bonded as a family 3 weeks later. Then he was very stern with her about when and how she could visit. It made my life so much easier. I struggled with breast feeding and had a baby who would nurse round the clock non stop for the first 4 months.

Haha so we're both from Asian families and barring her parents (or mine) from our lives including staying over is non-negotiable not to mention a *huge* no-no in Asian culture - you just don't do that. Shunning parents is one of the worst offenses in Asian culture, regardless of if you have a baby. I wish it were that easy but it's just not. Now, with that in mind, we have set boundaries and have our canned responses. With her parents, we've learned just to say "ok thanks for the advice" pretty much and leave it at that. Both our parents have tons of advice on what they think we should do, and it's fine if they tell us what they think...whether or not we actually do those things is up to us. And I think they understand that for the most part - but they'll still speak their minds anyway, and we just have to live with it. Her parents coming down have been a good help in terms of giving her *some* relief and allowing her to rest more during the day. Hopefully that's the case today. Sometimes her parents get on her nerves (I would find it hard to believe someone who tells me their parents *never* get on their nerves or bother them about something...). It's just frustrating when you're already at a low-point and things are piled on you. Her parents scolding her wasn't the end-all of the issues - it was just another factor.
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: jeromedawg on November 04, 2015, 02:14:01 PM
We ended up co-sleeping with comfort nursing. That's what worked for us and we'll do it again with the next one. People break it a lot earlier than we are - we're approaching 2 and she still nurses, or hangs out on the boob, to sleep. But we've all gotten plenty of sleep since two weeks in, and that's definitely made me a more capable parent.

So you fall asleep with them latched?

This +1000 for both of my sons....look, it ain't sexy but your spouse and you NEED to get some sleep.  So curl up in a big family bed and let that baby have the boob.  Switch sides in the night.  Whatever you have to do.


This. My daughter would wake up within 20 minutes if she wasn't touching someone (so, crib? co-sleeper? hahahahah NO.) so she spent the first year of her life sleeping basically curled up against my stomach. No blankets, turn up the heat in the bedroom, put the mattress on the floor against the wall, and see if the entire family can't get enough sleep for a few nights. Sleep gives energy and perspective, which in turn gives the ability to deal with other problems. (And, in response to the 'she'll never be out of your bed' common comment, our daughter switched to her own bed once she stopped waking up when she wasn't in physical contact with someone, around 13 months. She now puts herself to sleep in her own bed and sleeps through the night, alone, at 18 months. We got there.)

Also, if the baby has food issues and you're supplementing with formula, make sure it's hypoallergenic (and WHATEVER you do don't taste the hypoallergenic formula that stuff is vile) and, if it's for heath reasons, your insurance should cover it with a prescription, so check if that's an option (because it is more $$ than the regular stuff).

About the formula, we bought a can of Similac Alimentum - it does smell vile and nasty but our boy chugs it like it's nothing LOL. Good point on prescription/insurance - I'll have my wife check on that with our pediatrician. 
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: Schnurr on November 04, 2015, 02:19:09 PM
I am really sorry to hear this. We have a 3.5-month-old. I think we have been quite lucky, as she sleeps through the night (usually 9-11 hours), plus naps during the day. Here are some random thoughts, maybe some of them are helpful.

-- There's not necessarily a general right or wrong way to do things, but there may be a right way for you that you have not yet found. If you've tried something for several days and it is not working, don't just keep slogging through and fighting the same battle day after day. Try something new for a few days, see if it helps.

-- Absolutely want to second whoever said that the more the baby sleeps during the day, the more she sleeps at night (up to a point at least). This may be counterintuitive, but it was very true for us. As soon as we got her onto a daytime napping schedule when she was just over 2 months old, she started sleeping through the night (9pm to 6 or 7am). However, we started at a very different baseline than you, as our daughter was waking up only 1-2 times/night even before then.

-- At two months, we moved her from a pack n play in our room to a crib in her own room. My wife had been handed down a copy of the "Moms on Call" books, so shortly thereafter we started implementing their recommended sleep schedule (with some minor modifications). Basically, at the 2-4 month age, the day is just a repetition of the following cycle: baby wakes up, baby feeds, interact/play with baby for 1 hour give or take (or until she shows a sign of tiredness), baby goes down for nap. Rinse and repeat 4 times or so during the day. The first nap of the day (in the morning) is usually the longest for us (60-90) minutes; the later naps are usually no longer than 45 minutes. Then she goes to sleep for good around 9pm. There's more to the Moms on Call, so reading it might give you some additional things to try. For example, they tell you to give the baby a bath every night. We don't bother with that.

-- Are you running a white noise machine? We run it (on max volume) every time she sleeps (nighttime and naps).

-- Room temperature? If you think you might be keeping it too warm (and/or overdressing her), you could experiment with that.

That's all I can think of from the top of my head. Again, this was just what worked for us. Unfortunately, babies are not one-size-fits-all, because it would make everything a lot easier. Good luck and keep experimenting!
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: SandyBoxx on November 04, 2015, 02:19:49 PM
You have my greatest sympathies!

I would suggest (as others have) that you get out and get yourself an Ergo carrier with the heart-to-heart baby insert, and get that baby on your chest, now!  One of you will want to be carrying baby on your front for most of the day, at least until baby can get caught up on some sleep.  (It is funny how many times a day they get kissed on the head when they are right there in front of you!)

Bonus - this is one of the few things that you can do to bond with baby at this stage, so take advantage of it!

(Don't forget to stock up on laundry soap if baby suffers from reflux as well - don't ask me how I know!) :)
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: NewbieFrugalUK on November 04, 2015, 02:24:12 PM
The sleep aid thing is called a cocoonababy nest. Also 2 months is really too young for cry it out or pick up put down or any of that really. My bet is once the diet things are sorted, the sleep will improve. Sending you happy thoughts and sympathy on the parent front!
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: FLBiker on November 04, 2015, 02:48:30 PM
We've got a 6 month old, and we nurse to sleep most of the time.  For the most part, my wife nurses her down, then puts her in the bassinet (now a portacrib).  When she's really fussy, we co-sleep.  I like it, but we were afraid that we were cultivating a bunch of bad habits.  Seeing the posts here helps!
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: backandforth on November 04, 2015, 03:08:08 PM
We have twins and are in the thick of this right now. Can't believe I am recommending this, but if you can afford it, get a baby nurse. It cost us a fortune and we are really behind our saving goals this year. But heck we may not survive without that help. I really would rather work longer like one more year than suffering through more sleep deprivation right now. With two, sleep training is next to impossible. We are actually considering getting full time help over the weekend too, we both work (pretty hard and overtime and travel all the good stuff) We have always been very cautious with money matters but this is the one item we really splurge on and it cost more than mortgage but saved our sanity, health and possibly marriage (before the help came I actually once went to a park and spelt in the car after a doc appointment,  and don't want to go home).

Anyways, hiring help is our solution for now. To be fair, baby nurse for 2 is kind of works out financially cause it doesn't add THAT much on sending 2 to day care. See if you can find another baby of similar age to share the cost and care. Next step when they are a little bigger we will get sleep consultant.
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: gReed Smith on November 04, 2015, 03:12:46 PM
I have a very similarly aged child with a more mild case of what you're dealing with.  Here are the things we've tried:

- making sure the baby gets enough sleep.  We were feeding baby every 2 hours because she was on the low end of the growth chart.  We realized that is a bad idea if the baby wants to sleep more.

- make sure the bottle is warm.  Not an issue for nursing, but we do sometimes have to use a bottle for pumped milk. If it's cold she will still drink it, but gets very fussy afterward.

- burp the baby several times during feeding.  My little piggy swallows a lot of air and need to be burped every ten minutes during a meal or she starts to scream.

- cosleeping.  I have mixed feelings about this, but my wife does sleep with the baby in a recliner with a  boppy pillow for support

- Burp her again.  If she burped once but still seems upset, burp again.

- check the diaper again.  She hates a wet diaper, so I always check when she is fussy, even if I just changed it (sorry if this one is too obvious)

-get a swing.  She wants to be held all the time, but sometimes a swing will do for long enough for you to throw laundry in, load the dishwasher and use the potty.

Good luck!  I understand what you're going through.

Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: jeromedawg on November 04, 2015, 03:51:26 PM
I have a very similarly aged child with a more mild case of what you're dealing with.  Here are the things we've tried:

- making sure the baby gets enough sleep.  We were feeding baby every 2 hours because she was on the low end of the growth chart.  We realized that is a bad idea if the baby wants to sleep more.

- make sure the bottle is warm.  Not an issue for nursing, but we do sometimes have to use a bottle for pumped milk. If it's cold she will still drink it, but gets very fussy afterward.

- burp the baby several times during feeding.  My little piggy swallows a lot of air and need to be burped every ten minutes during a meal or she starts to scream.

- cosleeping.  I have mixed feelings about this, but my wife does sleep with the baby in a recliner with a  boppy pillow for support

- Burp her again.  If she burped once but still seems upset, burp again.

- check the diaper again.  She hates a wet diaper, so I always check when she is fussy, even if I just changed it (sorry if this one is too obvious)

-get a swing.  She wants to be held all the time, but sometimes a swing will do for long enough for you to throw laundry in, load the dishwasher and use the potty.

Good luck!  I understand what you're going through.

Thanks all for the tips!

Yea the burping is definitely one thing my wife tried the other night and it resolved it. Last night though was different... heaven knows what haha. Maybe we'll just the nurse-to-sleep in our bed method if he's crazy again tonight or soon to come.

As far as the swing, we borrowed one from a friend, then in broke, then I tried to fix it and made it worse :( Ugh
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: MerryMcQ on November 04, 2015, 04:24:01 PM
My DD was a constant eater and a night owl. She nursed every hour all night long (by the time she was 6 months she was going every 2 hours). She was also a low growth baby, so the pediatrician wanted us to nurse her as often as she wanted. It seemed like by the time she was changed, nursed, burped, changed, burped again, and finally back to sleep, she'd wake up again hungry and wet!!! I co-slept and nursed in bed simply out of exhaustion. We got into a pattern where her father would do the 9 pm, 10 pm, 11 pm feedings (with a bottle of breast milk) in the livingroom, so I could get 3 hours of sleep, and I would be on duty from midnight to 5 am. Then there was a nice 5 am-8 am nap and I slept, rather than trying to do anything.

It seemed like 3 hours was the magic number for sleep; as long as I could get at least one 3 hour stretch, I was so much more capable of dealing with life. But those first 6 months were torture (I went back to work when she turned 2 months, and I remember falling asleep at lunch at my desk... it was the most peaceful hour of my day!).

Co-sleeping was the only thing that kept us all going. That, and nursing to sleep.

Have hope. My kids are now 11 & 13, and they both fall asleep in their own beds. They even bath themselves, are potty trained, and can manage to feed themselves. :) I look back on those 3 am nursings and kinda miss the warm, snuggly baby time... (but I do like the 8 hours of sleep I get now. seriously. awesome.)
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: lakemom on November 04, 2015, 05:04:32 PM
I have 6! kids and one was 6.5 weeks early and was a breastfeeding counselor for many years (both volunteer and paid positions before the IBCLC designation existed (didn't want to go back to school for credentials so stopped working in this field).  2 months old should be nursing for at least 20 minutes (10 per side) every 1-2 hours around the clock with at most a 4 hour stretch at night (but that's rarer than most would lead you to believe).  It will be another 1-1.5 months before this begins to consistently stretch to the 2-3 hour time frame.  For weak nursers who are slow eaters it came seem as if the are attached to you all. the. time.!  Its ok they will outgrow it and forcing the issue never works because the babies are only aware of their immediate needs (mama and milky) not what the "book", "neighbor", relatives, etc. think is "right" for all babies.  Each one is unique and its up to each family to work our what it is that works best for their child (and no 2 children in the same family are the same).  Maybe your little guy needs Daddy to be walking him to sleep each night (my #2 who couldn't settle at night until he was around 5 months old) once his tummy is full.  Maybe he needs to nurse a weeee bit longer than your wife thinks he does until he passes into the deep sleep phase.   Maybe cosleeping (and learning to nurse while lying on her side) and learning its ok to doze off while baby nibbles (or even falling asleep) is perfectly OK.  You will be amazed at how much better you can feel with just a little bit more sleep.  Mainly, know that you are NOT alone...everyone goes through this even experienced parents (our #6 had such a piercing scream that dh and I would just look at each other and exclaim...thank God she's not our first, we'd panic!).  Hang in there, exercise some patience (easier said than done when sleep deprived) and he will grow bigger, get better at nursing, get better at sleeping and life will even back out.  I can clearly remember (especially with my younger ones) realizing one day how much better things were and how much less sleep deprived I felt and feeling triumphant that I'd made it through the difficult newborn stage!  You CAN do this.

PS....I know it is extremely hard on you to watch them struggling and feeling helpless to solve their problems!!  Just be her best cheerleader, support person, and comforter she'll appreciate that as much as anything else you ever do in life.
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: bogart on November 04, 2015, 07:35:24 PM
I'm sorry you're dealing with this.  It does sound really hard.  My baby was pretty easy, but as I recall those first 3 months (in particular) were still a blur of craziness.

My basic suggestions are -- do whatever works to allow your baby to sleep, whenever he can/will.  Aside from the tips others have mentioned, the things that (often) seem to work are (a) walking with the baby in a carrier; (b) walking with the baby in a stroller; or (c) driving with the baby in a car.  Aggravatingly, all of these require an awake adult, but I wouldn't hesitate to enroll another adult (a grandparent) or to pay someone to pursue one of these activities while you and/or your wife catch up on your own sleep.  And of course you and her taking turns is another option, though only 50% as good in terms of the amount of sleep gain you (as a couple) get.

You've posted several times about how exhausting and difficult this new baby stuff is, and particularly your new baby (and that's fair enough, some babies really do require much more adult attention than do others), so basically my advice would be to throw whatever resources you need to at the problem (e.g., pay for help, drive around in a -- gasp! -- car to allow baby to get some restful sleep if that works for your baby) until it begins to dissipate.  Of course if you truly don't have those resources, that's a separate (and real) problem, but -- the values of long-term Mustachian planning notwithstanding, there are times when you just need to get through the next few days/weeks/months, and this is likely one of those.
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: okits on November 04, 2015, 10:08:50 PM
When DD was an infant I was in a parenting group and it was really common to talk about our babies' behaviour/development in the context of the Wonder Weeks (book, app, website - I never bought any of them but the gist is that babies have a rough timetable of when they go through developmental leaps, so there's a rough timetable of when their sleeping/eating/moods will be messed up and when they'll be normal or great.) For DD I found the schedule to be reasonably accurate.  Your DS may just be going through a rough phase that will pass within a few days/a week.

Just remember that he's really young and it's normal for him to want to be held a lot and fed frequently.  You're crazy-tired now but I promise you, in no time he's going to be big and independent and you're going to miss your snugly little baby.  Hang in there, and enjoy the good parts.
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: Mrs. Healthywealth on November 05, 2015, 07:28:05 AM
We have twins, they are 17 mos now.  At 4 mos we sleep trained, they were born at 37weeks, so we adjusted for that.  Sleep training, though hard b/c you let them cry for about 5-15 min before you comfort them, is sooooo worth it. The goal is to be consistent, which was harder for me to do vs my spouse. 

I have the PDF of the book we used, I can send it to your email address if you want.

After sleep training people were amazed with how much the girls slept...still at this age, they go down around 7pm, wake up around 7am, and at 930a take a 2 hr nap, followed by a short nap around 3p.  Prior to sleep training, the 1st 3 months, was very hard btw nursing, etc.  Also, have Asian background, so it's really fun when my mom-in-law would walk straight into our bedroom while I was prancing around nursing.  Yes, we asked her not to, but that doesn't seem to work :0

Also, Happiest Baby on the Block method worked many times--you can YouTube it to see how to do it. But, in the end some babies just need more TLC than others. One twin is pretty independent, the other loves snuggling and being held and will cry till she gets it.
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: TrMama on November 05, 2015, 11:02:28 AM
As far as the swing, we borrowed one from a friend, then in broke, then I tried to fix it and made it worse :( Ugh

Go get a swing. Go now. Get one that plugs into the wall so it can run forever. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. Go now.

My kids weren't anywhere near as challenging as your baby and I still relied on that swing every.single.day for the first 3 months.

The only other advice I have is to make sure your wife has her favorite adult beverage. When my youngest was colicky I used to pace the hall with her in one hand and a small glass of Baily's in the other.
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: jeromedawg on November 05, 2015, 11:23:32 AM
As far as the swing, we borrowed one from a friend, then in broke, then I tried to fix it and made it worse :( Ugh

Go get a swing. Go now. Get one that plugs into the wall so it can run forever. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. Go now.

My kids weren't anywhere near as challenging as your baby and I still relied on that swing every.single.day for the first 3 months.

The only other advice I have is to make sure your wife has her favorite adult beverage. When my youngest was colicky I used to pace the hall with her in one hand and a small glass of Baily's in the other.

LOL yea i think we'll need to find something. When the one we had *was* working it helped a little bit. Then again, there's no guarantees it'll help *not* considering how cranky and overtired he's been. We've put him in the swing when he's fussy and he just won't have it and will kick and scream until we take him out of it. I'll see if I can find one on Craigslist or what not maybe.

Haha my wife isn't much of a drinker (and wouldn't there be concerns of her consuming alcohol when she's BFing?). Anyway, she pretty much only drinks water these days.
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: NUF on November 05, 2015, 12:26:07 PM
Use the off button. Right net to the mute button
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: NUF on November 05, 2015, 12:53:11 PM
Gallows humor from the mother of a 7 month old who, in the last two weeks, popped two teeth, got a flu shot, learned to crawl, learned to pull up and now has a cold, aside.

It's an overwhelming urge to want to optimize our children's lives and in the beginning there's the added anxiety of legitimately not going that they're going to be OK because we have no context and no perspective.

What has helped me is to really use the pediatrician as my touchpoint for if something is actually going to screw up my kid. You'll go nuts trying to source good quality information from the internet. If your pediatrician is working with you guys on any health issues, then the problem for you to solve really is just everyone's comfort.

I had to admit a few months ago that my kid doesn't actually sleep poorly...he just doesn't sleep where and how we want him to. He sleeps great (or did previous to the last few weeks) as long as he's being held. So we did shifts for awhile. My husband would go to bed super early and I'd wake him up and hand him the baby around 4 so that I could get a much needed 3/4 hours of quality sleep. Now we're cosleeping. Sometimes we take the baby outside to get him to sleep, we let watch TV (only cspan2) to fall asleep. Two nights ago, we drove him around for an hour and then brought him in. My had a friend who had a colicky baby who bought noise cancelling headphones so that he could be there for his daughter but keep his blood pressure and sanity intact.

It does sound like you guys are a great team and working through this together. That's wonderful and you guys are doing great learning this new job of parenting.
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: Neustache on November 05, 2015, 01:03:26 PM
If your wife is really super tired, co-sleeping may not be safe. (NO one should be drinking or taking sleeping pills, etc, with a baby in the bed - no extra pillows, no fluffy bedding, etc.)  But it's how I got through my son's first year of life, and then we gradually cut it out (except at 3 he still comes to bed halfway through the night..we'll get rid of that habit eventually). 

Co-sleeping must be done safely, but if it is done safely, it is so wonderful.  Well, it was for me.  Your experience has been far rougher than what I went through with my kids (and I thought it was horrid) so maybe co-sleeping will work for you. 

I always slept with the kiddo on top of me, and then when older we'd transition to the kiddo next to me with my arm under their head and around the side. 
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: slschierer on November 05, 2015, 02:09:46 PM
My son had a very bad case of reflux.  In fact, it was diagnosed and medicated before he was 2 weeks old.  I can identify with a lot of what you're saying as it was our life as well.  It's my belief that your son may need his medication adjusted.  Your first post indicated that you believe it's taken care of, but I can tell you from experience that may be the issue.  Our son ate constantly (turns out that while feeding the reflux is calmed... until a little after they eat and it starts over again), and it meant that we had major issues with getting his medication dosage correct. 

The horrible crying about an hour after going to bed is also an indication that he may be having issues.  Even if he's not spitting up, he may be refluxing.  My son almost never spit up--he would swallow it back down.  We solved the sleeping issue at about 6 weeks by letting him sleep elevated in his car seat; however, in good conscience, I can't suggest that you do the same.  You can get a medical device for him that is essentially a wedge with straps that will hold him in place safely.  Your insurance should cover it.
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: La Bibliotecaria Feroz on November 05, 2015, 02:58:50 PM
A Rock N Play sleeper can be a godsend for a baby with reflux and is supposed to be much safer than a swing or bouncy seat for sleeping.

I agree that 2 months is too young for CIO. This will pass, I promise. BabyCenter has a pretty good baby sleep forum group that might be worth checking out. I remember they had a chart, which I have long since lost, that showed how long a baby of a certain age could be expected to stay awake before needing another nap. My sister always says "sleep begets sleep."

Good luck!
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: jeromedawg on November 05, 2015, 03:27:20 PM
A Rock N Play sleeper can be a godsend for a baby with reflux and is supposed to be much safer than a swing or bouncy seat for sleeping.

I agree that 2 months is too young for CIO. This will pass, I promise. BabyCenter has a pretty good baby sleep forum group that might be worth checking out. I remember they had a chart, which I have long since lost, that showed how long a baby of a certain age could be expected to stay awake before needing another nap. My sister always says "sleep begets sleep."

Good luck!

We do have the Rock N Play sleeper that we're borrowing. He was wailing in that which led us to put him the cosleeper crib. Nothing seems to help. Our doctor did recommend upping the dosage on the ranitidine so we're gonna try that and see. But she also was thinking that he might just be hungrier especially at night and possibly going through a growth spurt? He's slightly behind on weight so my wife will need to feed him more and will make night time feedings intentionally longer... and we'll probably need to supplement with more formula at night too.

Regarding the Rock N Play, my father in law is all super concerned cause he's saying how it's not a "natural" position and is messing up his back and posture blah blah blah. So my wife, naturally, got freaked out and has avoided putting him in it.
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: Freedom2016 on November 05, 2015, 06:03:17 PM
Gallows humor from the mother of a 7 month old who, in the last two weeks, popped two teeth, got a flu shot, learned to crawl, learned to pull up and now has a cold, aside.

Haha, I can relate. Our 1-year old popped 4 teeth at once (soooo drooly!), got 3 shots and a blood draw on the same day, started walking, and has a cold that is turning into a raspy cough. Good times :)

For the OP, lots of good input from others. I agree with the caution about CIO this early (IIRC 4 or 5 months is the minimum age recommended for that).

Get a swing. Get a swing. Get a swing. Get a swing. (Got it?) Also, FWIW I thought I read some cautions about the Rock 'n Play, either that babies get flat heads or something about their posture/alignment getting messed up. I stayed away from it for those reasons.
 
Do you have any family or friends nearby who can relieve you guys for an hour or two? Maybe you're even lucky enough to have a (secretly talented) Baby Whisperer somewhere in your circle? Who knew, but my sister-in-law can calm any baby down, within seconds. I still remember my firstborn son, who screamed bloody murder in my arms no matter what I tried, calmed right down when SIL took over.

Good luck and know that this too shall pass.
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: NUF on November 06, 2015, 07:18:12 AM
They can pop 4 teeth at once??? That's terrifying! I'm constantly amazed the human race has survived considering how long, painful and really poorly planned this whole infancy thing is. Not to mention toddlerhood when from what I understand, they are actively trying to destroy themselves.
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: Kitsune on November 06, 2015, 08:37:36 AM
They can pop 4 teeth at once??? That's terrifying! I'm constantly amazed the human race has survived considering how long, painful and really poorly planned this whole infancy thing is. Not to mention toddlerhood when from what I understand, they are actively trying to destroy themselves.

Ooooh, they can. My daughter popped all 4 molars in the same week. Ugh.

And the messed-up thing about parenthood? My kid is 18 months, right. I got through pregnancy (ack),childbirth (UGH OMG), and initial breastfeeding and formula issues (ARGH). Teeth are out, she communicates using words and is clear about what she wants and she can usually be reasoned with, she sleeps through the night so we're all getting enough sleep, she's fun, she has a good sense of humour and is actually funny to play with... sounds like we've gotten to the point where we're well-rested and parenthood is fun, right? So, logically, what're we doing? Planning on trying for another one in the spring and starting all over again. (And it's only next year for financial reasons: personally, I'd be up for getting knocked up again right now.)

Parenthood, man. Messes with the Logics.
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: NUF on November 06, 2015, 10:19:47 AM
I'm afraid that I may have hijacked the OP's thread with baby horror stories. Can we give him some examples of wonderful things to look forward to?

The first time they lean over and really stare at a book you're reading to them as if they understand what's going on.

The first time they raise both arms to be picked up by specifically you.

Every time you make them belly laugh/chortle with some silly game or sound.

When you have a conversation back and forth consisting of random yells.

My husband was extremely happy the first time our son reached down during a diaper change and found himself.

"Children are a huge source of joy but they turn every other source of joy to shit,"
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: CheapskateWife on November 06, 2015, 12:05:16 PM
Oh, the bouncy chair!!! It has been a few years so I forgot, but I'm old enough that those bouncy chairs with the vibrating foot pad was a new thing and sweet baby Jebus, you would have though the heavens opened up and poured rays of solid gold sunshine straight into my living room.  My little dudes loved it, and the mild vibrations helped with the burping/gassy feelings. 

Something like this little number...http://www.amazon.com/Fisher-Price-Adorable-Animals-Babys-Bouncer/dp/B0042D69UQ/ref=sr_1_1?s=baby-products&ie=UTF8&qid=1446836632&sr=1-1&keywords=bouncy+chairs

But if you get the one with the ipad attachment I am going to have to facepunch you.

Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: jeromedawg on November 06, 2015, 12:36:37 PM
Oh, the bouncy chair!!! It has been a few years so I forgot, but I'm old enough that those bouncy chairs with the vibrating foot pad was a new thing and sweet baby Jebus, you would have though the heavens opened up and poured rays of solid gold sunshine straight into my living room.  My little dudes loved it, and the mild vibrations helped with the burping/gassy feelings. 

Something like this little number...http://www.amazon.com/Fisher-Price-Adorable-Animals-Babys-Bouncer/dp/B0042D69UQ/ref=sr_1_1?s=baby-products&ie=UTF8&qid=1446836632&sr=1-1&keywords=bouncy+chairs

But if you get the one with the ipad attachment I am going to have to facepunch you.

lol.... ipad attachment.

We borrowed a bouncy chair from our friends as well and our little guy doesn't like it very much either. If he's fussy, it's either cause he's either hungry, needs to be burped, or is overtired and just won't sleep (this is the worst). We have a little play mat thing that he seems to enjoy. He did seem fine in the swing but only for max 15-20mins before he started whining. Very rarely is he OK being put into the bouncer. Oddly enough, he seems *most* comfy in the car seat and going out/driving around. But after hearing the recent story about the kid being put in a car seat and suffocating, I don't want to leave him strapped in if I don't have to.
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: StarBright on November 06, 2015, 01:32:42 PM
My second baby was a milk allergy reflux baby and while she never really slept through the night (still doesn't at age 2) we could get 2-3 hour stretches out of her if we swaddled her using a woombie and put her in the rock and play. We didn't rock her and did not play music but the combination of position and woombie would let her doze off and stay down for a bit.

Once the baby didn't need to nurse much at night my husband and I (both work full time) would take shifts ensuring that we each got at least a 4 hour uninterrupted stretch of sleep each night.

I don't know if you ever get up with your wife while she's nursing - but your post made me remember that in the first couple of months with both of my babies my husband would get up and get me a snack and water in the middle of the night. It made me feel so supported and like we were such a team.

Good luck! and it will get better. You are in the hardest patch right now.

Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: TomTX on November 08, 2015, 08:04:20 PM
Hang on in there! 2 months is still very small. I know it's not very mustachian to throw money at the problem but maybe invest in one of those crib thingies that is on an incline?

Used a chunk of 2x4 to raise one end of the crib, is that what you mean?
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: csprof on November 08, 2015, 10:31:33 PM
(a)  If the reflux continues, you might try the full-on elimination diet:  http://www.askdrsears.com/topics/feeding-eating/feeding-infants-toddlers/food-allergies/elimination-diet

We did this.  It sucked.  But after a week of it, our daughter's food allergy-related symptoms were 100% gone.  (For us, this was easy to diagnose, as it involved blood coming out of places that blood is not supposed to come out of.  Reflux and other somewhat-more-nebulous things are a bit harder.)  It turns out, though, that it sucked a lot less than having a sick and screaming child.  Over the course of about two years, we were able to re-introduce everything, though we had a few setbacks.  Soy and dairy stayed out almost the whole period, and there was that unfortunate accidental test of almonds thanks to a careless mother-in-law (almonds, it turns out, were one of our true positives on the allergies).

(b)  CIO -- with appropriate cautioning of your child beforehand, etc., -- is effective, and not at all inhumane.  Letting your child develop poor sleep habits *is* inhumane.  But it's true that you don't want to do it before 5mo.

IIRC, things start to get better around 3 months for many kids.  That time was very hazy.  It was, in fact, quite horrible.  But it gets better soon.  Good luck!
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: Kitsune on November 09, 2015, 06:34:49 AM

(b)  CIO -- with appropriate cautioning of your child beforehand, etc., -- is effective, and not at all inhumane.  Letting your child develop poor sleep habits *is* inhumane.  But it's true that you don't want to do it before 5mo.


We did what might be referred to as CIO-by-logistics when our daughter was 13 months old (co-sleeping prior to that, for parental survival). She moved to her own bed, in her own room, which was immediately next to ours. We did NOT use a baby monitor, but left both doors open. Logic: if she was fussing and getting herself back to sleep, she didn't wake us up (not loud enough), and she learned to put herself back to sleep (necessary life skills!). If she was actually unhappy and needed us, she'd cry, and that was louder, and then we'd hear her and obviously go.

Result: within a week, she was reliably sleeping through the night. Even now, at 18 months, there's the occasional night where she'll wake up and fuss a bit at 2am and get herself back to sleep within a minute or two. She just needs to be given the opportunity to do it. (And then there's one night every month or so where she wakes up in a FIT in the middle of the night and everyone is up for an hour, but that's children/teething/illness/what did you expect, right?)
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: elaine amj on November 09, 2015, 11:13:42 AM
The whole baby alignment/bad baby positioning thing sounds so crazy now to me. I googled to find out what a Rock and Play is - looks like the baby will be in the same positioning as bouncy chairs/carseats. Can't imagine why that is not a "natural position" (Imagine how squished up baby was in the womb! Now THAT was an unnatural position).

My SIL went to extreme lengths to buy an "ergonomic" baby carrier that spread her baby's hips "naturally". She absolutely would not consider simple cloth wraps.

I get it though - when I was a new parent, I was nervous about all those things too.

We had a bouncy hammock for my own kids (traditional where I grew up).
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_nKBxk6TAJ1M/SDrQaUsySpI/AAAAAAAAAC0/VC1lA0ukyGQ/s320/sunflower.jpg)

However, I was in Canada and I just could not get out of my head some stray comment that it was "unnatural" for a baby not to sleep on a flat surface. Although it was my son's preferred place to sleep, I would move him out as soon as he fell asleep to the more "natural" bassinet next to my bed. And as far as possible, I would try to get him to go to sleep in the bassinet. Looking back, it seems rather ridiculous. I should have just left him to sleep where he felt most comfortable. The hammock sling hugged him snugly and supported him well. 

Anyway, you are absolutely normal new parents dealing with a new baby you love intensely who is being very difficult to manage. Try not to get too caught up in parenting "rules" - there are millions of them and like a PP pointed out, they often contradict each other. I know it's much easier said than done. Hang in there - one day, you'll be the sage parent doling out advice to new parents :) Just shower that baby with love (babies are very, very forgiving) and be kind to each other.
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: junglejim83 on November 09, 2015, 12:48:03 PM
Does your wife have a large portion of any one thing in her diet?  Maybe the baby is allergic to something in your wife's diet, dairy, wheat, yeast etc?

My son was breast feeding and had pretty bad reflux.  In addition, what we thought was baby acne seemed to be getting worse and worse over a period of a few weeks.  It turns out it was hives.  The doctor couldn't ID the source but she said try removing some things from my wife's diet.  When my wife cut dairy the hives went away in a couple days and the reflux reduced significantly. 

Any time my wife would have a little dairy his issues would reappear.   We have found some non-dairy alternatives, whether it is goat cheese, almond milk or coconut milk ice cream, so she doesn't miss the dairy much. 

As far as the sleep goes - he is 9 months old and we are still trying to figure it out.  We got a box of 200 memory foam ear plugs and take turns with night duty.
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: csprof on November 14, 2015, 09:44:56 AM

(b)  CIO -- with appropriate cautioning of your child beforehand, etc., -- is effective, and not at all inhumane.  Letting your child develop poor sleep habits *is* inhumane.  But it's true that you don't want to do it before 5mo.


We did what might be referred to as CIO-by-logistics when our daughter was 13 months old (co-sleeping prior to that, for parental survival). She moved to her own bed, in her own room, which was immediately next to ours. We did NOT use a baby monitor, but left both doors open. Logic: if she was fussing and getting herself back to sleep, she didn't wake us up (not loud enough), and she learned to put herself back to sleep (necessary life skills!). If she was actually unhappy and needed us, she'd cry, and that was louder, and then we'd hear her and obviously go.

Result: within a week, she was reliably sleeping through the night. Even now, at 18 months, there's the occasional night where she'll wake up and fuss a bit at 2am and get herself back to sleep within a minute or two. She just needs to be given the opportunity to do it. (And then there's one night every month or so where she wakes up in a FIT in the middle of the night and everyone is up for an hour, but that's children/teething/illness/what did you expect, right?)

Our experience was similar.  As she got older, there have been a few flat-out screaming-fests that we gritted our teeth through.  The pattern we'd see was something like:  (1)  A legitimate thing would occur that required us to go help her at night (illness, teething, actual scary dream, something).  That would go on for a few nights, and a pattern would start to form;  (2)  The underlying cause of the awakening would go away;  (3)  The demand for mommy or daddy would not go away, and the former reason would now turn into an excuse to get us in there;  (4) we'd slowly catch on and realize what was happening;  (5)  one night of CIO - ugh, awful;  (6)  back to normal sleep patterns - yay!

The occasional fits - it happens.  She gets hugs and as much time is needed.  (Said for others, because you and I obviously see it the same way):  CIO isn't about denying kids attention when they need it, it's about teaching them to learn to put themselves to sleep when nothing's wrong.  The hardest part is deciding which situation you're in.  We've tended to err on the side of helping her to sleep if we're not certain, and I don't regret that.  She sleeps well most of the time.
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: obstinate on November 14, 2015, 11:02:41 AM
Sleep can be bad at two months. It's perfectly normal. Most people don't start sleep training until 5 mos at the earliest. It's not likely to take at this age.

We did do unmitigated extinction (cry it out with no comforting) around 5 1/2 months, and it seems to have worked great for us.

Hang in there for a couple more months. You'll make it.
Title: Re: Babies, sleep-training, co-sleeping, comfort-nursing, cry-it-out, asdf!@#!!!
Post by: purple monkey on November 14, 2015, 01:47:57 PM
We ended up co-sleeping with comfort nursing. That's what worked for us and we'll do it again with the next one. People break it a lot earlier than we are - we're approaching 2 and she still nurses, or hangs out on the boob, to sleep. But we've all gotten plenty of sleep since two weeks in, and that's definitely made me a more capable parent.

+1
And sleep is very sweet with them latched.