Author Topic: Are we headed towards a future where Mustachian cars are not available?  (Read 8159 times)

genesismachine

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Re: Are we headed towards a future where Mustachian cars are not available?
« Reply #50 on: April 27, 2018, 05:08:41 PM »
I read the official press release and I thought their intention was to stop R&D on cars in general and let their existing lineup slowly atrophy out of existence. The long term strategy for cars was to have the Mustang and a crossover type car based on the Focus. Only 2 cars in their lineup, one of which isn't even a car.

If you look at their sales reports, they were already selling more F-series trucks than all their cars combined, I think last month's numbers were something like 80k F-series trucks and 50k cars total. That's not even counting all their other SUVs/crossovers.

Their rationale was that people don't want their cars, and the crossovers are getting so efficient in terms of mpg that they're efficient enough for most consumers. Most consumers apparently don't care about an extra 5mpg.

I was actually just looking the reports over a couple months ago wondering why on earth they still sell cars in North America, but it looks like they fixed that problem.

Life in Balance

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Re: Are we headed towards a future where Mustachian cars are not available?
« Reply #51 on: April 27, 2018, 05:45:23 PM »

only the rich will be able to afford to own cars around 2030 the cost to insure privately will be too high self driving cars are going to completely change the way we think about transportation and mindless errands we run.  you wont be going to a supermarket it will just be online and you'll get it delivered by an autonomous car.  parking lots go away we need far fewer cars in an automous car world - this is confirmation bias if you havent viewed it yet but i dont think many of his dates are too crazy he lists in this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b3ttqYDwF0

on top of that most of his predictions have been to conservative.  I find it wildly humorous when people posit that this cant happen b/c people hate change.  the world changes constantly and now is changing faster than every - when something is cheaper and more convient it wins doesnt matter if people are against it.  there isnt much change in infrastructure necessary to make a car autonomous work really well.  its coming its coming fast and it will be an exponential adoption.

Thanks for posting that link. Fascinating video.  I wonder how this type of shift in transportation and energy might affect FIRE costs.

boarder42

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Re: Are we headed towards a future where Mustachian cars are not available?
« Reply #52 on: April 27, 2018, 06:09:37 PM »
Automated electric cars lower cost for FIRE at least if any of the numbers presented are correct.

Life in Balance

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Re: Are we headed towards a future where Mustachian cars are not available?
« Reply #53 on: April 27, 2018, 06:49:00 PM »
It would also have implications for energy costs at home, healthcare, etc.  Pretty amazing.

ender

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Re: Are we headed towards a future where Mustachian cars are not available?
« Reply #54 on: April 27, 2018, 09:30:37 PM »
I like my Ford station wagon(s).

Wait, now one of them is called a crossover because "station wagons" are lame even though it's basically a wagon. Ah well.

Slow2FIRE

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Re: Are we headed towards a future where Mustachian cars are not available?
« Reply #55 on: April 27, 2018, 09:42:38 PM »
Buy a used electric car.

The prices for new batteries is dropping fast and the motors/power electronics will also get cheaper over time if any of that ever fails.  If the chassis doesn't corrode, everything else should be cheap and easy to replace for 40+ years of service life.

With few systems on an electric vehicle, it is cheap to maintain, has far fewer systems to fail (the electrical system on an all electric vehicle is probably 1/10 the complexity of the electrical system on an ICE vehicle).

BlueMR2

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Re: Are we headed towards a future where Mustachian cars are not available?
« Reply #56 on: April 28, 2018, 12:45:32 PM »
No worries if you still want a Ford.  The Mustang can be a reasonably decent car.  The 4-cyl gas mileage is decent.  I've hauled tons of stuff in even smaller less practical cars too.  Plus, can't beat a Mustang for cheap repair parts (parts costs are the big downside to the otherwise more mustache friendly Toyota/Honda).

If you don't care about brand, it's a big enough niche that somebody will keep it filled.  I just wish Elio could get their act together.  That's the car I *really* want.  Doesn't look good for them though.  Sigh.

ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

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Re: Are we headed towards a future where Mustachian cars are not available?
« Reply #57 on: April 28, 2018, 01:26:14 PM »
No worries if you still want a Ford.  The Mustang can be a reasonably decent car.  The 4-cyl gas mileage is decent.  I've hauled tons of stuff in even smaller less practical cars too.  Plus, can't beat a Mustang for cheap repair parts (parts costs are the big downside to the otherwise more mustache friendly Toyota/Honda).

If you don't care about brand, it's a big enough niche that somebody will keep it filled.  I just wish Elio could get their act together.  That's the car I *really* want.  Doesn't look good for them though.  Sigh.

How many people will really buy an Elio when they could have a lightly used Leaf for basically the same money?

BlueMR2

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Re: Are we headed towards a future where Mustachian cars are not available?
« Reply #58 on: April 28, 2018, 07:22:15 PM »
How many people will really buy an Elio when they could have a lightly used Leaf for basically the same money?

I'd take the Elio over even a brand new Leaf at the same price in a heartbeat!  Elio is so much more a driver friendly "car".  Leaf is certainly practical, but too much so.  That level of practicality sucks the fun out of driving and makes it a chore!

boarder42

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Re: Are we headed towards a future where Mustachian cars are not available?
« Reply #59 on: April 29, 2018, 05:17:42 AM »
Elio isn't even an electric car.  It should be dying.  Overstock just wasted 2.5MM dollars 12 days ago trying to keep that thing alive

Knapptyme

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Re: Are we headed towards a future where Mustachian cars are not available?
« Reply #60 on: April 29, 2018, 06:04:47 AM »

(Personally I think sedans are a worthless configuration. Why oh why would you not just get the hatchback/wagon version?!)

I agree with this sentiment as long as both in comparison have four doors. (Old coupe hatchbacks, to me, don't cut it for loading little ones.)

Slow2FIRE

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Re: Are we headed towards a future where Mustachian cars are not available?
« Reply #61 on: April 29, 2018, 12:22:23 PM »

(Personally I think sedans are a worthless configuration. Why oh why would you not just get the hatchback/wagon version?!)

I agree with this sentiment as long as both in comparison have four doors. (Old coupe hatchbacks, to me, don't cut it for loading little ones.)

I think the majority of US Americans agree with this sentiment, hence the automakers shifting production to CUVs and SUVs.  Many of the smaller CUV/SUV looked like bulky hatchbacks.  Everyone really *wants* a hatchback or station wagon, but most are either too ashamed to admit it or thoroughly programmed by the advertising to believe they shouldn't get anything that doesn't have "utility vehicle" in the model description.

We will never go back to a sedan style vehicle again, only wagons and/or hatchbacks as they are too versatile while maintaining the same (or better) fuel economy as compared to a standard sedan of similar size.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Are we headed towards a future where Mustachian cars are not available?
« Reply #62 on: April 30, 2018, 06:18:39 AM »
I think the majority of US Americans agree with this sentiment, hence the automakers shifting production to CUVs and SUVs.  Many of the smaller CUV/SUV looked like bulky hatchbacks.  Everyone really *wants* a hatchback or station wagon, but most are either too ashamed to admit it or thoroughly programmed by the advertising to believe they shouldn't get anything that doesn't have "utility vehicle" in the model description.

We will never go back to a sedan style vehicle again, only wagons and/or hatchbacks as they are too versatile while maintaining the same (or better) fuel economy as compared to a standard sedan of similar size.

I'm not too proud to admit that, in my heart of hearts, I just want a Volvo station wagon. I mean, a Polestar V60, but still ...

Dragonswan

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Re: Are we headed towards a future where Mustachian cars are not available?
« Reply #63 on: April 30, 2018, 06:20:56 AM »
I think that once the makers of self-driving cars figure out the technology to the extent that these vehicles are considered to be safe enough for regular use, most people will just stop buying cars at all.Why buy your own car if you can just order a self-driving car when you need it, through an Uber-like platform?  I predict that the price of a ride will drop pretty far if there is no need for a human driver.
Some people will still buy their own cars, but not most people.
Just my prediction.



I doubt it.  At least not in this country.  People like to possess things.  I mean why buy your own house and waste time and money on maintenance when you can rent an apartment and have everything done for you? The math doesn't always work better for owning. Houses don't always appreciate, etc. But not many people say they want to live in an apartment even if they currently do; they're just waiting until they qualify. Not exactly the same but speaks to the American mentality.

Some will adopt and many won't.  People want their own stuff.  They want to keep their stuff in their car for their convenience.  They don't want to be respectful of the fact that someone else will be getting in behind them, if they spill something or rip the seat, they don't care because they OWN it.  Muddy boots? No problem I'll clean it when I get to it not pay a fee for messing up the car or try to clean off my boots before I get in.  So I predict certain segments of society will love it (people taking mass transit, folks with suspended licenses, those with greater concern for the environment).  But folks like me that hate to drive will love the self driving car but I'm not sharing as long as I can afford not to.  Once it's electric my environmental footprint goes down enough for me to have a clear conscience. Especially if we have more solar power by then.  There is a thread about the future and self driving cars we can go to without further foaming up this one.

I need a place to live almost all the time, though.  I need a car for about 20 minutes twice a day.
Many people are in their cars a lot more than that.  Long commutes (which people might be encouraged to make longer if they can do something else during that time and have the convenience of not dealing with mass transit), shopping, sports and dance practice, salesmen, you name it.  Traffic congestion in large cities is all day strong; it's just ridiculously worse during typical commute times.

That doesn't change the argument.  For the vast majority of people, when they're not in a car they don't need a car.  You do still need a home (and that doesn't change when you leave home), unless you live out of a backpack and sleep under a tree or something.
It doesn't change the argument for you, but you're missing the point.  The American mentality isn't about only having what we need.  It's about having what we WANT and we'll justify it by any means necessary.  A mustachian thinks only buy what I need as inexpensively as possible.  Most everyone else thinks how can I get what I want without killing anyone and how cushy and convenient can I make my life.  Because the hockey gear lives in the back of the SUV and I'm not lugging it in and out of the car every time I need it.  The car seat stays too and I don't care if I have to pay for the thing over 7 years and burn down a forest.  I want what I WANT!  Make predictions based on the psyche of the group whose behavior you are making the prediction about.

For some (particularly rural) places, absolutely I agree.

Now live where I do (spitting distance from NYC) and you'll get a whole new perspective. Many of my friends don't even own a car to begin with -- on-demand autonomous cars would be a boon to this area.
Lots of activity I missed the last couple of days but I'll start here.  A quick Google search says that only about 26% of Americans are urban.  The rest of us live in suburban or rural/country areas.  I have already conceded that those who already use mass transit will get on board, that's basically the NYC segment you're talking about.  It's been a while since I was in NYC so are the streets only lines with delivery trucks and mass transit vehicles?  Or even in NYC is there a segment of the population clogging up the streets with traffic because they don't like mass transit?  Suburbia is designed to need a car and the rurals (as you conceded) will need them too.  So the mentality of the vast majority, 74% or so, is that they want to drive their own car.  I also agree with several other posters about those who just enjoy driving and those who see it as a symbol of independence.  It will take several acts of legislation and unprecedented economical upheaval to pry the car titles from the hands of Americans.

Pigeon

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Re: Are we headed towards a future where Mustachian cars are not available?
« Reply #64 on: April 30, 2018, 07:06:10 AM »
Yeah, if I lived somewhere with decent public transportation, I could see this being pretty appealing, as someone who doesn't enjoy driving and gets no particular pleasure out of cars.  But I don't.  I'm not in  walking distance to anything at all, and the nearest bus stop to a pretty bad transit system is miles away in roads with no sidewalks.  If it were a matter of using one of these self-driving cars twice a week, sign me up.  For the four people in my household making multiple trips daily, not so much.

boarder42

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Re: Are we headed towards a future where Mustachian cars are not available?
« Reply #65 on: April 30, 2018, 07:35:13 AM »
I think that once the makers of self-driving cars figure out the technology to the extent that these vehicles are considered to be safe enough for regular use, most people will just stop buying cars at all.Why buy your own car if you can just order a self-driving car when you need it, through an Uber-like platform?  I predict that the price of a ride will drop pretty far if there is no need for a human driver.
Some people will still buy their own cars, but not most people.
Just my prediction.



I doubt it.  At least not in this country.  People like to possess things.  I mean why buy your own house and waste time and money on maintenance when you can rent an apartment and have everything done for you? The math doesn't always work better for owning. Houses don't always appreciate, etc. But not many people say they want to live in an apartment even if they currently do; they're just waiting until they qualify. Not exactly the same but speaks to the American mentality.

Some will adopt and many won't.  People want their own stuff.  They want to keep their stuff in their car for their convenience.  They don't want to be respectful of the fact that someone else will be getting in behind them, if they spill something or rip the seat, they don't care because they OWN it.  Muddy boots? No problem I'll clean it when I get to it not pay a fee for messing up the car or try to clean off my boots before I get in.  So I predict certain segments of society will love it (people taking mass transit, folks with suspended licenses, those with greater concern for the environment).  But folks like me that hate to drive will love the self driving car but I'm not sharing as long as I can afford not to.  Once it's electric my environmental footprint goes down enough for me to have a clear conscience. Especially if we have more solar power by then.  There is a thread about the future and self driving cars we can go to without further foaming up this one.

I need a place to live almost all the time, though.  I need a car for about 20 minutes twice a day.
Many people are in their cars a lot more than that.  Long commutes (which people might be encouraged to make longer if they can do something else during that time and have the convenience of not dealing with mass transit), shopping, sports and dance practice, salesmen, you name it.  Traffic congestion in large cities is all day strong; it's just ridiculously worse during typical commute times.

That doesn't change the argument.  For the vast majority of people, when they're not in a car they don't need a car.  You do still need a home (and that doesn't change when you leave home), unless you live out of a backpack and sleep under a tree or something.
It doesn't change the argument for you, but you're missing the point.  The American mentality isn't about only having what we need.  It's about having what we WANT and we'll justify it by any means necessary.  A mustachian thinks only buy what I need as inexpensively as possible.  Most everyone else thinks how can I get what I want without killing anyone and how cushy and convenient can I make my life.  Because the hockey gear lives in the back of the SUV and I'm not lugging it in and out of the car every time I need it.  The car seat stays too and I don't care if I have to pay for the thing over 7 years and burn down a forest.  I want what I WANT!  Make predictions based on the psyche of the group whose behavior you are making the prediction about.

For some (particularly rural) places, absolutely I agree.

Now live where I do (spitting distance from NYC) and you'll get a whole new perspective. Many of my friends don't even own a car to begin with -- on-demand autonomous cars would be a boon to this area.
Lots of activity I missed the last couple of days but I'll start here.  A quick Google search says that only about 26% of Americans are urban.  The rest of us live in suburban or rural/country areas.  I have already conceded that those who already use mass transit will get on board, that's basically the NYC segment you're talking about.  It's been a while since I was in NYC so are the streets only lines with delivery trucks and mass transit vehicles?  Or even in NYC is there a segment of the population clogging up the streets with traffic because they don't like mass transit?  Suburbia is designed to need a car and the rurals (as you conceded) will need them too.  So the mentality of the vast majority, 74% or so, is that they want to drive their own car.  I also agree with several other posters about those who just enjoy driving and those who see it as a symbol of independence.  It will take several acts of legislation and unprecedented economical upheaval to pry the car titles from the hands of Americans.

suburbia will NOT need a car this isnt strictly an urbania solution.  You have to rethink everything you know and think you may understand about how transportation works with our grossly wasteful everyone owns and stores at least 1 car per adult situation.  in rural areas the adoption will be slower in suburban and urban areas this will spread and spread quickly.  WHY do you need a car in suburbia?  to get to the grocery store - delivery services are being started and are VERY cost effective - to get to work - automated electric cars will easily solve this problem, and ride sharing will increase for people traveling to work.  to get kids to and from activities and your self to and from events - similar to work - you'll just schedule to be picked up and the car will show up and take you.  the reason it doesnt stem to rural as quickly is just due to population density, the suburban areas of this country have the population density.  and whether people like it or not it will come quickly -

Dragonswan

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Re: Are we headed towards a future where Mustachian cars are not available?
« Reply #66 on: April 30, 2018, 07:42:09 AM »
Again, I reiterate, this isn't about need but want.  So right now people justify the want by saying they need it and list all the reasons.  When those reasons are taken away by automation, people will still want, and they are resourceful enough to come up with other reasons why they "need".  Such is the American mindset and way of life.  We are a culture of owners and possessors and culture changes slowly if at all regardless of technology.

neo von retorch

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Re: Are we headed towards a future where Mustachian cars are not available?
« Reply #67 on: April 30, 2018, 07:52:37 AM »
If you think most Americans will choose "wait for a car to show up" vs. "spend the 20 minutes it takes to load my car up with kids and stuff while tracking down the other kids and finding the shoes they just took off and hid under the couch", you haven't met enough Americans. Especially parents ;)

boarder42

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Re: Are we headed towards a future where Mustachian cars are not available?
« Reply #68 on: April 30, 2018, 07:58:48 AM »
Again, I reiterate, this isn't about need but want.  So right now people justify the want by saying they need it and list all the reasons.  When those reasons are taken away by automation, people will still want, and they are resourceful enough to come up with other reasons why they "need".  Such is the American mindset and way of life.  We are a culture of owners and possessors and culture changes slowly if at all regardless of technology.

I'd disagree and point to the rapid adoption of uber and lyft type services that have even changed the way business travelers travel(rental car useage is dropping).  This has also lead many to drop their cars in urban areas - automation makes it possible for suburban areas.  and you can want whatever you think you do but if the cost offset is large enough you can quickly be priced out of it.

i agree people resist change but i dont think it will be nearly as large as you make it seem.  and the convience and cost will drive out ownership of cars.  we'll probably see a transition period where suburban families drop to a single car household for 5-10 years vs 0 car but the avg household currently owns 2.28 cars - dropping that to 1 eliminates 57% of the cars privately held.  and it really probably drops lower than that.

Dragonswan

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Re: Are we headed towards a future where Mustachian cars are not available?
« Reply #69 on: April 30, 2018, 08:40:58 AM »
Okay then, without my time travel machine there's no way to know which outcome will prevail.  So Boarder 42 and JLee meet me back here in 15 years.  Loser pays for the winner's ride: If I win you owe me a self driving electric car, if you win, I owe you a ride in a public or corporate owned on demand vehicle. Heck make it two rides, I'll send my car to pick you up.

simonsez

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Re: Are we headed towards a future where Mustachian cars are not available?
« Reply #70 on: April 30, 2018, 08:53:54 AM »

(Personally I think sedans are a worthless configuration. Why oh why would you not just get the hatchback/wagon version?!)

I agree with this sentiment as long as both in comparison have four doors. (Old coupe hatchbacks, to me, don't cut it for loading little ones.)

I think the majority of US Americans agree with this sentiment, hence the automakers shifting production to CUVs and SUVs.  Many of the smaller CUV/SUV looked like bulky hatchbacks.  Everyone really *wants* a hatchback or station wagon, but most are either too ashamed to admit it or thoroughly programmed by the advertising to believe they shouldn't get anything that doesn't have "utility vehicle" in the model description.

We will never go back to a sedan style vehicle again, only wagons and/or hatchbacks as they are too versatile while maintaining the same (or better) fuel economy as compared to a standard sedan of similar size.
I think the handling of a sedan is better and I prefer a sealed-off trunk to store tools, purses, bags, coolers, etc. for various reasons compared to the hatchback.  However there is no denying some advantages the hatchback has but I still slightly prefer a sedan.  YM obviously V.

I'm in the minority and okay with that.  In fact, I welcome it in a sense.  Several years ago I went shopping for a Fit and came home with a Civic for a few reasons but chief among them was price.  The salesman literally told me there was no wiggle room on the Fit pricing because someone else would walk in the door later that day (IIRC they had sold 7 Fits on that Saturday when I strolled in around 1 pm) or tomorrow and pay the sticker.  I ended up with the Civic for 2k less than the Fit.

For other issues, we are a one-car household and will likely stay that way for awhile.  It's inconvenient maybe 2-3 times a month to not have another.  I'm okay with that as they're usually first world problems that go away after an hour or less.  But to go to zero would be tough.  I do love the freedom to get in my own vehicle without a moment's notice with my own stuff handy for whatever task.  I'm currently happy to pay a premium to own the single vehicle (for our WANTS and conveniences, not needs).  There's something about vacations that involve driving as well, I like taking my own vehicle knowing the history of it and what maintenance I've done or had done and in what timeframe.

Lastly, I'd expect business travelers would be the quickest to adopt something new that is efficient (especially cost-wise) and allows them to check communications while traveling.  That's not really surprising at all.  i.e. how someone travels while on business isn't really a big part of their identity but I could see how altering the more normal household aspect (the house they live in and car they drive, etc.) would be a little more inelastic or at least slower but that's JMO.

neo von retorch

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Re: Are we headed towards a future where Mustachian cars are not available?
« Reply #71 on: April 30, 2018, 09:04:36 AM »
I Google'd and Quora says that in the old days, hatchbacks were just built worse than sedans, and thus handling was better on the sedan. Most well-built cars would be indistinguishable on the track these days, though.

However, where I disagree with you is "in the minority." I look around, and there seem to be WAY more sedans than hatchbacks (in the U.S.) More on the roads. More options to buy. More on the dealer lots. Most people prefer them. Though I personally cannot imagine why. I owned exactly one and it was an excellent car to drive* and an infuriating car to use. So many basic things just do not fit inside them. I wish sedans were in the minority.

Ironically I have a similar story... in reverse. I went to test-drive a Civic Si, and ended up buying a Fit. (The Si was fun to drive, but the e-brake dug into my hips. The Fit wasn't as fun to drive, though it grew on me over time. But it was comfortable for my 6'2" frame.) Of course, being an Si, it was about $5k more than the Fit.

* It was an Acura TL-S 6MT, of course it was a delight to drive. Not because it was a sedan ;)
« Last Edit: April 30, 2018, 09:19:08 AM by neo von retorch »

JLee

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Re: Are we headed towards a future where Mustachian cars are not available?
« Reply #72 on: April 30, 2018, 09:12:31 AM »
Lots of activity I missed the last couple of days but I'll start here.  A quick Google search says that only about 26% of Americans are urban.  The rest of us live in suburban or rural/country areas.  I have already conceded that those who already use mass transit will get on board, that's basically the NYC segment you're talking about.  It's been a while since I was in NYC so are the streets only lines with delivery trucks and mass transit vehicles?  Or even in NYC is there a segment of the population clogging up the streets with traffic because they don't like mass transit?  Suburbia is designed to need a car and the rurals (as you conceded) will need them too.  So the mentality of the vast majority, 74% or so, is that they want to drive their own car.  I also agree with several other posters about those who just enjoy driving and those who see it as a symbol of independence.  It will take several acts of legislation and unprecedented economical upheaval to pry the car titles from the hands of Americans.

There are over 10,000 taxi/ride-share vehicles operating in Manhattan between 4pm and 6pm.  1/3 of them are empty.  That's over 3000 vehicles driving around waiting for a passenger -- about 150 per square mile. Empty. Considering the vast majority are in midtown/downtown, well, let's just say you can walk faster than a cab during busy periods.

Okay then, without my time travel machine there's no way to know which outcome will prevail.  So Boarder 42 and JLee meet me back here in 15 years.  Loser pays for the winner's ride: If I win you owe me a self driving electric car, if you win, I owe you a ride in a public or corporate owned on demand vehicle. Heck make it two rides, I'll send my car to pick you up.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white

Reality will be somewhere in between.  I would expect rural areas to continue driving gasoline cars (unless battery tech allows for 500+ mile ranges and fast charging) and congested cities like NYC, LA, etc to be moving towards on-demand autonomous cars.  Manhattan would be much more pleasant if most vehicles were prohibited.  If you haven't been here in a while, I have some reading for you:

https://www.wired.com/story/cost-unclog-nyc-streets/
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-new-york-traffic-manhattan-20180124-story.html
« Last Edit: April 30, 2018, 09:14:48 AM by JLee »

boarder42

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Re: Are we headed towards a future where Mustachian cars are not available?
« Reply #73 on: April 30, 2018, 10:17:46 AM »
Okay then, without my time travel machine there's no way to know which outcome will prevail.  So Boarder 42 and JLee meet me back here in 15 years.  Loser pays for the winner's ride: If I win you owe me a self driving electric car, if you win, I owe you a ride in a public or corporate owned on demand vehicle. Heck make it two rides, I'll send my car to pick you up.

the sides of this wager arent remotely fair and there arent enough specifics to actually create the bet

Dragonswan

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Re: Are we headed towards a future where Mustachian cars are not available?
« Reply #74 on: April 30, 2018, 02:37:54 PM »
Well then. Let's create some.  If by December 31, 2033 there is <1 owned car per household in America and over 90 % of cars on the road are fully automated (no human lawfully required) then you guys win.  Otherwise I win. Actually, I was just kidding and using that as a way to say let's agree to disagree and stop the foam.

JLee

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Re: Are we headed towards a future where Mustachian cars are not available?
« Reply #75 on: April 30, 2018, 04:11:00 PM »
Well then. Let's create some.  If by December 31, 2033 there is <1 owned car per household in America and over 90 % of cars on the road are fully automated (no human lawfully required) then you guys win.  Otherwise I win. Actually, I was just kidding and using that as a way to say let's agree to disagree and stop the foam.

If you recall the contexts we were discussing, we're halfway there already.

https://www.nycedc.com/blog-entry/new-yorkers-and-cars

23% of households in Manhattan own a car.

ltt

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Re: Are we headed towards a future where Mustachian cars are not available?
« Reply #76 on: April 30, 2018, 06:16:19 PM »
Ford makes an absolutely fantastic truck.  I've never heard any complaints about their trucks, period.  They are going to make what sells. 

BlueMR2

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Re: Are we headed towards a future where Mustachian cars are not available?
« Reply #77 on: April 30, 2018, 06:27:03 PM »
We will never go back to a sedan style vehicle again, only wagons and/or hatchbacks as they are too versatile while maintaining the same (or better) fuel economy as compared to a standard sedan of similar size.

Funny.  We have 2 hatchbacks in our fleet now and I don't ever want another one.  I get no extra utility out of the hatch, but do have to live with the extra noise/rattle and the leaks...  Hatches, just like sunroofs and T-tops always seem to leak.

I want small 2-door, 2 seat commuter cars.  Hauling around the extra bulk of a sedan is really annoying to me as someone without kids.

Dragonswan

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Well then. Let's create some.  If by December 31, 2033 there is <1 owned car per household in America and over 90 % of cars on the road are fully automated (no human lawfully required) then you guys win.  Otherwise I win. Actually, I was just kidding and using that as a way to say let's agree to disagree and stop the foam.

If you recall the contexts we were discussing, we're halfway there already.

https://www.nycedc.com/blog-entry/new-yorkers-and-cars

23% of households in Manhattan own a car.
I hate to break it to a NYC slicker, but NYC is not the center of the universe.  It is a typical.  You're going to have to use nationwide statistics to declare even a partial victory.

alsoknownasDean

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We'll see what happens when gas inevitably goes up in price. Relying on selling big thirsty vehicles at the expense of smaller cars has hurt US carmakers in the past when fuel prices increased.

From what it's worth, I don't think Nissan sell any cars here in Aus any more aside from the 370Z and GT-R.

JLee

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Well then. Let's create some.  If by December 31, 2033 there is <1 owned car per household in America and over 90 % of cars on the road are fully automated (no human lawfully required) then you guys win.  Otherwise I win. Actually, I was just kidding and using that as a way to say let's agree to disagree and stop the foam.

If you recall the contexts we were discussing, we're halfway there already.

https://www.nycedc.com/blog-entry/new-yorkers-and-cars

23% of households in Manhattan own a car.
I hate to break it to a NYC slicker, but NYC is not the center of the universe.  It is a typical.  You're going to have to use nationwide statistics to declare even a partial victory.

That's why I was talking about dense cities in the first place, not the entire country. You seem incapable of recognizing that this is not an either/or situation. ~80% of the population lives in cities and solutions that are practical for people who live in bumfucknowhereville are not practical for people who live in densely populated areas, and vice versa.

We'll see what happens when gas inevitably goes up in price. Relying on selling big thirsty vehicles at the expense of smaller cars has hurt US carmakers in the past when fuel prices increased.

From what it's worth, I don't think Nissan sell any cars here in Aus any more aside from the 370Z and GT-R.

Modern crossovers are not "big thirsty vehicles."

Dragonswan

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Well then. Let's create some.  If by December 31, 2033 there is <1 owned car per household in America and over 90 % of cars on the road are fully automated (no human lawfully required) then you guys win.  Otherwise I win. Actually, I was just kidding and using that as a way to say let's agree to disagree and stop the foam.

If you recall the contexts we were discussing, we're halfway there already.

https://www.nycedc.com/blog-entry/new-yorkers-and-cars

23% of households in Manhattan own a car.
I hate to break it to a NYC slicker, but NYC is not the center of the universe.  It is a typical.  You're going to have to use nationwide statistics to declare even a partial victory.

That's why I was talking about dense cities in the first place, not the entire country. You seem incapable of recognizing that this is not an either/or situation. ~80% of the population lives in cities and solutions that are practical for people who live in bumfucknowhereville are not practical for people who live in densely populated areas, and vice versa.

We'll see what happens when gas inevitably goes up in price. Relying on selling big thirsty vehicles at the expense of smaller cars has hurt US carmakers in the past when fuel prices increased.

From what it's worth, I don't think Nissan sell any cars here in Aus any more aside from the 370Z and GT-R.

Modern crossovers are not "big thirsty vehicles."
I don't know where you are getting your statistics from but the search I did says only 26% of the population is urban.  The rest is suburban or rural.  So if you're calling suburbia cities, yes that's true but they aren't the densely populated urban area you want to keep going back to.  Anyway, I'm done talking about this.  Let's agree to disagree since the future cannot be known until it gets here, it can only be speculated. 

JLee

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Well then. Let's create some.  If by December 31, 2033 there is <1 owned car per household in America and over 90 % of cars on the road are fully automated (no human lawfully required) then you guys win.  Otherwise I win. Actually, I was just kidding and using that as a way to say let's agree to disagree and stop the foam.

If you recall the contexts we were discussing, we're halfway there already.

https://www.nycedc.com/blog-entry/new-yorkers-and-cars

23% of households in Manhattan own a car.
I hate to break it to a NYC slicker, but NYC is not the center of the universe.  It is a typical.  You're going to have to use nationwide statistics to declare even a partial victory.

That's why I was talking about dense cities in the first place, not the entire country. You seem incapable of recognizing that this is not an either/or situation. ~80% of the population lives in cities and solutions that are practical for people who live in bumfucknowhereville are not practical for people who live in densely populated areas, and vice versa.

We'll see what happens when gas inevitably goes up in price. Relying on selling big thirsty vehicles at the expense of smaller cars has hurt US carmakers in the past when fuel prices increased.

From what it's worth, I don't think Nissan sell any cars here in Aus any more aside from the 370Z and GT-R.

Modern crossovers are not "big thirsty vehicles."
I don't know where you are getting your statistics from but the search I did says only 26% of the population is urban.  The rest is suburban or rural.  So if you're calling suburbia cities, yes that's true but they aren't the densely populated urban area you want to keep going back to.  Anyway, I'm done talking about this.  Let's agree to disagree since the future cannot be known until it gets here, it can only be speculated.

https://www.citylab.com/equity/2012/03/us-urban-population-what-does-urban-really-mean/1589/

I don't think we actually disagree - we're talking about very different things.

boarder42

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Agree to disagree is what you say when you lose. Suburbia is a part of the urban areas for all intents and purposes. Thru the article quoted above.automated cars allow the "taxi" to conviently and affordably extend to 80 % of the population. If you live in BFE it will take a bit longer but not a 500 mile range battery to get you off ICE.

dragoncar

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Letís agree to agree that youíre wrong and Iím right

BookLoverL

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I don't think they are planning to ban legs, bikes, or public transport.

caracarn

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So I came across this morning a new option by car makers, first one to release is Cadillac.  You can now subscribe to a car.  The cost includes insurance and maintenance so for a monthly fee you cover all car costs except the fuel.  Cost wise it looks like a very poor bet (for the consumer) which is not surprising because these guys are not looking to give cars away.  At $2,000/month it seems like you could do much better in some other way, but for lazy folks who just want to not think about money, I'm sure all these guys will get some activity.

http://money.cnn.com/2018/05/01/technology/car-subscription/index.html
« Last Edit: May 02, 2018, 06:14:59 AM by caracarn »

dragoncar

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So I came across this morning a new option by car makers, first one to release is Cadillac.  You can now subscribe to a car.  The cost includes insurance and maintenance so for a monthly fee you cover all car costs except the fuel.  Cost wise it looks like a very poor bet (for the consumer) which is not surprising because these guys are not looking to give cars away.  At $2,000/month it seems like you could do much better in some other way, but for lazy folks who just want to not think about money, I'm sure all these guys will get some activity.

I went to an event for www.us.audiondemand.com, which is basically an expensive rental service where they will bring the car to you and pick it up when you are done.  I went for the free wine and cupcakes.  Didnít rent any $1000/day cars

JLee

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So I came across this morning a new option by car makers, first one to release is Cadillac.  You can now subscribe to a car.  The cost includes insurance and maintenance so for a monthly fee you cover all car costs except the fuel.  Cost wise it looks like a very poor bet (for the consumer) which is not surprising because these guys are not looking to give cars away.  At $2,000/month it seems like you could do much better in some other way, but for lazy folks who just want to not think about money, I'm sure all these guys will get some activity.

http://money.cnn.com/2018/05/01/technology/car-subscription/index.html

If by "lazy folks" you mean people with far more money than time and/or a company that will pay for their car, then sure.  I don't expect all that many people spending $2k/mo on their car are "lazy."

Volvo does this as well, at a much lower price point. https://www.engadget.com/2018/03/02/volvo-xc40-care-by-volvo-hands-on/

ketchup

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So I came across this morning a new option by car makers, first one to release is Cadillac.  You can now subscribe to a car.  The cost includes insurance and maintenance so for a monthly fee you cover all car costs except the fuel.  Cost wise it looks like a very poor bet (for the consumer) which is not surprising because these guys are not looking to give cars away.  At $2,000/month it seems like you could do much better in some other way, but for lazy folks who just want to not think about money, I'm sure all these guys will get some activity.

http://money.cnn.com/2018/05/01/technology/car-subscription/index.html

If by "lazy folks" you mean people with far more money than time and/or a company that will pay for their car, then sure.  I don't expect all that many people spending $2k/mo on their car are "lazy."

Volvo does this as well, at a much lower price point. https://www.engadget.com/2018/03/02/volvo-xc40-care-by-volvo-hands-on/
Hyundai is starting something too, and cheaper than Volvo: https://www.hyundaiusa.com/unlimited-plus

JLee

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So I came across this morning a new option by car makers, first one to release is Cadillac.  You can now subscribe to a car.  The cost includes insurance and maintenance so for a monthly fee you cover all car costs except the fuel.  Cost wise it looks like a very poor bet (for the consumer) which is not surprising because these guys are not looking to give cars away.  At $2,000/month it seems like you could do much better in some other way, but for lazy folks who just want to not think about money, I'm sure all these guys will get some activity.

http://money.cnn.com/2018/05/01/technology/car-subscription/index.html

If by "lazy folks" you mean people with far more money than time and/or a company that will pay for their car, then sure.  I don't expect all that many people spending $2k/mo on their car are "lazy."

Volvo does this as well, at a much lower price point. https://www.engadget.com/2018/03/02/volvo-xc40-care-by-volvo-hands-on/
Hyundai is starting something too, and cheaper than Volvo: https://www.hyundaiusa.com/unlimited-plus

I hadn't seen that yet - thanks!

boarder42

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thats the start of the business model they'll likely use to deploy self driving cars where they carry the insurance and still technically own the car so we dont have to have the debate about who is responsible for the wreck the mfg or the person who owns the car.

dragoncar

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thats the start of the business model they'll likely use to deploy self driving cars where they carry the insurance and still technically own the car so we dont have to have the debate about who is responsible for the wreck the mfg or the person who owns the car.

I wonder if their insurance levels will be adequate to protect a mustachian

sol

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You can now subscribe to a car.  The cost includes insurance and maintenance so for a monthly fee you cover all car costs except the fuel... At $2,000/month it seems like you could do much better

If they included fuel in the cost, then it would be a pretty decent deal as long as you're always getting a new car every year.  The average cost to own and operate a new car is about $10k/year anyway, when you figure in depreciation, and it's higher in the first year than in any subsequent year because of that big initial hit of depreciation when a new car loses 30% of its value the moment you drive it off the lot.

I have no desire to drive a new car every year, but for someone who does, this model probably makes sense.  If the alternative is to buy a new $50k car every year and then sell it for $35k a year later, why not just pay 12k/year in rental fees instead and avoid the hassle of buying and selling?  You could go your entire life without ever again seeing an odometer over 10k miles.  Sweet luxury!

Also, no more dirty used steering wheels.

JLee

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You can now subscribe to a car.  The cost includes insurance and maintenance so for a monthly fee you cover all car costs except the fuel... At $2,000/month it seems like you could do much better

If they included fuel in the cost, then it would be a pretty decent deal as long as you're always getting a new car every year.  The average cost to own and operate a new car is about $10k/year anyway, when you figure in depreciation, and it's higher in the first year than in any subsequent year because of that big initial hit of depreciation when a new car loses 30% of its value the moment you drive it off the lot.

I have no desire to drive a new car every year, but for someone who does, this model probably makes sense.  If the alternative is to buy a new $50k car every year and then sell it for $35k a year later, why not just pay 12k/year in rental fees instead and avoid the hassle of buying and selling?  You could go your entire life without ever again seeing an odometer over 10k miles.  Sweet luxury!

Also, no more dirty used steering wheels.

Considering the Cadillac offering is not generally for $50k vehicles, it's not a terrible price ($1800/mo) for what it actually is.

Quote
Your BOOK by Cadillac subscription includes the following benefits. 18 vehicle exchanges within 12 months of initial signup, Access to BOOK by Cadillac's fleet of high-end luxury vehicles (based on availability), insurance, routine maintenance and repairs, vehicle registration costs, OnStar, Sirius XM, 4G LTE, and State and local taxes.

https://www.bookbycadillac.com/collection/

According to this link, all offerings are top-level trim.

A Platinum-trim 4wd Escalade starts at $96,090. CT6? $87,290.

In the world of nearly-$100k cars, it may not be all that far off from buying a new one every year.  Then consider you can swap out vehicles 18 times a year and never have to pay for registration, insurance, taxes, etc? Want an Escalade for a family trip? Bam, go get one.  CTS-V for performance luxury when you get back? One magically shows up, freshly detailed and ready to go.

Now..would I do it? hahah no.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2018, 12:07:05 PM by JLee »

boarder42

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doing some quick math on the escalades -

you're talking about 2k in my area for property taxes plus another 2k in sales tax if your changing annually plus anther 2k or so in insurance.  add to that if you're changing a car every year and you're losing just 15% of its value - you're about breaking even after all of that plus you dont have to worry about anything with the car and can swap out to a different car.  not a mustachian move but i can see why some people would believe this to be a deal.

caracarn

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So I came across this morning a new option by car makers, first one to release is Cadillac.  You can now subscribe to a car.  The cost includes insurance and maintenance so for a monthly fee you cover all car costs except the fuel.  Cost wise it looks like a very poor bet (for the consumer) which is not surprising because these guys are not looking to give cars away.  At $2,000/month it seems like you could do much better in some other way, but for lazy folks who just want to not think about money, I'm sure all these guys will get some activity.

http://money.cnn.com/2018/05/01/technology/car-subscription/index.html

If by "lazy folks" you mean people with far more money than time and/or a company that will pay for their car, then sure.  I don't expect all that many people spending $2k/mo on their car are "lazy."

Volvo does this as well, at a much lower price point. https://www.engadget.com/2018/03/02/volvo-xc40-care-by-volvo-hands-on/
Hyundai is starting something too, and cheaper than Volvo: https://www.hyundaiusa.com/unlimited-plus
Looks like only small section of CA at this point.  Wonder if it would expand.