Author Topic: Another "knowing your worth" situation - help appreciated  (Read 1559 times)

Archipelago

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Another "knowing your worth" situation - help appreciated
« on: August 09, 2021, 02:08:10 PM »
Hello all,

I'm hoping you can help me parse this apart. I told my boss 2 months ago that I was going to be moving on from the company. Reason is because of lifestyle change (transitioning to self employment working 10-20 hrs/week). I said that I was willing to stay on and train my replacement. This decision was driven by a few factors...company allowed me to go on unpaid leave for 4 weeks earlier this year, I genuinely like my boss/colleagues, and that I'm not really in a rush to leave. My boss reacted positively but said realistically it would take 3-6 months to hire and train someone for my replacement. OK, I said. I'd prefer it closer to the 3 month mark rather than the tail end 6 month mark for the transition to take place. So long as I have the ability to take extra days off (unpaid) to achieve the lifestyle change of my original intent. Boss was fine with that. I took 8 days off last month and a few extra days here and there. Good enough.

So far, almost no progress on the replacement front. Boss says they're interviewing people but not much luck in finding a suitable replacement candidate.

And here's another thing that came up. It was just announced last week that we are making a sizeable acquisition. I work out of a rapidly growing Data Integrity department which is critical for running the business and essential for acquisitions. Leaving now would strain the business.

Question is, is this a position in which to start bargaining? Ask for a large salary increase? If I'm told no, I'm already on the way out. In a way I feel like I'm holding all the cards and have nothing to lose. Usually it would be the opposite way around. I'm also fairly confident that if I went into the job market tomorrow, I could find another job that comes with a substantial raise, better benefits or a combination of both.

I've been with the company for 2.5 years. I started at $52k and received 10% raises each year. Total comp is $62k + around $5k in quarterly bonuses. Average benefits in my estimation. Mediocre insurance, health plan not eligible for HSA, 11 days of paid vacation per year. 50% 401(k) match up to 3% of pay. Office setting, 30 minute commute each way, WFH options tend to be fairly limited.

What would you do and how do you know when it's time to pushing bargaining chips around? I rank very high in agreeableness so these types of situations don't come naturally.

As always, TIA.

draco44

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Re: Another "knowing your worth" situation - help appreciated
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2021, 02:30:53 PM »
Do you have a firm departure date in writing? I'm unclear from your description how finalized your departure plans are at the moment. Whether you actually want to stay or go, I think having your position formalized will be to your benefit, either to protect you from being coerced into staying longer than you want to waiting for your replacement (named Godot?) to materialize, or to document the point after which you expect a raise if you are going to stay.

Also, remember that if you leave it is NOT your responsibility to help them make a smooth transition if they can't get their act together to find a replacement in a timely manner for you to train them properly. You've announced your intentions. The company can react as it sees fit, even if it acts a manner shooting itself in the foot.

Tester

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Re: Another "knowing your worth" situation - help appreciated
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2021, 03:12:22 PM »
If it was just a discussion it might take 100000000 years until they move.
If you want to move you just give 2 weeks notice and good bye.

I hope I am wrong but this is what I think will happen:

1. No replacement found.
2. You will have a lot to work for the aquisition.
3. No replacement found.
4. You will have more work to do.
5. You get mad.

I would rather have the end date in writing (and usually that is 2 weeks from now, giving 3 months notice will just add more stress to you) to make things fair for everyone.
That is if you are ready to leave.
If not, find another job and then give the 2 week notice.

Make a list of all the documents your replacement would need, add more documentation if some is missing and be done.

Geppetto

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Re: Another "knowing your worth" situation - help appreciated
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2021, 03:46:37 PM »
I'm in this exact situation, but I'm the employer. (For the first 2 paragraphs, I thought your post was posted by my actual employee!)

My advice is actually a story. It occurs in December 2021. At that time one of two things will happen:

 - My employee will have completed her 6 months after being patient with me in finding her replacement (which is difficult and slow) and doing her best to train that person; then on the day she leaves she'll receive a year-end bonus check that is a multiple of any of the (very generous) bonus checks she's received in previous Decembers.

 - Or, I will be looking back on the year, lamenting that my employee's 6-month commitment wasn't real, and treating myself to an extra $20,000 brokerage account contribution.

I'd much rather cut the surprise bonus check.

In other words, my advice is to "know your worth" as a citizen whose commitments matter, and do what you said you would do. In this situation and in all others. Then watch the universe fall all over itself to reward you. If not with this boss in cold hard cash at the end of this year, then in subtler ways that compound as reliably as any stock portfolio.

plog

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Re: Another "knowing your worth" situation - help appreciated
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2021, 06:16:07 PM »
I think you need to figure out what you want. 

You told them you are leaving, but then something happened and you smell leverage.  So maybe you're not leaving them.  But then you talk about getting another job.  So which is it:  Self employed, keep working there or getting a new job?   You are all over the place.

Make a priority list of the best outcomes, then work toward #1; if that falls apart, work toward #2, if that falls apart...etc etc.


Rdy2Fire

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Re: Another "knowing your worth" situation - help appreciated
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2021, 07:23:01 AM »
I think there was some good advice above. I wouldn't count on a 'bonus check' but I think that @Geppetto is being generous and more then fair but I also think the situation is slightly different.

You @Archipelago don't actually have a set timeline with your management, you're shooting at a moving target. Maybe your management doesn't realize your value or maybe, to some points above, you don't realize your value. There is really no incentive for them to rush to hire or even hire at all if you're not going anywhere and are willing to just keep working. This could simple be you "rank very high in agreeableness" and they are taking advantage of it.

If I were you, and everyone is different, obviously, I'd give some serious thought to what you want to really do.

Do you want to move on, if so, go speak to your management and explain you've seen no progress and appreciate it's hard to find good people etc but X DATE will be your last day and put it in writing.

If you aren't sure you want to move on or would be happy to stay for the right $$ then make a plan to negotiate a new salary through the acquisition and maybe agree to 1 year (or some timeline) to get them through. Again get this in writing, maybe a 1 year contract/commitment. If you got that route I'd ask for a SUBSTANTIAL increase, if you think it's worth a 25% raise then ask for or 50% because with that is going to come a lot more work, they will make sure of it.

My guess is you will get what you ask for or close but if you don't then YOU ARE FREE and it's done; if you truly don't care this is a win win regardless of outcome.

Malcat

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Re: Another "knowing your worth" situation - help appreciated
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2021, 10:26:53 AM »
It's unclear what you want and what your actual current situation is.

Have you given official notice?
Are you set on leaving?
Are you just looking for a way to leverage some extra money for the months that you are already intending to stay, or are you looking to leverage an ongoing increase in salary and sticking around?

What you should do depends on what you want.

Archipelago

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Re: Another "knowing your worth" situation - help appreciated
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2021, 09:12:43 AM »
Do you have a firm departure date in writing? I'm unclear from your description how finalized your departure plans are at the moment. Whether you actually want to stay or go, I think having your position formalized will be to your benefit, either to protect you from being coerced into staying longer than you want to waiting for your replacement (named Godot?) to materialize, or to document the point after which you expect a raise if you are going to stay.

Also, remember that if you leave it is NOT your responsibility to help them make a smooth transition if they can't get their act together to find a replacement in a timely manner for you to train them properly. You've announced your intentions. The company can react as it sees fit, even if it acts a manner shooting itself in the foot.

Nope, no departure date in writing. The plans are not finalized at all. I check in with boss from time to time to see what the progress is with hiring. So far all it's been is "the update is: there is no update" type thing.

To your 2nd paragraph I completely agree with everything that's been said. Standard courtesy is 2 weeks notice. Anything beyond that I've done the company a favor in terms of a smooth transition.

Archipelago

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Re: Another "knowing your worth" situation - help appreciated
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2021, 09:15:00 AM »
If it was just a discussion it might take 100000000 years until they move.
If you want to move you just give 2 weeks notice and good bye.

I hope I am wrong but this is what I think will happen:

1. No replacement found.
2. You will have a lot to work for the aquisition.
3. No replacement found.
4. You will have more work to do.
5. You get mad.

I would rather have the end date in writing (and usually that is 2 weeks from now, giving 3 months notice will just add more stress to you) to make things fair for everyone.
That is if you are ready to leave.
If not, find another job and then give the 2 week notice.

Make a list of all the documents your replacement would need, add more documentation if some is missing and be done.

Your very last part seems to be the most plausible and effective way of exiting. Where I've done everything I could possibly do to make the transition. And end it there on very good terms. Company has already said the door is always open if I wish to return.

Archipelago

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Re: Another "knowing your worth" situation - help appreciated
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2021, 09:27:58 AM »
I'm in this exact situation, but I'm the employer. (For the first 2 paragraphs, I thought your post was posted by my actual employee!)

My advice is actually a story. It occurs in December 2021. At that time one of two things will happen:

 - My employee will have completed her 6 months after being patient with me in finding her replacement (which is difficult and slow) and doing her best to train that person; then on the day she leaves she'll receive a year-end bonus check that is a multiple of any of the (very generous) bonus checks she's received in previous Decembers.

 - Or, I will be looking back on the year, lamenting that my employee's 6-month commitment wasn't real, and treating myself to an extra $20,000 brokerage account contribution.

I'd much rather cut the surprise bonus check.

In other words, my advice is to "know your worth" as a citizen whose commitments matter, and do what you said you would do. In this situation and in all others. Then watch the universe fall all over itself to reward you. If not with this boss in cold hard cash at the end of this year, then in subtler ways that compound as reliably as any stock portfolio.

I really appreciate the perspective from the employer side. Side note - I also appreciate how your post was elegantly written.

I am very sympathetic to the commitment angle. Question - I said and agreed to 3-6 months for the holdover period. We are coming up on the 3 month period in just a few weeks. Do I aim for 3 months, 6 months, or somewhere in between? Any of these options are considered valid follow throughs.

There comes a crossroads where I take fate into my own hands vs. let fate run its course. That's what I am trying to unravel and understand. Does this make any sense?

Archipelago

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Re: Another "knowing your worth" situation - help appreciated
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2021, 10:17:39 AM »
I think you need to figure out what you want. 

You told them you are leaving, but then something happened and you smell leverage.  So maybe you're not leaving them.  But then you talk about getting another job.  So which is it:  Self employed, keep working there or getting a new job?   You are all over the place.

Make a priority list of the best outcomes, then work toward #1; if that falls apart, work toward #2, if that falls apart...etc etc.

Here is what I envision (5 year horizon):

1. FIRE as quickly as possible to maximize the amount of time allocated to family, friends and community. There are only so many hours in a week. 40-50 of them are currently spent in an office doing a job for the purpose of opening the door to FIREship.

2. I don't want to possess vast amounts of wealth. I want enough to live a modest, minimal lifestyle. That's it. Anything beyond that I wish to give.

3. I want to live in a small house with my wife, begin raising children, and from there do whatever in life is expected of me. This will occur itself as life unfolds and circumstances change. It could take the form of a new career, being a stay at home parent, etc.

So yes, you're exactly right. If asking for more money at job helps #1, then yes I'm smelling leverage and will do whatever it takes to materialize the vision. Family and time are paramount. Do I emphasize family and time here and now by leaving work, or do I continue working and maximize earnings to bolster that same goal, but in a delayed manner?

I'm laying this all out on the table because I'm just trying to think. For anyone reading this and have been very kind to reply, I welcome you to challenge my thinking. Tear apart faulty ideas and reasoning. This discussion reaches core MMM principles and we're all trying to unravel it in one way or another.

oldladystache

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Re: Another "knowing your worth" situation - help appreciated
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2021, 10:24:17 AM »
Many years ago I told the boss (small company owner) I was planning to leave, but I'd stay and help get a replacement going. He thanked me, and nothing happened. A few weeks later I told him if he wanted me to stay any longer he would have to pay me twice as much.

It was just a short time before he had found a replacement for me to train.

pasadenafr

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Re: Another "knowing your worth" situation - help appreciated
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2021, 10:27:21 AM »
I'm in this exact situation, but I'm the employer. (For the first 2 paragraphs, I thought your post was posted by my actual employee!)

My advice is actually a story. It occurs in December 2021. At that time one of two things will happen:

 - My employee will have completed her 6 months after being patient with me in finding her replacement (which is difficult and slow) and doing her best to train that person; then on the day she leaves she'll receive a year-end bonus check that is a multiple of any of the (very generous) bonus checks she's received in previous Decembers.

 - Or, I will be looking back on the year, lamenting that my employee's 6-month commitment wasn't real, and treating myself to an extra $20,000 brokerage account contribution.

I'd much rather cut the surprise bonus check.

In other words, my advice is to "know your worth" as a citizen whose commitments matter, and do what you said you would do. In this situation and in all others. Then watch the universe fall all over itself to reward you. If not with this boss in cold hard cash at the end of this year, then in subtler ways that compound as reliably as any stock portfolio.

I really appreciate the perspective from the employer side. Side note - I also appreciate how your post was elegantly written.

I am very sympathetic to the commitment angle. Question - I said and agreed to 3-6 months for the holdover period. We are coming up on the 3 month period in just a few weeks. Do I aim for 3 months, 6 months, or somewhere in between? Any of these options are considered valid follow throughs.

There comes a crossroads where I take fate into my own hands vs. let fate run its course. That's what I am trying to unravel and understand. Does this make any sense?

You agreed to 6 months. The thing is, you haven't resigned, so nothing is going to happen. Give your resignation, with an end date 3 months from now (so 6 months from your original agreement), and watch the magic happen. If it doesn't, not your problem.

I agree with the other posters that you need to make a decision on what you want, and act accordingly. But you also need to act according to what you said you would be doing. If you stay because of the sale and the perceived -potential- leverage, you must be ready to accept that the next time you threaten them to leave, they will call your bluff.

Geppetto

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Re: Another "knowing your worth" situation - help appreciated
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2021, 11:12:03 AM »
I'm in this exact situation, but I'm the employer. (For the first 2 paragraphs, I thought your post was posted by my actual employee!)

My advice is actually a story. It occurs in December 2021. At that time one of two things will happen:

 - My employee will have completed her 6 months after being patient with me in finding her replacement (which is difficult and slow) and doing her best to train that person; then on the day she leaves she'll receive a year-end bonus check that is a multiple of any of the (very generous) bonus checks she's received in previous Decembers.

 - Or, I will be looking back on the year, lamenting that my employee's 6-month commitment wasn't real, and treating myself to an extra $20,000 brokerage account contribution.

I'd much rather cut the surprise bonus check.

In other words, my advice is to "know your worth" as a citizen whose commitments matter, and do what you said you would do. In this situation and in all others. Then watch the universe fall all over itself to reward you. If not with this boss in cold hard cash at the end of this year, then in subtler ways that compound as reliably as any stock portfolio.

I really appreciate the perspective from the employer side. Side note - I also appreciate how your post was elegantly written.

I am very sympathetic to the commitment angle. Question - I said and agreed to 3-6 months for the holdover period. We are coming up on the 3 month period in just a few weeks. Do I aim for 3 months, 6 months, or somewhere in between? Any of these options are considered valid follow throughs.

There comes a crossroads where I take fate into my own hands vs. let fate run its course. That's what I am trying to unravel and understand. Does this make any sense?

Sounds like you're getting to the nub of the problem. Everyone is saying "figure out what you want to do, and do it". How to know what you want? One way of figuring that out is to interrogate yourself: "What course of action would make me proudest?" I suggest you identify the answer to that question without too much fussing, and then cheerfully proceed.

ericrugiero

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Re: Another "knowing your worth" situation - help appreciated
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2021, 08:39:23 AM »
You told them you would work 3-6 months.  Don't leave before at least 3 months.  I would also at least give two weeks notice. 

There is nothing wrong with being more assertive in telling them them you are ready to leave and they will need to provide more compensation for you to stay longer.  Maybe you want to work 3 days a week? They (or you) can pick what they want you to focus on during the 3 days and shift the other work to other people.  You could also offer to come back as a consultant to help your replacement learn to do your job.  The hourly rate should be higher since they aren't paying benefits. 

As others have mentioned, you need to decide what you want.  Anything from walking away in two weeks (or 3 months from the original agreement) to continuing to work indefinitely is totally acceptable. 

Archipelago

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Re: Another "knowing your worth" situation - help appreciated
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2021, 08:48:35 AM »
Spoke with my fiance about it in depth yesterday.

I would need to effectively have my salary doubled in order to stay. Basically an extra $5k per month. This makes almost no sense from a business perspective. Company could hire a replacement and another entry level employee on top of that for the cost. Even if I did get double salary, I don't even think it would be worth it. Workload would increase substantially and it'd defeat the purpose of the lifestyle change!

Archipelago

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Re: Another "knowing your worth" situation - help appreciated
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2021, 08:57:12 AM »
You told them you would work 3-6 months.  Don't leave before at least 3 months.  I would also at least give two weeks notice. 

There is nothing wrong with being more assertive in telling them them you are ready to leave and they will need to provide more compensation for you to stay longer.  Maybe you want to work 3 days a week? They (or you) can pick what they want you to focus on during the 3 days and shift the other work to other people.  You could also offer to come back as a consultant to help your replacement learn to do your job.  The hourly rate should be higher since they aren't paying benefits. 

As others have mentioned, you need to decide what you want.  Anything from walking away in two weeks (or 3 months from the original agreement) to continuing to work indefinitely is totally acceptable.

Had the first discussion about leaving on 5/14. And yes I would definitely give the 2 weeks notice.

Archipelago

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Re: Another "knowing your worth" situation - help appreciated
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2021, 12:05:09 PM »
Just to give a quick update. I gave my 2 week's notice today. I'll be done on September 10th. This will be month 4 since originally giving notice. Leaving on good terms, door always open, potential open for project work, etc. All favorable end results.

Thanks everyone for the advice!

draco44

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Re: Another "knowing your worth" situation - help appreciated
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2021, 03:19:01 PM »
Well done! Hopefully having more clarity about your situation is a relief.