Author Topic: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?  (Read 10191 times)

jeromedawg

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Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« on: May 04, 2022, 10:25:16 PM »
Hi all,

My wife has worked as an admin assistant for a friend of ours who is a financial planner for around 4 years now. She has been getting paid the same rate since she started helping her. She doesn't put in a ton of hours (probably around 5 hours a month) but has to meet certain deadlines - nothing high pressure though. She has been contemplating asking for a raise but not sure if she should and how she would go about it or what she should say/how to justify one.

Does it make sense to in her situation? Anyone have similar experience?

gooki

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2022, 02:04:38 AM »
Yeah, your not asking for a raise. Your adjusting your rate.

Just tell the financial planner what your new rate is and the date the new rate comes into effect.

And by you I mean your wife. The first times the hardest, but it gets easier next time and then it becomes natural to increase your rates every year or two.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2022, 02:07:47 AM by gooki »

shureShote

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2022, 05:39:53 AM »
Ouch, four years is a long time.

I agree with gooki, come up with a new number and have the conversation, realizing it can be hard to broach the subject. Total inflation over the last four years (ignoring at least part of the recent skyrocket I think) is about 15%. So raising rate 15% is just staying even.

Just think how much more her friend is making compared to 2018. Assuming any AUM, and no new clients, her friend is making 50% more (the stock market is up about 50% since this time four years ago). But, that is not the proper angle to take of course, just a comment to maybe help her apprehension.

jeromedawg

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2022, 08:01:29 AM »
Is the justification of "factoring in inflation over the course of the past four years" more than sufficient justification? Or should my wife also throw in the whole "I've also taken on more responsibility, etc" thing too? And should this be done in person? Over the phone? I'm assuming email/text/written probably is not the best route for this
« Last Edit: May 05, 2022, 10:56:31 AM by jeromedawg »

plog

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2022, 11:29:34 AM »
Quote
Is the justification of...

Stop right there.  You are missing the point. 

This isn't a favor you are asking for.  This isn't a subordinate/superior conversation.  This isn't even a conversation.  This is an independent contractor telling, (politely but firmly) that the contractor's rate will be increasing.

You can listen to and even accept a counter offer.  But this relationship and specific action doesn't require you offer a justification.  Stand firm and adjust your perspective on this.

jeromedawg

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2022, 12:07:34 PM »
Quote
Is the justification of...

Stop right there.  You are missing the point. 

This isn't a favor you are asking for.  This isn't a subordinate/superior conversation.  This isn't even a conversation.  This is an independent contractor telling, (politely but firmly) that the contractor's rate will be increasing.

You can listen to and even accept a counter offer.  But this relationship and specific action doesn't require you offer a justification.  Stand firm and adjust your perspective on this.

I think what makes this difficult is that it's not just some random financial planner that she found. It's a friend who offered to have her work this position (as an IC) to backfill for prior admin assistants who were in the role but moved on. It's not like my wife went through a formal means to get the position - on the flipside, it more less was something that "fell into her lap" so to speak.
I don't know if that changes anything but it seems a bit harsh to say (to a friend) that "my rate is increasing to $30 as of 6/1/22" - but maybe it really is just my perspective. I've never been in a position like this nor have I contracted, let alone for a friend, so I'm not in a position to give any advice. My bias is that I understand this to be a "friend first" kind of relationship between my wife and the FP though.

Another thing to note, and I'm not sure how relevant this would be, but her friend is the one who set her initial rate: "I would be paying $25 per hour for this position"

« Last Edit: May 05, 2022, 12:14:26 PM by jeromedawg »

jeninco

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2022, 12:39:58 PM »
1. she should search on "askamanager.org" for some sample language.
2. The last bit in your message provides a bit of context "I will be paying...", but I think your wife could still say "hey, COL has increased, as has my responsibility -- I think $30/hour is now more reasonable." Would also suggest she spend a little time researching the going rate for this kind of thing in your area, and then scale up -- I forget off the top of my head what the conversion rate is for this sort of thing, but it a typical salary would pay $25/hour for this position, you should be earning $25+a bunch more, because you're not getting benefits, etc.

dandarc

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2022, 01:03:49 PM »
If you want low key language to start this conversation "hey friend I've been doing this for the same hourly rate for 4 years . . ."

If they're actually a friend they'll know full well it is time for an increase and truly want to do it - might even offer more than you'd ask for if you start out with a number. But overall yeah - you adjust your rate, they take it, leave it, or counter offer. Not that big a deal, particularly if this is really only 5 hours per month.

I also think the "friend" here is likely taking advantage of your wife to an extent - easy hiring process is more beneficial to the employer than the IC in this case, and on top of that, they're probably under paying vs. the cost of an employee that it reads like how they had done this before. Particularly since your wife surely doesn't need this job, the help is flowing more from her to the friend than the other way around.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2022, 01:05:35 PM by dandarc »

gooki

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2022, 10:13:52 PM »
Quote
Is the justification of...

Stop right there.  You are missing the point. 

This isn't a favor you are asking for.  This isn't a subordinate/superior conversation.  This isn't even a conversation.  This is an independent contractor telling, (politely but firmly) that the contractor's rate will be increasing.

You can listen to and even accept a counter offer.  But this relationship and specific action doesn't require you offer a justification.  Stand firm and adjust your perspective on this.

This.

Quote
I think what makes this difficult is that it's not just some random financial planner that she found. It's a friend who offered to have her work this position (as an IC) to backfill for prior admin assistants who were in the role but moved on.

Being friends it should have been automatic but I understand people are busy and stuff gets missed and we'll business is business.

Email, phone call, in person, whatever works for your wife.

Hey Kelly, just a heads up my rates are increasing to $35 a hour from the first of July. I'll also be doing annual adjustments each year to keep up with inflation. Let me know if you have any questions around this. Cheerio your independent contractor and friend.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2022, 10:16:24 PM by gooki »

affordablehousing

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2022, 10:20:39 PM »
So your wife who works for this person 60 hours a year would be going from a net cost of $1500 to $1800 a year? Isn't that kind of a rounding error? I think there are a lot of ways to put this in a perspective of "this is no big deal." $300 buys a couple of dinners at a restaurant. I don't think her friend would feel put out at all.

jeromedawg

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2022, 10:28:28 AM »
Just an update but my wife finally got around to informing her financial planner friend of the "rate increase" and her friend acted surprised that she was asking for what she did ($30/hr from the $25/hr she is at now). She started talking about how she gives my wife bonuses every year and that is factored in which really makes her hourly rate $35/hr. Of course, this is all in the context of my wife working only 60 hours per year which i think the financial planner friend is forgetting.

On top of this, she brought up how she has another part time assistant who she pays the same rate and would feel bad giving my wife a raise but not the other assistant (and started going into more personal justifications on behalf of that assistant which I thought was inappropriate)... Except for the fact that the other assistant puts in way more hours and does this for a couple other financial planners basically equating to a full time gig.  Apples and oranges.

Anyway, after the conversation the financial planner friend told my wife that she needed some time to think about this and now my wife is feeling uncomfortable about the whole thing.
I understand this is an independent contractor gig but the financial planner friend seems to see things differently... She initially talked in the past about how this would be a nice gig for my wife to bring home some small supplemental income. So it almost feels like she thinks she is doing us a favor by having my wife work for her.  She also disclosed that she 'offered' the $25/hr rate initially because that other assistant offered to work for her for that much and she started several months before my wife so the financial planner used that as the benchmark. She's basically holding my wife 'captive' based on unfairly comparing her rate and work to the other assistant.

I think she takes what my wife is doing for her for granted... IMO she got more than what she asked for (in a good way) having my wife help her out. I think we are realizing this to be one of those "dont mix work and friendships" kinds of situations too. That said, i am suspecting that the friend will try to negotiate the rate down to $27.50 or $28 if anything and my wife will be OK with it. My wife thinks this will tarnish the relationship a bit and also that her friend may try to give her less work.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2022, 10:38:45 AM by jeromedawg »

Villanelle

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2022, 10:51:58 AM »
For me, the key question is whether your wife is okay losing some or all of this work.  Is she okay continuing to work for $25, or going up to $28?  Or does she think $35 is fair and anything less is not, and that means she won't work for less than that?  Perhaps she needs to have that answer ready to go.  It doesn't have to end the friendship, though things may be slightly awkward for a while.  If the employer comes back and says they can only stay at $25, or go to $27 (and your wife doesn't think it is worth it at that rate), then simply, "I understand.  It's just no longer worth it to me a that rate.  How about I put in another month so you can make other arrangements, and then I'll be done.  I appreciate the work you've given me and am happy to do what I can for the transition." 


former player

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2022, 12:37:37 PM »
For me, the key question is whether your wife is okay losing some or all of this work.  Is she okay continuing to work for $25, or going up to $28?  Or does she think $35 is fair and anything less is not, and that means she won't work for less than that?  Perhaps she needs to have that answer ready to go.  It doesn't have to end the friendship, though things may be slightly awkward for a while.  If the employer comes back and says they can only stay at $25, or go to $27 (and your wife doesn't think it is worth it at that rate), then simply, "I understand.  It's just no longer worth it to me a that rate.  How about I put in another month so you can make other arrangements, and then I'll be done.  I appreciate the work you've given me and am happy to do what I can for the transition."
I think this is right.  Your wife will have carefully thought about her new $30 rate.  For a financial planner in California who is doing well enough to have two assistants working for her an extra cost of $300 a year is a rounding error, as affordablehousing says - and the problem if the financial planner doesn't agree to it is that it clearly says they do not value your wife's work or your wife's status as an experienced and competent admin assistant.  Your wife definitely needs to walk away from the job if she doesn't get the rise, it would show a complete lack of respect on the part of her boss and the working relationship could only get worse from then on.

Fru-Gal

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2022, 12:47:57 PM »
Fire your bad clients! That’s my motto.

Your wife is in a situation right now where there is way more work to go around in the world and not enough people to do it. She could easily make up this work elsewhere and that is what her friend is assuming she doesn’t know.

The friend is a financial planner therefore astute in how to make money and keep it. Your wife needs to do the same. The friendship thing is messing up this transaction a little bit. An easy way out of this is to simply say “I have other business responsibilities and given the inflation rate I’m going to have to prioritize them.” There is no need to go into detail as it’s none of the client’s business.

lifeisshort123

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2022, 04:22:03 PM »
I think there are a few things going on here:

1. A lot of employers fundamentally misunderstand what it means to have someone who is an INDEPENDENT contractor.  They thing that it means this is a way that they can evade paying Employer FICA taxes, decrease liability risk for termination, etc.  That is true, but it also means that they are hiring out to an outside organization.

A good analogy is when I hire someone to come in and repair my home.  They can tell me what the fee will be for their services.  I can choose to negotiate with them, accept the fee, or reject the offer, but they do not become my “employee”.  Rather, they are completing a service for me, after which I, frankly, hope to never see them again. 

2. Your wife’s friend, as a financial planner, undoubtedly understands this.  However, she is probably enjoying the benefits of this system, and is hoping to guilt her into staying in the same role.  Including information about bonuses (which sound like they are not guaranteed by the way, or a part of the initial offer) is frankly irrelevant.  Comparing your wife’s work to someone else’s, in the case of an independent contractor is, in some ways, irrelevant. 

3. We are not talking about very much money.  It isn’t that much work, but it still is work.  If your wife doesn’t need the money, I would just say “you know, after thinking about this, I’m just eager to move on”.  I suspect the Financial planner was taken off guard by the information that the rate would be increasing, and now it may just be a “power play”, she wants to set the rate, and not be beholden to anyone else.

cupcakery

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2022, 06:27:40 AM »
How is she paid?  Does she submit an invoice?  I just periodically adjust the rate on my invoices and don't ever have a conversation about it.  I've never had anyone question it.

jeromedawg

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2022, 08:24:12 AM »
How is she paid?  Does she submit an invoice?  I just periodically adjust the rate on my invoices and don't ever have a conversation about it.  I've never had anyone question it.

She submits her hours and gets a check from the financial planner a week or so after. She doesn't invoice.

I think this is an inherently weird situation because she was a friend *first* and then told my wife how she needed help. So the context of all this originally was "hey I have something you could *help* me with that will help you bring a little side money home" kind of a deal. Win-win right? She gets "help" and likely would never need to worry about someone raising their rate. Initially, she told my wife something along the lines of how she doesn't mind a rate increase but then went on to explain her concerns about
A) the rate increase being higher than she [financial planner] expected and
B) her feeling guilty increasing my wife's rate but not her assistant who she apparently pays the same current rate

My wife thinks the financial planner is hard suck on B) and "feeling sorry" for the other assistant in the case that my wife gets a rate increase and the other does not. That assistant works for two other financial planners at the same firm though (and I believe is paid the same rate across the board) and essentially is working 40 hours a week. Supposedly the impact of giving her a $5 is much bigger... and if one financial planner increases her rate that means that it would then apply to the other ones or something like that (I don't know how it all works). Hypothetically speaking, if the other assistant works 15 hours for this financial planner at the $25 rate and has to be increased to $30, that's $5400/yr vs $3600/yr - a $1500 increase which is much more significant than the $300 additional my wife is asking for. Scales of proportion...

Villanelle

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2022, 09:44:26 AM »
How is she paid?  Does she submit an invoice?  I just periodically adjust the rate on my invoices and don't ever have a conversation about it.  I've never had anyone question it.

She submits her hours and gets a check from the financial planner a week or so after. She doesn't invoice.

I think this is an inherently weird situation because she was a friend *first* and then told my wife how she needed help. So the context of all this originally was "hey I have something you could *help* me with that will help you bring a little side money home" kind of a deal. Win-win right? She gets "help" and likely would never need to worry about someone raising their rate. Initially, she told my wife something along the lines of how she doesn't mind a rate increase but then went on to explain her concerns about
A) the rate increase being higher than she [financial planner] expected and
B) her feeling guilty increasing my wife's rate but not her assistant who she apparently pays the same current rate

My wife thinks the financial planner is hard suck on B) and "feeling sorry" for the other assistant in the case that my wife gets a rate increase and the other does not. That assistant works for two other financial planners at the same firm though (and I believe is paid the same rate across the board) and essentially is working 40 hours a week. Supposedly the impact of giving her a $5 is much bigger... and if one financial planner increases her rate that means that it would then apply to the other ones or something like that (I don't know how it all works). Hypothetically speaking, if the other assistant works 15 hours for this financial planner at the $25 rate and has to be increased to $30, that's $5400/yr vs $3600/yr - a $1500 increase which is much more significant than the $300 additional my wife is asking for. Scales of proportion...

What the other person makes is of no consequence here.  First, the planner doesn't need to pay them both the same rate.  Not that there needs to be justification, but it sounds like your spouse has been doing the work longer.  That alone would justify higher pay.  Second, the other person is free to ask for a pay raise if she wants one.  Third, underpaying someone else is not a justification for underpaying your wife.  If the worth was worth $25 four years ago, then it is worth more now. 

All of that is just noise.  Your wife feels her work is worth $30/hr today.  This woman can either pay that, or find someone else to do the work.  allowing the friend/employer to steer the conversation anywhere else just creates room for her to wiggle out of paying that.  For everyone one of those excuses, "I understand that, but I've been working for four years without a raise and feel my worth is worth at least $30/hr now.  I hope we can make that work because i have enjoyed working with you, but if not, thenI understand and am happy to work for a few weeks to transition my projects to someone else."  For each time she comes back with unfairness about the other worker or any other BS excuse, jus repeat some version of the first half of that.  Then at some point, "It seems like maybe you need some time to consider this.  Let's chat again on Tuesday and see what the final decision is.  Thanks!"

Don't get sucked into trying to justify the rate or assuage this person's guilt over another employee, or anything else.  Just keep steering back to, "I feel that $30/hr is a fair wage". 

All of this is assuming your wife genuinely feels that $30 and nothing less is a far wage and is willing to walk if she doesn't get it. 

jeromedawg

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2022, 11:13:07 AM »
How is she paid?  Does she submit an invoice?  I just periodically adjust the rate on my invoices and don't ever have a conversation about it.  I've never had anyone question it.

She submits her hours and gets a check from the financial planner a week or so after. She doesn't invoice.

I think this is an inherently weird situation because she was a friend *first* and then told my wife how she needed help. So the context of all this originally was "hey I have something you could *help* me with that will help you bring a little side money home" kind of a deal. Win-win right? She gets "help" and likely would never need to worry about someone raising their rate. Initially, she told my wife something along the lines of how she doesn't mind a rate increase but then went on to explain her concerns about
A) the rate increase being higher than she [financial planner] expected and
B) her feeling guilty increasing my wife's rate but not her assistant who she apparently pays the same current rate

My wife thinks the financial planner is hard suck on B) and "feeling sorry" for the other assistant in the case that my wife gets a rate increase and the other does not. That assistant works for two other financial planners at the same firm though (and I believe is paid the same rate across the board) and essentially is working 40 hours a week. Supposedly the impact of giving her a $5 is much bigger... and if one financial planner increases her rate that means that it would then apply to the other ones or something like that (I don't know how it all works). Hypothetically speaking, if the other assistant works 15 hours for this financial planner at the $25 rate and has to be increased to $30, that's $5400/yr vs $3600/yr - a $1500 increase which is much more significant than the $300 additional my wife is asking for. Scales of proportion...

What the other person makes is of no consequence here.  First, the planner doesn't need to pay them both the same rate.  Not that there needs to be justification, but it sounds like your spouse has been doing the work longer.  That alone would justify higher pay.  Second, the other person is free to ask for a pay raise if she wants one.  Third, underpaying someone else is not a justification for underpaying your wife.  If the worth was worth $25 four years ago, then it is worth more now. 

All of that is just noise.  Your wife feels her work is worth $30/hr today.  This woman can either pay that, or find someone else to do the work.  allowing the friend/employer to steer the conversation anywhere else just creates room for her to wiggle out of paying that.  For everyone one of those excuses, "I understand that, but I've been working for four years without a raise and feel my worth is worth at least $30/hr now.  I hope we can make that work because i have enjoyed working with you, but if not, thenI understand and am happy to work for a few weeks to transition my projects to someone else."  For each time she comes back with unfairness about the other worker or any other BS excuse, jus repeat some version of the first half of that.  Then at some point, "It seems like maybe you need some time to consider this.  Let's chat again on Tuesday and see what the final decision is.  Thanks!"

Don't get sucked into trying to justify the rate or assuage this person's guilt over another employee, or anything else.  Just keep steering back to, "I feel that $30/hr is a fair wage". 

All of this is assuming your wife genuinely feels that $30 and nothing less is a far wage and is willing to walk if she doesn't get it.

My wife thinks the planner is 'stuck' on "being fair" to the other assistant which I agree makes no sense. We'll see though - she told my wife she needed to take some time to think about it. My wife actually started several months after the other assistant. What drove the initial rate was that the other assistant asked for the $25/hr rate and this is how the planner determined the rate for my wife (it was all pretty informal at the time).  I keep telling my wife that none of this makes sense in the big picture and the bottom line, like what you say, is that $25 four years ago is not $25 today... there are blatantly obvious cost of living factors at play here which it seems the financial planner wants to blissfully ignore/overlook.

As far as what my wife feels her work is worth, she has always undervalued her work. Ultimately, I was the one driving her to ask for the raise in the first place - I think 4 years without any sort of increase is nonsensical. And for the planner to think she can 'get away with it' on the basis that this whole thing was formed out of her doing a favor for my wife is a bit ridiculous to me too. My wife has told me repeatedly that this work is easy work for her and she doesn't mind getting paid this rate even if she doesn't get the rate increase; she just felt like she had to ask for the higher amount partially to appease me and so that she could just get it off her chest. She said that even if she gets a rate increase (not necessarily $30) she'd be fine continuing the work.

I told her that she needs to think about and question this financial planner friend's integrity when it comes to working relationships. In the long run, it's probably not a healthy thing and I think she likely will stop working for her if she doesn't give some sort of increase.

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2022, 11:26:22 AM »
Negotiation skills are not taught nearly enough in any form of education and training - the ability to negotiate really does help someone do well in life.  Some people come by the skills apparently naturally, others of us need to learn them.

Your wife has entered a negotiation here, and Villanelle is quite right that your wife's employer, deliberately or not, is trying to sidestep the subject of the negotiation (what your wife's work is worth to her/her firm in hourly salary) with irrelevant information (the friendship, the "helping you out" aspect, what the other assistant is paid are all irrelevant).  Your wife's employer is quite likely, if she wants to wriggle out of paying the higher rate, to come back with further irrelevant pieces of information.  Your wife needs to be able to identify when she is being given irrelevant information and then to ignore it/sidestep it and bring the conversation back to what's relevant - something along the lines of "I can see that matters to you but it doesn't change my view that my work is worth $30 a hour and that's what I would like to be paid".

Captain FIRE

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2022, 11:44:38 AM »
As far as what my wife feels her work is worth, she has always undervalued her work. Ultimately, I was the one driving her to ask for the raise in the first place - I think 4 years without any sort of increase is nonsensical. And for the planner to think she can 'get away with it' on the basis that this whole thing was formed out of her doing a favor for my wife is a bit ridiculous to me too. My wife has told me repeatedly that this work is easy work for her and she doesn't mind getting paid this rate even if she doesn't get the rate increase; she just felt like she had to ask for the higher amount partially to appease me and so that she could just get it off her chest. She said that even if she gets a rate increase (not necessarily $30) she'd be fine continuing the work.

It sounds like your wife doesn't fully buy into the raise.  She's only pushing for it because you've told her to do so.  It's hard to fully advocate for a raise unless you believe you deserve it 100%.

Fru-Gal

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2022, 12:51:48 PM »
Language is so important in achieving our goals. I challenge you and your wife to stop using the word “raise” in this context. Feeling “bad” for the friend in this context is misplaced empathy. Whether your wife knows it or not she is running a business now and has been for the last four years.

Further, the friend is breaking independent contractor law by suggesting that she can set the rate she pays for a service. I suggest that she become familiar with this because it can have really bad repercussions for the friend’s business if your wife makes a claim as an employee. That’s happened to a bunch of friends of mine. Even with very small amounts of work done, a 1099 contractor claiming that one of their clients/customers is actually their employer is a big mess with the IRS and can lead to a court case.

Here are the tests for if you’re appropriately structuring work for a 1099 contractor: https://www.stoketalent.com/blog/irs-20-factor-test/

« Last Edit: August 22, 2022, 12:53:37 PM by Fru-Gal »

jeromedawg

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2022, 02:10:34 PM »
Language is so important in achieving our goals. I challenge you and your wife to stop using the word “raise” in this context. Feeling “bad” for the friend in this context is misplaced empathy. Whether your wife knows it or not she is running a business now and has been for the last four years.

Further, the friend is breaking independent contractor law by suggesting that she can set the rate she pays for a service. I suggest that she become familiar with this because it can have really bad repercussions for the friend’s business if your wife makes a claim as an employee. That’s happened to a bunch of friends of mine. Even with very small amounts of work done, a 1099 contractor claiming that one of their clients/customers is actually their employer is a big mess with the IRS and can lead to a court case.

Here are the tests for if you’re appropriately structuring work for a 1099 contractor: https://www.stoketalent.com/blog/irs-20-factor-test/

As far as communicating with the financial planner, she has only ever used "rate" - I think we're just talking about it as a "raise" because that's what we're so used to. But we are *slowly* learning to get away from this. That said, the financial planner sent her a text wanting to schedule a meeting about her "raise" and then mentioned a consultant review form where from here on out they would give one another feedback. So I'm not sure what that's all about... the financial planner apparently isn't looking at this like it's a rate increase of services but seems to be treating it like a traditional "let's talk about giving my employee a raise" scenario.


Good to know on the IC law - honestly, the whole thing started off so informally that the independent contractor piece kind of went over our heads (along with the realization that my wife can and should establish her own rates as an IC).


Fru-Gal

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2022, 02:31:47 PM »
Good to hear you guys are taking all of this advice to heart. Man I’m getting so triggered by your wife’s friend. There is absolutely no reason to use the language she is using unless she’s talking about an employee. She really needs to be educated on this. It seems to me like she’s using a lot of her perceived upper hand in this relationship and now is seeking ways to maintain that hierarchy in her mind. Maybe not such a great friend?

FYI I am FIRE now but most of my career was running my own business as a sole proprietor/self-employed/freelancer. And a lot of my evolution was learning how to increase cash flow via correct rates, billing, etc. Another way your wife can think about things like this is with a retainer or a per project fee. That’s actually one of the IRS tests: hourly is not ideal for independent contractor since the customer cannot control the hours of work.

jeromedawg

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2022, 04:17:40 PM »
Good to hear you guys are taking all of this advice to heart. Man I’m getting so triggered by your wife’s friend. There is absolutely no reason to use the language she is using unless she’s talking about an employee. She really needs to be educated on this. It seems to me like she’s using a lot of her perceived upper hand in this relationship and now is seeking ways to maintain that hierarchy in her mind. Maybe not such a great friend?

FYI I am FIRE now but most of my career was running my own business as a sole proprietor/self-employed/freelancer. And a lot of my evolution was learning how to increase cash flow via correct rates, billing, etc. Another way your wife can think about things like this is with a retainer or a per project fee. That’s actually one of the IRS tests: hourly is not ideal for independent contractor since the customer cannot control the hours of work.


She is much older than the both of us and has had to become the breadwinner of her household (husband became disabled with heart condition preventing him from working probably 15-20 years ago or so). So I think, engrained in her, is the mentality to "be in charge" and "take the lead" for nearly everything. I'm sure there's no exception to this rule when it comes to work relationships. Although, my wife pointed out that the financial planner's IT guy increased his rates as well.
\\
Anyway, I think you're right in that she appears to be controlling the situation as much as possible while still "being a friend" - it's hard navigating these kinds of things other than to walk away and pursue other things. That's the issue though - my wife likely wouldn't do this on her own volition. She's not an opportunity seeker... she'll wait for opportunities to come to her and then take whatever she can. The same thing sort of happened with her other admin assistant position with a remodeling company. I feel like they kind of lowballed her on the rate as well (which started at $22 IIRC and increased to $25 after her 'probationary' period). She seems happy enough this rate but per my prodding was a bit more aggressive on negotiating the terms. I can't recall if she's a 1099 contractor for this remodeling company or if she's just considered a part time employee but I think it might be the latter.  Again, I think she (and myself) are quite 'conditioned' to being W2 employees so this is a bit new territory for us. I think we have trouble fully reconciling rates and how value is intrinsically tied to whatever rate we might establish for ourselves. And this is outside of even having to justify it to a potential client... but looking at this from a "per project" perspective does make a little more sense though. Again, I think we might have some trouble with formally establishing something like that. Are good specific resources for this kind of stuff?


BTW: I really don't understand this consultant review form. My wife said she had to go through a bit of a process to onboard. The financial planner is a principal at one of the larger investment firms, so I guess that may complicate things in that my wife *appears* to work for that larger firm while contracting for the financial planner. She has had to go through all the FINRA stuff. So I don't know if that has any bearing on how the financial planner is approaching this....
« Last Edit: August 22, 2022, 07:04:27 PM by jeromedawg »

lutorm

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2022, 09:11:07 PM »
I agree with those that say this smells like an employer-employee relationship.

If your consultant says they are raising their rates, there are really only two valid responses: a) "Your services aren't worth that much to me. Good luck in the future." or b) "Your services are worth that much to me, so OK." Somehow implying that you have control over what rate they charge would seem to strongly imply that you think of them as an employee but don't want to pay their employment taxes.

Of course, whether your wife should push for this obviously depends on whether she needs this particular job or not. If you're not willing to walk away, you don't have a very strong negotiating position.

jeromedawg

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2022, 10:20:22 PM »
Somehow implying that you have control over what rate they charge would seem to strongly imply that you think of them as an employee but don't want to pay their employment taxes.


Does is this the 'ethics' issue that can ultimately lead to issues with IRS involvement/court cases per Fru-Gal's earlier statement?

Fru-Gal

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2022, 11:53:12 PM »
Actually I don’t think it smells like an employee relationship it’s just at the person contracting her services is making some classic mistakes she should avoid. It makes me sad when people say that in some respects your wife can’t walk away. Clearly she is in a very strong position both macroeconomically (worker shortage) and in terms of the fact that this is a four year relationship where she clearly is providing a lot of utility to her client while not doing an onerous amount of work.

It is true that large corporations sometimes want to limit their exposure to independent contractors for exactly the reasons listed in the IRS test. So sometimes they will make you invoice another subcontractor company so they have fewer contractors to pay. Not clear to me from your response if this is the case. But frankly the FINRA stuff might mean your wife is doing even more specialized work. Why not look around and see what the going rates are for this kind of service?

On the positive side the fact that the company pays regularly is good. One drawback of self-employment is sometimes even massive companies can have very slow pace schedules or try to stiff their contractors. A good book about all this is something called the pumpkin plan. That’s where I got the fire your bad customers concept.*

*Haha just checked the reviews and it sounds like that is the main thesis of the book. So maybe get a library copy…
« Last Edit: August 23, 2022, 12:00:04 AM by Fru-Gal »

jeromedawg

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2022, 09:33:18 AM »
Actually I don’t think it smells like an employee relationship it’s just at the person contracting her services is making some classic mistakes she should avoid. It makes me sad when people say that in some respects your wife can’t walk away. Clearly she is in a very strong position both macroeconomically (worker shortage) and in terms of the fact that this is a four year relationship where she clearly is providing a lot of utility to her client while not doing an onerous amount of work.

It is true that large corporations sometimes want to limit their exposure to independent contractors for exactly the reasons listed in the IRS test. So sometimes they will make you invoice another subcontractor company so they have fewer contractors to pay. Not clear to me from your response if this is the case. But frankly the FINRA stuff might mean your wife is doing even more specialized work. Why not look around and see what the going rates are for this kind of service?

On the positive side the fact that the company pays regularly is good. One drawback of self-employment is sometimes even massive companies can have very slow pace schedules or try to stiff their contractors. A good book about all this is something called the pumpkin plan. That’s where I got the fire your bad customers concept.*

*Haha just checked the reviews and it sounds like that is the main thesis of the book. So maybe get a library copy…


I think it's a combination of multiple things that prevents my wife from just getting up and walking away: the thought of having to look for other work to begin with, the "flexibility" and "comfortability" of working for this friend, and perhaps the thought that her leaving would be akin to 'abandoning her friend'
She was relatively close to this friend even before working for her, so I think it would disrupt their friendship a great amount.
At the same time, I keep telling her that she *should* be questioning her friend's integrity if she's making more or less a fuss out of paying her $300 more a year for what she has been doing...

I'm still not sure on their arrangement but all I know is that my wife "submits her logged hours" (maybe this is her invoicing the financial planner)? And the financial planner sends her a check shortly after.

I think I may look around on behalf of my wife. But as I mentioned at the beginning, there are several factors that make her just want to stay. My wife is probably one of the most risk-averse people out there too - she won't initiate most things on her own (unless absolutely forced to out of some dire necessity) and she certainly will avoid all risk by taking no risk if it's possible. So something like leaving this position would be very difficult for her to do given all that as well. However, if she gets to the point where she thinks the financial planner is being unreasonable (which is ultimately what it may get to), then she may realize it's not worth continuing to work for her. Of course, this would likely need to coincide with my wife finding another and better opportunity.

Villanelle

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2022, 11:56:23 AM »
I agree with those that say this smells like an employer-employee relationship.

If your consultant says they are raising their rates, there are really only two valid responses: a) "Your services aren't worth that much to me. Good luck in the future." or b) "Your services are worth that much to me, so OK." Somehow implying that you have control over what rate they charge would seem to strongly imply that you think of them as an employee but don't want to pay their employment taxes.

Of course, whether your wife should push for this obviously depends on whether she needs this particular job or not. If you're not willing to walk away, you don't have a very strong negotiating position.

IDK about this.  I'm a freelance writer.  If I say, "I no longer what to do this work for $25 and would like $30" and my contractee says, "I am only willing to pay $28 for it", that seems in line with the IC role.  Being an IC, or hiring an IC, doesn't mean you can't negotiate, does it?  Just as you can negotiate any other product or service.  That doesn't mean the employer has control over what the IC charges, but they do have control over what they will pay. 

lutorm

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2022, 01:59:10 PM »
I agree with those that say this smells like an employer-employee relationship.

If your consultant says they are raising their rates, there are really only two valid responses: a) "Your services aren't worth that much to me. Good luck in the future." or b) "Your services are worth that much to me, so OK." Somehow implying that you have control over what rate they charge would seem to strongly imply that you think of them as an employee but don't want to pay their employment taxes.

Of course, whether your wife should push for this obviously depends on whether she needs this particular job or not. If you're not willing to walk away, you don't have a very strong negotiating position.

IDK about this.  I'm a freelance writer.  If I say, "I no longer what to do this work for $25 and would like $30" and my contractee says, "I am only willing to pay $28 for it", that seems in line with the IC role.  Being an IC, or hiring an IC, doesn't mean you can't negotiate, does it?  Just as you can negotiate any other product or service.  That doesn't mean the employer has control over what the IC charges, but they do have control over what they will pay.
Yeah, agree. They're of course free to negotiate, the salient difference is what the "default" is. With an employee, it's the employee that has to walk if they can't agree, with an IC it's the contractee that has to make the decision to not continue the relationship.

jeromedawg

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #31 on: August 23, 2022, 04:45:29 PM »
So I looked at the 'average' for what a financial admin assistant gets paid and it's less than what my wife gets paid. Does this mean that she really can't be asking for that much more or that her asking for even more is pretty unreasonable despite the fact that the rate she is at has stayed the same for the past four years?

Fru-Gal

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #32 on: August 23, 2022, 06:06:11 PM »
Absolutely not. Look at it this way: the average American is not planning to be financially independent anytime soon. Does that mean you should not plan to do so either?

She’s doing quality work in a specialized field. This can be as big or as small a negotiation as you want to make it. But I believe in evolving. So I think she’s taken a step in that direction and might as well explore what would be an incremental improvement.

Catbert

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2022, 10:41:15 AM »
Jeromedawg - I think you said earlier that she works relatively few hours every month.  How many people would be willing to take the job with some specific skills for so few hours a month?  I'm guessing not many.  Also with inflation at ~8% whatever figures you're looking at are likely too low for now.

Miss Piggy

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2022, 11:17:20 AM »
So I looked at the 'average' for what a financial admin assistant gets paid and it's less than what my wife gets paid. Does this mean that she really can't be asking for that much more or that her asking for even more is pretty unreasonable despite the fact that the rate she is at has stayed the same for the past four years?

Average in your geographic area?

No, her request is not unreasonable. I'm guessing those "averages" include people who ALSO get benefits.

Villanelle

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2022, 12:49:46 PM »
So I looked at the 'average' for what a financial admin assistant gets paid and it's less than what my wife gets paid. Does this mean that she really can't be asking for that much more or that her asking for even more is pretty unreasonable despite the fact that the rate she is at has stayed the same for the past four years?

Average in your geographic area?

No, her request is not unreasonable. I'm guessing those "averages" include people who ALSO get benefits.

This is a super important point and goes beyond just traditional benefits.  $25 for an IC is much, much less than $25 for an employee.   UI, PTO, any kind of 401k, paid breaks, and so many other things are savings to the contractee when they don't hire an employee.  So an employee who is paid $25 is better paid than an IC who bills $25.

BlueHouse

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #36 on: August 27, 2022, 07:23:35 PM »
So I looked at the 'average' for what a financial admin assistant gets paid and it's less than what my wife gets paid. Does this mean that she really can't be asking for that much more or that her asking for even more is pretty unreasonable despite the fact that the rate she is at has stayed the same for the past four years?

Average in your geographic area?

No, her request is not unreasonable. I'm guessing those "averages" include people who ALSO get benefits.

This is a super important point and goes beyond just traditional benefits.  $25 for an IC is much, much less than $25 for an employee.   UI, PTO, any kind of 401k, paid breaks, and so many other things are savings to the contractee when they don't hire an employee.  So an employee who is paid $25 is better paid than an IC who bills $25.

Could your wife support herself on $25/hour if she were full time?  Probably not.  ICs have to pay self-employment tax too, so the friend is likely not thinking about fringe benefits or taxes when paying your wife.

As to asking for increases, all of my contracts had escalation rates identified in the contract.  3% escalation per year was the standard over the past 10 years.

Smokystache

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #37 on: August 28, 2022, 07:05:13 AM »
The slightly snarky answer is that your wife should simply slow down how quickly she completes the work and then "poof" she magically gets a raise. If this sounds a little ridiculous -- it should. But in my opinion, hourly billing for a position like this is equally ridiculous. For example, if your wife found an app or spreadsheet that allowed her to do her job twice as fast, why would she ever want to use it? She would get paid half as much and yet her "employer" would get the same value of work (actually the employer would get more value because the work could be done faster).

I would encourage you to completely shift your thinking on this. And it starts with hourly billing. Here are some possible steps to consider.

1) Have your wife have a face-to-face meeting with her friend. "Thank you so much for the opportunity to help you ... I'm curious if there are other things I can take off your full-time assistant hands that would free her up for in-office duties.Or are their seasonal or one-time per year projects that I could take over? Tell me about those and why they are important to your business? What is involved in those projects/duties."  Be looking for projects that can be done ahead of time (asynchronous) and that your wife can take complete ownership of (minimal collaboration with other staff, etc.) - also projects that are really, really important (valuable) to the employer.  Just as an example, maybe the employer sends out Holiday cards or fruit baskets to her clients each year. Can I compile the list, provide you with 3 options of different gift baskets, and handle the ordering process. Also ask about projects that have been sitting on the shelf because there isn't enough time: "Is there a big project you've always liked to do, but didn't have time and it is something within my skill-set? Perhaps compiling a list of all the accountants in the county because..."

2) Compile a list of these projects. Provide a brief description of what your wife would do to complete them. Review this with employer/friend and make sure you have an accurate view of the scope of the project. Make a mental note of which projects the employer sounds really excited about. Now make revisions to the list and re-submit it with a flat price listed next to each project. Also include a reminder of the value of each project. "This project is important because of the ability to solicit new clients" etc. Bonus points if you can actually determine a rough numerical ROI of the project.

3) Ignore how many hours it will take your wife to complete the task. Focus entirely on how much value it will provide the employer. Remember the previous example of getting a new app and doing something twice as fast -- your wife should not be penalized because of how quickly she can complete a project.

4) As mentioned, next to each project, place a price. This is what you will pay me to complete this project by this deadline. Do not mention how long you think it will take to complete or anything about hours or hourly rates. The question to the employer is simply: "Is it worth it to you for me to get this done for this price?"   If the task is an ongoing one (it sounds like several of her current tasks are monthly/regular), it is ok to provide a monthly fee. But again, this should not be based on her hours spent on the task. "If the employer asks, how long will this take you?" your wife can say, "I'm not exactly sure, but I'm happy to do it for this price. The great thing for you(employer) is that you know exactly what your costs will be. Don't you hate it when someone gives you an estimate for a job and then they say 'we ran into problems, it's going to take twice as long' - that won't happen because my prices are fixed per project." 

Of course, this will mean your wife needs to have a really good idea of how long something will take. But she should NOT try to count up the hours and think "That will probably take me 8 hours, so I should price it at $200". Instead, she should think "This will take about 8 hours, so $240 is the minimum I'd do this task for -- but she said this is a project that could make her $20,000 so I should price it at $500-1000. That is a fair trade of my time and skills for value I'm providing to her."

This is a critical mindset shift that contract/1099 workers need to have. Do NOT simply try to be an hourly worker who doesn't get benefits and other perks.  Sell yourself as a professional that helps with important initiatives, not as a temp worker who fills in the gaps because the FT assistant is really busy. Now, if your wife can find a faster, more efficient way to complete the task, then everyone wins. She works fewer hours and the client likely gets the project done sooner. If your wife can streamline these tasks over time, then great. And the employer/friend gains a huge benefit and knows exactly what her costs will be instead of possibly arguing with your wife about how long a task should take.

For example, I have clients pay me $280 for something that takes me 5 minutes. But the way it is set up, they are happy to pay it. In fact, 97% of my clients sign up again each year. That's because it provides something of value to them and they don't care how I do it. I don't have a special skill like a brain surgeon or anything, but I've learned how to do this task very, very efficiently. They don't care, they just love that their price is actually lower than my competitors.

If you find this perspective interesting or infuriating, I would encourage you to read anything by Jonathan Stark. Here are his free resources: https://jonathanstark.com/free


Fru-Gal

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #38 on: August 28, 2022, 08:36:28 AM »
The answer above is pure gold! This is why I keep on checking MMM forums. There is pure life-changing gold here. From Jonathan Stark‘s website:

Quote
The unconscious acceptance of hourly billing as the best and only option for selling services is a collective hallucination that literally keeps me up at night. In fact, I consider it my mission in life to rid the earth of hourly billing

I will be using the information on his site to refine my marketing and pricing for my passion project. This is stuff that I already know and practice but I love how he has refined it and there’s a lot I can learn from him.

Thank you thank you thank you @Smokystache and @jeromedawg!

Smokystache

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #39 on: August 28, 2022, 08:48:31 AM »
The answer above is pure gold! This is why I keep on checking MMM forums. There is pure life-changing gold here. From Jonathan Stark‘s website:

Quote
The unconscious acceptance of hourly billing as the best and only option for selling services is a collective hallucination that literally keeps me up at night. In fact, I consider it my mission in life to rid the earth of hourly billing

I will be using the information on his site to refine my marketing and pricing for my passion project. This is stuff that I already know and practice but I love how he has refined it and there’s a lot I can learn from him.

Thank you thank you thank you @Smokystache and @jeromedawg!

Glad it is helpful. It completely blew my mind and changed my business model. Stark has some e-books and a couple of podcasts - I've found Ditching Hourly and The Business of Authority to be the two most helpful for me.

mistymoney

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #40 on: August 28, 2022, 10:19:37 AM »
thanks for this discussion.

for my side project, I have an internal hourly rate that I tell no one. When pricing a job, I estimate the hourly input by my rate and quote the job. My projects are annually repeated so I've had the same 4-5 projects each yeaar for the same price, but my time input is much less because I've put together all my templates and processing etc.

Because I've become more efficient, I've hesitated to raise the prices but want to do so for 2023. It is easy to do for any new projects, of which I haven't had any, but like OP mentions, if can be awkward as a solopreneur to redo pricing structures with existing clients. In my case, this was not a personal acquaintences but professional contact who needed additional help and reached out to me with a "do you or anyone you know want to....".

So - on one hand, the high inflation has been hidden from no one, I'm sure most vendors are raising rates so they can raise salaries and keep their experienced labor force. No one should be surprised by that. For OP's wife, it is rather insulting that this person is surprised by the ask, and I think it does indicate a lack of apprecition for the work. 4 years at the same rate with inflationary pressures around 10% during any of that time? Common!

On the other hand, raising rates can make the relationship come under more scrutiny. Any dissatisfactions with the work that the client may have experienced and put aside may bubble up if I try to raise rates. While the quality of my work has been 100%, since this is a side job at times I've been slow to respond as I didn't see emails. Taken longer on deliverables than I should have too. I've encouraged calling/texting my cell if they don't get a response, but people seem to always forget that, they email and then are bother about a lack of response. It is a lack of professionalism on my part, I own that and have done better! The side job is important to me. But if I raise rates, it may make them relook at that lapse.

Additional, raising rates could spur them on to look at alternate venues for the work. Maybe internal resources have increased - or there is another vendor relationship they could roll this into that they didn't have previously. Any of that could result in the job being pulled just because I called their attention to and they realized they could leverage a savings rebundling it with other work. It may be that they already know about this alternate venue, would prefer to do that, but feel awkward on their side terminating the relationship when I have delivered 100% quality to them. Raising rates could eliminate that reticence!

Then again - they could respond to raising rates by: shesh of course! what took you so long! everybody raised rates!

So I'm thinking carefully about how to approach this, and how to price it. Since my work is project based, I want to pick a price I will be happy with for at least the next 3 years - so that would encompass inflation since I first priced the work 2 years ago, plus anticipated inflation over the next 3 years.

Just looked at my rates, and not sure I can do it! Raise them that much. I do think it would really jeapordize the job to raise that much.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2022, 10:25:26 AM by mistymoney »

mistymoney

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #41 on: August 28, 2022, 10:22:16 AM »
For OPs wife - would she be interested in expanding her client base, troll for new work?

Put herself out there on gig sites for admin work at 40/hour, list particular skills, her 4 year history of work, specializing in small jobs of 10 hours or less. Could be a real market for that.

Could get something and then that justifies the pricing to current client.

lifeisshort123

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #42 on: August 28, 2022, 01:58:03 PM »
I hire independent contractors regularly at work.  We hire many of them simultaneously to do the same work.  Generally speaking there is a range I am willing to pay for the position.  I most likely would not be willing to pay outside of that range, regardless of what they make at other gigs they do.

Sometimes, both sides have to figure out each other’s language.  I remember one guy I hired, he would ALWAYS want to be paid per event, and I wanted to pay per hour.  He was convinced that he was making more with the way he was billing me.  I had to sit him down and show him it was basically a wash, and in fact I was paying him $2 more over the duration of the contract than he had asked for with his “per event” charge.

Sometimes, the two sides are too far apart.  If I can pay $52/hr for the job, I don’t care that someone else in the past paid you $82/hr for the job. 

Fru-Gal

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #43 on: August 28, 2022, 02:09:34 PM »
I’ve been on both sides of this (hiring as well as billing). I agree that when you’re in business you find there’s a sweet spot for example if you’re billing a corporation for knowledge work, I found that anything under $5000 was relatively easy to get through. But usually over $5000 required higher-up approval. (Those numbers may have changed because the last part of my career I was employed.)

My best scenarios were when I set up retainers with companies. But I’ve also been stiffed by corporations. One of the best things, which I noticed that the guy linked above mentions, is billing 100% in advance. This also is a genius approach when you provide a particular product or a menu of services with a price list. You can also do incremental payment by milestone.

It’s critical to change mindset so even if your client is talking hours in your mind you know how little time it takes you and you bill for that amount. This is also important because then you don’t have a mismatch where you feel guilty or like you’re robbing them. You’re not, you’re saving them time and energy.

There’s also never been an easier time to set up your business processes online using any one of myriad services that can track invoices and take payment and put it directly in your bank account. I’m old enough to remember waiting months for checks in the mail, having to make threatening phone calls, having to go in person to get paid, going directly to the client’s bank with their check to cash it as soon as possible, having the banks say there were no funds, even going with a very large man next to me to scare the client to get payment 😂, having clients say it was nice that I had this “little job” (when I was the breadwinner) but they were sure my husband could take care of everything so it didn’t matter if they didn’t pay me on time. Then I learned to fire my bad clients.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2022, 02:19:39 PM by Fru-Gal »

gooki

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #44 on: August 28, 2022, 02:18:46 PM »
So I looked at the 'average' for what a financial admin assistant gets paid and it's less than what my wife gets paid. Does this mean that she really can't be asking for that much more or that her asking for even more is pretty unreasonable despite the fact that the rate she is at has stayed the same for the past four years?

As an independent contractor a good rule of thumb is double the hourly rate of an employee.

BlueHouse

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #45 on: August 28, 2022, 07:22:17 PM »
I've worked both types of billing - project-based (deliverables / Firm-fixed price) and hourly (Time and Materials). 

Be careful offering to pay based on deliverables in this case.  Why?  Because it seems as if your wife isn't comfortable with confrontation and if the client says something else should be included in the flat fee, then will your wife be able to show how it wasn't part of the project?

This type of client (who already thinks they're doing you a favor) can be hard to please.  It's safer and usually much more lucrative to bill for your time. 

If you do decide to change your billing method to Fixed Price instead of hourly, you need to have a very detailed contract in place that specifies exactly what is expected and by what time.  I wouldn't touch this scenario with a fixed price contract.

jeromedawg

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #46 on: August 29, 2022, 11:09:53 AM »
I've worked both types of billing - project-based (deliverables / Firm-fixed price) and hourly (Time and Materials). 

Be careful offering to pay based on deliverables in this case.  Why?  Because it seems as if your wife isn't comfortable with confrontation and if the client says something else should be included in the flat fee, then will your wife be able to show how it wasn't part of the project?

This type of client (who already thinks they're doing you a favor) can be hard to please.  It's safer and usually much more lucrative to bill for your time. 

If you do decide to change your billing method to Fixed Price instead of hourly, you need to have a very detailed contract in place that specifies exactly what is expected and by what time.  I wouldn't touch this scenario with a fixed price contract.

Yeah, my wife is already fretting over the thought that the planner will give her *less* work in the case that she "approves the rate increase" - it's very difficult for my wife to get off/detach from the W2 mindset of hourly pay (or even salaried). She was kind of 'wrangled' into an Independent Contractor role at least with this financial planner. That isn't to say that she can't think outside the box and do what many here have been suggesting, but I think it's going to be a slow process and learning curve for her to think about other ways to bill clients. She has not explored other avenues by which to employ her skills really, and being as risk-averse as she is she is *extremely* timid about finding and creating new job opportunities for herself. If you were to talk about the "IT" factor with being successful, she would be the first to tell you that she doesn't have "IT" lol - there's a real lack of confidence in her own capabilities and in sometimes a self-deprecating way.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2022, 11:11:25 AM by jeromedawg »

mistymoney

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #47 on: August 29, 2022, 12:54:39 PM »
So I looked at the 'average' for what a financial admin assistant gets paid and it's less than what my wife gets paid. Does this mean that she really can't be asking for that much more or that her asking for even more is pretty unreasonable despite the fact that the rate she is at has stayed the same for the past four years?

As an independent contractor a good rule of thumb is double the hourly rate of an employee.

yes - this is important. If the average rate represents a FT employee - it includes benefits and PTO, IT and other overhead, maybe even physical office space. So as an independant contractor, that should be rolled in.

For consulting, one rule of thumb out there in the ethers was to charge client about 3x ee salary. so a third for salary, a third for overhead, and a third for profit.

I found this one way to evaluate compensation relative to market as an employee.

gooki

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #48 on: August 30, 2022, 04:55:24 AM »
Quote
She has not explored other avenues by which to employ her skills really, and being as risk-averse as she is she is *extremely* timid about finding and creating new job opportunities for herself.

And that's ok provided she's happy with the status quo.

jeromedawg

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Re: Asking for a raise as an independent contractor?
« Reply #49 on: August 30, 2022, 09:20:59 AM »
Quote
She has not explored other avenues by which to employ her skills really, and being as risk-averse as she is she is *extremely* timid about finding and creating new job opportunities for herself.

And that's ok provided she's happy with the status quo.

She's very much comfortable and is a "status quo" type of person. I often push her to think outside of the box... for myself, I'd say I try to get outside the box of status quo when possible but often find myself still in it lol

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!