Author Topic: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD  (Read 14321 times)

ncornilsen

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #50 on: December 28, 2017, 10:33:33 AM »
I'd have a really hard time not utilizing my concealed carry weapon to take care of those two animals then and there.  Legality be damned, my life was in danger.

JLee

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #51 on: December 28, 2017, 10:35:37 AM »
I'd have a really hard time not utilizing my concealed carry weapon to take care of those two animals then and there.  Legality be damned, my life was in danger.

Threat of death or serious bodily injury would deem that action legal, so no need for damning legality. Regardless, the OP is in New York and there are basically no carry permits here.

BigHaus89

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #52 on: December 28, 2017, 11:46:08 AM »
They make pepper spray for dogs. That should be sufficient to deter any overly excited or attacking dogs.

Not gonna touch the other off-topic issues that others have brought up here.

partgypsy

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #53 on: December 28, 2017, 12:58:00 PM »
I think like with any dog, dogs vary. Pit bulls vary. I had a neighbor who adopted 2 pit mixes. the first pit was really sweet, almost submissive dog. I didn't have any concerns with it. They adopted a 2nd pit bull. This one, well kept initiating fights with both their first dog, as well as neighborhood dogs or any dog it interacted with. It was only after the 2nd dog went after and mauled and seriously injured their first dog, that they realized "socializing" wasn't working and they would have to get rid of the dog. Their plan was to rehome to a house that didn't have another dog. To me that doesn't solve the problem of this dog going after anything it's same size or smaller.

Some people who adopt pit bulls get sweet devoted pets. But also nightmare stories. I know 3 people in my town whose pet cat was killed by roaming pitbulls. Any dog can kill a cat. But I think pitbulls in general have strong prey drives, have strong jaws, and in these situations ignore and are not deterred by people when they are focused on an attack. this is simply my opinion from personal experience. 
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 01:19:15 PM by partgypsy »

2Birds1Stone

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #54 on: December 28, 2017, 01:27:55 PM »
I know 3 people in my town whose pet cat was killed by roaming pitbulls. Any dog can kill a cat. But I think pitbulls in general have strong prey drives, have strong jaws, and in these situations ignore and are not deterred by people when they are focused on an attack. this is simply my opinion from personal experience.

Gosh, if we applied the same sort of logic to certain demographics of humans, everyone on the internet would lose their shit.

Same thing for the person working in ER upthread claiming that most dog bites were indeed pitbulls.

Why are we allowing racism (breedism?) against certain dogs, yet it's such a no no when it comes to other species.

JLee

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #55 on: December 28, 2017, 01:32:20 PM »
I know 3 people in my town whose pet cat was killed by roaming pitbulls. Any dog can kill a cat. But I think pitbulls in general have strong prey drives, have strong jaws, and in these situations ignore and are not deterred by people when they are focused on an attack. this is simply my opinion from personal experience.

Gosh, if we applied the same sort of logic to certain demographics of humans, everyone on the internet would lose their shit.

Same thing for the person working in ER upthread claiming that most dog bites were indeed pitbulls.

Why are we allowing racism (breedism?) against certain dogs, yet it's such a no no when it comes to other species.

I'm not sure you are making any sense.  We have statistics for both of these topics.

https://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-statistics-fatalities-2016.php

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-09-29/race-and-homicide-in-america-by-the-numbers

partgypsy

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #56 on: December 28, 2017, 01:59:07 PM »
I know 3 people in my town whose pet cat was killed by roaming pitbulls. Any dog can kill a cat. But I think pitbulls in general have strong prey drives, have strong jaws, and in these situations ignore and are not deterred by people when they are focused on an attack. this is simply my opinion from personal experience.

Gosh, if we applied the same sort of logic to certain demographics of humans, everyone on the internet would lose their shit.

Same thing for the person working in ER upthread claiming that most dog bites were indeed pitbulls.

Why are we allowing racism (breedism?) against certain dogs, yet it's such a no no when it comes to other species.

I'm not sure you are making any sense.  We have statistics for both of these topics.

https://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-statistics-fatalities-2016.php

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-09-29/race-and-homicide-in-america-by-the-numbers
Here's Wikipedia. There are over 150 different dog breeds, some much more popular than pitbulls. Yet pitbulls make up the majority of dog attacks and deaths (estimated 70%). Can someone explain to me why people who defend pit bulls bring up race so often? I honestly find that really weird. It's like if someone argues that people shouldn't own Burmese pythons because they can grow to 15 feet and strangle people, people say, well what about black people? HUH?
ps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_States

lizzzi

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #57 on: December 28, 2017, 02:27:29 PM »
OP here. I just went to our local outdoors outfitting company and got  a 10% oleoresin capsicum pepper spray. (Same strength the police use.) It has a ring, so I can suspend it from a lanyard around my neck. Should be easy enough to access no matter what I'm wearing when I'm  outside with my dog. My only quibble is that it's a very small amount--11 grams or around one-third of an ounce. Supposedly gives six, one-second shots. I'll look for something bigger, but in the meantime, I'm covered. It shoots a ballistic stream, which is supposed to reduce wind blow back.

So the plan: Be aware of surroundings at all times, and have escape route in mind.  In case of large dogs approaching off-leash, pick up Bandit immediately and try to get into shelter. Stay calm, quiet, don't do anything either aggressive or prey-like-- if attacked, hold Bandit as high as possible while shielding him with my body, and with free hand, pepper spray the attack dogs.

The police are just not interested in what happened. My dog and I were not injured, nobody can identify the owners of the strays or where they came from, and I guess the case is closed. So I'll take care of myself and my dog as best as I can. No one has seen the stray pitts since that afternoon on Christmas Eve.

And I'm still planning on carrying some kind of stick as a last option for defense. My dog and I are out walking several times every day, and while we're not far from civilization, the attack did occur right in front of my building. So it could happen anywhere.

Miss Piggy

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #58 on: December 28, 2017, 02:36:55 PM »
OP here. I just went to our local outdoors outfitting company and got  a 10% oleoresin capsicum pepper spray. (Same strength the police use.) It has a ring, so I can suspend it from a lanyard around my neck.

You probably thought about this already, but if you use a lanyard, I suggest a retractable end/attachment. That way, you can pull the pepper spray farther away from you to aim/point it at your target.

Cromacster

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #59 on: December 28, 2017, 03:07:53 PM »
I know 3 people in my town whose pet cat was killed by roaming pitbulls. Any dog can kill a cat. But I think pitbulls in general have strong prey drives, have strong jaws, and in these situations ignore and are not deterred by people when they are focused on an attack. this is simply my opinion from personal experience.

Gosh, if we applied the same sort of logic to certain demographics of humans, everyone on the internet would lose their shit.

Same thing for the person working in ER upthread claiming that most dog bites were indeed pitbulls.

Why are we allowing racism (breedism?) against certain dogs, yet it's such a no no when it comes to other species.

I'm not sure you are making any sense.  We have statistics for both of these topics.

https://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-statistics-fatalities-2016.php

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-09-29/race-and-homicide-in-america-by-the-numbers
Here's Wikipedia. There are over 150 different dog breeds, some much more popular than pitbulls. Yet pitbulls make up the majority of dog attacks and deaths (estimated 70%). Can someone explain to me why people who defend pit bulls bring up race so often? I honestly find that really weird. It's like if someone argues that people shouldn't own Burmese pythons because they can grow to 15 feet and strangle people, people say, well what about black people? HUH?
ps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_States

I think the racism/breedism thing is a stretch, they're dogs/animals, not people.

It also comes down to the responsibility of the owner.  I don't really care about breed, all dogs are capable of biting and the owners should be aware of this.  I don't think there should be breed bans.  I wish there were stricter regulations on breeding as most breeders don't give a damn, but even more regulation wouldn't help.  Bad breeding has ruined many dogs.  Pugs can't breathe and their eyes fall out.  German Shepherds and Labs hips fall off.  And pit bulls are way too high drive with poor impulse control (this is great if you want to kill coyotes or rats, not so great it you have a pet cat).

The real solution would be to put the owners more responsible.  Civil charges already happen, but I feel dog issues should be criminally responsible as well.  Dog bites someone human should be charged with assault or something thereabouts.  If a dog kills someone human should be charged with manslaughter and the dog put down.  It could potentially be a really shitty situation for the owner.  I feel this is the only way people would get serious about which dogs they own and how they maintain them.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 03:09:47 PM by Cromacster »

TexasRunner

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #60 on: December 28, 2017, 03:34:03 PM »
Posting to follow (someone fix the notify button)

Gin1984

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #61 on: December 28, 2017, 04:00:13 PM »
I know 3 people in my town whose pet cat was killed by roaming pitbulls. Any dog can kill a cat. But I think pitbulls in general have strong prey drives, have strong jaws, and in these situations ignore and are not deterred by people when they are focused on an attack. this is simply my opinion from personal experience.

Gosh, if we applied the same sort of logic to certain demographics of humans, everyone on the internet would lose their shit.

Same thing for the person working in ER upthread claiming that most dog bites were indeed pitbulls.

Why are we allowing racism (breedism?) against certain dogs, yet it's such a no no when it comes to other species.

I'm not sure you are making any sense.  We have statistics for both of these topics.

https://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-statistics-fatalities-2016.php

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-09-29/race-and-homicide-in-america-by-the-numbers
Here's Wikipedia. There are over 150 different dog breeds, some much more popular than pitbulls. Yet pitbulls make up the majority of dog attacks and deaths (estimated 70%). Can someone explain to me why people who defend pit bulls bring up race so often? I honestly find that really weird. It's like if someone argues that people shouldn't own Burmese pythons because they can grow to 15 feet and strangle people, people say, well what about black people? HUH?
ps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_States
If wiki says that, it should be corrected because it is completely false.  See this link: https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/07/pit-bull-ban-aggressive-dog-breed-bronwen-dickey/ which includes a link to a study by the American Veterinary Association.  People misidentifying pits and when you actually look at the breed, not people's often incorrect identification, pits are not any more dangerous than any other large dog.

doneby35

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #62 on: December 28, 2017, 04:37:41 PM »
All dogs bite, with chihuahuas topping the list, larger dogs have a stronger bite, that's all, therefore people shouldn't just start hating on pit bulls. Pit bulls are very loving, the ones that have been raised incorrectly or abused or trained to be aggressive are a product of their owners, just like a lot of children who end up becoming criminals.

Also, humans are animals too, so when you immediately start yelling "put them down" when it comes to dogs, you should be yelling the same when it comes to humans, because in no way humans are special and other animal species are not.

Miss Piggy

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #63 on: December 28, 2017, 06:16:32 PM »
Perhaps pit bulls should be added to the list of socially unacceptable dinner party conversation topics, along with sex, religion, and politics (and maybe homeschooling, based another thread). Like politics, it seems that most people have their minds made up about pit bulls and cannot be swayed. I know that's true for me.

BussoV6

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #64 on: December 29, 2017, 05:16:14 AM »
When I was a teenager and regularly walking dogs, I carried an electric cattle prod. It was strong enough to temporarily put a big dog on the ground. Very seldom that an aggressive dog came back for a second dose. One shock sent them meekly on their way.

Wise Virgin

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #65 on: December 29, 2017, 07:17:16 AM »
Perhaps pit bulls should be added to the list of socially unacceptable dinner party conversation topics, along with sex, religion, and politics (and maybe homeschooling, based another thread). Like politics, it seems that most people have their minds made up about pit bulls and cannot be swayed. I know that's true for me.
Evidence. Evidence sways people's minds. As more and more people have frightening or fatal encounters with pit bulls, more minds get swayed.

I don't go to dinner parties because nothing interesting ever gets discussed.

Cromacster

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #66 on: December 29, 2017, 08:13:03 AM »
All dogs bite, with chihuahuas topping the list, larger dogs have a stronger bite, that's all, therefore people shouldn't just start hating on pit bulls. Pit bulls are very loving, the ones that have been raised incorrectly or abused or trained to be aggressive are a product of their owners, just like a lot of children who end up becoming criminals.

Also, humans are animals too, so when you immediately start yelling "put them down" when it comes to dogs, you should be yelling the same when it comes to humans, because in no way humans are special and other animal species are not.

I don't really even know where to start here.  While the nurture side of the argument does play a big role, dogs are genetically predisposed to certain behaviors due to how they have been bred.  That's why herding dogs are naturally protective, why terriers like to chase rats and other animals, why labs are loyal.  The issues have arose because people want to own these dogs for vanity.
 Dogs bred for chasing and killing animals are going to have problems sitting in a house all day with nothing to do.  So you have all these people with animals as pets that would bred to hunt other animals.  Sure, the traits could be bred out, but that opens a whole other can of worms as to breeding practices and ethics.

Humans are definitely special.  That's why I am typing here and fido is not.

partgypsy

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #67 on: December 29, 2017, 08:55:27 AM »
Dogs have been for generations and generations bred for certain traits and behaviors. It's not just pitbulls but other dogs, such as high energy border collies, can get neurotic and stressed if all they are doing is sitting in a house being a pet with no outlet to their predispositions. Originally bull terriers were bred to have high jaw strength, and also tenacity (to hang onto the bull and not give up). In addition, many people were drawn to have a pitbull because they see that dog as "tough". And some people go further and bred and trained bitpulls to either be hyper protective guard dogs, and also for dog fights. In the town over, people's large pet dogs were disappearing (labs, retrievers). And the evidence suggested these poor pet dogs were used to bait and train pit bulls. Those other pets did not have the same fight drive and so the dog would get practice but the pitbull wouldn't get too injured. You have this unfortunate convergence, of these dogs bred for physical traits that are more dangerous, and also a bunch of irresponsible pet owners who have informally bred and "trained" these pits in a way that is not conducive for being tame pets. It is NOT the dog's fault, they are just as much a victim. But I live in the south and I've seen it. I'm not saying that a breed ban is the answer. But I've seen very responsible dog owners who still couldn't train that prey/attack drive out of the dog.
Here's from my state. Over 150 dogs rescued from dog fighting. Where do these dogs end up? In local rescue shelters.
http://www.jdnews.com/news/20161207/156-dogs-rescued-10-arrested-in-dog-fighting-case
« Last Edit: December 29, 2017, 09:33:30 AM by partgypsy »

lizzzi

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #68 on: December 29, 2017, 09:02:25 AM »
OP here. It seems to me this thread is going off-topic. Rather than the pros and cons of pit bulls (like religion or politics--never going to be consensus), I'd like to see anecdotes from people who have been attacked by dogs (or other animals--bears, coyotes, whatever.) How did you save yourself?  If you were out with your pet, could you save your pet? Do you have any recommendations other than what we've seen upthread? I'd like to see practical ideas for those of us who are outside all the time walking our pet dogs.

partgypsy

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #69 on: December 29, 2017, 09:25:12 AM »
I am very familiar and comfortable with dogs. When I was living in Chicago walking to work, it appears that someone's guard dog (Doberman) got out of it's yard. I happen to be walking up the sidewalk and it popped up. As soon as I approached it tensed, and started that low growling. As soon as I turned to walk across the street, it started to go after me.  So I turned and made myself look big and talked in a big low voice saying things like "No!" and "stay". I also held my messenger bag in front of my body, in case it jumped on me. I was able to slowly back away from it to make it to the other side of the street, where it lost interest (it was territorial), but literally every time I turned it would go for me. So for me the main thing was, don't turn away, don't run. Try to deter an attack (like what you did). Stay upright. If the worse happens, protect your face and neck.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2017, 10:09:44 AM by partgypsy »

GuitarStv

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #70 on: December 29, 2017, 09:25:42 AM »
I was walking my small beagle on the sidewalk on her leash a few years ago and she was attacked by an off-leash pitbull.  I heard a snarl and then saw it lunging at my dog.  In managed to rip a piece of her ear in the first pass.  It turned, lunged again and I hauled off and kicked it in the face as hard as I could.  It lunged again, and I kicked it as hard as I could in the ribs . . . lifting it off the ground.  It was bleeding and yelping at this point, but still circling around me attempting to get at my dog.

Eventually the owner came out of his house and got control of his animal, then yelled at me for kicking it.  I took my dog home, got her head to stop bleeding, took her to the vet, and called animal control.  The animal control guy came out to our house, took my statement, then went to the guy's house.  He confirmed what I suspected, that this was indeed a pitbull (illegally owned as they are banned in Toronto).

I like dogs and have been around them my whole life.  When I lived up north one of my friends kept sled dogs, and I've got some experience dealing with aggressive dogs and breaking up fights between them.  Dog fights happen very fast.  You will not have time to decide what to do when they happen, you have to have a plan already formed for how to deal with them.  Do not bend down and use your hands.  Do not shriek or scream (it just excites the dogs more).    It's best if you have a long stick, walking cane, ski pole, or similar . . . but nobody's going to arm themselves every time they have to take a walk.  You have to try to be very vigilant and aware of potential danger.  You also have to be mentally prepared to act in a violent manner (which is very difficult).  If a dog jumps up on you, snapping - knee it or kick it as hard as you can.

It is possible to train and socialize a pitbull so that it's not a danger to anyone.  My experience though (from above and several other encounters) is that many of the people who want to own this breed do not take the time to do this.  Pitbulls are a powerful and naturally aggressive breed.  When they are not properly trained/socialized they are extremely dangerous.  The odds are that a random pitbull you encounter in the street is much less likely to have been properly trained and socialized than say a lab, or a golden retriever.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2017, 09:40:00 AM by GuitarStv »

Cromacster

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #71 on: December 29, 2017, 09:33:53 AM »
OP here. It seems to me this thread is going off-topic. Rather than the pros and cons of pit bulls (like religion or politics--never going to be consensus), I'd like to see anecdotes from people who have been attacked by dogs (or other animals--bears, coyotes, whatever.) How did you save yourself?  If you were out with your pet, could you save your pet? Do you have any recommendations other than what we've seen upthread? I'd like to see practical ideas for those of us who are outside all the time walking our pet dogs.

Honestly, most dogs would leave/back off if you stood your ground and yelled at them.  This is the only strategy I've personally had to use.  Just find your inner grizzly bear, stand tall, shout No or something of the sort, loudly and sternly.

If it's a problem area carrying a kuboton or small baton isn't a bad idea.  In some areas these are "illegal", keys on a lanyard would work too.  Or you could make a steel ball monkey fist as a key chain.  Steel toed boots are another item that can come in handy.

Pepper spray has been covered, but another item that can come in handy is an air horn.  It'd be loud for you and your dog too, but along with your inner grizzly bear it should at least give them enough pause for you use your kuboton, keys, monkey fist.



Gin1984

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #72 on: December 29, 2017, 09:46:16 AM »
OP here. It seems to me this thread is going off-topic. Rather than the pros and cons of pit bulls (like religion or politics--never going to be consensus), I'd like to see anecdotes from people who have been attacked by dogs (or other animals--bears, coyotes, whatever.) How did you save yourself?  If you were out with your pet, could you save your pet? Do you have any recommendations other than what we've seen upthread? I'd like to see practical ideas for those of us who are outside all the time walking our pet dogs.
If you can keep your balance, kneeing a dog when they jump up can get the to not jump on you, protecting your face and your dog (if you are holding her/him up).  I've done it with a small dog and I'm only 5'2.  But as others and I have also mentioned, the best is using your voice.  A stern voice works with many animals.  I had a run away dog which tried to establish dominance by knocking me down.  Staying upright and being stern (not yelling) allowed me to control it while my husband called animal control.

oldladystache

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #73 on: December 29, 2017, 09:48:46 AM »
I was walking my 50 pound lab mix on leash when a pit bull came running at her from a distance. She turned and tried to run away as the pit grabbed her by the throat. I grabbed the pit's tail and pulled. I held on for a minute as the dog's owner came running.

He threw himself on his dog and tried to pry its jaw open. The dog had its jaws locked and here was no way the man could get it to unlock. He told me to find a stick to pry it open. I pulled a small branch off a tree and he tried to use it to pry but it didn't help. After maybe five minutes the dog finally let go.

Fortunately he'd only had the loose skin on the side of my dog's neck. If he'd had her by the throat she'd have been killed.

The animal control people took my report but they didn't care to do anything about it.

Zamboni

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #74 on: December 29, 2017, 11:31:50 AM »
Here's from my state. Over 150 dogs rescued from dog fighting. Where do these dogs end up? In local rescue shelters.
http://www.jdnews.com/news/20161207/156-dogs-rescued-10-arrested-in-dog-fighting-case

Wow, I'm in the same state. This actually doesn't surprise me . . . when we adopted our dog 1.5 years ago, we had to visit the county shelter FOUR different times to find a dog that wasn't a) a pit breed, b) very big (wanted 60 lbs or less) or c) a puppy. Thankfully I had told the children about my dog attack experience; they understood that I had veto power and didn't whine or complain, I was just surprised how many times I had to use it! I did notice that the variety of breeds there seemed to increase over the couple of months that we visited. The first visit, every single dog except one extremely ancient sled dog (who did get adopted by someone else) and one large hound nursing a litter were pits . . . based upon their website, it seemed like the dogs of a bunch of other breeds had been put into foster care instead of staying at the shelter, and now I know why . . .

I had multiple unleashed bigger dogs come after me when I had a maltese years ago. Picking him up, standing ground facing the dogs, and yelling "no" was all I ever managed. It worked, although one tried to jump up on me (I'm very tall and sturdy) and I put up my knee, which worked, but none of the other dogs were hell bent on destruction. As someone upthread said, back away, don't turn. A couple of times I'm had to tell off owners . . . one lady I had to tell off TWICE in the same day. All of this being said, I twice have had neighbors with dogs who would have full out attacked me or anyone else no matter what we did if they got loose. I think having your defense spray is a good idea.

Wise Virgin

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #75 on: December 29, 2017, 12:43:55 PM »
I think the reason OP is not getting as much advice as anticipated about what to do is that there isn't much that works against pit bulls, really - especially if you are short, female, elderly, or a child. I used to see free-running pits when I visited a certain neighborhood and have often thought I would go up onto a car to make myself less accessible and gain leverage for a good kick. And I always look for the other one, they always seem to bring another dog along.

In my city this year, an elderly woman was walking her small dog in a good neighborhood. Pit bull attack, little dog and old lady both dead. So it might be as much as your life is worth to save your little dog by picking it up. Just sayin'.

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #76 on: December 29, 2017, 01:58:52 PM »
I've had the experience of two off leash dogs attacking my dog while out walking. I too picked him up (6kg) as they couldn't jump very high. I guess I wasn't ever worried about myself - I think the attacking dog if it's focused on your dog is unlikely to bite you unless you intervene. If I was you I'd just do exactly the same next time as it doesn't sound like the dogs were interested in you at all.

If a dog made eye contact with me as it was running up, different story. I think I'd use my voice "BACK OFF!" and my feet to physically block the dogs. Two on one with no back up help would be an almost impossible situation though. Hitting with a stick might help but in that excited state they are unlikely to feel it. You know what might be good - a rape alarm. It will shock the dog and other people might come help? During self defence training we were taught to shout 'fire' not 'rape' as more people would come, so that's an option too.

About the story about the dog not letting go above - it is the case with bully breeds, they were bred to hold on to bulls and not let go. You can kick them in the genitals, it sometimes works, but what always works is a finger up the anus :)

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #77 on: December 29, 2017, 03:09:59 PM »
In my city this year, an elderly woman was walking her small dog in a good neighborhood. Pit bull attack, little dog and old lady both dead. So it might be as much as your life is worth to save your little dog by picking it up. Just sayin'.
Slightly different context here in the UK as pitbulls are a banned breed - there are some still around but not many and not in this part of the countryside.  As someone who walks a dog on public footpaths through grazing fields a more likely danger is a herd of cattle coming after the dog.  In that case the advice is to let the dog off the lead and let it outrun the cattle who will go after the dog and leave the human alone. 

If your dog is fast might letting it off the lead to run away, or perhaps if it is small letting it hide under a car or in another small space be an option against a pitbull?  Undesirable for all sorts of reasons (traffic, dog getting lost, the pitbulls catching it, etc.) but still better than the human getting hurt or killed, I think.

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #78 on: December 29, 2017, 08:09:00 PM »

Pepper spray has been covered, but another item that can come in handy is an air horn.  It'd be loud for you and your dog too, but along with your inner grizzly bear it should at least give them enough pause for you use your kuboton, keys, monkey fist.

*laugh*  I just have to add this bit.  I once went backpacking in grizzly territory and did get an air-horn.  Never encountered a bear, but I nearly scared the pee out of myself when I accidentally discharged it trying to take off my backpack. 

But unless someone with direct experience says otherwise, I have never heard air-horns being recommended against dogs.  I would be worried that startling them with noise might make an attack worse.

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #79 on: December 30, 2017, 08:01:33 AM »
It depends on the state of the dog.  If it's actively attacking, an air horn (or any loud noise, screaming/yelling) is useless and liable to make things worse.  If the dog has not yet started to attack (growling, approaching slowly, eyeing you) then it's possible to startle the dog into a different course of behaviours and pre-empt an attack.

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #80 on: December 30, 2017, 10:19:11 AM »
Quote
ventually the owner came out of his house and got control of his animal, then yelled at me for kicking it.  I took my dog home, got her head to stop bleeding, took her to the vet, and called animal control.  The animal control guy came out to our house, took my statement, then went to the guy's house.  He confirmed what I suspected, that this was indeed a pitbull (illegally owned as they are banned in Toronto).

I think the owners of Pit Bulls may fit into certain categories too.  Ever see these cartoons showing how dogs and their owners are alike?  There's many folks out there that don't care about being fair to others.  They only care about their own.  The dogs are one of their own.

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #81 on: December 30, 2017, 11:19:17 AM »
Quote
ventually the owner came out of his house and got control of his animal, then yelled at me for kicking it.  I took my dog home, got her head to stop bleeding, took her to the vet, and called animal control.  The animal control guy came out to our house, took my statement, then went to the guy's house.  He confirmed what I suspected, that this was indeed a pitbull (illegally owned as they are banned in Toronto).

I think the owners of Pit Bulls may fit into certain categories too.  Ever see these cartoons showing how dogs and their owners are alike?  There's many folks out there that don't care about being fair to others.  They only care about their own.  The dogs are one of their own.


I mentioned this earlier, but large aggressive dogs are often desired (and owned) by a particular type of person.
http://blog.dogsbite.org/2008/01/pit-bull-owners-more-likely-to-be.html

Of course, it's not universally true that this is the case, but it's true often enough that you should be leery of any pitbull that you meet while walking around.  The same is simply not the case for other common breeds of dog (labs, golden retrievers, beagles, etc.) that you might run into.

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #82 on: January 02, 2018, 07:08:48 AM »
Quote
ventually the owner came out of his house and got control of his animal, then yelled at me for kicking it.  I took my dog home, got her head to stop bleeding, took her to the vet, and called animal control.  The animal control guy came out to our house, took my statement, then went to the guy's house.  He confirmed what I suspected, that this was indeed a pitbull (illegally owned as they are banned in Toronto).

I think the owners of Pit Bulls may fit into certain categories too.  Ever see these cartoons showing how dogs and their owners are alike?  There's many folks out there that don't care about being fair to others.  They only care about their own.  The dogs are one of their own.

I mentioned this earlier, but large aggressive dogs are often desired (and owned) by a particular type of person.
http://blog.dogsbite.org/2008/01/pit-bull-owners-more-likely-to-be.html

Of course, it's not universally true that this is the case, but it's true often enough that you should be leery of any pitbull that you meet while walking around.  The same is simply not the case for other common breeds of dog (labs, golden retrievers, beagles, etc.) that you might run into.

The pitbull owners I know are highly educated women (not criminals) and other owners I tend to see are women (guess I can't confirm if they are/aren't criminals).  That's probably due to my geographic location though.

Michael Che summed it up pretty well.

Michael Che on Pitbulls

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #83 on: January 02, 2018, 07:29:04 AM »

Pepper spray has been covered, but another item that can come in handy is an air horn.  It'd be loud for you and your dog too, but along with your inner grizzly bear it should at least give them enough pause for you use your kuboton, keys, monkey fist.

*laugh*  I just have to add this bit.  I once went backpacking in grizzly territory and did get an air-horn.  Never encountered a bear, but I nearly scared the pee out of myself when I accidentally discharged it trying to take off my backpack. 

But unless someone with direct experience says otherwise, I have never heard air-horns being recommended against dogs.  I would be worried that startling them with noise might make an attack worse.

Haha I can picture that situation going down.  I would probably do the same thing at some point if I carried an air horn.

It depends on the state of the dog.  If it's actively attacking, an air horn (or any loud noise, screaming/yelling) is useless and liable to make things worse.  If the dog has not yet started to attack (growling, approaching slowly, eyeing you) then it's possible to startle the dog into a different course of behaviours and pre-empt an attack.

True, an air horn would most likely give the dog momentary pause leading up to an attack, giving you a little more time to defend yourself. If the dog is already biting/latched on, it probably won't do anything.

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #84 on: January 02, 2018, 01:16:55 PM »
I regularly use a loud noise in my work to break a dog's focus. It's not a good training method (they shouldn't be that wound up in the first place) but in a pinch it allows me a pause to bring their focus back to me and suggest another behaviour. In this case you'd be limited as to what you can do but if you had food - make a noise, throw food away from you as far as possible. I don't agree that it would make them more aggressive, but I'd be willing to hear from anyone who has seen the opposite. Maybe @FIFoFum can make a suggestion?

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #85 on: January 02, 2018, 02:28:39 PM »
Some dog walkers and trainers I know carry an airhorn and find it works well enough. The top three choices for deterrent seem to be airhorn, pepper spray or another unpleasant scent spray (not as strong as mace/pepper). The goal is to interrupt unwanted attention BEFORE the other dog(s) are well over threshold.

I know people who recommend the 'throw food the opposite way' approach, though it's not something I've done often myself. It works best if you are only a few steps away from where you can be removed from the other dogs (like the OP here was).

Each situation is different and no one solution is perfect. It's different when you have a small dog vs. a large dog. It's different if you have a puppy. It's different if you faced with a solo dog vs. multiple dogs acting as a pack.

In this case, the OP was not being attacked and these dogs were not being aggressive toward OP. Holding the OP's dog and retreating probably WAS the right call, as scary as it may have been.

It's not easy to use any form of deterrent - horn, spray, stick, etc. when you have multiple reactive dogs off-leash approaching AND your own little dog with you to hold at the same time. There is no perfect answer and hindsight is 20/20.

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #86 on: January 03, 2018, 10:21:24 AM »
Some dog walkers and trainers I know carry an airhorn and find it works well enough. The top three choices for deterrent seem to be airhorn, pepper spray or another unpleasant scent spray (not as strong as mace/pepper). The goal is to interrupt unwanted attention BEFORE the other dog(s) are well over threshold.

I know people who recommend the 'throw food the opposite way' approach, though it's not something I've done often myself. It works best if you are only a few steps away from where you can be removed from the other dogs (like the OP here was).

Each situation is different and no one solution is perfect. It's different when you have a small dog vs. a large dog. It's different if you have a puppy. It's different if you faced with a solo dog vs. multiple dogs acting as a pack.

In this case, the OP was not being attacked and these dogs were not being aggressive toward OP. Holding the OP's dog and retreating probably WAS the right call, as scary as it may have been.

It's not easy to use any form of deterrent - horn, spray, stick, etc. when you have multiple reactive dogs off-leash approaching AND your own little dog with you to hold at the same time. There is no perfect answer and hindsight is 20/20.

This might work for dogs that are just excited and running up to you to say hello.  If the dog is truly aggressive toward you or your dog it could care less about the food.

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #87 on: January 03, 2018, 07:19:30 PM »
My wife and I foster rescue dogs. Living in Baltimore, this means primarily pitbulls. The pitbull isn't actually a breed, it's a general term for a variety of breeds with similar features. Before this experience I had very little experience with these breeds and I like to think I'm pretty objective.
I have now "got to know" dozens of these dogs, from a variety of backgrounds. My wife, who is more involved than I am, has spent a decent amount of time with probably 100+ animals. The bottomline is that very, very few of these animals are at all aggressive. In fact, in situations where aggression would likely be displayed, they tend to avoid it more than other breeds I have worked with - they look at you like "Are you going to make me be aggressive here? I don't want to".
And therein lies the problem. They're very very loyal, very intelligent and very easily trained. That makes them ideal if you want a fighting dog, because they will learn how to fight easily and will fight to the death if their master wants them to. But they don't want to. You can see their opposition to it in real life, and you can definitely see it in dogfighting videos if you are ever unlucky enough to view them.
The above qualities are why some segments of society unfortunately train their dogs to be aggressive. And because they then favor those breeds, the breed earns the reputation it has. But these same qualities mean that a rescued pit can usually be re-trained, with a higher success rate than other breeds. That, together with dangerous dogs being identified at the shelter, means that very very few that are adopted out ever go on to cause trouble - again, less than other breeds even.
Basically, pit bulls are absolutely not aggressive dogs. They are just favored by people who train them that way, and that is only a small percentage. Should you be scared of them on the street? Be cautious, sure, but you should do that around any breed when you don't know the individual animal. Don't blame the breed though, blame the owner.

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #88 on: January 03, 2018, 09:16:56 PM »
Quote
ventually the owner came out of his house and got control of his animal, then yelled at me for kicking it.  I took my dog home, got her head to stop bleeding, took her to the vet, and called animal control.  The animal control guy came out to our house, took my statement, then went to the guy's house.  He confirmed what I suspected, that this was indeed a pitbull (illegally owned as they are banned in Toronto).

I think the owners of Pit Bulls may fit into certain categories too.  Ever see these cartoons showing how dogs and their owners are alike?  There's many folks out there that don't care about being fair to others.  They only care about their own.  The dogs are one of their own.


I mentioned this earlier, but large aggressive dogs are often desired (and owned) by a particular type of person.
http://blog.dogsbite.org/2008/01/pit-bull-owners-more-likely-to-be.html

Of course, it's not universally true that this is the case, but it's true often enough that you should be leery of any pitbull that you meet while walking around.  The same is simply not the case for other common breeds of dog (labs, golden retrievers, beagles, etc.) that you might run into.

I agree with what you're saying, but I'm finding faults with the source. They count anyone who has ever had a traffic citation, even minor citations, as a criminal. It reads like they wanted a certain outcome and they picked the statistics that backed up their story. I would be more interested in seeing the statistics for the dog breeds owned specifically by violent criminals VS the general population. I wouldn't be surprised if violent criminals were more likely to own Pitt Bulls than Poodles, but I would feel better about the data. I did see a reference in the article specifically referencing that owners who failed to register or confine their vicious dog were far more likely to also be involved in violent crimes than owners of registered low-risk dogs. Again, I agree with what they are getting at, but they are comparing registered dogs to unregistered loose dogs.


In my own experience, the nicest dogs I've known were a Pitt Bull and a police Belgian Malinois(it was nice to friends, very well trained would be an understatement). The meanest dogs I have ever met were a chihuahua and a pomeranian. The pomeranian tried to bite anything, ANYTHING, that came near it. The chihuahua tried to attack any dog that came near it.

My personal thoughts: With great power comes great responsibility. If you own any dog you should train it. If you own a dog capable of causing serious harm you should take extra care in it's training. The Belgian Malinois I knew was without a doubt one of the most dangerous dogs I have encountered, but it also had the very best training so I was never worried.

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #89 on: January 03, 2018, 09:23:52 PM »
Quote
ventually the owner came out of his house and got control of his animal, then yelled at me for kicking it.  I took my dog home, got her head to stop bleeding, took her to the vet, and called animal control.  The animal control guy came out to our house, took my statement, then went to the guy's house.  He confirmed what I suspected, that this was indeed a pitbull (illegally owned as they are banned in Toronto).

I think the owners of Pit Bulls may fit into certain categories too.  Ever see these cartoons showing how dogs and their owners are alike?  There's many folks out there that don't care about being fair to others.  They only care about their own.  The dogs are one of their own.


I mentioned this earlier, but large aggressive dogs are often desired (and owned) by a particular type of person.
http://blog.dogsbite.org/2008/01/pit-bull-owners-more-likely-to-be.html

Of course, it's not universally true that this is the case, but it's true often enough that you should be leery of any pitbull that you meet while walking around.  The same is simply not the case for other common breeds of dog (labs, golden retrievers, beagles, etc.) that you might run into.

I agree with what you're saying, but I'm finding faults with the source. They count anyone who has ever had a traffic citation, even minor citations, as a criminal. It reads like they wanted a certain outcome and they picked the statistics that backed up their story. I would be more interested in seeing the statistics for the dog breeds owned specifically by violent criminals VS the general population. I wouldn't be surprised if violent criminals were more likely to own Pitt Bulls than Poodles, but I would feel better about the data. I did see a reference in the article specifically referencing that owners who failed to register or confine their vicious dog were far more likely to also be involved in violent crimes than owners of registered low-risk dogs. Again, I agree with what they are getting at, but they are comparing registered dogs to unregistered loose dogs.


In my own experience, the nicest dogs I've known were a Pitt Bull and a police Belgian Malinois(it was nice to friends, very well trained would be an understatement). The meanest dogs I have ever met were a chihuahua and a pomeranian. The pomeranian tried to bite anything, ANYTHING, that came near it. The chihuahua tried to attack any dog that came near it.

My personal thoughts: With great power comes great responsibility. If you own any dog you should train it. If you own a dog capable of causing serious harm you should take extra care in it's training. The Belgian Malinois I knew was without a doubt one of the most dangerous dogs I have encountered, but it also had the very best training so I was never worried.

I worked with a K9 & his handler for a while (GSD) and learned about the Malinois then - they're ridiculously impressive when properly trained.

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #90 on: January 04, 2018, 08:45:02 AM »
Quote
ventually the owner came out of his house and got control of his animal, then yelled at me for kicking it.  I took my dog home, got her head to stop bleeding, took her to the vet, and called animal control.  The animal control guy came out to our house, took my statement, then went to the guy's house.  He confirmed what I suspected, that this was indeed a pitbull (illegally owned as they are banned in Toronto).

I think the owners of Pit Bulls may fit into certain categories too.  Ever see these cartoons showing how dogs and their owners are alike?  There's many folks out there that don't care about being fair to others.  They only care about their own.  The dogs are one of their own.


I mentioned this earlier, but large aggressive dogs are often desired (and owned) by a particular type of person.
http://blog.dogsbite.org/2008/01/pit-bull-owners-more-likely-to-be.html

Of course, it's not universally true that this is the case, but it's true often enough that you should be leery of any pitbull that you meet while walking around.  The same is simply not the case for other common breeds of dog (labs, golden retrievers, beagles, etc.) that you might run into.

As my friend said, right now Pits are "asshole" dog of choice.

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #91 on: January 04, 2018, 09:04:27 AM »
My cousin's small dog (don't remember the type, probably 10-20 lbs) was killed by an off leash Great Pyrenees a couple years ago while they were out walking. I believe she did know who the owners were and the dog ended up being put down, as this was not its first offense. As for what she did after to prevent it happening again, she hasn't gotten another dog. It really traumatized her, although she and her husband are now considering getting another dog finally.

OP while the police may not have done anything, it is still good to submit a report as it creates a paper trail of a pattern in case someone's dog does get killed or a pattern forms and the dogs are identified. The other people who had been attacked by the Great Pyrenees and submitted reports allowed my cousin's report to carry more weight and ended in the animal being terminated, which I guess may have happened anyway.

You could carry a stick/baton, as most violent dogs have had encounters with sticks/clubs/thingspeopleholdmenacingly before and will keep their distance. I think the deterrent value of a stick is probably higher than pepper spray, although it is less convenient.


As for the whole breed restriction discussion, for the most part the pits I see are owned by a different demographic than Labs or Chihuahuas.  That could very much explain the difference in statistics, along with most dogfighting dogs being pits, thus them being lumped into the statistics. If you outlaw pits those same people will find another dog and that will become the "violent breed."

In my experience in suburbia little dogs tend to be the most aggressive and violent because owners don't take it seriously, or even think it's cute and reward the behavior. My girlfriend was bit by her sister's Pomeranian for getting close to it while it was eating. Her sister admitted they thought the defensive behavior was cute so had been encouraging it as a puppy, and now they basically end up screaming at it and threatening to hit it until it runs away if it gets into the cat food or something else it shouldn't eat. If it gets into catfood and she's not there, the rest of us just let it eat the cat food and don't go near it anymore.  It's a nightmare, and a shame because it's a really smart dog that loves people.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 09:09:37 AM by ooeei »

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #92 on: January 04, 2018, 09:52:35 AM »
OP here. It seems to me this thread is going off-topic. Rather than the pros and cons of pit bulls (like religion or politics--never going to be consensus), I'd like to see anecdotes from people who have been attacked by dogs (or other animals--bears, coyotes, whatever.) How did you save yourself?  If you were out with your pet, could you save your pet? Do you have any recommendations other than what we've seen upthread? I'd like to see practical ideas for those of us who are outside all the time walking our pet dogs.
Missed this thread, sorry. Sorry to hear of the incident. Scary. Glad you are ok!

I bike 3-5k and walk another 1000 miles or so each year. The walking is with a bunch of small kiddos. I am rather protective of myself and the kiddos ;) I've been attacked by dogs numerous times on the bike, and dogs have gone after the kids twice. No major injuries, minor nips on the ankles and a kid or two knocked over. One incident on a beach with an off-leash pitt and a 2yr old could have been much worse. I screamed pretty good at the owner and threatened to kill the dog with my bare hands... luckily the dog obeyed the owner and both left in a hurry, I would have tried but might not have been able to make good on the threat!

- Be prepared, be aware
- Escalate:
1) Act big and yell. Not a little, a LOT. The dog makes a snap decision who is in charge. Be in charge, leave no doubt in the dog's mind.
2) pepper spray. You got that covered, good job!
3) follow up aggressively with the owner and call the cops. A dog which attacked you or your pet should be put down, period full stop. If there is no consequence, it will happen again, and again, and again.... you have become an enabler of dangerous behavior.

That should cover it. Some people use a stick etc. I do not trust stick skillz, too easy to brain my own kid or drop the stick or whatever, especially when the adrenaline is in overdrive. If I pepper spray my own kid in the process of maybe saving their life, that's okay, they will recover.

Of course some people go to the next step and carry a sidearm. I understand that is not an option for you and I've not used this option myself. Smart people who use this option use 'rat shot' (super fine pellet) cartridges as they do huge damage up close, while largely eliminating the risk of accidentally killing someone hundreds of feet away.

Good luck!!

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #93 on: January 31, 2018, 01:46:39 PM »
I'm just jumping back on this thread to say that I saw the two pit bulls again--they were on leashes and under control in their own large yard--but they live in a house directly across from the driveway into our apartment complex, so are quite geographically close. I went down to the police department immediately to report that the neighbors who thought the two attacking dogs might be from that house were in fact correct. The police pulled up the records from earlier in the year, and I was surprised to see they had a factual, typewritten report on the incident. They immediately added to it the fact that I had positively identified the dogs as being at that address, and gave me a copy of the entire report. So we at least have a paper trail if the dogs cause any problems again. And I carry pepper spray now.

Cali Nonya

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #94 on: January 31, 2018, 05:06:14 PM »
lizzzi:

Glad to hear that the report was entered (and taken seriously) and that you followed up on it.

I hope that you don't have to deal with this again.
Thanks for sharing your story.

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #95 on: January 31, 2018, 05:31:37 PM »
The breed itself is not aggressive unless you raised it to be aggressive. It is 100% the owner's fault and they should be held responsible when the police find out who they are. It's a shame that animals almost automatically are put down because of careless humans.

+1

lizzzi, you did an amazing job protecting your pup!

Sad story alert:  My best friend growing up had a papillon dog.  Her mom was taking the dog on a walk on-leash on the trails behind their home when some large off-leash dog ran at them.  That dog snapped its jaws around little Lily.  The other owner eventually called his dog off and they fled to avoid the consequences.  My friend's mom tried rushing home to save Lily, but the poor little thing died in her arms on the way.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2018, 05:37:55 PM by LeRainDrop »

FIRE47

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #96 on: February 01, 2018, 11:21:10 AM »
People should be responsible for their dogs. That being said walking with a tiny dog is basically the same as walking with a squirrel on a leash, you basically have a prey animal on a string.

It is in the nature of most dogs to seize small moving animals. There is nothing necessarily wrong with the nature and character of a dog attempting to go after a tiny dog. There is something wrong with allowing them to do so but equating it with going after people or children is a fallacy. Greyhounds  for example are actually probably the most dangerous dog to have around small dogs due to their drive to chase fleeing prey. Larger terriers such as the pitbull are also not good with smaller dogs. Smaller terriers themselves are not good either they are simply not as large so not as many dogs are seen as prey.

Getting mad at the dog is not much different from getting mad at a cat going for going after a pet hamster - it is up to people to keep them separated. At the end of the day they are just an animal.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2018, 11:23:18 AM by FIRE47 »

lizzzi

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #97 on: February 01, 2018, 03:19:28 PM »
Dogs who would go after a small dog on a leash with a human right there--jumping all over the human and snapping and biting at the small dog she was trying to keep away from them--are dangerous dogs. I would be the first to agree that my dog is the size of a squirrel or rabbit. If he got loose and was outside alone running all over the lawns, hills, and woods, I would say--OK, fair enough, if he gets eaten it is my fault. But he was literally on a short leash at my side. These pit bulls were scary--silent and intent--you could see that they intended to kill-- And they did not care if I was in the way or not. I'm a dog person--not at all afraid of dogs--have been around dogs my whole life. But this was different. It was perilous, very frightening, and could have ended very badly.

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Re: Attacked by Two Pit Bulls--WWYD
« Reply #98 on: February 01, 2018, 05:39:01 PM »
It's the responsibility of any dog owner to train and control his animal.  Sadly, we aren't legally allowed to put bad owners to sleep, so the dogs end up taking the brunt of the blame for their actions.  An uncontrolled/uncontrollable (distinction doesn't matter) dog attacking other dogs or people when the owner is right there should be destroyed for the safety of others.